Clashes between racist family and partner
July 10, 2017 3:00 PM Subscribe
The short version: various members of my family are openly, loudly racist. I still want a relationship with my parents, and for my child to have a relationship. This upsets my partner.
My parents are racist too. But, following an extended falling out over other (but related) stuff, they have agreed and have stuck to not saying racist stuff in front of me and mine and saying nothing political. But, my siblings and various extended family are still at it. (By at it, making comments about the Grenfell disaster survivors, openly hoping that refugees on boats die, blaming E.Europeans for various robberies in the area).
I want my child to have a relationship with my parents, not least because they are unlikely to be alive even by the time he's a teenager. I can't ask my parents to rearrange their lives for the few days we spend with them per year. But I absolutely acknowledge and respect that my partner does not want our child to be around racism. I am very vocal when I hear racist comments from them. My child is not yet old enough to understand these comments, but I feel sure that when he is, he will know that Uncle C is a dickhead. But I also worry about the kid hearing this shit, when he lives in a very diverse community.
So the question: what to do? Strategies to adopt? Should I shield my kid from these people or let him know they exist and they are wrong?
My parents are racist too. But, following an extended falling out over other (but related) stuff, they have agreed and have stuck to not saying racist stuff in front of me and mine and saying nothing political. But, my siblings and various extended family are still at it. (By at it, making comments about the Grenfell disaster survivors, openly hoping that refugees on boats die, blaming E.Europeans for various robberies in the area).
I want my child to have a relationship with my parents, not least because they are unlikely to be alive even by the time he's a teenager. I can't ask my parents to rearrange their lives for the few days we spend with them per year. But I absolutely acknowledge and respect that my partner does not want our child to be around racism. I am very vocal when I hear racist comments from them. My child is not yet old enough to understand these comments, but I feel sure that when he is, he will know that Uncle C is a dickhead. But I also worry about the kid hearing this shit, when he lives in a very diverse community.
So the question: what to do? Strategies to adopt? Should I shield my kid from these people or let him know they exist and they are wrong?
It would be irresponsible to expose your children to these toxic ideas and the better part of you knows this. By allowing your child to be in the presence of people who talk this way you are implicitly telling them that it's an ok way to talk.
Your parents have managed to maintain the expectations and so you should live up to your end of the bargain until they don't (even once, no appologies no second chances). Your garbage siblings have made no such agreement and therefore should not be poisoning your child's mind. No contact ever for any reason is my recommendation.
Your parents get the choice of their children or their grandchildren. This is the only responsible thing to do.
posted by East14thTaco at 3:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
Your parents have managed to maintain the expectations and so you should live up to your end of the bargain until they don't (even once, no appologies no second chances). Your garbage siblings have made no such agreement and therefore should not be poisoning your child's mind. No contact ever for any reason is my recommendation.
Your parents get the choice of their children or their grandchildren. This is the only responsible thing to do.
posted by East14thTaco at 3:24 PM on July 10, 2017 [21 favorites]
My parents removed me from all contact with the members of my family who espoused (and acted on) these kinds of beliefs, including my paternal step grandmother (which meant that I also didn't have contact with my grandfather until just a few years ago). It felt weird at first when my parents told me we couldn't see these relatives any more, and I could tell they were really sad about it, but they affirmed over and over that they just couldn't be in my life. I am so, so grateful that they shielded me from them because I met some of them recently and got a huge day long dose of their violent, vitriolic bigotry and had to move heaven and earth to get me and my parents away from them asap. I am not exaggerating when I say it was one of the most draining and traumatic experiences I've ever had.
Shield your son. Tell him these relatives love him but they can't spend time with him any more. When he asks why, maybe tell him that sometimes people have different viewpoints about things and that it's good to talk it out and think for yourself and that these family members don't agree with that. Or choose another reason. You'll have to find one that fits best, one you feel comfortable and confident repeating again and again. And you will need to set boundaries and stick to them. It is worth it. Please shield your son.
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [42 favorites]
Shield your son. Tell him these relatives love him but they can't spend time with him any more. When he asks why, maybe tell him that sometimes people have different viewpoints about things and that it's good to talk it out and think for yourself and that these family members don't agree with that. Or choose another reason. You'll have to find one that fits best, one you feel comfortable and confident repeating again and again. And you will need to set boundaries and stick to them. It is worth it. Please shield your son.
posted by Hermione Granger at 3:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [42 favorites]
It's great that your parents have dialed it back. I don't understand why the circumstances are such that you can't see them without also seeing more extended family, though. I agree with moonlight on vermont that happily pro-mass-death racism is something that it is not okay to expose your kids to, and if it's impossible for you to see your parents alone then, well, they have made their decision, and it is choosing those people and that environment over a relationship with their grandchildren. Is that sad? Of course, but there is not always a good option for these sorts of things.
posted by brainmouse at 3:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by brainmouse at 3:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [11 favorites]
I mean, your child will eventually encounter racism in the world, because it exists, and that's not something you can permanently shield him from. I don't think merely being exposed to these things is going to damage your child. BUT, your reaction (and the reaction you teach your child to have) is key. If you hear someone saying "gee, I really hope all brown people DIE," what is your response? If you're simply silent, that's teaching your kid that these comments are maybe ok, that it's fine to stay silent if one hears this sort of thing, and maybe even something that it's okay to repeat. If you say, "Wow, that's a horrible thing to say" or "Please don't say awful things like that around me" or "You know I love you Uncle C, but that's really inappropriate and I don't agree" or whatever, at least you're signalling that this is unacceptable, and that sticking up for marginalized groups is the right thing to do even when it's hard, etc. -- hopefully modelling for your son that if/when he encounters this type of thing either in his family, on the playground, or wherever, it's good to stand up for what's right and say something.
posted by rainbowbrite at 3:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
posted by rainbowbrite at 3:28 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
If it's a few days a year, you can meet your parents at Alton Towers or Lego Land or Monkey World or that cheap midlands hotel with the water park or Blackpool or Southend on Sea something for a couple of days. No other relatives needed. If this relationship is a priority, you can all make it happen.
But no, you cannot expose your child to toxic racism.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:33 PM on July 10, 2017 [29 favorites]
But no, you cannot expose your child to toxic racism.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:33 PM on July 10, 2017 [29 favorites]
Some people are openly racist. Sadly, you are related to some of those people. You want to maintain some tenuous relationship, you want your child to have some grandparenting, and maybe you want to teach your child how you respond to racism. I think you can teach your child to stand up for what you believe.
Mom made anti-Semitic comments in front of my son. Me:Mom, we teach Son not to behave that way about Jews Mom: snotty remark about hot how she is old and has earned the right to say what she pleases. Me: Stands up, grabs coat. Mom: Well if you're going to make a big deal. Me: Thanks, Mom, it's important.
A friend of my son's made an anti-gay comment. That got both of them a lecture about Charlie Howard, equal rights, and how words matter.
Your child is going to encounter racism. In this case you have the opportunity to model a response.
posted by theora55 at 3:48 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
Mom made anti-Semitic comments in front of my son. Me:Mom, we teach Son not to behave that way about Jews Mom: snotty remark about hot how she is old and has earned the right to say what she pleases. Me: Stands up, grabs coat. Mom: Well if you're going to make a big deal. Me: Thanks, Mom, it's important.
A friend of my son's made an anti-gay comment. That got both of them a lecture about Charlie Howard, equal rights, and how words matter.
Your child is going to encounter racism. In this case you have the opportunity to model a response.
posted by theora55 at 3:48 PM on July 10, 2017 [13 favorites]
I also have this problem in my family, to a lesser degree. For a child, I look at it as a lesson in what the world and some people in it are really like. It's how you teach kids to be active defenders of justice instead of passive observers. It doesn't mean your kids will necessarily be heroes, but it means when racism comes up, they have a visceral, personal feeling of its reality instead of an abstract concept of its existence. It means they'll be more apt to fight against it, because they know it's real.
This is especially true for kids who will rarely or never be subject to racism themselves. If black folks, Mexicans, Muslims and others have to actually be subject to racist attitudes and behavior, at least in the US, it certainly isn't going to be any more damaging to your child, who I assume is not one of those people, to simply hear the people who spout it. In fact, I think the sight of you and your partner standing up for what's right is a powerful and important lesson. I wouldn't necessarily expect that, but the fact that you already do it is laudable, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't volunteer to spend time with these people, but I also don't think it's necessarily the right thing to do to cut them out.
The other thing I'd say is that people are complex, and often spout racist vomit because of their own personal insecurities. They may be decent people in other ways. The world isn't black and white, as much as some people want to make it so.
posted by cnc at 3:53 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is especially true for kids who will rarely or never be subject to racism themselves. If black folks, Mexicans, Muslims and others have to actually be subject to racist attitudes and behavior, at least in the US, it certainly isn't going to be any more damaging to your child, who I assume is not one of those people, to simply hear the people who spout it. In fact, I think the sight of you and your partner standing up for what's right is a powerful and important lesson. I wouldn't necessarily expect that, but the fact that you already do it is laudable, in my opinion. I certainly wouldn't volunteer to spend time with these people, but I also don't think it's necessarily the right thing to do to cut them out.
The other thing I'd say is that people are complex, and often spout racist vomit because of their own personal insecurities. They may be decent people in other ways. The world isn't black and white, as much as some people want to make it so.
posted by cnc at 3:53 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
I can't ask my parents to rearrange their lives for the few days we spend with them per year.
I mean, yeah? You can? If they only see their grandkids a few days a year, what's a bit of rearranging lives?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:22 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
I mean, yeah? You can? If they only see their grandkids a few days a year, what's a bit of rearranging lives?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:22 PM on July 10, 2017 [18 favorites]
If you see your parents only infrequently, I agree with the comments that say it is reasonable to expect to be able to see your parents without seeing these other relatives, whether via your parents rearranging their time during your visits, you arranging your visits such that it works out, or you inviting your parents to your own area to stay. I do think that, if you love your parents and find value in knowing them despite their bigotry, that it's worth doing work to maintain the relationship, because people are complicated and society is complicated and there is an extent to which it really is important to try to accept each other.
That said, it's something you can talk about with your parents, hopefully. "Look, of course I don't want to do anything as dramatic as cutting off [whoever], but they go around cheering people's deaths, which is way beyond normal. Even if we don't say anything, we're going to be raising your grandkids to value all human life, equally, and the older they get the more your grandkids are going to associate these visits with the vileness that they hear in your house or in your company. And we will raise them in such a way that they truly find the lack of respect for human life vile. We want you in our lives; help us to do it in a way that doesn't bring the kids the sadness or distress when they visit that we adults already have to deal with."
And with respect to your kids, regardless of how well they end up knowing your family, absolutely talk with them a lot about the different things that people believe and why they believe them. It's a necessary part of living in this world, unfortunately, both in order to understand what's going on around us and in order to have the self-awareness to deal with our own fallacy- and prejudice-prone human natures.
posted by trig at 4:23 PM on July 10, 2017
That said, it's something you can talk about with your parents, hopefully. "Look, of course I don't want to do anything as dramatic as cutting off [whoever], but they go around cheering people's deaths, which is way beyond normal. Even if we don't say anything, we're going to be raising your grandkids to value all human life, equally, and the older they get the more your grandkids are going to associate these visits with the vileness that they hear in your house or in your company. And we will raise them in such a way that they truly find the lack of respect for human life vile. We want you in our lives; help us to do it in a way that doesn't bring the kids the sadness or distress when they visit that we adults already have to deal with."
And with respect to your kids, regardless of how well they end up knowing your family, absolutely talk with them a lot about the different things that people believe and why they believe them. It's a necessary part of living in this world, unfortunately, both in order to understand what's going on around us and in order to have the self-awareness to deal with our own fallacy- and prejudice-prone human natures.
posted by trig at 4:23 PM on July 10, 2017
If you stand up for your values, I can't see why your child shouldn't see your relatives. I have never shielded my children from my ugly relatives, and if anything they are more assertively anti-racist and anti-bigoted than I am. They are not in the least shy about giving that foul-mouthed uncle a verbal slap on the hand whenever.
IMO, it can be good for a kid to see that their parents stand up for their values. But you need to talk about it.
posted by mumimor at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
IMO, it can be good for a kid to see that their parents stand up for their values. But you need to talk about it.
posted by mumimor at 4:27 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
My paternal grandfather was super racist. When I was younger, my mom drew a line and refused to let him see me until he stopped dropping the n-word in my presence. My parents made it a point to make sure I got to see more of the country than just my lily-white town, and talked to me about racism. Pa ended up being an example to me of how NOT to be and it really helped me examine my privilege as I got older.
posted by Ruki at 4:37 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 4:37 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
This question resonates with me because while I don't have kids, when I think about having them one of the hardest realizations I came to was that I would have to either severely limit or severely change the way I've interacted with much of my racist family. That is, I've always sort of shrugged and deflected while internally saying "wtf did I just hear". But you can't expect a child to do that, and it's important to teach a child that their parents will speak out when something is wrong. So if you are like me, and you have often just sort of done your best to ignore the racist comments, then I think you will have to make the same choice. If you find it too difficult to imagine or practice speaking out and disagreeing in the moment, then I have to agree with your partner.
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:45 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by nakedmolerats at 4:45 PM on July 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Also, by calling out racism, you are actually working to reduce it.
posted by theora55 at 5:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by theora55 at 5:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can't ask my parents to rearrange their lives for the few days we spend with them per year.
Yes, you absolutely can. And not accepting any hate speech or racism of any sort is a fine price of admission for "grandparent gets to be part of grandchild's life".
You have no obligation to expose your young child to fear and hate, even if your parent are otherwise "nice" people and seem to like their grandchildren. I wonder if they'd want anything to do with grandchild if s/he were not 100% obviously the same race and skin tone as they are...
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:40 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
Yes, you absolutely can. And not accepting any hate speech or racism of any sort is a fine price of admission for "grandparent gets to be part of grandchild's life".
You have no obligation to expose your young child to fear and hate, even if your parent are otherwise "nice" people and seem to like their grandchildren. I wonder if they'd want anything to do with grandchild if s/he were not 100% obviously the same race and skin tone as they are...
posted by SaltySalticid at 5:40 PM on July 10, 2017 [10 favorites]
You can model how to act when someone says or does something racist without subjecting your child to it deliberately, and at the hands of people who are supposed to love and care about your child because they are "family."
posted by rtha at 7:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by rtha at 7:25 PM on July 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
I think it is a perfectly reasonable lesson to teach kids that if people are horrible you don't have to be friends with then and that an appropriate consequence for a person who isn't nice is to not get to spend time with your kids.
posted by daffodil at 8:00 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by daffodil at 8:00 PM on July 10, 2017 [4 favorites]
Sometimes cutting off contact with one relative means cutting off contact with other relatives too. For reasons unrelated to your reasons I have cut off contact with a parent. That required also cutting off contact with a granparent. At first I felt sad about losing that second relationship because grandparent had never actively hurt me, but it turns out that grandparent had passively hurt me by being complicite in my estranged parent's behavior.
If your parents aren't willing to encourage your siblings to behave like decent huname beings in front of your kid, then they are ACTIVELY CONDONING that shitty racist behavior. And if they aren't willing to "rearrange their lives" to see your kid, well, then the decision is already made for you , isn't it?
posted by Brittanie at 8:03 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
If your parents aren't willing to encourage your siblings to behave like decent huname beings in front of your kid, then they are ACTIVELY CONDONING that shitty racist behavior. And if they aren't willing to "rearrange their lives" to see your kid, well, then the decision is already made for you , isn't it?
posted by Brittanie at 8:03 PM on July 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Should I shield my kid from these people or let him know they exist and they are wrong?"
You do both. 50 years ago, my parents told their parents they'd never see me and my brother if they didn't stop saying "nigger." We lived in the South, and it certainly wasn't the only racism we were exposed to. But my parents didn't want us hearing it from authority figures, people we were supposed to respect. We grew up being shielded as much as was practical and being taught that racism was wrong.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:58 AM on July 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
You do both. 50 years ago, my parents told their parents they'd never see me and my brother if they didn't stop saying "nigger." We lived in the South, and it certainly wasn't the only racism we were exposed to. But my parents didn't want us hearing it from authority figures, people we were supposed to respect. We grew up being shielded as much as was practical and being taught that racism was wrong.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:58 AM on July 11, 2017 [3 favorites]
Out of curiosity, what do you want your children to get out of their relationship with their grandparents (or other relatives)? Is there some amazing part of them that you feel that your child will miss out on? Do they have some amazing personality traits, or do some amazing work? Do they have an interesting past, or something that you want them to pass down and share?
If there isn't anything like that and the answer is 'just because they're going to die eventually' then why risk it? Is it worth further alienating your partner? Is it worth your child growing up and thinking that it's good that some people die just because of their skin colour?
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 8:43 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
If there isn't anything like that and the answer is 'just because they're going to die eventually' then why risk it? Is it worth further alienating your partner? Is it worth your child growing up and thinking that it's good that some people die just because of their skin colour?
posted by Ms. Moonlight at 8:43 AM on July 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
They sound putrid. As others have mentioned you can totally ask your parents to re-arrange their schedule. Being vocal about racism is one thing but by continuing to be in their presence you are "tolerating" it imo.
Another thing I was wondering is whether or not your partner is part of a marginalized group. If they are and you continue to disregard their feelings I would consider that to be even worse.
posted by mokeydraws at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Another thing I was wondering is whether or not your partner is part of a marginalized group. If they are and you continue to disregard their feelings I would consider that to be even worse.
posted by mokeydraws at 9:57 AM on July 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
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posted by moonlight on vermont at 3:11 PM on July 10, 2017 [107 favorites]