How to Not Look Back
July 6, 2017 7:04 AM Subscribe
I spent my 20s alone and now find myself soon to be married. How do I learn to give up old ambitions and embrace the next chapter of my life?
I look forward to getting married next year and dedicating the next decades of my life to raising a family and being the best mother and wife I can possibly be. Yet I feel nervous about this next chapter of my life because it feels like a point of no return. Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities. How do I make peace with it?
Growing up, I had big dreams and worked very hard to achieve them. I'm currently 30 and although I'm financially self-sufficient, I am not the big success everyone thought I would become at this age. And I'm okay with it. I'm deeply grateful to have met and commit myself to the love of my life, but this next step also inevitably means closing the door on many paths, such dedicating myself to my art, obtaining a PhD in Anthropology, starting an entrepreneurial venture in Southeast Asia, etc. -- endeavors that I thought I wanted to pursue at some point during my lifetime.
I understand it's totally feasible to "do it all" as long as I'm willing to put in the work and make some compromises, but I already know I don't want to go down that path and risk spreading myself too thin.
I'm hoping that kind strangers can offer some insight to my situation.
Thank you very much for your time.
I look forward to getting married next year and dedicating the next decades of my life to raising a family and being the best mother and wife I can possibly be. Yet I feel nervous about this next chapter of my life because it feels like a point of no return. Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities. How do I make peace with it?
Growing up, I had big dreams and worked very hard to achieve them. I'm currently 30 and although I'm financially self-sufficient, I am not the big success everyone thought I would become at this age. And I'm okay with it. I'm deeply grateful to have met and commit myself to the love of my life, but this next step also inevitably means closing the door on many paths, such dedicating myself to my art, obtaining a PhD in Anthropology, starting an entrepreneurial venture in Southeast Asia, etc. -- endeavors that I thought I wanted to pursue at some point during my lifetime.
I understand it's totally feasible to "do it all" as long as I'm willing to put in the work and make some compromises, but I already know I don't want to go down that path and risk spreading myself too thin.
I'm hoping that kind strangers can offer some insight to my situation.
Thank you very much for your time.
Whoa, nelly. Slow down!
Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities.
This is extreme. It shouldn't be like this. Ask yourself why you feel this way.
Getting married and having children doesn't erase everything you are. It ADDS to you. You will still be a [whatever your chosen profession is], you will still be an artist, you'll still be a friend, a traveler, whatever else you identify as. It's great to want to be a good wife and mother TOO, but you can be those things without losing yourself. Yes, you might have to adjust some dreams as you prioritize other things. But don't enter into marriage assuming the worst.
Your partner should help you be a better version of yourself, not a different one. Does s/he know of your goals and support them? Do you know theirs? You should be working together to see how you can accomplish them! This is a partnership now, and it's awesome!
I can tell you from experience that it's important for your kids see you as a whole person with interests, goals, and accomplishments outside of kids and marriage. It's good for THEM.
posted by yawper at 7:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [49 favorites]
Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities.
This is extreme. It shouldn't be like this. Ask yourself why you feel this way.
Getting married and having children doesn't erase everything you are. It ADDS to you. You will still be a [whatever your chosen profession is], you will still be an artist, you'll still be a friend, a traveler, whatever else you identify as. It's great to want to be a good wife and mother TOO, but you can be those things without losing yourself. Yes, you might have to adjust some dreams as you prioritize other things. But don't enter into marriage assuming the worst.
Your partner should help you be a better version of yourself, not a different one. Does s/he know of your goals and support them? Do you know theirs? You should be working together to see how you can accomplish them! This is a partnership now, and it's awesome!
I can tell you from experience that it's important for your kids see you as a whole person with interests, goals, and accomplishments outside of kids and marriage. It's good for THEM.
posted by yawper at 7:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [49 favorites]
I look forward to getting married next year and dedicating the next decades of my life to raising a family and being the best mother and wife I can possibly be. Yet I feel nervous about this next chapter of my life because it feels like a point of no return
It's not. The best part is that you don't have to make yourself believe this, or make yourself believe on the other hand that you won't miss your dreams, or that this is a good trade. because in five or ten years, if you feel differently, Ph.D. programs will still be there. It's completely fine to believe this is a point of no return, because belief doesn't make it true: you are not falling off a cliff. marriage will not damage you irreparably on impact. you will be busy and tired for a long time, and then you will be done and free to dream again.
The usual tactic people take with women in your position is to tell them that not only is it not incompatible with family-raising to have your own intellectual and creative life and interests, just like a regular adult person, it is compulsory -- you owe it to your imaginary children! they will say, you owe it to your marriage and your family to be all you can be. this works as a guilt trip on women who feel that sacrifice is the only acceptable excuse for doing anything, but even if it works it is offensive and belittling. so I do not say that. however, please give things up, including dreams, because like you say, you really don't want to and expect to be too busy and tired for a few years. not because getting a degree and getting married are "having it all" and unrealistic ( and seriously? there are a lot of things you could be doing in the world that aren't on your abandon list. with respect to wives, mothers, artists, and scholars, this is not all of them. it really doesn't come close. an interest + a few projects + a nuclear family is such a modest want.)
anyway the way to not dwell on what you give up is to have something so compelling to look at in the here-and-now that you have no time for anything else because you're so fascinated with the new thing you're doing. you shouldn't have to force this. the worst way to not dwell on what you're losing is to force yourself to believe a lie (that having a creative life within a family is an untenable risk). go towards, not away. let the things you can't do right now take care of themselves. you can live your life in any sequence you want. you want the next 20 years to be child-raising years, you can do that, why not. go start a venture in SE Asia afterwards, when you're even tougher. 20 years isn't your whole life, you'll have another transition after that's over, and much sooner if you want to.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:49 AM on July 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities. How do I make peace with it?
I found myself reading this question several times over because I'm just so confused by this statement.
There are many ways to have a marriage, and the model you've sketched out here is definitely not the only one. You can 100% be a dedicated spouse and parent AND go to grad school AND make art AND start a business. If anything, being in a secure and committed relationship makes these other pursuits easier because you have a cheerleader, a sounding board, a person in your corner etc.
So my question is why do you have these expectations of your marriage? Where is it coming from? Is this version of marriage - where it seems like the burden of being a '100% dedicated' wife and mother falls squarely on you, leaving no room for anything else - something that both you and your soon to be spouse want? Or is it an assumption made by one or both of you that you're just working with? Have you spoken to your soon to be spouse about your feelings? What are your shared goals as a married couple? Is your spouse pressuring you into a model of marriage that you're not comfortable with?
You only get one life. Go ahead and spread yourself thin.
posted by nerdfish at 7:53 AM on July 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
I found myself reading this question several times over because I'm just so confused by this statement.
There are many ways to have a marriage, and the model you've sketched out here is definitely not the only one. You can 100% be a dedicated spouse and parent AND go to grad school AND make art AND start a business. If anything, being in a secure and committed relationship makes these other pursuits easier because you have a cheerleader, a sounding board, a person in your corner etc.
So my question is why do you have these expectations of your marriage? Where is it coming from? Is this version of marriage - where it seems like the burden of being a '100% dedicated' wife and mother falls squarely on you, leaving no room for anything else - something that both you and your soon to be spouse want? Or is it an assumption made by one or both of you that you're just working with? Have you spoken to your soon to be spouse about your feelings? What are your shared goals as a married couple? Is your spouse pressuring you into a model of marriage that you're not comfortable with?
You only get one life. Go ahead and spread yourself thin.
posted by nerdfish at 7:53 AM on July 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
So, I'm a woman who is about the same age as you and has a lot of aspirations. I haven't gotten married yet, and I'm on the fence about kids right now, so I'm not sure how helpful this will be, but I'm wondering what you and your partner have discussed about this/how you came to the understanding that you would be the primary caregiver/give up your other aspirations.
Here's the thing: it's totally okay to give up goals and dreams when those dreams change. Maybe you've decided the kind of parent that you want to be is not compatible with starting a company in SE Asia or whatever, and that's totally fair.
BUT. I think when most people describe this anxiety about giving up dreams after getting married (which a lot of people feel, I think), they do not describe their sacrifices in a way that is as extreme as you do. Part of what's great about being a partner is that you can help each other out with your dreams, and also that you get to develop some new dreams together.
So, I think to fully answer this question, it would be really, really, REALLY helpful to hear about your partner's take on this/why you think you have to give up all (not just some) of your aspirations. Thank you so much, OP.
posted by superlibby at 7:59 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Here's the thing: it's totally okay to give up goals and dreams when those dreams change. Maybe you've decided the kind of parent that you want to be is not compatible with starting a company in SE Asia or whatever, and that's totally fair.
BUT. I think when most people describe this anxiety about giving up dreams after getting married (which a lot of people feel, I think), they do not describe their sacrifices in a way that is as extreme as you do. Part of what's great about being a partner is that you can help each other out with your dreams, and also that you get to develop some new dreams together.
So, I think to fully answer this question, it would be really, really, REALLY helpful to hear about your partner's take on this/why you think you have to give up all (not just some) of your aspirations. Thank you so much, OP.
posted by superlibby at 7:59 AM on July 6, 2017 [10 favorites]
Why isn't the marriage something that helps you create your existing dreams? What are you getting out of the marriage?
I ask because I put some dreams on hold for a relationship, and thought I could change my focus, and a decade later (after almost a decade in the relationship before that), it's become an issue: I'm feeling worn out and side-tracked from life.
Relationships should serve those in them, not vice-versa. If this relationship isn't serving your dreams and goals and passions, what is it serving?
posted by straw at 8:03 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
I ask because I put some dreams on hold for a relationship, and thought I could change my focus, and a decade later (after almost a decade in the relationship before that), it's become an issue: I'm feeling worn out and side-tracked from life.
Relationships should serve those in them, not vice-versa. If this relationship isn't serving your dreams and goals and passions, what is it serving?
posted by straw at 8:03 AM on July 6, 2017 [11 favorites]
WHAT.
Hemingway, Picasso, Miró - what do these notoriously dedicated artists have in common? They have children! (Yes Hemingway said the pram in the hall was death to art...a quote which haunts me but I have found not to be true.)
Consider why it is that you think women cannot have kids and be great artists. I would suggest that's as antiquated as thinking women can't be great artists, period.
Please read this piece. Money quote: "Many of the world’s highest-grossing women artists are mothers, including Julie Mehretu, Marlene Dumas, Cecily Brown, and Chen Peiqiu."
I'm married and have kids and yes, have made sacrifices of time and focus to that but being with my husband makes me more capable of being a writer. He is fully behind me. And we are also about to embark on his equivalent of the PhD overseas, and that is helping to give me space (details are not public yet but MeMail me if you want them). I will share with you that with the exception of maybe a couple of years of intense one-on-one parenting when they are babies, my kids actually are pushing me to get back to my art because - they are authentic and demand authenticity in their own way. Watching them dream returns me to mine.
What is it about being a great mother do you think is incompatible with art? Do you think all great mothers stay home with their kids? That can be an assumption that can be wrong*, or there are interesting ways to flex time.
What derailed me was myself, and fears around money, things that certainly are impacted by kids but...not that much.
Now, if you're saying you don't want to do that any more, that's different. But life is long. You can say well, right now I don't want to. And then you can change your mind.
*I don't want to turn this into a rant but again you can MeMail me...my experience in finding a great Montessori was that my kids were experiencing amazing richness there and "being a great mum" meant discovering the amazing! world of high-quality care for them, not limiting them to, well, me. (They also get me!)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
Hemingway, Picasso, Miró - what do these notoriously dedicated artists have in common? They have children! (Yes Hemingway said the pram in the hall was death to art...a quote which haunts me but I have found not to be true.)
Consider why it is that you think women cannot have kids and be great artists. I would suggest that's as antiquated as thinking women can't be great artists, period.
Please read this piece. Money quote: "Many of the world’s highest-grossing women artists are mothers, including Julie Mehretu, Marlene Dumas, Cecily Brown, and Chen Peiqiu."
I'm married and have kids and yes, have made sacrifices of time and focus to that but being with my husband makes me more capable of being a writer. He is fully behind me. And we are also about to embark on his equivalent of the PhD overseas, and that is helping to give me space (details are not public yet but MeMail me if you want them). I will share with you that with the exception of maybe a couple of years of intense one-on-one parenting when they are babies, my kids actually are pushing me to get back to my art because - they are authentic and demand authenticity in their own way. Watching them dream returns me to mine.
What is it about being a great mother do you think is incompatible with art? Do you think all great mothers stay home with their kids? That can be an assumption that can be wrong*, or there are interesting ways to flex time.
What derailed me was myself, and fears around money, things that certainly are impacted by kids but...not that much.
Now, if you're saying you don't want to do that any more, that's different. But life is long. You can say well, right now I don't want to. And then you can change your mind.
*I don't want to turn this into a rant but again you can MeMail me...my experience in finding a great Montessori was that my kids were experiencing amazing richness there and "being a great mum" meant discovering the amazing! world of high-quality care for them, not limiting them to, well, me. (They also get me!)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [12 favorites]
P.S. Part of my day job used to be interviewing women at midlife - high achievers, entrepreneurs, regular old people, a story a week for like 5 years and believe me, it is hugely possible to be a great parent and to chase your dreams...sometimes you just bring your kids along. I have also worked with incredibly successful women, know their kids, and it has been great. And I kind of count myself among them even as I personally readjust my goal posts (joyfully to ramp up some things and wind down others.)
Do not amputate your dreams before you even have a scratch!
If you do get into a situation where you are crying on the tarmac about to collapse from overwork, you will know it and that is a good time to adjust your expectations. That's okay!
But for the love of everything blissful, why are you deciding this so far in advance? What is really going on? What conversations are you having and with whom?
I highly recommend you look for, and seek out, women you admire who are both artists and parents (or third world entrepreneurs, or PhD candidates, or whatever) and talk to them about how they feel about things - different ones at different stages. I think you will find things ebb and flow in ways they did not predict but...cutting off possibilities wholesale is not something you need to accept and grieve in advance. I strongly encourage you not to.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:16 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Do not amputate your dreams before you even have a scratch!
If you do get into a situation where you are crying on the tarmac about to collapse from overwork, you will know it and that is a good time to adjust your expectations. That's okay!
But for the love of everything blissful, why are you deciding this so far in advance? What is really going on? What conversations are you having and with whom?
I highly recommend you look for, and seek out, women you admire who are both artists and parents (or third world entrepreneurs, or PhD candidates, or whatever) and talk to them about how they feel about things - different ones at different stages. I think you will find things ebb and flow in ways they did not predict but...cutting off possibilities wholesale is not something you need to accept and grieve in advance. I strongly encourage you not to.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:16 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
Other people have good points, but the thing that jumps out at me is that you're making some big grass-is-greener assumptions.
Options come and go. Paths close. Academic trends change, often in the wake of government/geopolitical shifts. Entirely new disciplines emerge. You have no control over this.
And there is never a point where you get to choose from all the options, though it often feels like it early in your career. Deciding to pursue sub-discipline A will get you shunned by the B-ists. Working with X population will mean being unqualified to work with Y. That's just life.
And even the smallest choices you make in your life OR things that happen in your life open some doors and close others. The city you live in and whether you have things keeping you from leaving. A parent's declining health. Getting a dog. Your changing/strengthening values meaning you absolutely will not do certain kinds of work or live in some places or work with certain people.
I disagree that you can "have it all" in the sense of keeping every single option open to you always. Can you have a happy family and good career and rewarding hobby and meaningful good works? Yeah, people do that. Can you be both a fireman and a policeman? Mostly no.
You will always have paths not taken, even if you opt for the spinster life. There will always be the things you didn't do because you were doing the other thing. You will always look back, it doesn't matter whether you have kids. This is a function of getting older and more experienced, and there's no way to avoid it.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
Options come and go. Paths close. Academic trends change, often in the wake of government/geopolitical shifts. Entirely new disciplines emerge. You have no control over this.
And there is never a point where you get to choose from all the options, though it often feels like it early in your career. Deciding to pursue sub-discipline A will get you shunned by the B-ists. Working with X population will mean being unqualified to work with Y. That's just life.
And even the smallest choices you make in your life OR things that happen in your life open some doors and close others. The city you live in and whether you have things keeping you from leaving. A parent's declining health. Getting a dog. Your changing/strengthening values meaning you absolutely will not do certain kinds of work or live in some places or work with certain people.
I disagree that you can "have it all" in the sense of keeping every single option open to you always. Can you have a happy family and good career and rewarding hobby and meaningful good works? Yeah, people do that. Can you be both a fireman and a policeman? Mostly no.
You will always have paths not taken, even if you opt for the spinster life. There will always be the things you didn't do because you were doing the other thing. You will always look back, it doesn't matter whether you have kids. This is a function of getting older and more experienced, and there's no way to avoid it.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:25 AM on July 6, 2017 [9 favorites]
I'm in a long-term, committed partnership with a man [we're not married, but it's a marriage-like commitment] and right now I'm in Hong Kong doing fieldwork for a month. Then I'll go to Singapore, where I'll be a writer-in-residence at a university this fall. My partner is coming to visit me in September, then again over the Christmas holidays. I'm a devoted partner--crazy about him, gladly willing to make compromises for the sake of our relationship--and sharing a life with him has helped me hone my dreams. I don't fantasize about orthogonal, unserious dreams anymore because, for example, while it would be fun to apply for those low-wage teaching jobs in the Cook Islands [or whatever] advertised every so often, I know that it's not something I'm passionate enough about to make him uproot to the Cook Islands over. But would I go deckhand on a sailboat again without him next summer? Hell yes. Would he go on a cross-country bicycle trip without me? I hope not, but only because I'd want to come. I'm not trying to brag here, although maybe inadvertently I am. But look, a good partnership should reinforce and support the things you love and value in yourself. It means that when I work late, or have a lot on my plate, there's a hot dinner waiting for me when I get home after 10PM. What I mean is that he makes it easier for me to live the life I want (or have to) to live right then. And in return I do things that make it easier for him to follow his dreams, too. Often it's banal, like doing dishes after my late-night dinner night and grinding coffee in advance even though I don't make coffee in the mornings. But it also means valuing his dreams just as much as he values mine--and expecting he'll do me the same honor. That I trust him to act in our best interests, and sometimes in my best interest is what makes me certain about this relationship.
posted by tapir-whorf at 8:26 AM on July 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
posted by tapir-whorf at 8:26 AM on July 6, 2017 [16 favorites]
Is this version of marriage - where it seems like the burden of being a '100% dedicated' wife and mother falls squarely on you, leaving no room for anything else - something that both you and your soon to be spouse want? Or is it an assumption made by one or both of you that you're just working with? Have you spoken to your soon to be spouse about your feelings? What are your shared goals as a married couple? Is your spouse pressuring you into a model of marriage that you're not comfortable with?
Seriously, is it your spouse who is imposing these expectations of self-immolation in the form of a marriage? Because, if so, it is not worth it. He will not repay you for it. I don't care who he is, what he does, how much you love him, how much he says he loves you. He ultimately views your marriage as a means of bringing in staff.
It's one thing to face together and work out the compromises of an adult life, where, it's true, it's nearly impossible to give yourself 100% to anything, and some commitments are incompatible with others. Some jobs are so demanding (or society has structured them so) that they don't leave room for much else unless there is a lot of money available to fill in the gaps. But ultimately marriage is supposed to expand your life, not contract it. Why are you looking at it as the end of most everything you value? Is this catastrophizing in the face of anxiety about a big change (understandable! and I'm sure many people here will address that), or is it your brain throwing red flag after red flag?
posted by praemunire at 8:26 AM on July 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
Seriously, is it your spouse who is imposing these expectations of self-immolation in the form of a marriage? Because, if so, it is not worth it. He will not repay you for it. I don't care who he is, what he does, how much you love him, how much he says he loves you. He ultimately views your marriage as a means of bringing in staff.
It's one thing to face together and work out the compromises of an adult life, where, it's true, it's nearly impossible to give yourself 100% to anything, and some commitments are incompatible with others. Some jobs are so demanding (or society has structured them so) that they don't leave room for much else unless there is a lot of money available to fill in the gaps. But ultimately marriage is supposed to expand your life, not contract it. Why are you looking at it as the end of most everything you value? Is this catastrophizing in the face of anxiety about a big change (understandable! and I'm sure many people here will address that), or is it your brain throwing red flag after red flag?
posted by praemunire at 8:26 AM on July 6, 2017 [27 favorites]
Also I know four or five women in their forties who've had babies in the past year. Medical technology being what it is today, your biological clock doesn't expire at thirty-four. Go do that PhD; you've still got time!
posted by tapir-whorf at 8:28 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by tapir-whorf at 8:28 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Go do that PhD; you've still got time!
In addition to this brilliant comment, I know women who did their PhDs while having babies and with partner support, it was actually a great combination - busy-but-flexible-time can be great with babes and tots, especially if there is an inexpensive hippy preschool near the academic library, as there often is. Okay I will stop commenting all over this thread but I feel like there is a big disconnect here in your thinking between the reality I have experienced hanging out with women who do not accept these limitations, and the cultural discourse which imposes these limitations because...patriarchal and late-capitalist nonsense.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:32 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
In addition to this brilliant comment, I know women who did their PhDs while having babies and with partner support, it was actually a great combination - busy-but-flexible-time can be great with babes and tots, especially if there is an inexpensive hippy preschool near the academic library, as there often is. Okay I will stop commenting all over this thread but I feel like there is a big disconnect here in your thinking between the reality I have experienced hanging out with women who do not accept these limitations, and the cultural discourse which imposes these limitations because...patriarchal and late-capitalist nonsense.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:32 AM on July 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
I actually finished my PhD after I got married, and really could only have done so because my husband was amazingly supportive and gave me the option to take time off from work to write my dissertation. Also, my husband saw, in the depths of writing, that I was starting to lose it and I wasn't in good emotional place because I was spending too much time alone and in my head. So he got me a voucher for a pottery class, an art form I'd given up on decades ago, so I could do something creative to have a little space from the dissertation.
Your spouse should be constantly backing any play you want to make to fulfill yourself and make you a better you. I'll echo what everyone else is saying and repeat it, Marriage does not mean giving up every career or personal goal. Women all over the world have continued to work, create, and live amazing lives while married and as mothers. You can do it, you just have to embrace it.
posted by teleri025 at 8:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
Your spouse should be constantly backing any play you want to make to fulfill yourself and make you a better you. I'll echo what everyone else is saying and repeat it, Marriage does not mean giving up every career or personal goal. Women all over the world have continued to work, create, and live amazing lives while married and as mothers. You can do it, you just have to embrace it.
posted by teleri025 at 8:42 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
It seems like you're making multiple faulty assumptions here:
posted by Funeral march of an old jawbone at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
- Getting married implicitly means having kids whether or not you actually want them (Wrong! You don't have to have kids, despite relentless societal pressure to do so. If you think you might not want kids, though, you need to discuss that with your partner NOW, before you're married.)
- Having kids implicitly means giving up all other aspects of your identity forever (Wrong! It doesn't, although you will have to rearrange your priorities when your kids are young.)
- Getting married means that you take on all of the emotional labor in the relationship to be "the best mother and wife I can possibly be". (Wrong! Getting married should not be like this! You and your spouse should be in it together, 50/50.)
- Getting married means that your personal identity and passions must now be discarded unless they happen to overlap with your spouse's. (Wrong! In a healthy marriage, spouses will support and encourage the pursuit of each others' wildly differing interests even if they don't want to participate themselves.)
posted by Funeral march of an old jawbone at 8:58 AM on July 6, 2017 [21 favorites]
Do you think your future husband is having the same anxieties about giving up his dreams to be the very best husband and father he can be? I'm guessing no. Ask yourself why.
Marry a partner who is as committed to your growth, happiness, and success as they are to their own. A true partner.
Maybe go read the emotional labor thread to see if you both are in a balanced situation with regard to how much each of you put in and get out of the relationship. Your question leads me to believe that you're expecting to have to give up way too much.
posted by quince at 10:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
Marry a partner who is as committed to your growth, happiness, and success as they are to their own. A true partner.
Maybe go read the emotional labor thread to see if you both are in a balanced situation with regard to how much each of you put in and get out of the relationship. Your question leads me to believe that you're expecting to have to give up way too much.
posted by quince at 10:08 AM on July 6, 2017 [20 favorites]
I disagree that a few women in their 40s having babies means you should put it off. Even the success rates for assisted reproductive technology are not guarantees and they are far lower at that age. The real question isn't whether someone else did but whether you can, and everyone is different. If kids are important get fertility testing and make your decision with more information. You can still get a phD with kids! That said I do understand that family can change your priorities or realistic possibilities from being entirety focused on what's fun or exciting for you and towards what will actually improve your life/prospects. A lot of messages in our culture are really against this, pro-individualism, etc, so it takes some strength to resist that thinking. I personally will not be getting another degree that is not professional- it wouldn't make sense financially to chase something very unlikely and I'm not just making those decisions for myself anymore. I guess it is sad on some level and maybe in my earlier life I could have done it but it's also saving me from myself a little too because the chances of it working out in a real, long term sustainable way weren't any better. I know my spouse also is giving things up to do the job he does- not always a fun one, but the best one he could get to support us- so I don't think this is solely a political or feminist issue. Often framing it that way makes it harder, not easier to make choices because it becomes less about what feels right for you and more about being in line with dogmas. The people I know who have this vaunted level of freedom are either incredibly rich and not worried about consequences, in very lucky/unusual positions, or dead broke/dealing with serious debt because they didn't think it through.
I think it's important you keep creating and thinking about dreams, but it's ok for the shape of these things to change by thinking about how it affects and fits with others.
posted by decathexis at 10:29 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think it's important you keep creating and thinking about dreams, but it's ok for the shape of these things to change by thinking about how it affects and fits with others.
posted by decathexis at 10:29 AM on July 6, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is not what marriage has to look like. At all.
Marriage can be -- should be -- a partnership that makes both your lives bigger.
If that doesn't describe this relationship, I will gently suggest that the hesitation you're feeling doesnt have to do with marriage itself.
There are lots of great suggestions in this thread. You should really take them.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:43 AM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Marriage can be -- should be -- a partnership that makes both your lives bigger.
If that doesn't describe this relationship, I will gently suggest that the hesitation you're feeling doesnt have to do with marriage itself.
There are lots of great suggestions in this thread. You should really take them.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:43 AM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
This question makes me really sad! I can't quite tell if you really think you CAN'T do all these cool things plus be married, or if you legitimately don't WANT to do them anymore and have decided to go in a different direction, but either way, I would think about what, now, is your dream outside of your relationship/family. Because it is 100% possible and will make your life richer and better to have something you LOVE outside the four walls of your home. I'm a professor and am married with a baby on the way; I have numerous friends who had babies while in grad school. I have two friends (married to each other) who decided they had always wanted to teach overseas, and decided to go teach/work/live in Asia with their little kids -- they see it as an awesome way for their children to learn about another culture, learn another language, experience the world from a totally different vantage point than your average American kid, etc. -- and it has totally worked for them. Now, everyone has different dreams/goals -- I personally don't particularly want to live overseas at all, much less with little kids -- but the point is that whatever your dream is does not HAVE to be incompatible with marriage and children. Instead it can be about having support from a partner to go out and go after those dreams! I'm honestly not sure I would have been as successful in my career without my spouse to support me -- I tend to be a total ball of anxiety and my husband is amazing at helping me calm down and give me perspective (plus when I'm going through a particularly hellish period at work, I can rely on him to cook me dinner and keep the clothes clean -- of course, I return the favor when the situation is reversed!)
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:58 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by rainbowbrite at 10:58 AM on July 6, 2017 [3 favorites]
This is not what marriage has to look like. At all.
True, but some marriages may look like that if the partner is a control freak and selfish to boot.
Some future parents build their own bear traps and stick their heads in them if they took vows as children to never be like their own parents. (Horrible parents exist, but it helps to let go of the belief that every mother should always be delighted to serve her children every minute of the day. As adults we need to make some shift to see our parents as broken people rather than as broken care dispensing systems. /soapbox)
I also like this book by Anne Marie Slaughter, if you want an academic look at the obstacles to "having it all".
posted by puddledork at 11:11 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
True, but some marriages may look like that if the partner is a control freak and selfish to boot.
Some future parents build their own bear traps and stick their heads in them if they took vows as children to never be like their own parents. (Horrible parents exist, but it helps to let go of the belief that every mother should always be delighted to serve her children every minute of the day. As adults we need to make some shift to see our parents as broken people rather than as broken care dispensing systems. /soapbox)
I also like this book by Anne Marie Slaughter, if you want an academic look at the obstacles to "having it all".
posted by puddledork at 11:11 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I came in here expecting to see you worrying about not getting to date and sleep with other people, which is what most people accept as a standard "path closed" at marriage. Not giving up all hope of a future, which sounds more like you're terminally ill.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:08 PM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 12:08 PM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I didn't read every comment, but I really wanted to say that while kids ARE all-consuming for a bit, they don't stay that way. Basically, the first five years of the lives of your kids are going to take a lot of energy, but as time passes you find that you get more and more time and more and more, like, self-actualization back. I know that people make it sound like OMG KIDS MAKE EVERYTHING IMPOSSIBLE, but what I'm learning is that they just make things hard while they're tiny (and require constant help/supervision) and then it eases off in stages as they age.
Now, that's the kind of "dedication to family" that I think about. I don't know, maybe you mean something different, but in my experience it's entirely possible to have ambitions and also have a family.
posted by hought20 at 12:37 PM on July 6, 2017
Now, that's the kind of "dedication to family" that I think about. I don't know, maybe you mean something different, but in my experience it's entirely possible to have ambitions and also have a family.
posted by hought20 at 12:37 PM on July 6, 2017
When I was little, I never got the sense my mother enjoyed anything. She was at home all day doing chores but didn't seem to have a life outside of it. I wish she had kept her job or did a PhD or started a business or took up an instrument or something because to this day, we have a weirdly distant relationship. Ironically, we'd probably be closer if she'd spent less time with me.
posted by airmail at 5:21 PM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by airmail at 5:21 PM on July 6, 2017 [6 favorites]
Also, are you prone to all-or-nothing thinking? (I sure am). So if being a mother will make it hard for you to be the best anthropologist in the world, then you'd rather just not do anthropology altogether. But what does it even mean to be the best anthropologist in the world? The most we hope for, really, is to make solid contributions to our field. Which is totally possible for an academic with children!
posted by airmail at 5:50 PM on July 6, 2017
posted by airmail at 5:50 PM on July 6, 2017
This is not what marriage has to look like. At all.
I don't want to project, but I wonder if you're carrying around these assumptions about how your married life will look because your partner either can't or won't relate to the things you find important? Sometimes it's not always about an explicitly controlling partner - there are women who feel it's necessary to give up on their dreams to keep the peace if their partner a lot of trouble knowing how and why to support them. Even a partner who says that they prefer an egalitarian relationship and honestly believes that may have difficulties that prevent them from putting their principles into practice. Is any of this sounding familiar?
Like you (I'm around your age), I thought that a long-term relationship meant that I'd need to give up my autonomy over self-care, personal interests, and career goals because it reduced friction with an SO who had trouble with empathy and initiative. Sometimes I still think that's a necessary trade-off, but then I look around at our married contemporaries and older mentors who've done a lot of things outside the domestic sphere - started and completed PhDs, launched their own companies, stayed involved in immersive hobbies. They might not "have it all", but they have individual lives that their partners respect, and vice versa. What they all have in common are spouses who have healthy social skills, are capable of taking the initiative to help meet others' needs, and respect others' goals.
Borrowing tapir-whorf's words above, there's a lot you can achieve in a relationship when both partners are great at serving shared interests and are also good at serving the other's individual needs. That's a reasonable bare minimum to accept.
*I'm being heteronormative here, apologies.
posted by blerghamot at 5:59 PM on July 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
I don't want to project, but I wonder if you're carrying around these assumptions about how your married life will look because your partner either can't or won't relate to the things you find important? Sometimes it's not always about an explicitly controlling partner - there are women who feel it's necessary to give up on their dreams to keep the peace if their partner a lot of trouble knowing how and why to support them. Even a partner who says that they prefer an egalitarian relationship and honestly believes that may have difficulties that prevent them from putting their principles into practice. Is any of this sounding familiar?
Like you (I'm around your age), I thought that a long-term relationship meant that I'd need to give up my autonomy over self-care, personal interests, and career goals because it reduced friction with an SO who had trouble with empathy and initiative. Sometimes I still think that's a necessary trade-off, but then I look around at our married contemporaries and older mentors who've done a lot of things outside the domestic sphere - started and completed PhDs, launched their own companies, stayed involved in immersive hobbies. They might not "have it all", but they have individual lives that their partners respect, and vice versa. What they all have in common are spouses who have healthy social skills, are capable of taking the initiative to help meet others' needs, and respect others' goals.
Borrowing tapir-whorf's words above, there's a lot you can achieve in a relationship when both partners are great at serving shared interests and are also good at serving the other's individual needs. That's a reasonable bare minimum to accept.
*I'm being heteronormative here, apologies.
posted by blerghamot at 5:59 PM on July 6, 2017 [7 favorites]
You need to do a lot of soul searching on why you feel marriage represents a full disregard of everything you are now and everything you want to be. It is really worrying to me that that you're even considering marriage if that is what you think it entails. "Being the best mother and wife I can be" shouldn't be in direct opposition of your goals and aspirations and should never require having zero life and interests outside of that, and I can pretty much guarantee you that you will never feel happy or satisfied in that life, nor will your children benefit from it.
And just because you don't seem to be aware of this... a marriage should be a PARTNERSHIP. It should ADD to your life, not take things from it.
What you're describing is seriously fucked up.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
And just because you don't seem to be aware of this... a marriage should be a PARTNERSHIP. It should ADD to your life, not take things from it.
What you're describing is seriously fucked up.
posted by PuppetMcSockerson at 9:32 AM on July 7, 2017 [1 favorite]
Others have covered one interpretation of your fears. I'm going to look more at another interpretation: Sometimes there are times in our lives when we have to give up the dreams we had as children, to recognize that those are dreams we don't really want any more or perhaps never wanted in their entirety. Times to find the motivations that drove those dreams and make them more achievable in our actual lives.
What do you think of when you think of those dreams? What is it about them that appeals to you? Do you imagine your current concerns going away? The approval of others and finally knowing you're a "success"? The joy of creating a work of art? People admiring you for being daring, brave, cool?
I ask because there are fantasies people build of escape and transformation, of leaving it all behind to move to (some other land, where we will be different people) or of abandoning our current jobs and ties to become purely the Artist or Archaeologist or Entrepreneur or some other type of person whose life is not at all like our current ones. If this is the way you have those dreams constructed in your mind then there *is* a conflict. Signing on to a plan for your life - I will marry this person, we will have children, and they will be hopefully my spouse and definitely my children for the rest of my life - can make us look at our mortality, at the fact that we only get to be one person in our lives (even though that one person can do so many things one after another). You can still get that PhD - but it won't be the whole lifestyle you envisioned when you were imagining doing it as a single person.
There are also needs we have to pursue our passions and our dreams. And those you should *not* give up. Some questions for you to think of there: What is your art? Would you be happier to have a space to do some of it? What is the entrepreneurial venture you wanted to start? Would you enjoy having some involvement in that field? What about archaeology as a field attracts you? Is that realistic to the field, and can you get a taste of it through courses or travel or reading independently? What do you want to *do*? You'll have some spare time in among raising kids, and you'd best find some things to do with it that you'll be satisfied and energized from.
posted by Lady Li at 12:28 AM on July 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
What do you think of when you think of those dreams? What is it about them that appeals to you? Do you imagine your current concerns going away? The approval of others and finally knowing you're a "success"? The joy of creating a work of art? People admiring you for being daring, brave, cool?
I ask because there are fantasies people build of escape and transformation, of leaving it all behind to move to (some other land, where we will be different people) or of abandoning our current jobs and ties to become purely the Artist or Archaeologist or Entrepreneur or some other type of person whose life is not at all like our current ones. If this is the way you have those dreams constructed in your mind then there *is* a conflict. Signing on to a plan for your life - I will marry this person, we will have children, and they will be hopefully my spouse and definitely my children for the rest of my life - can make us look at our mortality, at the fact that we only get to be one person in our lives (even though that one person can do so many things one after another). You can still get that PhD - but it won't be the whole lifestyle you envisioned when you were imagining doing it as a single person.
There are also needs we have to pursue our passions and our dreams. And those you should *not* give up. Some questions for you to think of there: What is your art? Would you be happier to have a space to do some of it? What is the entrepreneurial venture you wanted to start? Would you enjoy having some involvement in that field? What about archaeology as a field attracts you? Is that realistic to the field, and can you get a taste of it through courses or travel or reading independently? What do you want to *do*? You'll have some spare time in among raising kids, and you'd best find some things to do with it that you'll be satisfied and energized from.
posted by Lady Li at 12:28 AM on July 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
Dang, that got convoluted. Sorry. Shorter: if you are thinking of those dreams as people you wanted to be, it's not surprising that making lifetime commitments is putting you in touch with your mortality and that you only get to be one person.
But that doesn't mean you have to give up the things you want to *do*. Even though you can't go shed your identity and become some other person any more you can still do things for yourself (and should).
posted by Lady Li at 12:32 AM on July 8, 2017
But that doesn't mean you have to give up the things you want to *do*. Even though you can't go shed your identity and become some other person any more you can still do things for yourself (and should).
posted by Lady Li at 12:32 AM on July 8, 2017
You say, "Deciding to make marriage and family my top priority means giving up all other possibilities."
I wish you the best of luck on your journey and want to share a book that truly opened my eyes a few years ago. It talks about the importance of continued financial independence for wives and moms. It might not be what you want at all but hopefully will have at least a few interesting points. Making marriage and family your top priority is great but need not also an all-or-nothing proposition. Working hard at a job you love, following a creative dream, and more could really make you a "better" wife and mother, not a "worse" one. Just as you want to support your partner in their happiness, I am sure they want to support you in yours. I hope you two can start having those conversations now and continue them as your life together grows.
posted by smorgasbord at 8:31 AM on July 13, 2017
I wish you the best of luck on your journey and want to share a book that truly opened my eyes a few years ago. It talks about the importance of continued financial independence for wives and moms. It might not be what you want at all but hopefully will have at least a few interesting points. Making marriage and family your top priority is great but need not also an all-or-nothing proposition. Working hard at a job you love, following a creative dream, and more could really make you a "better" wife and mother, not a "worse" one. Just as you want to support your partner in their happiness, I am sure they want to support you in yours. I hope you two can start having those conversations now and continue them as your life together grows.
posted by smorgasbord at 8:31 AM on July 13, 2017
This thread is closed to new comments.
So anything you really dedicate yourself to will limit your options. Sit down and figure out the things that are important to you, mourn the paths you didn't take, and then live your chosen life fully.
And feel free to reevaluate occasionally - a parent has choices about childcare and how they spend their time, and you're allowed to change how you go about it if you need to it.
posted by ldthomps at 7:41 AM on July 6, 2017 [2 favorites]