Comments on: 2nd person perspective narratives

Question: 2nd person perspective narratives

0bvious — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:10:39 -0800

Fiction usually comes in two flavours: 1st person narrative or 3rd person description. What short stories or novels have been written in 2nd person perspective (i.e. from the reader's viewpoint)? Also, are there any movies shot entirely from this angle?

By: johngoren

johngoren — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:11:37 -0800

Choose Your Own Adventure novels.

By: occhiblu

occhiblu — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:13:15 -0800

"American Psycho" and "Fight Club," if I'm remembering correctly.

By: vacapinta

vacapinta — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:14:31 -0800

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/7061

By: drewbage1847

drewbage1847 — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:15:30 -0800

The closest thing I can think of in film is Robert Montgomery's version of Lady in the Lake. But really in that movie the viewer is Marlowe.

Man does that movie really prove why it's poor to shoot everything in that form of perspective. It's dull.

By: devilsbrigade

devilsbrigade — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:17:25 -0800

The problem with 2nd person perspective is that it forces the reader to play along. If the reader doesn't agree with the author, it completely throws the reader out of the story, which authors tend not to want to do. Fine for maybe a few sentences, but an entire book?

By: gregb1007

gregb1007 — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:22:36 -0800

devilsbrigade, you've got the right idea. 2nd person perspective virtually requires the reader to step into the identity of the protagonist. Usually, however, the protagonist has a very distinct personality that would make such virtual identification impossible. Usually but not always. Take "Choose Your Own Adventure" books. The reader actually makes a decision about what the character should do and each decision leads to a different storyline. The reader's active decision making status allows the author to write from a 2nd hand perspective, since the reader is, like a video game player, identifying himself with the protagonist.

By: Espy Gillespie

Espy Gillespie — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:24:43 -0800

"American Psycho" is written in 1st person.

I'm not sure what you mean by "are there any movies shot entirely from this angle?" From the audience's viewpoint? From the audience as a character? That would be 1st person, like (apparently) some scenees in Doom.

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:26:55 -0800

Italo Calvino's If On A Winter's Night A Traveler has some second-person narrative, and it's very cleverly done.

I believe that Lady in the Lake was promoted as the truest form of first-person narrative. After all, when you read a book written in first person, you are in the narrator's head, and that's where you are in Lady in the Lake. The problem with a second-person narrative, of course, is that the obviousness of the lie is harder to work around. A book can at least engage your own imagination to do part of the work, e.g. "You suddenly do a double backflip;" a movie, being an audio and visual medium, cannot actually show you or imitate what you sound like, so talking about a second-person movie is a bit like talking about traveling in four-dimensional space. There might be a way to do it, but it's outside the scope of movies as we know them.

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:27:29 -0800

...also, I believe that Bright Lights, Big City is written in second person, but I haven't read it.

By: Astro Zombie

Astro Zombie — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:30:45 -0800

There was a Bogart film that was shot mostly from his point of view. Dark Passage? And I recall an episode of M*A*S*H being filmed the same way.

Er, not from Bogie's view. From the character's.

By: mdn

mdn — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:30:48 -0800

Bright Lights, Big City is famous for this, and it kind of works, but partly seems like a gimmick, done for the sake of doing it rather than because it is really the best way to present the story. I think parts of If On a Winter's Night A Traveler... were in second person, too - don't remember exactly how it fit together now, but various sections were only tangentially related...

By: honeyx

honeyx — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:33:23 -0800

Stewart O'Nan's A Prayer for the Dying is written in the second person. He pulls off this very difficult tecnique extremely well. It's a fantastic book.

By: Espy Gillespie

Espy Gillespie — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:33:39 -0800

For No One by The Beatles uses 2nd person to pretty great effect, I think.

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:36:56 -0800

uh, mdn...were you referencing my answers, or was that a bizarre coincidence?

By: solid-one-love

solid-one-love — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:39:07 -0800

I wouldn't call it much of a coincidence; it was also the first novel I thought of when I read the question.

By: frogan

frogan — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:41:16 -0800

...also, I believe that Bright Lights, Big City is written in second person, but I haven't read it.

This is true. You wrote this book entirely in second person. You know this because you read it back when it was cool. ;-)

By: bingo

bingo — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:43:24 -0800

solid-one-love: Which of the two novels are you talking about? Thanks for paying attention.

By: solid-one-love

solid-one-love — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:45:45 -0800

If on a winter's night a traveler. I didn't see your short second post because of my near-blindness. I apologize for offending you.

By: pmbuko

pmbuko — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:51:47 -0800

Bunker 13, by Aniruddha Bahal.

By: mdn

mdn — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 21:58:49 -0800

uh, mdn...were you referencing my answers, or was that a bizarre coincidence?

sorry, this no preview thing still trips me up :).
I don't think it's that bizarre a coincidence, though - I think of Bright Lights, Big City as being known for this the way A Void is known for not having any e's, honestly... And Calvino is also a pretty well known example, more so than some of the others being brought up, I think. but apologies - shoulda double checked the thread. or just posted faster...

By: Clay201

Clay201 — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:00:46 -0800

Supposedly, Robert Redford wanted to adapt Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance for the screen and planned to shoot the movie - except for the very end - from the point of view of the protagonist, as if his eyes were the camera lens.

By: peep

peep — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:14:53 -0800

Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas by Tom Robbins is written in the second person. I couldn't read more than two pages. There's a reason not much fiction is written this way - it sucks.

By: staggernation

staggernation — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:28:10 -0800

Dark Passage is indeed the movie Astro Zombie is thinking of, but it's only shot from the character's POV for about the first third. The premise: Convict escapes, hooks up with Lauren Bacall, gets plastic surgery to alter his appearance, looks like Humphrey Bogart when the bandages come off. So the whole perspective thing is pretty much a gimmick that prevents us from seeing the pre-surgery, non-Bogie face.

Anyway, I don't know if I'd call that second person.

By: themadjuggler

themadjuggler — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:18:35 -0800

Aren't all epistolary novels technically second-person narratives?

By: Goblindegook

Goblindegook — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:43:38 -0800

Jeff VanderMeer's "Three Days in a Border Town" as well as a section of his Veniss Underground.

By: Goblindegook

Goblindegook — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:49:21 -0800

themadjuggler wrote: Aren't all epistolary novels technically second-person narratives?

No. Although an epistolary novel references the reader, it usually tells the story from the narrator's POV, rather than the supposed recipient.

By: kyleg

kyleg — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 23:55:49 -0800

This season's premiere episode of Scrubs was mostly shot from the perspective of a new intern.

I recently read a short story which uses this perspective skillfully, "Landfall" by Julie Hensley, but I can't find a copy online. If you can find a copy of Hayden's Ferry Review, Issue #32, go for it.

By: apple scruff

apple scruff — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:43:59 -0800

An episode of M*A*S*H titled"Point of View" from the seventh season was considered to be very innovative for its time. The entire episode was filmed from the perspective of a wounded soldier as he recuperated at the 4077.

By: Justinian

Justinian — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 01:56:50 -0800

There are parts of Iain Banks' Complicity written in second person.

By: acridrabbit

acridrabbit — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:39:07 -0800

For a dystopian novel in second person, try Molly Zero. It's out of print, but your library may have/be able to get a copy. It was the first book I read written in second person, and it is pretty good. Even better, having read it allowed me to win an argument with my 8th grade English teacher, who maintained that it is not possible to write a novel in the second person. By the way - I loved Half Asleep in Frog Pajamas!

By: Prospero

Prospero — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:44:23 -0800

Nathaniel Hawthorne's short story "The Haunted Mind" is written entirely in the second person.

By: Gortuk

Gortuk — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 04:46:06 -0800

As long as we're extending the question to television, the BBC comedy "Peep Show" is shot entirely from the perspective of the characters. It's a gimmick, but you stop noticing after a while because the show is freaking hilarious. Three series out in the UK, well worth importing (or searching your local torrent site for if you don't have a region-free dvd player).

By: alms

alms — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:10:32 -0800

I recently read a novel titled Girls that was written mostly in second person narrative, in present tense. It worked, probably because it was composed of a series of short vignettes, many of which were contempletive or philosophical or pornographic. Unfortunately I can't remember the name of the author, and the short title makes it virtually impossible to search for.

By: brilliantmistake

brilliantmistake — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:18:18 -0800

that's Channel 4 (genius) comedy Peep Show

By: jaded

jaded — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 05:39:11 -0800

There are parts of Iain Banks' Complicity written in second person.

And that is why I couldn't get past the first ten pages. I love Banks, but gimmicks like that are just annoying if you're trying to read a good story.

By: junkbox

junkbox — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:08:22 -0800

Fair and Tender Ladies by Lee Smith is an amazing novel written entirely in the 2nd person, mostly in the form of letters from the main character to her sister and other relatives.

By: youarenothere

youarenothere — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 06:48:30 -0800

B.S. Johnson swicthes in and out of second-person in many of his works. I especially like Albert Angelo and Christie Malry's Own Double-Entry.

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:06:54 -0800

alms, I think it was by Nic Kelman.

I've not read it but I think Non-Stop by Brian Aldiss is all second person.

By: drobot

drobot — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 07:20:27 -0800

Frederick Barthelme's short story "Shopgirls" is second person, if I remember correctly.

By: ykjay

ykjay — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:03:41 -0800

William Gibson's short story from "Burning Chrome" anthology, I think called "Fragments of a Hologram Rose" was largely in the 2nd person, about a complex high-tech sting to steal a scientist from another company.

By: alms

alms — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:47:54 -0800

With help from Ninebelow, here's an excerpt from Girls by Nic Kelman.

You were in Pusan.

When you flew in, the port was hidden by cloud. You couldn't see the city at all, only the tops of mountains. The man to the right of you, a Korean, said, "Ha! That's smog. Smog! Not so pretty now, huh? Smog! Ha-ha! Ha-ha! Smog!" He went on laughing to himself as he picked up his paper again and read some more. You were still working for that investment bank, were there to find out why a container ship was behind schedule. You had been told it would probably be necessary to make an example of someone, that you should determine who.

And when you landed, it was drizzling, grey. The whole city was grey. Built of concrete and iron, built for building. You couldn't see very far down the streets in that rain that was almost a mist. Through the haze the odd red or green punched - neons, traffic lights, trashcan fires. But that was all. On the way from the airport to the hotel and the next morning from the hotel to the office, you became completely disoriented. You tried to follow your route on the map your girlfriend had given you but it was useless. You didn't know where you were.

Continued here.

By: Prospero

Prospero — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 08:54:48 -0800

Oh yeah--the Girls are Pretty blog is written in the second person as well.

By: nadawi

nadawi — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:23:57 -0800

I'm not positive as I don't have my copy of it anymore...but I believe John Barth's short story Lost In The Fun House is 2nd person. If it's not, read it anyway as it's real good.

By: eustacescrubb

eustacescrubb — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 09:29:16 -0800

"Forever Overheard" bby David Foster Wallace is a good example of such a story, partly because Wallce does a good job of picking events (jumping off a high dive for the first time/one's 13th birthday) that average people are likely to relate to, which aids in getting the reader to play along.

By: Decani

Decani — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:05:56 -0800

Another shoutout for Iain Banks' "Complicity", which is one of my three favourite Banks books. The device is that the narrative moves into the second person whenever one of the numerous attacks or murders is being committed. Unlike "jaded" I thought it worked superbly because it moved you into another place for those incidents. It added a highly effective contrast between the two threads of the story. I recommend it.

By: _sirmissalot_

_sirmissalot_ — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:23:10 -0800

Lorrie Moore's short story collection, Self-Help, is written mostly in 2nd person (i.e. "How to Be an Other Woman," "How to Become a Writer," etc.) It's also brilliant.

By: bonaldi

bonaldi — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:26:15 -0800

Ron Butlin's The Sound of my Voice is entirely second-person, but also doesn't fall in to the usual trap of talking as if it's talking to the reader. Tricky to explain without a spoiler. It's dark, and brilliant.

By: box

box — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:34:03 -0800

Ayn Rand's novel Anthem is, in my view, pretty crappy, but if memory serves, it's written in second-person.

By: cobra libre

cobra libre — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:11:01 -0800

Aura, by Carlos Fuentes, is written in second person, and I found the reading experience terribly disconcerting. It felt rather like a Choose Your Own Adventure story with all of the decision branches removed. Maybe that was the point, come to think of it.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:40:17 -0800

While not 2nd person, the gimmick used in the film "memento" forced the character's flaw onto the viewer.

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:43:58 -0800

Another quasi - I forget the titles, but several of the old seasome street books have the reader as the protagonist, eg, on each page, grover implores you not to turn the page, and devises various schemes to disuade you, then gets mad at you when you do.

By: wheat

wheat — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 12:53:33 -0800

Albert Camus The Fall is one example. Someone else mentioned Calvino's If on a winter's night a traveller... upthread (great book).

By: luneray

luneray — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:05:56 -0800

The Dress Lodger by Sheri Holman. The technique is most obvious at the beginning of the story.

And what about Wuthering Heights? The story is actually told to you by another character, who I think only shows up on the first page. (It's been awhile since I've read it.)

By: luneray

luneray — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:11:07 -0800

Perhaps also Hopscotch by Julio Cortazar. Although the story isn't narrated by "you", the reader does choose the order in which to read the chapters, giving the reader to power to control the storytelling.

By: mdn

mdn — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 14:31:41 -0800

-harlequin-, that was There's a Monster at the End of This Book (something like that) because grover forgets he's a monster. and he's at the end of the book.

By: nobody

nobody — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:36:14 -0800

Maybe I'm just not thinking it through, but I suspect the only way for cinema to invoke a 2nd person narrative mode would be through voice over or on-screen text. The least disjunctive idea for a recognizable "normal" film that strictly adheres to the second person requirement would probably be a movie structured as a video-letter sent to an unnamed "you," positioning the audience (either as a group or, more likely, as a single individual) as the actual addressee. (The content of the video-letter could be recreations of what the writer thinks "you" have been doing to make it really count as 2nd person narrative, but with that we may have gone too far into gimmick. It would have to be brilliant).

(Here's The Monster at the end of this Book online as page images. It's still incredible. I think I'll go post this in the blue).

By: -harlequin-

-harlequin- — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:57:36 -0800

There is also the one where Oscar The Grouch wants you to leave him alone :)

By: bingo

bingo — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 20:23:21 -0800

I actually own a hardcopy of There's A Monster At The End of This Book. Just got it a few months ago.

Ayn Rand's novel Anthem is, in my view, pretty crappy, but if memory serves, it's written in second-person.

I am not a big defender of Rand either, but Anthem is not written in second person. It's written in first person, but the narrator doesn't know the word "I," so refers to himself as "we."

By: yankeefog

yankeefog — Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:35:28 -0800

"First person" and "second person" refer to the pronouns used to by the narrator to describe the protagonist. As Nobody points out, if we are going to be literal, we can only apply these terms to movies that have voiceover narrators.

But from a metaphorical point of view, it's fair to think of the camera as the narrator. Looked at this way, shots in which the camera shows us what one of the characters is seeing (known as POV shots, for "point of view") could be interpreted as first person ("Here is what I am seeing") or second person ("here is what you would see if you were this character.")

The fact that a certain genre of videogames is known as "first-person shooters" rather than "second-person shooters" seems to suggest a widespread intuitive belief that POV shots are first- and not second-person.

Personally, I think "second person" is the most apt description for POV shots. I'd use "first-person" to describe films (with or without a narrator) where the audience only sees events when the protagonist is present (like The Sixth Sense or Ferris Bueller's Day Off.) "Third person," of course, is films where the audience gets to see everything--Syriana and Crash are two obvious recent examples. (If we were going to be a little more literal about it, I'd call this "third person omniscient"; in literature, it's possible to have a third-person narrative that stays focused exclusively on one person... one more reason why it's a little slippery to apply these terms to film.)

Anyway, whatever you call it, shooting a film exclusively from a character's POV is rare. In addition to The Lady In The Lake and Dark Passage, an IMDB keyword search also turns up Russian Ark, Strange Days, The Dark Past, The Legend of Alfred Packer, and a few first-person shooters. Of these, I've only seen Russian Ark, but I can confirm that the entire film is in one POV shot, and that characters routinely address the camera as if it were a person.

By: yankeefog

yankeefog — Thu, 19 Jan 2006 05:42:34 -0800

Oh, and I meant to add that when Orson Welles first came out to Hollywood, before he decided to do Citizen Kane, he wanted to do an adaptation of Heart of Darkness shot entirely from the narrator's POV.

By: nobody

nobody — Thu, 19 Jan 2006 12:10:29 -0800

Huh. If the Welles movie had been made, I wonder if Apocalypse Now never would have.

By: bingo

bingo — Sat, 28 Jan 2006 09:36:10 -0800

I'd use "first-person" to describe films (with or without a narrator) where the audience only sees events when the protagonist is present (like The Sixth Sense or Ferris Bueller's Day Off.)

Not that anyone is reading this anymore, but Ferris Bueller's Day Off involves plenty of scenes that do not include the protagonist. Most notably scenes involving the sister and the principal, together and separately, as well as Ferris' mother.

By: Mitheral

Mitheral — Fri, 14 Jul 2006 20:43:50 -0800

http://ask.metafilter.com/mefi/42201