How to tell male friend that I can't be his therapist anymore?
June 9, 2017 3:29 PM Subscribe
I still want to be friends, but I can't go on doing this one-sided friendship!
We've been friends for over 10 years, but close friends since I moved to this city about 3 years ago. We've both had depressive episodes over the years. But the difference is, he talks to me at length about his issues, always asking my opinion about his career, his love life, what is my philosophy of this and that, what is the purpose of my life, etc, but I've recently noticed that he never asks me how I am, or says thanks for my advice and listening. He's otherwise a great guy, so for a long time it didn't bother me, and I've never said anything because I think initially I enjoyed having someone to talk to who was interested in hearing my opinions about deep topics.
Several times in the past 2 years, this has involved in depth conversations about him that last for over 2 hours, when all I thought was that we were meeting at a bar for a casual drink.
It used to be interesting a few years ago when we were both in university, but now I feel completely exhausted and drained every time I hang out with him. It's all the worse because I've realized lately that he never reciprocates any of the friendly gestures I've made to him (ie: remembering birthdays and important personal events, doing small favours for him, including him in social events). Not that he owes me any of those things, but that's how I like my friendships to be and I'm feeling a bit bitter right now.
I've never told him this, and now I feel like I want to, but I don't know how. I feel like he would be open to reading about emotional labour-- he's quite open-minded -- but I can't quite figure out how to tell him this because I don't want to have a long discussion about it (this is the reason he's burning me out). It might sound like I'm being an ungenerous friend, but I have way less support (both financial and emotional) in my life than he does. (His parents are both living, they're wealthy and pay for most of his stuff because he just finished grad school).
anyways, I'd like to remain friends with him but I want to be clear with him that this is not OK.
I want to tell him in a way that's not going to trigger too much depression though. Ideas?
We've been friends for over 10 years, but close friends since I moved to this city about 3 years ago. We've both had depressive episodes over the years. But the difference is, he talks to me at length about his issues, always asking my opinion about his career, his love life, what is my philosophy of this and that, what is the purpose of my life, etc, but I've recently noticed that he never asks me how I am, or says thanks for my advice and listening. He's otherwise a great guy, so for a long time it didn't bother me, and I've never said anything because I think initially I enjoyed having someone to talk to who was interested in hearing my opinions about deep topics.
Several times in the past 2 years, this has involved in depth conversations about him that last for over 2 hours, when all I thought was that we were meeting at a bar for a casual drink.
It used to be interesting a few years ago when we were both in university, but now I feel completely exhausted and drained every time I hang out with him. It's all the worse because I've realized lately that he never reciprocates any of the friendly gestures I've made to him (ie: remembering birthdays and important personal events, doing small favours for him, including him in social events). Not that he owes me any of those things, but that's how I like my friendships to be and I'm feeling a bit bitter right now.
I've never told him this, and now I feel like I want to, but I don't know how. I feel like he would be open to reading about emotional labour-- he's quite open-minded -- but I can't quite figure out how to tell him this because I don't want to have a long discussion about it (this is the reason he's burning me out). It might sound like I'm being an ungenerous friend, but I have way less support (both financial and emotional) in my life than he does. (His parents are both living, they're wealthy and pay for most of his stuff because he just finished grad school).
anyways, I'd like to remain friends with him but I want to be clear with him that this is not OK.
I want to tell him in a way that's not going to trigger too much depression though. Ideas?
Hm, maybe when he starts in a "oh I'm fine, thanks for asking." I know some would say that's passive aggressive but it's not, it's aggressive aggressive, if deployed with enough obvious snark. As you are a woman, this guy will not take you as seriously as he should, but it's a jumping ground for you to say "haha dude lighten up, and ask me how I'm doing next time."
I know that's "bad friend behavior," "not understanding depression" blah blah but as you've suffered from it you obviously do understand it and the burden is not on you to be less depressed than him and make him into a feminist. So for me, I'd just shut down the bullshit when it starts.
As for the birthday stuff, you can't make him remember your birthday but you can quit reaching out on his, or alternately text him "hey my birthday is this week, want to come to my gathering?" Or neither. Depends on what you feel is worth it. I know upholding emotional bonds is part of actual mental health but you don't have to do it for people who don't reciprocate. You can create your own friend family of people who do.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
I know that's "bad friend behavior," "not understanding depression" blah blah but as you've suffered from it you obviously do understand it and the burden is not on you to be less depressed than him and make him into a feminist. So for me, I'd just shut down the bullshit when it starts.
As for the birthday stuff, you can't make him remember your birthday but you can quit reaching out on his, or alternately text him "hey my birthday is this week, want to come to my gathering?" Or neither. Depends on what you feel is worth it. I know upholding emotional bonds is part of actual mental health but you don't have to do it for people who don't reciprocate. You can create your own friend family of people who do.
posted by stoneandstar at 3:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
God, I feel you. I've had several times in my life where I could have written this question. This is such a shitty position
to be in. It makes you feel used and like you're only a person insofar as you can respond to your "friend's" needs. You never get your turn, it's always about them. I've been there. This person is not being a reciprocal friend to you, and it's both ok and good for you to set these boundaries. If this guy can't remain friends with you without you acting as a surrogate therapist for him, that's his fault for not being your friend and not yours.
The last time I realized a friendship of mine had this dynamic, after very gently suggesting many times that he seek therapy, I finally told him he needed to find a better method of managing his anxiety than to come to me every time he had a problem. And I decided for myself I'd only respond to him when he wanted to talk like friends, and not make it 100% about himself. I let a lot of needy questions go unanswered for weeks and eventually he stopped talking to me. Because he wasn't my friend, he was using me. And yeah, it hurt and it sucked, but I shouldn't have to deal with being treated like someone's personal Ask Metafilter when I want a friend.
My point is, all you can do is set your healthy boundaries for yourself. You can't manage his reaction to it. (And a person who can't see 2 feet in front of his own face to notice that the people he talks to are actual full humans with interests and needs of their own isn't someone who can be a good friend to you.)
Just tell him: you need to find a better method of managing your depression than to use me as your personal therapist. Don't make it a discussion.
I wish you the best of luck.
posted by phunniemee at 3:50 PM on June 9, 2017 [43 favorites]
to be in. It makes you feel used and like you're only a person insofar as you can respond to your "friend's" needs. You never get your turn, it's always about them. I've been there. This person is not being a reciprocal friend to you, and it's both ok and good for you to set these boundaries. If this guy can't remain friends with you without you acting as a surrogate therapist for him, that's his fault for not being your friend and not yours.
The last time I realized a friendship of mine had this dynamic, after very gently suggesting many times that he seek therapy, I finally told him he needed to find a better method of managing his anxiety than to come to me every time he had a problem. And I decided for myself I'd only respond to him when he wanted to talk like friends, and not make it 100% about himself. I let a lot of needy questions go unanswered for weeks and eventually he stopped talking to me. Because he wasn't my friend, he was using me. And yeah, it hurt and it sucked, but I shouldn't have to deal with being treated like someone's personal Ask Metafilter when I want a friend.
My point is, all you can do is set your healthy boundaries for yourself. You can't manage his reaction to it. (And a person who can't see 2 feet in front of his own face to notice that the people he talks to are actual full humans with interests and needs of their own isn't someone who can be a good friend to you.)
Just tell him: you need to find a better method of managing your depression than to use me as your personal therapist. Don't make it a discussion.
I wish you the best of luck.
posted by phunniemee at 3:50 PM on June 9, 2017 [43 favorites]
It certainly sounds like you need to tell him how you are feeling.
I don't think you have any responsibility towards his depression beyond telling him in the kindest way you feel able to.
You could perhaps start the conversation by asking how he feels about your friendship and lead that into how he thinks you might feel.
posted by walrus at 3:53 PM on June 9, 2017
I don't think you have any responsibility towards his depression beyond telling him in the kindest way you feel able to.
You could perhaps start the conversation by asking how he feels about your friendship and lead that into how he thinks you might feel.
posted by walrus at 3:53 PM on June 9, 2017
One way my friends have handled me when I've been sort of like this—going through difficult interpersonal situations and just processing a lot, bouncing a lot off of them, not reciprocating as much as I should—is to refer me to professionals (e.g., "Have you talked to your therapist about this?"). It always helps to hear that from someone who has done the same and I know is recommending something like that in good faith—and it's also sort of a subtle way to remind me that I'm going a little bit off the deep end in terms of monopolizing the conversation with my needs and being a bit self-centered.
That said, it could be more than a conversational gambit—it is sort of the standard Ask MetaFilter advice, but it might be worth seeing someone of your own for a time to vent about this, figure out some strategies for dealing with it, and guide your friend toward dealing with his life stresses or issues more productively.
If you think he means well and is just a bit unknowing about the extent to which he's taking and not giving back emotionally, that's where I would probably start. Also, one strategy a friend has used with me is just launching into it—whatever is on their mind, whatever is going on with them. Because I'm at least somewhat self-aware, it tends to remind me that this sort of thing is a two-way street: I'll listen to your thing; you listen to my thing. You might try that with him and see if you can get him to start listening.
If he still doesn't get it at that point, phrasing it in terms of your needs might help: "Hey, I'm trying to think through X thing. Can you help me think this through?" A slightly more formal intro to the part where you talk about your thoughts and needs can help frame this—and you can use that every time for a while, even if the thing you want to talk about isn't some one-off special situation. After a bit, he may start to get the hang of talking to you within that framework and even surprise you by turning the topic over to you without your prompting him.
This stuff takes practice. Unfortunately, a lot of people (not just guys, but yeah, a lot of guys) just don't have a ton of practice engaging with their friends in this sort of way. But it can be learned.
posted by limeonaire at 3:55 PM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
That said, it could be more than a conversational gambit—it is sort of the standard Ask MetaFilter advice, but it might be worth seeing someone of your own for a time to vent about this, figure out some strategies for dealing with it, and guide your friend toward dealing with his life stresses or issues more productively.
If you think he means well and is just a bit unknowing about the extent to which he's taking and not giving back emotionally, that's where I would probably start. Also, one strategy a friend has used with me is just launching into it—whatever is on their mind, whatever is going on with them. Because I'm at least somewhat self-aware, it tends to remind me that this sort of thing is a two-way street: I'll listen to your thing; you listen to my thing. You might try that with him and see if you can get him to start listening.
If he still doesn't get it at that point, phrasing it in terms of your needs might help: "Hey, I'm trying to think through X thing. Can you help me think this through?" A slightly more formal intro to the part where you talk about your thoughts and needs can help frame this—and you can use that every time for a while, even if the thing you want to talk about isn't some one-off special situation. After a bit, he may start to get the hang of talking to you within that framework and even surprise you by turning the topic over to you without your prompting him.
This stuff takes practice. Unfortunately, a lot of people (not just guys, but yeah, a lot of guys) just don't have a ton of practice engaging with their friends in this sort of way. But it can be learned.
posted by limeonaire at 3:55 PM on June 9, 2017 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Can I send him this info in an email? Is that gonna be a bad idea?
Or maybe I should just call him right now and say I have to tell him something?
I find this kind of stuff hard because what if he gets pissed and won't acknowledge what he's doing?
posted by winterportage at 4:02 PM on June 9, 2017
Or maybe I should just call him right now and say I have to tell him something?
I find this kind of stuff hard because what if he gets pissed and won't acknowledge what he's doing?
posted by winterportage at 4:02 PM on June 9, 2017
I might try something like "Hey, lately more than 90% of our conversation is about how bad you feel." Then he probably says "Oh, I didn't realize." (best case). Then you have some kind of prepared pivot and step away line to use. Can he still tell you about his problems if he limits it to 3 or 5 minutes with a timer? Or would you like him to zero it out completely. To me, I think email is pretty impersonal. But if you are really depleted, then do it. Or do "Really busy now" for a few days / weeks until you feel more perky.
posted by puddledork at 4:06 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by puddledork at 4:06 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can put it in an email, yes, or text or a banner behind a plane or however you feel comfortable telling him.
A conversation takes two people. If he wants to have a big talk about it and you do not, you can walk away.
It's not being mean to take care of yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
A conversation takes two people. If he wants to have a big talk about it and you do not, you can walk away.
It's not being mean to take care of yourself.
posted by phunniemee at 4:07 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I find this kind of stuff hard because what if he gets pissed and won't acknowledge what he's doing?
Then you know he's a really crummy friend to have and can cut him from your life without looking back.
Do it however you feel comfortable doing it, but it is most likely that he will be receptive if you a) do it in person, b) ask him how he sees/feels about your friendship, then c) tell him you feel it is one-sided and he doesn't show an interest in your life or what you're going through.
With A, you both have non-verbal cues to react to while discussing this aspect of your friendship; with B, he has a chance to get his words out of the way, will feel heard and not be completely blindsided by C. And when you tell him your side, focus on how you feel from your interactions, rather than the facts of what past conversations have been like. What matters is how he makes you feel, not what actions he believes he is taking.
If I was going to do this difficult kind of confrontation, I would also give my best friend a heads up, just in case my male friend was angry and defensive. Line up potential emotional support ahead of time so you have a plan for self-care if the person who has been an emotional vampire continues to be an emotional vampire.
Good luck. Your experience is valid and worth protecting!
posted by itesser at 4:26 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Then you know he's a really crummy friend to have and can cut him from your life without looking back.
Do it however you feel comfortable doing it, but it is most likely that he will be receptive if you a) do it in person, b) ask him how he sees/feels about your friendship, then c) tell him you feel it is one-sided and he doesn't show an interest in your life or what you're going through.
With A, you both have non-verbal cues to react to while discussing this aspect of your friendship; with B, he has a chance to get his words out of the way, will feel heard and not be completely blindsided by C. And when you tell him your side, focus on how you feel from your interactions, rather than the facts of what past conversations have been like. What matters is how he makes you feel, not what actions he believes he is taking.
If I was going to do this difficult kind of confrontation, I would also give my best friend a heads up, just in case my male friend was angry and defensive. Line up potential emotional support ahead of time so you have a plan for self-care if the person who has been an emotional vampire continues to be an emotional vampire.
Good luck. Your experience is valid and worth protecting!
posted by itesser at 4:26 PM on June 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Ok, I'm going to try and do this in person, although that never seems to really work for me because I always seem to forget something or end the conversation quickly if it gets awkward.
But anyways, here's is what I want to say and I'm wondering if there is a way to make it more diplomatic:
Hey,
I feel I needed to tell you something.
for the past while, I feel completely drained and emotionally exhausted by our conversations. it's not that I don't care, or don't want to help you.
it's that I've given you every idea I have and yet you still want more. I havent mentioned this before, but it's extremely exhausting to me, and I don't really feel like I'm helping you anyway.
I used to enjoy these talks, back when i felt that they were reciprocal.
It's hard for me to say this, but I really feel that you take me for granted. I don't feel like you've been there for me when i needed someone, and it's been a long time since I ever considered depending on someone the way you seem to depend on me. The reason I'm writing this to you, is that like I said, I'm exhausted from having these conversations.
Im not saying I'm bored of you. I'm saying that it's emotionally taking a toll on me and has been for a while.
je ne suis pas capable.
posted by winterportage at 4:32 PM on June 9, 2017
But anyways, here's is what I want to say and I'm wondering if there is a way to make it more diplomatic:
Hey,
I feel I needed to tell you something.
for the past while, I feel completely drained and emotionally exhausted by our conversations. it's not that I don't care, or don't want to help you.
it's that I've given you every idea I have and yet you still want more. I havent mentioned this before, but it's extremely exhausting to me, and I don't really feel like I'm helping you anyway.
I used to enjoy these talks, back when i felt that they were reciprocal.
It's hard for me to say this, but I really feel that you take me for granted. I don't feel like you've been there for me when i needed someone, and it's been a long time since I ever considered depending on someone the way you seem to depend on me. The reason I'm writing this to you, is that like I said, I'm exhausted from having these conversations.
Im not saying I'm bored of you. I'm saying that it's emotionally taking a toll on me and has been for a while.
je ne suis pas capable.
posted by winterportage at 4:32 PM on June 9, 2017
Would "I statements" work here? For instance, "when you never ask about my personal life/birthday/social life/job plans, etc, I feel hurt [or even bitter, as you've said here], because our friendship is becoming one-sided rather than reciprocal. I would like to remain friends, but I can't do that if I'm also acting as your therapist. How do you feel about this?"
The overall message is that you want to stay friends, and you present it as "I would like us to find a solution," rather than focusing on the problem itself of "you are exhausting me."
Best if done in person, but I understand the fear of getting derailed, so text or another chat platform might be an ok alternative. Email seems a little formal and doesn't actually have the back-and-forth that you are looking for in this relationship (and therefore might make him more defensive).
posted by basalganglia at 4:37 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
The overall message is that you want to stay friends, and you present it as "I would like us to find a solution," rather than focusing on the problem itself of "you are exhausting me."
Best if done in person, but I understand the fear of getting derailed, so text or another chat platform might be an ok alternative. Email seems a little formal and doesn't actually have the back-and-forth that you are looking for in this relationship (and therefore might make him more defensive).
posted by basalganglia at 4:37 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
I think what you're saying is fine, but since it's a conversation, I'd start first with one sentence rather than a whole paragraph, and then see how he responds. It can be pretty overwhelming to hear of a complaint (not that you're not in the right) for the first time and have it be a long litany. It may make him defensive.
If you bring up your concern succinctly, hopefully he'll respond and you can have a conversation and then bring up the further points down the paragraph. If he's not willing to listen or let you talk after the initial concern, that's a red flag anyway.
posted by bearette at 4:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
If you bring up your concern succinctly, hopefully he'll respond and you can have a conversation and then bring up the further points down the paragraph. If he's not willing to listen or let you talk after the initial concern, that's a red flag anyway.
posted by bearette at 4:41 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I feel like you asking us how to assert yourself more kindly is asking us to help you do more emotional labor, so answering you requires walking a fine line. I applaud you for wanting both to assert your needs and be kind, but ultimately if your needs aren't met, then the friendship is doomed.
With that in mind, your most recent follow-up with your proposed statements are likely to be heard by him as "you're exhausting, I'm exhausted, you've exhausted me with your selfishness." All those things sound true from what you've written, but stating them like that seems less like openings to a conversation about how to meet your needs and more like the beginning of a friend breakup statement.
Consider focusing more on the fact that you need things from a relationship in order to feel like it's a friendship instead of therapy, like "I feel like you're leaning on me more and more as a kind of therapist. I feel like what I need in a true friendship, and my feelings, are increasingly marginalized. I need more balance and reciprocity. As it stands I feel like you've cast me in the role of therapist, and that's not really appropriate especially in the absence of other things I think a true friendship should contain. Have you noticed this dynamic? Are you willing to make more of an effort to treat me as a true friend?"
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 4:58 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
With that in mind, your most recent follow-up with your proposed statements are likely to be heard by him as "you're exhausting, I'm exhausted, you've exhausted me with your selfishness." All those things sound true from what you've written, but stating them like that seems less like openings to a conversation about how to meet your needs and more like the beginning of a friend breakup statement.
Consider focusing more on the fact that you need things from a relationship in order to feel like it's a friendship instead of therapy, like "I feel like you're leaning on me more and more as a kind of therapist. I feel like what I need in a true friendship, and my feelings, are increasingly marginalized. I need more balance and reciprocity. As it stands I feel like you've cast me in the role of therapist, and that's not really appropriate especially in the absence of other things I think a true friendship should contain. Have you noticed this dynamic? Are you willing to make more of an effort to treat me as a true friend?"
posted by under_petticoat_rule at 4:58 PM on June 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've been in this position too. I agree with several commenters above that if I received your proposed email, I would take it as a friend break-up (and pretty dramatic at that). Which may indeed be what he deserves, but it sounded in your original question like a break-up wasn't what you were going for, and drama is always best avoided.
I would second the commenters who have said that this is probably best handled in the moment when it comes up, not via text/email/etc. Just cut him off when he's starting to unload on you, and say something like: "Wow, that does sound hard. I'm really not qualified to help you with that. You should talk to a therapist about it. [firm subject change]"
It's really about drawing a boundary with him, and sticking to it. That's usually done best not via emails that are detached from the actual event (although I get why sending an email would feel good—because it's a way of unloading on him unilaterally, just as he's doing to you!), but rather by addressing the behavior in the moment: stating firmly that it's not something you're willing or able to handle, and then following through (i.e., changing the subject or even leaving if he continues to try to use you as his unpaid therapist).
posted by honey wheat at 5:12 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I would second the commenters who have said that this is probably best handled in the moment when it comes up, not via text/email/etc. Just cut him off when he's starting to unload on you, and say something like: "Wow, that does sound hard. I'm really not qualified to help you with that. You should talk to a therapist about it. [firm subject change]"
It's really about drawing a boundary with him, and sticking to it. That's usually done best not via emails that are detached from the actual event (although I get why sending an email would feel good—because it's a way of unloading on him unilaterally, just as he's doing to you!), but rather by addressing the behavior in the moment: stating firmly that it's not something you're willing or able to handle, and then following through (i.e., changing the subject or even leaving if he continues to try to use you as his unpaid therapist).
posted by honey wheat at 5:12 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Do it in person. Start by fluffing him a little... not self-deprecating or minimizing like "Oh I just have this one teensy tiny critique," but rather "Hey we've been friends for a long time, so I know I can trust you to take me seriously since we talk about all aspects of our lives." Frame it as a meta-issue. "I enjoy our hangouts so much, but there's something about our dynamic that feels off to me. Can we chat about it?"
If he balks, RUN. If he's down, you need to hit two themes: the overarching idea of emotional labor and gendered socialization [which you are both being hurt by], and then the specific changes you want to see. That includes both setting firm boundaries and asking for what you want.
"I'm no longer available for long emotional talks unless I feel the venting is reciprocated. You know I care about you, but it's draining to have our conversations be so one-sided. I want to hear you asking me about my life as much as I ask you about yours. Also, I put a lot of care into inviting you to shared social events and remembering important dates... if you like receiving these things, I want you to do the same for me. It's the best way to show me our friendship is important."
He'll probably be astounded and ask for specific examples, then deny the severity of the problem. Don't get sidetracked in justifying yourself! Broken record that shit. Offer reading material and show him this thread if he's open. Habits take a long time to change, this *will* come up in the future. Never hesitate to derail a rant or excuse yourself from the table. Maybe come up with a joke to use when he starts emotionally manspreading... tip the hat a bit.
posted by fritillary at 6:01 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
If he balks, RUN. If he's down, you need to hit two themes: the overarching idea of emotional labor and gendered socialization [which you are both being hurt by], and then the specific changes you want to see. That includes both setting firm boundaries and asking for what you want.
"I'm no longer available for long emotional talks unless I feel the venting is reciprocated. You know I care about you, but it's draining to have our conversations be so one-sided. I want to hear you asking me about my life as much as I ask you about yours. Also, I put a lot of care into inviting you to shared social events and remembering important dates... if you like receiving these things, I want you to do the same for me. It's the best way to show me our friendship is important."
He'll probably be astounded and ask for specific examples, then deny the severity of the problem. Don't get sidetracked in justifying yourself! Broken record that shit. Offer reading material and show him this thread if he's open. Habits take a long time to change, this *will* come up in the future. Never hesitate to derail a rant or excuse yourself from the table. Maybe come up with a joke to use when he starts emotionally manspreading... tip the hat a bit.
posted by fritillary at 6:01 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
"When I hear you talking only about yourself and not asking about me, I feel exhausted and dismayed because I value reciprocity and mutuality in my relationships. Would you be willing to try asking me about myself?"
posted by MonsieurBon at 6:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by MonsieurBon at 6:08 PM on June 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Man, I kind of think everyone is giving terrible advice and the letter you want to send is going to end the friendship.
Just start being busy a lot more and turning down invites to hang out and let calls go to voicemail every once in a while. You don't need to be on call all the time.
If he notices you're being distant, then feel free to explain your feelings. There is absolutely nothing you're going to say to this guy that is going to change the way he interacts with you fundamentally, though. People don't change on a dime like that.
posted by empath at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
Just start being busy a lot more and turning down invites to hang out and let calls go to voicemail every once in a while. You don't need to be on call all the time.
If he notices you're being distant, then feel free to explain your feelings. There is absolutely nothing you're going to say to this guy that is going to change the way he interacts with you fundamentally, though. People don't change on a dime like that.
posted by empath at 7:18 PM on June 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
I'm going to chop up your proposed letter and glue a rough version back together using what I understand of the nonviolent communication technique. A lot of commenters have also responded with NVC-style advice:
The whole link is a short on nonviolent communication, if you're interested in learning more.
posted by aniola at 8:16 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
I feel I needed to tell you something.In summary, "When OBSERVATION, I feel FEELINGS.... My NEEDS are .... Would you be willing to fulfill these very specific, concrete REQESTS?"
*OBSERVATION (define what it is about your conversations that you find draining/exhausting): at length about his issues, always asking my opinion about his career, his love life, what is my philosophy of this and that, what is the purpose of my life, etc,
FEELINGS: for the past while, I feel completely drained and emotionally exhausted by our conversations*. [I would personally reframe the following using positive language, but that's me: it's not that I don't care, or don't want to help you.]
it's that I've given you every idea I have [OMIT: and yet you still want more]. I havent mentioned this before, but it's extremely exhausting to me, and I don't really feel like I'm helping you anyway.
[I would omit this but maybe it's fine?: I used to enjoy these talks, back when i felt that they were reciprocal.]
[NOT FEELINGS PER NVC; OMIT: It's hard for me to say this, but I really feel that you take me for granted. I don't feel like you've been there for me when i needed someone], and it's been a long time since I ever considered depending on someone the way you seem to depend on me. The reason I'm writing this to you, is that like I said, I'm exhausted from having these conversations. [I would just omit this whole paragraph.]
[OMIT: Im not saying I'm bored of you. I'm saying that it's emotionally taking a toll on me and has been for a while.]
NEEDS: see needs inventory, page 15. what needs do you have that are relevant to this topic?
REQUEST: asks me how I am, or says thanks for my advice and listening. remembering birthdays and important personal events [define], doing small favours [define], including in social events [define]
[OMIT: je ne suis pas capable.]
The whole link is a short on nonviolent communication, if you're interested in learning more.
posted by aniola at 8:16 PM on June 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
You do not sound at all like an ungenerous friend, you sound like someone who has been treated like a chump and who is finally getting angry about it. Good! Hang onto that, it's important for your mental and emotional health moving forward.
If/when you have this conversation with him, no matter the medium, I would not be at all surprised if he takes it as an opportunity to talk endlessly about why he does this, oh woe is him, him him him. And how much it hurts him that you think of him this way. And how much soothing he needs now that you've said these things. (None of these statements will address the hurt he is causing you.)
If so, please care for yourself by refusing to be his caretaker. His reactions are his to manage. You are here to speak about your feelings and reactions, not his.
You have spent many years learning to be the free therapist. It will take practice to unlearn these things, to learn to refuse, to have boundaries, to bring the conversation back to the main topic of Your Feelings Which Are Important. It will take time to learn to take up room in the conversation. He may or may not be willing to allow you to do that in this friendship. If not, let him go. Let yourself grow.
You can experiment with making this shift without confronting him. Or you can sit with this feeling and confront him later. A little bit of time can make your feelings less sharp-edged, and this can give you more energy to navigate a tricky conversation.
posted by sadmadglad at 8:30 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
If/when you have this conversation with him, no matter the medium, I would not be at all surprised if he takes it as an opportunity to talk endlessly about why he does this, oh woe is him, him him him. And how much it hurts him that you think of him this way. And how much soothing he needs now that you've said these things. (None of these statements will address the hurt he is causing you.)
If so, please care for yourself by refusing to be his caretaker. His reactions are his to manage. You are here to speak about your feelings and reactions, not his.
You have spent many years learning to be the free therapist. It will take practice to unlearn these things, to learn to refuse, to have boundaries, to bring the conversation back to the main topic of Your Feelings Which Are Important. It will take time to learn to take up room in the conversation. He may or may not be willing to allow you to do that in this friendship. If not, let him go. Let yourself grow.
You can experiment with making this shift without confronting him. Or you can sit with this feeling and confront him later. A little bit of time can make your feelings less sharp-edged, and this can give you more energy to navigate a tricky conversation.
posted by sadmadglad at 8:30 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
When there is a problem behavior, it can sometimes be easier to try to encourage substitute behaviors than to try to get the bad behavior to stop.
Maybe there are activities that you used to like to do together that you don't do anymore? Would this friend be a better stuff-doing friend than a long-talks friend? Or perhaps there are other topics that you would like to discuss with him?
You could call him and say "Hey, we've been having lots of heavy talks recently, lets do other friend things. Hasn't it been a long time since we played tennis? Lets do that for two hours next week!" Or maybe "Lets get together and talk about my career, I really need a friend to work through the situation."
Then you could see if you do in fact enjoy doing things with him and if he is willing and able to engage with you other than as a unpaid therapist. If he won't engage with you other than as a free therapist, even when directly asked, then he isn't being much of a friend.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 9:02 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe there are activities that you used to like to do together that you don't do anymore? Would this friend be a better stuff-doing friend than a long-talks friend? Or perhaps there are other topics that you would like to discuss with him?
You could call him and say "Hey, we've been having lots of heavy talks recently, lets do other friend things. Hasn't it been a long time since we played tennis? Lets do that for two hours next week!" Or maybe "Lets get together and talk about my career, I really need a friend to work through the situation."
Then you could see if you do in fact enjoy doing things with him and if he is willing and able to engage with you other than as a unpaid therapist. If he won't engage with you other than as a free therapist, even when directly asked, then he isn't being much of a friend.
posted by PlannedSpontaneity at 9:02 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
When you say, "it's that I've given you every idea I have and yet you still want more. I havent mentioned this before, but it's extremely exhausting to me, and I don't really feel like I'm helping you anyway." His response could easily be, "Oh no, it's very helpful, don't feel bad about not helping." Which is very much not the point of what you're trying to communicate.
I'd have a conversation in person that covered the fact that this is a very unbalanced relationship where he and his ideas and issues are the focus and that he rarely bothers to engage you in the same way. Tell him that his taking and not giving is exhausting.
Then, start your visits and interactions from now on with your issues and ideas and preferred topics of conversation. At least that way you know that they'll be covered instead of waiting for later. Also, since he's unlikely to be able to break his habit of making every interaction his show, you can rest assured that you'll also cover his stuff after you're fine with yours. Over time, hopefully he'll learn to find a more balanced approach to reciprocation.
Also, have him read the emotional labor thread.
If he reacts poorly and makes you sharing your feelings about his hurt feelings, I don't think he's going to be the friend you hope that he can be.
posted by quince at 9:04 PM on June 9, 2017
I'd have a conversation in person that covered the fact that this is a very unbalanced relationship where he and his ideas and issues are the focus and that he rarely bothers to engage you in the same way. Tell him that his taking and not giving is exhausting.
Then, start your visits and interactions from now on with your issues and ideas and preferred topics of conversation. At least that way you know that they'll be covered instead of waiting for later. Also, since he's unlikely to be able to break his habit of making every interaction his show, you can rest assured that you'll also cover his stuff after you're fine with yours. Over time, hopefully he'll learn to find a more balanced approach to reciprocation.
Also, have him read the emotional labor thread.
If he reacts poorly and makes you sharing your feelings about his hurt feelings, I don't think he's going to be the friend you hope that he can be.
posted by quince at 9:04 PM on June 9, 2017
I don't agree with empath's advice - if they are as close as OP says it is, the guy friend would be very hurt because that's basically ghosting on a friendship. Direct NVC communication works best in this regard. Assuming someone can't change is defeatist when there was never a conversation that allowed for potential change in the first place.
Also, these requests are not unreasonable. In my friendships, we all practice checking in about how we are taking space for venting. Before we start talking, we try our best to ask directly, "Is it okay if I can talk to you about something? Do you have capacity for it?" and after we find ourselves talking at length, we check in and say, "Oh, wow, I was talking for a while, how are you doing? Did I talk a lot? I also want to acknowledge you and give it back over to you as well." With more dense friends, I have flat out told them, "Hey, can I share about my problems? Will you listen to me?" And I'll figure out how good of a friend they really are.
It is possible to have friendships where direct communication about the flow of the conversation is normalized and if everyone is feeling heard and taken care of. More people could benefit from such a self-awareness and talking about it.
posted by yueliang at 9:15 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, these requests are not unreasonable. In my friendships, we all practice checking in about how we are taking space for venting. Before we start talking, we try our best to ask directly, "Is it okay if I can talk to you about something? Do you have capacity for it?" and after we find ourselves talking at length, we check in and say, "Oh, wow, I was talking for a while, how are you doing? Did I talk a lot? I also want to acknowledge you and give it back over to you as well." With more dense friends, I have flat out told them, "Hey, can I share about my problems? Will you listen to me?" And I'll figure out how good of a friend they really are.
It is possible to have friendships where direct communication about the flow of the conversation is normalized and if everyone is feeling heard and taken care of. More people could benefit from such a self-awareness and talking about it.
posted by yueliang at 9:15 PM on June 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
I want to tell him in a way that's not going to trigger too much depression though. Ideas?
It sounds cold but his depression triggers are not your problem. You should be as kind as you can be without doing even more work to get your barest of needs met. I have been in this sort of friendship and here are some things that helped me
- do activities that aren't sitting around and talking, things with other people, going to movies etc. Try to get some friend-time built up that isn't just venting time
- limit talking time literally. "I have time for a 45 min drink and then I have to go" and at 45 min, leave
- If friend starts acting like he has more and more to say because he's not getting good listening time from you, let him know that you care about him but that the friendship hasn't been reciprocal for a good long time now, it's tiring for you, and you are engaging in good self-care by limiting the draining-time you spend with him
Part of the really hard thing about depression for the people who have it and the people who love them is that it can be remarkably self-absorbing. My depressive friend can sort of make a to do list that says "Ask friend how she is feeling" but she can't stick to it and her depressive brain doesn't care, even though she, at some level, really does care. The fact that it's not her fault doesn't mean that it's not at least somewhat her responsibility. If this friend was a partner, a family member or one of your close friends, I'd suggest trying to help them with this. Otherwise, I'd just make your own space for you and not have a big email or phone call about it, just mention it next time you're together and stick to the script.
Does your friend have a therapist? Because after about the 30 minute mark of these long "I don't know what to do" jags, is about when you should be telling him he needs one and not to treat you like an unpaid one.
posted by jessamyn at 9:29 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
It sounds cold but his depression triggers are not your problem. You should be as kind as you can be without doing even more work to get your barest of needs met. I have been in this sort of friendship and here are some things that helped me
- do activities that aren't sitting around and talking, things with other people, going to movies etc. Try to get some friend-time built up that isn't just venting time
- limit talking time literally. "I have time for a 45 min drink and then I have to go" and at 45 min, leave
- If friend starts acting like he has more and more to say because he's not getting good listening time from you, let him know that you care about him but that the friendship hasn't been reciprocal for a good long time now, it's tiring for you, and you are engaging in good self-care by limiting the draining-time you spend with him
Part of the really hard thing about depression for the people who have it and the people who love them is that it can be remarkably self-absorbing. My depressive friend can sort of make a to do list that says "Ask friend how she is feeling" but she can't stick to it and her depressive brain doesn't care, even though she, at some level, really does care. The fact that it's not her fault doesn't mean that it's not at least somewhat her responsibility. If this friend was a partner, a family member or one of your close friends, I'd suggest trying to help them with this. Otherwise, I'd just make your own space for you and not have a big email or phone call about it, just mention it next time you're together and stick to the script.
Does your friend have a therapist? Because after about the 30 minute mark of these long "I don't know what to do" jags, is about when you should be telling him he needs one and not to treat you like an unpaid one.
posted by jessamyn at 9:29 PM on June 9, 2017 [14 favorites]
I've had more than a few friends like this. The time I was most successful was when my friend began the daily recitation of his tale of woe, and I finally said, 'Hey, you know, while I'm your friend, and I've been listening to you for years, because I thought I was helping you, I'm beginning to think that wasn't actually the best thing for you, because after all this time, you're not getting any better at dealing with your life. In fact, this is becoming such a preoccupation for you that it's all you can talk about when we're together; you haven't asked me about how I'm doing and meant it in months. This is clearly way above the paygrade of a friend listening — I think it's time you go talk to a therapist about this.'
That kicked off a shame spiral about what, did I think he was a bad friend now? And he was surprised when I said, Well… YES. He might not have intended to be a bad friend, but nevertheless, the net effect of his self-absorption was that he was behaving in ways that weren't friendly.
About a week and much sulking after that conversation, he had an anxiety attack at work that sent him to the ER. Once he got out, he scheduled an appointment with a therapist, and has gone weekly ever since. There was an initial stretch of overcorrection where he would dramatically tell me, 'I'm not telling you how I am because I don't want to lean on you!' or 'No, I want to hear about YOU!' And then there was a rocky phase of, 'Let's talk about how much better I'm doing because I haven't talked about myself in a while!'
The thing that finally fixed it was his wife going through a major health crisis, and he, for the first time in his life, had to do massive amounts of emotional labor for a long period of time. That's when the scales fell from his eyes, as it were, and he figured out how draining it was to have it be all about someone else all the time. He called me and apologized, but it took six years and being someone else's caregiver — not things within one's control.
So you can and probably should talk to him about it, for your own sanity, and set some boundaries with him, but unless it's a very mild case, be prepared for this to be a long haul.
posted by culfinglin at 10:09 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
That kicked off a shame spiral about what, did I think he was a bad friend now? And he was surprised when I said, Well… YES. He might not have intended to be a bad friend, but nevertheless, the net effect of his self-absorption was that he was behaving in ways that weren't friendly.
About a week and much sulking after that conversation, he had an anxiety attack at work that sent him to the ER. Once he got out, he scheduled an appointment with a therapist, and has gone weekly ever since. There was an initial stretch of overcorrection where he would dramatically tell me, 'I'm not telling you how I am because I don't want to lean on you!' or 'No, I want to hear about YOU!' And then there was a rocky phase of, 'Let's talk about how much better I'm doing because I haven't talked about myself in a while!'
The thing that finally fixed it was his wife going through a major health crisis, and he, for the first time in his life, had to do massive amounts of emotional labor for a long period of time. That's when the scales fell from his eyes, as it were, and he figured out how draining it was to have it be all about someone else all the time. He called me and apologized, but it took six years and being someone else's caregiver — not things within one's control.
So you can and probably should talk to him about it, for your own sanity, and set some boundaries with him, but unless it's a very mild case, be prepared for this to be a long haul.
posted by culfinglin at 10:09 PM on June 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think sending a formal letter is the nuclear option. You can be a lot more gentle about it by simply not engaging next time he brings up the same old topics. "Oh, you already know what I think about this, my opinion hasn't changed. But I tell you what, maybe YOU can help me with something, you've always had such good ideas, do you remember my blahblahblah...". Turn the topic back to yourself and give him the opportunity to be the friend you need. Flatter him into it, if need be. Then distract him from his issues with the topics you'd like to discuss.
Set a hard boundary. Laugh it off if need be and say you've hung up your therapist hat for the day and how about that sports team, but he can only keep burdening you if you allow him to. So don't. Whether you say you want to stick to light topics, whether you buzz a pretend buzzer and tell him it's your turn now, just don't engage. And stick with it, eventually he will get the message that the friendship isn't just on his terms.
posted by Jubey at 10:09 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Set a hard boundary. Laugh it off if need be and say you've hung up your therapist hat for the day and how about that sports team, but he can only keep burdening you if you allow him to. So don't. Whether you say you want to stick to light topics, whether you buzz a pretend buzzer and tell him it's your turn now, just don't engage. And stick with it, eventually he will get the message that the friendship isn't just on his terms.
posted by Jubey at 10:09 PM on June 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Others have given you good advice, but I'd like to chime in with a little technique I've been trying on my kid. When he starts going into his issues and asking for your advice, instead of racking your brain for the best course of action for him, sympathize and ask: "What are you going to do about it?" That's it. If he says he doesn't know, well, great, it's time to change focus to you! ("oh, guess you'll have to think about it some more. As for me, I've been having some issues at work and I was thinking " etc etc.)
This simple question gives him the locus of control and absolves you of any responsibility for his life. He'll probably be really surprised by it at first, but then, he'll either start taking more initiative (and thus be easier to handle when you meet) or he'll be offended that you're no longer prepared to come up with millions of ideas for solving his issues and eventually stop leaning on you so much.
(Btw, is he maybe of the Yes But type? I recommend reading that book even if you don't recognize him in the description.)
posted by gakiko at 5:40 AM on June 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
This simple question gives him the locus of control and absolves you of any responsibility for his life. He'll probably be really surprised by it at first, but then, he'll either start taking more initiative (and thus be easier to handle when you meet) or he'll be offended that you're no longer prepared to come up with millions of ideas for solving his issues and eventually stop leaning on you so much.
(Btw, is he maybe of the Yes But type? I recommend reading that book even if you don't recognize him in the description.)
posted by gakiko at 5:40 AM on June 10, 2017 [9 favorites]
I completely understand the difficulty with having this kind of conversation in person - it's easy for someone to get me off-course and then I don't get essential points made. You could send the email and offer to meet up and discuss it in person.
You can say "Bob, it seems that we spend most of our time talking about stuff you are dealing with. To be honest it's becoming difficult for me - I'm not a therapist, I don't know how to help you, and I don't know how to hear so much of your sadness without becoming sad myself. It also makes our friendship seem unbalanced to me. I hope you will consider seeing a therapist. Whether you do or not I need to step out of the role of your unofficial therapist, as I'm in way over my head. I'd like it if we could keep spending time together but instead of drinking and talking maybe (your options here - go to a movie, basket-weaving workshop, etc).
I know it may be odd that I'm sending this in an email. I would rather have talked about it in person, but I knew I would have trouble saying all of this in the way I want to. If you'd like to take some time to think about this and then meet up for coffee to discuss it, I will gladly meet up with you."
I agree with other posters that an email/letter is kind of nuclear, but it sounds like you are close to ending this friendship as it is. I think it's better to send the letter than say nothing or ghost, and I think the offer to meet him in person to discuss softens the nuclear aspect somewhat.
There are also things you can do in person to redirect conversations and set boundaries. Gakiko's suggestion is really good. You can also stop drinking with him (alcohol is a depressant) and suggest going to movies, museums, comedy shows, etc. Bars and booze make it easy to have mopey sad conversations, other venues make it harder.
P.S. I've found myself in your position several times, and I realized that this is a pattern for me - playing therapist, wanting to "save" people, wanting to be the wise therapist/sage and ultimately feeling disconnected and sad. I have considered telling some folks in my life "I have a problem. I find myself playing therapist with my friends. In the beginning I encourage them to tell me their problems, but then I find myself in over my head and saddened. I'm trying to stop, so in the future I will be changing the subject when I find myself doing this. I want to find ways to connect with people that aren't about me being a savior, so I'll be looking for shared experiences that are mutually interesting and engaging to have with friends. I hope I can count on your support and understanding. I still want to know what's going on in your life, but for the heavy stuff I may have to set a timer and I will definitely not be giving any advice."
posted by bunderful at 5:59 AM on June 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
You can say "Bob, it seems that we spend most of our time talking about stuff you are dealing with. To be honest it's becoming difficult for me - I'm not a therapist, I don't know how to help you, and I don't know how to hear so much of your sadness without becoming sad myself. It also makes our friendship seem unbalanced to me. I hope you will consider seeing a therapist. Whether you do or not I need to step out of the role of your unofficial therapist, as I'm in way over my head. I'd like it if we could keep spending time together but instead of drinking and talking maybe (your options here - go to a movie, basket-weaving workshop, etc).
I know it may be odd that I'm sending this in an email. I would rather have talked about it in person, but I knew I would have trouble saying all of this in the way I want to. If you'd like to take some time to think about this and then meet up for coffee to discuss it, I will gladly meet up with you."
I agree with other posters that an email/letter is kind of nuclear, but it sounds like you are close to ending this friendship as it is. I think it's better to send the letter than say nothing or ghost, and I think the offer to meet him in person to discuss softens the nuclear aspect somewhat.
There are also things you can do in person to redirect conversations and set boundaries. Gakiko's suggestion is really good. You can also stop drinking with him (alcohol is a depressant) and suggest going to movies, museums, comedy shows, etc. Bars and booze make it easy to have mopey sad conversations, other venues make it harder.
P.S. I've found myself in your position several times, and I realized that this is a pattern for me - playing therapist, wanting to "save" people, wanting to be the wise therapist/sage and ultimately feeling disconnected and sad. I have considered telling some folks in my life "I have a problem. I find myself playing therapist with my friends. In the beginning I encourage them to tell me their problems, but then I find myself in over my head and saddened. I'm trying to stop, so in the future I will be changing the subject when I find myself doing this. I want to find ways to connect with people that aren't about me being a savior, so I'll be looking for shared experiences that are mutually interesting and engaging to have with friends. I hope I can count on your support and understanding. I still want to know what's going on in your life, but for the heavy stuff I may have to set a timer and I will definitely not be giving any advice."
posted by bunderful at 5:59 AM on June 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
Side note: He may have some beliefs that cloud his ability to understand why you need to set boundaries. Beliefs like "depression makes me deep" "needing help is the only way I can connect with people" "it's not a real friendship if you can't talk about the dark stuff ... all the time" "this is what normal friendship looks like." You can understand that and not try to fix it and stick to your boundaries. Let him go as a friend if he can't respect what you need. Good luck.
posted by bunderful at 10:27 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bunderful at 10:27 AM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I really like Bunderful's script above, but I strongly suggest that you try to do it face to face if this is a friendship you want to hold onto. An e-mail could come across as much harsher than you intend. If your friend is prone to denial or hiding from things, you won't get any immediate feedback and could end up more confused.
I also think it would be worth trying to set some boundaries and "structure" your activities in a way that minimizes his opportunities to ramble on, e.g. if you both like movies, how about meeting for a drink or snack an hour or so before the event, rather than after, so there is only so much time for deep and soulful conversation?
posted by rpfields at 5:50 PM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
I also think it would be worth trying to set some boundaries and "structure" your activities in a way that minimizes his opportunities to ramble on, e.g. if you both like movies, how about meeting for a drink or snack an hour or so before the event, rather than after, so there is only so much time for deep and soulful conversation?
posted by rpfields at 5:50 PM on June 10, 2017 [1 favorite]
Every time he starts talking about his problems, advise him to see a therapist.
"This sounds like the sort of thing it would be helpful to talk to a therapist about."
"You know, a therapist could really offer you better advice than I can."
"You've been talking to me about [thing] for three years now. If you want [thing] to change, maybe seeing a therapist would be a good idea."
If he's already in therapy (which he should be) ask "what does your therapist say?" and "I think you should tell him/her what you just told me."
He's already using you as a therapist without compensation or thanks. Time for him to take his problems to a professional.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:07 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
"This sounds like the sort of thing it would be helpful to talk to a therapist about."
"You know, a therapist could really offer you better advice than I can."
"You've been talking to me about [thing] for three years now. If you want [thing] to change, maybe seeing a therapist would be a good idea."
If he's already in therapy (which he should be) ask "what does your therapist say?" and "I think you should tell him/her what you just told me."
He's already using you as a therapist without compensation or thanks. Time for him to take his problems to a professional.
posted by Pallas Athena at 5:07 PM on June 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
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