Sleeping on back, toes up in the air... really?

June 5, 2017 12:03 AM

I once had a massage therapist tell me that if my legs rotated out while sleeping on my back, then that was surely a sign of bad posture and weak hip muscles (or something). This admonishment has stuck with me ever since, but what else are feet supposed to do while back sleeping, point straight up in the air?

I usually sleep on my side but am always looking for more information on better sleep hygiene and posture. Is it really so terrible for my legs if they turn outwards while relaxed?

I'm trying to take the source with a grain of salt -- I did not, at the time, realize my massage would finish with colored sticker dots on specific pressure points to "improve my qi" -- but I cannot for the life of me find any information in cursory Googling.

posted by lesser weasel to Health & Fitness (17 answers total)

Best answer: What? I know my feet tend to turn in while I sleep- but that's because I have tibiatortion. Unless your feet are like 90 degrees out from straight up, there is nothing horrible about having feet that point a little out while you sleep. This sounds completely crazy, and knowing what I know about legs and leg muscles, (source: 6 years of ankle surgeries and the associated physical therapy plus the skeletal deformities I was born with) this sounds like something which in the extreme might be true, (see above sarcasm about having feet that are 90 degrees out from straight) but in the minor is totally harmless. Was this massage therapist working for a hospital? Were they accredited? Because they sound like a complete loony. I wouldn't worry about it. I think your posture and hips are most likely fine, and they were trying to worry you so you'd pay for adjustments or something. What a loony tunes!
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:37 AM on June 5, 2017 [2 favorites]

You could have the opposite of what I have- could be your tibia is a little twisty the other way- but again- pretty fucking harmless unless seriously severe. Unless people your whole life have been commenting on your natural ballet first position, I think your posture and hips are fine.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 12:40 AM on June 5, 2017

That massage therapist was making stuff up or just totally misinformed.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:50 AM on June 5, 2017

Best answer: I get what your massage therapist is saying - when my hips are in alignment and I am laying on my back my feet point at equal angles of 5 degrees approx. But when my right hip goes out, as it sometimes does over time in a desk job, my right foot rotates slowly outwards over months to about 15 degrees -or it did, I don't let it get that bad anymore. Then right physical therapy for me aligns it again. Sure, it's postural to a point, but it's nothing to be ashamed of. Even if I was a yoga master, I'd still have this hip problem because almost no-one is born perfectly equilateral. One leg will almost always be a tad longer, one scapula a smidgen smaller and all those mirco-imbalances impact our posture and kinetics.
posted by Thella at 1:55 AM on June 5, 2017 [3 favorites]

Best answer: It's a matter of degree. If you lie on your back your toes point at the ceiling. If, for whatever reason your toes roll over until they point horizontally this means that you are not a marionette strung together with the average degree of skeletal. muscular and ligament tension of an average person.

It might well be a matter for consternation to notice that your toes are sticking out horizontally when you are lying on your back. I know my husband's did the day he slipped on the ice on our front doorstep, but my first clue that something had gone wrong was that he was alternating screaming with going unconscious, my second clue was that he was flat on his back on the side walk, and the third clue of the rotated foot led me to believe that at least one of his lower leg bones had both snapped and displaced.

But if your toes point to one o'clock rather than twelve o'clock I do not think you need to panic, and if you studied ballet extensively I would be surprised if they didn't point to two o'clock, and there are a lot of degrees to which they could point and still be healthy - so I would work from the assumption that your massage therapist was trying to make a generalization clearer, not be specific and perhaps only made you think she meant it was a serious issue.
posted by Jane the Brown at 4:10 AM on June 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

I have weak outer hips; my feet turn out to about 2:15. These are facts, but I cannot prove they are connected.
posted by dame at 5:24 AM on June 5, 2017

Best answer: For a theatre class once, I was part of a scene where one of the actors was on the floor, in the role of someone who had died. The main challenge you would think is not to look like you're breathing, and that's one of the giveaways. The other surprised me. The instructor noticed the actor's feet pointing straight up. Relax your feet," he said. "Dead people's feet don't point straight at the ceiling. When you're completely relaxed, or dead, your feet fall apart and rotate outward a bit. Just let it happen."

FWIW...
posted by cartoonella at 5:32 AM on June 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

here I thought if your feet pointed straight up, that meant you had weak external hip rotation and needed to hire a trainer to correct it. that, at least, is what a trainer told me, in his efforts to be hired.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:02 AM on June 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

Response by poster: Thanks for all the anecdata! Was entirely unsure of what was average and had no baseline for comparison.

I suppose in my case, if the legs are right next to each other the toes are about a 2:00, but the comfiest position is more wide-set (enough room for a dachshund) wherein the sides of my knees and feet will touch the mattress; I guess that's that she was commenting on. I do have some history of dance, and pigeon pose in yoga is super comfortable, so it's probably just my noodly limbs being themselves.
posted by lesser weasel at 6:06 AM on June 5, 2017

I just spoke to a friend who's a very serious career modern dancer (uh, strong hips): She says when she lies on her back her feet go to about 2-3 o'clock.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 6:21 AM on June 5, 2017 [2 favorites]

Best answer: I think it can be a sign of a short piriformis. "Why Walking Like a Duck May Throw Your Body Out of Whack"
and "If Feet Turn Out the Piriformis Muscle is Short" talks a bit about the alignment issues. Just because most of us have that sort of turn-out does not mean it's optimal alignment.
posted by lazuli at 9:54 AM on June 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

On seeing your follow-up: That second link I posted pointed out it can also be a sign of an overly-loose piriformis.
posted by lazuli at 9:55 AM on June 5, 2017

Best answer: Is it really so terrible for my legs if they turn outwards while relaxed?


I don't think it's a sign of anything terrible if your feet turn out a bit when you are relaxed. "Weak hip muscles"? More like a sign of tension in the muscles that they aren't able to relax.

However, even if it was... it sounds like this was meant to indicate it could be a possible sign of other issues, not "don't do this because it will cause issues".

Some people intentionally sleep with their legs turned to the side while on their back, in an attempt to increase their flexibility.
posted by yohko at 2:39 PM on June 5, 2017

Another data point: Lebron James, one of the greatest athletes to ever live and subject of multi-million dollar training and wellness practices, walks and runs with a very pronounced toes-out foot position.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:18 PM on June 5, 2017

Response by poster: lazuli: just to check, was your second URL this article? The html didn't work but googling the article title gave me one decent hit.
posted by lesser weasel at 5:32 PM on June 5, 2017

lazuli: just to check, was your second URL this article? The html didn't work but googling the article title gave me one decent hit.

Oops, yes, that was what I meant to link.
posted by lazuli at 7:06 PM on June 5, 2017

Best answer: Your massage therapist was not just making things up or talking nonsense. He or she was oversimplifying.

At rest, the hip should, depending on the position of the joint (open or loose packed) be between 0-15 degrees externally rotated. Visually, this will look like your toes pointing straight up or very slightly out, assuming the rest of your musculature is functioning properly.

Here's some information on your hip's anatomy.

If your toes point out dramatically while you lie down, it indicates probable hypertonicity of the lateral and/or posterior prime movers and synergist muscle groupings and weakness in their anterior and/or medial antagonists. Whether or not this is a problem for you is something you alone can decide but it is not the anatomic "ideal" and has the potential to cause problems.

Here is a quick rundown of hip kinesiology.

We do go to school for this stuff.
posted by windykites at 9:46 PM on June 5, 2017 [3 favorites]