Tell me about disagreements in Christianity
June 4, 2017 5:44 AM Subscribe
Following the recent Islamic extremist attacks in the UK, a narrative has come from the far right that somehow all Muslims think the same way and believe the same things. It seems that western societies are open to the idea of variation and disagreement within Christian culture, but tend to see Islamic cultures as homogenous.
What examples are there of major disagreements within Christianity?
The kind of thing I'm looking for would be South Africa during apartheid, when Christians used the Bible to justify apartheid policies at the same time as Christians like Desmond Tutu used the Bible to argue against them; and the schism in the Anglican church over homosexuality.
It would be particularly useful to have examples of conflicts where both sides thought their religion justified their position.
Thank you!
The kind of thing I'm looking for would be South Africa during apartheid, when Christians used the Bible to justify apartheid policies at the same time as Christians like Desmond Tutu used the Bible to argue against them; and the schism in the Anglican church over homosexuality.
It would be particularly useful to have examples of conflicts where both sides thought their religion justified their position.
Thank you!
Same sex marriage is a major fault line right now. Less recently (but still more current than one would hope), you have the biblical arguments for and against slavery as expressed by American churches in various states.
A more established division that is less politically touchy is the various factions' views on saints. The wikipedia page on saints has lengthy explanations of how wide the range is. In my evangelical tradition, there is no canonization process and one would never pray to anyone other than God Himself. Most other strains of Christianity treat saints very differently.
This second kind of division is helpful when you need an example that doesn't immediately lead into an argument about race or sexuality. Evangelicals generally recognize that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are Christians, and that they are very different from them. So they may be more able to draw an analogy between that and Sunni/Shia without the distraction of who is "right".
posted by sadmadglad at 6:31 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
A more established division that is less politically touchy is the various factions' views on saints. The wikipedia page on saints has lengthy explanations of how wide the range is. In my evangelical tradition, there is no canonization process and one would never pray to anyone other than God Himself. Most other strains of Christianity treat saints very differently.
This second kind of division is helpful when you need an example that doesn't immediately lead into an argument about race or sexuality. Evangelicals generally recognize that Catholic and Orthodox Christians are Christians, and that they are very different from them. So they may be more able to draw an analogy between that and Sunni/Shia without the distraction of who is "right".
posted by sadmadglad at 6:31 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the US, there were a lot of fervent and sincere Christians among both abolitionists and defenders of slavery. Both used religion to argue for their positions. Present-day Christians tend to focus a lot on Christian abolitionism and have a lot less to say about Christian justifications for slavery, which I guess isn't surprising.
Similarly, many civil rights activists in the US were Christians, and black churches were huge centers of civil rights organizing. But many white Christians opposed civil rights for black people, and white religious denominations developed elaborate justifications for segregation and other violations of black people's civil rights. (It's probably worth saying that there were also white Christians in the civil rights movement, although they were vastly outnumbered by white Christians segregationists and white Christians who didn't take any stand.)
Honestly, throughout US history, you can find Christians on both sides of most major debates. Pacifist denominations like the Quakers and Mennonites have been really important to anti-war movements in the US, but many churches have also used Christianity to justify militarism and war. Christian activists have been really important to anti-death-penalty activism, but an awful lot of Christians would tell you that the Bible condones capital punishment. Some Christians use their religion to argue for economic justice, and others use it to argue against government intervention to level the economic playing field.
And that's not even getting into purely theological divisions, which exist both within and between particular denominations. These can have to do with things like whether religious authority comes only from Scripture or also from other sources; who is qualified to interpret religious questions; what happens after we die and why particular people get saved or condemned; what kinds of religious rituals are correct; at what age people should be baptized; etc., etc., etc. Some of these questions have obvious political implications, but a lot of them don't and might seem trivial to people outside the faith. They may still have great import and be genuinely divisive to believing Christians.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:43 AM on June 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Similarly, many civil rights activists in the US were Christians, and black churches were huge centers of civil rights organizing. But many white Christians opposed civil rights for black people, and white religious denominations developed elaborate justifications for segregation and other violations of black people's civil rights. (It's probably worth saying that there were also white Christians in the civil rights movement, although they were vastly outnumbered by white Christians segregationists and white Christians who didn't take any stand.)
Honestly, throughout US history, you can find Christians on both sides of most major debates. Pacifist denominations like the Quakers and Mennonites have been really important to anti-war movements in the US, but many churches have also used Christianity to justify militarism and war. Christian activists have been really important to anti-death-penalty activism, but an awful lot of Christians would tell you that the Bible condones capital punishment. Some Christians use their religion to argue for economic justice, and others use it to argue against government intervention to level the economic playing field.
And that's not even getting into purely theological divisions, which exist both within and between particular denominations. These can have to do with things like whether religious authority comes only from Scripture or also from other sources; who is qualified to interpret religious questions; what happens after we die and why particular people get saved or condemned; what kinds of religious rituals are correct; at what age people should be baptized; etc., etc., etc. Some of these questions have obvious political implications, but a lot of them don't and might seem trivial to people outside the faith. They may still have great import and be genuinely divisive to believing Christians.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:43 AM on June 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
The Prosperity Gospel is extremely controversial. And really the general idea of an Elect who have been predetermined to be saved, which originated in Calvinism and has been used to justify a lot of beliefs that seem un-Christian to a lot of people.
posted by empath at 6:49 AM on June 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by empath at 6:49 AM on June 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Some Christians believe God put animals on earth for people to eat. Others argue that veganism is the truly Christian way of life. For a lengthy support of the latter, see Matthew Scully's book Dominion. Scully, by the way, is a Republican speechwriter, so this view goes beyond the traditional left/right divide.
There is huge variation in attitudes toward gender roles. Some Christians still follow the Biblical injunction that wives are to obey their husbands. Others believe the sexes should be treated equally.
There are also great differences in how to view the Bible. Fundamentalists frequently believe it should be taken literally as God's word. Catholics view it as one of several important sources - others are tradition and the individual's conscience. There are lots of variations.
posted by FencingGal at 7:15 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is huge variation in attitudes toward gender roles. Some Christians still follow the Biblical injunction that wives are to obey their husbands. Others believe the sexes should be treated equally.
There are also great differences in how to view the Bible. Fundamentalists frequently believe it should be taken literally as God's word. Catholics view it as one of several important sources - others are tradition and the individual's conscience. There are lots of variations.
posted by FencingGal at 7:15 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
For starters (even before the prosperity gospel), I'll go with Slavery, Sabbath, War and Women.
Christian scriptures have been used for opposing positions for each of thes areas. This list by no means exhaustive.
posted by rw at 7:15 AM on June 4, 2017
Christian scriptures have been used for opposing positions for each of thes areas. This list by no means exhaustive.
posted by rw at 7:15 AM on June 4, 2017
Just about every Christian sect represents a disagreement which could not be resolved and resulted in a group of people creating a new sect/denomination. There are many ideas which are controversial among different groups of Christians. Sometimes people can have disagreements and still remain in the same church or denomination, sometimes a group picks up their toys and builds a new church of the same type down the street, or starts a whole new denomination. Or depending on the time period, were branded as heretics and maybe killed.
Examples of controversies or variance in beliefs:
* Should musical instruments be used for worship services
* Once you are saved, it is possible to fall from grace and return to an unsaved state
* Should Christians be more focused on saving people from hell, or on helping people who are in need right now
* Is a baptism legit if you don't go all the way under water
* Is dancing permissible
* Is fasting necessary
* Does communion become the body and blood of christ when you partake
* What is necessary to avoid hell
* Is that bit about "picking up the serpents" intended literally
* What should women be allowed to wear
* Who is going to hell
* Is the Trinity legit
* Will god really send you to hell if you've never even heard of jesus
* Who is responsible for an individual's spiritual growth
Etc. etc etc. I'm not a religious scholar - I just live in the bible belt which has tons of religious factions - and I could probably come up with a hundred easily.
posted by bunderful at 7:17 AM on June 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
Examples of controversies or variance in beliefs:
* Should musical instruments be used for worship services
* Once you are saved, it is possible to fall from grace and return to an unsaved state
* Should Christians be more focused on saving people from hell, or on helping people who are in need right now
* Is a baptism legit if you don't go all the way under water
* Is dancing permissible
* Is fasting necessary
* Does communion become the body and blood of christ when you partake
* What is necessary to avoid hell
* Is that bit about "picking up the serpents" intended literally
* What should women be allowed to wear
* Who is going to hell
* Is the Trinity legit
* Will god really send you to hell if you've never even heard of jesus
* Who is responsible for an individual's spiritual growth
Etc. etc etc. I'm not a religious scholar - I just live in the bible belt which has tons of religious factions - and I could probably come up with a hundred easily.
posted by bunderful at 7:17 AM on June 4, 2017 [11 favorites]
The Wikipedia article on sectarian violence among Christians has plenty of historical examples of Christian conflicts that became violent. In casual conversation I find The Troubles in Ireland is a useful quick reference point about how close to home internecine religious conflict can be.
posted by Nelson at 7:40 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Nelson at 7:40 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
For relatively recent examples of Catholics and Protestants mudering each other, including the bombing of civilians, google "Northern Ireland troubles." I know that wasn't considered a strictly religious conflict, but it often played out that way. And you did have some US citizens helping to finance the terror.
posted by FencingGal at 7:58 AM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by FencingGal at 7:58 AM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sorry - I didn't see that Nelson beat me to it.
posted by FencingGal at 8:04 AM on June 4, 2017
posted by FencingGal at 8:04 AM on June 4, 2017
Ordination of women. Most mainline Protestant churches are fine with it, Roman Catholics are not....yet.
posted by mermayd at 8:13 AM on June 4, 2017
posted by mermayd at 8:13 AM on June 4, 2017
Fenians were Christian (Catholic) Americans that attacked Christian (Protestant and Catholic) Canada in five famous Fenian Raids. All raids failed (which Canadians joke is why few Americans are taught about them). Although it was nominally religiously motivated, like all religious conflicts it was really about power. The US Government turned a blind eye (or even encouraged) the raids.
posted by saucysault at 8:32 AM on June 4, 2017
posted by saucysault at 8:32 AM on June 4, 2017
There is no crime for those who have Christ By Michael Gaddis
posted by SyraCarol at 8:48 AM on June 4, 2017
posted by SyraCarol at 8:48 AM on June 4, 2017
The question of authority eventually split what are now at the orthodox and Catholic churches, which is pretty similar to the dispute That split the Shi'ia and Sunni denominations.
Christianity has a very long history of intra- and inter-religious violence both on the individual and state levels. Most religions do, although there seems to be evidence that aggrieved masculinity is more of a driver than deep religious feeling.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Christianity has a very long history of intra- and inter-religious violence both on the individual and state levels. Most religions do, although there seems to be evidence that aggrieved masculinity is more of a driver than deep religious feeling.
posted by GenjiandProust at 8:56 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The current refugee crisis has Christians arguing for their pro- or anti- refugee position Biblically.
Abortion is another issue that has seen Christian, religious arguments on both the pro- and anti- side. Euthanasia as well. The abortion debates in particular have historically gotten pretty extreme, even violent.
posted by windykites at 9:05 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Abortion is another issue that has seen Christian, religious arguments on both the pro- and anti- side. Euthanasia as well. The abortion debates in particular have historically gotten pretty extreme, even violent.
posted by windykites at 9:05 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
A lot of the Russia and associated countries conflict is propagandised as Christian vs Muslim new crusade type movements domestically when convenient and that's believed fervently by people locally. There's some horrific violence going on right now under the guise of moral orthodox christianity, and it's highly controversial, both in and outside of the Orthodox church and with church clergy and laity. An interesting look into it is the current controversial debate on whether or not to recognise the local sainthood of a young Russian soldier Yevgeny Rodionov, possibly martyred a few years ago.
Theological disagreements can seem abstruse and pointlessly tiny - the filoque controversy which is about whether we say and or of the Holy Spirit - but they often logically spin out into very large statements about important issues. In this case, enough to split much of Western civilisation.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:08 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Theological disagreements can seem abstruse and pointlessly tiny - the filoque controversy which is about whether we say and or of the Holy Spirit - but they often logically spin out into very large statements about important issues. In this case, enough to split much of Western civilisation.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:08 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Christian terrorism - Wikipedia article, includes a section on anti-abortion violence.
posted by bunderful at 9:20 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by bunderful at 9:20 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Having said that, even WBs have never driven a truck through a crowd or blown up themselves and a hundred people shouting, "Jesus Akkbar!" or some such related war cry.
You have a short memory, buddy.
posted by praemunire at 9:26 AM on June 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
You have a short memory, buddy.
posted by praemunire at 9:26 AM on June 4, 2017 [6 favorites]
Everyone's familiar with the Christians who oppose abortion on religious grounds. People are generally less familiar with Christians who make religious arguments for abortion.
posted by cnidaria at 9:59 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by cnidaria at 9:59 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Have you considered the American Civil War? God was on everybody's side.
posted by mule98J at 10:04 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mule98J at 10:04 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Step 1: Wikipedia's List of Christian Heresies. Note that all of Protestantism is lumped together.
Step 2: Historical Protestant schisms:
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:45 AM on June 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Step 2: Historical Protestant schisms:
- Transubstatiation, Real Presence, Symbolism, Consubstatiation, etc.
- Predestination
- Infant baptism vs. adult baptism (Anabaptists first, then regular Baptists et al.)
- Should we only sing the Psalms, or can we sing other songs?
- Whether believers should participate in politics and/or military service
- Forms of church polity: episcopal, presbyterian, congregational
- Trinitarianism vs. Unitarianism
- Slavery: God's Plan or Abomination?
- Instrumental Music: God's Plan or Awful Heresy?
- Hey, this guy Joseph Smith says there's more scripture. Is there?
- Should there be an established church, or can I be free to leave and form my own church if I want to be stricter?
- Can women participate in services/be ordained as ministers?
- What about gay people?
- Should black people go to this church, or should they go to their own churches? (Really happened in the 1960's)
- Should the organized church hierarchy divest from companies associated with the state of Israel, or should we even have a policy on this?
- How ecumenical should we be?
- Is abortion a mortal sin, or less so? How hard should we work to reduce it and/or prohibit it?
- Is birth control OK? What if we just say it's not, and then use birth control anyway?
- And the perennial: When is the second coming? Do we think there's a Rapture or not?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 11:45 AM on June 4, 2017 [3 favorites]
Huffy Puffy's approach is very sound, but I'd point out that the wiki list of heresies misses out Lollardy (they were absorbed into Protestantism, but since they predate Luther by over a century are definitely different), so I suspect that even that great long list is not comprehensive.
That point in 1054 where the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other is a personal favourite (yes, yes, technically it was only the papal legates who were excommunicated, but it's the thought that counts) - definitely both felt god was on their side. As did all the Antipopes.
posted by Vortisaur at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
That point in 1054 where the Pope and the Patriarch of Constantinople excommunicated each other is a personal favourite (yes, yes, technically it was only the papal legates who were excommunicated, but it's the thought that counts) - definitely both felt god was on their side. As did all the Antipopes.
posted by Vortisaur at 2:29 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just ask any two Christians - "so, what exactly is the Trinity?" and you're off to the races.
posted by Devonian at 2:40 PM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Devonian at 2:40 PM on June 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
Some christians are creationists and others support evolution.
posted by Toddles at 2:57 PM on June 4, 2017
posted by Toddles at 2:57 PM on June 4, 2017
My birthplace is the site of a schism in the Catholic church.
PolishNational Catholic Church
My people (Irish-Catholics from Scranton), say that the reason for the breakup was that the Polish priests wated to get married, but the Wikipedia article imples that the Polish parishes thought that the Irish and German people had too much control.
Either way, the church that was the site of the big breakup, Sacred Heart, will probably be the last church open in the diocese of Scranton, just out of spite. Our people do not like to admit we could have been wrong. Saint Stanislaus, the PNCC cathedral, was about 3 blocks away from my house growing up and unfortunately my Irish Catholic family continued to hold a grudge and talk shit about "those people" and thier halushki and pierogi.
People will always find ways to hate eachother.
posted by elvissa at 7:11 PM on June 4, 2017
PolishNational Catholic Church
My people (Irish-Catholics from Scranton), say that the reason for the breakup was that the Polish priests wated to get married, but the Wikipedia article imples that the Polish parishes thought that the Irish and German people had too much control.
Either way, the church that was the site of the big breakup, Sacred Heart, will probably be the last church open in the diocese of Scranton, just out of spite. Our people do not like to admit we could have been wrong. Saint Stanislaus, the PNCC cathedral, was about 3 blocks away from my house growing up and unfortunately my Irish Catholic family continued to hold a grudge and talk shit about "those people" and thier halushki and pierogi.
People will always find ways to hate eachother.
posted by elvissa at 7:11 PM on June 4, 2017
Faith vs. good deeds
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:31 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:31 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
As Gibbon pointed out, more Christians have been killed by other Christians over matters of faith than were ever made martyrs by the pagan emperors.
One medieval example is the disagreement between the standard doctrine that God ordained an ordered society with kings, priests, nobles and peasants, and the opposing idea (also from the Bible) that God intended everyone to be equal. It resulted in a number of bloody wars: The Peasants' Revolt in England ("When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman?"), the Levellers and Diggers in the English Civil War, and the theology of Thomas Müntzer in the German Peasants' War being prominent examples.
Considering your framing, I'm surprised that your question isn't about examples of intra-Islamic disagreements, of which there are also plenty.
posted by clawsoon at 7:38 PM on June 4, 2017
One medieval example is the disagreement between the standard doctrine that God ordained an ordered society with kings, priests, nobles and peasants, and the opposing idea (also from the Bible) that God intended everyone to be equal. It resulted in a number of bloody wars: The Peasants' Revolt in England ("When Adam delved and Eve span, Who was then the gentleman?"), the Levellers and Diggers in the English Civil War, and the theology of Thomas Müntzer in the German Peasants' War being prominent examples.
Considering your framing, I'm surprised that your question isn't about examples of intra-Islamic disagreements, of which there are also plenty.
posted by clawsoon at 7:38 PM on June 4, 2017
The Cathar sect was the prevailing faith in southern France during the 11-1200s. They had their own network of ordained clergy, and nobles who made Catharism the established religion of their lands. The Catholic Church declared a crusade against them, which set Northern France against the linguistically and culturally different South. It took 20 years of war and another hundred years of the Inquisition to root out Catharism.
The Hussites were for much of the early-to-mid 1400s the dominant religion in Bohemia (part of the modern-day Czech Republic). The Catholic establishment declared five crusades against them; the Hussites fought them all off. The Hussite faith split into sects, one of which assimilated with the Catholics after winning some doctrinal concessions from them; the rest were forced underground in the 1600s.
The Papal Schism, forty years during which there were two or occasionally three Popes at once, is another good example of a dispute within Christianity.
Earlier, in Constantinople, the Eastern Church had its own troubles with Arianism in the 300s and then Monophysitism in the 400s, leading to this funny story in 484.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:20 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Hussites were for much of the early-to-mid 1400s the dominant religion in Bohemia (part of the modern-day Czech Republic). The Catholic establishment declared five crusades against them; the Hussites fought them all off. The Hussite faith split into sects, one of which assimilated with the Catholics after winning some doctrinal concessions from them; the rest were forced underground in the 1600s.
The Papal Schism, forty years during which there were two or occasionally three Popes at once, is another good example of a dispute within Christianity.
Earlier, in Constantinople, the Eastern Church had its own troubles with Arianism in the 300s and then Monophysitism in the 400s, leading to this funny story in 484.
posted by Pallas Athena at 8:20 PM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Early protestantism was wildly radical and heavy on the revolutionary messages, and this frequently resulted in outright war in Europe. For a great coverage of the Anabaptist occupation of Münster, check out the Hardcore Histories Podcast segment on it. But do be quick, as it's the next one to age out behind the paywall when Dan publishes a new episode!
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:22 AM on June 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 6:22 AM on June 8, 2017 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by amtho at 6:01 AM on June 4, 2017 [1 favorite]