He wants to be a lawyer, and thinks that cost is not an issue
May 22, 2017 9:24 AM Subscribe
My friend's son (1/2 way thru undergraduate school, paid for) wants to be lawyer. Not sure what type, but likes drama and money, (F Lee Bailey) and is smart and clever. .
He says that he'll get in Fordham e.g., get assistance, make $160,000 the 1st year, so can pay back loans. Does not think the Loan Crisis is an issue for him. No mention of jobs while in school. We pointed out the recession and the difficulty of many professionals, laid-off and unable to pay their loans. Offered to set him up w/ some lawyers to talk to. The whole thing is vague and ignorant of finances, and he gets defensive when questioned. We want to be supportive, but still get him to understand these choices and implications fuller.
He says that he'll get in Fordham e.g., get assistance, make $160,000 the 1st year, so can pay back loans. Does not think the Loan Crisis is an issue for him. No mention of jobs while in school. We pointed out the recession and the difficulty of many professionals, laid-off and unable to pay their loans. Offered to set him up w/ some lawyers to talk to. The whole thing is vague and ignorant of finances, and he gets defensive when questioned. We want to be supportive, but still get him to understand these choices and implications fuller.
Response by poster: Whoa. They asked my advice. And he and I have talked.
posted by ebesan at 9:32 AM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by ebesan at 9:32 AM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
He can make up his own mind. However! One thing I wish I'd done was take a gap year between college and additional training, or even two, and done related work in the field in which I later trained. Training field did not work out, and this would have been predictable with a year or two of real life.
If he does pre-law now and takes a year or two off to work in some kind of area that touches upon law, he will still be able to deep six the lawyer plan or else embark on it with greater realism.
I think people should be able to make up their own minds, but honestly, I look back and wish I'd had the knowledge to make better choices. I was scared, also, and did not want to look as closely at my plan as I should have. If you are a glib and clever person, it is easy to do this.
posted by Frowner at 9:34 AM on May 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
If he does pre-law now and takes a year or two off to work in some kind of area that touches upon law, he will still be able to deep six the lawyer plan or else embark on it with greater realism.
I think people should be able to make up their own minds, but honestly, I look back and wish I'd had the knowledge to make better choices. I was scared, also, and did not want to look as closely at my plan as I should have. If you are a glib and clever person, it is easy to do this.
posted by Frowner at 9:34 AM on May 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
If he has a high GPA and gets a high LSAT score, he can, in fact, get into Fordham with assistance. Law School Numbers is a great site for stats. Top Law Schools is a great forum full of applicants discussing their stats and chances, and the site's overall bent is "do not get into debt". They also have great information and discussions about hiring rates out of various law schools.
posted by xo at 9:40 AM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by xo at 9:40 AM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
Having any kind of strong goal and being willing to work for it is a very powerful thing. He's motivated, which means he'll do a lot more than he would otherwise. If he realizes that success in this requires it, that inspiration will become a great work ethic, grades, extracurricular activities, connection with other strongly-motivated people, and success in whatever he eventually ends up doing.
So, I wouldn't discourage him. Rather than ask whether he should do it, ask _how_ he should do it in the most responsible and robust way possible.
posted by amtho at 9:41 AM on May 22, 2017
So, I wouldn't discourage him. Rather than ask whether he should do it, ask _how_ he should do it in the most responsible and robust way possible.
posted by amtho at 9:41 AM on May 22, 2017
What is the problem? It sounds like he wants to be a lawyer. There are far worse goals. I don't understand your angle here. Do you think he is burying his head in the sand WRT loans and will graduate in financial ruin? I am not trying to be snarky, just trying to parse together what your goal is.
posted by pintapicasso at 9:52 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by pintapicasso at 9:52 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do you think he is smart and dedicated enough to finish law school and pass the bar? Because if so, this is not really a problem. If you think he'd likely flunk out that that's a different conversation.
posted by lydhre at 9:57 AM on May 22, 2017
posted by lydhre at 9:57 AM on May 22, 2017
What is the problem? It sounds like he wants to be a lawyer. There are far worse goals. I don't understand your angle here. Do you think he is burying his head in the sand WRT loans and will graduate in financial ruin? I am not trying to be snarky, just trying to parse together what your goal is.
About 75% of the time when people come on Ask and say they're thinking about going to law school, the overwhelming response is "for the love of god stop before you ruin your life," second only to questions about applying to library school.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 AM on May 22, 2017 [25 favorites]
About 75% of the time when people come on Ask and say they're thinking about going to law school, the overwhelming response is "for the love of god stop before you ruin your life," second only to questions about applying to library school.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 AM on May 22, 2017 [25 favorites]
I would encourage the angle of having him arrange informational interviews with lawyers who do the work he thinks he wants to do, to get a clearer picture of what the market's going to look like in 5-6 years. If he cannot follow through and make that happen, he does not have the instincts it takes to be/withstand being a lawyer in the current professional client.
Ultimately, obviously, he'll do what he wants and has the means to do, but there's probably no single reality check better than talking to someone already doing the job, whose opinion he will respect.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:58 AM on May 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
Ultimately, obviously, he'll do what he wants and has the means to do, but there's probably no single reality check better than talking to someone already doing the job, whose opinion he will respect.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:58 AM on May 22, 2017 [7 favorites]
So I'm going to limit my answer to what I think your subtext is here, although it's hard to tell: does this young man have a realistic idea of what it's like to go to law school and be a lawyer? Short answer: Nope. Nope nope nope.
First off, the assumption that he'll make $160,000 right out of law school is...not well-founded. Assuming that he's at the top of his class, he might get a job at a large firm, but it's far from a foregone conclusion. Those jobs are getting more and more competitive right now, as the Great Recession did a serious number on law firm bottom lines, and they're simply not hiring at the rates they used to before 2008. Check this article from a year ago. The stats for law firm hiring are slightly better than they have been for the past seven or so years, but only slightly better, and the US legal market as a whole contracted in March 2017.
And he thinks he's going to pay off law school loans the first year out? No. You don't pay off law school loans one year out, even on a $160,000 salary, even if that's actually your salary. If he takes out loans each year for tuition and living expenses, that's at least $200,000 of debt immediately. Even calculating generously -- say, tuition only, and his parents cover living expenses -- that's $150,000 in debt. And that's the principal.
It sounds to me as though this young man has a very unrealistic idea of what he's getting himself into. And stated bluntly: Fordham Law will be chock full of smart and clever young people; if he's relying on "smart and clever" to get him a BigLaw job, he's probably going to be pretty disappointed. That goes double if he thinks he wants to be a lawyer because likes drama, money, and F. Lee Bailey (!).** Based on the information you've given here, especially given the fact that he gets defensive when asked about his actual concrete plans, I would say he's a very poor candidate for law school.
**If he doesn't already know, you might want to tell him that Bailey was disbarred from both jurisdictions he was admitted, in 2001 and 2003. If that's who he's modeling himself after, god help him.
posted by holborne at 9:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [24 favorites]
First off, the assumption that he'll make $160,000 right out of law school is...not well-founded. Assuming that he's at the top of his class, he might get a job at a large firm, but it's far from a foregone conclusion. Those jobs are getting more and more competitive right now, as the Great Recession did a serious number on law firm bottom lines, and they're simply not hiring at the rates they used to before 2008. Check this article from a year ago. The stats for law firm hiring are slightly better than they have been for the past seven or so years, but only slightly better, and the US legal market as a whole contracted in March 2017.
And he thinks he's going to pay off law school loans the first year out? No. You don't pay off law school loans one year out, even on a $160,000 salary, even if that's actually your salary. If he takes out loans each year for tuition and living expenses, that's at least $200,000 of debt immediately. Even calculating generously -- say, tuition only, and his parents cover living expenses -- that's $150,000 in debt. And that's the principal.
It sounds to me as though this young man has a very unrealistic idea of what he's getting himself into. And stated bluntly: Fordham Law will be chock full of smart and clever young people; if he's relying on "smart and clever" to get him a BigLaw job, he's probably going to be pretty disappointed. That goes double if he thinks he wants to be a lawyer because likes drama, money, and F. Lee Bailey (!).** Based on the information you've given here, especially given the fact that he gets defensive when asked about his actual concrete plans, I would say he's a very poor candidate for law school.
**If he doesn't already know, you might want to tell him that Bailey was disbarred from both jurisdictions he was admitted, in 2001 and 2003. If that's who he's modeling himself after, god help him.
posted by holborne at 9:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [24 favorites]
That being said - I would try to get him to talk to lawyers without the associated "so that they can talk you out of it" angle. Literally everyone should talk to people in their chosen field before starting out, and honestly that's something that undergrad really sucks at providing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Google lawyers and bimodal distribution of salaries - you'll get stuff like this. The whole "$160k per year" thing is one end of the barbell, but many (most) people do not land on that end. The main thing that puts people on the high end of the bimodal curve is which law school they went to. If you're not going to a top-X school (top 20, top 30, debatable), you very likely are not going to end up on the high end of the salary chart. So, a lot of this turns on whether this person has the grades and LSAT to make a top-X school possible.
posted by Mid at 10:03 AM on May 22, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Mid at 10:03 AM on May 22, 2017 [6 favorites]
I hate to ever have to say something like this, but your aspiring lawyer should read more internet.
posted by rhizome at 10:04 AM on May 22, 2017
posted by rhizome at 10:04 AM on May 22, 2017
He should talk to lawyers and ideally get a job at a law office for a while. It is not a lot of drama. He should totally be a lawyer if he loves the work.
(I come from a family of lawyers and worked in a law office to support myself through college and the day-to-day of a lawyer is my idea of hell. My sister is a lawyer and followed a path that, if she asked here about it, would have inspired a chorus of horrified screams. And yet, it's her true calling, she works insanely hard at her dream job, and still makes very little money. She's thrilled with her career.)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:06 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
(I come from a family of lawyers and worked in a law office to support myself through college and the day-to-day of a lawyer is my idea of hell. My sister is a lawyer and followed a path that, if she asked here about it, would have inspired a chorus of horrified screams. And yet, it's her true calling, she works insanely hard at her dream job, and still makes very little money. She's thrilled with her career.)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 10:06 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Not trying to be discouraging at all . He is very motivated. But his parents are very concerned about money and the student debt crisis. His school will provide him with Good Counseling, but the parents want to understand money and job prospects better in this area, so they can have a more thorough discussion with him
posted by ebesan at 10:06 AM on May 22, 2017
posted by ebesan at 10:06 AM on May 22, 2017
My mistake: I actually linked to the wrong article from the NYT (although the one I linked to does note that BigLaw jobs are drying up). This is the one I meant, from April 2015. It's about a Columbia Law grad (a higher-ranked school than Fordham).
posted by holborne at 10:07 AM on May 22, 2017
posted by holborne at 10:07 AM on May 22, 2017
So uh as a college student who knows a lot of... somewhat deluded fellow college students (hell, I've been one): I think the defensiveness is usually the result of feeling trapped. Being a lawyer is pretty much the only option given to bright ambitious liberal arts majors who want to make money but aren't attending Ivy League universities. The only other option presented is "take whatever job that will have you and maybe by the end of your twenties you'll make a living wage."
People live in fantasy because the real world is too difficult to face. The solution is to offer an alternative. What are some career paths that you think would work well for him? Why do you think they'll be better than being a lawyer? If you present it as, "doing X or Y will be better than being a lawyer, and here are the reasons why" instead of just "being a lawyer is a bad idea and here are the reasons why" then you might make more headway.
Also: If he's smart and privileged, he's probably spent all his high school and college years effortlessly getting what other people have had to struggle for, and assumes that will also apply to getting into law school and getting a good job, so anecdotes of struggling lawyers are not likely to work for him- he'll assume he's better than that. Give him hard data, like what people in this thread have been giving. Tell him what he can expect, even if things work out well for him.
posted by perplexion at 10:07 AM on May 22, 2017 [29 favorites]
People live in fantasy because the real world is too difficult to face. The solution is to offer an alternative. What are some career paths that you think would work well for him? Why do you think they'll be better than being a lawyer? If you present it as, "doing X or Y will be better than being a lawyer, and here are the reasons why" instead of just "being a lawyer is a bad idea and here are the reasons why" then you might make more headway.
Also: If he's smart and privileged, he's probably spent all his high school and college years effortlessly getting what other people have had to struggle for, and assumes that will also apply to getting into law school and getting a good job, so anecdotes of struggling lawyers are not likely to work for him- he'll assume he's better than that. Give him hard data, like what people in this thread have been giving. Tell him what he can expect, even if things work out well for him.
posted by perplexion at 10:07 AM on May 22, 2017 [29 favorites]
I generally think of the starting $160k as a BigLaw salary, which is great money if you can get it, but out of reach of most. Fordham has a good local reputation, and I worked with some good Fordham JDs when I practiced in NYC. But that was pre-crash, and everything is a lot harder now (though much better than it was for the class of 2009, poor souls).
But while Fordham may be sending fewer grads to big law, it's the kind of school that, if you have gumption, you can set up your own shop and get court appointments and chase ambulances and hit the ground running. It's a more practical education than I got in my top-ranked school. If he gets out of undergrad with no loans and can swing scholarships to Fordham, he might have a better start than many (I graduated from law school with over $100k in debt, though I did get one of those $160k jobs). As noted above, law is highly bimodal--there's a bunch making $160 to start, and a greater number making, like $40k. Which may be a good salary, providing your expenses low and your loan payments nonexistent.
But if all he would want to do is entertainment law, I'd certainly advise against borrowing to go to law school. It's just a dicey proposition. But if he's got hustle, and would litigate DUIs, hey, maybe.
I think cleverness is overrated for law school. It's a lot of rote memorization and grinding away.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:12 AM on May 22, 2017 [10 favorites]
But while Fordham may be sending fewer grads to big law, it's the kind of school that, if you have gumption, you can set up your own shop and get court appointments and chase ambulances and hit the ground running. It's a more practical education than I got in my top-ranked school. If he gets out of undergrad with no loans and can swing scholarships to Fordham, he might have a better start than many (I graduated from law school with over $100k in debt, though I did get one of those $160k jobs). As noted above, law is highly bimodal--there's a bunch making $160 to start, and a greater number making, like $40k. Which may be a good salary, providing your expenses low and your loan payments nonexistent.
But if all he would want to do is entertainment law, I'd certainly advise against borrowing to go to law school. It's just a dicey proposition. But if he's got hustle, and would litigate DUIs, hey, maybe.
I think cleverness is overrated for law school. It's a lot of rote memorization and grinding away.
posted by Admiral Haddock at 10:12 AM on May 22, 2017 [10 favorites]
Is Fordham a name he pulled from a hat, or does he look at his grades and LSAT and see Fordham as the best school he can get into? I have great respect for Fordham -- wonderful faculty, and terrific alumni -- but the reality is that no one should go to a school at Fordham's ranking at ANYTHING approaching its full cost quote in debt unless you have some plus factor clearly in hand: family member who is a prominent NY lawyer or client of NY law firms, monster interviewer (looks & charisma), or very value added undergrad (either an Ivy or a varsity athlete).
posted by MattD at 10:19 AM on May 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 10:19 AM on May 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
1/2 way through undergrad? So he's what, 19? 20? Of course he gets fussy and defensive when his plans/ ideas are questioned, especially by his parents.
I hate to say it, but he might just need to make this potential mistake on his own. I doubt if his parents and parents' friends will be able to convince him otherwise. Pushing will probably just make him double down harder. If he does change his mind, he'll probably want to do so on his own terms, not because well-meaning parental figures told him to.
He's got two years left before this is even a real issue financially, right? Assuming he maintains the academic standing necessary to pursue this goal throughout this time, it's probably not doing him any harm to work towards it. I'd ease up on trying to convince him that his life plan is unrealistic at this juncture, unless he comes to you specifically asking.
posted by windykites at 10:25 AM on May 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
I hate to say it, but he might just need to make this potential mistake on his own. I doubt if his parents and parents' friends will be able to convince him otherwise. Pushing will probably just make him double down harder. If he does change his mind, he'll probably want to do so on his own terms, not because well-meaning parental figures told him to.
He's got two years left before this is even a real issue financially, right? Assuming he maintains the academic standing necessary to pursue this goal throughout this time, it's probably not doing him any harm to work towards it. I'd ease up on trying to convince him that his life plan is unrealistic at this juncture, unless he comes to you specifically asking.
posted by windykites at 10:25 AM on May 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm a law school dropout, so in general I tend to encourage people not to go to law school. In my experience, most people don't understand what law school really is, i.e. professional training. It seems like a lot of would-be law students think that it's essentially a finishing school for liberal arts majors, a career alchemy that takes a low-earning-potential humanities major and turns them into a highly-paid big shot. Many of them don't seem to have any indication of what a legal career would be like. I always ask these people "would you go to medical school if you didn't want to be a doctor?"
There are a lot of questions unanswered in your original post, though. What kind of student is he? What kind of institution is his undergrad college (e.g., Ivy League, public commuter school, in between)? What legal experience does he have? (I should note that I worked at a law firm for five summers before going to law school, and my mom is a paralegal, so I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what a lawyer did, but even I was surprised.) Has he taken any pre-law classes? Does he know a lawyer who could mentor him? Is he aware that the job market for lawyers is pretty dismal right now? Is he OK making less money than 160k? Doing boring work (because it's all boring work - even dramatically yelling "objection!" in a tense courtroom is pretty boring)? Is he aware that there are practice areas other than criminal law? Would he be OK going to a lower-rated school than Fordham?
I mean, it's entirely possible that this kid is summa cum laude at Princeton and has interned at a white-shoe firm already, and if that's the case, yeah, law school might be a great option.
And, as someone with pretty onerous student loans, don't sweat that so much. Yeah, it's great to avoid them if you can, but they're not a death sentence. Ideally, they're an investment in your future, which, in this case, might actually be true. The worst case scenario (my scenario) is dropping out and being on the hook for a year of loans without the earning potential. Even that is manageable, especially since he doesn't have undergrad loans to worry about.
To be honest, I think the tone of your post ("he should drop the idea because OMG STUDENT LOANS" is how it reads to me) is pretty damn unsupportive. You should be helping him evaluate his options at this point, not popping his balloons because of money. Leave the money issue aside until he really understands whether this is the career path for him. It's highly likely that he'll drop the idea anyway. (Like I said, most people shouldn't go to law school in the first place, and some of them do actually realize this.) And if he really looks into and still wants to be a lawyer, you can figure out the money then.
Seriously, though, lighten up about the money. It's not even your kid.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:29 AM on May 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
There are a lot of questions unanswered in your original post, though. What kind of student is he? What kind of institution is his undergrad college (e.g., Ivy League, public commuter school, in between)? What legal experience does he have? (I should note that I worked at a law firm for five summers before going to law school, and my mom is a paralegal, so I thought I had a pretty good understanding of what a lawyer did, but even I was surprised.) Has he taken any pre-law classes? Does he know a lawyer who could mentor him? Is he aware that the job market for lawyers is pretty dismal right now? Is he OK making less money than 160k? Doing boring work (because it's all boring work - even dramatically yelling "objection!" in a tense courtroom is pretty boring)? Is he aware that there are practice areas other than criminal law? Would he be OK going to a lower-rated school than Fordham?
I mean, it's entirely possible that this kid is summa cum laude at Princeton and has interned at a white-shoe firm already, and if that's the case, yeah, law school might be a great option.
And, as someone with pretty onerous student loans, don't sweat that so much. Yeah, it's great to avoid them if you can, but they're not a death sentence. Ideally, they're an investment in your future, which, in this case, might actually be true. The worst case scenario (my scenario) is dropping out and being on the hook for a year of loans without the earning potential. Even that is manageable, especially since he doesn't have undergrad loans to worry about.
To be honest, I think the tone of your post ("he should drop the idea because OMG STUDENT LOANS" is how it reads to me) is pretty damn unsupportive. You should be helping him evaluate his options at this point, not popping his balloons because of money. Leave the money issue aside until he really understands whether this is the career path for him. It's highly likely that he'll drop the idea anyway. (Like I said, most people shouldn't go to law school in the first place, and some of them do actually realize this.) And if he really looks into and still wants to be a lawyer, you can figure out the money then.
Seriously, though, lighten up about the money. It's not even your kid.
posted by kevinbelt at 10:29 AM on May 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
To back up MattD's comment: I'm not a lawyer, but I've a number of friends that went to law school both at a top 5 school and not, and there's a world of difference between their personal outcomes. I see this in my (science) academic field, where almost everyone is from the same 10 or so schools, either for their PhD or their postdoc. So the advice I give almost everyone is not to do postgraduate work unless you get in one of the top schools. And with law school there's no postdoc second chance, nor the backup option of lots of good jobs in industry.
Or as one of my academic friends puts it: "The way to get into the big time is never to leave it".
posted by overhauser at 10:48 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or as one of my academic friends puts it: "The way to get into the big time is never to leave it".
posted by overhauser at 10:48 AM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
I actually think that the informational interviews with lawyers is a good idea (I'll tell you why in a minute). but I would pitch it as coming from a place of your having accepted he wants to be a lawyer and you want to help him (i.e., don't be like "so I think maybe you may want to talk to a lawyer and see if they can support themselves", be like "Yay, you're going to be a lawyer! Hey, so-and-so's kid just graduated, maybe he can make a recommendation for a school and how to navigate that career path? You know, give you ideas about where to apply for a partnership?")
Because you should be supportive. Realistic, but supportive. If this is what he really wants to do for reasons other than money, you freaking out about money is going to come across like a vote of no confidence (ask the person who wanted to go into theater, and whose parents still occasionally slip up about her not having had a "real job" for those ten years; that still stings). Let the heads-up about money come as constructive "it doesn't pay well, so here is how you can cope with that" advice from someone already in the trenches.
And if he is only motivated by money, someone from the trenches is going to drive that point home really fast. When my brother was about twelve, for a while he was thinking of becoming a psychologist - but he was basing that entirely on the fact that we had a slightly well-off neighbor who was a psychologist himself. Fratricallipygos just saw that Mr. X had a pool and got a cool car and so clearly he had a lot of money, and that's what was motivating my brother. However, that summer Mr. X hired a local neighborhood kid to do some yardwork; the neighborhood kid was someone who was generally looked up to on our street, and had just graduated college. Fratricallipygos and a couple other kids hit him up to give them a couple side tasks for pocket money, and one day when they were all working one of the kids asked him what he'd majored in.
"Psychology," the neighbor kid said.
....And thus ended my brother's plans of being a psychologist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
Because you should be supportive. Realistic, but supportive. If this is what he really wants to do for reasons other than money, you freaking out about money is going to come across like a vote of no confidence (ask the person who wanted to go into theater, and whose parents still occasionally slip up about her not having had a "real job" for those ten years; that still stings). Let the heads-up about money come as constructive "it doesn't pay well, so here is how you can cope with that" advice from someone already in the trenches.
And if he is only motivated by money, someone from the trenches is going to drive that point home really fast. When my brother was about twelve, for a while he was thinking of becoming a psychologist - but he was basing that entirely on the fact that we had a slightly well-off neighbor who was a psychologist himself. Fratricallipygos just saw that Mr. X had a pool and got a cool car and so clearly he had a lot of money, and that's what was motivating my brother. However, that summer Mr. X hired a local neighborhood kid to do some yardwork; the neighborhood kid was someone who was generally looked up to on our street, and had just graduated college. Fratricallipygos and a couple other kids hit him up to give them a couple side tasks for pocket money, and one day when they were all working one of the kids asked him what he'd majored in.
"Psychology," the neighbor kid said.
....And thus ended my brother's plans of being a psychologist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:51 AM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
He says that he'll get in Fordham e.g., get assistance, make $160,000 the 1st year, so can pay back loans.
This is... unlikely.
A ton of other people who are going to law school have the exact same plan, and there are way more people with this plan than jobs to accommodate them. It sounds like he doesn't have a solid grasp of what he's getting into or how it works.
I'm a lawyer. I graduated from a top 20 law school right after the crash. A bunch of my classmates have left the field of law entirely because there are no jobs. The economy is starting to recover, but a lot of attorneys are unemployed or underemployed. It's not likely that he's going to get a job paying that much right out of school unless he goes to a truly top school, graduates in the top ten percent of the class, and also gets very lucky.
Help him get some informational interviews so he can make a more informed decision. One of the things he should be aware of is the time commitment that comes with a job in that pay range, and hopefully meeting people in the field will help him realize that it's not an easy thing to get those jobs. He should also look at the number of document review positions available on craigslist and also read through Subprime JD.
Ultimately what I always say to people considering law school is that the market is terrible and you should not go unless you need it to be happy.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
This is... unlikely.
A ton of other people who are going to law school have the exact same plan, and there are way more people with this plan than jobs to accommodate them. It sounds like he doesn't have a solid grasp of what he's getting into or how it works.
I'm a lawyer. I graduated from a top 20 law school right after the crash. A bunch of my classmates have left the field of law entirely because there are no jobs. The economy is starting to recover, but a lot of attorneys are unemployed or underemployed. It's not likely that he's going to get a job paying that much right out of school unless he goes to a truly top school, graduates in the top ten percent of the class, and also gets very lucky.
Help him get some informational interviews so he can make a more informed decision. One of the things he should be aware of is the time commitment that comes with a job in that pay range, and hopefully meeting people in the field will help him realize that it's not an easy thing to get those jobs. He should also look at the number of document review positions available on craigslist and also read through Subprime JD.
Ultimately what I always say to people considering law school is that the market is terrible and you should not go unless you need it to be happy.
posted by bile and syntax at 10:59 AM on May 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
Talking to actual practicing lawyers is the best advice you can give. Most people have very little idea of what the day-to-day practice of law is like, and whether they'd enjoy it, or can at least tolerate the drudgery as a tradeoff for the aspects they do enjoy.
Following up on that, he needs to see the true numbers of the bimodal salary distribution, and to have a realistic notion of (a) what it takes in law school to get into the right-hand column and (b) what it takes to stay there (see above--he should talk to at least one Biglaw person).
That said: the starting salary is now $180K, everybody, keep up! I graduated from a top school with debt in the $150-$200K range. I paid it off in 6.5 years (ahead, I think, of most of my peers who had similar debt loads), of which a meaningful chunk were clerking, so not at anywhere near a Biglaw income. It was doable. It required keeping my eye on the prize, but I certainly wasn't eating ramen every day. I had some nice vacations, bought some furniture, lived by myself in Manhattan. It helped very much that I didn't intend to buy real estate (not being sure where I'd settle) and I didn't throw a wedding during that time period, which many junior associates are just of the age to do. So while I certainly experienced some lifestyle inflation, none of it was the kind that couldn't be pruned back when the time came.
I was also glad to leave when I did. I learned a lot and worked at a very high level, but that lifestyle is incredibly strenuous. Not having the albatross of debt compelling you to remain does make it easier.
So: the practicality of this career path depends very much on his individual details: grades, GPA. The desirability depends very much on his character. It's not an insane thing to do if you can plot a course that either involves no debt or involves debt taken on to attend the top 5-6 schools, and if you can genuinely identify actual aspects of legal work that you think you might find rewarding. But, assuming no great family wealth, only if.
posted by praemunire at 11:34 AM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
Following up on that, he needs to see the true numbers of the bimodal salary distribution, and to have a realistic notion of (a) what it takes in law school to get into the right-hand column and (b) what it takes to stay there (see above--he should talk to at least one Biglaw person).
That said: the starting salary is now $180K, everybody, keep up! I graduated from a top school with debt in the $150-$200K range. I paid it off in 6.5 years (ahead, I think, of most of my peers who had similar debt loads), of which a meaningful chunk were clerking, so not at anywhere near a Biglaw income. It was doable. It required keeping my eye on the prize, but I certainly wasn't eating ramen every day. I had some nice vacations, bought some furniture, lived by myself in Manhattan. It helped very much that I didn't intend to buy real estate (not being sure where I'd settle) and I didn't throw a wedding during that time period, which many junior associates are just of the age to do. So while I certainly experienced some lifestyle inflation, none of it was the kind that couldn't be pruned back when the time came.
I was also glad to leave when I did. I learned a lot and worked at a very high level, but that lifestyle is incredibly strenuous. Not having the albatross of debt compelling you to remain does make it easier.
So: the practicality of this career path depends very much on his individual details: grades, GPA. The desirability depends very much on his character. It's not an insane thing to do if you can plot a course that either involves no debt or involves debt taken on to attend the top 5-6 schools, and if you can genuinely identify actual aspects of legal work that you think you might find rewarding. But, assuming no great family wealth, only if.
posted by praemunire at 11:34 AM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
He will not make 160,000 the first year.
I did. People who hold the same position now make $180,000.
posted by praemunire at 12:55 PM on May 22, 2017
I did. People who hold the same position now make $180,000.
posted by praemunire at 12:55 PM on May 22, 2017
That said: the starting salary is now $180K, everybody, keep up!
That is correct, and with regard to that point: Seyfarth Shaw, an AmLaw 100 firm, just laid off 40 attorneys and another few staff, pointing specifically to the increase in first-year salaries as a justification for the layoffs. The higher the salaries get, the more competitive the field gets.
posted by holborne at 1:15 PM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
That is correct, and with regard to that point: Seyfarth Shaw, an AmLaw 100 firm, just laid off 40 attorneys and another few staff, pointing specifically to the increase in first-year salaries as a justification for the layoffs. The higher the salaries get, the more competitive the field gets.
posted by holborne at 1:15 PM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
According to their own data, some 22% of Fordham grads get jobs at large firms (although it's far from the case that every firm with 500+ lawyers pays that 180k starting salary.) So it's not as long a shot as it used to be, I guess. The problem with the plan is that the guy sounds ignorant of what the practice of law is about. Being smart and hardworking, or even successful in law school, isn't a magic formula for succeeding as an attorney, much less a big firm attorney.
He'd do better to work as a paralegal for a couple years and actually get some exposure to the case work so he can tailor his law school education and plan his career with some information, than to blindly start shelling out for law school.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:45 PM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
He'd do better to work as a paralegal for a couple years and actually get some exposure to the case work so he can tailor his law school education and plan his career with some information, than to blindly start shelling out for law school.
posted by fingersandtoes at 1:45 PM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
I love being a lawyer, and I went to a top-20 school, so I could have done BigLaw if I'd gotten the grades.
However.
It's all on a curve, and there were some goddamned smart people in my class. I had a million point oh GPA in college and about a 3.1 in law school, and I worked hard.
To get that BigLaw job, all that matters is grades, so you have to bust your ass from Day One AND be extremely, extremely smart. I thought that was me, but it wasn't.
For what it's worth, my BigLaw friends all hated it. Shit like having to wake up at 3am and work if the partner on the case sent them an email. And you are doing nothing of substance for the first five years or more.
posted by radicalawyer at 1:52 PM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
However.
It's all on a curve, and there were some goddamned smart people in my class. I had a million point oh GPA in college and about a 3.1 in law school, and I worked hard.
To get that BigLaw job, all that matters is grades, so you have to bust your ass from Day One AND be extremely, extremely smart. I thought that was me, but it wasn't.
For what it's worth, my BigLaw friends all hated it. Shit like having to wake up at 3am and work if the partner on the case sent them an email. And you are doing nothing of substance for the first five years or more.
posted by radicalawyer at 1:52 PM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
That is correct, and with regard to that point: Seyfarth Shaw, an AmLaw 100 firm, just laid off 40 attorneys and another few staff, pointing specifically to the increase in first-year salaries as a justification for the layoffs. The higher the salaries get, the more competitive the field gets.
Just an excuse, really, for a firm with bad revenues.
Obviously, the group of people hired into that particular position is not massive. That's why it's important either not to incur debt or to do so only at a school where you have a strong chance of landing such a position, if desired. Fordham benefits from its location, but I wouldn't borrow real money to go to their law school.
It turns out I learned more about how to litigate at Biglaw than I thought at the time, but meaningful responsibility is an elusive creature for junior associates, it's true. On the other hand, "meaningful responsibility" defending DUIs or hounding small debtors is...not what everyone wants, either.
posted by praemunire at 2:16 PM on May 22, 2017
Just an excuse, really, for a firm with bad revenues.
Obviously, the group of people hired into that particular position is not massive. That's why it's important either not to incur debt or to do so only at a school where you have a strong chance of landing such a position, if desired. Fordham benefits from its location, but I wouldn't borrow real money to go to their law school.
It turns out I learned more about how to litigate at Biglaw than I thought at the time, but meaningful responsibility is an elusive creature for junior associates, it's true. On the other hand, "meaningful responsibility" defending DUIs or hounding small debtors is...not what everyone wants, either.
posted by praemunire at 2:16 PM on May 22, 2017
It sounds like it's his parents that have concerns. Why not walk them through their concerns and show them ways that he can achieve the things he's saying?
Look, the things that piss me off the most in my life are the "well-meaning" advice that I got that talked me out of following my dreams. Maybe I would've fucked up, but it would have been my fuck up. Instead I got talked into doing something dull but "safe". And those well-meaning people? They aren't living my life. But I'm stuck living with the decisions that they "helped me" make.
Leave the kid alone and let him follow his chosen path. Tell his parents to figure out how to support him for real rather than just laying all of their fucking fears and anxiety on him.
posted by vignettist at 2:18 PM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
Look, the things that piss me off the most in my life are the "well-meaning" advice that I got that talked me out of following my dreams. Maybe I would've fucked up, but it would have been my fuck up. Instead I got talked into doing something dull but "safe". And those well-meaning people? They aren't living my life. But I'm stuck living with the decisions that they "helped me" make.
Leave the kid alone and let him follow his chosen path. Tell his parents to figure out how to support him for real rather than just laying all of their fucking fears and anxiety on him.
posted by vignettist at 2:18 PM on May 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
Respectfully, $150k in non-dischargeable debt with a starting salary of $50k is a fuck-up with consequences I wouldn't wish on anyone.
posted by radicalawyer at 2:50 PM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by radicalawyer at 2:50 PM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
No. For the love of God, no. A huge number of lawyers are very unhappy. The cost is overwhelming. The second most desirable job after Big Law is public interest where you can get loans forgiven and Trump is about to end that program. Don't go to law school unless you don't want to do anything else. There are so many ways to be smart and do interesting stuff.
posted by kerf at 3:03 PM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kerf at 3:03 PM on May 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Respectfully, $150k in non-dischargeable debt with a starting salary of $50k is a fuck-up with consequences I wouldn't wish on anyone.
This is why I try to talk people out of it: my situation is close to this. My debt isn't quite that bad, but like I said, I graduated right after the crash. I also have a public service type job, so I get to help people who need it but the pay is not great. I spent the first four years after law school in a studio apartment with neighbors who smoked crack, and I spent the first two choosing between having a cat and affording my medication because I could not do both.
I never wanted to do BigLaw, but I would have done better if the crash hadn't happened right then and I was not a sophisticated borrower until I was already in over my head. I had classmates who had BigLaw offers rescinded shortly before graduation because of the economy. I was lucky to have a job after graduation, and I've been lucky that it's a stable field.
It's easy to say that this is going to be an awesome plan and everything is going to go a certain way. You don't know what's going to happen, you don't know what the economy is going to be like, and you don't know if you're going to get hit with something totally unforeseen.
Don't go if you don't need to do it to be happy.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:23 PM on May 22, 2017
This is why I try to talk people out of it: my situation is close to this. My debt isn't quite that bad, but like I said, I graduated right after the crash. I also have a public service type job, so I get to help people who need it but the pay is not great. I spent the first four years after law school in a studio apartment with neighbors who smoked crack, and I spent the first two choosing between having a cat and affording my medication because I could not do both.
I never wanted to do BigLaw, but I would have done better if the crash hadn't happened right then and I was not a sophisticated borrower until I was already in over my head. I had classmates who had BigLaw offers rescinded shortly before graduation because of the economy. I was lucky to have a job after graduation, and I've been lucky that it's a stable field.
It's easy to say that this is going to be an awesome plan and everything is going to go a certain way. You don't know what's going to happen, you don't know what the economy is going to be like, and you don't know if you're going to get hit with something totally unforeseen.
Don't go if you don't need to do it to be happy.
posted by bile and syntax at 3:23 PM on May 22, 2017
Look, the things that piss me off the most in my life are the "well-meaning" advice that I got that talked me out of following my dreams.
Well, sure, but it doesn't sound like this guy is "following his dreams." It sounds like he's like 90 percent of kids who go to law school -- bright English, history, and poli sci majors who think that law school provides a relatively simple path to a comfortable middle class life and that the work sounds kinda cool. If I thought the kid had a burning, or even genuine, desire to actually practice law, and that he had a least some understanding of what he was getting into, I might say go for it, depending on the surrounding circumstances. Doesn't sound like that's the situation here.
posted by holborne at 3:32 PM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
Well, sure, but it doesn't sound like this guy is "following his dreams." It sounds like he's like 90 percent of kids who go to law school -- bright English, history, and poli sci majors who think that law school provides a relatively simple path to a comfortable middle class life and that the work sounds kinda cool. If I thought the kid had a burning, or even genuine, desire to actually practice law, and that he had a least some understanding of what he was getting into, I might say go for it, depending on the surrounding circumstances. Doesn't sound like that's the situation here.
posted by holborne at 3:32 PM on May 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
I'd suggest he read Don't Go to Law School (Unless), which is what I suggest for everyone considering law school. There is an abbreviated flowchart version available.
It's not so much that I want to talk prospective law students out of it (I'm not into crushing dreams) as that I don't want them to make the same mistakes that I did. That means that if they decide to go to law school, they should go in aware of the potential pitfalls and prepared to avoid them, so that they've got the best possible chance at success.
With at least two years to prepare, he's got a shot at setting himself up for good outcomes either as a lawyer or as practically anything else, and a lot of the prep work will help him no matter what he decides to do. This is time to work on mental and physical health, study and work skills, life maintenance skills (y'know, "adulting"), social skills -- it'll all pay off.
Informational interviews with lawyers are a great idea, and he should also consider them with people in other professions. Hit up the undergrad career services office early and start learning about all the other things that might be possible. (Besides, a lot of those events offer free food.) It's not just administrative assistant or barista if you didn't go into engineering, but there are a lot of people who've gone to law school because it seemed that way. Also, learning more about basically anything else is a good idea, because lawyers who don't know anything about anything but lawyering are insufferable and tedious.
Respectfully, $150k in non-dischargeable debt with a starting salary of $50k is a fuck-up with consequences I wouldn't wish on anyone.
It gets worse if it takes a few years of compounding interest before you get that $50k job. Or if the $50k job you get isn't a qualifying public service job. Or if it is, but Public Service Loan Forgiveness gets yanked before you can take advantage of it.
posted by asperity at 3:35 PM on May 22, 2017
It's not so much that I want to talk prospective law students out of it (I'm not into crushing dreams) as that I don't want them to make the same mistakes that I did. That means that if they decide to go to law school, they should go in aware of the potential pitfalls and prepared to avoid them, so that they've got the best possible chance at success.
With at least two years to prepare, he's got a shot at setting himself up for good outcomes either as a lawyer or as practically anything else, and a lot of the prep work will help him no matter what he decides to do. This is time to work on mental and physical health, study and work skills, life maintenance skills (y'know, "adulting"), social skills -- it'll all pay off.
Informational interviews with lawyers are a great idea, and he should also consider them with people in other professions. Hit up the undergrad career services office early and start learning about all the other things that might be possible. (Besides, a lot of those events offer free food.) It's not just administrative assistant or barista if you didn't go into engineering, but there are a lot of people who've gone to law school because it seemed that way. Also, learning more about basically anything else is a good idea, because lawyers who don't know anything about anything but lawyering are insufferable and tedious.
Respectfully, $150k in non-dischargeable debt with a starting salary of $50k is a fuck-up with consequences I wouldn't wish on anyone.
It gets worse if it takes a few years of compounding interest before you get that $50k job. Or if the $50k job you get isn't a qualifying public service job. Or if it is, but Public Service Loan Forgiveness gets yanked before you can take advantage of it.
posted by asperity at 3:35 PM on May 22, 2017
If you do arrange for him to speak with lawyers, make sure at least some of them are relatively new to the field.
I am a Fordham Law alum, and I loved both law school and practicing law. I had no trouble finding a job upon graduation and made a very good salary. I also had no problem paying off my loans. So based on my own experence, I would say -- go for it!!
BUT -- I am 65 years old, and retired. So my experience may be not relevant in many important ways.
I will say though (and I think this is relevant) that it sounds as if this young man might have an overly-glamorous idea of what practicing law is like. I wouldn't necessarily discourage him though, because his view of what it's like to practice law will be tested very quickly in the first semester of Contracts Law class. (Which I loved, but it is not sexy!) If he likes it, cool. If not, he can drop out without having wasted too much money.
As far as the need to go to a top school -- if you are willing to practice in NYC, where Fordham Law does indeed have a good (and well-deserved) reputation, you should be fine if you put in the work while in school to get high grades. If you can make Law Review and possibly become a Law Review editor, so much the better. BUT -- you need to work really really hard in school. That's fine if you enjoy the subjects (which I did), but again, I can't tell if this young man is up for that. (He may well be; I just don't know.)
But again, having him talk to practicing lawyers (especially recent grads, preferably from Fordham Law), should give him a good idea of what's ahead.
Finally, another poster suggested that he get a feel for the practice of law by working as a paralegal. I did that, and I think it's a terrific idea.
posted by merejane at 3:49 PM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am a Fordham Law alum, and I loved both law school and practicing law. I had no trouble finding a job upon graduation and made a very good salary. I also had no problem paying off my loans. So based on my own experence, I would say -- go for it!!
BUT -- I am 65 years old, and retired. So my experience may be not relevant in many important ways.
I will say though (and I think this is relevant) that it sounds as if this young man might have an overly-glamorous idea of what practicing law is like. I wouldn't necessarily discourage him though, because his view of what it's like to practice law will be tested very quickly in the first semester of Contracts Law class. (Which I loved, but it is not sexy!) If he likes it, cool. If not, he can drop out without having wasted too much money.
As far as the need to go to a top school -- if you are willing to practice in NYC, where Fordham Law does indeed have a good (and well-deserved) reputation, you should be fine if you put in the work while in school to get high grades. If you can make Law Review and possibly become a Law Review editor, so much the better. BUT -- you need to work really really hard in school. That's fine if you enjoy the subjects (which I did), but again, I can't tell if this young man is up for that. (He may well be; I just don't know.)
But again, having him talk to practicing lawyers (especially recent grads, preferably from Fordham Law), should give him a good idea of what's ahead.
Finally, another poster suggested that he get a feel for the practice of law by working as a paralegal. I did that, and I think it's a terrific idea.
posted by merejane at 3:49 PM on May 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
I am a lawyer admitted to the NY bar and went to a much more prestigious law school than Fordham and graduated in the salad days (i.e. Pre 2008). He might land a job making 180k and love his work, or he might end up 200k in debt and jobless or in a job he hates that pays well (or doesn't) or a job he loves but barely pays the interest on his loans.
The picture you paint is a starry eyed kid who always did well in school. That was me. It doesn't translate to the real legal world. I got lucky.
One piece of advice, respectfully: tell him to work as a paralegal or some other kind of legal internship for a year to see what he's signing up for before he spends probably a quarter million after interest and living expenses on trying to be f lee bailey. It's called due diligence.
From someone who's been there.
posted by banishedimmortal at 3:57 AM on May 23, 2017
The picture you paint is a starry eyed kid who always did well in school. That was me. It doesn't translate to the real legal world. I got lucky.
One piece of advice, respectfully: tell him to work as a paralegal or some other kind of legal internship for a year to see what he's signing up for before he spends probably a quarter million after interest and living expenses on trying to be f lee bailey. It's called due diligence.
From someone who's been there.
posted by banishedimmortal at 3:57 AM on May 23, 2017
With respect, telling someone it's an excellent idea to go to law school based on your experiences graduating and easily paying off your loans as a 1977-ish law school graduate is like saying, "Airport security is no big deal; I flew abroad in 1998 and there was no problem." You're talking about a completely different universe.
posted by holborne at 7:08 AM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by holborne at 7:08 AM on May 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Sorry to pile on to the chorus of "talk to a lawyer" - but he should talk to a lawyer, preferably a lawyer he works for.
I am a lawyer that loved law school and loves being a lawyer. When I talk to younger folks about going to law school, I always advise them to work in a law firm for at least a year. They can either work part-time while they are in school, or take time off before applying to law school. It's one thing to hear doom and gloom stories from random lawyers, it's quite another thing to see the daily grind of being a lawyer. I feel that working for a solo practitioner prior to law school gave me a completely different perspective on my legal career. Although I'm sure there's some luck involved, I think having that perspective going into law school is why I am a happy lawyer today.
posted by donovangirl at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am a lawyer that loved law school and loves being a lawyer. When I talk to younger folks about going to law school, I always advise them to work in a law firm for at least a year. They can either work part-time while they are in school, or take time off before applying to law school. It's one thing to hear doom and gloom stories from random lawyers, it's quite another thing to see the daily grind of being a lawyer. I feel that working for a solo practitioner prior to law school gave me a completely different perspective on my legal career. Although I'm sure there's some luck involved, I think having that perspective going into law school is why I am a happy lawyer today.
posted by donovangirl at 7:46 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't want to continue to rain on this kid's parade here but as an insider in the industry I just want to throw out some realism as well. I am not a lawyer - mostly because I did this math when I was considering going myself. I did not think that I could play in the big leagues and realized that practicing at any cost was not attractive to me. I work at a top 20 AmLaw firm with high profits per partner. We pay our first years 180K. New York is our home base. We just got our summer associates in and not a single one of them is from Fordham. Maybe we made offers to the Fordham kids and they declined but then again - maybe we didn't. We do have double digit summers from Harvard alone this year.
New York is a super super competitive and tough market. I think that if he assumes that he can just end up at the top of his class and immediately make the highest salary that that is a big assumption. One thing he could do is identify some firms that he would like to aim for - go on their website and review who on their roster is also a Fordham alum. Compare those numbers to the line up from another highly regarded law school and he'd get an idea of who that firm hires year over year.
I also think it's a good idea that he should paralegal for a year or two. Definitely talk to some practicing attorneys before he jumps in feet first. And also he should consider that there are other markets than NYC. I have friends who went out West for law school and ended up making partner at small local firms and they do well.
His plan is not not doable but it would be all the better to enter into in with a clear picture of his goals and his chances.
posted by rdnnyc at 8:13 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
New York is a super super competitive and tough market. I think that if he assumes that he can just end up at the top of his class and immediately make the highest salary that that is a big assumption. One thing he could do is identify some firms that he would like to aim for - go on their website and review who on their roster is also a Fordham alum. Compare those numbers to the line up from another highly regarded law school and he'd get an idea of who that firm hires year over year.
I also think it's a good idea that he should paralegal for a year or two. Definitely talk to some practicing attorneys before he jumps in feet first. And also he should consider that there are other markets than NYC. I have friends who went out West for law school and ended up making partner at small local firms and they do well.
His plan is not not doable but it would be all the better to enter into in with a clear picture of his goals and his chances.
posted by rdnnyc at 8:13 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Oh, it might be helpful to this kid to know that many of the big NY law firms don't have career paralegals, they hire college graduates with the understanding that they'll stay one to three years before going to law school or elsewhere. There usually aren't any certification requirements, either. So a short stint as a paralegal is not as "off-track" as it might seem. (That said, while I know of at least one of our [best] paralegals who ultimately ended up at a very good firm, I don't remember knowing a single attorney colleague during my Biglaw stint who worked as a paralegal first. It is a slightly down-market move.)
Working as a paralegal in that environment will expose him to very little substantive legal work, but it certainly will give him a glimpse of the atmosphere and the hours. And if he doesn't like making binders as a paralegal, he can probably work out how excruciating a task it is to be supervising the making of binders as a junior associate.
I think one of the ways in which the post-2007 market contraction made it harder on people with slightly less stellar credentials is that it made the people with the most desirable stats more conservative in their choices. That is, in the past, the firms were viewed as more interchangeable, and people might take a flyer on a slightly less prestigious firm on the grounds that they liked the "atmosphere" or whatever, thereby leaving open spots for others. Now I think students are in a long-term flight to "quality." Not just out of the notion that such firms look better on your resume, but because, well, my first firm was evil in many ways, but they didn't defer or cancel any offers.
posted by praemunire at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Working as a paralegal in that environment will expose him to very little substantive legal work, but it certainly will give him a glimpse of the atmosphere and the hours. And if he doesn't like making binders as a paralegal, he can probably work out how excruciating a task it is to be supervising the making of binders as a junior associate.
I think one of the ways in which the post-2007 market contraction made it harder on people with slightly less stellar credentials is that it made the people with the most desirable stats more conservative in their choices. That is, in the past, the firms were viewed as more interchangeable, and people might take a flyer on a slightly less prestigious firm on the grounds that they liked the "atmosphere" or whatever, thereby leaving open spots for others. Now I think students are in a long-term flight to "quality." Not just out of the notion that such firms look better on your resume, but because, well, my first firm was evil in many ways, but they didn't defer or cancel any offers.
posted by praemunire at 8:49 AM on May 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
As mentioned by a few people above, the glaring flaw in his plan is that he overestimates the job potential of a Fordham JD. The JD = $180,000 job in BigLaw only exists anymore for the top five to ten ranked law schools. Fordham is currently ranked 36 in the US News Rankings which makes it a very good regional law school. However, its region in NYC, a market that draws from all top schools nationwide and so it losses most of its value.
He would be far better off going to Wake Forest or University of Colorado - Boulder (the other two schools tied at rank 36) and looking for work in their respective markets. The jobs he could find would not pay the $180,000 (there is a significant BigLaw NYC bump), but he would be far more competitive. If he wants NYC, he is going to need a higher ranked school.
posted by rtimmel at 9:46 AM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
He would be far better off going to Wake Forest or University of Colorado - Boulder (the other two schools tied at rank 36) and looking for work in their respective markets. The jobs he could find would not pay the $180,000 (there is a significant BigLaw NYC bump), but he would be far more competitive. If he wants NYC, he is going to need a higher ranked school.
posted by rtimmel at 9:46 AM on May 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is general advice, not specific to the legal field, but rather to the situation of Young Person Who Wants to Do A Dumb Thing.
It is very difficult to talk people out of something that they have decided they want to do, even if they have decided based on limited or biased information (e.g. Hollywood, or a small number of very high-profile people or situations). You can try, and if they trust your judgement enough, you might do it — but you run the risk of some bitterness later on if they second-guess their decision or wonder if the grass really might have been greener than you said it was.
IMO, the thing to do — and I'd say this straight-up to just about anyone; it's not some sort of trick to talk someone out of a field — is to get involved in that field, as close to the target role as you can, and see what it's really like, day-to-day, "in the trenches", and if that's really how you want to spend a substantial chunk of your life. In law this might be hard, because there are a lot of very-qualified people willing to work as unpaid or barely-paid interns, particularly during the summer. But it might be possible to get some sort of informal unpaid internship during the school year. (Normally I would never advise anyone taking an unpaid internship, but this is sort of the exception that proves the rule; it's worth not being paid, and in fact might be better in some respects not to be paid, because the idea is to watch and learn, not "do work", and cut it off once that information has been gained.) But it might be worth floating that idea. A college alumni office might be able to facilitate something, particularly if they stress that it's a very informal sort of 'shadowing' or 'mentoring' situation and not a typical intern. (Obviously this also depends on the candidate in question and how personable they are, frankly.)
I know several people who saved themselves a heap of time and trouble by doing something like this in various medical speciality fields, and basically couldn't run away fast enough from something they were about to invest a huge amount of money into post-sec education in. Very worth the time investment, in my opinion.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:08 PM on May 23, 2017
It is very difficult to talk people out of something that they have decided they want to do, even if they have decided based on limited or biased information (e.g. Hollywood, or a small number of very high-profile people or situations). You can try, and if they trust your judgement enough, you might do it — but you run the risk of some bitterness later on if they second-guess their decision or wonder if the grass really might have been greener than you said it was.
IMO, the thing to do — and I'd say this straight-up to just about anyone; it's not some sort of trick to talk someone out of a field — is to get involved in that field, as close to the target role as you can, and see what it's really like, day-to-day, "in the trenches", and if that's really how you want to spend a substantial chunk of your life. In law this might be hard, because there are a lot of very-qualified people willing to work as unpaid or barely-paid interns, particularly during the summer. But it might be possible to get some sort of informal unpaid internship during the school year. (Normally I would never advise anyone taking an unpaid internship, but this is sort of the exception that proves the rule; it's worth not being paid, and in fact might be better in some respects not to be paid, because the idea is to watch and learn, not "do work", and cut it off once that information has been gained.) But it might be worth floating that idea. A college alumni office might be able to facilitate something, particularly if they stress that it's a very informal sort of 'shadowing' or 'mentoring' situation and not a typical intern. (Obviously this also depends on the candidate in question and how personable they are, frankly.)
I know several people who saved themselves a heap of time and trouble by doing something like this in various medical speciality fields, and basically couldn't run away fast enough from something they were about to invest a huge amount of money into post-sec education in. Very worth the time investment, in my opinion.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:08 PM on May 23, 2017
1) Nobody should go to law school.
2) If #1 is ignored, nobody should go to a private school outside the top ten unless they are getting a full ride.
Why?
1) Being a lawyer is a shitty job.
2) Unless you go to a top-ten school, your chances of getting a Big Law job are too low to be worth the ungodly cost of private school.
3) Think about how awful a job must be if it starts out paying $180k, has annual raises and big bonuses, and by the fifth year everybody has quit.
4) There is no "drama" to be had if you get a job at a Big Law firm. There are no stirring closing arguments to the jury in a case that matters (or any case, really). Instead, if you do litigation, the best you can hope for is grinding away thousands of hours on the most uninteresting bank-related garbage so that lots of motions can be filed and everybody's lives can be ruined before the client settles on the eve of trial for a truly incomprehensible sum and you look back on the flaming wreck that is your last year and wonder what you did to deserve this.
5) If you are not in Big Law you don't make any money and there still won't be any stirring closing argument to a jury in your life. You might get to do something that is actually meaningful in some way, but you will have to look on the flaming wreck that is your financial situation and wonder what you did to deserve this.
In short, this kid should not go to law school.
posted by sinfony at 5:10 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
2) If #1 is ignored, nobody should go to a private school outside the top ten unless they are getting a full ride.
Why?
1) Being a lawyer is a shitty job.
2) Unless you go to a top-ten school, your chances of getting a Big Law job are too low to be worth the ungodly cost of private school.
3) Think about how awful a job must be if it starts out paying $180k, has annual raises and big bonuses, and by the fifth year everybody has quit.
4) There is no "drama" to be had if you get a job at a Big Law firm. There are no stirring closing arguments to the jury in a case that matters (or any case, really). Instead, if you do litigation, the best you can hope for is grinding away thousands of hours on the most uninteresting bank-related garbage so that lots of motions can be filed and everybody's lives can be ruined before the client settles on the eve of trial for a truly incomprehensible sum and you look back on the flaming wreck that is your last year and wonder what you did to deserve this.
5) If you are not in Big Law you don't make any money and there still won't be any stirring closing argument to a jury in your life. You might get to do something that is actually meaningful in some way, but you will have to look on the flaming wreck that is your financial situation and wonder what you did to deserve this.
In short, this kid should not go to law school.
posted by sinfony at 5:10 PM on May 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
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2) Do your friends want you giving career and educational counseling to their son? If they or (more importantly) their son haven't requested you to, I think it should be left up to them (not to mention the career counseling that your friends' son likely has access at his university).
posted by wintersweet at 9:27 AM on May 22, 2017 [10 favorites]