Stuck In The Middle In Goo
May 16, 2017 11:38 AM Subscribe
I'm in a sticky social quandary where a friend is asking me to lie to another mutual friend. Do you guys have any advice?
My friend Jay introduced me to his friend Ray many years ago. By chance, Ray and I wound up living in the same city (Jay does not live in this city). Ray and I are now very good friends. The problem is Jay is driving across country and coming through our town. Jay wants to have dinner with me, but does not want Ray to know he (Jay) is in town. This would be OK except Jay announced on Facebook that he is driving across country and now Ray has been messaging Jay asking if Jay will be stopping in town and if they can hang out. Jay says he has not responded to these messages.
I understand Jay's reason for not wanting to meet up with Ray on this trip. While I like Ray very much, he can be quite overbearing and pushy and wont take no for an answer. He once caused Jay to miss a plane flight because Ray kept putting off taking Jay to the airport so they could hang out longer (Ray is a bit obsessed with Jay in my opinion). Jay is driving out to start a new job on the west coast, and he does not want to deal with Ray's over-the-top energy, he just wants a quiet dinner and a pep-talk. He will only be in town for one quick evening.
I understand Jay's reasoning, but I am frustrated because he announced his plans on Facebook which is stupid, because of course Ray will see it and ask questions. Ray, I'm sure, will bring this up with me when he doesn't get an answer from Jay, asking if I know what Jay's plans are. I don't want to lie to Ray. Jay asked that I say that I don't know what his route is, and I don't know his plans. But I would not put it past Jay to, later on down the road, let it slip out that he and I hung out when he came through town. In fact I would almost bet on him doing that. I don't want to hurt Ray. Also, I don't think I should be asked to lie. Its bad enough that I just don't bring it up with Ray, because I know Ray will be extremely hurt if he ever finds out this took place.
What would you guys do in this situation. I realize there's probably no one right answer, but this is one of the best things about metafilter, being able to ask the advice of so many smart people with so many different view points. All input is helpful and appreciated. Thank you!
My friend Jay introduced me to his friend Ray many years ago. By chance, Ray and I wound up living in the same city (Jay does not live in this city). Ray and I are now very good friends. The problem is Jay is driving across country and coming through our town. Jay wants to have dinner with me, but does not want Ray to know he (Jay) is in town. This would be OK except Jay announced on Facebook that he is driving across country and now Ray has been messaging Jay asking if Jay will be stopping in town and if they can hang out. Jay says he has not responded to these messages.
I understand Jay's reason for not wanting to meet up with Ray on this trip. While I like Ray very much, he can be quite overbearing and pushy and wont take no for an answer. He once caused Jay to miss a plane flight because Ray kept putting off taking Jay to the airport so they could hang out longer (Ray is a bit obsessed with Jay in my opinion). Jay is driving out to start a new job on the west coast, and he does not want to deal with Ray's over-the-top energy, he just wants a quiet dinner and a pep-talk. He will only be in town for one quick evening.
I understand Jay's reasoning, but I am frustrated because he announced his plans on Facebook which is stupid, because of course Ray will see it and ask questions. Ray, I'm sure, will bring this up with me when he doesn't get an answer from Jay, asking if I know what Jay's plans are. I don't want to lie to Ray. Jay asked that I say that I don't know what his route is, and I don't know his plans. But I would not put it past Jay to, later on down the road, let it slip out that he and I hung out when he came through town. In fact I would almost bet on him doing that. I don't want to hurt Ray. Also, I don't think I should be asked to lie. Its bad enough that I just don't bring it up with Ray, because I know Ray will be extremely hurt if he ever finds out this took place.
What would you guys do in this situation. I realize there's probably no one right answer, but this is one of the best things about metafilter, being able to ask the advice of so many smart people with so many different view points. All input is helpful and appreciated. Thank you!
Tell Jay that while you won't volunteer information to Ray, you're not going to lie to him, either. It's not necessarily cruel or unfriendly for Jay to choose to spend his one night in town one particular way; it was just dumb of him to mention that he'd be in town where Ray could see it. So you needn't--and shouldn't--take sides on Jay's social planning as though it were an offensive action. Have dinner with Jay, and if Ray brings it up to you, before or after, refer him to Jay.
In short: it usually takes some cooperation on your part to be put in the middle on this kind of thing. Gently but firmly refuse to be so put.
posted by praemunire at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2017 [23 favorites]
In short: it usually takes some cooperation on your part to be put in the middle on this kind of thing. Gently but firmly refuse to be so put.
posted by praemunire at 11:47 AM on May 16, 2017 [23 favorites]
You don't have to lie by commission, but you would probably have to by omission. You could be unavailable to Ray the night you go to dinner, where I have to assume there will be no pictures taken and be at risk of posting. That is, it's not just you that has to be covered, but his route through town. I have found out friends visited mutual friends in my city without getting in touch with me, so I'm thinking of Ray here.
posted by rhizome at 11:49 AM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 11:49 AM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Jay sounds mean. I know he's your friend, but the part where he posted his travel plans on FB means that he doesn't care about hurting Ray's feelings, so you can assume that any part you play in meeting Jay will get back to Ray.
I wouldn't lie, because there's no way Ray isn't going to find out if you DO lie. We know Jay won't keep the secret. If you do really want to meet Jay, and you want to try to protect Ray's feelings, AND Ray asks, then you can tell Ray that Jay asked you to keep it 1:1 because he's so short on time. Which is basically true.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:49 AM on May 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
I wouldn't lie, because there's no way Ray isn't going to find out if you DO lie. We know Jay won't keep the secret. If you do really want to meet Jay, and you want to try to protect Ray's feelings, AND Ray asks, then you can tell Ray that Jay asked you to keep it 1:1 because he's so short on time. Which is basically true.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:49 AM on May 16, 2017 [14 favorites]
I also agree that this is completely Jay's problem.
posted by rhizome at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 11:50 AM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
I would lie that I didn't know his plans, and if asked pointedly after the fact I'd say "oh, yeah, he happened to need my help for blah blah reason so we had a quick bite to eat." If Ray feels hurt, I mean, I don't know. He doesn't have the self-awareness to get someone to the airport on time? He can deal.
If there's no convincing reason he'd need your help with something but not Ray's, or be in your vicinity but not Ray's, then I'd probably just say he was driving through and asked to hang out and that's that. If Ray is mad, he can take it up with Jay. I would not make a thing out of it prior to the dinner because that could mess up Jay's career thing, but after all that's over I would not feel the need to perform a drawn out lie. If someone asked me to lie, I would tell them "I won't let him know you're stopping in beforehand, but afterward y'all can deal with it."
I don't think Jay is mean, I think he's realistic about what kind of person/friend Ray is. If someone was that disrespectful of my time, I'd be so mad at them! The fact that Jay still wants to be friends but knows where to draw the line, and also didn't want to hide his life from everyone else... I mean, it sounds like he has the right idea about Ray and isn't rearranging his life for Ray's sake. No one has to be the villain here.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:51 AM on May 16, 2017 [29 favorites]
If there's no convincing reason he'd need your help with something but not Ray's, or be in your vicinity but not Ray's, then I'd probably just say he was driving through and asked to hang out and that's that. If Ray is mad, he can take it up with Jay. I would not make a thing out of it prior to the dinner because that could mess up Jay's career thing, but after all that's over I would not feel the need to perform a drawn out lie. If someone asked me to lie, I would tell them "I won't let him know you're stopping in beforehand, but afterward y'all can deal with it."
I don't think Jay is mean, I think he's realistic about what kind of person/friend Ray is. If someone was that disrespectful of my time, I'd be so mad at them! The fact that Jay still wants to be friends but knows where to draw the line, and also didn't want to hide his life from everyone else... I mean, it sounds like he has the right idea about Ray and isn't rearranging his life for Ray's sake. No one has to be the villain here.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:51 AM on May 16, 2017 [29 favorites]
(Actually stoneandstar is right, I'd probably drop someone like a hot potato if they caused me to miss a flight because they wanted to hang out more. I'd be livid, umm, forever, probably.) I take it back. Jay's not wrong, but you can't hide this from Ray in any case.
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:58 AM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 11:58 AM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
If Ray asks, I would tell him that you are not sure if Jay is coming through town and that his plans are still up in the air, from what you have heard. Have dinner with Jay and then if Ray finds out after the fact, tell Ray that it was a last minute thing.
posted by Rock Steady at 12:04 PM on May 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 12:04 PM on May 16, 2017 [15 favorites]
Jay needs to hide or unfriend Ray on Facebook. Not doing so is just a stupid oversight on his part.
I have to admit I'm more sympathetic to Jay than Ray. The whole making-him-miss-the-flight thing sounds incredibly unhealthy and messed up, and I'm not overly sympathetic to people who trample over boundaries like Ray does.
Just be like "Hey Jay. Ray saw your post on Facebook and he's freaking out. I don't want to be in the middle of this. You're not making it easy for me to cover for you."
See what Jay says and act accordingly. But Ray sounds like he has serious stalker potential, so I think a lie of omission about Jay being in town isn't a terrible thing and may even be the morally right thing to do in the circumstances. I wouldn't extend that to lying about seeing Jay yourself, though.
posted by stockpuppet at 12:09 PM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
I have to admit I'm more sympathetic to Jay than Ray. The whole making-him-miss-the-flight thing sounds incredibly unhealthy and messed up, and I'm not overly sympathetic to people who trample over boundaries like Ray does.
Just be like "Hey Jay. Ray saw your post on Facebook and he's freaking out. I don't want to be in the middle of this. You're not making it easy for me to cover for you."
See what Jay says and act accordingly. But Ray sounds like he has serious stalker potential, so I think a lie of omission about Jay being in town isn't a terrible thing and may even be the morally right thing to do in the circumstances. I wouldn't extend that to lying about seeing Jay yourself, though.
posted by stockpuppet at 12:09 PM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
I have friends who travel quite a lot to places where they know multiple people (I am actually one of these people, too). Sometimes when a person comes through you're area, you get on their visit list, and sometimes you don't because they can only do so much while they're on vacation. Some people take it a little bit personally, but I think most of us understand the situation. Someone might say, "I was sorry not to get to see you when you were in town," and then you say back, "Yeah, I hope we can get together another time."
That's normal.
Jay is asking you to get involved in his drama with Ray. This is never a good idea. It sounds like Jay has good reason not to want to see Ray, but it's his job to manage that situation, not yours, and, in your shoes (if I were brave enough), that's how I'd treat it with both of them. To Jay: "I'm not going to volunteer the information that we're having dinner, but if Ray asks whether I'm seeing you, I will tell him the truth." To Ray, when he inevitably finds out and wants to rant to you/blame you/be angry at you about it: "Ray, this is between you and Jay. I'm not responsible for how he spends his time or who he spends it with. If you have a problem with Jay, you need to take it up with him."
posted by Orlop at 12:10 PM on May 16, 2017 [30 favorites]
That's normal.
Jay is asking you to get involved in his drama with Ray. This is never a good idea. It sounds like Jay has good reason not to want to see Ray, but it's his job to manage that situation, not yours, and, in your shoes (if I were brave enough), that's how I'd treat it with both of them. To Jay: "I'm not going to volunteer the information that we're having dinner, but if Ray asks whether I'm seeing you, I will tell him the truth." To Ray, when he inevitably finds out and wants to rant to you/blame you/be angry at you about it: "Ray, this is between you and Jay. I'm not responsible for how he spends his time or who he spends it with. If you have a problem with Jay, you need to take it up with him."
posted by Orlop at 12:10 PM on May 16, 2017 [30 favorites]
Have Jay tell you "My plans have changed and I probably won't be coming thru your town". Wink, wink, nudge, nudge. Then, when Ray asks you if you know Jay's plans, say, "he was going to come thru town, but now he's not." Then, as the day approaches, if Jay's plans change yet again, so be it.
posted by at at 12:25 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by at at 12:25 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Tell Jay he needs to reply to Ray's message. You and Jay come up with a narrative that is true but kind, and the two of you stick with it. Jay has to be the one to send this message though, this is essentially Jay's problem and he has to deal with it.
"Ray! So sorry I won't be able to catch up with you on the way through town this time. I'm talking a big talk on Facebook but actually I'm kind of anxious about the new job, and I don't think I can handle a big night of festivities. I have something I need to talk to OP about, so please don't be upset that I'm meeting up with them on my way through. It's really just a quick stop, though, I'm on a schedule, which is too bad. I'm thinking I'll have to be back to visit before too long though, and next time I'll do it right!"
Key things - actually sharing some honest feelings, confessions, requests, saying there will be a next time. IF TRUE, Jay should reassure Ray that Jay does in fact still like him.
If Ray asks where you're meeting and wants to invite himself along, all you know is that Jay is on a tight schedule and you don't know exactly what time, and he hasn't said yet where he wants to go/meet. And Ray says "let me know when you find out", and you say, "I'll tell Jay you were interested and see what he wants."
posted by aimedwander at 12:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Ray! So sorry I won't be able to catch up with you on the way through town this time. I'm talking a big talk on Facebook but actually I'm kind of anxious about the new job, and I don't think I can handle a big night of festivities. I have something I need to talk to OP about, so please don't be upset that I'm meeting up with them on my way through. It's really just a quick stop, though, I'm on a schedule, which is too bad. I'm thinking I'll have to be back to visit before too long though, and next time I'll do it right!"
Key things - actually sharing some honest feelings, confessions, requests, saying there will be a next time. IF TRUE, Jay should reassure Ray that Jay does in fact still like him.
If Ray asks where you're meeting and wants to invite himself along, all you know is that Jay is on a tight schedule and you don't know exactly what time, and he hasn't said yet where he wants to go/meet. And Ray says "let me know when you find out", and you say, "I'll tell Jay you were interested and see what he wants."
posted by aimedwander at 12:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Jay is making drama, and instead of being an adult is asking you to do the work.
Jay is asking you to drop off a package for him, while he has a Facebook page that says "Drug Dealer".
posted by bongo_x at 12:46 PM on May 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Jay is asking you to drop off a package for him, while he has a Facebook page that says "Drug Dealer".
posted by bongo_x at 12:46 PM on May 16, 2017 [7 favorites]
Waaaayyyy too much emotional labour being put on you!
If it were me I'd meet Jay and then when Ray whined about it I'd straight up tell him "YOU made him MISS A FLIGHT!!!! You're lucky he still considers you a friend and honestly it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't want to risk some repeat debacle on a trip to a new job. Don't try to put me in the middle of this." and refuse to speak to Ray about it again.
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 12:55 PM on May 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
If it were me I'd meet Jay and then when Ray whined about it I'd straight up tell him "YOU made him MISS A FLIGHT!!!! You're lucky he still considers you a friend and honestly it makes perfect sense that he wouldn't want to risk some repeat debacle on a trip to a new job. Don't try to put me in the middle of this." and refuse to speak to Ray about it again.
posted by CoffeeHikeNapWine at 12:55 PM on May 16, 2017 [20 favorites]
I would not put it past Jay to, later on down the road, let it slip out that he and I hung out
Tell Jay you won't invite Ray to join you but you also won't lie to him. Not before, not during, not after. Jay has every right to not want to spend time with Ray, but he has to be the one to talk to Ray about it.
I doubt he will though - if missing a flight due to Ray's selfishness wasn't enough of a motivator for Jay to speak up, then your personal ethics and discomfort won't be either. And it sounds like Jay enjoys the drama.
posted by headnsouth at 12:59 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
Tell Jay you won't invite Ray to join you but you also won't lie to him. Not before, not during, not after. Jay has every right to not want to spend time with Ray, but he has to be the one to talk to Ray about it.
I doubt he will though - if missing a flight due to Ray's selfishness wasn't enough of a motivator for Jay to speak up, then your personal ethics and discomfort won't be either. And it sounds like Jay enjoys the drama.
posted by headnsouth at 12:59 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
As a frequent traveler who often has to make choices like this, I am completely on Team Jay here (not that it even needs to be about taking sides!). I have friends that I appreciate as people but don't necessarily want to see on a short/stressful trip, and yeah, it would be nice if Jay kept Ray from seeing his post, but slips happen and he's not now required to hang out with Ray because of it.
But also, this is really not your responsibility to manage - ie, it's not your responsibility to control who Jay hangs out with and it's not your responsibility to manage Ray's reaction. If Ray asks you over text or chat or something like that, I'd frankly just ignore the question. If he asks you in a way where you can't avoid it, just say "yeah, we're getting dinner" and don't make a big deal about it. And I would let Jay know this is your plan. It's understandable that Ray might be hurt by this, and that sucks, but that's between Ray and Jay.
posted by lunasol at 12:59 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
But also, this is really not your responsibility to manage - ie, it's not your responsibility to control who Jay hangs out with and it's not your responsibility to manage Ray's reaction. If Ray asks you over text or chat or something like that, I'd frankly just ignore the question. If he asks you in a way where you can't avoid it, just say "yeah, we're getting dinner" and don't make a big deal about it. And I would let Jay know this is your plan. It's understandable that Ray might be hurt by this, and that sucks, but that's between Ray and Jay.
posted by lunasol at 12:59 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
the part where he posted his travel plans on FB means that he doesn't care about hurting Ray's feelings
Or he just didn't think of it til it was too late. I will sometimes mention travel plans on Facebook. I don't assume that this means every single person in the place I'm visiting will be expecting a dinner invitation, especially if it's only for one night. Maybe I'm just not magnetic enough!
posted by praemunire at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Or he just didn't think of it til it was too late. I will sometimes mention travel plans on Facebook. I don't assume that this means every single person in the place I'm visiting will be expecting a dinner invitation, especially if it's only for one night. Maybe I'm just not magnetic enough!
posted by praemunire at 1:10 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
My most charitable reading of Jay's request is that he hasn't thought this through.
Tell Jay that it's his job to manage his friendship with Ray. Suggest that he do it before he breezes through town. By the same token, it's Ray's job to deal with the terms of his friendship with Jay. It's not your job to take sides, and either of them would be doing you a disservice by requiring you to referee.
I don't see a way for you to get off the hook without making a positive statement to Jay. It may never be necessary to have a conversation with Ray, but if he does ask you about this, your stance will be the same--please take this up with Jay.
In the abstract, a discussion with Ray will never have an optimal time or circumstance--how would you prefer to hear this sort of news? And how would you regard the third-party friend who kept it a secret from you? Your discussion with Jay, though, needs to happen before he comes to town, so he can make whatever decision he needs to make.
posted by mule98J at 1:49 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Tell Jay that it's his job to manage his friendship with Ray. Suggest that he do it before he breezes through town. By the same token, it's Ray's job to deal with the terms of his friendship with Jay. It's not your job to take sides, and either of them would be doing you a disservice by requiring you to referee.
I don't see a way for you to get off the hook without making a positive statement to Jay. It may never be necessary to have a conversation with Ray, but if he does ask you about this, your stance will be the same--please take this up with Jay.
In the abstract, a discussion with Ray will never have an optimal time or circumstance--how would you prefer to hear this sort of news? And how would you regard the third-party friend who kept it a secret from you? Your discussion with Jay, though, needs to happen before he comes to town, so he can make whatever decision he needs to make.
posted by mule98J at 1:49 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lies bad truth good no exceptions
posted by patnok at 2:31 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by patnok at 2:31 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
"I think he just wanted to keep it small, yeah I don't know much more than that. You can ask him for more info. You already did ask and he didn't reply? Huh. Not sure what to tell you but I do hear what you're saying. I know it doesn't feel good to reach out and not get the response you hoped for. [Share a time you felt this way and describe your healthy response.]
"Well, good luck and I truly hope you can both have a friendship that works for you. No, I'm not willing to talk to him. I respect the fact that this is between the two of you. But I'm looking forward to hanging out with you [future plans, etc]..."
posted by ramenopres at 2:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
"Well, good luck and I truly hope you can both have a friendship that works for you. No, I'm not willing to talk to him. I respect the fact that this is between the two of you. But I'm looking forward to hanging out with you [future plans, etc]..."
posted by ramenopres at 2:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jesus Lord sometimes I hate social media.
I think aimedwander's advice is spot on. The whole point of social media is to make public announcements; this is true even if you're not thinking the consequences through when you post. If Jay put this on social media, he can't now act all shocked and put upon that someone saw the announcement and is asking to get together with him when he comes through town. And he certainly can't try to involve you in some sort of convoluted subterfuge in an effort to fix his error.
So it's Jay's responsibility to say to Ray, "Hey, man, I'm really sorry, but WalkerWestridge and I need some time alone together because I have some questions about such and such industry and it's going to be kind of an intense conversation. I'm really sorry -- can I catch you next time?" or what have you. Children, not adults, play cutesy games like "nudge nudge wink wink I've canceled my visit, oops now my plans changed!" You are all adults.
posted by holborne at 2:50 PM on May 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
I think aimedwander's advice is spot on. The whole point of social media is to make public announcements; this is true even if you're not thinking the consequences through when you post. If Jay put this on social media, he can't now act all shocked and put upon that someone saw the announcement and is asking to get together with him when he comes through town. And he certainly can't try to involve you in some sort of convoluted subterfuge in an effort to fix his error.
So it's Jay's responsibility to say to Ray, "Hey, man, I'm really sorry, but WalkerWestridge and I need some time alone together because I have some questions about such and such industry and it's going to be kind of an intense conversation. I'm really sorry -- can I catch you next time?" or what have you. Children, not adults, play cutesy games like "nudge nudge wink wink I've canceled my visit, oops now my plans changed!" You are all adults.
posted by holborne at 2:50 PM on May 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
Jay is a drama queen who needs to grow up and take care of his own problems. Ray made Jay miss a flight? No, Jay was too cheap to call for a cab or, yeah, take a bus. Jay is posting for the whole world to see that he's passing through your city, when the real solution would've been, oh I don't know..... maybe not over-sharing his every move and then expecting you to cover for him. If Jay doesn't want Ray to know what he's doing, he should've either never made such posts in the first place --- and ninety times never make a follow up post or post photos! --- or just unfriend Ray.
Don't lie to Ray, by omission OR commission. I'm not saying Ray has been totally blameless in all their dealings, just that if you DO lie to Ray to cover for Jay, you're going to lose him as a friend yourself.
posted by easily confused at 2:52 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Don't lie to Ray, by omission OR commission. I'm not saying Ray has been totally blameless in all their dealings, just that if you DO lie to Ray to cover for Jay, you're going to lose him as a friend yourself.
posted by easily confused at 2:52 PM on May 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
In theory, I agree that it's Jay's responsibility to talk to Ray.
In practice, "It's Jay's problem so make him talk to Ray" is going to be awkward at best and will have consequences. I can imagine a ricochet or caught-in-the-crossfire problem, because Ray will blame or resent *you* for your part in the meetup. Whether this is rational or reasonable of Ray is a separate question. From Ray's viewpoint, if a buddy who lives in the same town and *knew that he cared about meeting up* went and met up with Jay on his own, it would be so easy to read personal malice into it (despite how much care you're actually taking about this situation). "Dude, why didn't you mention something?"
So, as sucky as it may be, if you care both about honesty and not hurting Ray, it's a no on meeting up with Jay.
(Jay and Ray are behaving inconsiderately/stupidly, both to one another but to you. Making him miss a flight? Wow; I hope Ray offered to help pay for the new ticket. And announcing travel plans on facebook and potentially letting slip info that he doesn't want someone to find out? Stupid, as you say. If you don't want it out, you gotta be more disciplined or suffer the consequences, do your own damage control...I hope these two do have some other, redeeming qualities so that you are happy about staying friends with them.)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 3:49 PM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
In practice, "It's Jay's problem so make him talk to Ray" is going to be awkward at best and will have consequences. I can imagine a ricochet or caught-in-the-crossfire problem, because Ray will blame or resent *you* for your part in the meetup. Whether this is rational or reasonable of Ray is a separate question. From Ray's viewpoint, if a buddy who lives in the same town and *knew that he cared about meeting up* went and met up with Jay on his own, it would be so easy to read personal malice into it (despite how much care you're actually taking about this situation). "Dude, why didn't you mention something?"
So, as sucky as it may be, if you care both about honesty and not hurting Ray, it's a no on meeting up with Jay.
(Jay and Ray are behaving inconsiderately/stupidly, both to one another but to you. Making him miss a flight? Wow; I hope Ray offered to help pay for the new ticket. And announcing travel plans on facebook and potentially letting slip info that he doesn't want someone to find out? Stupid, as you say. If you don't want it out, you gotta be more disciplined or suffer the consequences, do your own damage control...I hope these two do have some other, redeeming qualities so that you are happy about staying friends with them.)
posted by Sockin'inthefreeworld at 3:49 PM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
As a frequent traveler who often has to make choices like this, I am completely on Team Jay here (not that it even needs to be about taking sides!). I have friends that I appreciate as people but don't necessarily want to see on a short/stressful trip, and yeah, it would be nice if Jay kept Ray from seeing his post, but slips happen and he's not now required to hang out with Ray because of it.
This is my life. I am a frequent traveler. I do not expect other people to cover for me but I also don't have to hang out with someone because they want to hang out with me. Jay is being slightly uncool and is making this into a thing by his non-communication with Ray. That 's on him not on you. Ray is (or may be) being obsessive. That 's on him not on you. It's totally OK to hang out with Jay, but you have to check your own moral compass about how you deal with Ray. If it were me I think I'd be like "Eh I'm not sure what Jay's plans are" and "Yeah we got a quick meal but yeah we didn't call you." Own it. And
1. if Ray wants to turn that into a thing you can give HIM a pep talk about taking a hint from Jay because ... man
2. if Jay wants to make that into a thing you can tell him you don't lie for people because ... man
You can let Jay know you'd love to see him but won't/can't keep his visit an after-the-fact secret.
I sympathize with everyone here a little bit, but friendships are complicated and dealing with the places where feelings don't intersect is part, to me, of being a grownup.
posted by jessamyn at 4:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
This is my life. I am a frequent traveler. I do not expect other people to cover for me but I also don't have to hang out with someone because they want to hang out with me. Jay is being slightly uncool and is making this into a thing by his non-communication with Ray. That 's on him not on you. Ray is (or may be) being obsessive. That 's on him not on you. It's totally OK to hang out with Jay, but you have to check your own moral compass about how you deal with Ray. If it were me I think I'd be like "Eh I'm not sure what Jay's plans are" and "Yeah we got a quick meal but yeah we didn't call you." Own it. And
1. if Ray wants to turn that into a thing you can give HIM a pep talk about taking a hint from Jay because ... man
2. if Jay wants to make that into a thing you can tell him you don't lie for people because ... man
You can let Jay know you'd love to see him but won't/can't keep his visit an after-the-fact secret.
I sympathize with everyone here a little bit, but friendships are complicated and dealing with the places where feelings don't intersect is part, to me, of being a grownup.
posted by jessamyn at 4:45 PM on May 16, 2017 [12 favorites]
But I would not put it past Jay to, later on down the road, let it slip out that he and I hung out when he came through town. In fact I would almost bet on him doing that. I don't want to hurt Ray
Absent this fact, I think you might have several good options, but since this is the case, I think opting out of meeting with Jay is your best course. (Unless you can convince Jay to speak directly with Ray himself, and even that is likely to have a negative impact on your relationship with Ray. If he's "a bit obsessed with Jay," I can easily imagine him making Jay's decision to see you and not him all your fault.)
posted by layceepee at 4:48 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Absent this fact, I think you might have several good options, but since this is the case, I think opting out of meeting with Jay is your best course. (Unless you can convince Jay to speak directly with Ray himself, and even that is likely to have a negative impact on your relationship with Ray. If he's "a bit obsessed with Jay," I can easily imagine him making Jay's decision to see you and not him all your fault.)
posted by layceepee at 4:48 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
When Ray asks, tell him that yes, Jay's passing through town (no point lying to him, he's already found out through Facebook!) but you think his schedule is pretty tight and he should talk to Jay himself if he wants to make plans. If Ray tries to put it back on you that he wasn't included, tell him that both of these men are capable of contacting each other to make arrangements and you're not his PA. They can only put you in the middle of it if you let them. Don't lie but also don't take their guilt trip on board either. If Jay creates this drama, Jay can deal with the fallout.
posted by Jubey at 6:02 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 6:02 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
To be sure, I would caution against throwing your hands up completely and trying to erase yourself from the situation. It's pretty weird to be like "Yeah, we're all friends...but I don't know where you get talking to me about this!" From friendship.
posted by rhizome at 6:09 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 6:09 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Just say you and Jay haven't seen each other in a while and are planning a dinner with just the two of you. No lying required. If Ray is hurt, too bad. Jay should tell him that he looks forward to seeing him another time.
posted by chickenmagazine at 6:14 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by chickenmagazine at 6:14 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
The problem isn't that Ray is going to be hurt, it's that he is going to trample all over Jay's boundaries again and mess up another visit. If he's anything like the Rays I have known, he will badger one or both of you into allowing him to join you if he catches wind that Jay is in town. It's fine to be evasive with someone who will not respect your wishes.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:44 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:44 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Can you just tell Jay you can do that, but only if he can pretend he came through town without seeing either of you? So it's not weird with Ray. Then you can sympathize with Ray about that jerk Jay, not even calling up his old friends to party or whatnot.
Then you're double-screwed if Jay deliberately posts photos of you two together, or "hey, thanks for dinner" on your wall. But I still think a "Ok, you're right. Jay asked me not to and I didn't want to hurt your feelings because you're my friend" would make sense to most people enough to still be friends after being mad and hurt for a while. I don't know Ray though.
posted by ctmf at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Then you're double-screwed if Jay deliberately posts photos of you two together, or "hey, thanks for dinner" on your wall. But I still think a "Ok, you're right. Jay asked me not to and I didn't want to hurt your feelings because you're my friend" would make sense to most people enough to still be friends after being mad and hurt for a while. I don't know Ray though.
posted by ctmf at 7:01 PM on May 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
No reason to blather on to Ray about your evening activities, but if he asks, you give him a straight answer. And if he asks why Jay didn't invite Ray, simply tell him: "You'll have to ask Jay, I can't speak for him".
And then you change the subject, and never speak of it again.
posted by Doleful Creature at 7:42 PM on May 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
And then you change the subject, and never speak of it again.
posted by Doleful Creature at 7:42 PM on May 16, 2017 [4 favorites]
You say "Ray and I are very good friends". I would absolutely avoid any kind of lie by omission or otherwise to either party. And I would also realise that there's no way to be neutral in this. There is no way to sneakily do one thing and pretend another, without it potentially coming out in the future and (even if it doesn't) leaving you worried about the possibility.
You need to decide which is your closest friend, and tell them all. Either Ray is, and you tell him about the drama with Jay and decide together whether to go, not go, or confront Jay. Or you meet with Jay and have effectively distanced yourself from Ray. They are making you make the call and you cannot avoid it without the possibility of it blowing up in your face in the future. Make the call.
posted by tillsbury at 9:00 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
You need to decide which is your closest friend, and tell them all. Either Ray is, and you tell him about the drama with Jay and decide together whether to go, not go, or confront Jay. Or you meet with Jay and have effectively distanced yourself from Ray. They are making you make the call and you cannot avoid it without the possibility of it blowing up in your face in the future. Make the call.
posted by tillsbury at 9:00 PM on May 16, 2017 [2 favorites]
Best answer: White lies make the world go round.
IMO this is a what a white lie sounds like in this situation: "Hi Ray, yes I'm in town but not going to have time to see you, want to catch up with just Walker 1:1 this time to talk about some stuff. Definitely catch up next time through. Sincerely, Jay"
This is not what Jay is doing. Jay is sneaking and being deceitful and trying to get you to go along. Don't do it, it's not worth the headache. I don't even think the lie-by-omission is worth the trouble.
As a thought experiment that may be too Meta for Metafilter, imagine responses to Ray's AskMe post after the meeting if he's upset and wants to know what MeFites think of his friends. We've heard his perspective . . .
Scenario 1: You acted honestly: I think the response is sympathetic but mainly the message is as adults we aren't entitled to be included in everyone's social gatherings, sometimes there's other stuff going on.
Scenario 2: You lied: Pretty sure he gets told that neither of you are worth his time, you acted like children and clearly don't like or even respect him.
posted by mark k at 9:30 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
IMO this is a what a white lie sounds like in this situation: "Hi Ray, yes I'm in town but not going to have time to see you, want to catch up with just Walker 1:1 this time to talk about some stuff. Definitely catch up next time through. Sincerely, Jay"
This is not what Jay is doing. Jay is sneaking and being deceitful and trying to get you to go along. Don't do it, it's not worth the headache. I don't even think the lie-by-omission is worth the trouble.
As a thought experiment that may be too Meta for Metafilter, imagine responses to Ray's AskMe post after the meeting if he's upset and wants to know what MeFites think of his friends. We've heard his perspective . . .
Scenario 1: You acted honestly: I think the response is sympathetic but mainly the message is as adults we aren't entitled to be included in everyone's social gatherings, sometimes there's other stuff going on.
Scenario 2: You lied: Pretty sure he gets told that neither of you are worth his time, you acted like children and clearly don't like or even respect him.
posted by mark k at 9:30 PM on May 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Don't tell lies. Ever. It's that simple.
Ray: Do you know what Jay is doing?
You: Yes. He's having dinner with me.
Ray: WTF?
You: Take it up with Jay, mate.
Alternatively:
Hi Jay. I don't really feel right seeing you without Ray. I get that you two have issues but I'd rather not be in the middle. Let's leave dinner this time and we can try something different next time.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:00 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
Ray: Do you know what Jay is doing?
You: Yes. He's having dinner with me.
Ray: WTF?
You: Take it up with Jay, mate.
Alternatively:
Hi Jay. I don't really feel right seeing you without Ray. I get that you two have issues but I'd rather not be in the middle. Let's leave dinner this time and we can try something different next time.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:00 PM on May 16, 2017 [5 favorites]
"Hey Jay! I was thinking about it and the situation with Ray is awkward for me. I think we should skip dinner this time. But I wish you the best at your new job and hope to catch up later this year."
That's what I'd do.
posted by hungrytiger at 2:26 AM on May 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
That's what I'd do.
posted by hungrytiger at 2:26 AM on May 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
It seems to me that Jay is trying to give Ray the slow fade. Not answering his messages though, after making a big facebook announcement is frigging rude and immature. As someone who leans on the side of non-confrontation, I can sympathize, but Ray needs to handle his own shit and keep you out of it. It'll take just a few seconds for him to message Ray about dinner, "Sorry, dude, that won't be possible." Then if Ray keeps badgering him, Jay should feel free to ignore him.
posted by LuckySeven~ at 5:33 AM on May 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by LuckySeven~ at 5:33 AM on May 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, don't obligate yourself to lie to anyone. Tell Jay you won't lie to Ray -- although you understand why Jay doesn't want to deal with Ray, and he's under no obligation to do so, he can't shovel that at you. And don't lie to Ray either -- he's also putting you in a shitty position by asking you for info on Jay, and frankly it sounds like Jay is kind of justified in not wanting to interact with Ray. Seriously, anytime you say "he won't take no for an answer" that is...that is like the biggest red flag. Draw your boundaries with both of these people. You don't have to speak for Jay to Ray, but you sure as shit should speak for yourself.
I suppose I'm mainly curious at this point if you're own ambivalence about how to handle this is due to how you imagine Ray taking the news. Like, you don't want to deal with this person because he won't respect your boundaries either? that's it's own issue. Does Ray show any indication that pestering you about Jay when Jay won't respond to his messages is um...not actually ok? Like once, ok. But repeatedly?
It's possible this is a guy who needs to have things spelled out (which is also not really ok -- without getting into ability to read social cues etc, demanding that all social interactions happen on the terms you're comfortable with is it's own issue), but...how does he react when things are spelled out?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:51 AM on May 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I suppose I'm mainly curious at this point if you're own ambivalence about how to handle this is due to how you imagine Ray taking the news. Like, you don't want to deal with this person because he won't respect your boundaries either? that's it's own issue. Does Ray show any indication that pestering you about Jay when Jay won't respond to his messages is um...not actually ok? Like once, ok. But repeatedly?
It's possible this is a guy who needs to have things spelled out (which is also not really ok -- without getting into ability to read social cues etc, demanding that all social interactions happen on the terms you're comfortable with is it's own issue), but...how does he react when things are spelled out?
posted by schadenfrau at 7:51 AM on May 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
What stands out to me is Jay's willingness to keep stringing Ray along for his (Jay's) convenience, without any thought for Ray's feelings. Jay's certainly willing to communicate with Ray when it comes to Jay getting free rides to the airport (and by the way, do you have ANY confirmation other than Jay's word that Ray was the cause of that missed flight?), but he can't even be bothered to respond to multiple messages from Ray about this short visit to your city? Rude, very rude.
Ray probably wrote those multiple messages in hopes of getting an answer from someone who he THOUGHT was his friend, not in some sort of stalkerish fit.
If you lie to Ray, you will lose him as a friend --- as you say, there'll be no way to keep it secret: Jay himself will let the cat out of the bag. If you refuse to lie for Jay, you MIGHT lose his friendship --- he might drop you, unless you are useful TO HIM in other ways. I'd keep Ray, he sounds like the better friend.
posted by easily confused at 1:31 PM on May 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Ray probably wrote those multiple messages in hopes of getting an answer from someone who he THOUGHT was his friend, not in some sort of stalkerish fit.
If you lie to Ray, you will lose him as a friend --- as you say, there'll be no way to keep it secret: Jay himself will let the cat out of the bag. If you refuse to lie for Jay, you MIGHT lose his friendship --- he might drop you, unless you are useful TO HIM in other ways. I'd keep Ray, he sounds like the better friend.
posted by easily confused at 1:31 PM on May 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks to everyone who responded! I sat with it for awhile, and decided that what felt best to me was to forego seeing Jay this trip. I told Jay that I didn't want to lie, even by omission, to Ray, so I was sorry, but I would have to pass on dinner this time. I wished him luck on his new job and I said I hoped to get out to his new place and visit him soon. He said OK he understood, but he was disappointed.
I am really sad not to be seeing Jay, but I felt a big relief and a weight off my shoulders once I made the decision to skip dinner, so I know that was a good choice for me.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 11:04 PM on May 17, 2017 [10 favorites]
I am really sad not to be seeing Jay, but I felt a big relief and a weight off my shoulders once I made the decision to skip dinner, so I know that was a good choice for me.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 11:04 PM on May 17, 2017 [10 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by something something at 11:42 AM on May 16, 2017 [40 favorites]