What is this symbol on a restored Messerschmidt BF 109?
April 23, 2017 1:32 PM Subscribe
(this question inevitably deals with swastikas, as the symbol in question is in place of a swastika. I would rather not wind up debating the merits of the substitution in question - I'm just curious as to whether it's a standard device of some kind. Hopefully we all agree that swastikas and what they represent are bad.)
TL:DR: A restored Messerschmidt BF 109 displays a device on its tail that is NOT a swastika, but appears designed to represent where the swastika was on the original. Is this some kind of a standard in non-swastika presentation?
I watched the show on Netflix: Plane Resurrection. Most of the episodes deal with the restoration of allied aircraft of the WWII era. None of them completely focus on WWII German aircraft, but there is one where a man is restoring a WWI Fokker Triplane (i.e. the aircraft made famous by the Red Baron). In one of these episodes, probably this one, a restored, airworthy Messerschmitt BF 109 (German WWII era) is briefly shown in a background shot, but not commented on.
It displays a device on its tail, placed exactly where a swastika was in the original paint scheme, that is simply an outline of a square with gaps in the lines. The gaps are in the opposite orientation from those that a swastika would make; the lines are thinner than those of a swastika, and there are no lines or any other graphic inside the empty square.
It actually seems graphically well-done, in that it acknowledges that a hateful symbol was there, but it cannot be overtly confused with said symbol. I'm reminded (for better or worse) of the Marlboro "barcode" not-logos placed on some racing cars after European bans on tobacco advertising.
So, fellow seekers of obscure knowledge, is this symbol a standardized surrogate, and does it have a name? Has it been used for good, or have some hateful wankers managed to pollute its use by getting it tattooed on themselves next to the Pepe knockoff?
Here's a picture, in which, maddenly enough, half the device is seen in the upper right corner of the photo. But since the device is symetrical, you can get the idea of it. This photo did not come from the show I was watching, and may or may not be from the same hanger (I assume WWII plane restoration is a fairly small world). There are NO swastikas in view in this picture, but there are probably some elsewhere in the photo gallery (on other planes), so be aware of that if you'd rather not see one.
I watched the show on Netflix: Plane Resurrection. Most of the episodes deal with the restoration of allied aircraft of the WWII era. None of them completely focus on WWII German aircraft, but there is one where a man is restoring a WWI Fokker Triplane (i.e. the aircraft made famous by the Red Baron). In one of these episodes, probably this one, a restored, airworthy Messerschmitt BF 109 (German WWII era) is briefly shown in a background shot, but not commented on.
It displays a device on its tail, placed exactly where a swastika was in the original paint scheme, that is simply an outline of a square with gaps in the lines. The gaps are in the opposite orientation from those that a swastika would make; the lines are thinner than those of a swastika, and there are no lines or any other graphic inside the empty square.
It actually seems graphically well-done, in that it acknowledges that a hateful symbol was there, but it cannot be overtly confused with said symbol. I'm reminded (for better or worse) of the Marlboro "barcode" not-logos placed on some racing cars after European bans on tobacco advertising.
So, fellow seekers of obscure knowledge, is this symbol a standardized surrogate, and does it have a name? Has it been used for good, or have some hateful wankers managed to pollute its use by getting it tattooed on themselves next to the Pepe knockoff?
Here's a picture, in which, maddenly enough, half the device is seen in the upper right corner of the photo. But since the device is symetrical, you can get the idea of it. This photo did not come from the show I was watching, and may or may not be from the same hanger (I assume WWII plane restoration is a fairly small world). There are NO swastikas in view in this picture, but there are probably some elsewhere in the photo gallery (on other planes), so be aware of that if you'd rather not see one.
Reminds me of this used in the USA. Except of course not for the same reasons.
posted by tilde at 3:10 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by tilde at 3:10 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Is this some kind of a standard in non-swastika presentation?
In the 1970s I heard of German neo-nazis wearing this symbol (covertly, inside the jacket, for surreptitious identification). However, I don't see it coming up on an image search of 'neo-nazi swastikas' so maybe it's fallen out of favor.
And yes, German law prohibits display of any swastika, and I've seen the result of this on airship posters for sale there -- the flags on the Hindenburg tail-fins with the swastika 'whited-out' so the flag's just a white circle in a red rectangle. Or with the swastika arms extended so it becomes a 2-by-2 grid, instead.
posted by Rash at 3:14 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the 1970s I heard of German neo-nazis wearing this symbol (covertly, inside the jacket, for surreptitious identification). However, I don't see it coming up on an image search of 'neo-nazi swastikas' so maybe it's fallen out of favor.
And yes, German law prohibits display of any swastika, and I've seen the result of this on airship posters for sale there -- the flags on the Hindenburg tail-fins with the swastika 'whited-out' so the flag's just a white circle in a red rectangle. Or with the swastika arms extended so it becomes a 2-by-2 grid, instead.
posted by Rash at 3:14 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I assume it's a new replacement for a swastika.
Other swastika substitutes include a black diamond or omitting the swastika altogether.
FWIW, it's also used frequently in WWII aviation games, like "IL-2." Here's an example with a Focke-Wulf FW-190 and another with a Junkers Ju-87G.
I've long been fascinated by WWII aviation and markings/camouflage in general, but I honestly don't know when this particular shape came into use.
posted by the matching mole at 5:23 PM on April 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
Other swastika substitutes include a black diamond or omitting the swastika altogether.
FWIW, it's also used frequently in WWII aviation games, like "IL-2." Here's an example with a Focke-Wulf FW-190 and another with a Junkers Ju-87G.
I've long been fascinated by WWII aviation and markings/camouflage in general, but I honestly don't know when this particular shape came into use.
posted by the matching mole at 5:23 PM on April 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's something to be said about restoring a Messerschmitt on TV and not being mistaken for hate crime propaganda. I'd go with network censors. No, it is not standard - which is why I go with network censors...
While I am not an expert, I've looked at probably a couple thousand images of German WW2 planes in my lifetime. My dad was an avid modeler, and regularly did specialized decals for authenticity. We watched countless hours of WW2 documentaries, had every fine scale modeler magazine back to the mid 70s, had probably 30-40 coffee table books on just aircraft insignias... and I can say - that I have never ever seen an open box as a valid/accepted replacement.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:49 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
While I am not an expert, I've looked at probably a couple thousand images of German WW2 planes in my lifetime. My dad was an avid modeler, and regularly did specialized decals for authenticity. We watched countless hours of WW2 documentaries, had every fine scale modeler magazine back to the mid 70s, had probably 30-40 coffee table books on just aircraft insignias... and I can say - that I have never ever seen an open box as a valid/accepted replacement.
posted by Nanukthedog at 5:49 PM on April 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for that video game example, matching mole, that does tend to confirm it's a standard replacement.
To give a little background on the TV/Netflix show, I don't think that these were added in post; I'm pretty sure it's how the planes are really painted. The show, and the airplanes (or should I say aeroplanes) involved seem to be based on British soil, so participation in airshows in Germany where the swastika is outright illegal seems likely.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:07 PM on April 23, 2017
To give a little background on the TV/Netflix show, I don't think that these were added in post; I'm pretty sure it's how the planes are really painted. The show, and the airplanes (or should I say aeroplanes) involved seem to be based on British soil, so participation in airshows in Germany where the swastika is outright illegal seems likely.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:07 PM on April 23, 2017
FWIW, it's also used frequently in WWII aviation games, like "IL-2."
Working off of the matching mole's mention of the IL-2 game, I found this discussion asking about replacement symbols*. Some of the images are gone/broken, but it looks like they call this symbol "hakenkreuz without center".
The word hakenkreuz, which I'm not familiar with, looks to be the German word for swastika and is apparently a little more appropriate here since we're not talking about the historical symbol used in and around India. And "without center" because the box-with-gaps symbol is really just missing the inner lines of a swastika.
Google doesn't seem to know about anyone else using this phrase but I think its works as an accurate description.
*Uh, also a lot of weird discussion of "what's the big deal" and "historical accuracy matters" if you go down this rabbit hole
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:37 AM on April 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Working off of the matching mole's mention of the IL-2 game, I found this discussion asking about replacement symbols*. Some of the images are gone/broken, but it looks like they call this symbol "hakenkreuz without center".
The word hakenkreuz, which I'm not familiar with, looks to be the German word for swastika and is apparently a little more appropriate here since we're not talking about the historical symbol used in and around India. And "without center" because the box-with-gaps symbol is really just missing the inner lines of a swastika.
Google doesn't seem to know about anyone else using this phrase but I think its works as an accurate description.
*Uh, also a lot of weird discussion of "what's the big deal" and "historical accuracy matters" if you go down this rabbit hole
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 7:37 AM on April 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
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It appears from what people say here that inverting the sign, or representing it only in fragments that clearly indicate its outlines, is pretty much a standard workaround, while I don't see anyone mention that such kinds of sign have specific names.
posted by Namlit at 2:08 PM on April 23, 2017 [2 favorites]