Getting to sleep without alcohol
April 2, 2017 2:31 AM Subscribe
I drink to fall asleep every night. I've had issues with insomnia forever, and am looking for other options than alcohol to avoid spending hours every night waiting to fall asleep. Snowflakey details after the fold.
I drink to get to sleep. I've had insomnia as long as I can remember, and have a recent diagnosis of severe obstructive sleep apnea. I also have long-term issues with depression and anxiety; these are well under control but I still take 30mg Paxil in the morning. (I suspect this affects getting to sleep.)
Basically, I drink half a bottle to a full bottle of wine every night to fall asleep. (More often the latter.) I want to stop that. What makes stopping difficult is that without alcohol or sleeping pills I very often just don't fall asleep. I'll lie in bed for hours - sometimes the entire night - without drifting off. I'm the type of person who has trouble resting their mind: I find doing nothing unbearable, and so the period where I'm too tired to do anything interesting but not asleep is really miserable.
I should be clear that I'm looking for (legal) chemical (herbs, non-addictive sleeping pills) or physiological (epsom salts baths) solutions. No counting backwards from anything or standing on one leg, please.
I'm open to stuff like herbal tea, but I find camomile too gentle (not effective enough). I'm only interested in legal options (marijuana is not legal where I live, and I'm not interested in that anyway). What has worked for others dealing with insomnia and/or taking Paxil? I'm after any solutions that let me ditch alcohol and avoid the miserable hours lying in bed just waiting.
Other relevant info: single, caffeine use low to moderate and early in day, aware of normal sleep hygiene advice and follow most of it, but it's not quite helping enough, have read previous suggested AskMes.
Thanks everyone!
I drink to get to sleep. I've had insomnia as long as I can remember, and have a recent diagnosis of severe obstructive sleep apnea. I also have long-term issues with depression and anxiety; these are well under control but I still take 30mg Paxil in the morning. (I suspect this affects getting to sleep.)
Basically, I drink half a bottle to a full bottle of wine every night to fall asleep. (More often the latter.) I want to stop that. What makes stopping difficult is that without alcohol or sleeping pills I very often just don't fall asleep. I'll lie in bed for hours - sometimes the entire night - without drifting off. I'm the type of person who has trouble resting their mind: I find doing nothing unbearable, and so the period where I'm too tired to do anything interesting but not asleep is really miserable.
I should be clear that I'm looking for (legal) chemical (herbs, non-addictive sleeping pills) or physiological (epsom salts baths) solutions. No counting backwards from anything or standing on one leg, please.
I'm open to stuff like herbal tea, but I find camomile too gentle (not effective enough). I'm only interested in legal options (marijuana is not legal where I live, and I'm not interested in that anyway). What has worked for others dealing with insomnia and/or taking Paxil? I'm after any solutions that let me ditch alcohol and avoid the miserable hours lying in bed just waiting.
Other relevant info: single, caffeine use low to moderate and early in day, aware of normal sleep hygiene advice and follow most of it, but it's not quite helping enough, have read previous suggested AskMes.
Thanks everyone!
Have you tried taking a couple of Benadryl before bed? Used to work for me, though not so much anymore.
posted by old_growler at 3:05 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by old_growler at 3:05 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
In my experience herbal remedies don't do much for sleep. I agree that chronic alcohol administration as a sleep aid is a very bad idea and may likely contribute to obstructive appealing. A pharmaceutical would be a very good idea to get you out of the nightly alcohol habit. Something like gabapentin or baclofen. These are non-narcotic, gabba receptor agonists so they induce muscle and mind relaxation. Your Dr will advise if a sleep is safe given your condition. I can't take benadryl because it exacerbate restless leg syndrome but that is a nonscript option.
posted by waving at 3:34 AM on April 2, 2017
posted by waving at 3:34 AM on April 2, 2017
I have found both hops and valerian to be somewhat effective at helping sleep. A preparation prepared for me by a naturopath that had really significant doses of valerian and some other herbs I have forgotten (sorry) to be the best of the natural remedies so you could look at consulting someone like that to help you.
I have also found the sedating antihistamine doxylamine succinate, which is sold under various brand names, to be ridiculously effective and I will sleep if I take that. For me the hangover from this is pretty insane the next day so I don't usually go down this route but it doesn't do that to everyone and it may be worth trying.
posted by deadwax at 3:46 AM on April 2, 2017
I have also found the sedating antihistamine doxylamine succinate, which is sold under various brand names, to be ridiculously effective and I will sleep if I take that. For me the hangover from this is pretty insane the next day so I don't usually go down this route but it doesn't do that to everyone and it may be worth trying.
posted by deadwax at 3:46 AM on April 2, 2017
Have you spoken to a doctor? Because if you're going to cut out alcohol you may need some assistance doing so safely. They may also have some suggestions for you.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:43 AM on April 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:43 AM on April 2, 2017 [14 favorites]
I've dealt with insomnia while taking Prozac; to address it the doctor gave me a tiny amount of trazodone to take in addition. It did balance me out-- I was generally hyper on Prozac-- but didn't get rid of the sleep problem altogether. Both melatonin and benedryl have worked for me at times, but they both have side effects.
Having been through periods of time using alcohol to get to sleep, I've had rebound anxiety on stopping, and the insomnia seemed to get much worse, which makes it very tempting to go back to alcohol. My impression is it's common to have to get over a hump of up to a couple of weeks. After that your quality of sleep gets better, even if there are nights when the quantity doesn't. So, yeah, go to the doctor and see about getting pharmaceutical help.
posted by BibiRose at 5:08 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
Having been through periods of time using alcohol to get to sleep, I've had rebound anxiety on stopping, and the insomnia seemed to get much worse, which makes it very tempting to go back to alcohol. My impression is it's common to have to get over a hump of up to a couple of weeks. After that your quality of sleep gets better, even if there are nights when the quantity doesn't. So, yeah, go to the doctor and see about getting pharmaceutical help.
posted by BibiRose at 5:08 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
The pharmacist consultants I work with had us change the administration time of Paxil to bedtime for everyone about two years back as it's (now) considered sedating. It's possible this change would help.
Melatonin is a good one - try the dissolving or sublingual forms, I find they work better. Valerian capsules are less awful than the tea because it smells like gym socks. Given your alcohol intake, a B vitamin supplement wouldn't hurt. Over the counter preparations which include some or all of the above exist; I don't have names, but I've found a good selection at both GNC and Whole Foods.
posted by cobaltnine at 5:39 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Melatonin is a good one - try the dissolving or sublingual forms, I find they work better. Valerian capsules are less awful than the tea because it smells like gym socks. Given your alcohol intake, a B vitamin supplement wouldn't hurt. Over the counter preparations which include some or all of the above exist; I don't have names, but I've found a good selection at both GNC and Whole Foods.
posted by cobaltnine at 5:39 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I have insomnia and take antidepressants, and without chemical assistance I basically never get sleepy at bedtime - could easily stay up all night. With my doctor's approval I take diphenhydramine every night. (Diphenhydramine is the generic ingredient in Benadryl that makes you sleepy.) I usually just take 25 mg, occasionally 50 mg if I'm feeling especially wired.
I find that if I don't drink alcohol, exercise almost every day and take the diphenhydramine on a regular schedule my sleep is pretty good, better than it's ever been basically.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
I find that if I don't drink alcohol, exercise almost every day and take the diphenhydramine on a regular schedule my sleep is pretty good, better than it's ever been basically.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 5:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
How much exercise are you getting? My lifelong insomnia issue got under control as soon as I figured out that I need more activity than "normal" for a typical U.S. lifestyle. I aim for 60-90 min a day and usually most of that is just walking that I've worked into my errands or commute. Melatonin helped too.
posted by horizons at 6:34 AM on April 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by horizons at 6:34 AM on April 2, 2017 [7 favorites]
Are you getting the sleep apnea treated? I have a (different but related) sleep disorder and one thing I remember learning is that after a while, sleep can sort of become a traumatic experience for your body that can make falling asleep much harder because your body/mind are sort of anxiously anticipating stress and resist.
My disorder is effectively treated now, but I am still very slowly tapering off using the various (otc and prescribed) drugs I'd been using to help me sleep because the stress response can linger even after the physiological symptoms improve.
Over years of chronic bad sleep (before I found a doctor that would prescribe me a sleep study), I ended up using very low doses of (prescription) ativan or klonopin almost every night, plus either diphenhydramine HCI, doxylaminate succinate, or hydroxyzine (rx). I found going more than two nights in a row of the same one of those reduced the effectiveness.
Now, I rarely need the supplementaries and I am on an even smaller dose of the benzos - and working on skipping more frequently (under medical guidance, the dose is now too small to split) and/or replacing with valerian, which has been by far the most helpful non-prescription sleep aid for me. Eventually, I am hoping to be able to ditch *all* of that, and maybe even my anti depressants too (my sleep disorder is strongly correlated with depression, which makes sense since chronic sleep deprivation can be psychologically devastating), but for now I feel better than I have in a while and I'm happy to move slowly and cautiously.
Basically, if you're looking for replacements for the alcohol, and if your sleep issues may be anxiety related, that's what ended up (through plenty of trial and error) working for me. But... I think you're really going to need to get an effective treatment for your sleep apnea.
Good luck!
posted by Salamandrous at 6:41 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
My disorder is effectively treated now, but I am still very slowly tapering off using the various (otc and prescribed) drugs I'd been using to help me sleep because the stress response can linger even after the physiological symptoms improve.
Over years of chronic bad sleep (before I found a doctor that would prescribe me a sleep study), I ended up using very low doses of (prescription) ativan or klonopin almost every night, plus either diphenhydramine HCI, doxylaminate succinate, or hydroxyzine (rx). I found going more than two nights in a row of the same one of those reduced the effectiveness.
Now, I rarely need the supplementaries and I am on an even smaller dose of the benzos - and working on skipping more frequently (under medical guidance, the dose is now too small to split) and/or replacing with valerian, which has been by far the most helpful non-prescription sleep aid for me. Eventually, I am hoping to be able to ditch *all* of that, and maybe even my anti depressants too (my sleep disorder is strongly correlated with depression, which makes sense since chronic sleep deprivation can be psychologically devastating), but for now I feel better than I have in a while and I'm happy to move slowly and cautiously.
Basically, if you're looking for replacements for the alcohol, and if your sleep issues may be anxiety related, that's what ended up (through plenty of trial and error) working for me. But... I think you're really going to need to get an effective treatment for your sleep apnea.
Good luck!
posted by Salamandrous at 6:41 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
First, since you have been to a sleep doctor, he's the one who should be answering the question. I'm pretty sure he would nix any real depressants like benzodiazepines.
I agree with the comments on herbs. I have used a product from the The Vitamin Shoppe called "Advanced Sleep Therapy" which has small amounts of 7 different OTC substances including Valerian, Melatonin and GABA. It works for me. I wouldn't count on it working for you, but it's cheap and easily available.
I never found that alcohol was good at inducing sleep, especially in large quantities (until the passed-out-drunk stage, of course). If two glasses of wine doesn't do the trick, I don't think alcohol will, at least in quantities that don't compromise your overall health.
You might find it interesting to wear a sleep monitor of the "fitness watch" type. They don't actually know you are asleep, just if you are lying still. But it might indicate that you are getting more actual sleep than you think.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree with the comments on herbs. I have used a product from the The Vitamin Shoppe called "Advanced Sleep Therapy" which has small amounts of 7 different OTC substances including Valerian, Melatonin and GABA. It works for me. I wouldn't count on it working for you, but it's cheap and easily available.
I never found that alcohol was good at inducing sleep, especially in large quantities (until the passed-out-drunk stage, of course). If two glasses of wine doesn't do the trick, I don't think alcohol will, at least in quantities that don't compromise your overall health.
You might find it interesting to wear a sleep monitor of the "fitness watch" type. They don't actually know you are asleep, just if you are lying still. But it might indicate that you are getting more actual sleep than you think.
posted by SemiSalt at 6:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I get racy-mind-that-wont-shut-up-and-let-me-sleep too, and slept terribly for most of my life. What I do now is put on an audiobook before trying to sleep - generally a book I have heard before and enjoy, so that my mind has something to focus on other than fretting, but since the story is familiar it doesn't keep me awake wondering what will happen next. This has worked like a charm, and I sleep amazingly now. It changed my life! There are also podcasts designed to do exactly this as well.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 6:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 6:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [8 favorites]
You say you have a diagnosis for sleep apnea, are you being treated for that? If not, definitely press for that.
I used benadryl for this for a long time (in connection with a income or audiobook as mentioned above), until I read that benadryl is linked to dementia. I wanted to quit so I talked to my doctor, and after we got done talking through my issues with falling asleep I actually wound up with a prescription for an RLS medication which has worked really well. I'm not at all suggesting that the same med will work for you, just that this is worth a discussion with your doc. Definitely include the alcohol use in that discussion.
posted by bunderful at 6:57 AM on April 2, 2017
I used benadryl for this for a long time (in connection with a income or audiobook as mentioned above), until I read that benadryl is linked to dementia. I wanted to quit so I talked to my doctor, and after we got done talking through my issues with falling asleep I actually wound up with a prescription for an RLS medication which has worked really well. I'm not at all suggesting that the same med will work for you, just that this is worth a discussion with your doc. Definitely include the alcohol use in that discussion.
posted by bunderful at 6:57 AM on April 2, 2017
Don't wade into dangerous territory with other meds and herbs like valerian and melatonin, etc. because they can interact with prescription drugs. Since you've been to a doctor, take prescriptions and have sleep apnea, this is best left to medical professionals, like your sleep apnea doctor.
You may as well get this sorted with them.
I just want to add a note of support -- sleeping problems are really the worst, but once you're able to hit that "reset" button and train yourself back into restorative sleep, you will feel so much better.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:04 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
You may as well get this sorted with them.
I just want to add a note of support -- sleeping problems are really the worst, but once you're able to hit that "reset" button and train yourself back into restorative sleep, you will feel so much better.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 7:04 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
Getting good medical help has been key for me. There are other antidepressants that won't keep you awake, maybe ask about adding or switching?
I also ditched a lot of sleep hygiene advice, and now if I can't sleep after a few hours, I hang out on the couch watching tv. If I can't sleep, I may as well be enjoying myself! It's cut a lot of sleep related anxiety. Good luck!
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:29 AM on April 2, 2017
I also ditched a lot of sleep hygiene advice, and now if I can't sleep after a few hours, I hang out on the couch watching tv. If I can't sleep, I may as well be enjoying myself! It's cut a lot of sleep related anxiety. Good luck!
posted by Valancy Rachel at 7:29 AM on April 2, 2017
I read books on my kindle with the backlight turned down low. No other screens allowed. Helps me drift off. We also have some ambient rain playing gently for white noise.
posted by arcticseal at 7:43 AM on April 2, 2017
posted by arcticseal at 7:43 AM on April 2, 2017
First: is apnea being dealt with?
No counting backwards from anything or standing on one leg, please.
How about vigorous exercise? That is what helped me. I was one of those "Stay awake basically all night, drinking to shut my brain down" people. I am now someone who goes to sleep in about 30 minutes 19 days out of 20. What worked for me
- benadryl at first then weaning off of it. The first thing you need to do is deal with the misery that is tapering off the alcohol and that's going to be a pain at first but it's its own thing not necessarily your body's set point for sleep
- you say you're aware of normal sleep hygiene but don't give details. Are you turning off screens, using the bedroom only for sleeping, dimming the lights earlier in the evening, that sort of thing?
- mindfulness meditation (listening to guided meditations that were specifically directed towards sleeping) helped. I don't know if this is too "counting backwards" for you but for me the big realization was that thinking about not-sleeping was really what was keeping me awake. The "doing nothing" that you find unbearable is likely the state you need to get into in order to sleep. I know this sucks, I'm not saying you need to just suck it up but you need to work with that issue more than ... getting a better pillow or something.
- pills? At some level sleeping pills are healthier for you than that much alcohol. I take a small amount of ambien on nights I NEED to sleep and can't and that is helpful for me. Obvs ask your doctor but this helped break the anxiety spiral for me about sleeping. I have a plan if I need it and all else fails.
So keep in mind that alcohol dependency is its own sort of shitty thing and you may need to fight with that and have sleep issues be a secondary issue and it will be crappy for a little bit but it will not be crappy forever. There's some brain rewiring that needs to happen as par of this and your brain will fight it but you can do this. Best of luck.
posted by jessamyn at 7:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
No counting backwards from anything or standing on one leg, please.
How about vigorous exercise? That is what helped me. I was one of those "Stay awake basically all night, drinking to shut my brain down" people. I am now someone who goes to sleep in about 30 minutes 19 days out of 20. What worked for me
- benadryl at first then weaning off of it. The first thing you need to do is deal with the misery that is tapering off the alcohol and that's going to be a pain at first but it's its own thing not necessarily your body's set point for sleep
- you say you're aware of normal sleep hygiene but don't give details. Are you turning off screens, using the bedroom only for sleeping, dimming the lights earlier in the evening, that sort of thing?
- mindfulness meditation (listening to guided meditations that were specifically directed towards sleeping) helped. I don't know if this is too "counting backwards" for you but for me the big realization was that thinking about not-sleeping was really what was keeping me awake. The "doing nothing" that you find unbearable is likely the state you need to get into in order to sleep. I know this sucks, I'm not saying you need to just suck it up but you need to work with that issue more than ... getting a better pillow or something.
- pills? At some level sleeping pills are healthier for you than that much alcohol. I take a small amount of ambien on nights I NEED to sleep and can't and that is helpful for me. Obvs ask your doctor but this helped break the anxiety spiral for me about sleeping. I have a plan if I need it and all else fails.
So keep in mind that alcohol dependency is its own sort of shitty thing and you may need to fight with that and have sleep issues be a secondary issue and it will be crappy for a little bit but it will not be crappy forever. There's some brain rewiring that needs to happen as par of this and your brain will fight it but you can do this. Best of luck.
posted by jessamyn at 7:54 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]
To distract an anxious can't sleep mind: old time radio detective stories, set to turn off afterward. Or really boring audio books, like The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire or somesuch. Turn it so low that you can only just hear it.
No blue light after dark. Likewise, in this new hellish era, no news of any kind including FB after dinner.
Cold bedroom.
I take melatonin, 5-HTP and a single benadryl at bedtime.
Honestly, it is the ritual of the boring stories at bedtime that help me more than anything. I still wake up at 3am every night. I get up, take a pee, and come back to listen to 15-30 min of another boring story/podcast.
posted by RedEmma at 7:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
No blue light after dark. Likewise, in this new hellish era, no news of any kind including FB after dinner.
Cold bedroom.
I take melatonin, 5-HTP and a single benadryl at bedtime.
Honestly, it is the ritual of the boring stories at bedtime that help me more than anything. I still wake up at 3am every night. I get up, take a pee, and come back to listen to 15-30 min of another boring story/podcast.
posted by RedEmma at 7:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Drinking to get to sleep leads to really poor sleep. I did it for years. Your sleep doctor, or really any doctor, will tell you that the alcohol interferes with the action of any anti-depressant, so it is a self defeating cycle if anxiety/depression is causing your insomnia, which is what it was with me.
I quit drinking. Entirely. One day at a time I quit drinking. Horrible sleep for the first couple of weeks, but it got better. Now, I remember to take my prozac every morning, and I take 100mg of trazadone at night, both doctor prescribed. My sleep doctor is a bit if a sleep hygine freak, he told me that trazadone was the only sleep aid he considered OK, ask your doc. Totally non-addicitve. That and a boring book, usually one I have read before that is divided into short chapters.
posted by rudd135 at 8:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I quit drinking. Entirely. One day at a time I quit drinking. Horrible sleep for the first couple of weeks, but it got better. Now, I remember to take my prozac every morning, and I take 100mg of trazadone at night, both doctor prescribed. My sleep doctor is a bit if a sleep hygine freak, he told me that trazadone was the only sleep aid he considered OK, ask your doc. Totally non-addicitve. That and a boring book, usually one I have read before that is divided into short chapters.
posted by rudd135 at 8:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Nth tiring yourself out with exercise (daily; also good for mood management), a cool, dark room (strict light control, also *sound* control if eg street noise is an issue), and - taking out the alcohol thing - Klonopin or Benadryl (for sleep emergencies). I can't imagine it would make any sense to use them while alcohol's an issue, though.
When things aren't too bad, an herbal concoction with valerian and hops can be helpful at double the recommended consumption. I find melatonin weird (gives me hangovers at doses sold in health food stores, concerned about hormonal impact with smaller doses).
I also have to distract myself from the feeling of losing consciousness. I'll sometimes put on standup comedy shows I've seen a million times. Or else will have random YouTube stuff on autoplay (often it's makeup or craft tutorials, or unboxing videos - I just like a low-key, slow, sing-songy cadence). Anything that's *supposed* to put you to sleep (like white noise or audio of rainstorms) stresses me out too much.
Def get the sleep apnea addressed & some solid medical guidance... Withdrawal from alcohol + Paxil complicates things in ways you probably shouldn't mess with without help.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:51 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
When things aren't too bad, an herbal concoction with valerian and hops can be helpful at double the recommended consumption. I find melatonin weird (gives me hangovers at doses sold in health food stores, concerned about hormonal impact with smaller doses).
I also have to distract myself from the feeling of losing consciousness. I'll sometimes put on standup comedy shows I've seen a million times. Or else will have random YouTube stuff on autoplay (often it's makeup or craft tutorials, or unboxing videos - I just like a low-key, slow, sing-songy cadence). Anything that's *supposed* to put you to sleep (like white noise or audio of rainstorms) stresses me out too much.
Def get the sleep apnea addressed & some solid medical guidance... Withdrawal from alcohol + Paxil complicates things in ways you probably shouldn't mess with without help.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:51 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Uses more substances is probably not the answer. It's important to treat underlying issues. If you have anxiety that is very likely the cause of your insomnia. Seek help from mental health professionals and if you think you have addiction seek help now.
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by loveandhappiness at 8:57 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Please talk to your sleep doc about treating the apnea. My sleep got better with c-pap. Even better with finding a better mask. The noise of the c-pap works as white noise for me. Trazodone is something I've been taking for years. You start at a low dose and work yourself up. I've been tapering down, but ran into some problems and went back up. It's not the end of the world. I'm on Paxil but don't find that it affects my sleep.
If you're not seeing a psychiatrist, I encourage you to do so. They're pros at this. I wouldn't try herbs or anything based on your prescription drug use. It's a good question to ask your doc.
Good luck. Insomnia sucks.
posted by kathrynm at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
If you're not seeing a psychiatrist, I encourage you to do so. They're pros at this. I wouldn't try herbs or anything based on your prescription drug use. It's a good question to ask your doc.
Good luck. Insomnia sucks.
posted by kathrynm at 9:15 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
This needs to be managed by a psych doctor, but my night-time racing mind was cured by stimulants (slow-release ADD meds) just before bed. It seems to make no sense and makes pharmacists nervous, but it worked for me.
posted by A Friend of Dug [sock] at 9:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by A Friend of Dug [sock] at 9:45 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Echoing the advice of others to go see your doctor to talk about not just the sleep issue, but the process of weaning yourself off your alcohol consumption as well. They will understand what you can and cannot mix together, especially when it comes to supplements and herbs others are recommending.
When I had chronic "the body is willing, but the mind is not" insomnia, I ended up with a subclinical prescription of amitriptyline, which is commonly prescribed off-label for insomnia. However, it metabolizes in the liver, so you can't mix it with alcohol at all. It is an understatement to say that it changed my life; literally every aspect of my life improved when I went on this medication and finally got some sleep. It was so outstanding that even the tiniest dose (I took 5mg, so I cut the 10mg pills in half) got me to a place where I was sleeping restfully every single night without fail, without changing any other aspect of my life besides giving up alcohol. Same exact lifestyle, now with more sleep: new and improved Juniperesque.
Talk to your doctor.
posted by juniperesque at 9:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
When I had chronic "the body is willing, but the mind is not" insomnia, I ended up with a subclinical prescription of amitriptyline, which is commonly prescribed off-label for insomnia. However, it metabolizes in the liver, so you can't mix it with alcohol at all. It is an understatement to say that it changed my life; literally every aspect of my life improved when I went on this medication and finally got some sleep. It was so outstanding that even the tiniest dose (I took 5mg, so I cut the 10mg pills in half) got me to a place where I was sleeping restfully every single night without fail, without changing any other aspect of my life besides giving up alcohol. Same exact lifestyle, now with more sleep: new and improved Juniperesque.
Talk to your doctor.
posted by juniperesque at 9:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [5 favorites]
I watch ASMR videos on YouTube. There are thousands of them, so you can look around for a content creator, theme, or format you like. I find them very soothing, and there's enough content to be distracting.
posted by delight at 9:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by delight at 9:58 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to add my two cents as someone who has struggled with long-term bad sleep, and found doxylamine succinate to be a godsend. It's cheap and over-the-counter.
As someone mentioned, this affects different people differently. My experience has been that half a pill is enough to help me get to sleep and stay asleep. I experience no bad effects the next morning, except for a slightly longer groggy period when i first wake. I'm functional but not at my best for maybe 20 minutes.
Also, i haven't found it to be habit forming, or to have reduced effectiveness if taken long term. I've taken this nearly every night for several years now, combined with 3mg melatonin. Works every night, and when I skip a night, having forgotten to take it with me on a trip or something, it's not a huge deal, and I'm able to get to sleep without it.
Good luck with this, bad sleep is terrible.
posted by jessicapierce at 10:37 AM on April 2, 2017
As someone mentioned, this affects different people differently. My experience has been that half a pill is enough to help me get to sleep and stay asleep. I experience no bad effects the next morning, except for a slightly longer groggy period when i first wake. I'm functional but not at my best for maybe 20 minutes.
Also, i haven't found it to be habit forming, or to have reduced effectiveness if taken long term. I've taken this nearly every night for several years now, combined with 3mg melatonin. Works every night, and when I skip a night, having forgotten to take it with me on a trip or something, it's not a huge deal, and I'm able to get to sleep without it.
Good luck with this, bad sleep is terrible.
posted by jessicapierce at 10:37 AM on April 2, 2017
Try this stuff, it worked great for me and now I only use it if my schedule gets messed up. It helped me retrain my brain that bed = sleep , not excitedly think about things we can do together tomorrow!!
I imagine you are going to have a hard period of readjustment when you stop drinking for a week or two but if you can schedule a way to get through that (days off work, prescription sleep aids etc) it'll go away. I can't imagine drinking is good for the apnea.
posted by fshgrl at 11:02 AM on April 2, 2017
I imagine you are going to have a hard period of readjustment when you stop drinking for a week or two but if you can schedule a way to get through that (days off work, prescription sleep aids etc) it'll go away. I can't imagine drinking is good for the apnea.
posted by fshgrl at 11:02 AM on April 2, 2017
I have lifelong chronic insomnia problems that I have frequently had to treat with medication. In my experience, all the "safe" meds stop working after a while or have serious mood side effects that made them lo longer desirable.
I'm currently in what I would consider "remission" from my insomnia; I don't know if that's a term that's typically used with insomnia, but I get to sleep within 30 minutes of getting into bed most nights, and I don't have a truly bad sleep night more often than once every two or three months. I made a bunch of lifestyle changes simultaneously so I'm not sure if one of them is more responsible than the others, but for the sake of completeness, here they are:
* I switched to a much lower carbohydrate diet than I had previously been eating.
* I DRAMATICALLY increased the amount of exercise I had been getting.
* I started spending significant (as in greater than 30 minutes) periods of time outside every day.
* I began treating my lifelong ADHD with Adderall. That seems very unlikely to contribute to better sleep, since Adderall is amphetamine salts, but I know other people with ADHD who have reported the same thing.
* I got a new mattress.
When I fall off the eating or the exercise, I do find myself reaching for a glass of wine before bed to help me go to sleep, so I suspect those are the strongest contributors.
posted by KathrynT at 11:13 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm currently in what I would consider "remission" from my insomnia; I don't know if that's a term that's typically used with insomnia, but I get to sleep within 30 minutes of getting into bed most nights, and I don't have a truly bad sleep night more often than once every two or three months. I made a bunch of lifestyle changes simultaneously so I'm not sure if one of them is more responsible than the others, but for the sake of completeness, here they are:
* I switched to a much lower carbohydrate diet than I had previously been eating.
* I DRAMATICALLY increased the amount of exercise I had been getting.
* I started spending significant (as in greater than 30 minutes) periods of time outside every day.
* I began treating my lifelong ADHD with Adderall. That seems very unlikely to contribute to better sleep, since Adderall is amphetamine salts, but I know other people with ADHD who have reported the same thing.
* I got a new mattress.
When I fall off the eating or the exercise, I do find myself reaching for a glass of wine before bed to help me go to sleep, so I suspect those are the strongest contributors.
posted by KathrynT at 11:13 AM on April 2, 2017 [4 favorites]
Don't go cold turkey on the alcohol. Taper off. Drink one glass of wine before going to bed instead of the two to four that you had been.
You will still have some trouble going to sleep, and your dreams will be rather vivid as you undergo REM state rebound in response to your reduced alcohol intake, but after an adjustment period (perhaps as long as a week) things will be more normal.
You say you drank from half a bottle to an entire bottle of wine every night. This is sufficient alcohol for you to have developed a tolerance, and your irritability and sleeplessness when you don't drink are likely an expression of that tolerance (read about the tolerance here).
posted by the Real Dan at 11:24 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
You will still have some trouble going to sleep, and your dreams will be rather vivid as you undergo REM state rebound in response to your reduced alcohol intake, but after an adjustment period (perhaps as long as a week) things will be more normal.
You say you drank from half a bottle to an entire bottle of wine every night. This is sufficient alcohol for you to have developed a tolerance, and your irritability and sleeplessness when you don't drink are likely an expression of that tolerance (read about the tolerance here).
posted by the Real Dan at 11:24 AM on April 2, 2017 [2 favorites]
Can't speak to the sleep apnea or cutting out alcohol safely, both of which you should take seriously and be under medical supervision. But: nthing Trazodone, it's very effective for a lot of people, and is technically an antidepressant, not a sleep med. I've taken 100mg nightly for years and while it doesn't help me go to sleep, it helps me go back to sleep when I wake during the night. Can definitely tell when I don't take it.
Came here to say, though: Remeron (mirtazapine). I take it for depression, and it is very powerful in that regard, after a dozen or so other antidepressants did little or nothing. While it's still not enough to put me to sleep, I've learned that if I forget to take it at bedtime that I should NOT make up the dose in the morning because I will be uncomfortably drowsy and foggy for hours. In the research I did before taking the drug, I learned that for a lot of people, Remeron knocks them out cold. Be forewarned that it has the nasty side effect of putting on weight (for me, 30 pounds in a matter of months) because of the "omg sugar!!" side effect, but if you're simultaneously cutting out a nightly bottle of wine, perhaps the temporary substitution of a nightly donut wouldn't be that harmful.
I know you said no addictive sleeping pills, and I'm sure the prospect of transitioning from alcohol dependence to controlled-substance sleeping pill dependence isn't tempting, but honestly the only thing that works for me is Ambien. My insomnia is of the severe, chronic, lifelong variety, and I tried to self-treat for years - a dozen books on sleep hygiene and every OTC medication/herb under the sun did nothing at all. I've been on 10mg of Ambien nightly for about 7 years now, and I'm not exaggerating when I call it a godsend. It still works, I haven't increased my dose, and I don't abuse it. So that sort of thing is possible. Yes, I suppose I'm addicted, in the "don't sleep without it" sort of way, but I already didn't sleep without it before I started taking it, so.
To summarize: 1. Treat sleep apnea and alcohol dependence 2. Trazodone 3. Remeron 4. Ambien
posted by storminator7 at 11:30 AM on April 2, 2017
Came here to say, though: Remeron (mirtazapine). I take it for depression, and it is very powerful in that regard, after a dozen or so other antidepressants did little or nothing. While it's still not enough to put me to sleep, I've learned that if I forget to take it at bedtime that I should NOT make up the dose in the morning because I will be uncomfortably drowsy and foggy for hours. In the research I did before taking the drug, I learned that for a lot of people, Remeron knocks them out cold. Be forewarned that it has the nasty side effect of putting on weight (for me, 30 pounds in a matter of months) because of the "omg sugar!!" side effect, but if you're simultaneously cutting out a nightly bottle of wine, perhaps the temporary substitution of a nightly donut wouldn't be that harmful.
I know you said no addictive sleeping pills, and I'm sure the prospect of transitioning from alcohol dependence to controlled-substance sleeping pill dependence isn't tempting, but honestly the only thing that works for me is Ambien. My insomnia is of the severe, chronic, lifelong variety, and I tried to self-treat for years - a dozen books on sleep hygiene and every OTC medication/herb under the sun did nothing at all. I've been on 10mg of Ambien nightly for about 7 years now, and I'm not exaggerating when I call it a godsend. It still works, I haven't increased my dose, and I don't abuse it. So that sort of thing is possible. Yes, I suppose I'm addicted, in the "don't sleep without it" sort of way, but I already didn't sleep without it before I started taking it, so.
To summarize: 1. Treat sleep apnea and alcohol dependence 2. Trazodone 3. Remeron 4. Ambien
posted by storminator7 at 11:30 AM on April 2, 2017
Insomnia hitchhiked into my life with menopause. What worked best for me was walking and "special" brownies, which REALLY helped to reset my sleep cycle, but you said nothing illegal and I don't know where you live. So I would substitute Benadryl instead. I bought a cheap step counter to make sure I had enough excercise to sleep, and just kept increasing my daily goal until I hit the magic number. (I use a Misfit, but there's a built-in one on iPhones if you have one.)
posted by raisingsand at 1:20 PM on April 2, 2017
posted by raisingsand at 1:20 PM on April 2, 2017
Long-term Benadryl might not be safe. There are a lot of other things recommended/prescribed for insomnia that are not very safe -- there are nutters out there prescribing Seroquel for simple insomnia, a terrible idea, but the paranoias about addiction are so strong that some people will cheerfully end up worse off for trying to avoid it.
Might I suggest that this might be an issue for you? You are boozing away with no apparent enjoyment and almost certainly getting the poor quality sleep booze provides. You suffer considerably when you don't sleep. If a prescription sleeping pill is what it takes to improve your quality of life, what is wrong with a prescription sleeping pill? Look up "z-drugs," less addictive than benzodiazepines, generally very effective...
Despite its having been a default recommendation for ages, the evidence for "sleep hygiene" is pretty poor.
If permitted to sleep whenever you please, can you relatively easily nod off at 5am or some other inconvenient hour? Look up delayed sleep syndrome.
There are a lot of sleep disorders that do not respond easily to treatment. Sleep medicine is in its infancy and has not come up with anything new for me in the over quarter century I have had my life made odd and difficult by terrible sleep. I would try to see a psychopharmacologist if possible; they are up to date on drug interactions, what's safest for longer-term use, etc.
I took Imovane for almost my entire adult life, and for insurance reasons switched to a fairly whopping dose of Dalmane. The nice thing about the Dalmane is that it is so long-acting that I don't need it every night, which was never the case with the Imovane, well as that worked. Over the last couple of years I started having trouble staying asleep as well as going to sleep; I take Ativan if I wake in the night. Dreadful addictive bad-reputation benzos! Also absolutely the only way I am going to be able to approach normal functioning. There are not always underlying causes for sleep problems that are not simply: sleep problems.
I have never noticed any effect at all from any dosage of melatonin administered at any time, but if you do want to try it, definitely talk to someone who knows about its use -- the many sleep specialists I have seen over the years say the dosage (which is a "less is more" thing), the time of administration, and the time you are shooting to go to bed should all be carefully co-ordinated.
I like a sautéed onion on a piece of toast with hot milk and salt and pepper as a bedtime snack and find it soothing, but not effective on its own. When my daughter was very young and I was nursing med-free (which ended up with me in the ER pretty delirious from lack of sleep) one thing I found would put me to sleep were huge warm platters of comfort food. Not really recommended if you like your current pant size, though. The tl;dr here is really just: see a physician, one who knows what they are doing when it comes to sleep. Best of luck!
posted by kmennie at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
Might I suggest that this might be an issue for you? You are boozing away with no apparent enjoyment and almost certainly getting the poor quality sleep booze provides. You suffer considerably when you don't sleep. If a prescription sleeping pill is what it takes to improve your quality of life, what is wrong with a prescription sleeping pill? Look up "z-drugs," less addictive than benzodiazepines, generally very effective...
Despite its having been a default recommendation for ages, the evidence for "sleep hygiene" is pretty poor.
If permitted to sleep whenever you please, can you relatively easily nod off at 5am or some other inconvenient hour? Look up delayed sleep syndrome.
There are a lot of sleep disorders that do not respond easily to treatment. Sleep medicine is in its infancy and has not come up with anything new for me in the over quarter century I have had my life made odd and difficult by terrible sleep. I would try to see a psychopharmacologist if possible; they are up to date on drug interactions, what's safest for longer-term use, etc.
I took Imovane for almost my entire adult life, and for insurance reasons switched to a fairly whopping dose of Dalmane. The nice thing about the Dalmane is that it is so long-acting that I don't need it every night, which was never the case with the Imovane, well as that worked. Over the last couple of years I started having trouble staying asleep as well as going to sleep; I take Ativan if I wake in the night. Dreadful addictive bad-reputation benzos! Also absolutely the only way I am going to be able to approach normal functioning. There are not always underlying causes for sleep problems that are not simply: sleep problems.
I have never noticed any effect at all from any dosage of melatonin administered at any time, but if you do want to try it, definitely talk to someone who knows about its use -- the many sleep specialists I have seen over the years say the dosage (which is a "less is more" thing), the time of administration, and the time you are shooting to go to bed should all be carefully co-ordinated.
I like a sautéed onion on a piece of toast with hot milk and salt and pepper as a bedtime snack and find it soothing, but not effective on its own. When my daughter was very young and I was nursing med-free (which ended up with me in the ER pretty delirious from lack of sleep) one thing I found would put me to sleep were huge warm platters of comfort food. Not really recommended if you like your current pant size, though. The tl;dr here is really just: see a physician, one who knows what they are doing when it comes to sleep. Best of luck!
posted by kmennie at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
I will often drink valerian root or kava tea, put on a podcast that is mildly interesting (I'm on a true crime kick currently), and then also play a pretty but repetitive, relaxing phone game like I Love Hue, Solitaire: Decked Out, Picross Luna, or Flow Free.
And since it does meet your requirements and help tremendously: a safely and intelligently administered dose of red vein kratom is ridiculously effective as a sleep aid.
posted by moons in june at 3:50 PM on April 2, 2017
And since it does meet your requirements and help tremendously: a safely and intelligently administered dose of red vein kratom is ridiculously effective as a sleep aid.
posted by moons in june at 3:50 PM on April 2, 2017
What happens if you resign yourself to minimal sleep and get up and putter around? I find that a single day on no sleep isn't awful and I sleep like a baby the next night.
posted by pintapicasso at 7:35 AM on April 3, 2017
posted by pintapicasso at 7:35 AM on April 3, 2017
Our family's sleep-inducing before-bed herbal drink:
8 oz warm water
3 droppers-full (about 40-50 drops) Passionflower extract.
2 teaspoons honey.
Passionflower is reputed to be an anxiety-reducer and mild muscle relaxant. Honey has soporific qualities. The sweetness of honey also helps counter the odd leafy cut-grass taste of the passionflower extract. Works in about 30 minutes.
A second reliable option for me is a sleep self-hypnosis or guided meditation session. I put in my earbuds and navigate to a sleep hypnosis session on YouTube, then put the phone face-down on the nightstand, listen to the audio and drift away. My favorites are Michael Sealey's "Sleep and Confidence" self-hypnosis session, and The Honest Guys' "Guided Sleep Meditation Talkdown," which features ocean wave sounds. YouTube catalogues hundreds of self-hypnosis and guided meditation videos, so if neither of the above are to you liking, you can certainly surf around to find the voice style, cadence, background music, and sound quality that works for you.
posted by Ardea alba at 11:49 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
8 oz warm water
3 droppers-full (about 40-50 drops) Passionflower extract.
2 teaspoons honey.
Passionflower is reputed to be an anxiety-reducer and mild muscle relaxant. Honey has soporific qualities. The sweetness of honey also helps counter the odd leafy cut-grass taste of the passionflower extract. Works in about 30 minutes.
A second reliable option for me is a sleep self-hypnosis or guided meditation session. I put in my earbuds and navigate to a sleep hypnosis session on YouTube, then put the phone face-down on the nightstand, listen to the audio and drift away. My favorites are Michael Sealey's "Sleep and Confidence" self-hypnosis session, and The Honest Guys' "Guided Sleep Meditation Talkdown," which features ocean wave sounds. YouTube catalogues hundreds of self-hypnosis and guided meditation videos, so if neither of the above are to you liking, you can certainly surf around to find the voice style, cadence, background music, and sound quality that works for you.
posted by Ardea alba at 11:49 AM on April 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Too-Ticky at 2:53 AM on April 2, 2017 [3 favorites]