drum machines
January 13, 2006 9:46 AM Subscribe
SOUND QUESTION - What are best drum machines, analog preferred, for about one hundred or two hundred dollars new/used? Alesis? earlier versions of the Groovebox? What about great old vintage ones? I know nothing about this topic and would love some guidance. Glitchy sound or authentic drum sounding, preferably with no midi, just straight knobs and buttons with RCA out - thank you for your nerding!
Depends on what you can find, really... Check eBay for Roland. 808, 303...
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2006
I'm sure that the best one for you will really be determined by what kind of music you are interested in making. But I'd suggest the BeatBox site as a good starting point to find more information.
I have the cheesy 'Hammond Auto-Vari 64', that can usually be found on e-bay for under $100 (or right now for $64).
posted by sdinan at 10:07 AM on January 13, 2006
I have the cheesy 'Hammond Auto-Vari 64', that can usually be found on e-bay for under $100 (or right now for $64).
posted by sdinan at 10:07 AM on January 13, 2006
Response by poster: klangklangston - what do you like specifically about the Roland models?
sdinan - HOT SHIT THANK YOU FOR THE LINK. And Damn, that Hammond looks gorgeous, too, thank you. How does it sound?
posted by Peter H at 10:12 AM on January 13, 2006
sdinan - HOT SHIT THANK YOU FOR THE LINK. And Damn, that Hammond looks gorgeous, too, thank you. How does it sound?
posted by Peter H at 10:12 AM on January 13, 2006
klangklangston,
he's got a budget of $100-$200 and you're suggesting he look for an 808?
posted by subclub at 10:28 AM on January 13, 2006
he's got a budget of $100-$200 and you're suggesting he look for an 808?
posted by subclub at 10:28 AM on January 13, 2006
The newer Boss stuff includes all of the old Roland sounds, and they're not copied sounds, they're the real thing -- Roland makes Boss.
So if you want TR-808, 909, 505, etc sounds, don't buy the actual vintage machines unless you're interested in the pretty machinery instead of the actual sounds. Just get one of the newer Boss drum machines used for $100-200.
FWIW, I use a Boss DR-670 on a lot of my recordings, and it has most of the old school samples that you'd ever want. It can also sound very realistic, but only if you know what you're doing.
Of course, most people find computer-based drum programming via samples and loops to be much easier than drum machine programming. I've been using drum machines since the mid 80s, so it's familiar and I can do it quickly, but if you're just getting into it, you might be better off just using computer-based drum loop systems with good samples.
In my opinion, the Alesis stuff is crap, and the Boss stuff is Boss. If I had my druthers, I'd have a DR-770 instead of the 670. I used to have a DR-660, and I think I liked it better than the 670, too.
The only "vintage" drum machine that I would ever spend money on is a Roland R-8 "Human" drum machine, since it had features that you can't really find in newer machines -- it could make mistakes if you wanted it to, simply by telling it the percentage of error you wanted, and that made it sound very, very human. And it had lots of outputs for recording and you could, IIRC, change the effects like reverb, etc, for each sample individually. Truly a great machine. The Roland R-5 was a smaller version of it, and is also amazing.
posted by JekPorkins at 10:30 AM on January 13, 2006
So if you want TR-808, 909, 505, etc sounds, don't buy the actual vintage machines unless you're interested in the pretty machinery instead of the actual sounds. Just get one of the newer Boss drum machines used for $100-200.
FWIW, I use a Boss DR-670 on a lot of my recordings, and it has most of the old school samples that you'd ever want. It can also sound very realistic, but only if you know what you're doing.
Of course, most people find computer-based drum programming via samples and loops to be much easier than drum machine programming. I've been using drum machines since the mid 80s, so it's familiar and I can do it quickly, but if you're just getting into it, you might be better off just using computer-based drum loop systems with good samples.
In my opinion, the Alesis stuff is crap, and the Boss stuff is Boss. If I had my druthers, I'd have a DR-770 instead of the 670. I used to have a DR-660, and I think I liked it better than the 670, too.
The only "vintage" drum machine that I would ever spend money on is a Roland R-8 "Human" drum machine, since it had features that you can't really find in newer machines -- it could make mistakes if you wanted it to, simply by telling it the percentage of error you wanted, and that made it sound very, very human. And it had lots of outputs for recording and you could, IIRC, change the effects like reverb, etc, for each sample individually. Truly a great machine. The Roland R-5 was a smaller version of it, and is also amazing.
posted by JekPorkins at 10:30 AM on January 13, 2006
This site lets you try some different vintage ones out first. A lot of them are pretty old and the functionality is somewhat limited, but you can at least get an ear for what strikes you. And it gives you a good sense of how they progressed from the 70's to 80's.
Anyone remember this one?
posted by hellbient at 10:31 AM on January 13, 2006
Anyone remember this one?
posted by hellbient at 10:31 AM on January 13, 2006
The Korg ER-1 has is a real time tweakable analog modelling drum machine with an easy step sequencing interface. It also has two line ins that can be gated and effected by the modelled filters.
It does have MIDI, but it's not a requirement. The sounds you can get out of it range from steady 909/808 like sounds to twitched out freakiness thanks to the noise osc's and real-time tweakable delay effect. Hi-hats & claps are not modelled, but you can pitch them up/down all around.
I got mine when it first came out(2001'ish) for around $300. Should be able to pick them up on ebay for reasonably cheaper.
4(maybe 5) modelled oscs, 2 line ins, crash, hi-hat closed/open and a clap.
posted by mnology at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2006
It does have MIDI, but it's not a requirement. The sounds you can get out of it range from steady 909/808 like sounds to twitched out freakiness thanks to the noise osc's and real-time tweakable delay effect. Hi-hats & claps are not modelled, but you can pitch them up/down all around.
I got mine when it first came out(2001'ish) for around $300. Should be able to pick them up on ebay for reasonably cheaper.
4(maybe 5) modelled oscs, 2 line ins, crash, hi-hat closed/open and a clap.
posted by mnology at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2006
I only recently got rid of my Synsonics. I also had a Yamaha DD-5, and until recently, a Roland SPD-11. (Mind the popups on that site)
For your purpose, the Yamaha RX-15 might fit the bill (I just lent that and a CZ-101 to a friend's girlfriend). It's very easy, intuitive and very cheap. The sounds it makes are of course not 100% AWESOME but it is a get-job-done drum machine.
posted by kuperman at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2006
For your purpose, the Yamaha RX-15 might fit the bill (I just lent that and a CZ-101 to a friend's girlfriend). It's very easy, intuitive and very cheap. The sounds it makes are of course not 100% AWESOME but it is a get-job-done drum machine.
posted by kuperman at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2006
My friend and I have a borderline unhealthy obsession with the Drumulator. Be sure to check out the demo on that site. They go on eBay for about 100 to 200 bucks.
To be honest, I've never used one in real life, but I would really like to.
posted by cloeburner at 11:22 AM on January 13, 2006
To be honest, I've never used one in real life, but I would really like to.
posted by cloeburner at 11:22 AM on January 13, 2006
The newer Boss stuff includes all of the old Roland sounds, and they're not copied sounds, they're the real thing -- Roland makes Boss.
Keep in mind these are likely sampled 808/909 waveforms.* This is NOT the same as having the machines themselves, because you lose all the control that made those sounds awesome -- you've just got the waveform sampled at a couple points, which doesn't really describe the breadth of sound that came out of the original machines.
That said, analog for $100-200 is really pushing it (and klangklang: if you've got an 808 or 909 in that price range, I'll take TWO) -- I haven't been in the market for awhile, but I doubt that you'll get anywhere close to analog for that kind of money. I do have friends who would also recommend the Boss in that price range. The R8 mkii isn't a bad choice either, but that's probably outside your price range unless hardware has dropped significantly.
You WANT midi, btw. I don't know why you wouldn't want it. If you want to just circuit bend then just buy old shit casios at thrift stores. Otherwise you're going to want at least a clock out so you can sync your drum machine to something else. Sure, the old analog gear didn't have midi (although there are midi to pulse clock that work pretty well with those machines which you can use) but as others have said, if you think you're going to find those machines for $100-200 you're dreaming (or you got very very lucky).
Personally, in that price range, I have two favorite machines:
the Yamaha RY-30: (ebay: ~$60 -- some jerkoff is trying to sell it for $450, but that ain't going to happen. $60 is a STEAL btw, even if it's $100 after shipping. I paid $200 - 250 for mine in 98).
This was the first drum machine I bought, and still my favorite. Two individual outs so you can map out the kick and the snare and tweak them on your board, and a stereo out for your highs (less than the R8, but probably all you need). The best thing about this is 1) the step programming, which I like a lot on this machine, and 2) the pitch wheel lets you do filter sweeps/volume sweeps/pitch bends across a particular sound and a particular pattern in real time. It basically is an "insta-electro" machine. The patch editing is VERY deep as well. Great for live performance. The one BIG downside is that the stock bass kicks suck. I was never able to get a real big clean bass sound out of it. Additionally, it's next to impossible to find cards for (which you want, because they have extra waveforms). The midi implementation left a little to be desired too, if I recall correctly. Nonetheless, this was my main drum machine for 6 years. That brings me to:
the Kawai XD-5 (Ebay about $100) (you'll need something to trigger this with): this is a drum waveform machine that has unbelieveable depth. It's basically a synth with drum waveforms in it. It also stole the Roland 808 and 909 kick waveforms and renamed them (the infamous BOB kick), so it you'll have some access to some nice deep analog type sounds.
The Korg ER-1 is awesome for live PAs, if you're planning on gigging with it. The novation drumstation might also be an option if you don't mind triggering from something else and you want analog drum sounds.
The yamaha rx-15 is junk. barely editable patches, poor step editing. I bought one at goodwill for $30 and gave it away to a friend. alesis stuff is also largely junk.
that said, this advice kinda assumes you want this machine to write drum loops with and to play live with (not to sample and tweak or circuit bend). If you're a little clearer about why you want a drum machine and what you want it for, maybe we can be of more assistance. I honestly haven't touched a lot of my hardware gear in years, and although I miss it a lot, I like the flexibility and speed that comes with using a computer, although I miss the challenge of writing tracks with just a couple of pieces of gear (so much that I don't really make music anymore. just hoard hardware).
* afaik. unless boss is doing analog modeling for under a couple hundred bucks now, which I don't think is likely, but I haven't checked out either, so if I'm off base, my apologies).
posted by fishfucker at 11:56 AM on January 13, 2006
Keep in mind these are likely sampled 808/909 waveforms.* This is NOT the same as having the machines themselves, because you lose all the control that made those sounds awesome -- you've just got the waveform sampled at a couple points, which doesn't really describe the breadth of sound that came out of the original machines.
That said, analog for $100-200 is really pushing it (and klangklang: if you've got an 808 or 909 in that price range, I'll take TWO) -- I haven't been in the market for awhile, but I doubt that you'll get anywhere close to analog for that kind of money. I do have friends who would also recommend the Boss in that price range. The R8 mkii isn't a bad choice either, but that's probably outside your price range unless hardware has dropped significantly.
You WANT midi, btw. I don't know why you wouldn't want it. If you want to just circuit bend then just buy old shit casios at thrift stores. Otherwise you're going to want at least a clock out so you can sync your drum machine to something else. Sure, the old analog gear didn't have midi (although there are midi to pulse clock that work pretty well with those machines which you can use) but as others have said, if you think you're going to find those machines for $100-200 you're dreaming (or you got very very lucky).
Personally, in that price range, I have two favorite machines:
the Yamaha RY-30: (ebay: ~$60 -- some jerkoff is trying to sell it for $450, but that ain't going to happen. $60 is a STEAL btw, even if it's $100 after shipping. I paid $200 - 250 for mine in 98).
This was the first drum machine I bought, and still my favorite. Two individual outs so you can map out the kick and the snare and tweak them on your board, and a stereo out for your highs (less than the R8, but probably all you need). The best thing about this is 1) the step programming, which I like a lot on this machine, and 2) the pitch wheel lets you do filter sweeps/volume sweeps/pitch bends across a particular sound and a particular pattern in real time. It basically is an "insta-electro" machine. The patch editing is VERY deep as well. Great for live performance. The one BIG downside is that the stock bass kicks suck. I was never able to get a real big clean bass sound out of it. Additionally, it's next to impossible to find cards for (which you want, because they have extra waveforms). The midi implementation left a little to be desired too, if I recall correctly. Nonetheless, this was my main drum machine for 6 years. That brings me to:
the Kawai XD-5 (Ebay about $100) (you'll need something to trigger this with): this is a drum waveform machine that has unbelieveable depth. It's basically a synth with drum waveforms in it. It also stole the Roland 808 and 909 kick waveforms and renamed them (the infamous BOB kick), so it you'll have some access to some nice deep analog type sounds.
The Korg ER-1 is awesome for live PAs, if you're planning on gigging with it. The novation drumstation might also be an option if you don't mind triggering from something else and you want analog drum sounds.
The yamaha rx-15 is junk. barely editable patches, poor step editing. I bought one at goodwill for $30 and gave it away to a friend. alesis stuff is also largely junk.
that said, this advice kinda assumes you want this machine to write drum loops with and to play live with (not to sample and tweak or circuit bend). If you're a little clearer about why you want a drum machine and what you want it for, maybe we can be of more assistance. I honestly haven't touched a lot of my hardware gear in years, and although I miss it a lot, I like the flexibility and speed that comes with using a computer, although I miss the challenge of writing tracks with just a couple of pieces of gear (so much that I don't really make music anymore. just hoard hardware).
* afaik. unless boss is doing analog modeling for under a couple hundred bucks now, which I don't think is likely, but I haven't checked out either, so if I'm off base, my apologies).
posted by fishfucker at 11:56 AM on January 13, 2006
On teh Interweb you can find pretty decent (and free) sample sets for classic drum machines like the TR-808 (used in classic electro, early hip-hop, freestyle, and Miami bass), TR-909 (used in '90s house) and the Linn Drum (Prince's fave, circa 1999).
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:36 PM on January 13, 2006
posted by Artifice_Eternity at 12:36 PM on January 13, 2006
Response by poster: I can't tell you how much I am loving this entire thread.
posted by Peter H at 12:50 PM on January 13, 2006
posted by Peter H at 12:50 PM on January 13, 2006
Response by poster: It seems I'm split on aesthetics versus sound. I like the sound of something like the Yamaha but damn if I'm still not totally married to the first one mentioned, the Hammond. And damn the Drumulator! The fact that it's an E-mu is ridiculously funny. It looks like a Speak and Spell. I love it.
Um - shit, how much for all the models mentioned on this page you think?
posted by Peter H at 12:55 PM on January 13, 2006
Um - shit, how much for all the models mentioned on this page you think?
posted by Peter H at 12:55 PM on January 13, 2006
I was going to suggest an R-5 but he'd said no Midi. However, everyone else has jumped on the vintage drum machine bandwagon here...so...
Yeah - the R-8 and R-5s were outstanding drum machines. For $100-200 though, you can get Fruity Loops and have more drum machine than you ever thought you needed. The latest versions are mind-blowing in terms of what can be done with them, and they also support VST instruments if you want to import things.
I will also second the Boss suggestions, although I don't agree that Alesis stuff was crap. Many a dance demo was done with an SR-16, and I have a special place in my heart for those things.
posted by TeamBilly at 1:47 PM on January 13, 2006
Yeah - the R-8 and R-5s were outstanding drum machines. For $100-200 though, you can get Fruity Loops and have more drum machine than you ever thought you needed. The latest versions are mind-blowing in terms of what can be done with them, and they also support VST instruments if you want to import things.
I will also second the Boss suggestions, although I don't agree that Alesis stuff was crap. Many a dance demo was done with an SR-16, and I have a special place in my heart for those things.
posted by TeamBilly at 1:47 PM on January 13, 2006
Groovebox is digital, friend. Analog drum machines are expensive, vintage gear is very popular. The Oberheim DX is pretty famous, but older analog drum machines really don't have all the neat features as modern analog drum machines, which is what it sounds like you may be in to.
Take about 5 hours one day and browse Vintage Synth. They have all sorts of analog drum machines and samples.
The Boss 505 is pretty neat, as is the sampler Yamaha SU-700.
If its your first drum machine, you may want to just get a cheap boss 202 to fuck around with, you can find them for $50.
For your analog wishlist, check out doepfer.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 2:09 PM on January 13, 2006
Take about 5 hours one day and browse Vintage Synth. They have all sorts of analog drum machines and samples.
The Boss 505 is pretty neat, as is the sampler Yamaha SU-700.
If its your first drum machine, you may want to just get a cheap boss 202 to fuck around with, you can find them for $50.
For your analog wishlist, check out doepfer.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 2:09 PM on January 13, 2006
Response by poster: Hey thanks, Jesse! - I think I meant analog by "analog sounding" and is a physical box with buttons and not something that's a rackmount with a digital display or is plug-in/software. I realize a lot of stuff that's analog seeming now is emulated; Poor choice of words though.
Since you brought it back up, has anyone played with the groovebox? Is it a keyboard with rhythm tracks or what?
posted by Peter H at 2:20 PM on January 13, 2006
Since you brought it back up, has anyone played with the groovebox? Is it a keyboard with rhythm tracks or what?
posted by Peter H at 2:20 PM on January 13, 2006
Last time I saw Sonic Youth they had a Roland SP808 on stage with them.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 2:27 PM on January 13, 2006
posted by The Jesse Helms at 2:27 PM on January 13, 2006
*now feels awful for suggesting the rx-15*
posted by kuperman at 12:44 PM PST on January 13 [!]
aw, dude, i'm sorry. I didn't mean to be so harsh. It's just that in the poster's price range, that drum machine is more of a toy. It'd be cool for circuit bending, but i don't see it as a "real" drum machine. I didn't mean to be so much of a snob. For what it's worth, the friend i gave it to did come up with some pretty cool beats. I just don't think it's in the caliber of some of the other drum machines that may be in that price range, and so if the poster's just going to buy one, I wouldn't recommend it.
Since you brought it back up, has anyone played with the groovebox?
yes. It was cool for it's time, but I wouldn't pay more than $100 for one now. The groovebox is more of an all in one sequencer. It has x0x style step sequencing (like the 808s and 909s of yesteryear), but is laid out more like a keyboard than a drum machine. That said, if you want to have an all-in-one-box, you can consider that, and the RM1x, which might be around the same price range now (i have an RM1x, and i don't like the way some of the midi stuff works, but it's pretty cool).
what it really comes down to is what you want to do with it. we can get you some better answers if you have an idea of what kind of stuff you want to do.
posted by fishfucker at 5:47 PM on January 13, 2006
yamaha rm1x, that is.
posted by fishfucker at 5:48 PM on January 13, 2006
posted by fishfucker at 5:48 PM on January 13, 2006
Sorry you guys, you're right (once I bothered to look up what things actually cost anymore). I have seen 808s at pawn shops for about $250 though.
posted by klangklangston at 5:56 PM on January 13, 2006
posted by klangklangston at 5:56 PM on January 13, 2006
I didnt' read everything here, but there is no way you'll get a good analog drum machine for under $200. And real analog DOES sound much better than sampled. Something about that circuitry...
I'd go for an electribe if I were you. Good analog emulation, inexpensive, and easy to use.
posted by Espoo2 at 9:56 PM on January 13, 2006
I'd go for an electribe if I were you. Good analog emulation, inexpensive, and easy to use.
posted by Espoo2 at 9:56 PM on January 13, 2006
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posted by Peter H at 9:47 AM on January 13, 2006