How to install a shower when your strata/HOA bans it?
March 31, 2017 9:46 AM Subscribe
Are there any creative opportunities for convincing my strata and their plumbers that a shower could be added to a washroom?
My 1970s building recently passed a bylaw to keep people from putting showers in their half bathrooms. The building has seen a lot of new buyers and renovations. The building plumbers say that the stack was on the very minimum side of the code when it was put in. With the change to housing prices now, there are a lot more people living in the units than when they first thought it would be 1 or 2 empty nesters.
The concern is that the stack is 2" less than the current standard size. That all makes sense to me.
But I'm wondering if there might be a very eco-friendly solution that would allow for installation of a shower. My family is getting bigger and it's starting to be a pain to have everyone traipsing through the master just to have a shower. Also, it would be nice to have somewhere near the front door to wash things off.
So I started thinking about this problem. I wondered if there might be some innovative solutions that significantly reduce the amount of water used by the toilet or shower, so that it would be possible to address the building concerns.
It would have to be something that looks good -- it can't look like a camper van -- and it can't be weird, as I want to manage resale value. But the upside for my family would be huge if there was some way to manage the concern about the water.
I'm guessing the problem is that there's no way to reduce the amount of water used by a shower to match that of a toilet and to then reduce the amount used by the shower. I'm guessing that even recycling the grey water from a shower would overfill the toilet tank. But I wondered if there could be some sort of way around this. Maybe there are green technologies that get water usage down. The upside would be huge and then I could make a case to the council.
(I should note that none of the master bath, dishwasher/kitchen, nor the washing machine are near enough to this half washroom, so no options to use those stacks. And I am aware that a change to bylaws needs to go to AGM and so on.)
My 1970s building recently passed a bylaw to keep people from putting showers in their half bathrooms. The building has seen a lot of new buyers and renovations. The building plumbers say that the stack was on the very minimum side of the code when it was put in. With the change to housing prices now, there are a lot more people living in the units than when they first thought it would be 1 or 2 empty nesters.
The concern is that the stack is 2" less than the current standard size. That all makes sense to me.
But I'm wondering if there might be a very eco-friendly solution that would allow for installation of a shower. My family is getting bigger and it's starting to be a pain to have everyone traipsing through the master just to have a shower. Also, it would be nice to have somewhere near the front door to wash things off.
So I started thinking about this problem. I wondered if there might be some innovative solutions that significantly reduce the amount of water used by the toilet or shower, so that it would be possible to address the building concerns.
It would have to be something that looks good -- it can't look like a camper van -- and it can't be weird, as I want to manage resale value. But the upside for my family would be huge if there was some way to manage the concern about the water.
I'm guessing the problem is that there's no way to reduce the amount of water used by a shower to match that of a toilet and to then reduce the amount used by the shower. I'm guessing that even recycling the grey water from a shower would overfill the toilet tank. But I wondered if there could be some sort of way around this. Maybe there are green technologies that get water usage down. The upside would be huge and then I could make a case to the council.
(I should note that none of the master bath, dishwasher/kitchen, nor the washing machine are near enough to this half washroom, so no options to use those stacks. And I am aware that a change to bylaws needs to go to AGM and so on.)
Response by poster: I would need to reduce the overall water going down the stack from BOTH toilet and toilet so that it was no worse than a toilet flushing. I thought maybe there was some sort of way to create a closed loop system (for shower) or something.
posted by shockpoppet at 11:55 AM on March 31, 2017
posted by shockpoppet at 11:55 AM on March 31, 2017
I wonder if this would be allowed: http://www.ipscorp.com/pdf/studor/Spec-MiniVent.pdf
posted by tman99 at 11:56 AM on March 31, 2017
posted by tman99 at 11:56 AM on March 31, 2017
The only commercially available closed loop showers I’ve seen are outrageously expensive, but they do exist. How much are you willing to spend on this?
posted by pharm at 12:32 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by pharm at 12:32 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
If so, you can replace a flush toilet with a compost toilet. Just cap the flush toilet access point, and you can replace the flush toilet if you ever want to sell.
posted by aniola at 1:03 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by aniola at 1:03 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Do the bylaws specify a maximum shower flow rate? Today, all shower heads are designed (sometimes with a removable flow-limiter) to limit flow to 2.5 gallons per minute (GPM).
According to HUD, "Older showerheads deliver as much as 5 to 10 gallons per minute".
Is it possible that there are units that still have 1970s shower heads, using 2-4 times the water of a single newer shower?
The problem has to come down to a flow rate. It's not hard to find 1.25 GPM shower heads. Could you focus on what is the effectively allowed flow rate for your unit? The restriction on number of showers seems very indirect, when the real concern is the amount of gallons per minute being drained.
posted by reeddavid at 2:17 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
According to HUD, "Older showerheads deliver as much as 5 to 10 gallons per minute".
Is it possible that there are units that still have 1970s shower heads, using 2-4 times the water of a single newer shower?
The problem has to come down to a flow rate. It's not hard to find 1.25 GPM shower heads. Could you focus on what is the effectively allowed flow rate for your unit? The restriction on number of showers seems very indirect, when the real concern is the amount of gallons per minute being drained.
posted by reeddavid at 2:17 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: This washroom (powder room) doesn't have a shower right now. I want to think of a way to get one approved. There are showers in the main baths in this building, sometimes even a bath and a separate shower, but they just passed a bylaw to ban them in powder rooms. They say the plumber says the stack can't handle it.
I don't know what an air admittance valve is for.
I might be able to use a composting toilet, but I think it would scare off buyers if I wanted to sell. And I'd also have to remove the shower.
I was hoping there is some very ecofriendly way to design the bathroom so that it sends no more water to the stack when I add a shower than I use now with the old toilet and no shower.
posted by shockpoppet at 2:31 PM on March 31, 2017
I don't know what an air admittance valve is for.
I might be able to use a composting toilet, but I think it would scare off buyers if I wanted to sell. And I'd also have to remove the shower.
I was hoping there is some very ecofriendly way to design the bathroom so that it sends no more water to the stack when I add a shower than I use now with the old toilet and no shower.
posted by shockpoppet at 2:31 PM on March 31, 2017
Recently I stumbled across Showerloop and I want it just because imagine having hot showers as long as you want while being MORE ecofriendly than a normal shower! Downside: you'd probably have to find something like it but more commercial instead of DIY, and pharm suggest that's expensive.
posted by foxfirefey at 3:00 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by foxfirefey at 3:00 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Air admittance valves solve venting problems. Venting is rarely the problem when your situation occurs; it is the waste water volume that is the problem.
I'd propose setting up an automatic water interlock system such that only one of the showers can be used at any particular time. That way there is no way for you to add additional flow to the waste water system. Functionally that would be no different that what you have now but you avoid the traffic in your master suite. While I've only seen systems for lawn sprinklers and fire sprinklers I don't see any reason a plumber couldn't adapt them to domestic water supplies.
You might try to sweeten the deal by offering to replace your toilets with lower flow models.
Be aware however that this measure may have nothing to do with sewers and everything to do with density with sewers being the excuse to retard density.
posted by Mitheral at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'd propose setting up an automatic water interlock system such that only one of the showers can be used at any particular time. That way there is no way for you to add additional flow to the waste water system. Functionally that would be no different that what you have now but you avoid the traffic in your master suite. While I've only seen systems for lawn sprinklers and fire sprinklers I don't see any reason a plumber couldn't adapt them to domestic water supplies.
You might try to sweeten the deal by offering to replace your toilets with lower flow models.
Be aware however that this measure may have nothing to do with sewers and everything to do with density with sewers being the excuse to retard density.
posted by Mitheral at 7:06 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I would need to reduce the overall water going down the stack from BOTH toilet and toilet so that it was no worse than a toilet flushing. I thought maybe there was some sort of way to create a closed loop system (for shower) or something.
I was hoping there is some very ecofriendly way to design the bathroom so that it sends no more water to the stack when I add a shower than I use now with the old toilet and no shower.
Maybe I'm not following you, but...
I think you would need to know what volume of water the toilet uses in one flush, and how long it takes to flush. Older toilets can take up to 6 gallons per flush, but if you install a low-flush you could possibly cut the amount of water the toilet uses down to as low as 1.5 gallons.
I just flushed my toilet, and it took about 10 Mississippis to flush, so 10-12 seconds to flush a 2.5 gallon tank means that there was a flow rate of ~15 gpm.
The duration of the flush times whatever your current tank uses is your flow rate. Right?
Flow Rate
Current national energy policy act (EPAct) standards mandate that all showerheads manufactured in the U.S. have a maximum flow rate of 2.5 gpm (9.5 lpm). Showerheads are also available at flow rates of 0.75 gpm (2.8 lpm), 1 gpm (3.8 lpm), 1.5 gpm (5.7 lpm), 1.75 gpm (6.6 lpm), and 2 gpm (7.6 lpm), although they may be harder to find at flow rates below 2.5 gpm (9.5 lpm). Before 1980, many showerheads exceeded 5 gpm (18.9 lpm).
It would seem to me that even at a flow rate of 2 gpm, your flow rate for the shower would be lower than what the flush from the toilet uses, assuming you don't have a modern low-flush toilet installed.
Low-flush toilets use 4.8 litres (1.3 US gal; 1.1 imp gal) or less per flush, as opposed to 6 litres (1.6 US gal; 1.3 imp gal) or more.
Now, you shouldn't be flushing the toilet at the same time the shower is running, but if you have a shower dispensing 1 gpm, and a low-flow toilet using 1.3, (1.3 x 10 sec = 7.8gmp) would that exceed what you are using with your current toilet?
This pdf has a table with the stack capacity relating pipe size to gpm.
Surely your HOA isn't concerned about the total amount of water being used in a 24 hour period?
If I'm not even getting this, could someone explain to me what I've missed (and if my math is wrong)?
posted by BlueHorse at 7:43 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was hoping there is some very ecofriendly way to design the bathroom so that it sends no more water to the stack when I add a shower than I use now with the old toilet and no shower.
Maybe I'm not following you, but...
I think you would need to know what volume of water the toilet uses in one flush, and how long it takes to flush. Older toilets can take up to 6 gallons per flush, but if you install a low-flush you could possibly cut the amount of water the toilet uses down to as low as 1.5 gallons.
I just flushed my toilet, and it took about 10 Mississippis to flush, so 10-12 seconds to flush a 2.5 gallon tank means that there was a flow rate of ~15 gpm.
The duration of the flush times whatever your current tank uses is your flow rate. Right?
Flow Rate
Current national energy policy act (EPAct) standards mandate that all showerheads manufactured in the U.S. have a maximum flow rate of 2.5 gpm (9.5 lpm). Showerheads are also available at flow rates of 0.75 gpm (2.8 lpm), 1 gpm (3.8 lpm), 1.5 gpm (5.7 lpm), 1.75 gpm (6.6 lpm), and 2 gpm (7.6 lpm), although they may be harder to find at flow rates below 2.5 gpm (9.5 lpm). Before 1980, many showerheads exceeded 5 gpm (18.9 lpm).
It would seem to me that even at a flow rate of 2 gpm, your flow rate for the shower would be lower than what the flush from the toilet uses, assuming you don't have a modern low-flush toilet installed.
Low-flush toilets use 4.8 litres (1.3 US gal; 1.1 imp gal) or less per flush, as opposed to 6 litres (1.6 US gal; 1.3 imp gal) or more.
Now, you shouldn't be flushing the toilet at the same time the shower is running, but if you have a shower dispensing 1 gpm, and a low-flow toilet using 1.3, (1.3 x 10 sec = 7.8gmp) would that exceed what you are using with your current toilet?
This pdf has a table with the stack capacity relating pipe size to gpm.
Surely your HOA isn't concerned about the total amount of water being used in a 24 hour period?
If I'm not even getting this, could someone explain to me what I've missed (and if my math is wrong)?
posted by BlueHorse at 7:43 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I'd propose setting up an automatic water interlock system such that only one of the showers can be used at any particular time. That way there is no way for you to add additional flow to the waste water system.
I wonder if that could be set up for the shower-toilet stack. You see, the shower and toilet (or the shower and sink?) would have to share a stack. This is not the same stack as for the main bathroom. And they say the half bathroom stack is not set up to handle more water than the toilets send out as waste water now. So I'd have to find a way to keep the waste water below that of the toilet. I imagine they are concerned about what's going on in a short period of time, as opposed to how often the toilet is flushed every day.
I think the problem with the shower is that, at 1 gpm (4L) for a 10 minute shower, that's 40L. So that's almost 7x the volume of the older toilets.
ShowerLoop looks like it uses 10L of water per shower. Given that people don't shower as often as they flush the toilet, it seems like a good option. But it looks like it's not commercialized yet. Hmmm. Maybe I need to be patient.
posted by shockpoppet at 10:14 PM on March 31, 2017
I wonder if that could be set up for the shower-toilet stack. You see, the shower and toilet (or the shower and sink?) would have to share a stack. This is not the same stack as for the main bathroom. And they say the half bathroom stack is not set up to handle more water than the toilets send out as waste water now. So I'd have to find a way to keep the waste water below that of the toilet. I imagine they are concerned about what's going on in a short period of time, as opposed to how often the toilet is flushed every day.
I think the problem with the shower is that, at 1 gpm (4L) for a 10 minute shower, that's 40L. So that's almost 7x the volume of the older toilets.
ShowerLoop looks like it uses 10L of water per shower. Given that people don't shower as often as they flush the toilet, it seems like a good option. But it looks like it's not commercialized yet. Hmmm. Maybe I need to be patient.
posted by shockpoppet at 10:14 PM on March 31, 2017
Keep in mind that stack size is often mandated by the number of fixtures attached, ie how many drains, This works on the theory; How much water can go down at any one time if all fixtures were to be used? So if you have a half bath, assuming toilet and sink, that's two fixtures. You can't add a third no matter how little water is used because a third drain increases the potential for 1/3 more water even if you reduce the output from the other two fixtures.
You could try to combine the toilet and sink into one fixture like so, then you use the old sink drain as your new shower drain. Voila no extra load on the stack. Plus no flow restrictor needed* on the shower as the sink probably didn't have one.
* you could use one to save water of course
posted by Zedcaster at 10:56 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
You could try to combine the toilet and sink into one fixture like so, then you use the old sink drain as your new shower drain. Voila no extra load on the stack. Plus no flow restrictor needed* on the shower as the sink probably didn't have one.
* you could use one to save water of course
posted by Zedcaster at 10:56 PM on March 31, 2017 [1 favorite]
Just to give some idea, the only commercial entity with prices I’m aware of is this bunch. I did find another company, but they don’t quote prices.
I’ll ask on a green building forum I’m a member of - they might have some ideas.
posted by pharm at 3:39 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I’ll ask on a green building forum I’m a member of - they might have some ideas.
posted by pharm at 3:39 AM on April 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
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posted by cgg at 11:19 AM on March 31, 2017