15% gratuity on a raft trip fee
March 27, 2017 3:32 PM   Subscribe

I've signed up for a raft trip through a beautiful,wild canyon, paid my deposit and about to pay the final balance. Reading the trip prep information it says I should be prepared to pay a 'customary' fee of 15%-20% of the trip fee to the guide. I've never encountered this before from an outfitter or business and wondering how to proceed.

My partner and I are signed up for a 5-day rafting trip to a wilderness area after quite a bit of jockeying around to get on board. After paying the deposit, I received the trip planning information, which I filed until getting down to paying the balance due. The trip's in about a month and costs $1k for 5 days.
The question for me is that the outfitter did not disclose the sizable gratuity beforehand. Between my partner and myself, we're paying an additional 300-400 that was nowhere in the pre-trip signup documentation.
While I'm willing to pay tips in coffee shops and restaurants, this is quite a bit more than we had planned on. I've never paid a 'customary fee' of this type to any outfitter anywhere for anything. I've never had a business ask for a gratuity to pay their employees of this scale.
On the other hand, this outfitter is a high quality organization. The trip is sponsored by a nonprofit I donate to and highly approve of. So I'm a bit stuck. Help me out here, Mefites.
Is a gratuity for a wilderness trip customary?
My mental diagram at this point looks something like: go, suck it up, pay the fee, have a great trip, wonder why this company is pushing off their fees on me in this way, or, blow the trip off, possibly lose 10% deposit but not have to deal with this fee which I consider poor business practice, or go, don't pay the fee and wonder if there would be blowback for not paying up. That's not an option so either I pay the fee and go or don't pay it and don't go.
I'm basically having trouble justifying paying employees a 'customary gratuity' which doesn't sound optional. A tip in a coffee shop is optional, a guide who is responsible for a large part of your well-being in a wild environment not so much.
posted by diode to Sports, Hobbies, & Recreation (26 answers total) 1 user marked this as a favorite
 
If you don't go, make sure you tell them why.
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:34 PM on March 27, 2017 [9 favorites]


Hm, I would tip anyway on something like this for sure, but asking for 20% seems very demanding to me. I mean I'd probably give the guy a hundred bucks a person or something like that, and feel good about it. I think asking for $200/person seems like more than a reasonable tip and making it mandatory definitely doesn't feel right.

That said, if you would have signed up for it even knowing it was going to cost 15% more, then by all means go, don't cut off your nose to spite your face.

I'd call them before deciding, anyway, and tell them the problem.
posted by fingersandtoes at 3:42 PM on March 27, 2017 [3 favorites]


As a former whitewater guide I'd push back. Tipping sucks, it means the employer is under-paying, it creates weird power dynamics, and we should do our best to stamp it out.

I mean, I tip 20% at restaurants, and as a guide I was super grateful when I got a tip (usually went to shared beer), but I'd take this up with the non-profit you donate to, tell them the outfitter's behavior reflects badly on the non-profit, and tell the outfitter you're very disappointed.

And if you choose to go, tip the guide, but tell them you'd much rather they were working for a more up-and-up organization. I don't know how it is on the Grand Canyon, but where I worked guides could be pretty mobile between companies, and though we all liked beer money, we were primarily working because we loved the river and loved the experience and loved having happy engaged crews.
posted by straw at 3:44 PM on March 27, 2017 [24 favorites]


I think tipping the guides / staff for services like guided hikes, boat trips, paragliding, etc., is quite customary. I've actually seen it specifically with respect to rafting, on multiple occasions - I'm a bit surprised straw thinks it indicates a shoddy company.

I do, however, think this company is being too pushy about it and setting the expected rate much too high. In my experience it's more like every person (or couple) pitches in what they think is appropriate and the guide is always grateful regardless of the amount - and the amount is always well under $150 per person.

I certainly wouldn't cancel over this, I would just contribute an amount that you feel is reasonable.
posted by Joey Buttafoucault at 4:05 PM on March 27, 2017 [11 favorites]


I agree that tipping practices and expectations and assumptions and lack of prior disclosure are sucky bugs of our current system. That being said, I haven't been on any sort of multi-day guided tour in recent years where tips weren't expected; $20-$25/day/person in cash over and above list price matches what my experiences have been in terms of tips for guided rafting and camping trips, mostly in California and the Northeast.
posted by Pandora Kouti at 4:10 PM on March 27, 2017 [4 favorites]


Tipping culture is inscrutable and maddening; however, tipping tour guides is totally customary...yet not so universal that everyone does it or knows how much to tip. Despite the inelegant language it's not weird that your outfitter provided some tip guidance.

If you're with the same guide(s) for the entire trip, tipping is done at the end so you don't have to worry about any awkwardness. Perhaps plan on a base tip of $X/day and bring a bit more cash depending on how pleased you are by the trip.

Maybe sit down, do the math and figure out how much you think your guide is being paid per hour for the round-the-clock responsibility of entertaining, educating and protecting you-- maybe even saving your life.
posted by acidic at 4:27 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


Is a gratuity for a wilderness trip customary?

I've used mountain, rafting, and canyon guides and have always tipped, but certainly not 15% of the total cost of the trip. I think I slipped each guide a $20 bill when it was over.
posted by bondcliff at 4:35 PM on March 27, 2017


I have never been on a week long raft trip, but I would not have expected a 15% to 20% tip. I would have brought along $50 for a single guide, or, if I felt particularly generous, $100.

If I received notification that 15%-20% was expected without prior notification, I would cancel the trip and expect my entire deposit to be returned. If my deposit were not returned, I'd make a drink about it and probably involved my credit card company.
posted by saeculorum at 4:44 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


Yeah, $400 isn't a 'tip', it's a 'wage'. It sounds like this organisation don't pay their employees and expect you to do it for them. I'd cancel. So far as reconsidering because they are in charge of saving your life, surely that money is supposed to come out of the original booking fee and it's been factored in and paid for already? If someone used that argument to guilt me into paying more, I'd be so disgusted I'd complain about it on a review site.
posted by Jubey at 4:57 PM on March 27, 2017 [19 favorites]


Best answer: I'd cancel and send them an email.
Dear Outfitter,

This is sketchy as fuck. As an awesome organisation you should be committed to paying local people fair wages, not keeping them off your books and making me pay them in person. I get this would mean you have to build this into your upfront prices. I'd actually prefer that, because then I'd know about those costs up front, instead of after I've paid what I thought would be the entire cost for the trip.

Get your shit together.

Respectfully
diode
posted by obiwanwasabi at 4:59 PM on March 27, 2017 [27 favorites]


I just wanted to mention that I also find tipping culture really frustrating, but I'm not quite clear on your math...if the total cost of the trip for you and your partner together is $1k, then 15-20% would be $150 to $200, which for two people for five days doesn't seem super out of line to me. It doesn't make sense that if the cost of the trip is $1000/two people that you'd need to double the total gratuity (your $300-$400 number).

My guess is that you'll have an awesome time and by the end of the trip feel good part parting with some of your hard-earned cash for an awesome guide who went to a lot of his or her effort to make sure you were safe and enjoyed yourself. If that's not the case, then by all means don't tip or reduce your tip to what feels right. I generally err on the side of tipping because I worked in a tipped profession once and I remember how much that stuff meant to me. However, I agree with your frustration about the "expected gratuity" and I don't blame you for feeling like you are in a difficult position.
posted by handful of rain at 5:16 PM on March 27, 2017 [4 favorites]


Just to throw out a contrary thought: Is this in the United States? I can't speak to whitewater rafting tipping in the US, but I wouldn't blink an eye if this was in materials for a tour in certain other parts of the world. Particularly if this is an excursion in a part of the world where you'd probably pay in cash and where most tourists are international and thus have to change money, telling you about tipping may be a function of "make sure you have enough local currency if you want to tip for service you are happy with" more than "tipping is basically mandatory." I agree that 15-20% seems a bit high, but even this US-based whitewater rafting places say 5-10% is appropriate for day trips and higher is appropriate for multi-day. And for non-US guided trips, my personal experience bears out an approximately 10% tip: You say this costs $1000, and for multi-day guides in parts of Africa and Asia I would say that 10%, or $10/person/day (for a total of $100 for two people for five days) feels fine -- especially for a guide for a multi-day activity where he or she has to both keep you entertained and keep you safe.
posted by alligatorpear at 6:25 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


Oh, and remember that, for a multi-day trip, you probably have more than one person guiding/helping out, so it's not like just one person is getting all of that tip, and on a multi-day trips, your guide (or guide team) is on duty 24 hours a day. A $10-$20 tip for multiple people taking care of me for 24 hours doesn't seem outrageous -- that's tip for a couple of meals out or a couple of hair cuts, which take far less time.

Not to say you shouldn't cancel if this is an unexpected expense you don't want to pay, but just to say that I think it's not necessarily as sketchy as everyone else seems to think.
posted by alligatorpear at 6:33 PM on March 27, 2017


This organisation has put you in a very difficult position, as far as I see it. The guides have a duty of care to look after you and keep you safe, and you would hope they're being paid well to do this, given (by the company) that there's probably an element of danger to the whole thing.

Now that they're basically stating that you are being strong armed to give extra money to compensate the guides for what they should be doing anyway (looking after you, keeping you safe etc). No one in their right mind would want to flat out refuse to give this 'tip' to someone who has their life in their hands and risk pissing them off in case there is a situation where you really need their help.

In a just world, a tip would be exactly that, unexpected appreciation in the form of cash for service given above and beyond the norm, to people who are already paid a fair wage for the work they do and are not depending on it.

The way I see it, you have two option. Pay and go and raise any objections after if at all, or cancel and complain. There is no way I would go and not pay.

The issue here is not that the guides need this money - I bet they do. It's that this isn't factored into the initial cost so it's included in the package upfront, meaning the guides are paid well regardless, even if it means the trip from the outset is more expensive. At least it's not a bait and switch.
posted by Jubey at 7:24 PM on March 27, 2017


Cancel this trip. Extra costs upon extra costs tells me they are disorganized. I would not trust them with my life on a trip of this type.

If you go, inspect the gear every day.
posted by jbenben at 7:28 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


Response by poster: Just to clarify, it's $1k per person, so $150-$200 is the gratuity. I get that crabapple.whitewater.com thinks I should tip guides, but then a lot of people think I should give them money.
I've done most of my outdoors trips either as a trip leader (not the guide) or with friends, so I've not much experience with paid trips where I'm the client. I'm sort of down with obiwanwasabi's comment, as in WTF? 4 people in a raft paying $150, that's $600. Seems to me that's more like wages than a gratuity.
I could certainly see giving a gift but to me if it's not optional it's not a gift. So, it seems like cancellation is in my future here. I may very well point the outfitter to this URL and see what they think.
For a side note, the non-profit that set up me up on this trip has been a marvel of inefficiency through this whole process. I think of them as Lucy from Peanuts holding the football while I'm Charlie Brown. Way to go, Lucy. I missed the football again.
posted by diode at 7:36 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


I did a camping/kayak guided tour thingy and gratuity was expected and/or understood. At the end, we and the other couple on the trip kind of mumbled, "How much do you think for tip?" And I think we each pitched in a little over $100, maybe $120 or something. That was for two nights plus guiding plus she was the food wrangler and I could tell that she was putting in a lot of "service" time being friendly and making sure we were comfortable and engaged in the trip. This on top of her regular duties of making sure we didn't die and getting us to and from our destinations.

For a week-long trip, you can sort of see how it goes and also, if possible, check in with other participants ahead of time and see what they think.
posted by amanda at 8:08 PM on March 27, 2017


I would have tipped 10-15% anyway without the "fee", and have for anything of this nature (raft trips, guided mountain bike trips, deep sea fishing trips), so another vote for "this is normal [in the US]"

It is sort of crappy that they told you after you paid the deposit and understandable if you need to cancel because you didn't budget that much. You could also just try calling and telling them that you'll have to cancel because of the unforseen expense.

Lastly, 600 for 5 days is $5/hour and if this is the US that is not nearly a wage.
posted by czytm at 10:13 PM on March 27, 2017


A hundred to a hundred and fifty on a 5-day trip, when the guides are there 24 hours a day, seems about normal to me. When I was younger and had way less income it annoyed me as a hidden charge--much like you're experiencing--but it is customary and now I just budget for it. So I'm sympathetic but I don't think you're getting screwed.

Tipping in general is an annoying American custom with opaque guidelines, but I've started feeling better about it after looking it as a worker rights issue: I am getting asked directly if I want to pay for benefits, like vacation, for workers. People who work as guides, for example, typically won't be working year round, aren't moving up some career ladder, have no protection against swing in demand, only get paid when they are working, and will not be working at the same job until retirement. It's got its good points but it's a tough road. I wouldn't assume that companies that don't suggest a tip are automatically treating their employees well.

Admittedly my relaxed attitude developed after I had more disposable income. If you are short on cash you can decide to go and not pay, or tip less, if you want. It's not a legal obligation.

[FWIW I checked the web site of one company I've used before and while they don't heavily advertise the suggested tip, it is there in the FAQ.]
posted by mark k at 10:24 PM on March 27, 2017 [3 favorites]


You can also google "adventure tour tipping" or "rafting trip tipping" for examples
posted by czytm at 10:28 PM on March 27, 2017 [2 favorites]


Best answer: Former wilderness river guide here.

To answer your question, tipping at the end of a multi-day trip is customary, and a welcome way to say thanks to the people who went above and beyond to make your trip great.

River guiding is a 24-hour service profession, and the service goes far beyond most other service you've likely experienced. If you're in a wilderness area, for example, all excrement has to be collected and packed out- by someone. There's also cooking, cleaning, packing, hauling very heavy loads, setting up tents and toilet, giving special assistance to those who need it for just about anything from a blister to bongo drum accompaniment (don't knock it, I've seen someone w the right touch turn rainy cold misery into the best day on the river this way). One could say that the exact right service can't be captured in the job description so therefore it falls under 'exceptional service' and your company likes tips because they feel good to the exceptional guides who run exceptional trips.... & who are also trained life-savers that put their selves in harms way to protect their client from death or injury.

Should river companies raise guide wages? It's another discussion. But, if it helps I'll tell you that the general approach at the end of the trip is for a collection to be made from all clients on the trip, for the lead guide to tip out to not just the guides but also the (virtually unpaid) trainees earning their license by who are hauling and guiding the gear boat down with your stuff, a driver that missed his granddaughters birthday party to get the delayed boats put on the river before sundown, the high school kids that packed up the food boxes back at base, etc. If a certain individual has really done something exceptional or generous, a 20-30$ additional and specific thanks is sure gratifying.

Tipping is accepted and encouraged in the river community because it helps the good energy of sharing go around. "Do onto others" type stuff doesn't stop at the river either. An experienced trip leader is routinely a good tipper, and will pay it forward to the hardworking waitress at the trip dinner when finally off the water.

Often, guides anticipate tips and justify some discretionary spending that often circles back to the client- guides might buy a game or instrument to take along, and sharing special chocolate or a gin and tonic with precious ice and real lime is more fun when you have enough to share, and as guides that gets expensive... A tip helps what goes around to come around.

It's a tip, not a fee, so try to think of it that way. I'd really encourage you to go. It's a different economy on the river, that has nothing to do with money and everyone deserves to live for a while like that. Should the tip discussion be posted more prominently on the web page? Maybe, Ana's the guides would probably agree with you on that. That said, many companies are run by former guides and tips are awkward discussions, guides don't want to seem desperate or destitute, but they tend to be the frugal types that will make a tip dollar go a long way, and often for the benefit of the group and hardworking others that make their jobs possible.

You might just meet some special people and want to run with them again next year- they will remember you for the person you are, so remember you can be pitching in a bunch to make the work load/faster/funnier/lighter and this goes just as far as a fat tip. Sometimes safety is a concern and/or you're on vacation and want to sit back and be taken care of- especially in those cases, a larger tip is in order and a great way to say job well done!
posted by iiniisfree at 12:46 AM on March 28, 2017 [16 favorites]


I agree with iiniisfree. Tipping is customary on these types of trips, and given how much work the guides put in, 15-20% is totally normal. I get that you felt "surprised" by the tip, but IMO this is kind of like coming to the end of an expensive dinner and realizing that social norms dictate a generous tip.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:20 AM on March 28, 2017 [2 favorites]


The question you asked is "how to proceed." My straightforward answer is "prepare to pay the tip as recommended and have a good time." But if you think paying the tip is going to get in the way of enjoying the trip, cancel.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:03 AM on March 28, 2017 [3 favorites]


From my river guide buddies: tipping is absolutely customary, normal, and appreciated.
posted by Grandysaur at 1:18 PM on March 28, 2017 [1 favorite]


If it makes you feel any better, the guides are actually working seven days for a 5-day trip. They have a full day's work traveling to the put-in and hours of rigging equipment and rafts the day before you arrive. And the day you leave, they have another day's work of de-rigging rafts and equipment and several hours of travel back to the shop where they have to unload and clean up garbage and clean your toilets, etc. They are lucky to make three trips in a month.
posted by JackFlash at 1:44 PM on March 28, 2017 [4 favorites]


Response by poster: Okay, thanks for all the input. After some reflection we are going to take the trip. I queried the outfitter about the gratuity who replied it's totally voluntary. My reaction is partly based on my own experiences in the outdoors where the people on the trip did all the work and had no Sherpas to do the extra stuff. I had set an expectation at a certain price, and was surprised to see this extra cost as na expectation. Having surmounted that, it would be foolish to give up a chance to be on this river so green to go.
posted by diode at 12:02 PM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]


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