The seven year... something
March 24, 2017 11:14 AM Subscribe
My boyfriend and I never have sex, but I'm not sure either of us cares.
This is a confusing subject for me and I'm not 100% sure how I feel (or how my boyfriend feels!), so apologies if I come off as a little ambivalent.
My boyfriend and I have been together for about seven years (!), living together for about five. We've also been not-having-sex for about... four. I mean, we have sex, but on the scale of months; not weeks and certainly not days.
If you had asked me five years ago if this would be OK with me, I probably would have felt a profound depression. Nowadays, I'm not sure I totally care. My boyfriend and I are very close, very much in love, very physically affectionate (hugs, kisses, cuddling)-- just not very sexual.
To me, this is not particularly surprising. I tend to "get bored" sexually, just as I suppose most people do. I assume that at this stage of a relationship, most people have to put in a little bit of work to keep things fresh, or at least consistent. I am not necessarily opposed to putting in that work, but my boyfriend doesn't seem to see it as a priority (or even important, like at all), and while I feel sometimes frustrated that he doesn't care (in an grand, abstract way), I can't say it's totally killing me on a personal level.
As some background, I have always been quite sexual. As a teen I was (of course) super horny and probably more in touch with my sexuality than the average girl: masturbated frequently, from a young age; starting having sex early (around age 14); never felt any particularly pointed guilt or shame about my sexuality. I would say I was "aggressive" about my sexuality, more of a seeker-outer than a wait-and-seer, made the first move a lot of the time. Because I liked sex! And had no emotional interest in men without an emotional interest in me. Sex and emotions have tended to be fairly separate to me, though I do naturally notice a renewed affection and attachment after sex. My tastes have always been at the edge of vanilla; not expressly kinky but not totally mellow, either.
My boyfriend was probably as sexually excited as your average teenage boy, but he grew up with a lot more shame and anxiety about sex and masturbation. He was a virgin when we met and ramped up to sex very slowly, which was "weird" and different to me and we probably had a lot of miscommunication; it's possible my frankness about sex was awkward to him, but we eventually shared a pretty mutually fulfilling sex life, until about the point we moved in together. He was typically very embarrassed to talk about it, so there were a lot of kind of "unspoken cues," and it was a bit rocky for awhile (since I really prefer being straightforward, but I understand why people are different from me).
Since then, sex has been something that I initiate. It seems he is very rarely "in the mood," and never-- literally never-- initiates sex unless he's asleep (!!). He masturbates (as do I), but not that frequently. At first, it hurt my feelings when after one discussion of our dry spell, I realized that he was masturbating rather than turning his sexual energies toward me. But then I started doing the same and in some ways, it felt like a relief. It seems like I like sex, but I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.). It's not that I don't love him, it's just kind of chill to not worry about going through a willful suspension of belief just to achieve sexual satisfaction. And while I like having sex with him, I've never had an orgasm with any guy as strong as when I give them to myself. The thrill of sex for me is basically in its newness, and then I get a little... lazy. (Probably not new!)
What does concern me, I've realized, are a few things:
1) I feel somewhat insecure and unattractive. Men are supposed to be horny, right? (I know this is flawed; but it's in the back of my mind.) I feel fairly unsexy, despite the fact that I am more positive about my looks than ever before. I definitely don't feel desired, like, ever. (I don't really flirt with strangers or anything, and when I do I restrain the physical part out of fidelity.) It gives me a bit of vertigo to imagine never having passionate sex again, if we were to get married. I also don't particularly know if I am cut out for polyamory; if he were into it, I'd think about it, but he's definitely not. I get crushes and little sexual infatuations with random people in my life, but it's never felt over the line or dangerous like I'm dying of thirst in the desert or anything.
2) It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this. I've brought it up many times over the last few years, basically expressing that while I'm not dying inside, I do feel unattractive and confused when he doesn't want to have sex at all (unless he's in a pseudo-awake dream state...). He says that he feels a bit embarrassed to initiate sex, because we know each other so well now that we live together that it feels a bit like acting. I believe this explanation since I don't feel too differently, but I think as a woman I'm (unfortunately) more accustomed to being performative in my sex life, so it's not as much of a hurdle to me. I think I want him to work on this? But then again, maybe not? Maybe I really wouldn't welcome more frequent advances as much as my bruised ego leads me to believe. Maybe I really would find them inconvenient or distracting, and make him feel rejected. Maybe things are more harmonious now.
3) I have an instinct to see odd discordances like this as room for growth; as a place to put myself out there a bit, extend myself, try to fill the gap. If it were just me with the probably, I'd probably be trying some combo of talking through it and faking until I make it. There are definitely some issues surrounding sex where I feel like I or we have unresolved issues, and we could try talking them and stretching our boundaries a little. Stepping out of our comfort zones. It's the fact that he doesn't seem all that interested (and this is a general pattern, not just around sex) that concerns me.
I've gained a bit of weight since we got together, but the problems started before that, and I'm losing the weight now, but he's no more attracted to me with more or less weight, nice clothes or sweatpants, makeup or no makeup, after an absence or when together for months, etc. He doesn't look at porn (maybe tied into the shame thing, but I think he just finds a lot of it pretty distasteful), and just doesn't masturbate that often, so I don't think his sex drive is really all that high. I don't suspect him of any infidelity; much like the porn thing, we are together a lot, and he is not very tech-savvy, so I think I would have noticed by now.
If I really wanted sex, and initiated, and it wasn't at a particularly inconvenient time, it's quite possible to "seduce" him, so he's not totally unattracted to me or suffering from acute sexual dysfunction or whatever else. My gut instinct is that he senses my decline in passion, and as he enjoys being desired, this reduces his passion as well. He will talk about it with me and it doesn't seem like there is anything more major than that going on, EXCEPT that as mentioned earlier he does really have a lot of emotional barriers around sex and so while I tend to boredom in the absence of novelty, he seems to tend to chastity out of some kind of moral sense.
So I guess what I'm getting at is... should I care? Is this dysfunctional? Is it fatally dysfunctional? (To the relationship, not to our persons.) I know there are people who define themselves as asexual, but neither of us are that. I don't know if this seems OK to me because I don't know anything else, or if this is really, actually OK, or if this will come back to bite us in a decade, or something.
I have had a relationship in the past where I was often cajoled into a particular type of sex I really didn't like to have, and told that despite what I said, I really "did" like it because I had said so in the past, and other such weird bullshit, so I may or may not have baggage about doing things that I really don't like that much. I would say I could be more giving sexually, in the sense that we are all perfectible beings, but I don't think either of us qualifies as "selfish" during the act itself.
(Also, he's very attractive; my lack of sexual attraction has nothing to do with his looks. I'm worried that it has something to do with his behavior, or my behavior, but I'm not sure I can really account for that worry except that it doesn't seem to be normal. I see a lot of people on MeFi say that when the sex isn't happening, it's not a good sign.)
This is a confusing subject for me and I'm not 100% sure how I feel (or how my boyfriend feels!), so apologies if I come off as a little ambivalent.
My boyfriend and I have been together for about seven years (!), living together for about five. We've also been not-having-sex for about... four. I mean, we have sex, but on the scale of months; not weeks and certainly not days.
If you had asked me five years ago if this would be OK with me, I probably would have felt a profound depression. Nowadays, I'm not sure I totally care. My boyfriend and I are very close, very much in love, very physically affectionate (hugs, kisses, cuddling)-- just not very sexual.
To me, this is not particularly surprising. I tend to "get bored" sexually, just as I suppose most people do. I assume that at this stage of a relationship, most people have to put in a little bit of work to keep things fresh, or at least consistent. I am not necessarily opposed to putting in that work, but my boyfriend doesn't seem to see it as a priority (or even important, like at all), and while I feel sometimes frustrated that he doesn't care (in an grand, abstract way), I can't say it's totally killing me on a personal level.
As some background, I have always been quite sexual. As a teen I was (of course) super horny and probably more in touch with my sexuality than the average girl: masturbated frequently, from a young age; starting having sex early (around age 14); never felt any particularly pointed guilt or shame about my sexuality. I would say I was "aggressive" about my sexuality, more of a seeker-outer than a wait-and-seer, made the first move a lot of the time. Because I liked sex! And had no emotional interest in men without an emotional interest in me. Sex and emotions have tended to be fairly separate to me, though I do naturally notice a renewed affection and attachment after sex. My tastes have always been at the edge of vanilla; not expressly kinky but not totally mellow, either.
My boyfriend was probably as sexually excited as your average teenage boy, but he grew up with a lot more shame and anxiety about sex and masturbation. He was a virgin when we met and ramped up to sex very slowly, which was "weird" and different to me and we probably had a lot of miscommunication; it's possible my frankness about sex was awkward to him, but we eventually shared a pretty mutually fulfilling sex life, until about the point we moved in together. He was typically very embarrassed to talk about it, so there were a lot of kind of "unspoken cues," and it was a bit rocky for awhile (since I really prefer being straightforward, but I understand why people are different from me).
Since then, sex has been something that I initiate. It seems he is very rarely "in the mood," and never-- literally never-- initiates sex unless he's asleep (!!). He masturbates (as do I), but not that frequently. At first, it hurt my feelings when after one discussion of our dry spell, I realized that he was masturbating rather than turning his sexual energies toward me. But then I started doing the same and in some ways, it felt like a relief. It seems like I like sex, but I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.). It's not that I don't love him, it's just kind of chill to not worry about going through a willful suspension of belief just to achieve sexual satisfaction. And while I like having sex with him, I've never had an orgasm with any guy as strong as when I give them to myself. The thrill of sex for me is basically in its newness, and then I get a little... lazy. (Probably not new!)
What does concern me, I've realized, are a few things:
1) I feel somewhat insecure and unattractive. Men are supposed to be horny, right? (I know this is flawed; but it's in the back of my mind.) I feel fairly unsexy, despite the fact that I am more positive about my looks than ever before. I definitely don't feel desired, like, ever. (I don't really flirt with strangers or anything, and when I do I restrain the physical part out of fidelity.) It gives me a bit of vertigo to imagine never having passionate sex again, if we were to get married. I also don't particularly know if I am cut out for polyamory; if he were into it, I'd think about it, but he's definitely not. I get crushes and little sexual infatuations with random people in my life, but it's never felt over the line or dangerous like I'm dying of thirst in the desert or anything.
2) It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this. I've brought it up many times over the last few years, basically expressing that while I'm not dying inside, I do feel unattractive and confused when he doesn't want to have sex at all (unless he's in a pseudo-awake dream state...). He says that he feels a bit embarrassed to initiate sex, because we know each other so well now that we live together that it feels a bit like acting. I believe this explanation since I don't feel too differently, but I think as a woman I'm (unfortunately) more accustomed to being performative in my sex life, so it's not as much of a hurdle to me. I think I want him to work on this? But then again, maybe not? Maybe I really wouldn't welcome more frequent advances as much as my bruised ego leads me to believe. Maybe I really would find them inconvenient or distracting, and make him feel rejected. Maybe things are more harmonious now.
3) I have an instinct to see odd discordances like this as room for growth; as a place to put myself out there a bit, extend myself, try to fill the gap. If it were just me with the probably, I'd probably be trying some combo of talking through it and faking until I make it. There are definitely some issues surrounding sex where I feel like I or we have unresolved issues, and we could try talking them and stretching our boundaries a little. Stepping out of our comfort zones. It's the fact that he doesn't seem all that interested (and this is a general pattern, not just around sex) that concerns me.
I've gained a bit of weight since we got together, but the problems started before that, and I'm losing the weight now, but he's no more attracted to me with more or less weight, nice clothes or sweatpants, makeup or no makeup, after an absence or when together for months, etc. He doesn't look at porn (maybe tied into the shame thing, but I think he just finds a lot of it pretty distasteful), and just doesn't masturbate that often, so I don't think his sex drive is really all that high. I don't suspect him of any infidelity; much like the porn thing, we are together a lot, and he is not very tech-savvy, so I think I would have noticed by now.
If I really wanted sex, and initiated, and it wasn't at a particularly inconvenient time, it's quite possible to "seduce" him, so he's not totally unattracted to me or suffering from acute sexual dysfunction or whatever else. My gut instinct is that he senses my decline in passion, and as he enjoys being desired, this reduces his passion as well. He will talk about it with me and it doesn't seem like there is anything more major than that going on, EXCEPT that as mentioned earlier he does really have a lot of emotional barriers around sex and so while I tend to boredom in the absence of novelty, he seems to tend to chastity out of some kind of moral sense.
So I guess what I'm getting at is... should I care? Is this dysfunctional? Is it fatally dysfunctional? (To the relationship, not to our persons.) I know there are people who define themselves as asexual, but neither of us are that. I don't know if this seems OK to me because I don't know anything else, or if this is really, actually OK, or if this will come back to bite us in a decade, or something.
I have had a relationship in the past where I was often cajoled into a particular type of sex I really didn't like to have, and told that despite what I said, I really "did" like it because I had said so in the past, and other such weird bullshit, so I may or may not have baggage about doing things that I really don't like that much. I would say I could be more giving sexually, in the sense that we are all perfectible beings, but I don't think either of us qualifies as "selfish" during the act itself.
(Also, he's very attractive; my lack of sexual attraction has nothing to do with his looks. I'm worried that it has something to do with his behavior, or my behavior, but I'm not sure I can really account for that worry except that it doesn't seem to be normal. I see a lot of people on MeFi say that when the sex isn't happening, it's not a good sign.)
one of the best pieces of advice I ever got was actually for medicine, but it also applies here - there really isn't such a thing as "normal", there is only "normal for you".
I say this because I get the sense that some of your confusion is becuase you're feeling like society is telling you that there is a way you're supposed to be, and you're not that way, so now you think that's a problem. If that's the case, I promise you that you can tell the rest of society, and what the rest of the world thinks "normal" is supposed to be, to go pound sand because it sincerely and truly doesn't matter. It ain't any of our business and you can tell any busybodies i said that (and tell them I called them "beeyotch" too, becuase that way I sound all sassy).
But it also sounds like you're also not clear about how your boyfriend feels about this. You say that you've talked about this in the past, but it sounds like you've focused more on how you are feeling - it sounds like you've mainly focused on "honey, I kinda feel like you think I'm unattractive, can we work on that".
I'm wondering what would happen if you asked, "y'know, boyfriend, lemme check - are YOU okay with the amount of sex you're having? How do YOU feel about this? I've talked about how I feel when you don't initiate sex that much, are YOU feeling like you're unattractive when I don't?"
It could be that he just is at a point where he has an equally low interest in wild monkey sex right now too, just like you. In which case, if you're both at that same equal level of interest, then that's all that matters, in terms of whether you guys are having "enough" sex.
but you also say that you are feeling a little unattractive. I'm wondering if you've learned to equate sex with "validation that I am an attractive person". Which, yeah, would kinda make sense, but having sex is not the only way for you each to validate each other's interest in each other.
I would check in with him and see how he feels about this state of affairs, and then once you know that, you can both explore whether to either spice things up in the bedroom (if you're both feeling like you want a bit more nookie) or whether to find other ways to express physical effection and validate each other more (if that's more what you are into). And as far as what the rest of the world thinks, or whether what you ultimately decide to do together is "normal", then pay that no mind because there ain't no such thing.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I say this because I get the sense that some of your confusion is becuase you're feeling like society is telling you that there is a way you're supposed to be, and you're not that way, so now you think that's a problem. If that's the case, I promise you that you can tell the rest of society, and what the rest of the world thinks "normal" is supposed to be, to go pound sand because it sincerely and truly doesn't matter. It ain't any of our business and you can tell any busybodies i said that (and tell them I called them "beeyotch" too, becuase that way I sound all sassy).
But it also sounds like you're also not clear about how your boyfriend feels about this. You say that you've talked about this in the past, but it sounds like you've focused more on how you are feeling - it sounds like you've mainly focused on "honey, I kinda feel like you think I'm unattractive, can we work on that".
I'm wondering what would happen if you asked, "y'know, boyfriend, lemme check - are YOU okay with the amount of sex you're having? How do YOU feel about this? I've talked about how I feel when you don't initiate sex that much, are YOU feeling like you're unattractive when I don't?"
It could be that he just is at a point where he has an equally low interest in wild monkey sex right now too, just like you. In which case, if you're both at that same equal level of interest, then that's all that matters, in terms of whether you guys are having "enough" sex.
but you also say that you are feeling a little unattractive. I'm wondering if you've learned to equate sex with "validation that I am an attractive person". Which, yeah, would kinda make sense, but having sex is not the only way for you each to validate each other's interest in each other.
I would check in with him and see how he feels about this state of affairs, and then once you know that, you can both explore whether to either spice things up in the bedroom (if you're both feeling like you want a bit more nookie) or whether to find other ways to express physical effection and validate each other more (if that's more what you are into). And as far as what the rest of the world thinks, or whether what you ultimately decide to do together is "normal", then pay that no mind because there ain't no such thing.
Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
There's a lot of stuff to unpack here.
I don't think that, all other things being equal, a committed relationship where two people only have sex once every few months is dysfunctional. Or even once every few years. Or ever. It depends on the participants, what is going on on their lives, etc. Although, it sounds like both of you may have some hangups that are contributing to the low frequency.
I also don't think it's by definition dysfunctional to find that partnered sex is a lot more hassle/hard work than masturbation. On the other hand, it should not feel raw or unpleasant!
I guess what I find most troubling is that you've expressed an emotional need (to feel intimately desired), and your partner isn't really doing anything to try to fill it. Maybe you didn't express your need as clearly as you did here, or maybe he doesn't equate sex with intimacy and doesn't know what other ways he could make you feel desired without sex. The fact that neither of you really seem to have the framework and/or desire to communicate on this issue is a bigger concern than the actual frequency itself.
posted by muddgirl at 11:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [19 favorites]
I don't think that, all other things being equal, a committed relationship where two people only have sex once every few months is dysfunctional. Or even once every few years. Or ever. It depends on the participants, what is going on on their lives, etc. Although, it sounds like both of you may have some hangups that are contributing to the low frequency.
I also don't think it's by definition dysfunctional to find that partnered sex is a lot more hassle/hard work than masturbation. On the other hand, it should not feel raw or unpleasant!
I guess what I find most troubling is that you've expressed an emotional need (to feel intimately desired), and your partner isn't really doing anything to try to fill it. Maybe you didn't express your need as clearly as you did here, or maybe he doesn't equate sex with intimacy and doesn't know what other ways he could make you feel desired without sex. The fact that neither of you really seem to have the framework and/or desire to communicate on this issue is a bigger concern than the actual frequency itself.
posted by muddgirl at 11:35 AM on March 24, 2017 [19 favorites]
If he his historically had shame issues, is it possible that there's something he's not telling you because the shame would be too great?
posted by amtho at 11:39 AM on March 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by amtho at 11:39 AM on March 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
I agree with the gist of much of the above - there is nothing inherently wrong with infrequent sex if the infrequency is ok with everybody, yet it does sound like there are things that the two of you could discuss more effectively.
But here is what I will add: there may come a time in your life when you have a very strong desire for more sex. Many people's general level of libido rises and falls over the years. And it would be unwise to wait until that day comes, to figure out what to do about it and how to talk about it. It would be much wiser to have real talk now about how either of you will promise to respond if that day comes for the other - about whether monogamy is an absolute for either of you - etc.
posted by sheldman at 11:57 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
But here is what I will add: there may come a time in your life when you have a very strong desire for more sex. Many people's general level of libido rises and falls over the years. And it would be unwise to wait until that day comes, to figure out what to do about it and how to talk about it. It would be much wiser to have real talk now about how either of you will promise to respond if that day comes for the other - about whether monogamy is an absolute for either of you - etc.
posted by sheldman at 11:57 AM on March 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman
This is the crux of the question and you made it so painfully recognizably clear what you mean, but so easy to read around if someone is inclined to. I would like to say "but it doesn't have to be that way" but I can't prove it to you. & you certainly are the only one in a position to know if it does have to be that way with this particular man.
I don't think any advice that doesn't look this issue full in the face will be of much use to you.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:06 PM on March 24, 2017 [45 favorites]
This is the crux of the question and you made it so painfully recognizably clear what you mean, but so easy to read around if someone is inclined to. I would like to say "but it doesn't have to be that way" but I can't prove it to you. & you certainly are the only one in a position to know if it does have to be that way with this particular man.
I don't think any advice that doesn't look this issue full in the face will be of much use to you.
posted by queenofbithynia at 12:06 PM on March 24, 2017 [45 favorites]
I just finished reading Come As You Are by sex educator Emily Nagoski, and I think it'd be a nearly perfect book for you to read and help yourself think through your feelings here. The focus is very much on how "there is no normal" as previous commenters have brought up as a useful framing.
posted by augustimagination at 12:34 PM on March 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 12:34 PM on March 24, 2017 [5 favorites]
It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this. I've brought it up many times over the last few years, basically expressing that while I'm not dying inside, I do feel unattractive and confused when he doesn't want to have sex at all
You deserve someone who is willing to work your relationship and your sex life/sexuality with you, and someone that will honor exploring what your needs/wants/feelings are around this. Sure -- you may both decide it's not that big of deal for both ya'll, but you it sounds like you are carrying around a lot of this on your own, without working on it together.
You're right- there is no normal, but still I just sense you are a sexy, sensual woman who is capable of awesome mind blowing good feeling sexy times with a partner that can hold space for that. And attune to YOUR NEEDS - which is not making you do things/cajoling you into anything, but also not like just ignoring sex and the whole conversation. Frankly, straight males sometimes do not know how to be with a woman and attune to her needs for a long-ass time. I didn't start having the sex I really wanted and needed until my 30's - and after really doing a deep dive into much exploration around what I was missing with my partner.
You shouldn't have to do all the seducing. You deserve to receive, be seduced, and be offered the energy and place and person to do this with. Not saying you need to break this up, but your needs are real. I hope you all can both be open to working on this dynamic.
posted by Rocket26 at 12:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
You deserve someone who is willing to work your relationship and your sex life/sexuality with you, and someone that will honor exploring what your needs/wants/feelings are around this. Sure -- you may both decide it's not that big of deal for both ya'll, but you it sounds like you are carrying around a lot of this on your own, without working on it together.
You're right- there is no normal, but still I just sense you are a sexy, sensual woman who is capable of awesome mind blowing good feeling sexy times with a partner that can hold space for that. And attune to YOUR NEEDS - which is not making you do things/cajoling you into anything, but also not like just ignoring sex and the whole conversation. Frankly, straight males sometimes do not know how to be with a woman and attune to her needs for a long-ass time. I didn't start having the sex I really wanted and needed until my 30's - and after really doing a deep dive into much exploration around what I was missing with my partner.
You shouldn't have to do all the seducing. You deserve to receive, be seduced, and be offered the energy and place and person to do this with. Not saying you need to break this up, but your needs are real. I hope you all can both be open to working on this dynamic.
posted by Rocket26 at 12:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
Apologies in advance for bluntness (am a bit tired).
Sounds like his shame issues are in the way, agree with you that he should try (& want to try) to address them. His indirect communication style is not helping. Assistance with that (counselling?) might make a difference. Not if he doesn't want it (in which case, this is just what it's going to be like for you guys, & you need to decide if that's ok with you. But don't lie to yourself. That might hurt you, him, and the relationship longer-term.) I think part of it might be inertia & having gotten into the friend zone. That can be shaken up (if he's up for it. If not... Again, it's a decision for you to make.)
Re QoB's point, sounds like you're tired of performing. Just stop doing it. Take it way back to the naive - forget GGG. Only do what feels good on a sensory level (even if it looks/sounds kooky), both with your partner and sometimes when you're on your own, in both sexual and non-sexual contexts - close your eyes, cultivate a present- and feeling-oriented awareness.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:51 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sounds like his shame issues are in the way, agree with you that he should try (& want to try) to address them. His indirect communication style is not helping. Assistance with that (counselling?) might make a difference. Not if he doesn't want it (in which case, this is just what it's going to be like for you guys, & you need to decide if that's ok with you. But don't lie to yourself. That might hurt you, him, and the relationship longer-term.) I think part of it might be inertia & having gotten into the friend zone. That can be shaken up (if he's up for it. If not... Again, it's a decision for you to make.)
Re QoB's point, sounds like you're tired of performing. Just stop doing it. Take it way back to the naive - forget GGG. Only do what feels good on a sensory level (even if it looks/sounds kooky), both with your partner and sometimes when you're on your own, in both sexual and non-sexual contexts - close your eyes, cultivate a present- and feeling-oriented awareness.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:51 PM on March 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
You wrote too much for this to be unimportant for you. He doesn't get to coast along not dealing with this relationship inequality AND keep thinking of himself as a good supportive boyfriend. You keep bringing it up and he keeps overlooking the problem.
You deserve his efforts because that's what a partnership is all about.
posted by jbenben at 1:07 PM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
You deserve his efforts because that's what a partnership is all about.
posted by jbenben at 1:07 PM on March 24, 2017 [8 favorites]
I agree with queenofbithynia. That sentence stuck out at me like a flashing neon sign: I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.).
No. Sex should not be like this. Especially not sex in a long-term, committed, loving relationship. I think you want good sex, but your experiences have led you to believe that it doesn't really exist. I'm here to tell you (as a woman) that it does. But like queenofbithynia, I can't tell you if it can exist within your current relationship.
Also: Men are supposed to be horny, right? No, this is not how you should be framing it. Men (and women) are supposed to be attracted to their partners, though. And demonstrating sexual desire is one significant way we show that. It's understandable that you feel unattractive.
Maybe I really wouldn't welcome more frequent advances as much as my bruised ego leads me to believe. Maybe I really would find them inconvenient or distracting, and make him feel rejected. Maybe things are more harmonious now.
Absolutely no. These preemptive "maybes" are you trying to ignore the voice in your head. Trying to ignore your perfectly normal and reasonable desires. I feel sad for you, because I feel like you've lowered your bar so much and for no good reason. You can have a much better sex life than this! Hopefully even with your current partner! But you need to be able to talk to each other, and he has a responsibility to work with you on this. Good luck, and hugs.
posted by yawper at 1:22 PM on March 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
No. Sex should not be like this. Especially not sex in a long-term, committed, loving relationship. I think you want good sex, but your experiences have led you to believe that it doesn't really exist. I'm here to tell you (as a woman) that it does. But like queenofbithynia, I can't tell you if it can exist within your current relationship.
Also: Men are supposed to be horny, right? No, this is not how you should be framing it. Men (and women) are supposed to be attracted to their partners, though. And demonstrating sexual desire is one significant way we show that. It's understandable that you feel unattractive.
Maybe I really wouldn't welcome more frequent advances as much as my bruised ego leads me to believe. Maybe I really would find them inconvenient or distracting, and make him feel rejected. Maybe things are more harmonious now.
Absolutely no. These preemptive "maybes" are you trying to ignore the voice in your head. Trying to ignore your perfectly normal and reasonable desires. I feel sad for you, because I feel like you've lowered your bar so much and for no good reason. You can have a much better sex life than this! Hopefully even with your current partner! But you need to be able to talk to each other, and he has a responsibility to work with you on this. Good luck, and hugs.
posted by yawper at 1:22 PM on March 24, 2017 [24 favorites]
(i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.).
I hate to put it so bluntly but if my partnered sex was like this, I too would rather masturbate for sexual fulfillment and find another way to be close with my partner. It really, really shouldn't be that way. So, I would reading the already suggested Come As You Are and perhaps working out a several-months period with your partner where there is no intercourse but instead, masturbating together and masturbating each other to learn what is pleasurable not just tolerable.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:58 PM on March 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
I hate to put it so bluntly but if my partnered sex was like this, I too would rather masturbate for sexual fulfillment and find another way to be close with my partner. It really, really shouldn't be that way. So, I would reading the already suggested Come As You Are and perhaps working out a several-months period with your partner where there is no intercourse but instead, masturbating together and masturbating each other to learn what is pleasurable not just tolerable.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:58 PM on March 24, 2017 [13 favorites]
I'm a woman, and I just want to chime in and nth that sex does not need to involve "the million tiny and painful indignities." I've had plenty of lousy sex with men who think vaginas are like fleshlights, so I know what you're talking about. But the right partner would never be okay with causing you to feel this way.
I know you've been together for a long time. When you're thinking through everything, take care not to fall prey to the sunk costs fallacy.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:27 PM on March 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
I know you've been together for a long time. When you're thinking through everything, take care not to fall prey to the sunk costs fallacy.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 2:27 PM on March 24, 2017 [15 favorites]
if you didn't care, you wouldn't have written this much about it
I'm going to respectfully dissent from this. There are all sorts of reasons one would talk about this without it being an actual problem. The culture tells us we should always be having sex and there's something wrong if we don't; we know that the lack of sex is out of step with how this person's historical narrative has been; and so forth.
IMHO, if you're fine with periodic sex, great.
posted by jpe at 3:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
I'm going to respectfully dissent from this. There are all sorts of reasons one would talk about this without it being an actual problem. The culture tells us we should always be having sex and there's something wrong if we don't; we know that the lack of sex is out of step with how this person's historical narrative has been; and so forth.
IMHO, if you're fine with periodic sex, great.
posted by jpe at 3:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this.
This is a relationship deal-breaker whether it's sex or laundry. What's important to you should be on the relationship agenda, at least to try things out and see what works for both parties.
I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.).
Sex does not have to be like this latter part of your statement, at all. Mine hasn't been that way since I met my husband, and we are still hot for each other although mostly on a weekly-ish basis right now with all the other pieces of our life together to fit in. I am not sure how to help other than to provide perspective that you do not have to settle for this if you don't want to - and therapy might be helpful in helping you figure out if you want to.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
This is a relationship deal-breaker whether it's sex or laundry. What's important to you should be on the relationship agenda, at least to try things out and see what works for both parties.
I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.).
Sex does not have to be like this latter part of your statement, at all. Mine hasn't been that way since I met my husband, and we are still hot for each other although mostly on a weekly-ish basis right now with all the other pieces of our life together to fit in. I am not sure how to help other than to provide perspective that you do not have to settle for this if you don't want to - and therapy might be helpful in helping you figure out if you want to.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:45 PM on March 24, 2017 [4 favorites]
I like it only when the passion overrides the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman (i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.)
I basically gasped with delight when I read this because it describes so perfectly how I feel about sex with my husband. Whom I love with all my heart. We've been together for 11 years and we have sex about once a month (his libido his plummeted since he started taking an antidepressant). I'm not into it more often than that either. So I just wanted you to know that there's someone who can relate. I'm cool with it. I have a sense of humor about it. Yeah, I miss the exciting sex of my youth. But I wouldn't trade this for that. I agree with the advice that you two could put some work in to make it better, but when people suggest this isn't the norm, I wonder if they are women and how many years they've been together, living with their partners. Mefites are lovely in that they want you, an internet stranger who is part of this community, to have so much better. My point is - you're definitely not alone and I would presume to say, far from it.
posted by kitcat at 5:08 PM on March 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
I basically gasped with delight when I read this because it describes so perfectly how I feel about sex with my husband. Whom I love with all my heart. We've been together for 11 years and we have sex about once a month (his libido his plummeted since he started taking an antidepressant). I'm not into it more often than that either. So I just wanted you to know that there's someone who can relate. I'm cool with it. I have a sense of humor about it. Yeah, I miss the exciting sex of my youth. But I wouldn't trade this for that. I agree with the advice that you two could put some work in to make it better, but when people suggest this isn't the norm, I wonder if they are women and how many years they've been together, living with their partners. Mefites are lovely in that they want you, an internet stranger who is part of this community, to have so much better. My point is - you're definitely not alone and I would presume to say, far from it.
posted by kitcat at 5:08 PM on March 24, 2017 [17 favorites]
As a woman who has been living with her male partner for 13 years, that is so far from the norm for me that I gasped—in horror.
If anything, sex has become far better and more exciting every year. We both initiate. We have gotten much better at talking about it. We have weathered body changes and mental health changes and fertility journeys. It is overall a time when I feel most at home in my body, a practice that leads to pain relief not increased pain, a shared joy, often hilarity.
You aren't alone in this, and it doesn't have to be this way.
posted by sadmadglad at 6:00 PM on March 24, 2017 [20 favorites]
If anything, sex has become far better and more exciting every year. We both initiate. We have gotten much better at talking about it. We have weathered body changes and mental health changes and fertility journeys. It is overall a time when I feel most at home in my body, a practice that leads to pain relief not increased pain, a shared joy, often hilarity.
You aren't alone in this, and it doesn't have to be this way.
posted by sadmadglad at 6:00 PM on March 24, 2017 [20 favorites]
Yes I should mention I've been married almost 23 years. Sex is better and better.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:16 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by warriorqueen at 6:16 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
I'm with kitcat and I hope you hear us under all the other answers here. I have had lots and lots of sex with lots and lots of partners and maybe I'm particularly unlucky or something but even the very best sex was still full of those little indignities. I think being a heterosexual ciswoman leaves no other options but I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me I'm wrong.
My husband is amazing. When we were first dating and up until maybe year 5, sex was great and constant. At year 10, nah, I don't care as much as I used to and frankly it's a relief. There was a time I'd say that I loved giving blowies and now that I'm 34 and not as insecure I can admit that blow jobs give me no pleasure. I think women in our culture are steeped so deeply in the male gaze and all it entails that I'd need a total deprogramming to get to the level some people here are talking about.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:58 PM on March 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
My husband is amazing. When we were first dating and up until maybe year 5, sex was great and constant. At year 10, nah, I don't care as much as I used to and frankly it's a relief. There was a time I'd say that I loved giving blowies and now that I'm 34 and not as insecure I can admit that blow jobs give me no pleasure. I think women in our culture are steeped so deeply in the male gaze and all it entails that I'd need a total deprogramming to get to the level some people here are talking about.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 8:58 PM on March 24, 2017 [10 favorites]
It's perfectly okay and normal to have a loving relationship where sex is infrequent. Sometimes we go for months and sometimes it is every other day. There are normal ebbs and flows to people's libido and time and energy and enthusiasm.
What is not normal or okay is for a partner to be unwilling to discuss this, work with you, make sex pleasurable for you (not dry or performative or lousy) or only willing to engage when asleep(!).
If you can have clear communication about what you each want and how much and in what style, and do what it takes to meet each other's needs in an acceptable matter - say, scheduling sex nights or admiring each other physically when not interested in sex or holding the other while they masturbate or however it works best for you - then things are good.
If you don't think that's possible then that's a really big red flag regardless of how frequent said sex is.
It sounds like this is the latter situation, and that doesn't have to be okay with you even if the current frequency of sex is.
posted by hapaxes.legomenon at 9:07 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
What is not normal or okay is for a partner to be unwilling to discuss this, work with you, make sex pleasurable for you (not dry or performative or lousy) or only willing to engage when asleep(!).
If you can have clear communication about what you each want and how much and in what style, and do what it takes to meet each other's needs in an acceptable matter - say, scheduling sex nights or admiring each other physically when not interested in sex or holding the other while they masturbate or however it works best for you - then things are good.
If you don't think that's possible then that's a really big red flag regardless of how frequent said sex is.
It sounds like this is the latter situation, and that doesn't have to be okay with you even if the current frequency of sex is.
posted by hapaxes.legomenon at 9:07 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Our partners sound similar, and we sound similar. I've been with my husband fifteen years now, from age 18, and it's been interesting to see the progression of our mutual sexualities into our thirties. There have been periods of great sex and randy sex and kinky sex and frequent sex and also less great sex. We're in an interesting phase right now where we're not having it all that frequently--we have a small kid and I had some postpartum healing issues that kind of shifted my sexuality completely and made penetration awful for awhile--and what really helped was giving myself permission to have it only when i really want to and only do things that felt good and you know what? Even though the frequency is low right now the quality is really great and our relationship is affectionate, connected, and loving.
Which isn't to say that I don't masturbate quite a bit, because I do. I actually love my solo sex life with an intensity I haven't felt since I was, like, 12, and partnered sex seems pretty separate from that these days but really reveling in my ability to give myself pleasure (and also having a relationship that makes me feel loved and supported in so many other ways) has also given me permission to have much better sex, I think. It's neither performative nor transactionary, which our worst sex has been, at times. It's just really sexy and comfortable and loving. So that's nice.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:53 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
Which isn't to say that I don't masturbate quite a bit, because I do. I actually love my solo sex life with an intensity I haven't felt since I was, like, 12, and partnered sex seems pretty separate from that these days but really reveling in my ability to give myself pleasure (and also having a relationship that makes me feel loved and supported in so many other ways) has also given me permission to have much better sex, I think. It's neither performative nor transactionary, which our worst sex has been, at times. It's just really sexy and comfortable and loving. So that's nice.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 9:53 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
(i.e., literal physical discomfort, rawness, doing the same unpleasurable thing repeatedly because you know it gets someone else off, etc.)
This stood out a mile to me. Sex shouldn't be like this, definitely. Perhaps a quick trip to the doctor is in order to make sure everything's ok?
I feel somewhat insecure and unattractive.
It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this.
These are absolutely valid concerns, and you shouldn't pretend they don't exist. As others have said, you obviously care by your posting. You have a right to feel secure and attractive within your relationship and this shouldn't be in doubt. If he's not willing to work on what is a very significant part of a relationship (and you've made it clear that you're not happy with the amount and quality of sex that's going on), then he needs to start doing so right now or risk losing you.
Therapy, preferably couples but if that's too hard then just you to start with.
posted by tillsbury at 11:13 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
This stood out a mile to me. Sex shouldn't be like this, definitely. Perhaps a quick trip to the doctor is in order to make sure everything's ok?
I feel somewhat insecure and unattractive.
It concerns me a bit that he's not really willing to work on this.
These are absolutely valid concerns, and you shouldn't pretend they don't exist. As others have said, you obviously care by your posting. You have a right to feel secure and attractive within your relationship and this shouldn't be in doubt. If he's not willing to work on what is a very significant part of a relationship (and you've made it clear that you're not happy with the amount and quality of sex that's going on), then he needs to start doing so right now or risk losing you.
Therapy, preferably couples but if that's too hard then just you to start with.
posted by tillsbury at 11:13 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
If this were a story about 2 people who didn't care about having sex anymore, that would be fine, 2 people just doing or not doing whatever makes them both comfortable.
But this is not that story. I think you have decided that no sex is better than bad sex and if that is true, therefore you don't want to have any sex at all. And then you're wondering how that can be because you didn't used to feel that way. I think what has happened is that his family infected him with the shame disease and it has infected you too by exposure. Not that you now feel shame per se but the shame disease kills the parts of your brain that seeks something out because it feels good. You have to decide if this relationship is worth this sacrifice, for you.
posted by bleep at 11:40 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
But this is not that story. I think you have decided that no sex is better than bad sex and if that is true, therefore you don't want to have any sex at all. And then you're wondering how that can be because you didn't used to feel that way. I think what has happened is that his family infected him with the shame disease and it has infected you too by exposure. Not that you now feel shame per se but the shame disease kills the parts of your brain that seeks something out because it feels good. You have to decide if this relationship is worth this sacrifice, for you.
posted by bleep at 11:40 PM on March 24, 2017 [3 favorites]
the million tiny and painful indignities of having sex as a woman
Is sex physically painful or uncomfortable for you? I spent a long time believing that all women had this sort of ambivalent, conflicted relationship with heterosexual sex because I, personally, found it to be physically uncomfortable and often painful. It led to this mental loop where I started to think of sex as a degrading and unpleasant experience for a woman inherently because I thought all women had the same level of pain and discomfort during it that I did. I've been learning over the past few months, through reading books like Come As You Are, listening to other women and going to therapy, that this is apparently not true at all and starting to break that mental association. It's definitely decreased a lot of my ambivalence/confused hostility towards sex.
I don't know if the root of your feelings about sex are similar to mine but I do know that that sentence you wrote was very relatable to me. That feeling is clearly very common for women but I'm not sure that it has to be that way.
posted by armadillo1224 at 6:17 AM on March 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
Is sex physically painful or uncomfortable for you? I spent a long time believing that all women had this sort of ambivalent, conflicted relationship with heterosexual sex because I, personally, found it to be physically uncomfortable and often painful. It led to this mental loop where I started to think of sex as a degrading and unpleasant experience for a woman inherently because I thought all women had the same level of pain and discomfort during it that I did. I've been learning over the past few months, through reading books like Come As You Are, listening to other women and going to therapy, that this is apparently not true at all and starting to break that mental association. It's definitely decreased a lot of my ambivalence/confused hostility towards sex.
I don't know if the root of your feelings about sex are similar to mine but I do know that that sentence you wrote was very relatable to me. That feeling is clearly very common for women but I'm not sure that it has to be that way.
posted by armadillo1224 at 6:17 AM on March 25, 2017 [2 favorites]
I felt that way about my ex who I was with for a long time and, quite frankly, was never really sexually attracted to. We went years without sex and I didn't feel the lack. It was frequently uncomfortable the way you mention, when we did bother. I assumed that's how things were going to be forever until I met someone who I did find sexually attractive. One thing I've noticed over the four years we've been together is that those physical discomforts are nonexistent now. I think they were a side effect of trying to have sex when I really didn't want to but felt pressured to do so.
posted by cabingirl at 7:02 AM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by cabingirl at 7:02 AM on March 26, 2017 [2 favorites]
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There's a lot to unpack here, but I think if you didn't care, you wouldn't have written this much about it. To use the go-to here, have you considered couples therapy to discuss it?
posted by Candleman at 11:30 AM on March 24, 2017 [16 favorites]