Dealership can't duplicate problem, sending parents away in deadly car?!
March 11, 2017 2:17 PM Subscribe
My parents have a 2013 Dodge Minivan that has shut off while driving three times - once a month or so ago, and twice very recently, between trips to the dealer who told them they couldn't duplicate or sense the problem.
So of course the dealer won't try to fix or pay for anything - they're telling my parents they need to get a "caseworker" to see the car. It's their only car, they aren't rolling in dough, how is this OK?!?! Does anyone have any experience with what to do here?
So of course the dealer won't try to fix or pay for anything - they're telling my parents they need to get a "caseworker" to see the car. It's their only car, they aren't rolling in dough, how is this OK?!?! Does anyone have any experience with what to do here?
My mom had the same problem with her old Jaguar, I can ask her what the issue was, but basically she twice brought it to the dealer, and they couldn't duplicate the issue. After the next time it happened to her on the highway (!!!) , she brought it to the dealer and basically demanded they keep the car and give her a loaner until they figure it out. One of the repair guys used it as his to- and- from work car until low and behold, it did it to him too.
They fixed the issue, but my mother never felt comfortable in that car again and traded it in.
posted by zara at 2:59 PM on March 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
They fixed the issue, but my mother never felt comfortable in that car again and traded it in.
posted by zara at 2:59 PM on March 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
You can go to any Dodge dealer. You aren't bound to use the dealer who sold you the car. I'd suggest showing up at the nearest best rated Dodge shop and keep using the word "liability."
posted by spitbull at 3:35 PM on March 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by spitbull at 3:35 PM on March 11, 2017 [1 favorite]
This is a long-shot, but I've had that happen once when I was borrowing someone's car and they had some big item (I think it was pepper spray) attached to the key chain. When I shifted my leg while driving it managed to bump the key chain in such a way that turned off the car. Terrifying.
posted by nixxon at 3:45 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by nixxon at 3:45 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
There's a million things that could cause this (hopefully Brockles will weigh in). It's not acceptable and it's dangerous AF and you shouldn't self-diagnose it (nor should we in the absence of more data, such as what the dealership supposedly ruled out and what codes they did pull). A certified mechanic needs to get to the bottom of it, if necessity by experimentation.
Frankly I'd be reluctant to drive it at all and would suggest having it towed. I would guess it's out of warranty (Dodge is 3yr/36k I believe) but did the dealer say it wasn't the specific TSB mentioned above? Did they do that recall service anyway? That would be done even if out of warranty at any competent dealer shop -- all extant recalls need to get done at next service inn most cases. If they missed this one it is a bad sign. Anyway it has to be ruled out.
Anecdotes about things that cause loss of ignition at speed in other cases many not be useful here. Literally a hundred things could be wrong, from an ECU issue to a fuel system problem (vapor lock, fuel pump failure, etc) to an ignition short to a failing electrical system.
This can absolutely be deadly. It has killed plenty of people to lose ignition at speed. I would have it towed to a different Dodge dealer and then get on the horn with Dodge corporate if you get more runaround. Say you're not picking it up.
The first dealer is terrible. No way they should have sent that car back out unfixed.
posted by spitbull at 3:56 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Frankly I'd be reluctant to drive it at all and would suggest having it towed. I would guess it's out of warranty (Dodge is 3yr/36k I believe) but did the dealer say it wasn't the specific TSB mentioned above? Did they do that recall service anyway? That would be done even if out of warranty at any competent dealer shop -- all extant recalls need to get done at next service inn most cases. If they missed this one it is a bad sign. Anyway it has to be ruled out.
Anecdotes about things that cause loss of ignition at speed in other cases many not be useful here. Literally a hundred things could be wrong, from an ECU issue to a fuel system problem (vapor lock, fuel pump failure, etc) to an ignition short to a failing electrical system.
This can absolutely be deadly. It has killed plenty of people to lose ignition at speed. I would have it towed to a different Dodge dealer and then get on the horn with Dodge corporate if you get more runaround. Say you're not picking it up.
The first dealer is terrible. No way they should have sent that car back out unfixed.
posted by spitbull at 3:56 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
Time to call corporate. It's amazing what dealers will do when corporate is breathing down their necks. And then have the car towed to the dealer.
posted by radioamy at 4:46 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by radioamy at 4:46 PM on March 11, 2017 [2 favorites]
In the meantime here is a concise guide to what to do if your engine stops on the highway from Consumer Reports. Make sure you go over it well with your folks. It could save their lives not to panic and to know what to do.
posted by spitbull at 4:46 PM on March 11, 2017
posted by spitbull at 4:46 PM on March 11, 2017
What nixxon said above. When the dealer drives it the only thing in the ignition is the key. When your parents drive what else is hanging on that key? The extra weight may make a difference.
posted by Carbolic at 6:14 PM on March 11, 2017
posted by Carbolic at 6:14 PM on March 11, 2017
I misunderstood the first answer about a recall. The 2013 Dodge minivans have no such recall on them.
One would think a problem leading to recall of nearly 300k vehicles in 2010 would be solved 3 model years later. Yes the key could be working loose from too much weight. But surely the shop took a look at the ignition switch and lock tumblers, given that this is both the subject of a huge prior recall on the same model and given that GM paid a heavy price for killing a bunch of people by failing to engineer ignition switches around this very obvious problem to save a few cents per vehicle (not heavy enough though).
As I said it could be the key. It could be a bad diode or a failing fuel pump or a lot of other things. You do not want to trial and error troubleshoot this. You want Dodge to figure out what's going on definitively and fix it definitively. Even if it's s heavy key ring causing the problem, there's no guarantee the damage isn't done internally to the lock cylinder from that and it won't happen someday when just the key is in the ignition with no other weight. First thing any good tech would do is inspect that switch and lock. Again zero points for the dealer if this didn't occur to them.
Can't emphasize enough how dangerous this can be. Dodge needs to diagnose and fix it.
posted by spitbull at 8:15 PM on March 11, 2017
One would think a problem leading to recall of nearly 300k vehicles in 2010 would be solved 3 model years later. Yes the key could be working loose from too much weight. But surely the shop took a look at the ignition switch and lock tumblers, given that this is both the subject of a huge prior recall on the same model and given that GM paid a heavy price for killing a bunch of people by failing to engineer ignition switches around this very obvious problem to save a few cents per vehicle (not heavy enough though).
As I said it could be the key. It could be a bad diode or a failing fuel pump or a lot of other things. You do not want to trial and error troubleshoot this. You want Dodge to figure out what's going on definitively and fix it definitively. Even if it's s heavy key ring causing the problem, there's no guarantee the damage isn't done internally to the lock cylinder from that and it won't happen someday when just the key is in the ignition with no other weight. First thing any good tech would do is inspect that switch and lock. Again zero points for the dealer if this didn't occur to them.
Can't emphasize enough how dangerous this can be. Dodge needs to diagnose and fix it.
posted by spitbull at 8:15 PM on March 11, 2017
So - first of all, anyone guessing at causes and solutions needs to be ignored/needs to stop doing so. There is absolutely zero information here to diagnose the issue, so these are complete, hail mary, wild ass guesses at absolute best and as such are unhelpful. This question is *actually* 'how do I get a dealer to fix a fault that can't be made to happen when they have the car' not 'what is wrong with my car'.
So of course the dealer won't try to fix or pay for anything - ... It's their only car, they aren't rolling in dough, how is this OK?!?!
Just hold on there, and look at it dispassionately for a minute - a dealer gets a car arrive at their service area with a 'fault'. They are completely unable to replicate the fault. They can consequently neither prove the cause of the fault or even prove the existence of the fault itself.
Based on that - and ignoring your frustration for a second - what exactly do you expect them to *pay* for? What can they do if the problem doesn't occur? Without seeing the issue there is likely also zero evidence of or from the issue, so their hands are tied.
Customer fallibility is a major, major factor in car failures and while it may not be the problem here, if the dealer can't make the fault occur, they can't possibly start to diagnose it, so just get that perspective for a second. It is actually a perfectly reasonable position for them to hold. THIS is why - whenever people have an intermittent fault in Askme - I suggest that people pay extremely close attention to environmental, situational, temperature related, weather related issues for the fault. Intermittent faults are the bane of all mechanics everywhere and unless you can work out the consistent factor (is the car always cold, is it always raining, is it always as the car goes over a bump, is it always when you go full throttle after along period of coasting etc, etc) then replicating the fault is extremely hard. So with intermittent faults it is often not worth taking it to the mechanic unless you can *make* the problem occur, or at the very least learn a way to make it more likely to occur.
However this particular problem is dangerous (because, depending on what is meant by 'shuts off') the air bags may be disabled, and either way, the brakes are affected (they will still work, but ABS function could be non-functional) and certainly steering weight is considerably increased (the hydraulic pump stops running and so assistance is removed). So driving it until it does it more often is not a wise move.
First of all, we need to work out what 'shut off' means - does everything go dead? No dash lights? No sign of power? Or does the engine just stop and the dash lights up like a christmas tree with the oil warning lights, check engine etc all coming on like they do when you first turn the car on. Is the switch still in the 'run' position or has it turned off? What is happening each time that this occurs? Full throttle? Zero throttle? First thing when you drive the car, or only after a certain amount of time. Think through each incident and mark down EVERY aspect ("We'd been driving for x minutes, daytime no lights on, no cruise control, accelerating or at constant speed on the highway/street, the car was being used for the first time that day/just been restarted outside a store etc.", etc). Get everything down. Commonalities may be useful to diagnose or replicate.
All the obvious stuff- like spitbull suggests with the heavy key chain - needs to be eliminated. Take everything off the ignition key from now on. Immediately. If the dealer was given a single ignition key when you gave them the car (the spare key?) and they took their usual 10lb ring of other keys home with them, then this may be precisely why they couldn't replicate the issue or why it didn't seem more obvious.
they're telling my parents they need to get a "caseworker" to see the car. It's their only car
What did they suggest in order to do this? This sounds like they understand this is a serious issue, but are you saying that this caseworker aspect has a cost you don't want or can't afford to pay? I'm not familiar with the term, but it sounds like an advanced diagnosis person, beyond their usual technicians. Which is the right response, if so.
My mom had the same problem with her old Jaguar
I'll bet it was the throttle position sensor. Mine used to do it randomly too - touch the pedal the right way and limp mode/shuts off. Drove me insane trying to diagnose it because restarting it (which was essential for safety as i was on the highway, usually) cleared the codes. Got it eventually, but that car drove me nuts.
posted by Brockles at 11:54 AM on March 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
So of course the dealer won't try to fix or pay for anything - ... It's their only car, they aren't rolling in dough, how is this OK?!?!
Just hold on there, and look at it dispassionately for a minute - a dealer gets a car arrive at their service area with a 'fault'. They are completely unable to replicate the fault. They can consequently neither prove the cause of the fault or even prove the existence of the fault itself.
Based on that - and ignoring your frustration for a second - what exactly do you expect them to *pay* for? What can they do if the problem doesn't occur? Without seeing the issue there is likely also zero evidence of or from the issue, so their hands are tied.
Customer fallibility is a major, major factor in car failures and while it may not be the problem here, if the dealer can't make the fault occur, they can't possibly start to diagnose it, so just get that perspective for a second. It is actually a perfectly reasonable position for them to hold. THIS is why - whenever people have an intermittent fault in Askme - I suggest that people pay extremely close attention to environmental, situational, temperature related, weather related issues for the fault. Intermittent faults are the bane of all mechanics everywhere and unless you can work out the consistent factor (is the car always cold, is it always raining, is it always as the car goes over a bump, is it always when you go full throttle after along period of coasting etc, etc) then replicating the fault is extremely hard. So with intermittent faults it is often not worth taking it to the mechanic unless you can *make* the problem occur, or at the very least learn a way to make it more likely to occur.
However this particular problem is dangerous (because, depending on what is meant by 'shuts off') the air bags may be disabled, and either way, the brakes are affected (they will still work, but ABS function could be non-functional) and certainly steering weight is considerably increased (the hydraulic pump stops running and so assistance is removed). So driving it until it does it more often is not a wise move.
First of all, we need to work out what 'shut off' means - does everything go dead? No dash lights? No sign of power? Or does the engine just stop and the dash lights up like a christmas tree with the oil warning lights, check engine etc all coming on like they do when you first turn the car on. Is the switch still in the 'run' position or has it turned off? What is happening each time that this occurs? Full throttle? Zero throttle? First thing when you drive the car, or only after a certain amount of time. Think through each incident and mark down EVERY aspect ("We'd been driving for x minutes, daytime no lights on, no cruise control, accelerating or at constant speed on the highway/street, the car was being used for the first time that day/just been restarted outside a store etc.", etc). Get everything down. Commonalities may be useful to diagnose or replicate.
All the obvious stuff- like spitbull suggests with the heavy key chain - needs to be eliminated. Take everything off the ignition key from now on. Immediately. If the dealer was given a single ignition key when you gave them the car (the spare key?) and they took their usual 10lb ring of other keys home with them, then this may be precisely why they couldn't replicate the issue or why it didn't seem more obvious.
they're telling my parents they need to get a "caseworker" to see the car. It's their only car
What did they suggest in order to do this? This sounds like they understand this is a serious issue, but are you saying that this caseworker aspect has a cost you don't want or can't afford to pay? I'm not familiar with the term, but it sounds like an advanced diagnosis person, beyond their usual technicians. Which is the right response, if so.
My mom had the same problem with her old Jaguar
I'll bet it was the throttle position sensor. Mine used to do it randomly too - touch the pedal the right way and limp mode/shuts off. Drove me insane trying to diagnose it because restarting it (which was essential for safety as i was on the highway, usually) cleared the codes. Got it eventually, but that car drove me nuts.
posted by Brockles at 11:54 AM on March 12, 2017 [2 favorites]
Brockles makes me realize I was too quick in insulting the dealer shop. Perhaps your parents should say "sure, get us a caseworker?" Perhaps that was a good faith effort to move the issue into a different priority level? It definitely happens that even very good shops can be stumped for lack of replicability or information and sometimes machines working as expected are subject to human error of which the operator may not be aware. Or a problem really is transient -- say you got one tank of bad gas, and the next one made the problem go away. Not likely here since the problem has recurred over time.
I'd be saying yep, sure, get us a caseworker on the horn.
posted by spitbull at 2:05 PM on March 12, 2017
I'd be saying yep, sure, get us a caseworker on the horn.
posted by spitbull at 2:05 PM on March 12, 2017
Get them to be as specific about the problem. When it 'quit' - did all the lights on the dash light up? Could it be easily restarted?
I've been through the same behavior and symptoms with a similar Chrysler product (same engine and transmission combo) and if you google "TIPM problems" you may see some commonalities....
There is a module called a Total Integrated Power Module - these are known to fail and cause the exact symptom. They're expensive.
There is a secondary module likely near the transmission which may be failing and causes the same symptom.
posted by Thistledown at 6:23 AM on March 14, 2017
I've been through the same behavior and symptoms with a similar Chrysler product (same engine and transmission combo) and if you google "TIPM problems" you may see some commonalities....
There is a module called a Total Integrated Power Module - these are known to fail and cause the exact symptom. They're expensive.
There is a secondary module likely near the transmission which may be failing and causes the same symptom.
posted by Thistledown at 6:23 AM on March 14, 2017
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I agree with the response above, google it, that's how I found the link above. Are your parents unwilling to be aggressive about this? I would be calling the owner of the dealership and demanding satisfaction. A car that dies suddenly is seriously dangerous.
posted by mareli at 2:57 PM on March 11, 2017 [1 favorite]