What do we look for on relocation reconaissance (Raleigh etc., NC)?
March 3, 2017 11:34 AM Subscribe
Friend and I are heading to the Triangle area of NC for 4 days, starting tomorrow, to check it out for a possible relocation.
Assume we are up on the statistics: crime, unemployment, median home prices and so forth.
We plan to check out the downtowns, a few of the sights, and some neighborhoods that look like they might suit us (mostly going on price/affordability as reported by the Internet). Used bookstores, meditation centers, parks/outdoorsy stuff, are also on our radar.
My question is 1) are there any areas or experiences that will give us a reasonable idea of the place in the day to day sense? 2) which neighborhoods are currently affordable, have decent schools, and are reasonably safe? And 3) what should we be looking for that can't be learned from statistics or Internet articles? Anything we just have to experience for ourselves?
We are visiting to find out if we could live there before we even begin applying for jobs, so of course we have no clear notion of where we would need to live, so assume we are interested in info on just about anywhere in the area. Clearly, we won't make a final decision this w/e, but definitely want a good sense of whether to pursue work in the area.
Assume we are up on the statistics: crime, unemployment, median home prices and so forth.
We plan to check out the downtowns, a few of the sights, and some neighborhoods that look like they might suit us (mostly going on price/affordability as reported by the Internet). Used bookstores, meditation centers, parks/outdoorsy stuff, are also on our radar.
My question is 1) are there any areas or experiences that will give us a reasonable idea of the place in the day to day sense? 2) which neighborhoods are currently affordable, have decent schools, and are reasonably safe? And 3) what should we be looking for that can't be learned from statistics or Internet articles? Anything we just have to experience for ourselves?
We are visiting to find out if we could live there before we even begin applying for jobs, so of course we have no clear notion of where we would need to live, so assume we are interested in info on just about anywhere in the area. Clearly, we won't make a final decision this w/e, but definitely want a good sense of whether to pursue work in the area.
Check out farmers markets--I feel like they always give a good sense of the community. I love the Carrboro farmers market the mostest <3
posted by greta simone at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2017
posted by greta simone at 12:56 PM on March 3, 2017
Best answer: Your experience may be different, but I find the city-data.com forums to be helpful. It's a good mix of mundane topics of interest to people who live there ("did you see that so-and-so is opening a new pizza place downtown?") and "where should I live?" questions. You will run into a lot of idiots and trolls, to be sure, but most areas have one or two posters who can give you suggestions with quite a bit of depth.
Honestly, as someone who is pretty tied to a particular place, I nonetheless believe that you *could* live pretty much anywhere. Every major metro area is going to have the same general amenities. There are going to be used bookstores, foodie restaurants, craft beers, and local bands in every city, even smaller metros. This is just a question for Yelp. Whether you choose to move to a particular place will depend in large part on you, not the place.
In my experience, there are three big things to look for: weather, traffic, and people, in no particular order. Weather, because that's what determines your day-to-day comfort. If you're moving from points north, the Triangle will probably be warmer than you're used to. A visit in March may not give you the best idea of what it's like.
Traffic, because that's how you'll get around. If the average commute is 30 minutes, that's a lot different than somewhere where it's 12 minutes. Your life will be structured differently. I'm including public transportation (if you don't have a car) and parking (if you do) in this category as well. You can get a sense of this before you go by reading/listening to traffic reports in local media, but being there gives you a sense of what it's actually like.
People, to me, are what makes or breaks a city. I lived in St. Louis for a bit, and when I visited and the first weeks I was there, I thought it was great. Beautiful architecture, history, local businesses... Then I had to talk to people, and I hated it. The people are just dicks. That's important to know, because these are the people who are going to be hiring you, working with you, possibly being your clients or vendors. Talk to as many people as you can while you're there. And not about touristy stuff like "do you like it here?" With apologies to Italo Calvino, there are only two kinds of cities: ones where people tell you it's great, and ones where people tell you it sucks. Neither answer actually tells you much about the city itself. Instead, ask concrete questions. "How did you find your job?" "Did you meet most of your friends at work? Through school?" "Where do people who like ____ hang out?" Ask for referrals to other people - that's a sure fire way to tell whether people are friendly or not. If someone says "____ is a great neighborhood; my friend just opened an art gallery/brewery/show store there", ask them to introduce you to the friend. If they hesitate, or won't do it, it's probably a cliquish city and you won't like it. (You can also tell this a bit from the city-data forums.)
Sorry, gotta terminate this answer; screaming infant.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:10 PM on March 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Honestly, as someone who is pretty tied to a particular place, I nonetheless believe that you *could* live pretty much anywhere. Every major metro area is going to have the same general amenities. There are going to be used bookstores, foodie restaurants, craft beers, and local bands in every city, even smaller metros. This is just a question for Yelp. Whether you choose to move to a particular place will depend in large part on you, not the place.
In my experience, there are three big things to look for: weather, traffic, and people, in no particular order. Weather, because that's what determines your day-to-day comfort. If you're moving from points north, the Triangle will probably be warmer than you're used to. A visit in March may not give you the best idea of what it's like.
Traffic, because that's how you'll get around. If the average commute is 30 minutes, that's a lot different than somewhere where it's 12 minutes. Your life will be structured differently. I'm including public transportation (if you don't have a car) and parking (if you do) in this category as well. You can get a sense of this before you go by reading/listening to traffic reports in local media, but being there gives you a sense of what it's actually like.
People, to me, are what makes or breaks a city. I lived in St. Louis for a bit, and when I visited and the first weeks I was there, I thought it was great. Beautiful architecture, history, local businesses... Then I had to talk to people, and I hated it. The people are just dicks. That's important to know, because these are the people who are going to be hiring you, working with you, possibly being your clients or vendors. Talk to as many people as you can while you're there. And not about touristy stuff like "do you like it here?" With apologies to Italo Calvino, there are only two kinds of cities: ones where people tell you it's great, and ones where people tell you it sucks. Neither answer actually tells you much about the city itself. Instead, ask concrete questions. "How did you find your job?" "Did you meet most of your friends at work? Through school?" "Where do people who like ____ hang out?" Ask for referrals to other people - that's a sure fire way to tell whether people are friendly or not. If someone says "____ is a great neighborhood; my friend just opened an art gallery/brewery/show store there", ask them to introduce you to the friend. If they hesitate, or won't do it, it's probably a cliquish city and you won't like it. (You can also tell this a bit from the city-data forums.)
Sorry, gotta terminate this answer; screaming infant.
posted by kevinbelt at 1:10 PM on March 3, 2017 [5 favorites]
Best answer: 1) are there any areas or experiences that will give us a reasonable idea of the place in the day to day sense?
Experience-wise, definitely simulate a commute. The Triangle manages to be both sprawly and filled in (courtesy of places like Cary and Apex) but your tolerance of chugging along in bad traffic will bracket where you live and work.
posted by holgate at 3:36 PM on March 3, 2017
Experience-wise, definitely simulate a commute. The Triangle manages to be both sprawly and filled in (courtesy of places like Cary and Apex) but your tolerance of chugging along in bad traffic will bracket where you live and work.
posted by holgate at 3:36 PM on March 3, 2017
Best answer: Go grocery shopping. Plan to make grocery shopping and touring grocery stores a part of the trip. Do not just live on fast food and restaurant meals (unless you live that way normally and never set foot in a grocery store back home).
I was a military wife and we moved a fair amount. Every single move had a noticeable impact on how we ate due largely to what was readily available at whichever grocery store I shopped at the most. In Kansas, I began getting cheap and awesome Asian takeout regularly as part of my grocery store runs because they had hot Asian cuisine available in store from their deli area. In Washington state, my sons volunteered to learn how to shuck corn and I stopped buying frozen corn on the cob because amazing fresh local produce was readily available year round. It was wonderful.
Check and make sure they have the kind of food you eat. Growing up in Columbus, GA, every butcher in every grocery store knows how to cut meat for German roulade and you can often find it pre-cut and sitting in the fresh meat section. I did not know what part of the cow this came from and was completely flummoxed when I wanted to make roulade in Washington and the butcher had no idea what that was or how to cut meat for it. I had to pick out meat that I thought would work and explain to him how I wanted it cut.
I had just absolutely no idea that this would be a weird request. It is completely normal and readily available in my hometown, but is not equally available in every single grocery store in the U.S. You apparently need a substantial sub-population of German immigrants who cook authentic German food for this to be readily available and I just had no idea.
posted by Michele in California at 4:29 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was a military wife and we moved a fair amount. Every single move had a noticeable impact on how we ate due largely to what was readily available at whichever grocery store I shopped at the most. In Kansas, I began getting cheap and awesome Asian takeout regularly as part of my grocery store runs because they had hot Asian cuisine available in store from their deli area. In Washington state, my sons volunteered to learn how to shuck corn and I stopped buying frozen corn on the cob because amazing fresh local produce was readily available year round. It was wonderful.
Check and make sure they have the kind of food you eat. Growing up in Columbus, GA, every butcher in every grocery store knows how to cut meat for German roulade and you can often find it pre-cut and sitting in the fresh meat section. I did not know what part of the cow this came from and was completely flummoxed when I wanted to make roulade in Washington and the butcher had no idea what that was or how to cut meat for it. I had to pick out meat that I thought would work and explain to him how I wanted it cut.
I had just absolutely no idea that this would be a weird request. It is completely normal and readily available in my hometown, but is not equally available in every single grocery store in the U.S. You apparently need a substantial sub-population of German immigrants who cook authentic German food for this to be readily available and I just had no idea.
posted by Michele in California at 4:29 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Whatever else you consider, don't plan on any job near the RTP that involves 'rush hour' commuting. (Unless you like quality time travelling at 2 mph in your vehicle for a loooong time.) And the buses are just a wee bit faster.
posted by mightshould at 4:35 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mightshould at 4:35 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
With all due respect to the other commenters, I do not think a farmers market or an alt-weekly will give you a very good idea of a place. Farmers markets, because everyone is nice at farmers markets! You want a complete picture of the city, and a nice grass-fed dairy person is only going to show you the positives. The suggestion of going grocery shopping is more useful.
Alt-weeklies are tricky because, on the one hand, they're the best way to learn about the social scene in a given town, what you soon realize is that they're kind of the same from town to town. (Sometimes literally; the papers in Phoenix, St. Louis, Miami, and a few other cities are owned by the same parent company.) But what I mean is, no matter which town you're in, there's going to be an indie folk band playing at a bar near campus on Tuesday, the art house theatre on the north side is showing Rocky Horror on Saturday, and there's a new Japanese fusion restaurant opening downtown next week. There's no city in America, no matter how small, where the events calendar is a lot of blank space with "Hog Auction Saturday 3pm" as the only listing. Everybody likes to think their town is unique, but that's often not the case. The difference is the talent of the indie folk band or the niceness of the art house theatre. For one thing, the alt-weekly won't tell you that. And for another, that will have very little impact on your day-to-day life. Reading the Goings On About Town at the front of the New Yorker does not give you the slightest idea of what it's like to live in Manhattan.
Also, most alt-weeklies publish their events calendars online, so you can view them without having to visit. ;)
posted by kevinbelt at 6:05 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Alt-weeklies are tricky because, on the one hand, they're the best way to learn about the social scene in a given town, what you soon realize is that they're kind of the same from town to town. (Sometimes literally; the papers in Phoenix, St. Louis, Miami, and a few other cities are owned by the same parent company.) But what I mean is, no matter which town you're in, there's going to be an indie folk band playing at a bar near campus on Tuesday, the art house theatre on the north side is showing Rocky Horror on Saturday, and there's a new Japanese fusion restaurant opening downtown next week. There's no city in America, no matter how small, where the events calendar is a lot of blank space with "Hog Auction Saturday 3pm" as the only listing. Everybody likes to think their town is unique, but that's often not the case. The difference is the talent of the indie folk band or the niceness of the art house theatre. For one thing, the alt-weekly won't tell you that. And for another, that will have very little impact on your day-to-day life. Reading the Goings On About Town at the front of the New Yorker does not give you the slightest idea of what it's like to live in Manhattan.
Also, most alt-weeklies publish their events calendars online, so you can view them without having to visit. ;)
posted by kevinbelt at 6:05 PM on March 3, 2017 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It would be helpful to have a little more information about your situation:
Job - where? Do you mind driving? people talk about the traffic in this area. There is a rush HOUR. Traffic last an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. Depending on where you need to go, you may not have stop and go traffic at all. But, to do anything in the area, you are going to have to drive.
Parks - Umstead State park - lots of trails, The NC Museum of Art is very nice, and has amazing grounds around it. Pullen Park has a carousel and a train - close to downtown Raleigh. We are 2 hours from the beach, and 3-4 from the Mountains.
Schools - kids ages? Wake County schools are very good (this is what I am familiar with). There are several good private schools also - Cary Academy, Ravenscroft, St Michaels, Durham Academy.
Nightlife - Downtown Raleigh has really grown over the last 10 years. Durham is about 5 years behind but growing . Chapel Hill is a College town - with attitude. If you are in town on Saturday evening, all local bars will have the Duke/Carolina game on - it is typically an experience if you like basketball. Cary and Apex are suburbia (Cary= Containment Area for Relocated Yankees - I live in Cary)
posted by bonofasitch at 7:03 PM on March 3, 2017
Job - where? Do you mind driving? people talk about the traffic in this area. There is a rush HOUR. Traffic last an hour in the morning and an hour in the evening. Depending on where you need to go, you may not have stop and go traffic at all. But, to do anything in the area, you are going to have to drive.
Parks - Umstead State park - lots of trails, The NC Museum of Art is very nice, and has amazing grounds around it. Pullen Park has a carousel and a train - close to downtown Raleigh. We are 2 hours from the beach, and 3-4 from the Mountains.
Schools - kids ages? Wake County schools are very good (this is what I am familiar with). There are several good private schools also - Cary Academy, Ravenscroft, St Michaels, Durham Academy.
Nightlife - Downtown Raleigh has really grown over the last 10 years. Durham is about 5 years behind but growing . Chapel Hill is a College town - with attitude. If you are in town on Saturday evening, all local bars will have the Duke/Carolina game on - it is typically an experience if you like basketball. Cary and Apex are suburbia (Cary= Containment Area for Relocated Yankees - I live in Cary)
posted by bonofasitch at 7:03 PM on March 3, 2017
*waves at bonofasitch*
Hi there, I am a Wake County native (currently living in Cary). As others have noted, your question is difficult to answer without some sense of where you might work and what sort of lifestyle you have (kids, pets, dual income household, rent vs buy a home, etc.). As a lifelong resident I can tell you that the best advice on the thread is to try and simulate a commute. This area has grown a LOT in the past decade-hell, in the past five years-and frankly local traffic is suffering due to our roads' carrying capacity being long since outstripped. Public transport is spotty at best outside of downtown Raleigh.
If you're planning to work in downtown Raleigh you might be able to live downtown, which eases the time suck of commuting. Downtown Raleigh also offers proximity to terrific restaurants (Garland, Sitti, Poole's, Bida Manda, Buku, too many others to name), bars with live music (Kings, Lincoln Theater, Slim's), the local convention center (various annual cons including Animazement, if you're into anime), and you're only a couple of miles from several first-ring neighborhoods that have their own central business districts (Cameron Village, North Hills, Five Points). Outdoor recreation in Wake County is plentiful-check out Umstead Park, Hemlock Bluffs, and Pullen Park.
"Affordability" is in the eye of the beholder, so again-knowing more about your budget would help give a better answer. Most affordable housing is actually outside Raleigh-Garner and Knightdale in particular. Lots of folks moving east to Johnston County, which gets you even more home and land for your buck-but adds significantly to your daily commute time. I can't stand sitting in stop and go traffic for 45 minutes but I realize this might seem laughably easy if you're coming from the northeast.
You mention schools and generally Wake County schools are very good. One thing to be aware of if you have more than one kid is that some elementary and middle schools operate on a traditional calendar and some are year-round, with varying breaks throughout the year. This makes family vacation planning a bit tricky if you have kids in two different schools with two different calendars.
Also: barbecue is like a religion here. There are two predominant styles, eastern and western. You want to declare for one or the other early in the game. The correct allegiance is to eastern style. It is known.
posted by little mouth at 6:20 AM on March 4, 2017
Hi there, I am a Wake County native (currently living in Cary). As others have noted, your question is difficult to answer without some sense of where you might work and what sort of lifestyle you have (kids, pets, dual income household, rent vs buy a home, etc.). As a lifelong resident I can tell you that the best advice on the thread is to try and simulate a commute. This area has grown a LOT in the past decade-hell, in the past five years-and frankly local traffic is suffering due to our roads' carrying capacity being long since outstripped. Public transport is spotty at best outside of downtown Raleigh.
If you're planning to work in downtown Raleigh you might be able to live downtown, which eases the time suck of commuting. Downtown Raleigh also offers proximity to terrific restaurants (Garland, Sitti, Poole's, Bida Manda, Buku, too many others to name), bars with live music (Kings, Lincoln Theater, Slim's), the local convention center (various annual cons including Animazement, if you're into anime), and you're only a couple of miles from several first-ring neighborhoods that have their own central business districts (Cameron Village, North Hills, Five Points). Outdoor recreation in Wake County is plentiful-check out Umstead Park, Hemlock Bluffs, and Pullen Park.
"Affordability" is in the eye of the beholder, so again-knowing more about your budget would help give a better answer. Most affordable housing is actually outside Raleigh-Garner and Knightdale in particular. Lots of folks moving east to Johnston County, which gets you even more home and land for your buck-but adds significantly to your daily commute time. I can't stand sitting in stop and go traffic for 45 minutes but I realize this might seem laughably easy if you're coming from the northeast.
You mention schools and generally Wake County schools are very good. One thing to be aware of if you have more than one kid is that some elementary and middle schools operate on a traditional calendar and some are year-round, with varying breaks throughout the year. This makes family vacation planning a bit tricky if you have kids in two different schools with two different calendars.
Also: barbecue is like a religion here. There are two predominant styles, eastern and western. You want to declare for one or the other early in the game. The correct allegiance is to eastern style. It is known.
posted by little mouth at 6:20 AM on March 4, 2017
Response by poster: A few clarifications: we are looking at jobs in the entire area, we will go where the work is.
A long commute is okay, since we're used to that, living in a semi-rural area where everywhere else is at least a 25 minute drive. Stop & go traffic the whole time is not something we want to deal with, but would try to plan around that when we know more about work location etc.
Kids: My friend is going to adopt one or more children in the next year (most likely). She is considering children roughly from middle school through junior high in age.
Between us we have four cats and a dog.
We plan to rent for the first year. In terms of house prices, say, up to $150,000. If it's not clear from my question, we want to look at neighborhoods to get a general idea of what's out there, and would definitely take time to get to know areas more thoroughly before any serious house shopping.
If it matters, we are planning on renting together to start, unlesss we get work in wildly different areas, and after that, my friend would almost certainly be looking to buy, while I am a bit more of a nomad, so single income as far as house buying goes.
Already planning on checking out grocery stores. I always do when I'm traveling, they can tell you so much about a place. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Thanks for all the detailed answers folks. I really appreciate it.
posted by Archipelago at 7:36 AM on March 4, 2017
A long commute is okay, since we're used to that, living in a semi-rural area where everywhere else is at least a 25 minute drive. Stop & go traffic the whole time is not something we want to deal with, but would try to plan around that when we know more about work location etc.
Kids: My friend is going to adopt one or more children in the next year (most likely). She is considering children roughly from middle school through junior high in age.
Between us we have four cats and a dog.
We plan to rent for the first year. In terms of house prices, say, up to $150,000. If it's not clear from my question, we want to look at neighborhoods to get a general idea of what's out there, and would definitely take time to get to know areas more thoroughly before any serious house shopping.
If it matters, we are planning on renting together to start, unlesss we get work in wildly different areas, and after that, my friend would almost certainly be looking to buy, while I am a bit more of a nomad, so single income as far as house buying goes.
Already planning on checking out grocery stores. I always do when I'm traveling, they can tell you so much about a place. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
Thanks for all the detailed answers folks. I really appreciate it.
posted by Archipelago at 7:36 AM on March 4, 2017
$150k is not going to buy much house in the Triangle. Durham has the lowest real estate prices of the urban areas (broadly speaking, since there are always outliers in every area) but that still means prices are starting in the high-100s and low-200s for a house with three bedrooms or more, no garage, and usually get competing offers over list price on the day of listing. Older townhouses will be a little cheaper. Newly-built townhouses are about the same price as larger, older single-family houses. Aiming for one of the higher-ranked school districts, in Cary for example, means doubling those numbers, at a minimum.
Renting houses in Cary is roughly on par with renting in Durham, weirdly enough. Raleigh and Apex have neighborhoods with prices at either the Cary and Durham ends of the price curve. If you're willing to live in the far exurban areas, of course it will be cheaper, but look for a longer commute that's more easily jeopardized by traffic conditions and weather. As with all things, this depends a great deal on what you're looking for, because the Triangle is a pretty large, diverse area.
A commute from urban Durham to downtown Raleigh will be in the 40-70 minute range during rush hour (20-40 minutes other times), depending where in Durham you are and where in Raleigh you have to park. As much as people complain about rush hour here, it honestly isn't as bad as rush hours I've dealt with in Detroit, Boston, and DC.
When we were house hunting I compared estimated commute times for the neighborhoods we were considering by getting directions on Google Maps from each neighborhood to my office and clicking the 'Leave Now' option to pick weekday rush hour times. A spreadsheet of these made it easy to identify areas we should be looking at or ruling out.
posted by ardgedee at 2:50 PM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
Renting houses in Cary is roughly on par with renting in Durham, weirdly enough. Raleigh and Apex have neighborhoods with prices at either the Cary and Durham ends of the price curve. If you're willing to live in the far exurban areas, of course it will be cheaper, but look for a longer commute that's more easily jeopardized by traffic conditions and weather. As with all things, this depends a great deal on what you're looking for, because the Triangle is a pretty large, diverse area.
A commute from urban Durham to downtown Raleigh will be in the 40-70 minute range during rush hour (20-40 minutes other times), depending where in Durham you are and where in Raleigh you have to park. As much as people complain about rush hour here, it honestly isn't as bad as rush hours I've dealt with in Detroit, Boston, and DC.
When we were house hunting I compared estimated commute times for the neighborhoods we were considering by getting directions on Google Maps from each neighborhood to my office and clicking the 'Leave Now' option to pick weekday rush hour times. A spreadsheet of these made it easy to identify areas we should be looking at or ruling out.
posted by ardgedee at 2:50 PM on March 4, 2017 [1 favorite]
The thing with the triangle especially if you're coming from a big city is that it feels as if someone took a midsized metropolis, chopped it into quarters, and moved them all 15 miles away. Chapel Hill, Durham and Raleigh each feel like mini versions of bigger towns, and each are surrounded by a never ending suburban hellscape of faux-country mcmansions, dilapidated farmsteads and strip malls. Even in the downtown cores (especially Raleigh) much of the surrounding historic architecture was razed in the 60s and 70s and replaced with weird out of place institutions, like the enormous prison a few blocks from the downtown office towers. I'm from Seattle and I often think that the triangle has all the downsides (traffic, crime, urban blight, sprawl) and none of the benefits (density, public transit, walkability) of a big city. There's a lot to recommend living here but it's definitely sprawl-y, car dependent, and more cookie-cutter than you'd expect from the reputation.
posted by azuresunday at 10:13 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by azuresunday at 10:13 PM on March 4, 2017 [2 favorites]
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