Comments on: England/UK

Question: England/UK

jimmy — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:08:26 -0800

According to Wikipedia, both the United Kingdom and England are countries. How can this be?

By: essexjan

essexjan — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:22:15 -0800

It's a common misconception across the pond that 'England' is the same thing as 'Britain' or 'the UK'. Any Scotsman will tell you otherwise!

By: wackybrit

wackybrit — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:29:14 -0800

It explains in the Wikipedia article that England, Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are 'constituent countries'.. that is, countries forming a country. There's also info on that page about how they all relate to each other.

By: wackybrit

wackybrit — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:30:24 -0800

A parallel would be the United Arab Emirates, where each emirate is considered to be somewhat like a 'nation' (although the word 'country' probably isn't used) but they form a country together too.

By: sic

sic — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:32:13 -0800

Another example is Spain; both the Basque Country and Catalonia are considered historically "nations". Currently the Catalans are fighting to have their new "Estatuto" (similar to a Constitution) proclaim that they are indeed a nation, within the Spanish State.

By: mikel

mikel — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:51:26 -0800

"Country" isn't really a term describing a political or other unit either - it is quite vague.

In the Political literature you'll find very little discussion of "countries", however you'll find a lot of discussion about "states" (political units) and "nations" (social/historical units sometimes - but not nearly as much as is often assumed - congruent with states).

The United Kingdom is a state. Scotland is a nation, and this particular nation does find some expression within the UK state. Both are countries because the term "country" is imprecise.

By: Happy Dave

Happy Dave — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 04:56:31 -0800

The UK is a state within the international system. Technically speaking, Scotland, Wales, England and Northern Ireland are administrative areas of this state, but they are also distinct nations (in terms of the people who live there, heritage and history) and also have degrees of autonomy. Wales is actually technically a principality (hence the Prince of Wales) as it was conquered, while Scotland and England were joined by Act of Union. As noted above, country is a very imprecise term. Plus, Scots and Welsh generally consider themselves Scots/Welsh first, British second and European a distant third.

By: jellicle

jellicle — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 05:01:56 -0800

England is not a member of the UN, does not self-govern, does not have its own currency, does not have independent relations with other nations: it is not a country or a nation as those terms are commonly used.

By: smackfu

smackfu — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:22:46 -0800

People in the UK call Scotland, Wales and England countries. This may not agree with what the rest of the world does, but it's what they do and it's not something you can argue away.

(You also will not convince them that they play soccer or that aluminium only has one 'i'.)

By: carter

carter — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:50:07 -0800

Short answer - as Happy Dave and smackfu suggest - is that the Welsh, etc., do believe themselves to be living in different countries - it's just that their definition of what a 'country' is local, specific and historical, and does not conform with modern definitions of 'country' which equate country with 'nation state.'

They *used* to be separate countries, before they were invaded and unified by the English. Wales, Scotland, and Ireland had their own languages, rulers, flags, traditions (although note: much of what is presently claimed as 'celtic history' - harps, druids, tartan, folk music, etc. - is a concoction of 17th and 18th century romantics). At the point at which they were separate countries, however, modern definitions of 'nation,' 'state,' and 'country,' did not exist. Nevertheless, after centuries they still retain their own individual identities, including language. etc. One of the great political debates in the UK towards the end of the 20th century was that regarding the 'devolution' - local self-rule - and Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland now have, or will have, with varying degrees of success, their own parliaments.

FYI:
Great Britain: England, Scotland, Wales.
United Kingdom: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland.
British Isles: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland.

By: carter

carter — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 06:51:59 -0800

P.S. - Wikipedia notes that Great Britain, United Kingdom, and British Isles are often inaccurately used as synonyms for each other. UK is the state - my passport is issued by the UK.

By: macdara

macdara — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:00:59 -0800

British Isles: England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, Republic of Ireland.

Some people in Ireland would disagree; to them, it's the Celtic Isles.

By: Chunder

Chunder — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:01:23 -0800

@carter - Oi! You missed the Isle of Man off your list of the constituents of the British Isles... ;-)

By: carter

carter — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:02:27 -0800

See what I mean, jimmy ... ;)

By: carter

carter — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:07:43 -0800

Re. Chunder's point - the Isle of Man has the oldest parliament of them all - The Tynwald - and it wsn't until I had googled this that I realised that the Isle of Man has its own top level domain - .im - which is pretty neat.

By: biffa

biffa — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:11:27 -0800

carter points out that his passport is from the UK, further investigation will reveal it is actually issued for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

By: jimmy

jimmy — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:31:33 -0800

Wow, OK. Your explanations help a lot. Thanks, guys.

By: languagehat

languagehat — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 07:32:50 -0800

wackybrit: Thanks for that Wikipedia link; it explains something I'd been wondering about for years, ever since (while editing a book on doing business in the UK) I spent some time on the phone with someone from the consulate trying to pin down exactly what Northern Ireland was.

The fourth part of the UK — Northern Ireland — is considered to be neither a country nor a nation in its own right, but rather a part of a nation or a country or a state (which nation or country or state depends on political standpoint). Officially Northern Ireland is a province of the United Kingdom, but usage of the word 'province' may cause offence to supporters of a united Ireland...

No wonder I couldn't get a straight answer!

carter points out that his passport is from the UK, further investigation will reveal it is actually issued for the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Um, isn't that what UK stands for?

By: ascullion

ascullion — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:04:04 -0800

Plus, Scots and Welsh generally consider themselves Scots/Welsh first, British second and European a distant third.

I think you'll find there's quite a few Scots who would say they were European second, and British a distant third.

Officially Northern Ireland is a province of the United Kingdom, but usage of the word 'province' may cause offence to supporters of a united Ireland...

Not quite true.. the reason that NI is referred to as a province is that it is two thirds of the ancient Irish province of Ulster (of which the other three are Munster (included Cork and Limerick), Leinster (contains Dublin) and Connacht (contains Galway).

trying to pin down exactly what Northern Ireland was.

Being from Northern Ireland, I call tell you that what it is is an anachronism. And possibly the most undemocratically governed part of Europe, given that it has no regional assembly and its inhabitants have no ability to vote for the ruling parties. Which makes me laugh even harder when Blair talks about taking democracy to the Iraqis.

Anyway, back to the original point. For what it's worth, the comments above who talk about 'country' being a vague term are right. The BBC, if your interested, talked about broadcasting to the 'nations and regions'. Nations being Scotland/Wales/NI, Regions being various collections of bits of England.

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:18:03 -0800

does not have its own currency

Yes it does. The clue is that it is issued by the Bank of England. Scotland, NI, Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man and possible others all issue their own currency.

By: peacay

peacay — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:21:52 -0800

And Great Britain compete at the Olympics yet England, Scotland etc compete at the World Cup. You guys are crazy.

By: ninebelow

ninebelow — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 08:27:18 -0800

Which is why Great Britain don't field a football team at the Olympics. Though they might in 2012.

By: holgate

holgate — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:16:58 -0800

In a rough sense, 'England' is to 'The United Kingdom' what 'Holland' is to 'The Netherlands'. (The territory now known as 'Benelux' was, indeed, the 'United Provinces' for two centuries.)

By: klarck

klarck — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:17:51 -0800

Maybe a Venn diagram can clear things up.

By: macdara

macdara — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:22:21 -0800

And Great Britain compete at the Olympics yet England, Scotland etc compete at the World Cup. You guys are crazy.

When the late Tony Banks became Minister for Sport in Britain a few years ago, I remember him causing a furore when he suggested that Britain's four international football sides should merge to form a team for Great Britain.

Though he was laughed out of the place at the time for his supposed ignorance, at least I could see where he was coming from. I mean, just look at other sports in these islands; there's Ireland's international rugby union side, for one, which technically represents two countries! It's all very confusing.

By: grouse

grouse — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:25:48 -0800

Scotland, NI, Jersey, Guernsey, the Isle of Man and possible others all issue their own currency.

Scotland and Northern Ireland do not issue their own currency. Instead, Scottish and Northern Irish banknotes are issued by commercial banks and backed by Bank of England currency. Almost everyone accepts them in Scotland and N.I., and some people will accept them in England, but they are not legal tender anywhere. In fact, it's interesting to note that no currently circulating banknotes are legal tender in Scotland and Northern Ireland. In Scotland the only legal tender consists of British coins.

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 09:55:31 -0800

Scotland etc compete at the World Cup

i remember living in edingurgh and hearing the cheers from pubs when someone scored against england - that's when i stopped calling myself british and started identifying as english. until then, i'd naively assumed that scots would support england just as i supported scotland (unless england and scotland were playing each other, obviously).

as ascullion says, i'm now english first, european (or chilean, these days) second, and british a poor third.

By: peacay

peacay — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:31:35 -0800

I wouldn't take it too much to heart andrew cooke. New Zealanders have t-shirts with "I support NZ and anyone playing Australia". We may be specifically separate countries but the antipodean location means we are more closely aligned than not (but sport is different!).

By: rocket88

rocket88 — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 10:43:57 -0800

carter - They *used* to be separate countries, before they were invaded and unified by the English.

Scotland and England were not unified by invasion by the English.

By: Lanark

Lanark — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 11:49:30 -0800

The Isle of Man is now a crown dependency outside the United Kingdom.

Rockall was annexed by the United Kingdom in 1972 and made part of Scotland.

Legal Tender definition The term does not refer to the money itself.

The Act of Union 1707 to dissolve both parliaments. In the Scottish case, the purpose was partly to use English subsidies to recover from the financial problems caused by the failure of the Darién scheme

By: grouse

grouse — Tue, 10 Jan 2006 12:34:17 -0800

Legal Tender definition The term does not refer to the money itself.

Lanark: I don't think you understand what that means.

By: jb

jb — Sun, 15 Jan 2006 15:40:24 -0800

Not only did England not invade Scotland to form the union (they had invaded centuries earlier, but were repelled again), but it was the Scottish royal family, the Stuarts, who inherited the English throne from the childless Elizabeth. James VI of Scotland and the I of England brought with him many Scottish nobles who became important in the government.

The Welsh union was similarly mutual; Wales had been conquered in the middle ages, but Henry Tudor (aka Henry VII) was seen by them as a Welshman, even the fufilment of bardic prophecy. The union of Wales with England was welcomed by most Welsh elites as a way to undermine the Marcher Lordships (the authorities in Wales previously) and to make the Welsh counties more equal with English counties.

By: Chunder

Chunder — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 03:03:58 -0800

@klarck - useful diagram! I've not seen a Venn diagram used since GCSE maths... I never thought that they'd ever be used in the "real world"! :-)

@ninebelow/grouse - Manx currency, although tied to Sterling, is not officially sterling; it does not show the Queen on it, and it does not mention the word "Sterling" anywhere. Scottish is legal tender anywhere in the UK, Manx isn't. PITA.

By: holgate

holgate — Mon, 16 Jan 2006 07:05:42 -0800

Not only did England not invade Scotland to form the union (they had invaded centuries earlier, but were repelled again), but it was the Scottish royal family, the Stuarts, who inherited the English throne from the childless Elizabeth.

Um, there's a reason why James I and VI was called 'James I and VI'. The Act of Union didn't happen for another century.

By: grouse

grouse — Tue, 17 Jan 2006 05:34:51 -0800

Chunder: Scottish banknotes can usually be used anywhere in the UK. It is not, however, legal tender anywhere in the UK. Including Scotland. Legal tender means that something is required to be accepted in payment of a debt, not that it can be exchanged readily for goods or services.

By: plep

plep — Wed, 18 Jan 2006 03:02:34 -0800

England is not a member of the UN

Like Taiwan, or Switzerland until 2002.

...does not self-govern...

Like Puerto Rico or Greenland.

...does not have its own currency...

Like member states of the euro (e.g. France and Germany) or members states of the CFA franc (e.g. Cameroon, Chad).

...does not have independent relations with other nations...

Again like Greenland, or indigenous nations in North America and elsewhere.

'Country' and 'nation' are vague terms, but a comparison that might be closer to home for North American readers are the Native American nations, which see themselves as nations within a larger nation (e.g. the Chickasaw Nation, part of the larger nation of United States).

My opinion :- a country is a country if for whatever reason people feel it to be that way. Nationalism is all about emotion and sentiment, not logic.