Motorcycle vs Scooter

January 9, 2006 4:36 PM

Two wheeled high-mpg around-town/commuter options for year-round use in Seattle: motorcycle, or scooter?

After reading this thread, I'm pretty sure that I will eventually want either an SV650 or a KLR650, but that's a year or two off. For now, I'm interested in something small, with good mileage, that I can use for trips to the library and grocery store and such. Once I'm comfortable with it, it would be nice if it could handle a passenger, too. I'm not particularly interested in being able to go 120mph, although being able to use the freeway occasionally would be handy. I'm looking specifically at the Suzuki GZ250 and the Kymco People 250, with the advantage of the GZ250 mainly being that I can find them used for half the price of the Kymco.

My motorcycle-riding friends divide fairly evenly into two factions: 1) Anything under 500cc, and I'm better off buying a scooter anyway, so either get a scooter or jump straight to an SV650. 2) 250cc makes a good first bike; they're cheap and repairable, and I won't care too much when I inevitably lay it down.

I'm sick of driving my ailing and low-mpg station wagon to get groceries that would fit in a messenger bag or saddlebag. I'd just stick to my bicycle, which I already use year-round for commuting to work, but that precludes the possibility of giving my non-driving wife a ride to and from the occasional appointment, which is the other thing the car gets used for. So I'm hoping any Seattle (or Seattle-weather-alike) MeFi readers can give me some advice. Does a scooter handle any better or worse than a standard motorcycle in the rain, for example?

Or should I just bag the idea and start saving up for a Prius? (Or, more sensibly, an Echo.)

posted by hades to travel & transportation (31 comments total)

Hi fellow Seattle motorcyclist!

Unless you're also going to take the bike out of town frequently (i.e. someplace where you'll need the power at high speeds, lots of highway riding, etc.) anything over 350cc is IMHO too much. I've driven everything from scooters to light bikes to racing bikes to hogs and for getting around quickly in the tight, SUV-infested Seattle streets, the low cc street bikes are your best friend.

With the hills and angle stops you'll be doing, a light bike is indispensible. Large bikes have too much weight for the constant starting & stopping, and scooters don't even compare, unless you're literally only travelling a couple of blocks.

You'll have to drop some $$ on foul weather gear - spend more for light-weight, good quality stuff and you won't be sorry! Also, use Rain-X or some similar product on your helmet's face shield for a clear view in nasty weather.

I love the look of that GZ250. Good luck!
posted by Aquaman at 5:06 PM on January 9, 2006

I made a similar decision for Los Angeles travel rather than Seattle, and many of my friends suggested I go with the SV650 or the FZ6, but let me throw in my support for the bike I eventually purchased, the Kawasaki EX500 (AKA Ninja 500R). The engines are known to run forEVER, the design hasn't changed in a long time, which is good for available parts, body of knowledge, and community support. This month I've averaged 46 mpg with semi-stupid driving habits, and I'm sure scooter-like manners would bring it above 50. Its powerband doesn't really kick in until 4 or 5K RPM, which makes it very easy for a novice to ride, and mostly keeps you out of trouble. However, it's big enough that if you really want to get in trouble, you're set - just rev it up to 7K and pop the clutch. If you are slight of frame, the EX250 is the same bike with half the engine - a petite female friend of mine just purchased one and is loving it.
posted by thedaniel at 5:07 PM on January 9, 2006

P.S. Scooters are terrible in wet conditions (handling-wise that is; some of them have great windscreens, so you may want to take that into consideration. You can get the same on a street bike, but it will be an expensive addition...)
posted by Aquaman at 5:08 PM on January 9, 2006

Do you want the scooter/bike because you're already going to get it (for fun) and just want it to meet both purposes? Or is the reasoning almost solely to save money on gas and dump the station wagon?

If you are strictly concerned with money/transportation, have you considered flexcar? It's about $10/hour to rent a car (in half-hour increments). You could dump the station-wagon, keep using the bicycle to get groceries, and still be able to take your wife to appointments. Of course, the feasibility of flexcar depends on where you live, where the appointments are, and the frequency of appointments.

I live in downtown Seattle and bus to work. I try to make all my appointments within walking distance or close to bus lines, but when I need a car, I either take a flexcar if it's a 30min - 1.5 hour trip, or go to Avis and rent a car for a day ($19-40/day) if it's more than a few hours. My flexcar bill averages $35, I can go pretty much anywere I like (Avis even lets you drive to Canada) and I save a ton of money by not having to pay for tags, gas, parking, insurance, maintenance, etc. But I sort of planned my living arrangements around not needing a car (choosing an apartment downtown, close to bus lines, etc), so it may not work as well for you.
posted by helios at 5:15 PM on January 9, 2006

Personally, I'd bag the idea, unless you were planning on keeping the car for other things (in which case, why not just use your bike?). Get an early 90s geo metro. If its in good shape it should put you upper 40s, low 50s for around town, better for freeway.

I was going to bring up a couple of safety things with the Geo, but seeing as how you were thinking about riding a 250cc bike on the freeway, I don't think you're too concerned about that.
posted by devilsbrigade at 5:17 PM on January 9, 2006

I would favour a low end bike (ie. 250cc) over a scooter. Especially if your looking at the tiny 50cc models. I find they start to become a problem in traffic when cars start doing stupid things to get around you because they feel you are going too slow.

The other thing that you want to think really carefully about before buying a bike, is that it really hurts when you come off at 60kph. I say when and not if here, because I've never met a bike rider who's had an accident free riding life.

Are you willing to pay the price of broken arms/legs and the many weeks/months of time of of work and restricted activity and hospital visits that this will eventually entail.
posted by mule at 5:19 PM on January 9, 2006

They do have scooters that move quite smartly; Yamaha makes one called the Vino 125 that has (naturally) a 125cc engine and does around 50-55mph. Don't know if it's good or not, mind you, or appropriate for your use; just was recently recommended to me for a 4-mile LA commute (still trying to find time to get my motorcycle permit so I can drive one)
posted by davejay at 5:23 PM on January 9, 2006

Since I work at the UW, I can get a discount with Flexcar ($7.70/hour), so I'm probably going to do that as well, for the times that we do need a car. But I live about 2 miles from the nearest flexcar location, which makes it a little less convenient. I could probably swing it, but I'd need to plan things pretty carefully. It's worth giving it another look though; thanks for reminding me.
posted by hades at 5:24 PM on January 9, 2006

I'm not in Seattle (actually Boston area) but I ride a Honda Helix scooter all summer and love it! Lots of storage, good handling, good MPG, and at 240cc's it'll go on the highway (although I won't go on the highway with it). I especially like that it's not as heavy as a motorcycle, and it's got a lower center of gravity so it's not tippy.
posted by airgirl at 5:32 PM on January 9, 2006

devilsbrigade: is a 250cc bike inherently unsafe on the freeway? I've seen some reviews that indicate smaller bikes can at least keep up. But of the things I'm looking for, that's probably the least important, so if it's not a good idea, I'd happily stick to surface streets.
posted by hades at 5:35 PM on January 9, 2006

hades: No, but bikes are very vulnerable on the freeway in general. Surviving an accident often means being able to predict it and get away. If you need to accelerate rapidly when you're already going 65-75mph, most likely a 250cc bike isn't going to be too hot for you.
posted by devilsbrigade at 5:40 PM on January 9, 2006

Hmm, good point. I'd probably just stay off the freeway, then. I hadn't thought about an older Geo, but that's not a bad idea.
posted by hades at 5:47 PM on January 9, 2006

There's a new crop of "Maxi-scooters" out that may suit you. I ride a Suzuki Burgman 650 in LA, and it's as competent as any motorcycle (I rode 550 miles of backroads yesterday, no problem.) They also make a 400cc model. Check Burgman USA for info about the Suzuki scooters.
If this is your VERY FIRST bike, take the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course, and start out on a 400-650cc beater bike. A scooter (or anything with a lot of plastic) will be expensive to repair when you dump it.
posted by spacewrench at 7:22 PM on January 9, 2006

On the inevitability of dropping and/or crashing: I've been riding for 4 years without incident, although there have been a few close calls (other people's stupidity). Take care and you can be safe on a motorcycle. I know 4 years isn't a terribly long time, but it says you can go from novice to reasonably experienced without injury.

Also, it is a reasonable suggestion to start on a 500 or smaller, it gives you a much larger margin of error while you're learning. I started on a 500 which I rode for 3 years, and now I'm riding a 919, which certainly would have killed me if it was my first. Also, the 919 gets me 45mpg (same as the 500), so larger displacement doesn't always mean reduced efficiency.
posted by knave at 7:48 PM on January 9, 2006

A decent 250cc bike will knock your socks off. I'm a pretty big guy, and my Suzuki GSXR 250 took me up to a delightful 170km/h. Once or twice.

I mean, a friend of mine, ahh fuck it.

A 125cc scooter would be okay for a passenger, we had a Bajaj (Indian made Vespa knock-off) that was fine for this, reasonably light for me, but too heavy for my enfeebled, waif-like, little partner to put up on the centre stand. It topped out at around 80km/h, was wonderful for parking, and had little cubby-holes all over the place for sticking things like beer, and bread, and such.

We currently have a little single-seater 50cc Suzuki Streetmagic, which is completely hopeless for taking a passenger (I'd say impossible) has no cubby-holes, tops out at maybe 62km/h, and uses next to no petrol.

My favourite bike was my rattiest bike, an old Honda VFR 700, a previous owner had dropped it on the ground, and the belly farings were all smashed up, but I loved that thing. (It was pretty heavy, though.) The friend I mentioned earlier enjoyed a high-speed blast down a new (and deserted) stretch of motorway at 220km/h. Never again. He says.

That thing about breaking your body and missing weeks of work? That hasn't ever happened to me. I've had close calls with cars trying to kill me, but none of them have ever managed it, I've never even dropped a bike (barring one time when I was trying to move a bike down a muddy driveway, even with my feet on the ground I still managed to slip over). But you have to be MUCH more careful than in a car. Take it real easy, and pay attention.
posted by The Monkey at 7:51 PM on January 9, 2006

The freeway, IMO, has been the safest place to ride. There's always plenty of room (good for avoiding wandering cars), plenty of visibility, and little or no debris. The back roads are probably the second safest places to be, the issues there being sand/debris and animals. Urban environments are the most dangerous that I've ridden. Pretty much every time I go into a highly populated area, I'm nearly killed. As you're talking about commuting in Seattle, I'd consider that carefully.
posted by knave at 7:51 PM on January 9, 2006

I started riding for the first time two years ago, at age 33. I live in Lynnwood and commute into Seattle, using I-5, Aurora, and occasionally Lake City Way if pre-work errands take me in that direction.

I jumped in the deeper end and bought a 1981 Yamaha Seca 750. It's big, but old, slow and reliable. I'm strong enough to heft it, and riding it is a dream. Parking it can be free if you're patient and know what to look for.

Every incident I've had with it (three) all occured under 1 mph. Twice I basically just dropped it to the garage floor while learning to maneuver it in a 180, and one time I forgot to remove the wheel lock and lost my balance after 1/2 tire rotation.

Consider using craigslist to get a bike solely for beating up for a summer. While I have nothing but 100% wishes for your safety, odds are you'll dent the gas tank once or twice.

Keep the rubber side down!
posted by vito90 at 8:40 PM on January 9, 2006

Scooters are less able to handle pavement irregularities than motorcycles, because of their smaller wheels. I have known several people who had scooters, then bikes, and none of them would go back. Scooters are cute, though.

Your friends in the 1.) camp are wrong. Which is to say, they don't know what they are talking about. I had a 250cc bike that would out-accelerate any standard car on the road, had a 105mph top speed, and would out-corner anything. Then I had a 350cc that was much faster.

If you need to accelerate rapidly when you're already going 65-75mph, most likely a 250cc bike isn't going to be too hot for you. This is wrong; see above. My 250 would blow the doors off any car that wasn't muscled-up, to about 90mph.

250cc's is plenty for a first bike. A passenger will slow it down to the point that you'll have to be more careful in entering and merging situations, but it won't become slower than a car.

I should point out that buying a motorcycle to save on gas is environmentally responsible, but for most people, not much of an economy. You'll find on those trips to the grocery that you can't carry a week's worth of provisions and a couple of six-packs (a dilemma!) If it's your only vehicle, you'll cope. If it's not, you'll find yourself firing up the cage to go to the store.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:59 AM on January 10, 2006

I bought a Honda Rebel 250 in early October and have had a blast riding it. I'm about 230 lbs and the power seems pretty ample to me for a first bike. Like Kirth Gerson said above, you can definitely accelerate faster than most cars. I have ridden it in the rain quite a bit during my own commute and it's been fine. Taking it out on the interstate is a challenge not because of the power, but because of the stupid things people do when they exceed 70 mph. I've found the bike to be really comfortable for long rides as well having taken it out for more than a few 100 mile days. My concern with the scooter would be the same as the one above- the wheels are to small to handle alot of road hazards. This may not seem like a big deal now,but once you are riding it's amazing how many more potholes,railroad tracks, texture changes, and seams you notice. Some of those potholes get pretty hard to avoid when you're moving faster than 40 mph and if a smaller scooter wheel gets hung up in one that you can't avoid, you may make a swan-dive over the handle bars.
posted by ttrendel at 6:18 AM on January 10, 2006

You'll find on those trips to the grocery that you can't carry a week's worth of provisions and a couple of six-packs (a dilemma!) If it's your only vehicle, you'll cope. If it's not, you'll find yourself firing up the cage to go to the store.

(ex-Seattle biker here)
This is the sagest piece of advice I've seen here. If you want a bike for non cargo duties, there are scads of bikes available (and fun) in the Seattle area. It's a bike friendly town. A "scooter" like a Silverwing, or Aprilia's Atlantic, or even an older and pre-loved Helix is going to have enough cargo storage for a good-sized plastic bag-o-groceries.

Also - you didn't mention your age, but the old Ninjas and GSXRs, for example, will have HEFTY insurance premiums compared to scooters, and un-faired bikes. I know, insurance isn't required in WA, but you're a fool if you don't have it.

You ought to check out Wetleather and talk to those folks. Not only are they very knowledgeable, but they are helpful too. After I wrecked my YZF in Seattle I had scads of offers from them for all kinds of help. You enter into a real community when you start riding.
posted by TeamBilly at 7:32 AM on January 10, 2006

I own a KLR650. It is pretty much the ultimate urban attack vehicle if you have the leg length for it. It does ride high.

I have also owned a KLR250 (Super Sherpa). i is pretty much the penultimate urban attack vehicle if you are not a huge person. It is very much like riding a powered mountain bike. (It's also wicked fun off-road.)

The key advantages to these two bikes are that they have a tall, upright position. You will see over most vehicles and through almost all of them, including soccer-mom SUVs. This is a terrific advantage that can not be overstated. Additionally, the upright position makes you very noticable to other drivers. Combine that with brightly coloured safety wear and you drastically reduce your risks.

If you purchase the 650 you will want to immediately perform some upgrades: braided steel brake lines and variable-rate springs will make a world of difference. You shouldn't even consider owning the bike if you're not prepared to make those two changes. You should also do a jet swap, to tweak the power curve to your favour. And switch to some decent rubber ASAP.

If you purchase the Sherpa, you'll want to do the jet swap and, if there are any freeways/highways involved, bump the front sprocket up a tooth. Keep the old sprocket, though; it's great for offroad and the swapout only takes a couple of minutes.

IMO, you should have barkbusters on the handlebars, just because it's a bitch to have your hands crushed in an accident.

Note that scooters have much the same advantage: upright position, noticable to other drivers. But you won't be able to drive over a curb with them, nor will they handle potholes very well, and I rather doubt the handling is very good. Still, if you're strictly driving about in a relatively low-traffic, in-town situation, I'm sure they're perfectly fine.

As for carrying capacity, I've loaded my KLR650 with a week's worth of backpacking gear and food. It's a workhorse of a bike, no worries there.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:59 AM on January 10, 2006

I might also mention that my wife came within two inches of death riding the Sherpa.

An asshat kid in a farm truck was stopped at a T intersection. He watched me go by, continued to watch me, and drove out into the intersection. He took out my wife, running her over with both front and rear tires, destroying her left elbow and right shoulder. A fraction of a foot difference and he would have squished her torso fatally.

We're into year three of physiotherapy, surgeries, endless pain, reduced mobility, limitations with her field of work, and a seemingly never-ending lawsuit to ensure she is adequately compensated for a lifetime of therapies, loss of work, and pain.

One might consider that in motorcycle accidents, the motorcycle driver rarely comes out in good condition.

You must take a motorcycle rider training course. Not doing so is complete stupidity beyond all comprehension, and you'll get about as much pity as freeclimbers or stunt parachutists. Insure yourself to the hilt: if an accident happens, you want and will likely need maximum payout. Choose carefully before you make the decision to ride: it can easily cost you your life.

Greatest sport going, IMO, and one that requires a dead serious attitude.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:07 AM on January 10, 2006

Lots of good advice here; thank you!

For what it's worth, I'm signed up for the MSF course next week, and all this is predicated on my passing the class with enough confidence to continue. I'm 32, which I'm hoping means I get a better deal on insurance than I would if I were 20, and I've budgeted around $1200 for protective riding gear, because I value my skin.
posted by hades at 11:59 AM on January 10, 2006

As I'm thinking about it, make a ride out to Widder (they're somewhere out on the Kitsap peninsula) and check out their heated gloves. If you don't have heated grips or heated gloves, you cannot imagine how much they improve riding in cooler weather up there.
posted by TeamBilly at 12:15 PM on January 10, 2006

That's a lot of pro. You might have some left over, in which case you could buy some saddlebags for the six-packs. (I found that large dog panniers were ideal, but there may be better motorcycle furnishings now.) Oh, and rain gear.

Get used to riding alone for a while before you take on a passenger. Then get used to riding again, with a passenger. Hard acceleration will make the front wheel light, until the passenger falls off the back. Hard braking may cause helmet-knock. Go easy on the throttle and the brakes.

The worst riding surface is wet leaves. (Actually, ice is worse, but it usually looks worse, too. Leaves can fool you.)
posted by Kirth Gerson at 12:24 PM on January 10, 2006

Seattle biker here too.

Glad you're taking the MSF course. Yeah, bikes are risky, but damn -- the joy one feels when riding is like nothing else!

There's tons of online resources for bikers, the response you got here is just a small fraction of information available to you. So before you buy, be sure to go to the dealerships and 'try on' bikes for size...my old roommate bought a bike too big for her and as a result, she never rode it. Go to the various MC boards and ask tons of questions.
There is no 'perfect' ride. Most of my biker friends own more than one bike. I own two and if I could, I'd have a one or two more!

After you take the course, I'd suggest getting a lot of low-speed manuvering practice AND check out the 'Proficient Riding' books by local author David Hough. You can find links for the books here at Sound Rider a great page for events/services/clubs, etc. in the Puget Sound and beyond. Also be sure to learn basic maintenence, your safety depends on it much more than in a cage.

I bid you good luck and Keep The Rubber Side Down!
posted by black8 at 12:47 PM on January 10, 2006

And, hey, since you're looking at dual-sport bikes, go for some gravel road/off-road riding. It improves you on-road skills, as you learn to accomodate the "slipperiness" of gravel, mud, and other unstable terrain.

Thanks for taking the MSF course. It's invaluable, and I'm always greatly relieved when a would-be motorcyclist plans for both MSF and full-on safety gear.
posted by five fresh fish at 2:27 PM on January 10, 2006

Also - you didn't mention your age, but the old Ninjas and GSXRs, for example, will have HEFTY insurance premiums compared to scooters, and un-faired bikes. I know, insurance isn't required in WA, but you're a fool if you don't have it

I do not think that this is true in CA - well, it's true for the gixxers and big Ninjas, but the EX500 comes in at 498cc, which seems to give it a break on ins. I am a 23yo male with a few tickets in my life, and I only pay $400 per year for liability on a 2001 model.
posted by thedaniel at 2:52 PM on January 10, 2006

vespa GT/LT/ET, or better yet an older scooter like a p200, GS, etc.

as far as handling, yes potholes can be a hazard, and motorcyles are more 'stable', however scooters are MUCH more maneuverable than bikes, smaller wheels make for smaller turning radiuses.

in seattle, a scooter will allow you to get from one end of town quicker than most other non freeway transpo, esp in traffic if you are an 'engaged' rider.

two up you should be fine on all but the steepest hills for an older geared vespa. and for the twist and goes they have no problem hauling two, and their gear.

there is scooter specific MSF course if you plan to go this route too.

and for my scoots in seattle its a bit over 100 for Full coverage.
posted by [this is good] at 1:44 AM on January 11, 2006

also second the gear, even on a 'lil scooter' you can still mess yourself up bad if you're not wearing good riding pants/jacket/boots/gloves/full face helmet.

i've known people who chose coolness and fashion over safety and lost big time, compared to those who were geared up correctly when the unfortunate occured and lived much happier lives after as a result.

scoot safe!
posted by [this is good] at 1:49 AM on January 11, 2006

Insurance rates for bikes often hinge on the engine displacement, which is why you see a Rapacious 500 whose engine size is listed as 498cc. If you do the math, the actual displacement sometimes comes out bigger than the threshold size.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:54 AM on January 11, 2006