Am I too incompatible with my white fiance?
October 22, 2016 9:43 PM Subscribe
I am a Nigerian woman engaged to a white guy of Swedish background. We live in Canada. We've been together for about five years and I love him very much.
We've been arguing a lot lately, mainly because of what I perceive to be his pattern of insensitive and condescending behaviour towards me. Recently he was in one of his argumentative moods, and in response to me saying (facetiously) that I have a fantasy about killing slave masters, he told me that it's strange for me to identify with descendants of slaves, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans. He said by talking as if I have suffered from the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I am "appropriating someone else's tragedy". This deeply upset me, more than any of his other insensitive / arrogant comments have.
He has also made other comments that suggest he is not sensitive enough to race issues to support me. He doesn't seem to understand how black people understand their identity or how racism works. I fear that we are going to have problems in our marriage because of this.
How can I explain why the comment he made is so hurtful? Have any of you found yourselves in a situation like this, and stayed in your relationship?
I am a Nigerian woman engaged to a white guy of Swedish background. We live in Canada. We've been together for about five years and I love him very much. He is a kind person, very smart and really funny.
But we've been arguing a lot lately, mainly because of what I perceive to be his pattern of insensitive and condescending behaviour towards me. He is generally very cynical and loves to argue (although he calls it "debating"). He also makes comments about me and says he's just joking, but to me they seem like mean digs. For example, he has told me a few times that i have "no imagination" (because I don't like to play a computer game that he plays, and I don't understand a particular movie that he loves.) He also dismissed my strong interest in a certain political candidate, who I wanted to campaign for; he told me I was only "suddenly" interested in politics because I'm "having an identity crisis". I told him that his "teasing" and dismissive comments are hurtful, and he's apologised and improved his behaviour a bit.
Recently he was in one of his argumentative moods, and in response to me saying (facetiously) that I have a fantasy about killing slave masters, he told me that it was strange for me say that, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans. He majored in history and feels that he knows a lot about the history of slavery. He said that by talking as if I can identify with descendants of slaves (slaves sold during the Trans-Atlantic slave trade), I am "appropriating someone else's tragedy". This deeply upset me, more than any of his other insensitive / arrogant comments have upset me.
Part of the reason it upset me so much is that he's also made other comments that suggest he is not sensitive enough to race issues to support me. for example, when I was watching news stories about Trayvon Martin being killed by George Zimmerman, he did not say any words of support. The only thing he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person.
I got very upset about his Trayvon Martin comment, and he apologised profusely. But his recent comments about slavery make me very concerned.
He doesn't seem to understand how black people experience/ make sense of their identity or how racism works. I fear that we are going to have problems in our marriage because of this.
I've told him that I'm seriously concerned that we are too incompatible to be together. Whenever I express concerns like this, he gets very upset. I already suspect that he is experiencing some depression right now, because we've both just finished grad school are in a stressful transitional point in our careers. When I mention the possibility of us breaking up, he becomes even more depressed. A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
He has said that I should not stay with him just because he loves me or just because it would hurt him for me to leave. But he says he can't help crying when he thinks about us breaking up.
I too will feel devastated if we don't stay together, but I'm not sure whether we're right for each other; I can't imagine how I can stay with him if he doesn't change the way he thinks (and the way he speaks to me) about race issues. How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful? Have any of you found yourselves in a situation like this, and stayed in your relationship?
I am a Nigerian woman engaged to a white guy of Swedish background. We live in Canada. We've been together for about five years and I love him very much. He is a kind person, very smart and really funny.
But we've been arguing a lot lately, mainly because of what I perceive to be his pattern of insensitive and condescending behaviour towards me. He is generally very cynical and loves to argue (although he calls it "debating"). He also makes comments about me and says he's just joking, but to me they seem like mean digs. For example, he has told me a few times that i have "no imagination" (because I don't like to play a computer game that he plays, and I don't understand a particular movie that he loves.) He also dismissed my strong interest in a certain political candidate, who I wanted to campaign for; he told me I was only "suddenly" interested in politics because I'm "having an identity crisis". I told him that his "teasing" and dismissive comments are hurtful, and he's apologised and improved his behaviour a bit.
Recently he was in one of his argumentative moods, and in response to me saying (facetiously) that I have a fantasy about killing slave masters, he told me that it was strange for me say that, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans. He majored in history and feels that he knows a lot about the history of slavery. He said that by talking as if I can identify with descendants of slaves (slaves sold during the Trans-Atlantic slave trade), I am "appropriating someone else's tragedy". This deeply upset me, more than any of his other insensitive / arrogant comments have upset me.
Part of the reason it upset me so much is that he's also made other comments that suggest he is not sensitive enough to race issues to support me. for example, when I was watching news stories about Trayvon Martin being killed by George Zimmerman, he did not say any words of support. The only thing he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person.
I got very upset about his Trayvon Martin comment, and he apologised profusely. But his recent comments about slavery make me very concerned.
He doesn't seem to understand how black people experience/ make sense of their identity or how racism works. I fear that we are going to have problems in our marriage because of this.
I've told him that I'm seriously concerned that we are too incompatible to be together. Whenever I express concerns like this, he gets very upset. I already suspect that he is experiencing some depression right now, because we've both just finished grad school are in a stressful transitional point in our careers. When I mention the possibility of us breaking up, he becomes even more depressed. A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
He has said that I should not stay with him just because he loves me or just because it would hurt him for me to leave. But he says he can't help crying when he thinks about us breaking up.
I too will feel devastated if we don't stay together, but I'm not sure whether we're right for each other; I can't imagine how I can stay with him if he doesn't change the way he thinks (and the way he speaks to me) about race issues. How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful? Have any of you found yourselves in a situation like this, and stayed in your relationship?
Do you think, if you talked to him, he would be open to listening? Do you think, if he truly listened, that his perspective could change?
If the answer is yes, talk to him. And when you do that, speak from your heart. After you process his response, you will know exactly what to do.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 10:14 PM on October 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
If the answer is yes, talk to him. And when you do that, speak from your heart. After you process his response, you will know exactly what to do.
posted by sevensnowflakes at 10:14 PM on October 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
I cannot speak from the point of a POC, but I can speak from the point of a feminist woman who has dated men. I have kind of given up on the idea that any man I'll date will already be 100% "woke" to the issues. But I do have the expectation that they will try, that they will listen, and they will take my concerns seriously and be willing to learn even if it is uncomfortable to do so.
My understanding is that this process is more difficult, and even more important in cross-race relationships, especially when it is a POC dating a White person. Mainly because I have met few men who will claim "I don't see gender", but as you have probably experienced there are a lot of White people who will take that "colorblind" stance and be extremely stubborn about accepting the fact that POC live in a world that sees them very differently and has very different expectations of them.
If your fiance seemed genuinely interested in accepting that just maybe you know a bit more about how Black identity and the Black experience works than he does, if he seemed more willing to immediately apologize and do research and figure out his shit, then I would say give him a chance. But it sounds like he wants to be with you without acknowledging the fact that he is with a Black woman, and that requires confronting the racist shit about himself that he doesn't want to confront.
The fact that this appears to occur within a larger context of dismissive and disrespectful comments, and he calls his defensiveness about being called out "debating" makes it even more of a red flag.
What happens if you two have kids and they aren't white-passing, as they likely will not be? What happens when they first encounter racism--will be he dismissive towards them and argue it must have been something else? Will he not allow them to put the racism they face into the context of slavery because you're Nigerian? And (while this is coming from someone who lives in the USA) will he not allow you to give them the very necessary talk about the different way they may be treated by law enforcement, and how to act accordingly?
I would be extremely skeptical in your position. You deserve to be with someone who understands you--or at least someone who genuinely tries.
posted by Anonymous at 10:24 PM on October 22, 2016
My understanding is that this process is more difficult, and even more important in cross-race relationships, especially when it is a POC dating a White person. Mainly because I have met few men who will claim "I don't see gender", but as you have probably experienced there are a lot of White people who will take that "colorblind" stance and be extremely stubborn about accepting the fact that POC live in a world that sees them very differently and has very different expectations of them.
If your fiance seemed genuinely interested in accepting that just maybe you know a bit more about how Black identity and the Black experience works than he does, if he seemed more willing to immediately apologize and do research and figure out his shit, then I would say give him a chance. But it sounds like he wants to be with you without acknowledging the fact that he is with a Black woman, and that requires confronting the racist shit about himself that he doesn't want to confront.
The fact that this appears to occur within a larger context of dismissive and disrespectful comments, and he calls his defensiveness about being called out "debating" makes it even more of a red flag.
What happens if you two have kids and they aren't white-passing, as they likely will not be? What happens when they first encounter racism--will be he dismissive towards them and argue it must have been something else? Will he not allow them to put the racism they face into the context of slavery because you're Nigerian? And (while this is coming from someone who lives in the USA) will he not allow you to give them the very necessary talk about the different way they may be treated by law enforcement, and how to act accordingly?
I would be extremely skeptical in your position. You deserve to be with someone who understands you--or at least someone who genuinely tries.
posted by Anonymous at 10:24 PM on October 22, 2016
Best answer: I'm a white woman engaged to a multiracial man. Yeaaahhhhhhh, your fiancé is being an ass.
Granted I was already politically liberal before we got together, and as a progressive white southerner, I've always felt like it was on me to educate myself about race and be better in general.
But, like... yeah. It's kind of his job as a white person in an interracial relationship to step up and educate himself. Or at least support you and own his shit and listen. If he is crying at the thought of losing you because he's too racist to make it work, he can learn to be better about this. My partner and I are strongly in favor of having kids, and knowing I'm going to be raising non-white children is another kick in the ass to grind hard on my never-ending anti-racist education. (Not sure if that is at play with you guys, but it might be worth bringing up with him.)
I don't really have specific advice for you. But I can tell you how I would want this to go if I were your fiancé.
You need to sit him down and have a Talk about this. At this point, I do think it rises to that level, and the onus is no longer on you to be chill and bring it up in a casual way. Tell him everything you wrote here, and add that you need him to take on the responsibility of being better at this stuff. Tell him that the manner in which you are incompatible is fixable, and it's on him to fix it. I would mention that you get that this is a process, and that what you want is support and listening, not necessarily perfection.
I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to give him resources or set him on a path if you have ideas about that, but it sounds like what he mostly needs to do is shut up and listen.
Also, an alternate thought: is your fiancé like this about everything? Like can you just not tell him a single thing, from household chores to taste in movies to what to do on Saturday night, without him being a contrarian dick about it? Does he support you otherwise, but just not about this particular thing? In that case, yeah, look, it sucks to break an engagement, but you don't need that in your life.
posted by Sara C. at 10:30 PM on October 22, 2016 [56 favorites]
Granted I was already politically liberal before we got together, and as a progressive white southerner, I've always felt like it was on me to educate myself about race and be better in general.
But, like... yeah. It's kind of his job as a white person in an interracial relationship to step up and educate himself. Or at least support you and own his shit and listen. If he is crying at the thought of losing you because he's too racist to make it work, he can learn to be better about this. My partner and I are strongly in favor of having kids, and knowing I'm going to be raising non-white children is another kick in the ass to grind hard on my never-ending anti-racist education. (Not sure if that is at play with you guys, but it might be worth bringing up with him.)
I don't really have specific advice for you. But I can tell you how I would want this to go if I were your fiancé.
You need to sit him down and have a Talk about this. At this point, I do think it rises to that level, and the onus is no longer on you to be chill and bring it up in a casual way. Tell him everything you wrote here, and add that you need him to take on the responsibility of being better at this stuff. Tell him that the manner in which you are incompatible is fixable, and it's on him to fix it. I would mention that you get that this is a process, and that what you want is support and listening, not necessarily perfection.
I think it wouldn't be the worst idea to give him resources or set him on a path if you have ideas about that, but it sounds like what he mostly needs to do is shut up and listen.
Also, an alternate thought: is your fiancé like this about everything? Like can you just not tell him a single thing, from household chores to taste in movies to what to do on Saturday night, without him being a contrarian dick about it? Does he support you otherwise, but just not about this particular thing? In that case, yeah, look, it sucks to break an engagement, but you don't need that in your life.
posted by Sara C. at 10:30 PM on October 22, 2016 [56 favorites]
I should also say that even if he was trying, it would be perfectly OK for you to break up because you decided you were worn out expending the emotional labor necessary to get him up to speed. There are plenty of POC who swear off dating White people precisely because that emotional labor is so exhausting and can end up being necessary throughout the entire length of the relationship. So the fact that he's not trying makes this situation even worse for you.
posted by Anonymous at 10:32 PM on October 22, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 10:32 PM on October 22, 2016
You mentioned condescension in your post, and your fiance's educational background. Perhaps a thing to ask yourself is whether it goes so far as contempt? Contempt is poison in a relationship, even if it coexists with love.
posted by heatherlogan at 10:37 PM on October 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by heatherlogan at 10:37 PM on October 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
he told me that it's strange for me to identify with descendants of slaves, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans
Any white person not actually a historian studying the period who takes significant interest in this particular phenomenon is almost certainly a bad dude.
he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person
...make that "certainly."
This is code language for "I am an entitled racist ass." This is not a fixable problem, at least not on the timeline you need it to be fixable. You've both just finished grad school, so he is too old for there to be any excuse. Even without the other dismissive comments, it's not going to work.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 PM on October 22, 2016 [58 favorites]
Any white person not actually a historian studying the period who takes significant interest in this particular phenomenon is almost certainly a bad dude.
he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person
...make that "certainly."
This is code language for "I am an entitled racist ass." This is not a fixable problem, at least not on the timeline you need it to be fixable. You've both just finished grad school, so he is too old for there to be any excuse. Even without the other dismissive comments, it's not going to work.
posted by praemunire at 10:43 PM on October 22, 2016 [58 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all so much for your answers . Its very helpful.
I considered writing more about why I love him, but I figured it was better to get right into the problem. Hard to describe why I love him; some reasons are that he really is a good person, and I love how much he loves his family. I also admire how creative he is. He really can be an ass though. And the one thing I can't stomach him being an ass about is my blackness and everything that comes with it.
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced". I think I agree though, that the onus should be on him to do some research so he can understand my perspective.
He is very much a contrarian. (Not when it comes to deciding what we should eat, what movie we should see, etc. But he is about people's general ideas and opinions; he's even said that he's addicted to "breaking down" people's ideas and opinions by finding something wrong with them).
I told him about my intention to write about our problem on this site. I'm not sure how he'll react if I show this to him though.
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 10:49 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I considered writing more about why I love him, but I figured it was better to get right into the problem. Hard to describe why I love him; some reasons are that he really is a good person, and I love how much he loves his family. I also admire how creative he is. He really can be an ass though. And the one thing I can't stomach him being an ass about is my blackness and everything that comes with it.
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced". I think I agree though, that the onus should be on him to do some research so he can understand my perspective.
He is very much a contrarian. (Not when it comes to deciding what we should eat, what movie we should see, etc. But he is about people's general ideas and opinions; he's even said that he's addicted to "breaking down" people's ideas and opinions by finding something wrong with them).
I told him about my intention to write about our problem on this site. I'm not sure how he'll react if I show this to him though.
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 10:49 PM on October 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have zero background or basis to address this from a race perspective.
But from a baseline relationship perspective, empathy and caring about another person means you don't need to "be convinced" when your partner tells you something is hurtful.
I have sensitive spots. I told my husband they were sensitive. He is careful to avoid them. The end.
That is basic respect in a relationship. He didn't ask me to prove or justify or whatever the basis for my sensitive spots. It is not his job to be the arbiter of what I'm "allowed" to be upset by. It is not my job to have to "logically" justify every feeling I have.
---
Also: I'm an argumentative person who likes breaking down people's ideas. That is what similarly inclined friends or internet forums are for. Not spouses.
A spouse is supposed to be a safe spot, not an endless storm of conflict just because they enjoy taking apart everything you say.
posted by Cozybee at 10:57 PM on October 22, 2016 [168 favorites]
But from a baseline relationship perspective, empathy and caring about another person means you don't need to "be convinced" when your partner tells you something is hurtful.
I have sensitive spots. I told my husband they were sensitive. He is careful to avoid them. The end.
That is basic respect in a relationship. He didn't ask me to prove or justify or whatever the basis for my sensitive spots. It is not his job to be the arbiter of what I'm "allowed" to be upset by. It is not my job to have to "logically" justify every feeling I have.
---
Also: I'm an argumentative person who likes breaking down people's ideas. That is what similarly inclined friends or internet forums are for. Not spouses.
A spouse is supposed to be a safe spot, not an endless storm of conflict just because they enjoy taking apart everything you say.
posted by Cozybee at 10:57 PM on October 22, 2016 [168 favorites]
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Those are completely different attitudes - if he has said the second and not the first, then I would anticipate that he doesn't want to listen and understand, he wants you to prove that your feelings are real and valid and important enough for him to respond to. And I think the odds that you will ever be able to prove that to his satisfaction are infinetismally small, and the process of even attempting to do so will be an enormous emotional strain for you and just a fun series of debates for him.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:03 PM on October 22, 2016 [49 favorites]
Those are completely different attitudes - if he has said the second and not the first, then I would anticipate that he doesn't want to listen and understand, he wants you to prove that your feelings are real and valid and important enough for him to respond to. And I think the odds that you will ever be able to prove that to his satisfaction are infinetismally small, and the process of even attempting to do so will be an enormous emotional strain for you and just a fun series of debates for him.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 11:03 PM on October 22, 2016 [49 favorites]
Re canards like "Nigerians sold other African people into slavery" or "black-on-black crime", while, yes, these are red flags for some seriously bad racism, it is definitely possible to be deprogrammed of a lot of this stuff if you have a strong commitment to learning and growing and listening.
I grew up in the US South and internalized a lot of things like this. Attending a Northern liberal arts college with strong diversity education requirements and a large non-white student base -- and constantly being given texts like Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack -- schooled my ass pretty quickly. Honestly, being naturally contrarian helped the deprogramming process.
A big part of being a contrarian is actually learning things and being able to compare different kinds of information that don't normally sit together. If he can only do this in the direction of being racist, he's not actually doing a good job of being contrarian. He's actually accepting the conventional wisdom without examining anything.
posted by Sara C. at 11:13 PM on October 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
I grew up in the US South and internalized a lot of things like this. Attending a Northern liberal arts college with strong diversity education requirements and a large non-white student base -- and constantly being given texts like Unpacking The Invisible Knapsack -- schooled my ass pretty quickly. Honestly, being naturally contrarian helped the deprogramming process.
A big part of being a contrarian is actually learning things and being able to compare different kinds of information that don't normally sit together. If he can only do this in the direction of being racist, he's not actually doing a good job of being contrarian. He's actually accepting the conventional wisdom without examining anything.
posted by Sara C. at 11:13 PM on October 22, 2016 [5 favorites]
when I was watching news stories about Trayvon Martin being killed by George Zimmerman, he did not say any words of support. The only thing he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person.
I would leave someone for saying this alone. I am a white woman and so I cannot say how much worse it is for you to hear this from a man you love than it would be for me, but I trust and believe it is a lot worse. But it's so bad that I would find it unforgivable purely on its own, even though it would not be an equal act of directed hostility and hatred if it were said to me.
Only you can decide what to forgive in your own relationship, but if he is not capable of understanding that he needs to ask for forgiveness, I think that is a line that cannot be uncrossed.
(I see you say he apologized but it doesn't sound like he understands he did wrong beyond hurting your feelings.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:18 PM on October 22, 2016 [51 favorites]
I would leave someone for saying this alone. I am a white woman and so I cannot say how much worse it is for you to hear this from a man you love than it would be for me, but I trust and believe it is a lot worse. But it's so bad that I would find it unforgivable purely on its own, even though it would not be an equal act of directed hostility and hatred if it were said to me.
Only you can decide what to forgive in your own relationship, but if he is not capable of understanding that he needs to ask for forgiveness, I think that is a line that cannot be uncrossed.
(I see you say he apologized but it doesn't sound like he understands he did wrong beyond hurting your feelings.)
posted by queenofbithynia at 11:18 PM on October 22, 2016 [51 favorites]
He is very much a contrarian. (Not when it comes to deciding what we should eat, what movie we should see, etc. But he is about people's general ideas and opinions; he's even said that he's addicted to "breaking down" people's ideas and opinions by finding something wrong with them).
In other words, he's "addicted" to not taking people at their word, not empathizing with them, and not respecting their lived experiences.
Leaving aside the hair-raising INSANE WTF RACIST shit re: the slave trade, black-on-black crime, Trayvon Martin, etc., this alone is a quality that will become poison in your relationship. In fact, you're already feeling the toxic effects. There's nothing you've written that indicates that he has the awareness, desire, or capacity to change this. I'm sorry, I know it's unbelievably hard to face that someone you love isn't compatible for the long-term, but his compulsion to "break down" other people's ideas and opinions is a serious red flag. It's OK if you feel it's a deal-breaker. It would be for a lot of people.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:25 PM on October 22, 2016 [69 favorites]
In other words, he's "addicted" to not taking people at their word, not empathizing with them, and not respecting their lived experiences.
Leaving aside the hair-raising INSANE WTF RACIST shit re: the slave trade, black-on-black crime, Trayvon Martin, etc., this alone is a quality that will become poison in your relationship. In fact, you're already feeling the toxic effects. There's nothing you've written that indicates that he has the awareness, desire, or capacity to change this. I'm sorry, I know it's unbelievably hard to face that someone you love isn't compatible for the long-term, but his compulsion to "break down" other people's ideas and opinions is a serious red flag. It's OK if you feel it's a deal-breaker. It would be for a lot of people.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:25 PM on October 22, 2016 [69 favorites]
I am a white person married to a white person and I would be seriously taken aback if my husband repeatedly talked about black people like this, particularly using the specific dogwhistles you have quoted - phrases deeply entrenched in active white supremacy - and also thought it was fun to be a shit to people for sport.
I'll take your word that he loves his family (though you should be considered his family too, shouldn't you?), but no, he isn't an especially good person. He believes he is better than you, for one, and that his thoughts on your identity (and, I'm going to guess most other things) are more important than yours.
If you can, as an internal exercise, actively identify any significant areas of your life in which he shows you actual respect, there might be some way to reach him. If you have zero intention of having children and have taken multiple precautions against accidents, you can take your time figuring out if you want to stay. Please don't have children with him unless this is already resolved.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:50 PM on October 22, 2016 [23 favorites]
I'll take your word that he loves his family (though you should be considered his family too, shouldn't you?), but no, he isn't an especially good person. He believes he is better than you, for one, and that his thoughts on your identity (and, I'm going to guess most other things) are more important than yours.
If you can, as an internal exercise, actively identify any significant areas of your life in which he shows you actual respect, there might be some way to reach him. If you have zero intention of having children and have taken multiple precautions against accidents, you can take your time figuring out if you want to stay. Please don't have children with him unless this is already resolved.
posted by Lyn Never at 11:50 PM on October 22, 2016 [23 favorites]
Best answer: But we've been arguing a lot lately, mainly because of what I perceive to be his pattern of insensitive and condescending behaviour towards me. He is generally very cynical and loves to argue (although he calls it "debating"). He also makes comments about me and says he's just joking, but to me they seem like mean digs. For example, he has told me a few times that i have "no imagination" (because I don't like to play a computer game that he plays, and I don't understand a particular movie that he loves.) He also dismissed my strong interest in a certain political candidate, who I wanted to campaign for; he told me I was only "suddenly" interested in politics because I'm "having an identity crisis". I told him that his "teasing" and dismissive comments are hurtful, and he's apologised and improved his behaviour a bit.
This stood out to more, more even than this man being an idiot white boy. Aside from your fiance's ignorance/racism (which is deeply problematic in itself) he is not kind towards you. Your worth as a person is not contingent on being a yes-woman, unlike what he seems to think. Also, that second comment? Very, very typical abusive, gaslighting language and you deserve much better than a condescending ass who thinks he's better than you.
I am a woman of colour who has a ton of white friends. I would not tolerate behaviour like your fiance's from them. From somebody I was in a relationship with? HELL no. There is a minimum level of awareness and decency I expect a white person to have, and your fiancé fails that test abysmally. Not because his opinions are egregious (they are) but because he thinks the white dick he's currently talking out of makes him more of an authority than your lived experience.
And the one thing I can't stomach him being an ass about is my blackness and everything that comes with it.
Hugs to you. It is incredibly, incredibly tough to be caught between your identity and the people you love. Please believe me when I say that there are people out there who - while not perfect - will at least be willing to not be raging assholes to you. This guy? Not one of them, as he's shown very clearly.
posted by Tamanna at 12:40 AM on October 23, 2016 [83 favorites]
This stood out to more, more even than this man being an idiot white boy. Aside from your fiance's ignorance/racism (which is deeply problematic in itself) he is not kind towards you. Your worth as a person is not contingent on being a yes-woman, unlike what he seems to think. Also, that second comment? Very, very typical abusive, gaslighting language and you deserve much better than a condescending ass who thinks he's better than you.
I am a woman of colour who has a ton of white friends. I would not tolerate behaviour like your fiance's from them. From somebody I was in a relationship with? HELL no. There is a minimum level of awareness and decency I expect a white person to have, and your fiancé fails that test abysmally. Not because his opinions are egregious (they are) but because he thinks the white dick he's currently talking out of makes him more of an authority than your lived experience.
And the one thing I can't stomach him being an ass about is my blackness and everything that comes with it.
Hugs to you. It is incredibly, incredibly tough to be caught between your identity and the people you love. Please believe me when I say that there are people out there who - while not perfect - will at least be willing to not be raging assholes to you. This guy? Not one of them, as he's shown very clearly.
posted by Tamanna at 12:40 AM on October 23, 2016 [83 favorites]
he's even said that he's addicted to "breaking down" people's ideas and opinions by finding something wrong with them).
I would not want to marry someone who said they were addicted to finding fault with and brow-beating others, because guess who's going to feed that addiction? The person he spends the most time with, his spouse. I would be ESPECIALLY unlikely to marry that person if I sensed that they thought one way I was "wrong" was an inherent characteristic that I could never change.
I don't know if you should leave him or not. I do know he isn't here asking us how to stop hurting his beloved fiance every time her racial background comes up in conversation.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:42 AM on October 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
I would not want to marry someone who said they were addicted to finding fault with and brow-beating others, because guess who's going to feed that addiction? The person he spends the most time with, his spouse. I would be ESPECIALLY unlikely to marry that person if I sensed that they thought one way I was "wrong" was an inherent characteristic that I could never change.
I don't know if you should leave him or not. I do know he isn't here asking us how to stop hurting his beloved fiance every time her racial background comes up in conversation.
posted by Snarl Furillo at 12:42 AM on October 23, 2016 [39 favorites]
Also, I just remembered that two good friends of mine - one Indian, one white - recently got together. She's big on social justice; he's slowly unpacking a lot of the toxic shit he was taught growing up a westernised child of colonialism.
One of the first conversations I had with the white GF after they got together, she asked for my help in being a better ally/GF to a person of colour. Part of our conversation involved how to bring up the fact that he was (unintentionally) using some anti-black language because he didn't know better, and she wanted to correct him without being a dick about it.
I see that, and I see your fiancé's behaviour, and, well. Like Snarl Furillo said. He's not the one in here asking how not to be a dick.
posted by Tamanna at 12:57 AM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
One of the first conversations I had with the white GF after they got together, she asked for my help in being a better ally/GF to a person of colour. Part of our conversation involved how to bring up the fact that he was (unintentionally) using some anti-black language because he didn't know better, and she wanted to correct him without being a dick about it.
I see that, and I see your fiancé's behaviour, and, well. Like Snarl Furillo said. He's not the one in here asking how not to be a dick.
posted by Tamanna at 12:57 AM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am a white feminist. I am extremely priviledged and so can't speak from the POV of a marginalized person. But a lot of this concerns me. I agree with almost everyone else here that there are major issues in his treatment of you that go beyond cultural differences.
A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
This strikes me as emotional manipulation. So does his tendency to be contrarion. It's a "thing" for privileged people (often white guys) to play "devil's advocate", and here's why that's problematic.
Are you guys considering having kids? What if your kids present as black? Will he constantly be discounting their experiences in the world in the same way he discounts yours? Will you be able to handle that and undo the damage it causes?
he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person
Uhhhhhhg nooooooo. "Black-on-black crime" is like an undercover racist catch-phrase.
posted by Brittanie at 1:01 AM on October 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
This strikes me as emotional manipulation. So does his tendency to be contrarion. It's a "thing" for privileged people (often white guys) to play "devil's advocate", and here's why that's problematic.
Are you guys considering having kids? What if your kids present as black? Will he constantly be discounting their experiences in the world in the same way he discounts yours? Will you be able to handle that and undo the damage it causes?
he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person
Uhhhhhhg nooooooo. "Black-on-black crime" is like an undercover racist catch-phrase.
posted by Brittanie at 1:01 AM on October 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Best answer: Have any of you found yourselves in a situation like this, and stayed in your relationship?
Hi hummingbird, I believe I have been in a situation like this! I'm a person of color (mixed-race if that matters) who was once in grad school, who was once dating a white-identifying fellow grad student with the intention of getting married. While our relationship did start out positively, I swear in the last half of the relationship, it was like he felt infused with the mentality of "the white man's burden" over being with me. Over time I noticed a dichotomy emerge in his thinking, in which when I had problem A, it was because "that's how I am" (or even worse, that's how "my people" are), vs when he had problem A, it was because he and/or his family 'legitimately'(?) struggled. This became the theme of our relationship -- how his experience of life was always the more legitimate experience. Quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned, it also correlated with the fact that he was the 'whiter' or 'more ethnically/colonially pure' one in the relationship.
I can't imagine how I can stay with him if he doesn't change the way he thinks (and the way he speaks to me) about race issues. How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful?
Hurtful comments got noticeably worse in the third year of our relationship, when the dismissive remarks he was used to making to me in private began slipping out in front of company. I'd been in counseling, practicing assertive communication, so it wasn't like I was speaking to him in broken english where he needed to play translator to my broken mind or something. I would find myself confronting him afterwards, trying to use words to get him to understand how hurtful his comments were -- I guess if not for my well-being privately but for how it was impacting me when done publicly. His response was to shut me down for bringing it up, and there were times when he walked away while I stood there, wondering if he really couldn't see that this was hurting me or that it was a dealbreaker for me. Once it crossed the line to him demeaning what I had to say in front of others, other incompatibilities rapidly grew worse too.
I've told him that I'm seriously concerned that we are too incompatible to be together. Whenever I express concerns like this, he gets very upset. I already suspect that he is experiencing some depression right now...
I also had concerns that my ex had depression. While his mom agreed, his dad -- who often seemed to have harsh responses towards his son's emotional concerns -- was not as receptive to the idea. I'm pretty sure the negative dynamic in our relationship had become what my ex experienced with his dad. His dad wouldn't listen either if his son tried to tell him that something had upset or hurt him, and then he would turn around and repeat the behavior with me. I began to fear that if I stayed he would never work on his depression because it was too easy to have me around to blame for it (rather than the emotionally hurtful parent). In the end, I had to appreciate that many people struggle with depression without outsourcing responsibility for it to their loved ones. Even as a "less than" in the relationship, I was not responsible for this. I also had to appreciate that many, many people live with tremendous hurt bestowed by their parents, and may even carry that hurt to the grave because the fear of confronting a parent whose behavior has been hurtful is just so tremendously powerful.
He has said that I should not stay with him just because he loves me or just because it would hurt him for me to leave. But he says he can't help crying when he thinks about us breaking up.
Next time your guy is crying so sadly over the thought of breaking up, trying asking him again about Trayvon Martin or any race-related issue, and watch the masks change. This was an eye-opening experience for me during the breakup conversation with my ex, where he went from teary-eyed heartbreak right back to self-righteous condescension in 2 seconds flat. "Are you bringing that up again?" Like a lightswitch, all signs of affection and empathy were gone. That was a clarion moment which helped me to appreciate how great the divide truly was between us. I have never regretted leaving that relationship, even through the many challenges of breaking up, retaining my financial independence, and being single again. I can listen to music in other languages, read about the news, post comments on websites of similar interest groups, and enjoy myself -- all without being policed in how to do it 'whiter' / 'righter'.
So YMMV of course. However I will say I believe you can do better. You may need to be strong, and maybe even spend time investing in your own sense of identity when you feel you have the freedom within your own home to do so. That is what I ended up doing, and having been through grad school probably empowered me to better appreciate my identity-building research more than any other time in my life. I no longer see my identity as something for some whiter or purer man to tolerate as an irredeemable flaw. Instead it's something similarly identified people, as I'm learning to connect with them, see as quite the enhancing feature. Whoever you are, whatever your connections to the greater world around you are, you definitely can do better. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 1:02 AM on October 23, 2016 [101 favorites]
Hi hummingbird, I believe I have been in a situation like this! I'm a person of color (mixed-race if that matters) who was once in grad school, who was once dating a white-identifying fellow grad student with the intention of getting married. While our relationship did start out positively, I swear in the last half of the relationship, it was like he felt infused with the mentality of "the white man's burden" over being with me. Over time I noticed a dichotomy emerge in his thinking, in which when I had problem A, it was because "that's how I am" (or even worse, that's how "my people" are), vs when he had problem A, it was because he and/or his family 'legitimately'(?) struggled. This became the theme of our relationship -- how his experience of life was always the more legitimate experience. Quite frankly, as far as I'm concerned, it also correlated with the fact that he was the 'whiter' or 'more ethnically/colonially pure' one in the relationship.
I can't imagine how I can stay with him if he doesn't change the way he thinks (and the way he speaks to me) about race issues. How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful?
Hurtful comments got noticeably worse in the third year of our relationship, when the dismissive remarks he was used to making to me in private began slipping out in front of company. I'd been in counseling, practicing assertive communication, so it wasn't like I was speaking to him in broken english where he needed to play translator to my broken mind or something. I would find myself confronting him afterwards, trying to use words to get him to understand how hurtful his comments were -- I guess if not for my well-being privately but for how it was impacting me when done publicly. His response was to shut me down for bringing it up, and there were times when he walked away while I stood there, wondering if he really couldn't see that this was hurting me or that it was a dealbreaker for me. Once it crossed the line to him demeaning what I had to say in front of others, other incompatibilities rapidly grew worse too.
I've told him that I'm seriously concerned that we are too incompatible to be together. Whenever I express concerns like this, he gets very upset. I already suspect that he is experiencing some depression right now...
I also had concerns that my ex had depression. While his mom agreed, his dad -- who often seemed to have harsh responses towards his son's emotional concerns -- was not as receptive to the idea. I'm pretty sure the negative dynamic in our relationship had become what my ex experienced with his dad. His dad wouldn't listen either if his son tried to tell him that something had upset or hurt him, and then he would turn around and repeat the behavior with me. I began to fear that if I stayed he would never work on his depression because it was too easy to have me around to blame for it (rather than the emotionally hurtful parent). In the end, I had to appreciate that many people struggle with depression without outsourcing responsibility for it to their loved ones. Even as a "less than" in the relationship, I was not responsible for this. I also had to appreciate that many, many people live with tremendous hurt bestowed by their parents, and may even carry that hurt to the grave because the fear of confronting a parent whose behavior has been hurtful is just so tremendously powerful.
He has said that I should not stay with him just because he loves me or just because it would hurt him for me to leave. But he says he can't help crying when he thinks about us breaking up.
Next time your guy is crying so sadly over the thought of breaking up, trying asking him again about Trayvon Martin or any race-related issue, and watch the masks change. This was an eye-opening experience for me during the breakup conversation with my ex, where he went from teary-eyed heartbreak right back to self-righteous condescension in 2 seconds flat. "Are you bringing that up again?" Like a lightswitch, all signs of affection and empathy were gone. That was a clarion moment which helped me to appreciate how great the divide truly was between us. I have never regretted leaving that relationship, even through the many challenges of breaking up, retaining my financial independence, and being single again. I can listen to music in other languages, read about the news, post comments on websites of similar interest groups, and enjoy myself -- all without being policed in how to do it 'whiter' / 'righter'.
So YMMV of course. However I will say I believe you can do better. You may need to be strong, and maybe even spend time investing in your own sense of identity when you feel you have the freedom within your own home to do so. That is what I ended up doing, and having been through grad school probably empowered me to better appreciate my identity-building research more than any other time in my life. I no longer see my identity as something for some whiter or purer man to tolerate as an irredeemable flaw. Instead it's something similarly identified people, as I'm learning to connect with them, see as quite the enhancing feature. Whoever you are, whatever your connections to the greater world around you are, you definitely can do better. Good luck!
posted by human ecologist at 1:02 AM on October 23, 2016 [101 favorites]
I'm just a white person with no experience in this, but I will say that I don't think he is racist or means to be racist. The Trayvon Martin comment is, uh, pretty weird, but since you've been with this guy five years and apparently haven't really heard any other racist comments, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was reacting to something specific about it and thinking out loud in a dumb way. It sounds like when he knows something bothers you, he apologizes and tries to at least not do the thing that bothers you, even if he doesn't seem to really ever understand why it bothers you (whether he is not doing the research or he is not trying, I don't know). Is he from Sweden by any chance? People in Europe have a whole different view of race than people in the U.S./North America do, and it's really not considered to be as much of a sensitive issue as it is here. Or is he from Canada?
I do think that to me he just sounds argumentative, stubborn, convinced of his own rightness about things and lacking a bit empathy. I know people like this and I find them hard to deal with, and sometimes that can inadvertently veer into territory that is upsetting, although I don't think they intend that. They just push and push and sometimes it goes too far. When he said he enjoys breaking down people's opinions, that rang familiar to me as the kind of people I just don't like hanging out with. It may be that this trait of his, combined with race issues and other difficult points, that are too much.
Mostly everyone here seems to be advising you to leave him, and I wouldn't try to steer you against that. It sounds like this may actually be an inherent personality clash more than anything, and better understanding of black identity or the history of minorities alone may not even fix that. But it could be worth letting him know that this is something he needs to understand if he wants to continue to have you in his life. I think it's ok to want to leave him, and not because he's a horrible racist or you're too sensitive or whatever the counterpoint would be, but because you maybe just aren't a good fit together.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:14 AM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I do think that to me he just sounds argumentative, stubborn, convinced of his own rightness about things and lacking a bit empathy. I know people like this and I find them hard to deal with, and sometimes that can inadvertently veer into territory that is upsetting, although I don't think they intend that. They just push and push and sometimes it goes too far. When he said he enjoys breaking down people's opinions, that rang familiar to me as the kind of people I just don't like hanging out with. It may be that this trait of his, combined with race issues and other difficult points, that are too much.
Mostly everyone here seems to be advising you to leave him, and I wouldn't try to steer you against that. It sounds like this may actually be an inherent personality clash more than anything, and better understanding of black identity or the history of minorities alone may not even fix that. But it could be worth letting him know that this is something he needs to understand if he wants to continue to have you in his life. I think it's ok to want to leave him, and not because he's a horrible racist or you're too sensitive or whatever the counterpoint would be, but because you maybe just aren't a good fit together.
posted by AppleTurnover at 1:14 AM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: You're all very insightful. I'm taking all of this in, though it's difficult.
His parents are from Sweden, but he was born in Canada. He grew up in a white rural community in Canada.
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 1:27 AM on October 23, 2016
His parents are from Sweden, but he was born in Canada. He grew up in a white rural community in Canada.
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 1:27 AM on October 23, 2016
Best answer: Hello dear. I haven't read any of the other answers because guess what, I'm Nigerian and I've been married to a British guy for 39 years. I will just try and put some thoughts down here for you.
* Firstly, except in the UK, the thinking on race in Europe is quite backward ESPECIALLY in the Nordic countries. Not only are their societies are quite homogenous but they don't have a history of colonial exchanges. Their socialism takes them quite far in treating people equally (I'm talking of people of good faith here, not racists) but they can fall down in unexpected contexts! Developing social norms and ideas takes a lot of negotiation and contesting - Britain and America have had this process be part of their polity for much longer than Sweden has.
* Secondly, and I don't exactly hesitate to say this but maybe I should hesitate, it's quite true that plenty of our own ancestors in Nigeria captured and sold slaves. I remember during the events to mark 100 years since abolition of slave trade in UK, a young black reporter went to Bonny to interview some of the old chiefs there. I can't tell you how taken aback and dismayed he was when the old guy said, yes, they made a lot of money and what's more were able to ship away recalcitrant elements in their society!
* Thirdly, the next point your boyfriend made was realy asinine and also completely insensitive to you as a person, and he made it just to score a point. That you shouldn't sympathise with people who were stolen away, drowned, tortured, worked to death? The correct answer to that is, The fuck is wrong with you mate? What kind of monster wouldnt sympathise with them?
So to analyse that particular comment further, it's a gotcha. 'you can't say we white people are so bad, because black people too.' And in fact essentialism (black people this, white people that, tall people are clever, men are not comlicated etc) is not appropriate to apply to human affairs, which are dynamic and contradictory. But what he did with that comment was not refer to that fact but defensively try to implicate you in whatever he was feeling. - holding off on the white guilt.*
* Fourthly, as to your relationship. Some people cry because they are really into drama. I dunno, I wouldn't trust the crying. Ive experienced that quite often when men cry, they are saying WOMAN, LOOK AFTER ME! Actions mean something, crying, you don't know what it means. If he was taking this conflict seriously, apart from crying about it, he would have started educating himself about what's upsetting you.
If you show him the thread, I wonder what his reaction will be? I do think that it's not your job to fix him: this is something where he's not meeting you right, he has to do the work. To me O, it's worth breaking up about. You feel you're not being respected. You come across in your question as a completely reasonable, thoughtful person. He needs to acknowledge that, in your discussions, otherwise he's coming very, very close to gaslighting. Has he met your family? Have you seen him interact with other black people? I will point out that it sounds as if he's already decided not to do the work, what with the crying about you guys breaking up.
To sum up, if he takes you seriously, and undertakes to do some MUCH NEEDED RESEARCH, that is a good sign for your future together. If not, well * shrug*
Also I'm sure other posters can suggest web-available anti-racist texts, which I can't do. But there's not only some very straightforward resources but really challenging academic work as well that it would do him good to read, since he fancies himself an intellectual.
Good luck. Sorry it's not more thorough, I'm posting in a hurry.
* It was particularly specious of him to appropriate the appropriation argument. Look, if you were cold-hearted enough I'm sure you could find topics he takes very personally and tear them to shreds. But would you do that to him though?
posted by glasseyes at 2:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [77 favorites]
* Firstly, except in the UK, the thinking on race in Europe is quite backward ESPECIALLY in the Nordic countries. Not only are their societies are quite homogenous but they don't have a history of colonial exchanges. Their socialism takes them quite far in treating people equally (I'm talking of people of good faith here, not racists) but they can fall down in unexpected contexts! Developing social norms and ideas takes a lot of negotiation and contesting - Britain and America have had this process be part of their polity for much longer than Sweden has.
* Secondly, and I don't exactly hesitate to say this but maybe I should hesitate, it's quite true that plenty of our own ancestors in Nigeria captured and sold slaves. I remember during the events to mark 100 years since abolition of slave trade in UK, a young black reporter went to Bonny to interview some of the old chiefs there. I can't tell you how taken aback and dismayed he was when the old guy said, yes, they made a lot of money and what's more were able to ship away recalcitrant elements in their society!
* Thirdly, the next point your boyfriend made was realy asinine and also completely insensitive to you as a person, and he made it just to score a point. That you shouldn't sympathise with people who were stolen away, drowned, tortured, worked to death? The correct answer to that is, The fuck is wrong with you mate? What kind of monster wouldnt sympathise with them?
So to analyse that particular comment further, it's a gotcha. 'you can't say we white people are so bad, because black people too.' And in fact essentialism (black people this, white people that, tall people are clever, men are not comlicated etc) is not appropriate to apply to human affairs, which are dynamic and contradictory. But what he did with that comment was not refer to that fact but defensively try to implicate you in whatever he was feeling. - holding off on the white guilt.*
* Fourthly, as to your relationship. Some people cry because they are really into drama. I dunno, I wouldn't trust the crying. Ive experienced that quite often when men cry, they are saying WOMAN, LOOK AFTER ME! Actions mean something, crying, you don't know what it means. If he was taking this conflict seriously, apart from crying about it, he would have started educating himself about what's upsetting you.
If you show him the thread, I wonder what his reaction will be? I do think that it's not your job to fix him: this is something where he's not meeting you right, he has to do the work. To me O, it's worth breaking up about. You feel you're not being respected. You come across in your question as a completely reasonable, thoughtful person. He needs to acknowledge that, in your discussions, otherwise he's coming very, very close to gaslighting. Has he met your family? Have you seen him interact with other black people? I will point out that it sounds as if he's already decided not to do the work, what with the crying about you guys breaking up.
To sum up, if he takes you seriously, and undertakes to do some MUCH NEEDED RESEARCH, that is a good sign for your future together. If not, well * shrug*
Also I'm sure other posters can suggest web-available anti-racist texts, which I can't do. But there's not only some very straightforward resources but really challenging academic work as well that it would do him good to read, since he fancies himself an intellectual.
Good luck. Sorry it's not more thorough, I'm posting in a hurry.
* It was particularly specious of him to appropriate the appropriation argument. Look, if you were cold-hearted enough I'm sure you could find topics he takes very personally and tear them to shreds. But would you do that to him though?
posted by glasseyes at 2:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [77 favorites]
Hi!
It sounds like you want to leave this guy but are afraid it will hurt his feelings. It will. But you should do it anyway.
There are more-or-less "woke" white people, white people in interracial marriages who try to listen and learn and feel grateful every day to their partner-of-color for being so strong in a fucked-up world (hi!), and also there are small-minded combatative grad student-y white people who do know know and do not want to know what privilege is. the problem isn't that your partner is white... it's that he's a superior know-it-all who doesn't want to be a good friend to his girlfriend. The best way for you to teach this guy what privilege isn't to hold his hand and try to "convince" him that black people have shorter lifespan than white people because the effects of living in a racist world are so stressful and damaging WHICH IS SCIENCE AND ONE GOOGLE SEARCH AWAY. It is to tell him this as you walk away.
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:06 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you want to leave this guy but are afraid it will hurt his feelings. It will. But you should do it anyway.
There are more-or-less "woke" white people, white people in interracial marriages who try to listen and learn and feel grateful every day to their partner-of-color for being so strong in a fucked-up world (hi!), and also there are small-minded combatative grad student-y white people who do know know and do not want to know what privilege is. the problem isn't that your partner is white... it's that he's a superior know-it-all who doesn't want to be a good friend to his girlfriend. The best way for you to teach this guy what privilege isn't to hold his hand and try to "convince" him that black people have shorter lifespan than white people because the effects of living in a racist world are so stressful and damaging WHICH IS SCIENCE AND ONE GOOGLE SEARCH AWAY. It is to tell him this as you walk away.
posted by athirstforsalt at 2:06 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Only you can decide whether to stay or leave or how compatible or not you two are because only you know what is important to you and how much. But, I wanted to share a few thoughts that may be less directly relevant.
I don't know how old this man is but he comes across as fairly immature and childish. The reason I say this is because of he is "addicted to breaking down people's ideas and opinions", "debating". There is a time and place for a robust debate and knowing how and when to not cross a certain line and being mean or disrespectful to your friends or family is a mark of maturity, and compassion. If he hasn't figured this out by now, it is certainly not your emotional load to help him do so. So, instead of approaching it as "How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful?", I'd go for "Honey, we are going to see a couples counsellor because I feel hurt, upset and disrespected at comments you've made in the past and continue to be made, and I find this very disturbing". It is his work to get a grip on what he is doing wrong and change it- you are not going to make him change. Also, in a healthy debate/argument/discussion, there should be room for holding different opinions, for agreeing to disagree and being non-judgemental to those whose opinions are strikingly and uncomfortably different from our own.
I would also re-assess the relationship in terms of how respected you feel and how respectable the relationship feels. Getting upset and crying over the possibility of the demise of a relationship are valid feelings but not changing the behaviours/patterns and THEN doing this is a cat and mouse chase that is not going to end. You've got to pick one and then not complain about the other.
posted by xm at 2:07 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know how old this man is but he comes across as fairly immature and childish. The reason I say this is because of he is "addicted to breaking down people's ideas and opinions", "debating". There is a time and place for a robust debate and knowing how and when to not cross a certain line and being mean or disrespectful to your friends or family is a mark of maturity, and compassion. If he hasn't figured this out by now, it is certainly not your emotional load to help him do so. So, instead of approaching it as "How can I explain why the comments he made are so hurtful?", I'd go for "Honey, we are going to see a couples counsellor because I feel hurt, upset and disrespected at comments you've made in the past and continue to be made, and I find this very disturbing". It is his work to get a grip on what he is doing wrong and change it- you are not going to make him change. Also, in a healthy debate/argument/discussion, there should be room for holding different opinions, for agreeing to disagree and being non-judgemental to those whose opinions are strikingly and uncomfortably different from our own.
I would also re-assess the relationship in terms of how respected you feel and how respectable the relationship feels. Getting upset and crying over the possibility of the demise of a relationship are valid feelings but not changing the behaviours/patterns and THEN doing this is a cat and mouse chase that is not going to end. You've got to pick one and then not complain about the other.
posted by xm at 2:07 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, I see he wasn't born in Sweden. Well then, he has even less of an excuse. Canada has its own heavy racism issues. What's he like on them?
There are plenty of fish in the sea, that crying doesn't mean as much as you think. The crying shouldn't really influence your thinking here.
posted by glasseyes at 2:16 AM on October 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
There are plenty of fish in the sea, that crying doesn't mean as much as you think. The crying shouldn't really influence your thinking here.
posted by glasseyes at 2:16 AM on October 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
When you talked about argument as a "debate" and the mean "jokes" I was like - wow, I know this type of guy. I don't even want to be friends with someone who pulls the "You're ugly! Just Kidding. Love Ya!" bullshit. That combined with the "debating" just shows this person is all about power. They're all about winning. They're all about being "right" through "logic" and their own "knowledge" ignoring "dumb emotions" anything else just so they can win.
Then you said he's a history major and I literally laughed out loud. Most of the people I met like that were into history or sociology or other things they would deem "higher" intellectually. (Obviously, most people in those studies are not like that, but in my experience it draws in these "want to be right and smarter than you" people.)
So like I said, I wouldn't even want to be friends with someone like this. Let alone date them. That doesn't even START to tackle the race element. But this behavior is going to happen with EVERYTHING even if he suddenly understood your viewpoint about race.
This guy doesn't care about your experience. He cares about points and "winning". Nothing you do will change that. And having endless conversations like that is exhausting!
It's one thing to say "hey, you've been more into [blah] movement lately, why is that?" Which, my husband asked me about being more vocal about equality and feminism. I explained that now I had the words to describe my experiences and realized that I faced a lot of issues that I didn't even realize were based in inequality and now I can recognize those situations. He was happy to hear my answer and hear my stories and believes me about my experiences.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
Then you said he's a history major and I literally laughed out loud. Most of the people I met like that were into history or sociology or other things they would deem "higher" intellectually. (Obviously, most people in those studies are not like that, but in my experience it draws in these "want to be right and smarter than you" people.)
So like I said, I wouldn't even want to be friends with someone like this. Let alone date them. That doesn't even START to tackle the race element. But this behavior is going to happen with EVERYTHING even if he suddenly understood your viewpoint about race.
This guy doesn't care about your experience. He cares about points and "winning". Nothing you do will change that. And having endless conversations like that is exhausting!
It's one thing to say "hey, you've been more into [blah] movement lately, why is that?" Which, my husband asked me about being more vocal about equality and feminism. I explained that now I had the words to describe my experiences and realized that I faced a lot of issues that I didn't even realize were based in inequality and now I can recognize those situations. He was happy to hear my answer and hear my stories and believes me about my experiences.
posted by Crystalinne at 2:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [28 favorites]
I completely concur with much of the excellent advice you have received above about how unacceptable this behaviour is.
In addition, I think it's also important to point out that your boyfriend sounds as if he is clinically depressed. If you want to address the racial issue (as it seems you want to), I think you'll get further if you both address his depression too. If he is happier, he will be in a better position to change his unacceptable behaviour. Hammering away at this issue while he's already feeling pretty low is likely to just make him feel more inadequate and end up being counter-productive.
I also want to point out that it is not normally the job of POC to educate and 'fix' white people's failings on the issue of race relations, but in this case it sounds like he is also a person who you love and who needs some help more generally right now.
Good luck. Remember that if you can get this right, and both of you can learn from the painful experience, you will have a template to help you in your relationship for the rest of your lives.
posted by matthew.alexander at 2:41 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
In addition, I think it's also important to point out that your boyfriend sounds as if he is clinically depressed. If you want to address the racial issue (as it seems you want to), I think you'll get further if you both address his depression too. If he is happier, he will be in a better position to change his unacceptable behaviour. Hammering away at this issue while he's already feeling pretty low is likely to just make him feel more inadequate and end up being counter-productive.
I also want to point out that it is not normally the job of POC to educate and 'fix' white people's failings on the issue of race relations, but in this case it sounds like he is also a person who you love and who needs some help more generally right now.
Good luck. Remember that if you can get this right, and both of you can learn from the painful experience, you will have a template to help you in your relationship for the rest of your lives.
posted by matthew.alexander at 2:41 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
He grew up in a white rural community in Canada.
I am, perhaps, similar to your boyfriend, in that I grew up in a super-white, super homogenous area of rural Australia. My partner is Vietnamese-Australian, and came here as a refugee in the eighties.
Going into my relationship with her, I knew jack shit about her lived experience and culture. I wasn't opposed to it; I just didn't know anything about it. The first time she spoke to her parents on the phone in front of me, she talked to them in Vietnamese, and I was amazed (I just assumed, lol, that pretty much everyone who lived in Australia for say ten years or more spoke perfect english as a choice. Essentially, everyone was white people with different coloured skin, if you know what I mean. Cut me some slack, I was a dumb kid!).
Our lives together - going on, sheesh, 12/13 years now - have been a shared experience of cultural exchange. Ignorance on both sides has led to some speed bumps at times, but you know, no more than many non-racial assumptions you may make about a person.
What I'm trying to get at is that ignorance is not a problem, per se. I've learnt a lot about Vietnamese culture and Viet families, and she's learnt a lot about uptight wasp culture and families. And we're still learning. The real issue - and the issue you call out in your post - is about respect. I would never, never try to lecture her on Viet culture, how much I know about it, its' rightness or wrongness on matters (good natured joshing does occur both ways at times. I think this is a feature in many cross cultural relationships).
I respect her culture, her family, their way of life and beliefs - whether I share them or not. Your boyfriend's cultural myopia is disrespectful to you, your culture, your blackness. Wtf is a white boy from canada doing lecturing a black person about black identity as it pertains to slavery? Good lord. You have been together for long enough that this attitude should not still be prevalent. It doesn't take a psychotherapist to realise - especially given what you said - that slavery and its issues could well be an emotionally charged one for you.
And for me, this ties into your boyfriend's fear of you leaving him. From what you're describing your boyfriend is orientated around himself very strongly. His feelings and despair at the prospect of you leaving; his desire to argue or "debate" with people regardless of their feelings and sensitivities. He seems to struggle with considering what other people are thinking or feeling, and struggle with the fact his position may not be right, or valid, or even relevant. Low self esteem can certainly drive this beahaviour... but you're not his therapist.
Going into this question I was like "Oh boy, mefites can be so black and white [ha] with this stuff. I always feel bad for the absent partners in these questions..." - But I think you're right to be upset, and I it sounds like you recognise there is a broader dynamic at play here than a few wrong words in a few incidents.
Lots of cross-cultural couples work. But that respect component is essential I think. I'm not sure you've got it here, and I'm not sure you can get it, either.
Best of luck buddy.
posted by smoke at 4:04 AM on October 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
I am, perhaps, similar to your boyfriend, in that I grew up in a super-white, super homogenous area of rural Australia. My partner is Vietnamese-Australian, and came here as a refugee in the eighties.
Going into my relationship with her, I knew jack shit about her lived experience and culture. I wasn't opposed to it; I just didn't know anything about it. The first time she spoke to her parents on the phone in front of me, she talked to them in Vietnamese, and I was amazed (I just assumed, lol, that pretty much everyone who lived in Australia for say ten years or more spoke perfect english as a choice. Essentially, everyone was white people with different coloured skin, if you know what I mean. Cut me some slack, I was a dumb kid!).
Our lives together - going on, sheesh, 12/13 years now - have been a shared experience of cultural exchange. Ignorance on both sides has led to some speed bumps at times, but you know, no more than many non-racial assumptions you may make about a person.
What I'm trying to get at is that ignorance is not a problem, per se. I've learnt a lot about Vietnamese culture and Viet families, and she's learnt a lot about uptight wasp culture and families. And we're still learning. The real issue - and the issue you call out in your post - is about respect. I would never, never try to lecture her on Viet culture, how much I know about it, its' rightness or wrongness on matters (good natured joshing does occur both ways at times. I think this is a feature in many cross cultural relationships).
I respect her culture, her family, their way of life and beliefs - whether I share them or not. Your boyfriend's cultural myopia is disrespectful to you, your culture, your blackness. Wtf is a white boy from canada doing lecturing a black person about black identity as it pertains to slavery? Good lord. You have been together for long enough that this attitude should not still be prevalent. It doesn't take a psychotherapist to realise - especially given what you said - that slavery and its issues could well be an emotionally charged one for you.
And for me, this ties into your boyfriend's fear of you leaving him. From what you're describing your boyfriend is orientated around himself very strongly. His feelings and despair at the prospect of you leaving; his desire to argue or "debate" with people regardless of their feelings and sensitivities. He seems to struggle with considering what other people are thinking or feeling, and struggle with the fact his position may not be right, or valid, or even relevant. Low self esteem can certainly drive this beahaviour... but you're not his therapist.
Going into this question I was like "Oh boy, mefites can be so black and white [ha] with this stuff. I always feel bad for the absent partners in these questions..." - But I think you're right to be upset, and I it sounds like you recognise there is a broader dynamic at play here than a few wrong words in a few incidents.
Lots of cross-cultural couples work. But that respect component is essential I think. I'm not sure you've got it here, and I'm not sure you can get it, either.
Best of luck buddy.
posted by smoke at 4:04 AM on October 23, 2016 [26 favorites]
Best answer: Though my experience doesn't concern race, I did date a man with many of the same characteristics you have laid out here. He lived to argue, and he ran down my chosen area of study constantly, even after I expressed how much this was upsetting to me. I found myself in hurtful fights with him on a daily basis. I did finally break up with him (over cheating. I guess just being condescended to constantly wasn't enough to convince me to leave).
Many years later, I find myself married to him. He is one of the most changed people I have ever met, and we simply don't communicate like that anymore. We have, however, discussed our old relationship quite a bit, and he has told me what was going on with him at that time. He states that he was depressed and self-hating, and he felt most engaged in our relationship when we were fighting. He met the whole world that way--being antagonistic was his way of connecting. Feeling smarter than and that he was winning points was a temporary and false boost of his esteem.
I'm so glad that my husband has grown and changed so much for the better. It certainly can happen. But there is NO WAY I would have wanted to be with him during that period of growth. It wasn't my job to educate him how to be a better person, or to be his therapist. In fact, had we stayed together, I doubt he would have made such great strides, and I would have been far less mentally healthy myself.
You deserve--we ALL deserve!--partners who are whole within themselves and who are empathic adults in our relationships with them. You might try couples therapy, but it sounds like he has issues to work on himself, and he may not be able to be in a relationship while he does so. You are certainly not obligated to be in a relationship with someone taking out their esteem issues on you. Good luck. you deserve a wonderful relationship.
posted by thebrokedown at 4:35 AM on October 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Many years later, I find myself married to him. He is one of the most changed people I have ever met, and we simply don't communicate like that anymore. We have, however, discussed our old relationship quite a bit, and he has told me what was going on with him at that time. He states that he was depressed and self-hating, and he felt most engaged in our relationship when we were fighting. He met the whole world that way--being antagonistic was his way of connecting. Feeling smarter than and that he was winning points was a temporary and false boost of his esteem.
I'm so glad that my husband has grown and changed so much for the better. It certainly can happen. But there is NO WAY I would have wanted to be with him during that period of growth. It wasn't my job to educate him how to be a better person, or to be his therapist. In fact, had we stayed together, I doubt he would have made such great strides, and I would have been far less mentally healthy myself.
You deserve--we ALL deserve!--partners who are whole within themselves and who are empathic adults in our relationships with them. You might try couples therapy, but it sounds like he has issues to work on himself, and he may not be able to be in a relationship while he does so. You are certainly not obligated to be in a relationship with someone taking out their esteem issues on you. Good luck. you deserve a wonderful relationship.
posted by thebrokedown at 4:35 AM on October 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
(I didn't intend to dismiss racial issues and racism as a big part of your relationship issues with my answer. I know that it is fraught and brings a whole other layer of difficulty to your relationship. Your question just resonated with me, and I wanted to express that just as it wasn't my job to fix my boyfriend, i don't feel it should be your job to lead yours to "wokeness." Much luck to you, Hummingbird)
posted by thebrokedown at 4:50 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by thebrokedown at 4:50 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm basically you, and my ex is very much like your fiance. A lot of other people have already astutely said that the issue is less about his being woke than it is about how dismissive he is; I'll second that. I don't think your fiance is a closet racist so much as he is a contrarian with little empathy, which might be harder to work with in a long-term relationship. Why?
Sometimes people like this also think that when others express a lived experience that is both negative and hard for them to verify or relate to, that makes the other person negative or bad themselves. The more you talk to him about stuff that he doesn't get, the more he'll believe you're an undesirable and negative person. I recall my ex calling my Facebook posting habits alienating if I (occasionally, like 2x/month) posted anything on race or class issues. In their eyes, you stop being a nice and fun person if you're aware of what's important to you.
Counterintuitively, he may think you're worse if you try to explain or provide resources. He doesn't really want to know, and you'll just come across as hardheaded and annoying. In fact, he may only be able to be led to wokeness by someone who has less of an emotional stake in it (i.e. not his fiancee, and not a POC, to be honest).
It's one thing to stay with someone who simply lacks your frame of reference; staying with someone who's actively hostile to it is a different matter altogether. You may be better off with someone who can set their contrarianism aside when it's socially worthwhile, and he may be better suited to a partner who is either apolitical or has a lived experience more similar to his. Best of luck with this, no matter what you decide.
posted by blerghamot at 4:59 AM on October 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
Sometimes people like this also think that when others express a lived experience that is both negative and hard for them to verify or relate to, that makes the other person negative or bad themselves. The more you talk to him about stuff that he doesn't get, the more he'll believe you're an undesirable and negative person. I recall my ex calling my Facebook posting habits alienating if I (occasionally, like 2x/month) posted anything on race or class issues. In their eyes, you stop being a nice and fun person if you're aware of what's important to you.
Counterintuitively, he may think you're worse if you try to explain or provide resources. He doesn't really want to know, and you'll just come across as hardheaded and annoying. In fact, he may only be able to be led to wokeness by someone who has less of an emotional stake in it (i.e. not his fiancee, and not a POC, to be honest).
It's one thing to stay with someone who simply lacks your frame of reference; staying with someone who's actively hostile to it is a different matter altogether. You may be better off with someone who can set their contrarianism aside when it's socially worthwhile, and he may be better suited to a partner who is either apolitical or has a lived experience more similar to his. Best of luck with this, no matter what you decide.
posted by blerghamot at 4:59 AM on October 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
When you begin to love someone, you also begin to see where they are hurt, and where they are vulnerable.
You begin to see what their "buttons" are.
When you truly love someone, you do not touch their buttons.
When they truly love you, they do not touch yours.
This is respect, this is being a mature adult.
This is love.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 5:32 AM on October 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
You begin to see what their "buttons" are.
When you truly love someone, you do not touch their buttons.
When they truly love you, they do not touch yours.
This is respect, this is being a mature adult.
This is love.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 5:32 AM on October 23, 2016 [22 favorites]
I'm a white woman married to a black woman, and those are horrible, shitty, racist things to say. Those are the crappy kneejerk things that my older relatives say while in the same breath they're insisting that they love my wife. Those are the kneejerk responses I get from freshmen who are saying that they have had a horrible life so there can't be systematic racism in the U.S. And that when he says those things and is called out, he doesn't apologize but doubles down? No.
I've said shitty racist things, not thinking about what I was saying to her, and I've apologized profusely when called out. We talk frankly about race, because that's all you can do in our situation. But we do it kindly, instead of baiting each other and trying to cut each other down.
My ex did the same thing with getting angry when I didn't like the same things as him, didn't care for his music, didn't like a TV show he did. Instead of "here, I like this thing, try it" it was "how can you possibly not like this thing there's something wrong with you". I put away parts of myself until there wasn't much left. It's not like that now, and it shouldn't be.
posted by joycehealy at 5:33 AM on October 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
I've said shitty racist things, not thinking about what I was saying to her, and I've apologized profusely when called out. We talk frankly about race, because that's all you can do in our situation. But we do it kindly, instead of baiting each other and trying to cut each other down.
My ex did the same thing with getting angry when I didn't like the same things as him, didn't care for his music, didn't like a TV show he did. Instead of "here, I like this thing, try it" it was "how can you possibly not like this thing there's something wrong with you". I put away parts of myself until there wasn't much left. It's not like that now, and it shouldn't be.
posted by joycehealy at 5:33 AM on October 23, 2016 [10 favorites]
Your boyfriend is saying racist things. He can learn how to stop saying/believing racist things. He might start by reading all of the questions with the tag "racism" here at askme. This thread, for example, has a bunch of starter links.
He won't learn this all at once. He won't learn it at all unless he's doing the work himself. You can't make him learn it, nor should you have to.
If he wants to save the relationship, he needs to learn, of his own free will and effort. Hell, if he wants to be a decent person he needs to learn.
As for you- standard askme advice. Is what you get out of the relationship worth what you put into it? This could be a poop milkshake situation.
posted by nat at 6:09 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
He won't learn this all at once. He won't learn it at all unless he's doing the work himself. You can't make him learn it, nor should you have to.
If he wants to save the relationship, he needs to learn, of his own free will and effort. Hell, if he wants to be a decent person he needs to learn.
As for you- standard askme advice. Is what you get out of the relationship worth what you put into it? This could be a poop milkshake situation.
posted by nat at 6:09 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm just a white person with no experience in this, but I will say that I don't think he is racist or means to be racist.
I am also a white person. Your partner is totally racist.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:45 AM on October 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
I am also a white person. Your partner is totally racist.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:45 AM on October 23, 2016 [36 favorites]
I was about to write a whole thing about how Europeans relationship to race is different than the North American one, but if he was raised in Canada, that argument kind of goes out the window. Yes, the history of racism and discrimination is different in Europe, and while there are still huge issues to overcome, it has a different path than North America. Him being of Swedish descent has nothing to do with it if he was raised in Canada.
I have been in a relationship with a guy from a different religion, and had similar experiences (him being insensitive, making "jokes"...). That relationship ending was one of the best things that happened to me.
posted by troytroy at 6:57 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have been in a relationship with a guy from a different religion, and had similar experiences (him being insensitive, making "jokes"...). That relationship ending was one of the best things that happened to me.
posted by troytroy at 6:57 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: With all due respect, I disagree with Major Matt Mason Dixon's conclusion and think thebrokedown's anecdote is more on the money.
It's true that the intimacy of relationship inevitably surfaces what is vulnerable, hurt, and unhealed in each partner. Intentionally using that knowledge of your partner to attack is sadistic and cruel, but on the other hand, avoiding them altogether is ultimately a losing strategy too. Where long relationships get bogged down, as they almost inevitably do, is at the juncture where both peoples' coping skills are weakest.
Maturing through love means *confronting one's own* weak spots and vulnerabilities and growing to heal them. The simple fact is that people don't really know or understand their own weak spots and vulnerabilities until they get into those intense relationship tangles. OP, I think that's where both of you are; after five years, that's about right.
Complicating things further is that what is often the problem is the "flip side" of qualities that are in some ways good and helpful and, at the root, emotionally protective. For instance, in the OP, the boyfriend is likely smart, confident, a strong critical thinker, etc, etc., all fine qualities and important for his life and success in the world. They're his way of moving through the world, and a big element underneath that is remaining emotionally safe in a challenging world, so he thinks he can just apply that same toolkit in his relationship with the OP. And it is very likely if they're young academics together, she finds that really appealing about him in intellectual or work contexts... but it's totally inappropriate in emotional contexts and fails spectacularly there.
OP, I'd encourage you to reflect a bit on what might be your coping mechanisms, your ways of being in the world, that work very well most of the time, but are not serving you well here. A suggestion--it's a common one, many women do this--is to be very good at coping with your own emotional upset. A little too good. If you're a young, successful WOC, I'll bet you have gotten very, very accustomed to not letting the bastards get you down; when you encounter someone being stupid or insulting or clueless or whatever, you are probably so practiced at just getting past that shit because you have to, to move through the world. And you need to do that, and it's a hugely valuable and productive coping skill, and it serves you very well in lots of different ways. But if you bring that coping skill into your relationship, then what you find is that the insults have to be really very severe to pass the threshold into being objectionable. Like, someone being disdainful and insulting about aspects that are core to your very being. Of course the anecdotes you describe are really hurtful and awful... and it's very likely that the patterns of interaction you're describing here have been at work about other issues in your relationship too, but because of your coping skills, you were able to handle those, because of the ways that you know how to cope.
I say these things not to blame the victim, but to say that these kinds of stuck points are always a two person dance. It's important to see what he does, and you can't control that; but it's also a really valuable, if painful, opportunity to reflect on how you came to be in this dynamic, to learn about yourself.
So what can you do? I say, stand firm; you know that this is not something you can back down on or concede, that there's no way you can build a life together with him if he will not treat you with more kindness and respect, and show humility about things he really does not know or (yet) understand. I say, have empathy for his struggle, but not more than you have for your own. His sadness in this struggle does not make you a bad person.
You fear losing him, his love, the wonderful things about your relationship; however, with what you have recently come to understand, you know that those beautiful visions aren't really quite what you thought they'd be, won't come true the way you hoped they would. That's really hard to let go of. But the truth is: unless he himself changes and grows, *of his own initiative and volition*, to be more in alignment with what you thought were true--his deep love and respect for you--then you will be settling for a life with him, where you have accepted poor treatment by him.
Please don't do that.
Stay steady, demand the respect and empathy you deserve. Take a little space to get clarity about what are the limits of time/logistics where you'll need to come to a definitive answer about whether you break the engagement. Hold firm. Don't do the emotional labor for both of you. See how he grows or not according to this challenge.
Best of luck.
posted by Sublimity at 7:12 AM on October 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
It's true that the intimacy of relationship inevitably surfaces what is vulnerable, hurt, and unhealed in each partner. Intentionally using that knowledge of your partner to attack is sadistic and cruel, but on the other hand, avoiding them altogether is ultimately a losing strategy too. Where long relationships get bogged down, as they almost inevitably do, is at the juncture where both peoples' coping skills are weakest.
Maturing through love means *confronting one's own* weak spots and vulnerabilities and growing to heal them. The simple fact is that people don't really know or understand their own weak spots and vulnerabilities until they get into those intense relationship tangles. OP, I think that's where both of you are; after five years, that's about right.
Complicating things further is that what is often the problem is the "flip side" of qualities that are in some ways good and helpful and, at the root, emotionally protective. For instance, in the OP, the boyfriend is likely smart, confident, a strong critical thinker, etc, etc., all fine qualities and important for his life and success in the world. They're his way of moving through the world, and a big element underneath that is remaining emotionally safe in a challenging world, so he thinks he can just apply that same toolkit in his relationship with the OP. And it is very likely if they're young academics together, she finds that really appealing about him in intellectual or work contexts... but it's totally inappropriate in emotional contexts and fails spectacularly there.
OP, I'd encourage you to reflect a bit on what might be your coping mechanisms, your ways of being in the world, that work very well most of the time, but are not serving you well here. A suggestion--it's a common one, many women do this--is to be very good at coping with your own emotional upset. A little too good. If you're a young, successful WOC, I'll bet you have gotten very, very accustomed to not letting the bastards get you down; when you encounter someone being stupid or insulting or clueless or whatever, you are probably so practiced at just getting past that shit because you have to, to move through the world. And you need to do that, and it's a hugely valuable and productive coping skill, and it serves you very well in lots of different ways. But if you bring that coping skill into your relationship, then what you find is that the insults have to be really very severe to pass the threshold into being objectionable. Like, someone being disdainful and insulting about aspects that are core to your very being. Of course the anecdotes you describe are really hurtful and awful... and it's very likely that the patterns of interaction you're describing here have been at work about other issues in your relationship too, but because of your coping skills, you were able to handle those, because of the ways that you know how to cope.
I say these things not to blame the victim, but to say that these kinds of stuck points are always a two person dance. It's important to see what he does, and you can't control that; but it's also a really valuable, if painful, opportunity to reflect on how you came to be in this dynamic, to learn about yourself.
So what can you do? I say, stand firm; you know that this is not something you can back down on or concede, that there's no way you can build a life together with him if he will not treat you with more kindness and respect, and show humility about things he really does not know or (yet) understand. I say, have empathy for his struggle, but not more than you have for your own. His sadness in this struggle does not make you a bad person.
You fear losing him, his love, the wonderful things about your relationship; however, with what you have recently come to understand, you know that those beautiful visions aren't really quite what you thought they'd be, won't come true the way you hoped they would. That's really hard to let go of. But the truth is: unless he himself changes and grows, *of his own initiative and volition*, to be more in alignment with what you thought were true--his deep love and respect for you--then you will be settling for a life with him, where you have accepted poor treatment by him.
Please don't do that.
Stay steady, demand the respect and empathy you deserve. Take a little space to get clarity about what are the limits of time/logistics where you'll need to come to a definitive answer about whether you break the engagement. Hold firm. Don't do the emotional labor for both of you. See how he grows or not according to this challenge.
Best of luck.
posted by Sublimity at 7:12 AM on October 23, 2016 [19 favorites]
I am white and grew up in rural Canada with 100% white people. This kind of toxic ignorance is pervasive in Canadian white communities.
Unlearning racism (and misogyny and misogynoir) is a lifelong effort, but we have to actually make a conscious effort and be open to the fact that we say wrong hurtful things without meaning to, and we have to do our own work to deal with our own white fragility.
This is his work to do and you cannot coax him or teach him into it if he does not choose to endure the discomfort of it. You cannot make yourself small enough or palatable enough.
I wish for you a partner who will see you, fully, and create room for you to grow and flourish in safety and love.
posted by sadmadglad at 7:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
Unlearning racism (and misogyny and misogynoir) is a lifelong effort, but we have to actually make a conscious effort and be open to the fact that we say wrong hurtful things without meaning to, and we have to do our own work to deal with our own white fragility.
This is his work to do and you cannot coax him or teach him into it if he does not choose to endure the discomfort of it. You cannot make yourself small enough or palatable enough.
I wish for you a partner who will see you, fully, and create room for you to grow and flourish in safety and love.
posted by sadmadglad at 7:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [8 favorites]
For example, he has told me a few times that i have "no imagination" (because I don't like to play a computer game that he plays, and I don't understand a particular movie that he loves.) He also dismissed my strong interest in a certain political candidate, who I wanted to campaign for; he told me I was only "suddenly" interested in politics because I'm "having an identity crisis"
Ugh. UGH. I am white. I am not a psych-anything. Not in order of importance here, but in my book, your boyfriend is a misogynist and an asshole and a racist and an emotional and verbal abuser. He certainly does enjoy making you feel badly about yourself. As a matter of fact, I think he is so misogynist and racist that he is in a relationship with a you, a female POC, so he can take out his misogynist, racist shittery on you. The smaller he can make you feel, the better he can feel about himself. Think about how great he must feel about himself that a person he argues with, belittles, makes fun of, condescends to, tunes out, dismisses, etc., still loves him and wants to be in a relationship with him. Therapy or bye.
posted by the webmistress at 7:39 AM on October 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
Ugh. UGH. I am white. I am not a psych-anything. Not in order of importance here, but in my book, your boyfriend is a misogynist and an asshole and a racist and an emotional and verbal abuser. He certainly does enjoy making you feel badly about yourself. As a matter of fact, I think he is so misogynist and racist that he is in a relationship with a you, a female POC, so he can take out his misogynist, racist shittery on you. The smaller he can make you feel, the better he can feel about himself. Think about how great he must feel about himself that a person he argues with, belittles, makes fun of, condescends to, tunes out, dismisses, etc., still loves him and wants to be in a relationship with him. Therapy or bye.
posted by the webmistress at 7:39 AM on October 23, 2016 [13 favorites]
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
What he's saying here is that he doesn't take your worldview seriously. He thinks he knows more, and that the ongoing impacts of racism, slavery, and colonialism aren't something he's willing to acknowledge even when you, his partner of several years, tell him about your life and perspectives. People who "want to be convinced" are generally unwilling to see the evidence in front of them and unable to empathize with what the ongoing impacts of historical oppression might be, and no amount of information will actually convince them. It's just a way to say that they know better than you about your life, and it's gaslighting.
I'm white, and have had to level up about race a lot. I'm a woman, and a lesbian, and have had to help my friends level up on those issues a lot. The things your partner is saying to you are the kinds of things that would make me walk away from someone - as said above, talking about black-on-black crime as a response to Trayvon Martin's tragic murder is racist as all hell. Dismissing your perspective on the ongoing impacts of slavery by noting that there were black people involved in the slave trade is a nonsensical and massively insensitive thing to say.
Beyond that, it's okay for two people who love each other to not love the same movies or games or books, and it's not okay to get mean about it. Overall it sounds like he is not very nice to you except when he wants something, and when you open up to him about what's going on with you he finds that inconvenient and gets mean so he doesn't have to deal with it.
Don't waste more of your time on him.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:54 AM on October 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
What he's saying here is that he doesn't take your worldview seriously. He thinks he knows more, and that the ongoing impacts of racism, slavery, and colonialism aren't something he's willing to acknowledge even when you, his partner of several years, tell him about your life and perspectives. People who "want to be convinced" are generally unwilling to see the evidence in front of them and unable to empathize with what the ongoing impacts of historical oppression might be, and no amount of information will actually convince them. It's just a way to say that they know better than you about your life, and it's gaslighting.
I'm white, and have had to level up about race a lot. I'm a woman, and a lesbian, and have had to help my friends level up on those issues a lot. The things your partner is saying to you are the kinds of things that would make me walk away from someone - as said above, talking about black-on-black crime as a response to Trayvon Martin's tragic murder is racist as all hell. Dismissing your perspective on the ongoing impacts of slavery by noting that there were black people involved in the slave trade is a nonsensical and massively insensitive thing to say.
Beyond that, it's okay for two people who love each other to not love the same movies or games or books, and it's not okay to get mean about it. Overall it sounds like he is not very nice to you except when he wants something, and when you open up to him about what's going on with you he finds that inconvenient and gets mean so he doesn't have to deal with it.
Don't waste more of your time on him.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:54 AM on October 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm white and this relates tangentially but I thought it might give you a window...I'm also bi...in early days of dating my small-town Canadian of Swedish descent, raised Catholic, husband, he made a homophobic remark to me. I challenged him on it. A few months later he shared some thinking he had done about it and a year later we were at Pride together and he has been a fierce advocate. The reason he did that was...he listened to me and regarded my opinion highly, and still does, even when we don't agree.
You deserve that in a partner.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:54 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
You deserve that in a partner.
posted by warriorqueen at 7:54 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
He does not realise that it's you who needs convincing. Unsalvageable, I think.
He's a contrarian but he seems to be very much pleased with the most anti-intelectual cliche racist ideas around (i.e., "what about African enslaving other Africans, what about black-on-black crime?").
Also, what others said: on top of the racism, he's not even trying to be kind to you.
I'm a WOC, and I would run.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 8:08 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
He does not realise that it's you who needs convincing. Unsalvageable, I think.
He's a contrarian but he seems to be very much pleased with the most anti-intelectual cliche racist ideas around (i.e., "what about African enslaving other Africans, what about black-on-black crime?").
Also, what others said: on top of the racism, he's not even trying to be kind to you.
I'm a WOC, and I would run.
posted by TheGoodBlood at 8:08 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Maybe the best thing you could do is move on, find someone with whom you don't have such a painful sticking point. But, my personal experience, and my best guess from observation, is that all relationships hit a patch that is so difficult it feels hopeless. Then, when one partner has a moment of optimism: maybe I could alter my approach, maybe get past the difficulty-- it feels like such an uphill battle, they wonder if it's worth it or how they could possibly find the energy necessary to practice patience, to do the emotional labor, to sit with the pain and anger even longer.
I'm a white American lady, FWIW, and something that's been helpful in my life is feeling no rush to get married, no desire to have children, no pressure to have things/status/whatever that is afforded by two people in partnership. I've been comfortable about taking my time. I mean, if you can't stand being around your fiance, you could give yourself space from him, right? It wouldn't be the end of the world. Give him room to grow. Date other people. If he doesn't like it, that's his problem, you prefer the company of others to his exclusive company, maybe. (Or just take space. You don't have to date anybody.)
There's no shortage of love between you two, perhaps, and he seems a bit ignorant, but ignorance itself isn't so much a problem-- It looks to me like a communication and honesty problem. If the love and respect is there, it seems to me that speaking honestly and really listening to each other would solve the problem. Easier said than done. /my simple humble two cents.
posted by little_dog_laughing at 8:37 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a white American lady, FWIW, and something that's been helpful in my life is feeling no rush to get married, no desire to have children, no pressure to have things/status/whatever that is afforded by two people in partnership. I've been comfortable about taking my time. I mean, if you can't stand being around your fiance, you could give yourself space from him, right? It wouldn't be the end of the world. Give him room to grow. Date other people. If he doesn't like it, that's his problem, you prefer the company of others to his exclusive company, maybe. (Or just take space. You don't have to date anybody.)
There's no shortage of love between you two, perhaps, and he seems a bit ignorant, but ignorance itself isn't so much a problem-- It looks to me like a communication and honesty problem. If the love and respect is there, it seems to me that speaking honestly and really listening to each other would solve the problem. Easier said than done. /my simple humble two cents.
posted by little_dog_laughing at 8:37 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's not you that's incompatible. It's him.
Racism is certainly at play here, but I'd go so far as to say that this person does not respect you, period, and IMHO he'd do this with anyone, regardless of race. He'd find something to tear them down. His pseudo-intellectualism, his arrogance, his racist beliefs and complete lack of awareness of his own white privilege all hijack whatever little empathy he may have (at least, when it comes to you).
I put away parts of myself until there wasn't much left. It's not like that now, and it shouldn't be.
I think this is so astute, in addition to all the insightful comments you've received upthread. This one in particular struck me, because it reminded me of the silent, unconscious phenomenon that happens between people that easily becomes toxic without real communication and empathy. It goes like this: someone says something to you, and it's upsetting, maybe you argue a bit about it, but it's resolved and you move on. If, however, you have the kind of relationship that you describe above, with this constant baiting and power plays, you get habituated. You just get tired of trying to explain X to this person, tired of fighting. Maybe you start to think you're the problem. That energy goes somewhere, and it zaps your vitality. Now it's toxic. It's an ingrained pattern. You can predict it. It's that moment of tension, when he says something that gets you, you feel an argument coming on... where does that go? What do you do with that? How do you re-right things when he tips the balance (or upends the table) by saying something dismissive or provocative? At best, a couple can do what others have mentioned upthread and talk like two humans trying to understand one another. At worst, one partner ends up paying the price of putting away those parts of themselves that they identify as being problematic. They make themselves the problem. YOU are not the problem. YOU are not incompatible. His behavior and inability/unwillingness to respect you as a person is a problem.
I bet if you tried, you could identify in your memory where those first few red flags were. What did you do with that energy - did you dismiss it? Give him the benefit of the doubt? Try to see his perspective? Gently try to educate him? However you dealt with these things, it involved emotional labor on your part that he undoubtedly did/does not participate in.
It's not a failure on your part to break up over all of the things that you've cited, which form a constellation of racism and hostility towards you. Whether it's intentional or not, whether he decides to change or not, is irrelevant because it's not like you haven't communicated these issues to him. You're not stewing silently. You have communicated, very clearly, that his comments are racist, hurtful, condescending, and toxic to your relationship to the point of jeopardizing it. How you feel and where you are in the present moment, right now, is a perfect indicator of his ability to act and educate himself in order to correct these things to save the relationship. The fact that you've even posted this question says that he's done a crappy job. And it's not for lack of intelligence. It's for lack of regard, and the simple fact that he can't seem to pull his arrogant, pseudo-intellectual racist head out of his ass.
You sound so nice, and so reasonable, and one of the things that bothers me the most about your post is how much he takes advantage of your kindness. The racism is more than enough to justify calling it quits, but he takes advantage of you as a person, your kindness, your patience, your ability to give the benefit of the doubt and actually see the best in him. Not only is he contrarian, dismissive, blatantly racist and ignorant, but I'd bet money that the particulars of your question and the incidents you've cited are just the tip of the iceberg.
I don't often say this, but I'd DTMFA. In a heartbeat.
posted by onecircleaday at 9:03 AM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
Racism is certainly at play here, but I'd go so far as to say that this person does not respect you, period, and IMHO he'd do this with anyone, regardless of race. He'd find something to tear them down. His pseudo-intellectualism, his arrogance, his racist beliefs and complete lack of awareness of his own white privilege all hijack whatever little empathy he may have (at least, when it comes to you).
I put away parts of myself until there wasn't much left. It's not like that now, and it shouldn't be.
I think this is so astute, in addition to all the insightful comments you've received upthread. This one in particular struck me, because it reminded me of the silent, unconscious phenomenon that happens between people that easily becomes toxic without real communication and empathy. It goes like this: someone says something to you, and it's upsetting, maybe you argue a bit about it, but it's resolved and you move on. If, however, you have the kind of relationship that you describe above, with this constant baiting and power plays, you get habituated. You just get tired of trying to explain X to this person, tired of fighting. Maybe you start to think you're the problem. That energy goes somewhere, and it zaps your vitality. Now it's toxic. It's an ingrained pattern. You can predict it. It's that moment of tension, when he says something that gets you, you feel an argument coming on... where does that go? What do you do with that? How do you re-right things when he tips the balance (or upends the table) by saying something dismissive or provocative? At best, a couple can do what others have mentioned upthread and talk like two humans trying to understand one another. At worst, one partner ends up paying the price of putting away those parts of themselves that they identify as being problematic. They make themselves the problem. YOU are not the problem. YOU are not incompatible. His behavior and inability/unwillingness to respect you as a person is a problem.
I bet if you tried, you could identify in your memory where those first few red flags were. What did you do with that energy - did you dismiss it? Give him the benefit of the doubt? Try to see his perspective? Gently try to educate him? However you dealt with these things, it involved emotional labor on your part that he undoubtedly did/does not participate in.
It's not a failure on your part to break up over all of the things that you've cited, which form a constellation of racism and hostility towards you. Whether it's intentional or not, whether he decides to change or not, is irrelevant because it's not like you haven't communicated these issues to him. You're not stewing silently. You have communicated, very clearly, that his comments are racist, hurtful, condescending, and toxic to your relationship to the point of jeopardizing it. How you feel and where you are in the present moment, right now, is a perfect indicator of his ability to act and educate himself in order to correct these things to save the relationship. The fact that you've even posted this question says that he's done a crappy job. And it's not for lack of intelligence. It's for lack of regard, and the simple fact that he can't seem to pull his arrogant, pseudo-intellectual racist head out of his ass.
You sound so nice, and so reasonable, and one of the things that bothers me the most about your post is how much he takes advantage of your kindness. The racism is more than enough to justify calling it quits, but he takes advantage of you as a person, your kindness, your patience, your ability to give the benefit of the doubt and actually see the best in him. Not only is he contrarian, dismissive, blatantly racist and ignorant, but I'd bet money that the particulars of your question and the incidents you've cited are just the tip of the iceberg.
I don't often say this, but I'd DTMFA. In a heartbeat.
posted by onecircleaday at 9:03 AM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
One thing that's conspicuously absent in your post and follow-ups is any indication of what work he's done to better understand your perspective and to develop as a more respectful partner to you. Okay so he's apologized for some of his comments but it sounds like they're still happening, and I don't hear anything suggesting he's making an effort to learn more about the issues that are important to you, from perspectives like your own. Crying about it seems like an admission that he just wants you to take him as he is because he doesn't plan on working on any changes but doesn't want you to leave him because of it.
And yes, he says he's "wiling to be convinced" but that's abdicating all responsibility - worse, it's putting that responsibility on YOU. Not only does it say that he expects you to teach him how to approach you with respect on these matters (and others, presumably) but also that if he doesn't, it's because you have failed to convince him in whatever way he deems acceptable.
(and this isn't even TOUCHING the foul racist comments or the need to 'break down' other people's positions, the latter of which seems tediously immature to me, even as someone who enjoys play-arguments with other people who enjoy it. What the hell makes him think his judgment is so keen and incisive as to make him a valid arbiter of other people's positions? That's some tiresome teenage crap right there - you can absolutely do better)
posted by DingoMutt at 9:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
And yes, he says he's "wiling to be convinced" but that's abdicating all responsibility - worse, it's putting that responsibility on YOU. Not only does it say that he expects you to teach him how to approach you with respect on these matters (and others, presumably) but also that if he doesn't, it's because you have failed to convince him in whatever way he deems acceptable.
(and this isn't even TOUCHING the foul racist comments or the need to 'break down' other people's positions, the latter of which seems tediously immature to me, even as someone who enjoys play-arguments with other people who enjoy it. What the hell makes him think his judgment is so keen and incisive as to make him a valid arbiter of other people's positions? That's some tiresome teenage crap right there - you can absolutely do better)
posted by DingoMutt at 9:19 AM on October 23, 2016 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: Thank you all again.
No, he hasn't taken any steps to better understand my perspective. I suggested that we should go to counselling, or seek out a black history professor to talk to, or something. He hasn't said anything about this, so I think he's still waiting for me to make a move on this.
The more I read these comments (and when I read my own question again), the more I think I've been experiencing some cognitive dissonance when i evaluate my relationship with him.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed that I've allowed him to behave this way for so long. It gets complicated when you're dealing with a whole person - of course, I've only written about the problematic parts of our relationship here (but not all of them).
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 9:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
No, he hasn't taken any steps to better understand my perspective. I suggested that we should go to counselling, or seek out a black history professor to talk to, or something. He hasn't said anything about this, so I think he's still waiting for me to make a move on this.
The more I read these comments (and when I read my own question again), the more I think I've been experiencing some cognitive dissonance when i evaluate my relationship with him.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed that I've allowed him to behave this way for so long. It gets complicated when you're dealing with a whole person - of course, I've only written about the problematic parts of our relationship here (but not all of them).
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 9:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [20 favorites]
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed
Don't and don't! Most of us have "been there", believe me. You're a very insightful person and he doesn't deserve you, in my eyes. And you should absolutely never have to put parts of you away. That broke my heart.
posted by the webmistress at 9:51 AM on October 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
Don't and don't! Most of us have "been there", believe me. You're a very insightful person and he doesn't deserve you, in my eyes. And you should absolutely never have to put parts of you away. That broke my heart.
posted by the webmistress at 9:51 AM on October 23, 2016 [17 favorites]
I like the idea of taking it to counseling. I would feel comfortable making it a deal breaker once it got to counseling too -- if he doesn't have it in himself to empathize and take you seriously on this topic, and can't change when he sees it's affecting you seriously, that bodes poorly for a million things down the road. Not just racism related issues with you and any kids you guys might have, but any issue where he needs to empathize when it's not immediately comfortable for him to do so (and in marriage you need to do this a lot).
posted by hungrytiger at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hungrytiger at 10:00 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
SO many of us have been there. There are three things that have helped me work through a similar dynamic in the past year:
1. The Emotional Labour discussion on Metafilter: There are so many stories here that you will recognize. You are not alone in this.
2. The Crone Island Slack community that was started after that thread.
3. Beyonce's Lemonade album and film: She has such respect for herself as she works through her anger, her feelings of betrayal and pain, and her love for her partner (and she recognizes that this is inseparable from her rage). She let me feel angry and sad without feeling weak. She helped me to discover the self-esteem and self-respect underlying that anger.
posted by sadmadglad at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
1. The Emotional Labour discussion on Metafilter: There are so many stories here that you will recognize. You are not alone in this.
2. The Crone Island Slack community that was started after that thread.
3. Beyonce's Lemonade album and film: She has such respect for herself as she works through her anger, her feelings of betrayal and pain, and her love for her partner (and she recognizes that this is inseparable from her rage). She let me feel angry and sad without feeling weak. She helped me to discover the self-esteem and self-respect underlying that anger.
posted by sadmadglad at 10:34 AM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
He really can be an ass though. And the one thing I can't stomach him being an ass about is my blackness and everything that comes with it.
No, he hasn't taken any steps to better understand my perspective.
These are deal killers. You can do (much) better.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed that I've allowed him to behave this way for so long.
Your question and your answers indicate that you're realizing this now, before you get married. Maybe sounds odd, but I'm actually happy to read the realization you're having here. It's terrible to hear someone losing time in unworkable relationships, especially when one side is very clearly mistreating the other.
posted by cnc at 11:07 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
No, he hasn't taken any steps to better understand my perspective.
These are deal killers. You can do (much) better.
I know I shouldn't beat myself up, but I'm starting to feel a bit embarrassed that I've allowed him to behave this way for so long.
Your question and your answers indicate that you're realizing this now, before you get married. Maybe sounds odd, but I'm actually happy to read the realization you're having here. It's terrible to hear someone losing time in unworkable relationships, especially when one side is very clearly mistreating the other.
posted by cnc at 11:07 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
Definitely don't beat yourself up. A lot of us have been there and learned the hard way what not to tolerate, and we just want you not to have to go through the same thing. I wish I'd had mefi to ask relationship questions of 20+ years ago, it might have meant a less painful learning curve.
posted by bile and syntax at 11:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by bile and syntax at 11:29 AM on October 23, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm a black man and I tend to share your fiance's views. Not even sure why they hurt you so much. But then, I'm in Africa in a black country and probably much less sensitive about race issues than black people in western countries.
More to the point, if you really love your man you should be able to discuss these issues with him.
Really, talk to him. Share. I don't see any irreconciliable difference in the situation you're describing.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:43 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
More to the point, if you really love your man you should be able to discuss these issues with him.
Really, talk to him. Share. I don't see any irreconciliable difference in the situation you're describing.
posted by Kwadeng at 11:43 AM on October 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm a bit worried by how most of the discussion seems to be the classic DTMFA. I can empathise with both sides - I'm *that* guy who loves to intellectualise things, and I've also experienced frustration at how my partner didn't seem to take my concerns seriously, to the point that I suggested counselling to no avail. There was a period when I was really worried, but this helped us:
1. Have you made it clear what exactly upsets you? Both the underlying issue, as well as the specific triggers - i.e. when you do X, I respond Y because Z. This is something that comes up in counselling. It *may* be that he can't recognise the pattern enough to stop himself before he gets started, or that he doesn't know why.
2. Does he show interest in not-doing things that make you upset? The crux of the matter is that he needs to realise that his actions are affecting you negatively, and that every time he does it, it damages your relationship. If he realises that, and still persists repeatedly without trying to do something concrete about it - that's when it's a lost cause.
I guess my perspective is a little different because I'd like to think that it could just be a case of ingrained thoughts and habits (he completely doesn't know what it's like to be you after all) that takes time to adjust. That said, he needs to be given a clear message - if he's serious about making this work, then he's got to do something about it.
So like the poster above said - talk to him. Say "We Need To Talk" and sit him down and tell him the issues that both of you are facing, and ask what he's going to do to make things different. And look at yourself too - is there anything you're doing that's contributing to this?
posted by appleses at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
1. Have you made it clear what exactly upsets you? Both the underlying issue, as well as the specific triggers - i.e. when you do X, I respond Y because Z. This is something that comes up in counselling. It *may* be that he can't recognise the pattern enough to stop himself before he gets started, or that he doesn't know why.
2. Does he show interest in not-doing things that make you upset? The crux of the matter is that he needs to realise that his actions are affecting you negatively, and that every time he does it, it damages your relationship. If he realises that, and still persists repeatedly without trying to do something concrete about it - that's when it's a lost cause.
I guess my perspective is a little different because I'd like to think that it could just be a case of ingrained thoughts and habits (he completely doesn't know what it's like to be you after all) that takes time to adjust. That said, he needs to be given a clear message - if he's serious about making this work, then he's got to do something about it.
So like the poster above said - talk to him. Say "We Need To Talk" and sit him down and tell him the issues that both of you are facing, and ask what he's going to do to make things different. And look at yourself too - is there anything you're doing that's contributing to this?
posted by appleses at 11:50 AM on October 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
There's this thing that a lot of white people do, where when they say or do something racist and you tell them that they were racist, they'll try to make it into an argument on whether what they did was really "objectively" racist or not. Don't fall for this trap. It's an argument you'll always lose, because no matter what they said, there's always going to be some way they'll be able to conjure up the benefit of the doubt. But more to the point, it weasels out of acknowledging that what they said hurt you. You are a person of color, and what they said had an impact upon you due to racial dynamics of power between white people and people of color. As much as they try to argue, they can't erase that you still stand as a living, breathing counterpoint to the argument they're making. It's racist because your experiences matter. Don't let white people who pull this shit gaslight you out of that realization.
This is also the reason why I wouldn't consider your relationship with your boyfriend to be salvageable. I've known lot of white people, and I agree that as a PoC, racial harm in any relationship with a white person is going to happen. But I've also noticed a pattern in the way white people respond to you expressing that they've been racist, that tells you whether or not this harm is worth it. For some white people, if they do something racist and you tell them you were hurt by the racism, their first response will be to apologize and to not do it again. Even if you explain it to them, they might not understand or agree with what you say, and that's fine - they're white people, they don't have our experiences, and they won't understand every single thing we go through. But even if they disagree, the crux is that they'll still recognize that what they did was hurtful, and they won't do it again. They treat you like a human being.
For other white people, they'll respond with the defensiveness that I outlined above. That's when I know that the relationship isn't worth salvaging, and that's the category your boyfriend falls into. If they were the first type of white person, I would be hurt, but at least that hurt would be productive - they won't do it to me again and they'll better understand how to interact with other PoC. But with the second type of white person, you will never get anywhere. The issue is that they lack the empathy to put themselves in your shoes, and the emotional resilience to confront the consequences and impact of their actions upon you. You can explain to them as much as you want about historical context, about institutional racism, about power dynamics, about whatever - but the problem is that so long as they view racism as an abstract political issue instead of something that personally impacts you, that can't be changed. This is particularly evident in your boyfriend's responses to your racial hurt - he calls it political and he accuses you of having an "identity crisis" instead of realizing that your response is what it is.
You can teach the logic behind racism all you want, but you can't teach white people emotional resilience and empathy around racism. You can't influence your boyfriend, and it's not fair for you to continue to endure microaggression after microaggression and macroaggression after macroaggression as he continues to be this stunted.
posted by Conspire at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2016 [41 favorites]
This is also the reason why I wouldn't consider your relationship with your boyfriend to be salvageable. I've known lot of white people, and I agree that as a PoC, racial harm in any relationship with a white person is going to happen. But I've also noticed a pattern in the way white people respond to you expressing that they've been racist, that tells you whether or not this harm is worth it. For some white people, if they do something racist and you tell them you were hurt by the racism, their first response will be to apologize and to not do it again. Even if you explain it to them, they might not understand or agree with what you say, and that's fine - they're white people, they don't have our experiences, and they won't understand every single thing we go through. But even if they disagree, the crux is that they'll still recognize that what they did was hurtful, and they won't do it again. They treat you like a human being.
For other white people, they'll respond with the defensiveness that I outlined above. That's when I know that the relationship isn't worth salvaging, and that's the category your boyfriend falls into. If they were the first type of white person, I would be hurt, but at least that hurt would be productive - they won't do it to me again and they'll better understand how to interact with other PoC. But with the second type of white person, you will never get anywhere. The issue is that they lack the empathy to put themselves in your shoes, and the emotional resilience to confront the consequences and impact of their actions upon you. You can explain to them as much as you want about historical context, about institutional racism, about power dynamics, about whatever - but the problem is that so long as they view racism as an abstract political issue instead of something that personally impacts you, that can't be changed. This is particularly evident in your boyfriend's responses to your racial hurt - he calls it political and he accuses you of having an "identity crisis" instead of realizing that your response is what it is.
You can teach the logic behind racism all you want, but you can't teach white people emotional resilience and empathy around racism. You can't influence your boyfriend, and it's not fair for you to continue to endure microaggression after microaggression and macroaggression after macroaggression as he continues to be this stunted.
posted by Conspire at 11:51 AM on October 23, 2016 [41 favorites]
More to the point, if you really love your man you should be able to discuss these issues with him.
She has been - and let's acknowledge that if he loves her, he should be able to listen without deflecting, dismissing, or being defensive. Talking to someone who doesn't want to really listen to you is deeply discouraging to say the least, especially when they are supposed to love you, not express contempt or treat you as a way to exercise their contrarianism.
posted by rtha at 12:09 PM on October 23, 2016 [37 favorites]
She has been - and let's acknowledge that if he loves her, he should be able to listen without deflecting, dismissing, or being defensive. Talking to someone who doesn't want to really listen to you is deeply discouraging to say the least, especially when they are supposed to love you, not express contempt or treat you as a way to exercise their contrarianism.
posted by rtha at 12:09 PM on October 23, 2016 [37 favorites]
OP has discussed at length with her fiance the hurtful things he has said to her. Making his behavior an issue of whether she "really" loves him is putting the responsibility on entirely the wrong person.
posted by praemunire at 12:48 PM on October 23, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 12:48 PM on October 23, 2016 [25 favorites]
Regarding your last follow up: please be gentle with yourself.
The concept of denial has kind of turned into a cultural joke, but it's a real thing that people do. It's a protective mechanism that is built in to keep you from being devastated by things that are, actually, devastating.
Part of the maturation process I talked about above involves coming out of that denial--coping with what you learn when you lose your blind spot, coping with the fact that you had that blind spot in the first place. Have compassion for yourself. You're just human.
The good news is, painful though this may be in many respects, what is driving it is that you have the innate knowledge that some things are not right, some things are not how they should be, and your are not standing for it. You are protecting yourself and standing up for yourself. That is a really powerful thing and your can be proud of it,
There are undoubtedly many good things about your guy too--you weren't foolish to fall for him, and it's so very human to be so taken with the good stuff, to want it so badly that's you just let the tough stuff slide. Truly, this is so very typical of the arc of relationships.
Again, you've been together for five years. That's about as much time as it takes to get out of the rosy early parts of the relationship and to really confront the imperfect humanness of both people in the situation. I think you're right to make it an issue. It may not need to be fatal for your relationship, if he can grow too, as you are growing now. But you would be well served to not accept anything less, to make your commitment contingent on seeing serious change instigated by him solely of his own volition. If he doesn't do that, it is not your failure, it's his. Only you can know how much of a chance to give him, how long to wait and see, how to shore up your boundaries in the meantime.
Take care.
posted by Sublimity at 1:27 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
The concept of denial has kind of turned into a cultural joke, but it's a real thing that people do. It's a protective mechanism that is built in to keep you from being devastated by things that are, actually, devastating.
Part of the maturation process I talked about above involves coming out of that denial--coping with what you learn when you lose your blind spot, coping with the fact that you had that blind spot in the first place. Have compassion for yourself. You're just human.
The good news is, painful though this may be in many respects, what is driving it is that you have the innate knowledge that some things are not right, some things are not how they should be, and your are not standing for it. You are protecting yourself and standing up for yourself. That is a really powerful thing and your can be proud of it,
There are undoubtedly many good things about your guy too--you weren't foolish to fall for him, and it's so very human to be so taken with the good stuff, to want it so badly that's you just let the tough stuff slide. Truly, this is so very typical of the arc of relationships.
Again, you've been together for five years. That's about as much time as it takes to get out of the rosy early parts of the relationship and to really confront the imperfect humanness of both people in the situation. I think you're right to make it an issue. It may not need to be fatal for your relationship, if he can grow too, as you are growing now. But you would be well served to not accept anything less, to make your commitment contingent on seeing serious change instigated by him solely of his own volition. If he doesn't do that, it is not your failure, it's his. Only you can know how much of a chance to give him, how long to wait and see, how to shore up your boundaries in the meantime.
Take care.
posted by Sublimity at 1:27 PM on October 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm a black man and I tend to share your fiance's views. Not even sure why they hurt you so much.
White American (US-ian) woman here but here I go anyway... for me the problem with the particular things that he's been saying is that they are all used regularly to dismiss any discussion of racism problems in United States, so these talking points have ended up with far more weight than they would have without that context. For instance, online you most often see them over and over on white supremacist sites.
posted by small_ruminant at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
White American (US-ian) woman here but here I go anyway... for me the problem with the particular things that he's been saying is that they are all used regularly to dismiss any discussion of racism problems in United States, so these talking points have ended up with far more weight than they would have without that context. For instance, online you most often see them over and over on white supremacist sites.
posted by small_ruminant at 2:14 PM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
Best answer: Hello! I am a historian. (I am not YOUR historian, this is not historiography, I am a U.S. historian so have studied this, but it is not my research domain.)
I would like to say something about this: "he told me that it's strange for me to identify with descendants of slaves, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans. He said by talking as if I have suffered from the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I am "appropriating someone else's tragedy".
This is racist garbage, and I see a couple commenters have referred back to it, so like, let's do this.
Look, here's the thing. Enslavement of other people within societies is very old. It happened in the Greco-Roman world, it has happened in Muslim and Christian societies. And, yes, there were regimes of enslavement in several African kingdoms. Slavery is bad! We are agreed!
Here, however, is why African participation in the transatlantic slave trade is different from the enslavement of Africans by white Europeans:
The regimes of chattel enslavement conducted by white Europeans and, subsequently, Americans, represented the first time in which racial difference, specifically Blackness, was the marker of slave status, and, in British North America and the U.S., a subsequent legal structure enshrined race-based slavery as a heritable, matrilineal, life-long legal status. THAT is the thing that is essential here. The children of enslaved women were ipso facto enslaved. Barring exceptional circumstances, an enslaved person's entire line of descendants were also forever enslaved, solely based on race.
Slavery and servitude were neither new nor novel on the African continent—there were slave systems before the Arab and Atlantic slave trades formed. However, the contexts of what "enslavement" meant were different from what was to emerge in the Atlantic world—BY AND LARGE, it was more like indentured servitude (so don't @ me with the exceptions), and enslaved people could become integrated into (rather than a possession held by) families and kinship groups. Debt bondage and military enslavement were also practiced, but, again, are unlike race-based chattel slavery, and the roots of race-based chattel slavery that involved Africans enslaving other Africans for sale to whites are only present from the time Africans have contact with European and Arab traders.
It was not the same institution. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison. It is CERTAINLY NOT an appropriate thing to throw at a woman in the Black Diaspora, period, and certainly the transatlantic slave trade did a great deal of damage to Nigerian societies as well: many Igbo were enslaved in the 16th century. And this is all very, very well-trod territory for historians. There is nothing unusual or outré about the interpretation I just offered.
It is wildly offensive, and your gut is right.
posted by listen, lady at 4:50 PM on October 23, 2016 [68 favorites]
I would like to say something about this: "he told me that it's strange for me to identify with descendants of slaves, since my ancestors in Nigeria also sold slaves to Europeans. He said by talking as if I have suffered from the Trans-Atlantic slave trade, I am "appropriating someone else's tragedy".
This is racist garbage, and I see a couple commenters have referred back to it, so like, let's do this.
Look, here's the thing. Enslavement of other people within societies is very old. It happened in the Greco-Roman world, it has happened in Muslim and Christian societies. And, yes, there were regimes of enslavement in several African kingdoms. Slavery is bad! We are agreed!
Here, however, is why African participation in the transatlantic slave trade is different from the enslavement of Africans by white Europeans:
The regimes of chattel enslavement conducted by white Europeans and, subsequently, Americans, represented the first time in which racial difference, specifically Blackness, was the marker of slave status, and, in British North America and the U.S., a subsequent legal structure enshrined race-based slavery as a heritable, matrilineal, life-long legal status. THAT is the thing that is essential here. The children of enslaved women were ipso facto enslaved. Barring exceptional circumstances, an enslaved person's entire line of descendants were also forever enslaved, solely based on race.
Slavery and servitude were neither new nor novel on the African continent—there were slave systems before the Arab and Atlantic slave trades formed. However, the contexts of what "enslavement" meant were different from what was to emerge in the Atlantic world—BY AND LARGE, it was more like indentured servitude (so don't @ me with the exceptions), and enslaved people could become integrated into (rather than a possession held by) families and kinship groups. Debt bondage and military enslavement were also practiced, but, again, are unlike race-based chattel slavery, and the roots of race-based chattel slavery that involved Africans enslaving other Africans for sale to whites are only present from the time Africans have contact with European and Arab traders.
It was not the same institution. It's not an apples-to-apples comparison. It is CERTAINLY NOT an appropriate thing to throw at a woman in the Black Diaspora, period, and certainly the transatlantic slave trade did a great deal of damage to Nigerian societies as well: many Igbo were enslaved in the 16th century. And this is all very, very well-trod territory for historians. There is nothing unusual or outré about the interpretation I just offered.
It is wildly offensive, and your gut is right.
posted by listen, lady at 4:50 PM on October 23, 2016 [68 favorites]
And no, while we're at it: the "Irish slavery in the Americas" myth is not comparable to the regime I have described & is also a racist canard.
posted by listen, lady at 5:05 PM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by listen, lady at 5:05 PM on October 23, 2016 [11 favorites]
The essential problem is that he is emotionally immature. He doesn't respect your feelings, and he indulges in mean teasing and verbal bullying because he hasn't yet learned that this shouldn't be part of a functional adult relationship. You can help him learn to be a better person by breaking up with him, and letting him eventually figure it out himself.
posted by ovvl at 5:31 PM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ovvl at 5:31 PM on October 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
The only thing he said was that he finds it interesting that black people don't speak up much about black -on- black crime, but complain when a racist white guy kills one black person.
This would be enough to make me seriously reconsider a friendship, let alone a relationship. I'd probably try to explain why this is incredibly offensive and the fact that it's one of the typical racist dogwhistles (along with, "Affirmative action is racist against white people" and "The confederate flag isn't racist; it's just about remembering our history"*)
*I'm in the US, not Canada, fwiw.
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Ugh, no. Just no. You should not have to convince anyone, especially your fiance about your lived experience and why you're offended by his racism. I just can't even.
Oh, and I should mention, I'm white, so I can't even imagine how much more hurtful this is for someone as a POC. I did grow up in the US South, and after growing up around this kind of racism, I have zero tolerance for anyone who pulls this kind of rhetorical crap. By all means, have intellectual debates, but no one should be debating someone's personal identity. The lived experience of POC, LGBTQ identifying people, women...no one should debate their lived experience with them. (As I said, I'm not a POC, but I am a (cis) woman, and I have no patience for men who want to debate whether I do in fact get cat called or whatever. None at all.)
I'm truly sorry you're dealing with this, and if your fiance is willing to do the work on his own, maybe this is salvageable, but you shouldn't have to be the one arranging for his education. It should be enough for him to know that this is hurting you and jeopardizing your relationship. Don't do his emotional labor for him.
And on a more general note, I've learned to be wary of a particular type of person. Often white, almost always male, someone who fancies themselves an intellectual, thinks everything is up for debate, wants to be "convinced" of everything, unless it's something that directly affects them. The thing that so often underlies this is a lack of empathy and a blindness to their personal privilege. More importantly, there is often an unwillingness to see that privilege.
But really, I think that lack of empathy is key. I'm not saying they're a sociopath without any empathy, but even someone who is not aware of these racial issues, the fact that this hurts you would be enough for them to step back and want to change what they're doing.
Your fiance seems unwilling to empathize with you. It's all about him. You need to convince him. Breaking up would hurt him. You deserve someone who doesn't need to be convinced not to treat your lived experience as a topic of abstract debate. You deserve better.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:04 PM on October 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
This would be enough to make me seriously reconsider a friendship, let alone a relationship. I'd probably try to explain why this is incredibly offensive and the fact that it's one of the typical racist dogwhistles (along with, "Affirmative action is racist against white people" and "The confederate flag isn't racist; it's just about remembering our history"*)
*I'm in the US, not Canada, fwiw.
He says he's open to listening. Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Ugh, no. Just no. You should not have to convince anyone, especially your fiance about your lived experience and why you're offended by his racism. I just can't even.
Oh, and I should mention, I'm white, so I can't even imagine how much more hurtful this is for someone as a POC. I did grow up in the US South, and after growing up around this kind of racism, I have zero tolerance for anyone who pulls this kind of rhetorical crap. By all means, have intellectual debates, but no one should be debating someone's personal identity. The lived experience of POC, LGBTQ identifying people, women...no one should debate their lived experience with them. (As I said, I'm not a POC, but I am a (cis) woman, and I have no patience for men who want to debate whether I do in fact get cat called or whatever. None at all.)
I'm truly sorry you're dealing with this, and if your fiance is willing to do the work on his own, maybe this is salvageable, but you shouldn't have to be the one arranging for his education. It should be enough for him to know that this is hurting you and jeopardizing your relationship. Don't do his emotional labor for him.
And on a more general note, I've learned to be wary of a particular type of person. Often white, almost always male, someone who fancies themselves an intellectual, thinks everything is up for debate, wants to be "convinced" of everything, unless it's something that directly affects them. The thing that so often underlies this is a lack of empathy and a blindness to their personal privilege. More importantly, there is often an unwillingness to see that privilege.
But really, I think that lack of empathy is key. I'm not saying they're a sociopath without any empathy, but even someone who is not aware of these racial issues, the fact that this hurts you would be enough for them to step back and want to change what they're doing.
Your fiance seems unwilling to empathize with you. It's all about him. You need to convince him. Breaking up would hurt him. You deserve someone who doesn't need to be convinced not to treat your lived experience as a topic of abstract debate. You deserve better.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:04 PM on October 23, 2016 [9 favorites]
So I'm a queer WOC who was in a relationship with a straight white guy. Our early days of dating, he would make occasional casual homophobic/racist statements - nothing really overt or hostile, but like "I don't know if I'd be ok with my brother being gay because what if he comes onto me" or comparing our skin color endlessly or whatever. This was my first relationship and we were both relatively young.
I would call him out on that shit, and he would listen. He didn't try to argue with me or defend himself or whatever. He recognized that when it comes to things like these, I probably have more of an authority than he does, and it'd behoove him to take the lead on this.
We're not together anymore but we're still best friends, and what I've seen is that he's gone above and beyond to educate himself. We have very productive conversations about these issues, he shares what he's learned openly, he's much more willing to push his comfort zone when it comes to spaces where he's the minority. He's become so good at this that I sometimes want to farm him out to people looking for boyfriends. "Look! The one decent straight white guy!" He still has quite some distance to go, but he's willing to go there, which makes a huge difference.
I'm on team DTMFA, but ultimately it's up to you. I hope things work out in your favor. <3
posted by divabat at 7:30 PM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would call him out on that shit, and he would listen. He didn't try to argue with me or defend himself or whatever. He recognized that when it comes to things like these, I probably have more of an authority than he does, and it'd behoove him to take the lead on this.
We're not together anymore but we're still best friends, and what I've seen is that he's gone above and beyond to educate himself. We have very productive conversations about these issues, he shares what he's learned openly, he's much more willing to push his comfort zone when it comes to spaces where he's the minority. He's become so good at this that I sometimes want to farm him out to people looking for boyfriends. "Look! The one decent straight white guy!" He still has quite some distance to go, but he's willing to go there, which makes a huge difference.
I'm on team DTMFA, but ultimately it's up to you. I hope things work out in your favor. <3
posted by divabat at 7:30 PM on October 23, 2016 [5 favorites]
I still think this relationship can work.
Because you haven't expanded on why you love him, most answers are coloured by the fact that your man has made an offensive comment or two. Besides, here on Metafilter, people would tell you to end a relationship for any reason, as long as you complain about it.
The only issue I see in this relationship is that the guy is very argumentative, and this triggers you endlessly.
That you have to write about it here means it is no longer working for you. And although I don't share your views, I think that the mere fact that you are in pain or angry should make your partner pause and think. Print this thread for him to read. We all harbour plenty of prejudices and being exposed to them in a calm, not confrontational manner, is usually conducive to reflection and positive changes down the line. You cannot expect someone to be in your shoes, but you can, and should, expect them to learn empathy.
Undoing years of automatic thoughts takes time but this is precisely what working on a relationship is. Please don't paint your man as the villain and also look hard at why these race issues have becoming so important to you after so many years together.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:54 PM on October 23, 2016
Because you haven't expanded on why you love him, most answers are coloured by the fact that your man has made an offensive comment or two. Besides, here on Metafilter, people would tell you to end a relationship for any reason, as long as you complain about it.
The only issue I see in this relationship is that the guy is very argumentative, and this triggers you endlessly.
That you have to write about it here means it is no longer working for you. And although I don't share your views, I think that the mere fact that you are in pain or angry should make your partner pause and think. Print this thread for him to read. We all harbour plenty of prejudices and being exposed to them in a calm, not confrontational manner, is usually conducive to reflection and positive changes down the line. You cannot expect someone to be in your shoes, but you can, and should, expect them to learn empathy.
Undoing years of automatic thoughts takes time but this is precisely what working on a relationship is. Please don't paint your man as the villain and also look hard at why these race issues have becoming so important to you after so many years together.
posted by Kwadeng at 10:54 PM on October 23, 2016
Dude lost me at Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Convinced of what? That your feelings and experiences as a WOC are legitimate? Because that's all that's on the table. You're not asking for a history lesson or partaking in some academic debate for points. His expectation that you need to convince him to accept your feelings at face value in a supportive manner is gross.
Do not feel embarrassed, as others have mentioned, in most cases people are not going to come to a relationship 100% perfect in this regard. You've just come to the point where many of us have been: totally exhausted by the emotional labour you've put in thus far and now questioning how much you have left to give. You are at a natural point for reflection and the outcome depends a lot on his ability to step up his own effort - not "how can I try harder".
posted by like_neon at 1:19 AM on October 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Convinced of what? That your feelings and experiences as a WOC are legitimate? Because that's all that's on the table. You're not asking for a history lesson or partaking in some academic debate for points. His expectation that you need to convince him to accept your feelings at face value in a supportive manner is gross.
Do not feel embarrassed, as others have mentioned, in most cases people are not going to come to a relationship 100% perfect in this regard. You've just come to the point where many of us have been: totally exhausted by the emotional labour you've put in thus far and now questioning how much you have left to give. You are at a natural point for reflection and the outcome depends a lot on his ability to step up his own effort - not "how can I try harder".
posted by like_neon at 1:19 AM on October 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Please, please don't feel embarrassed.
Presumably, he has enough good qualities that you agreed to marry him. Realising that bad qualities trump good ones is always a long, oftentimes incredibly hard process especially when it comes to people we love. On top of that, as women, and women of colour, we are socialised to put everyone else's needs first - especially the needs of the men in our lives. Add to that a dollop of the conditioning everyone gets when it comes to excusing racism and white privilege, and it's a hell of a thing to overcome.
I encourage you to read the emotional labour thread linked upthread; it was an eye-opener for me, and I'm generally pretty woke about these things!
posted by Tamanna at 3:15 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Presumably, he has enough good qualities that you agreed to marry him. Realising that bad qualities trump good ones is always a long, oftentimes incredibly hard process especially when it comes to people we love. On top of that, as women, and women of colour, we are socialised to put everyone else's needs first - especially the needs of the men in our lives. Add to that a dollop of the conditioning everyone gets when it comes to excusing racism and white privilege, and it's a hell of a thing to overcome.
I encourage you to read the emotional labour thread linked upthread; it was an eye-opener for me, and I'm generally pretty woke about these things!
posted by Tamanna at 3:15 AM on October 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: To the black guy that shares my fiance's views and doesn't understand why they hurt me so much:
I don't understand how you can share his views and why they don't hurt you. Also its not just his views that are hurtful, but the glib way in which he expresses them.
Like others have said, I have tried explaining to him why its hurtful. He doesn't communicate about it in a productive or respectful way.
The issue of race hasn't "suddenly" become more important to me. IT was years into our relationship that he started saying things about race that really concerned me, and only recently that me made the most shocking comments (about slavery).
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
I don't understand how you can share his views and why they don't hurt you. Also its not just his views that are hurtful, but the glib way in which he expresses them.
Like others have said, I have tried explaining to him why its hurtful. He doesn't communicate about it in a productive or respectful way.
The issue of race hasn't "suddenly" become more important to me. IT was years into our relationship that he started saying things about race that really concerned me, and only recently that me made the most shocking comments (about slavery).
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 8:10 AM on October 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
Just wanted to back up some things that have been said a lot in the thread, because I really feel for you, OP:
* Don't feel bad or embarrassed.
Almost everyone has been in a relationship that appeared fine at first, and turned out to have deeper problems. I've been there too. It's okay. It doesn't make you bad. Sometimes, it takes a long time for the problems in relationships to become obvious.
* Racism can be worked with, but lack of respect can't be.
I'm a male POC in a long term relationship with a white woman. Over the years, I have learned that I didn't understand sexism as well as I thought I did, and I have made an effort to learn more. She learned she didn't understand racism as well as she thought she did, and she made an effort too. We've helped each other to be more woke, because we both *want* to treat the people around us with respect. Being in a mixed couple has been good for both of us, but only because we listen to each other.
So the thing that really got me about your story wasn't that he's a big racist, (though he totally is). It was this:
When I mention the possibility of us breaking up, he becomes even more depressed. A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
And this:
Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Those are not the responses of a good partner. As many others have said, he's trying to put the work of this on you, and he shouldn't. He should believe you when you tell him this is a problem, and he should be educating *himself* about it to understand why. No partner should *ever* need 'convincing' about the validity of your feelings. Telling you to do that for him is disrespectful and childish, and it indicates even deeper problems down the line. Definitely listen to the posters who said to read the Emotional Labor thread, because it's important.
Personally, I would end stuff immediately - I've been down this road before, with a woman who did not respect my feelings, and it's my experience that people like that do not ever get better at listening. You should do whatever is right for you, and I wish you all the best with whatever you choose. Just remember that you deserve better than this, and that this is not your fault or your responsibility to correct.
posted by mordax at 9:59 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
* Don't feel bad or embarrassed.
Almost everyone has been in a relationship that appeared fine at first, and turned out to have deeper problems. I've been there too. It's okay. It doesn't make you bad. Sometimes, it takes a long time for the problems in relationships to become obvious.
* Racism can be worked with, but lack of respect can't be.
I'm a male POC in a long term relationship with a white woman. Over the years, I have learned that I didn't understand sexism as well as I thought I did, and I have made an effort to learn more. She learned she didn't understand racism as well as she thought she did, and she made an effort too. We've helped each other to be more woke, because we both *want* to treat the people around us with respect. Being in a mixed couple has been good for both of us, but only because we listen to each other.
So the thing that really got me about your story wasn't that he's a big racist, (though he totally is). It was this:
When I mention the possibility of us breaking up, he becomes even more depressed. A few days ago, he was crying in the morning, and said it was because he cannot bear the thought of losing me, and he was so upset that he didn't go to work that day.
And this:
Actually he's said he "wants to be convinced".
Those are not the responses of a good partner. As many others have said, he's trying to put the work of this on you, and he shouldn't. He should believe you when you tell him this is a problem, and he should be educating *himself* about it to understand why. No partner should *ever* need 'convincing' about the validity of your feelings. Telling you to do that for him is disrespectful and childish, and it indicates even deeper problems down the line. Definitely listen to the posters who said to read the Emotional Labor thread, because it's important.
Personally, I would end stuff immediately - I've been down this road before, with a woman who did not respect my feelings, and it's my experience that people like that do not ever get better at listening. You should do whatever is right for you, and I wish you all the best with whatever you choose. Just remember that you deserve better than this, and that this is not your fault or your responsibility to correct.
posted by mordax at 9:59 AM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
You have received a lot of good advice and I don't really have much to add to the responses above. But just as one more data point, I'm a white woman, and I have basically given up on dating white men. This happened about 8 or 10 years ago, when I realized the that there would always come a day in which the white man would say "The only racism I've ever noticed is against white men." Or something very close to that. And I live in San Francisco, which is a relatively educated city.
Some friends (of various races) were asking recently whether it is indicative of pathology if you never date your own race. I asked, "wait, are you saying I have to date white men?" and got a big laugh. That you've stayed in this relationship as long as you have tells me that you are a very patient, loyal, and loving person, and as such, you deserve to be in a relationship with someone like you -- someone who listens to your experience and believes you implicitly, rather than telling you that it's wrong, or telling you what "really" happened. Someone who cherishes you enough to engage you intellectually without demeaning you or creating an atmosphere in which you don't feel emotionally supported.
Take good care. You know we are all pulling for you.
posted by janey47 at 2:03 PM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Some friends (of various races) were asking recently whether it is indicative of pathology if you never date your own race. I asked, "wait, are you saying I have to date white men?" and got a big laugh. That you've stayed in this relationship as long as you have tells me that you are a very patient, loyal, and loving person, and as such, you deserve to be in a relationship with someone like you -- someone who listens to your experience and believes you implicitly, rather than telling you that it's wrong, or telling you what "really" happened. Someone who cherishes you enough to engage you intellectually without demeaning you or creating an atmosphere in which you don't feel emotionally supported.
Take good care. You know we are all pulling for you.
posted by janey47 at 2:03 PM on October 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
For example, he has told me a few times that i have "no imagination" (because I don't like to play a computer game that he plays,
I think everyone else has addressed the racism satisfactorily, but this was the dealbreaker line for me even without the gross racist comments, because it shows a basic contempt for you-- and taking pleasure in being contemptuous of you-- that means he's going to be resistant to changing a racist or sexist or otherwise toxic and misinformed outloook. Being "addicted" to tearing people down in verbal arguments, or constantly starting fights with people under the guise of "debating" is part of the same suite of shitty personality traits. A lot of nerdy men get stuck in this particular contrarian phase-- it's basically a stage of arrested emotional development, where they're still acting like a precocious child who gets praised for being smart when they question authority and want to turn everything into a philosophical debate. If you don't mature out of this once you're past stoned undergrad conversations, it very quickly turns into a pattern of routinely emotionally abusing everyone around you and forcing them into fights with you under the pretension of intellectual discourse ("I want to be convinced.") Telling you you have no imagination because he's too insecure to be OK with you not liking his favorite video game. Wow. This guy has a long, hard road ahead of him of training himself out of this, like, years, if he wants to learn how to be a functional adult in a relationship. It is not your obligation to stick around for that process of this white dude learning how to be a human being, no matter how much he swears he wasn't *really* insulting you, or how much he cries at you because he knows he's too racist and toxic to be around.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:27 PM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think everyone else has addressed the racism satisfactorily, but this was the dealbreaker line for me even without the gross racist comments, because it shows a basic contempt for you-- and taking pleasure in being contemptuous of you-- that means he's going to be resistant to changing a racist or sexist or otherwise toxic and misinformed outloook. Being "addicted" to tearing people down in verbal arguments, or constantly starting fights with people under the guise of "debating" is part of the same suite of shitty personality traits. A lot of nerdy men get stuck in this particular contrarian phase-- it's basically a stage of arrested emotional development, where they're still acting like a precocious child who gets praised for being smart when they question authority and want to turn everything into a philosophical debate. If you don't mature out of this once you're past stoned undergrad conversations, it very quickly turns into a pattern of routinely emotionally abusing everyone around you and forcing them into fights with you under the pretension of intellectual discourse ("I want to be convinced.") Telling you you have no imagination because he's too insecure to be OK with you not liking his favorite video game. Wow. This guy has a long, hard road ahead of him of training himself out of this, like, years, if he wants to learn how to be a functional adult in a relationship. It is not your obligation to stick around for that process of this white dude learning how to be a human being, no matter how much he swears he wasn't *really* insulting you, or how much he cries at you because he knows he's too racist and toxic to be around.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:27 PM on October 24, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also I feel like Kathryn T's iconic poopshake comment is applicable here.
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:31 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 8:31 PM on October 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Update: I broke up with this guy. I'm mad that I stayed with for such a long time after reading the advice from all of you. But I am relieved to be away from him. Thank you all again for your generous and detailed insights.
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 2:24 AM on October 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
posted by Hummingbird1983 at 2:24 AM on October 13, 2017 [9 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
You have answered your own question solely by writing out your question. You should not be considering marrying this person.
posted by saeculorum at 10:11 PM on October 22, 2016 [31 favorites]