My husband is a crappy communicator. Resources?
October 19, 2016 2:45 PM Subscribe
I'm looking for an article to get my husband to read which will convince him that active listening and empathising is a good thing to do and which will teach him how to do it.
Our exchange just now:
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all
Me: In general yes but this thing X [a life circumstance of ours] is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently.
Him: But X isn't really a problem which effects you. And anyway we should have thought about X before making our life decisions.
Me: ...
Him: And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity.
[what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you, X is tough, *cuddles*)
THEN after getting a bit sad I told him that all I wanted to hear was some empathy and not for my problem to be explained/rationalised away. Then he got defensive and negative about me telling him how to speak.
So anyway - is there a word for what he's doing, and is there some kind of resource for me to help explain what I need in these circumstances? Bonus for resources helping to deal with his huge defensiveness.
[In case of interest, X is the sadness and guilt that we had a baby and live far from my family, so they don't get to share in the joy that she is as they would if we lived near them. We are living where we are for good reasons and do all the things to keep them involved etc.]
Our exchange just now:
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all
Me: In general yes but this thing X [a life circumstance of ours] is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently.
Him: But X isn't really a problem which effects you. And anyway we should have thought about X before making our life decisions.
Me: ...
Him: And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity.
[what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you, X is tough, *cuddles*)
THEN after getting a bit sad I told him that all I wanted to hear was some empathy and not for my problem to be explained/rationalised away. Then he got defensive and negative about me telling him how to speak.
So anyway - is there a word for what he's doing, and is there some kind of resource for me to help explain what I need in these circumstances? Bonus for resources helping to deal with his huge defensiveness.
[In case of interest, X is the sadness and guilt that we had a baby and live far from my family, so they don't get to share in the joy that she is as they would if we lived near them. We are living where we are for good reasons and do all the things to keep them involved etc.]
Response by poster: Namlit I said something along those lines, but he got defensive, thinking I was criticising him, and offered more reasons why I shouldn't be bothered by X or I shouldn't talk about it. I got frustrated and sad about that and left. Not a great dynamic eh.
posted by hannahlambda at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by hannahlambda at 2:55 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It sounds like maybe he was looking for some affirmation (that he's being a good partner?) and totally failed at asking for it clearly, then got upset when he didn't get it. I don't think an article is going to help until you get him to talk about what's eating him. Has he been able to empathize and not offer solutions in the past? Does he ever talk about having problems and seek empathy from you?
posted by momus_window at 3:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by momus_window at 3:13 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's not a traditional article, but this earlier AskMe has a lot of good ideas.
posted by michaelh at 3:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by michaelh at 3:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the book How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It could be very interesting read for both of you. Here is a review that gives you a better feel for what is like than the Amazon write up.
The book has a kind of black and white set up - women are always like this, men are always like that - but in the majority of cases where the couple fits the book's rules, it can be really helpful to understand how to improve the sense of connection and safety in the marriage. You could read it and it might give you some ideas of how to approach your husband differently to get what you want. Better yet, he might also read it and get new insight into what you are REALLY asking for. Since it has advice for both partners, it also means that you aren't expecting him to do all the changing.
posted by metahawk at 3:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
The book has a kind of black and white set up - women are always like this, men are always like that - but in the majority of cases where the couple fits the book's rules, it can be really helpful to understand how to improve the sense of connection and safety in the marriage. You could read it and it might give you some ideas of how to approach your husband differently to get what you want. Better yet, he might also read it and get new insight into what you are REALLY asking for. Since it has advice for both partners, it also means that you aren't expecting him to do all the changing.
posted by metahawk at 3:21 PM on October 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
In similar situations, asking for what I want before sharing generally solves most of the problem for me, at least when my conversational partner really does have good intentions. So:
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all
Me: In general yes. I'm a little sad, though, and I don't need you to fix it, I just want to hear "I know, that's tough" and maybe get some cuddles. Do you have energy to hear about that right now?
Him: Sure!
Me: Thing X is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently.
Him: I know, that's tough.
It's also important to keep in mind that it's ok for him not to have the energy to hear about X right now, and not to guilt trip about it (assuming that he does, relatively often, give you time and space to have feelings; if not, that's a bit of a separate question).
posted by lazuli at 3:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all
Me: In general yes. I'm a little sad, though, and I don't need you to fix it, I just want to hear "I know, that's tough" and maybe get some cuddles. Do you have energy to hear about that right now?
Him: Sure!
Me: Thing X is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently.
Him: I know, that's tough.
It's also important to keep in mind that it's ok for him not to have the energy to hear about X right now, and not to guilt trip about it (assuming that he does, relatively often, give you time and space to have feelings; if not, that's a bit of a separate question).
posted by lazuli at 3:25 PM on October 19, 2016 [20 favorites]
Many years ago, as a man in my 20's, I read Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus, and I found it very helpful. Its main premise, if I'm remembering correctly, is that women like to talk about issues and seek comfort and empathy, not advice (at least not immediately). Meanwhile, men generally don't want to talk about their issues and men try to solve their issues by themselves, or are responsive to hearing others' advice but men will still want to come to a conclusion on their own.
Even though I know this is a thing, I sometimes continue to lapse into an automatic advice-giver to my wife instead of being an empathetic listener. However, when it's pointed out to me I don't argue and I do try to be a better listener from the get go.
Hopefully if your husband reads any of the suggested readings, or even this thread, he'll see that he can't just act the same way. He should see his behaviour not as a personal character fault but that there can be benefits to a relationship by adjusting his behaviour, nevertheless.
posted by praiseb at 3:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even though I know this is a thing, I sometimes continue to lapse into an automatic advice-giver to my wife instead of being an empathetic listener. However, when it's pointed out to me I don't argue and I do try to be a better listener from the get go.
Hopefully if your husband reads any of the suggested readings, or even this thread, he'll see that he can't just act the same way. He should see his behaviour not as a personal character fault but that there can be benefits to a relationship by adjusting his behaviour, nevertheless.
posted by praiseb at 3:41 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
And I have problem X too
If this is true, this makes it a lot harder to just give a person a script to follow or ask them to do what would be completely reasonable if you were talking about any other kind of thing. like for imaginary example, if I complain to my friend with a job how much I hate being unemployed, I have one set of expectations, and I feel justified in getting annoyed if they're not met or in just asking them to say other things. But if I complain to my friend with a migraine about how much I hate my migraines and she says, yeah, I get them too and talking about them makes it hurt worse, could we not? then I do not feel justified in asking for the kind of conversation I like.
it depends what X is of course. and you could both have X problem but yours is worse, and he's not recognizing that. Or he could try to be a really wonderful person and listen with empathy even though it makes him anxious or depressed to dwell on X without trying to resolve it for his own sake. But it is possible that doing what helps you is hurting him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
If this is true, this makes it a lot harder to just give a person a script to follow or ask them to do what would be completely reasonable if you were talking about any other kind of thing. like for imaginary example, if I complain to my friend with a job how much I hate being unemployed, I have one set of expectations, and I feel justified in getting annoyed if they're not met or in just asking them to say other things. But if I complain to my friend with a migraine about how much I hate my migraines and she says, yeah, I get them too and talking about them makes it hurt worse, could we not? then I do not feel justified in asking for the kind of conversation I like.
it depends what X is of course. and you could both have X problem but yours is worse, and he's not recognizing that. Or he could try to be a really wonderful person and listen with empathy even though it makes him anxious or depressed to dwell on X without trying to resolve it for his own sake. But it is possible that doing what helps you is hurting him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 4:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've used the approach suggested by lazuli with a fair amount of success. It didn't happen over night but my ex was able to stop trying to fix things and just listen to me and empathize usually. And sometimes started to try to fix things and would notice what he was doing and stop. Sometimes you are going to be sad about that thing and it will be good if you can learn how to frame it in a way that makes it clear you are not angry at him about the situation and just want acknowledgment and cuddles as you explained. Marriage, like everything else, is a series of experiments. As it turns out, sometimes they are successful experiments. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:04 PM on October 19, 2016
posted by Bella Donna at 4:04 PM on October 19, 2016
This is going to sound harsh, but I hope you don't take it too hard or too personally, because it's something we're all guilty of from time to time. To lessen the blow, here's the simple solution up front:
If what you want is sympathy cuddles, start with the cuddles and then explain what they are in aid of. That immediately puts the conversation into a context of emotional bonding (togetherness!) rather than of cold, logical argument (divisiveness!). It's then abundantly clear to him that this is not just a bull session with a colleague but a Family Feelings® session.
From what you've described, it looks like maybe he was asking for reassurance that all was well, and in return (brace yourself for the harsh part) you more or less complained, nagged, and lectured at him until it all blew up in your face. And now you're calling into question his entire personality for reacting defensively. Of course he's reacting defensively! Assigning him homework on How To Human can't possibly do anything but stoke his defensiveness into full-blown resentment.
Just hit the reset button on this one.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
If what you want is sympathy cuddles, start with the cuddles and then explain what they are in aid of. That immediately puts the conversation into a context of emotional bonding (togetherness!) rather than of cold, logical argument (divisiveness!). It's then abundantly clear to him that this is not just a bull session with a colleague but a Family Feelings® session.
From what you've described, it looks like maybe he was asking for reassurance that all was well, and in return (brace yourself for the harsh part) you more or less complained, nagged, and lectured at him until it all blew up in your face. And now you're calling into question his entire personality for reacting defensively. Of course he's reacting defensively! Assigning him homework on How To Human can't possibly do anything but stoke his defensiveness into full-blown resentment.
Just hit the reset button on this one.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:05 PM on October 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
I'm not much on the idea of "fixing" a partner's communication style. Ask for what you want. For example cuddles and just listen to me while I bitch and moan.
Also, fyi, just about everyone in the world gets defensive if they try to respond and get critiqued on their style.
posted by bearwife at 4:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
Also, fyi, just about everyone in the world gets defensive if they try to respond and get critiqued on their style.
posted by bearwife at 4:32 PM on October 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
I wouldn't describe your husband as a crappy communicator based on the example you've given. It sounds like you guys have different communication styles, not that yours is good and his is bad. You should ask him for what you need instead of expecting him to guess what you need.
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by schroedingersgirl at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
My read of that conversation is your husband raised a topic, you offered a meaningful and relevant statement about your situation, and he minimized it, told you how you should think about it, and didn't want to invest further thought on how it impacts you since it's something he already has to cope with himself. I think that stuff happens, you know, and if it weren't a pattern, then whatever. But since you're here, I guess it feels like a pattern, and it does seem uncooperative and emotionally lazy to bounce that stuff back at you saying it's too late, not a big deal, and insofar as it is to handle it yourself. Personally, how I'd hope he'd handle it is with praise for what you're doing well, questions about how he can help, and basically a little bit of a diplomatic or 'customer service' attitude but more genuine (that's just an analogy--what I really have in mind is that a study of airline stewardesses is literally where the phrase emotional labor comes from, and you should see the thread on it elsewhere on MeFi). Sure, he has to cope with the same issue, and so he can reasonably expect you to help him the same way sometimes, either on that issue or some other.
posted by Wobbuffet at 4:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Wobbuffet at 4:46 PM on October 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
The review linked by metahawk, above, is really really interesting.
posted by amtho at 4:51 PM on October 19, 2016
posted by amtho at 4:51 PM on October 19, 2016
Sometimes in the moment people get defensive about stuff, and later after having some time to think about it and get over themselves, they quietly adjust.
posted by bunderful at 5:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bunderful at 5:15 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sort of side-stepping the question (for a moment), but, my family lived in isolation from nearly all the few relatives we had. My beloved Grandma lived on the other side of the continent.
She sent me collage letters with pictures snipped out from magazines -- little amusing what-not, a lot of cut-outs from ads for toys I had, little written commentary here and there, with more writing and fewer pictures as I grew older. (Fortunately my mother put these in scrapbooks, which are among my most cherished possessions.) Often there would be a $1 or $2 in there, and sometimes I'd get a random small present in the post. I learned a lot about letter-writing thanks to this, too.
Grandma flew out to stay with us for three weeks every summer; this was a very much looked forward to event and, for me, three weeks of bliss.
Now I have a kid and live a half hour from my parents. This is cool too; my daughter has a very good relationship with Grandma and Grandpa. But, I still don't feel like I missed out by having relatives far away. My aunt, with costume-making experience, sent a crazy-fabulous handmade Hallowe'en costume for me every year. Etc. My daughter's relationship with her grandparents is different from what mine was, but no less close and loving.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw out that maybe part of the solution here is to collaboratively work on the actual source of the (understandable) upset. Perhaps instead of getting to "And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity," the way to deal with this (type of) conversation is "You know, I wonder what else we could do to keep Hannahlambda Jr really in the loop with extended family. Any thoughts? The Skype is great but is there anything else, etc..."
For a while a relative of mine and I, living far away, had an extremely cheesy fill-in-the blanks sort of scrapbook thing. One of us would keep it for a while, fill in silliness, add photographs, etc, and mail it back to the other one; repeat, repeat. You could do that (without the snark) filling stuff in on Hannahlambda Jr's behalf until she's old enough to do it herself, or whatever. Because it is an unfortunate status quo and I can understand the "it brings negativity." So, when you need to discuss it -- and I'm not saying to not state your need for cuddles -- maybe it's better approached with positive discussions about how to abrogate the disappointments there? Even if there are no new ideas, talking about the positives still opens a discussion.
posted by kmennie at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
She sent me collage letters with pictures snipped out from magazines -- little amusing what-not, a lot of cut-outs from ads for toys I had, little written commentary here and there, with more writing and fewer pictures as I grew older. (Fortunately my mother put these in scrapbooks, which are among my most cherished possessions.) Often there would be a $1 or $2 in there, and sometimes I'd get a random small present in the post. I learned a lot about letter-writing thanks to this, too.
Grandma flew out to stay with us for three weeks every summer; this was a very much looked forward to event and, for me, three weeks of bliss.
Now I have a kid and live a half hour from my parents. This is cool too; my daughter has a very good relationship with Grandma and Grandpa. But, I still don't feel like I missed out by having relatives far away. My aunt, with costume-making experience, sent a crazy-fabulous handmade Hallowe'en costume for me every year. Etc. My daughter's relationship with her grandparents is different from what mine was, but no less close and loving.
Anyway, I just wanted to throw out that maybe part of the solution here is to collaboratively work on the actual source of the (understandable) upset. Perhaps instead of getting to "And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity," the way to deal with this (type of) conversation is "You know, I wonder what else we could do to keep Hannahlambda Jr really in the loop with extended family. Any thoughts? The Skype is great but is there anything else, etc..."
For a while a relative of mine and I, living far away, had an extremely cheesy fill-in-the blanks sort of scrapbook thing. One of us would keep it for a while, fill in silliness, add photographs, etc, and mail it back to the other one; repeat, repeat. You could do that (without the snark) filling stuff in on Hannahlambda Jr's behalf until she's old enough to do it herself, or whatever. Because it is an unfortunate status quo and I can understand the "it brings negativity." So, when you need to discuss it -- and I'm not saying to not state your need for cuddles -- maybe it's better approached with positive discussions about how to abrogate the disappointments there? Even if there are no new ideas, talking about the positives still opens a discussion.
posted by kmennie at 7:20 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Check Deborah Tannen's work—she puts John Gray to shame. You probably want to start with You Just Don't Understand: Women and Men in Conversation.
posted by she's not there at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by she's not there at 7:51 PM on October 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, that exchange could have been from a Deborah Tannen book. The theory is that men are trained to find solutions to problems while women are trained to empathize. I haven't read these in awhile so I'm not sure how out of date it is gender-wise but that does seem to be the dynamic going on here.
posted by betsybetsy at 9:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by betsybetsy at 9:02 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This empathy video is cute and it's under 3 minutes.
Otherwise, I mean if you have a new baby people are exhausted and feeling unappreciated and can be extra defensive. So maybe preface your comments: please don't feel defensive, I just need to bitch and then get a hug.
Or just grab him for a hug? cut straight to the dopamine.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Otherwise, I mean if you have a new baby people are exhausted and feeling unappreciated and can be extra defensive. So maybe preface your comments: please don't feel defensive, I just need to bitch and then get a hug.
Or just grab him for a hug? cut straight to the dopamine.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know if there's a special word for it, but I seen the same dynamic A LOT in hetero married couples. And sadly, I have never, ever seen it resolved. Personally, I can't put myself in the husbands' shoes because I can't imagine going to all the effort of marrying someone if I didn't want to share their thoughts and emotions or what was going on in their lives. I mean, what's the point otherwise? Do they want a spouse, or a roommate/f*** buddy who won't bother them unless they need something? The women I've known who made this kind of marriage work usually ended up just finding somebody else to talk to.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 1:09 AM on October 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Start by reframing your question as a challenge you both face instead of something he is doing wrong.My husband is a crappy communicator.
My husband and I do not communicate well together.
The empathy video linked by St. Peepsburg is part of Brene Brown's TED talk on vulnerability and human connection - it's a good start, especially if you can watch it sitting on the sofa cuddled under a blanket together. Giving him an article to read on his own about communication kind of misses the point.
Also seconding the advice to preface your (absolutely legitimate) complaints with what you'd like from him in response. If he hears your (again, absolutely legitimate) complaints as criticism, he's going to respond defensively. That doesn't mean you need to walk on eggshells around him, but it means you need to meet him halfway: "I'm not complaining about you, or us, or the home we've chosen. I wouldn't change it, I'm just sad about the X part of it. I know you feel X too. I'm glad I have you to lean on." Best if said while cuddling under the blanket on the couch.
posted by headnsouth at 6:17 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
We had some similar conversations, which was basically me expressing a feeling and my partner responding/invalidating it like your husband does. I eventually figured out he was hearing what I said, looking at the situation, running it through his brain computer and getting a does not compute - the feeling didn't make sense to him, so he would tell me that I shouldn't be feeling that way for XYZ reason.
What worked for us was this explanation I gave him:
1. We have rational sides and emotional sides
2. Both of us have valid feelings
3. If I come to you with an emotional problem - an issue that I'm having feelings about - it will end poorly if you try to address it with your rational mind. Feelings don't respond to rational thinking, it often escalates them
4. Part of our partnership is an agreement to be there for each other regardless of if we think it's appropriate for the other person to feel the way they do
5. Therefore, our first response should be to support each other, not to pause the conversation to evaluate whether or not the other person's feelings are valid.
This has been a game changer for us. Another approach that helped was to delve into why this was happening. It turned out my partner was often told as a child that he "shouldn't" be upset/angry/sad about something - there was no tolerance for children's negative emotions in his household. He learned to shut down negative emotions, his own and others'. It wouldn't surprise me if your husband was taught the same. I think our conversations about this have actually been quite healing for him, as he's learned he has a safe space to feel upset and be validated.
posted by theflash at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
What worked for us was this explanation I gave him:
1. We have rational sides and emotional sides
2. Both of us have valid feelings
3. If I come to you with an emotional problem - an issue that I'm having feelings about - it will end poorly if you try to address it with your rational mind. Feelings don't respond to rational thinking, it often escalates them
4. Part of our partnership is an agreement to be there for each other regardless of if we think it's appropriate for the other person to feel the way they do
5. Therefore, our first response should be to support each other, not to pause the conversation to evaluate whether or not the other person's feelings are valid.
This has been a game changer for us. Another approach that helped was to delve into why this was happening. It turned out my partner was often told as a child that he "shouldn't" be upset/angry/sad about something - there was no tolerance for children's negative emotions in his household. He learned to shut down negative emotions, his own and others'. It wouldn't surprise me if your husband was taught the same. I think our conversations about this have actually been quite healing for him, as he's learned he has a safe space to feel upset and be validated.
posted by theflash at 7:32 AM on October 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
This sounds familiar to me because, for a long time, I did the exact same thing as your husband. My partner would express their feelings about something to me, usually something about that was stressful to them, and I would do the exact same "well it hasn't been a picnic for me either!" or "you don't really need to worry about that." Your husband's way of thinking may be completely different from my own, but hopefully some of what follows will sound familiar and be helpful.
Personally, I did (and still catch myself doing) this because of insecurity. I felt (sometimes still feel) like it is an indictment against me, that I haven't been able to make life perfect for her or, even more realistically, like I have a serious deficiency and I have to defend myself by poking holes in how she should feel about things.
Two things have helped me: the first is understanding what my partner is looking for when they comes to these conversation. They are not bringing up this thing that is stressful to them in order to criticize me. They have their own reasons that usually have nothing to do with me. Understanding that my job is to be there to listen and understand what they're saying helps me be less defensive.
Second, understanding that feelings are valid even if they don't represent reality has been a tremendous boon to the way I am able to listen to my partner. Again, I get incredibly defensive when I feel like I am inadequate, so I am prone to react poorly when there are difficult emotions on the table. I made things way, way, worse when I told my partner they were wrong for feeling the way they felt. I now understand (usually, again, this is a work in progress) that feelings are feelings and they are real, but they may not accurately reflect reality.
If I was to offer a solution, I would suggest that you frame the conversation with your own expectations before you get into the thing that bothers you. My partner will sometimes preface things with "this has nothing to do with anything you can control" when they bring up difficulties/stressors and it's great for me because it signals what my responsibility is in this conversation. I can't control it, but I can be there for them. And over time I have begun to learn all of this from an emotional labor standpoint and so I try to take as much responsibility for my own feelings and insecurities as possible but it took a while to get there (and I'm still getting there).
posted by Tevin at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Personally, I did (and still catch myself doing) this because of insecurity. I felt (sometimes still feel) like it is an indictment against me, that I haven't been able to make life perfect for her or, even more realistically, like I have a serious deficiency and I have to defend myself by poking holes in how she should feel about things.
Two things have helped me: the first is understanding what my partner is looking for when they comes to these conversation. They are not bringing up this thing that is stressful to them in order to criticize me. They have their own reasons that usually have nothing to do with me. Understanding that my job is to be there to listen and understand what they're saying helps me be less defensive.
Second, understanding that feelings are valid even if they don't represent reality has been a tremendous boon to the way I am able to listen to my partner. Again, I get incredibly defensive when I feel like I am inadequate, so I am prone to react poorly when there are difficult emotions on the table. I made things way, way, worse when I told my partner they were wrong for feeling the way they felt. I now understand (usually, again, this is a work in progress) that feelings are feelings and they are real, but they may not accurately reflect reality.
If I was to offer a solution, I would suggest that you frame the conversation with your own expectations before you get into the thing that bothers you. My partner will sometimes preface things with "this has nothing to do with anything you can control" when they bring up difficulties/stressors and it's great for me because it signals what my responsibility is in this conversation. I can't control it, but I can be there for them. And over time I have begun to learn all of this from an emotional labor standpoint and so I try to take as much responsibility for my own feelings and insecurities as possible but it took a while to get there (and I'm still getting there).
posted by Tevin at 7:57 AM on October 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am a fan of metacommunication, which I think is nicely outlined in Kathy Labriola's video here. She is a polyamory expert, but I think much of her work applies to many relationship configurations. More videos here.
posted by analog at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by analog at 8:15 AM on October 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I disagree with Sys Rq's read of the conversation that you described, and frankly, I'm not thrilled that the words "nag", "lecture" and "complain" were used to describe your very reasonable (and very normal!) desire to have your husband not respond like a defensive jagoff when you shared your feelings with him. Which, by the way, HE SPECIFICALLY ASKED YOU TO SHARE WITH HIM.
Here's what I got from this exchange:
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all = "I'm checking in with you to see how you're doing emotionally and in general because I am a good and thoughtful husband who loves his wife." So he started this conversation off by inquiring about your feelings. Which would be awesome! If he'd been able to stick the landing.
Me: In general yes but this thing X is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently. = "Yeah, mostly, but I'm still bummed that my family is so far away from us and our newborn even though our reasons for being here are totally valid." Totally reasonable to want to be able to share more fun, in-person baby times with your parents and to be a little sad about not being able to as often as you'd like. He asked you how you were feeling, and you responded honestly to the question.
Him: But X isn't really a problem which effects you. = "Oh shit, you actually HAVE a thing you're sad about? I had not planned for this eventuality when I brought it up and do not actually want to deal with this right now and will now try to hand-wave away this feeling of yours by explaining to you why it's not actually a problem. There, fixed."
Sorry, but the fact that YOUR parents don't live near enough to you that you can have cute fun baby visit times and/or call upon them in a pinch for emergency child care is something that is somehow not supposed to affect you? To say NOTHING of how YOU feel about not being able to visit with them? By any chance, are you the primary caregiver for this child? Because that would explain A LOT.
And anyway we should have thought about X before making our life decisions. "The fact that we (but really, YOU) were not clairvoyant about all possible long-term emotional repercussions that would ensue as a result of our decision to move far away from your family and have a baby is a problem I am choosing to ignore. Also, once you make a choice, even if it is a good one, you are never, ever allowed to have conflicting feelings about it, ever, no matter what."
I personally would be PISSED AS HELL if I'd shared my feelings WHEN EXPLICITLY ASKED TO DO SO and instead of a meaningful dialogue or empathy got a "well, what you SHOULD have done was..." Seriously? Thanks EVER SO for the INCREDIBLY USEFUL AND TIMELY ADVICE that what I ACTUALLY should have done in this situation was PREDICT THE GODDAMN FUTURE down to my exact feelings about all things and prepare accordingly years in advance. This is great advice. Really. You are SOOOOOO helpful right now.
Me: ... I can only assume that this is stunned silence from the strange direction this conversation has taken.
Him: And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity. = "When I asked you if you were happy, I was kind of just looking for a non-committal vaguely positive response so I wouldn't have to do any actual emotional labor. Instead, you responded with a 'yes, but...' that has reminded me of my own sad feelings and I don't have the emotional maturity to deal with bad feelings without taking it out on others. So let me first minimize and dismiss your feelings and then follow it up by reminding you that I TOO have far away parents and therefore your feelings about the matter are irrelevant. And your bringing it up is really harshing my mellow, man."
Dude just "But what about the menzzzz??"-ed your conversation about your own feelings, which are 100% valid. He took your sharing your feelings with him as a personal attack (maybe he was the impetus for the move and thinks that your talking about feeling sad about the distance is a passive-aggressive dig? childish, but I could see it) rather than the open conversation he invited in the first place. I feel like I would be just as annoyed by this exchange as you were, if not more. Why even ask me how I was feeling if you didn't want an honest answer??
what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you, X is tough, *cuddles* I agree with some of the other posters that a good way to start conversations off where you KNOW what you want is a friendly ear and a hug is by stating that first and letting it go from there, or by explicitly stating that you need hugs, not a solution before you begin sharing your problems, especially if you know they have a tendency to enter "fix-it" mode.
It may even be helpful for you to explain during a non-heated time to your husband what you need under specific circumstances so that when he encounters similar situations in the future, he has an idea of what you're looking for. (Note: this only works if he cares enough to commit this knowledge that you've shared with him to memory rather than just throwing up his hands and responding "IDK what you waaaaaant" every time it comes up again. ASK ME HOW I KNOW.)
But frankly, even with differing communication styles between the genders being taken into consideration, it does not take a genius, a super-emotionally intelligent person, or a trained therapist to know that when someone comes to you and says they've got some sad feelings about a thing that is, by and large, not a thing that is easily fixed, the correct response is pretty much universally, "Yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry you're feeling so crummy about it. Is there anything I can do?" You can go ahead and give your husband that quote as a script, if you like.
If I'm being VERY generous and I believed that, by opening this conversation with you, he was also looking for some reciprocal empathy, I could see amending the response to, "Yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry you're sad. I'm struggling with some of that myself, but I try not to think about it because it bums me out." Which is totally different from the "I am also dealing with problem X and instead of commiserating with you about my own sad feelings, I'd rather just shut you down and never talk about it ever" response that he gave you.
You asked for some terminology, so here is some vocabulary to describe this situation:
"Tone policing" - What your husband thinks you're doing when you tell him what you need from him in a conversation about feelings, but what he's actually forcing YOU to do to yourself by reacting defensively.
"Emotional labor" - the largely invisible work of managing feelings and expectations in addition to communicating information; additionally, the unacknowledged and undervalued work that goes into things like relationship maintenance, keeping up with housework and appointments, and sending holiday cards. (FYI, this thread is sooooo long, but it is a very good one.)
"Knee jerk reaction" - a strong, defensive emotional reaction provoked by the introduction of a topic to which the person is particularly sensitive (i.e. your husband's response in this situation)
"Self centered" - being so preoccupied with one's self that there is no room to care what others are doing
I'm leaving off with this:
what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you"
I would posit that it is a damn near universal need to feel like you've been heard and really listened to by a person you care about and to whom you're opening up. You are not asking for the moon here. You are asking for your husband, who you love, to be a source of emotional support for you, especially since your family is so far away.
Rather than being that for you, rather than attempting to empathize or at least sympathize with you, he is instead waving away your feelings and turning the conversation around to be all about HIM and HIS feelings and forcing YOU to be so preoccupied responding to his offense that by the time you cool off and circle back to the original issue (i.e. YOUR VALID FEELINGS), you'll be too tired to bring it up again.
That. Is. BULLSHIT.
He is capable of doing better. You are within your rights as an equal partner in a relationship to require it of him, however you choose to approach it. Good luck.
posted by helloimjennsco at 12:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
Here's what I got from this exchange:
Him: I hope you're happy with life and all = "I'm checking in with you to see how you're doing emotionally and in general because I am a good and thoughtful husband who loves his wife." So he started this conversation off by inquiring about your feelings. Which would be awesome! If he'd been able to stick the landing.
Me: In general yes but this thing X is on my mind and getting me down a lot recently. = "Yeah, mostly, but I'm still bummed that my family is so far away from us and our newborn even though our reasons for being here are totally valid." Totally reasonable to want to be able to share more fun, in-person baby times with your parents and to be a little sad about not being able to as often as you'd like. He asked you how you were feeling, and you responded honestly to the question.
Him: But X isn't really a problem which effects you. = "Oh shit, you actually HAVE a thing you're sad about? I had not planned for this eventuality when I brought it up and do not actually want to deal with this right now and will now try to hand-wave away this feeling of yours by explaining to you why it's not actually a problem. There, fixed."
Sorry, but the fact that YOUR parents don't live near enough to you that you can have cute fun baby visit times and/or call upon them in a pinch for emergency child care is something that is somehow not supposed to affect you? To say NOTHING of how YOU feel about not being able to visit with them? By any chance, are you the primary caregiver for this child? Because that would explain A LOT.
And anyway we should have thought about X before making our life decisions. "The fact that we (but really, YOU) were not clairvoyant about all possible long-term emotional repercussions that would ensue as a result of our decision to move far away from your family and have a baby is a problem I am choosing to ignore. Also, once you make a choice, even if it is a good one, you are never, ever allowed to have conflicting feelings about it, ever, no matter what."
I personally would be PISSED AS HELL if I'd shared my feelings WHEN EXPLICITLY ASKED TO DO SO and instead of a meaningful dialogue or empathy got a "well, what you SHOULD have done was..." Seriously? Thanks EVER SO for the INCREDIBLY USEFUL AND TIMELY ADVICE that what I ACTUALLY should have done in this situation was PREDICT THE GODDAMN FUTURE down to my exact feelings about all things and prepare accordingly years in advance. This is great advice. Really. You are SOOOOOO helpful right now.
Me: ... I can only assume that this is stunned silence from the strange direction this conversation has taken.
Him: And I have problem X too and anyway, hearing about it brings a lot of negativity. = "When I asked you if you were happy, I was kind of just looking for a non-committal vaguely positive response so I wouldn't have to do any actual emotional labor. Instead, you responded with a 'yes, but...' that has reminded me of my own sad feelings and I don't have the emotional maturity to deal with bad feelings without taking it out on others. So let me first minimize and dismiss your feelings and then follow it up by reminding you that I TOO have far away parents and therefore your feelings about the matter are irrelevant. And your bringing it up is really harshing my mellow, man."
Dude just "But what about the menzzzz??"-ed your conversation about your own feelings, which are 100% valid. He took your sharing your feelings with him as a personal attack (maybe he was the impetus for the move and thinks that your talking about feeling sad about the distance is a passive-aggressive dig? childish, but I could see it) rather than the open conversation he invited in the first place. I feel like I would be just as annoyed by this exchange as you were, if not more. Why even ask me how I was feeling if you didn't want an honest answer??
what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you, X is tough, *cuddles* I agree with some of the other posters that a good way to start conversations off where you KNOW what you want is a friendly ear and a hug is by stating that first and letting it go from there, or by explicitly stating that you need hugs, not a solution before you begin sharing your problems, especially if you know they have a tendency to enter "fix-it" mode.
It may even be helpful for you to explain during a non-heated time to your husband what you need under specific circumstances so that when he encounters similar situations in the future, he has an idea of what you're looking for. (Note: this only works if he cares enough to commit this knowledge that you've shared with him to memory rather than just throwing up his hands and responding "IDK what you waaaaaant" every time it comes up again. ASK ME HOW I KNOW.)
But frankly, even with differing communication styles between the genders being taken into consideration, it does not take a genius, a super-emotionally intelligent person, or a trained therapist to know that when someone comes to you and says they've got some sad feelings about a thing that is, by and large, not a thing that is easily fixed, the correct response is pretty much universally, "Yeah, that sucks. I'm sorry you're feeling so crummy about it. Is there anything I can do?" You can go ahead and give your husband that quote as a script, if you like.
If I'm being VERY generous and I believed that, by opening this conversation with you, he was also looking for some reciprocal empathy, I could see amending the response to, "Yeah, that sucks and I'm sorry you're sad. I'm struggling with some of that myself, but I try not to think about it because it bums me out." Which is totally different from the "I am also dealing with problem X and instead of commiserating with you about my own sad feelings, I'd rather just shut you down and never talk about it ever" response that he gave you.
You asked for some terminology, so here is some vocabulary to describe this situation:
"Tone policing" - What your husband thinks you're doing when you tell him what you need from him in a conversation about feelings, but what he's actually forcing YOU to do to yourself by reacting defensively.
"Emotional labor" - the largely invisible work of managing feelings and expectations in addition to communicating information; additionally, the unacknowledged and undervalued work that goes into things like relationship maintenance, keeping up with housework and appointments, and sending holiday cards. (FYI, this thread is sooooo long, but it is a very good one.)
"Knee jerk reaction" - a strong, defensive emotional reaction provoked by the introduction of a topic to which the person is particularly sensitive (i.e. your husband's response in this situation)
"Self centered" - being so preoccupied with one's self that there is no room to care what others are doing
I'm leaving off with this:
what I NEEDED to hear was "I hear you"
I would posit that it is a damn near universal need to feel like you've been heard and really listened to by a person you care about and to whom you're opening up. You are not asking for the moon here. You are asking for your husband, who you love, to be a source of emotional support for you, especially since your family is so far away.
Rather than being that for you, rather than attempting to empathize or at least sympathize with you, he is instead waving away your feelings and turning the conversation around to be all about HIM and HIS feelings and forcing YOU to be so preoccupied responding to his offense that by the time you cool off and circle back to the original issue (i.e. YOUR VALID FEELINGS), you'll be too tired to bring it up again.
That. Is. BULLSHIT.
He is capable of doing better. You are within your rights as an equal partner in a relationship to require it of him, however you choose to approach it. Good luck.
posted by helloimjennsco at 12:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
I disagree with Sys Rq's read of the conversation that you described, and frankly, I'm not thrilled that the words "nag", "lecture" and "complain" were used to describe your very reasonable (and very normal!) desire to have your husband not respond like a defensive jagoff when you shared your feelings with him.
Seconded. You were NOT lecturing or nagging (what a sexist word!). You clearly stated your feelings and your needs, which is COMPLETELY NORMAL AND REASONABLE.
posted by a strong female character at 6:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seconded. You were NOT lecturing or nagging (what a sexist word!). You clearly stated your feelings and your needs, which is COMPLETELY NORMAL AND REASONABLE.
posted by a strong female character at 6:52 PM on October 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
In our house, 'You are not listening to me the way I need to be heard' is the cue used by one to the other to indicate we're not optimally clicking.
'You're not listening to me the way I need to be heard' doesn't assign blame to either party, it's a verbal flag that alerts both people that we're not on the same page and the experience is becoming frustrating for at least one person.
For example, I used to be a talk in the car when I'm the copilot while driving in heavy traffic person. I had nothing better to do, we're just sitting there! I'd start to discuss something personally important and sometimes somewhat emotional. I was getting half-hearted mmhmms and uninvited suggestions for how to fix an unrelated issue back in return. So, so, so unuseful. And that's the stuff that I'll fume/pout about for stupidly long.
So, as I learned in couples counseling, I said, 'you are not listening to me like I need to be heard right now'. That's when they, who also recognized the cue, twigged. They said calmly that the traffic is awful and they are really trying to pay attention to the task of driving. That's the day I became aware that for us it's not that they don't care about me, my feelings and what I'm saying, but the place/time can make a big difference in the quality of our interactions, and once I recognized why our lines were crossing it was totally easy for me to switch to a different topic, saving the initial one for a better time. Bonus: as a result, when the better time arrived I also got their eye contact back since they no longer were watching the road.
I don't know if this pertains to what you're working through, but it has been a surprisingly useful phrase in our home. As has been the couple's counseling.
posted by mcbeth at 6:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
'You're not listening to me the way I need to be heard' doesn't assign blame to either party, it's a verbal flag that alerts both people that we're not on the same page and the experience is becoming frustrating for at least one person.
For example, I used to be a talk in the car when I'm the copilot while driving in heavy traffic person. I had nothing better to do, we're just sitting there! I'd start to discuss something personally important and sometimes somewhat emotional. I was getting half-hearted mmhmms and uninvited suggestions for how to fix an unrelated issue back in return. So, so, so unuseful. And that's the stuff that I'll fume/pout about for stupidly long.
So, as I learned in couples counseling, I said, 'you are not listening to me like I need to be heard right now'. That's when they, who also recognized the cue, twigged. They said calmly that the traffic is awful and they are really trying to pay attention to the task of driving. That's the day I became aware that for us it's not that they don't care about me, my feelings and what I'm saying, but the place/time can make a big difference in the quality of our interactions, and once I recognized why our lines were crossing it was totally easy for me to switch to a different topic, saving the initial one for a better time. Bonus: as a result, when the better time arrived I also got their eye contact back since they no longer were watching the road.
I don't know if this pertains to what you're working through, but it has been a surprisingly useful phrase in our home. As has been the couple's counseling.
posted by mcbeth at 6:11 AM on October 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Haven't read all of this, so apologies if someone else brought this up.
I find when talking to male SOs, they will very rarely talk about feelings. See, you started that conversation out with feelings, "This thing is getting me down" and he went immediately into LOGIC MODE. This is not uncommon. What has worked for me is just INSISTING and basically BULLDOZING past LOGIC MODE and getting to the point that he has feelings, too.
Like, it's almost comical how this has gone:
Me: I feel like you're being distant.
Him: Yeah, I guess I am. I'm tired.
Me: What do you want to do?
Him: I don't care. Whatever you want to do.
Me: Are you upset because I didn't talk to you when I got home from work?
Him: I'm just bored of doing the same thing.
Me: How does that make you feel?
Him: Bored?
Me: Okay, yes. But, like, deeper emotionally than that? Nothing?
Him: I don't know.
Me: You have no feelings right now at all except boredom?
Him: I guess I feel confused?
Me: Confused isn't really a feeling, that's a logic thing.
Him: Okay. *like huge deep breath, scared face* I guess I feel like you don't want to spend time with me when you get home.
Me: And that makes you feel? Looking for a feeling word here. Words like "angry, sad, scared" for example. Those are feelings.
Him: It makes me sad, and scared that you don't care about me.
Me: BINGO.
And then we kiss it out, blah blah blah.
What would have been ideal in the scenario above is that your husband said something like "I feel criticized and inadequate. This makes me ashamed." Or whatever. But it's virtually certain that he is not emotionally aware enough to realize this, and even if he did would probably not accept that talking about feelings is actually more productive, because of cultural conditioning. Seriously, though, it is, because like 90% of people's LOGIC MODE words are just two people dancing around feelings. It saves a lot of time to get straight to the point.
posted by stockpuppet at 8:08 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find when talking to male SOs, they will very rarely talk about feelings. See, you started that conversation out with feelings, "This thing is getting me down" and he went immediately into LOGIC MODE. This is not uncommon. What has worked for me is just INSISTING and basically BULLDOZING past LOGIC MODE and getting to the point that he has feelings, too.
Like, it's almost comical how this has gone:
Me: I feel like you're being distant.
Him: Yeah, I guess I am. I'm tired.
Me: What do you want to do?
Him: I don't care. Whatever you want to do.
Me: Are you upset because I didn't talk to you when I got home from work?
Him: I'm just bored of doing the same thing.
Me: How does that make you feel?
Him: Bored?
Me: Okay, yes. But, like, deeper emotionally than that? Nothing?
Him: I don't know.
Me: You have no feelings right now at all except boredom?
Him: I guess I feel confused?
Me: Confused isn't really a feeling, that's a logic thing.
Him: Okay. *like huge deep breath, scared face* I guess I feel like you don't want to spend time with me when you get home.
Me: And that makes you feel? Looking for a feeling word here. Words like "angry, sad, scared" for example. Those are feelings.
Him: It makes me sad, and scared that you don't care about me.
Me: BINGO.
And then we kiss it out, blah blah blah.
What would have been ideal in the scenario above is that your husband said something like "I feel criticized and inadequate. This makes me ashamed." Or whatever. But it's virtually certain that he is not emotionally aware enough to realize this, and even if he did would probably not accept that talking about feelings is actually more productive, because of cultural conditioning. Seriously, though, it is, because like 90% of people's LOGIC MODE words are just two people dancing around feelings. It saves a lot of time to get straight to the point.
posted by stockpuppet at 8:08 AM on October 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
I reactivated my account to like helliimjennsco's comment.
posted by waving at 6:48 AM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by waving at 6:48 AM on October 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Namlit at 2:50 PM on October 19, 2016 [2 favorites]