Ever seen red flags that weren't actually red flags?
October 11, 2016 3:06 PM Subscribe
A dating question about potential red flags. Am I misjudging this person?
Hey, hive mind. I am both attracted to a guy and somewhat put off by him. The easy thing would be never seeing him again. But I want to be fair. People are complex, imperfect, and also able to change. I'm trying to figure out if I should see this guy again. I spoke to him on the phone before meeting, we've texted plenty, I met him for coffee last weekend, and then we spoke again on the phone today. The context is this: I'm not actually looking for a lover right now. I'm focusing on myself. He doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right now and has made it clear that he'd be super happy to jump me right this second if I let him--which ain't gonna happen any time soon. (We met briefly in real life, not on a dating site, and I suggested we get together because he seemed interesting.)
Here's what I like about him: He's been sober for 32 years. He's a parent, runs his own business, is looking for an emotional connection, is smart, also funny, and is okay about me being a poly person. He also gets many points for being a good kisser.
Here's what I don't like about him: He's in AA; I'm in Al-Anon. When we were talking about steps he tried to correct me on one of them--but we have different programs, so WTF? Also, after an AA non-lover friend killed himself because he'd starting drinking again, I vowed I'd never date even a sober alcoholic again because my life is littered with alcoholics.
He's told me "I want you," in the same tone of voice I heard from another man I dated only once. It was the "I want you" that is supposed to make me fall into his bed because isn't that the height of what women aspire to, to get fucked? Isn't that what validates our very existence and gives us meaning, to be wanted by said guy? Like, it's supposed to be the magic phrase that trumps everything else. He wants, so he must have. Yeah, right.
When I was getting ready to leave after our public meeting and semi-public mild smooching, he invaded my space while I was putting my bag on my bike. I didn't ask for help but he pushed his hands into my space anyway to force the bag on its holder instead of just letting me take the time to do the work. It's kind of a half-assed thing I have going that takes time, which doesn't bother me. He apparently decided to rescue me from my awkwardness or maybe rescue himself from the tedium of watching me fumble, I don't know.
Finally, I spoke to him on the phone today. We had one phone call before the coffee date, then this call. And we talked about various things and he said he accepted that we were at an "impasse". And I was all, "what an interesting choice of word to use. I don't think we're at an impasse. I think we are getting to know one another and that takes time." I think he used that word because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute, and he wants to be my lover right this minute, which equals impasse. The strangest thing of all for me is that he's leaving for a 10-day silent Buddhist meditation retreat tomorrow. He's been a practicing meditator for fucking forever, I've explained that I'm focusing on self-care, not sex, right now and yet he no kidding texts me that I am missing out on improving my wellbeing by having lots and lots of orgasms with his help. As a joke/not joke.
So has anyone dated a man or person who exhibited this kind of behaviour early on who, it turned out later, was not a jerk? Because 95% of him appears to be swell. But really, I don't want to place an order for a refreshing beverage that turns out to be a shit shake. I think he's old-school bossy dressed up in recovery talk and mindfulness quotations. I think I should run the hell away in the opposite direction. Are my objections nitpicks or my gut telling me what matters? Your stories and wisdom most appreciated.
Hey, hive mind. I am both attracted to a guy and somewhat put off by him. The easy thing would be never seeing him again. But I want to be fair. People are complex, imperfect, and also able to change. I'm trying to figure out if I should see this guy again. I spoke to him on the phone before meeting, we've texted plenty, I met him for coffee last weekend, and then we spoke again on the phone today. The context is this: I'm not actually looking for a lover right now. I'm focusing on myself. He doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right now and has made it clear that he'd be super happy to jump me right this second if I let him--which ain't gonna happen any time soon. (We met briefly in real life, not on a dating site, and I suggested we get together because he seemed interesting.)
Here's what I like about him: He's been sober for 32 years. He's a parent, runs his own business, is looking for an emotional connection, is smart, also funny, and is okay about me being a poly person. He also gets many points for being a good kisser.
Here's what I don't like about him: He's in AA; I'm in Al-Anon. When we were talking about steps he tried to correct me on one of them--but we have different programs, so WTF? Also, after an AA non-lover friend killed himself because he'd starting drinking again, I vowed I'd never date even a sober alcoholic again because my life is littered with alcoholics.
He's told me "I want you," in the same tone of voice I heard from another man I dated only once. It was the "I want you" that is supposed to make me fall into his bed because isn't that the height of what women aspire to, to get fucked? Isn't that what validates our very existence and gives us meaning, to be wanted by said guy? Like, it's supposed to be the magic phrase that trumps everything else. He wants, so he must have. Yeah, right.
When I was getting ready to leave after our public meeting and semi-public mild smooching, he invaded my space while I was putting my bag on my bike. I didn't ask for help but he pushed his hands into my space anyway to force the bag on its holder instead of just letting me take the time to do the work. It's kind of a half-assed thing I have going that takes time, which doesn't bother me. He apparently decided to rescue me from my awkwardness or maybe rescue himself from the tedium of watching me fumble, I don't know.
Finally, I spoke to him on the phone today. We had one phone call before the coffee date, then this call. And we talked about various things and he said he accepted that we were at an "impasse". And I was all, "what an interesting choice of word to use. I don't think we're at an impasse. I think we are getting to know one another and that takes time." I think he used that word because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute, and he wants to be my lover right this minute, which equals impasse. The strangest thing of all for me is that he's leaving for a 10-day silent Buddhist meditation retreat tomorrow. He's been a practicing meditator for fucking forever, I've explained that I'm focusing on self-care, not sex, right now and yet he no kidding texts me that I am missing out on improving my wellbeing by having lots and lots of orgasms with his help. As a joke/not joke.
So has anyone dated a man or person who exhibited this kind of behaviour early on who, it turned out later, was not a jerk? Because 95% of him appears to be swell. But really, I don't want to place an order for a refreshing beverage that turns out to be a shit shake. I think he's old-school bossy dressed up in recovery talk and mindfulness quotations. I think I should run the hell away in the opposite direction. Are my objections nitpicks or my gut telling me what matters? Your stories and wisdom most appreciated.
Really, the way you've described him is NOT "95% swell." It's a description of an unpleasant, boundary pushing jerk. It doesn't really sound like you like him that much, and no, no one is obligated to give someone a chance at dating out of some sense of fairness. It sounds like he's pinging your radar in a bad way and you're trying to find excuses not to listen to your gut about him. Since you mention that you have past bad experiences with alcoholics, I think you should listen to your gut here that this guy is not the right guy for you.
posted by MsMolly at 3:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [84 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 3:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [84 favorites]
To be honest, after reading that, I'm at a compete loss as to why you're even considering dating this guy. Other than some sort of generic good qualities and being a good kisser, you seem to think he's kind of a jerk. And frankly, it sounds like you're probably right: He wants sex and you don't and he's being kind of gross about it; he's texting you obnoxious "jokes" about having sex with him even high you've made it clear you don't want to; he's "bossy dressed up in mindfulness and recovery quotations." Plus he's an alcoholic, which you say is pretty much a deal breaker. Am I missing something here?
posted by holborne at 3:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by holborne at 3:19 PM on October 11, 2016 [23 favorites]
I'm not seeing any of this 95% swell in your description. I think you should listen to your gut and cut ties. People can change, but... only when they want to and for reasons they want to. He seems pretty up front about who he is and what he wants. Going into this hoping he turns out to be someone else seems to be a recipe for frustration.
posted by Caravantea at 3:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Caravantea at 3:20 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
People try to make good impressions with people they want to sleep with. This is him on best behaviour.
posted by miles1972 at 3:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [69 favorites]
posted by miles1972 at 3:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [69 favorites]
Giving someone the benefit of the doubt is just another way of saying, "I have serious and realistic doubts about this person." Giving someone the benefit of the doubt only serves to erode your own standards. Articulating the doubts to yourself and, if reasonable or worthwhile, to the other person, is the uncomfortable but fruitful place to pause in these situations.
posted by cocoagirl at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by cocoagirl at 3:28 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think he's old-school bossy dressed up in recovery talk and mindfulness quotations. I think I should run the hell away in the opposite direction.
Trust yourself on this one. Or watch that 95% goodness, 5% shit shake become a 50:50 ratio or worse.
Putting aside the alcoholism, this guy sounds like he doesn't respect your feelings or decisions. He's not much more than a stranger to you and he's already trying to persuade you he knows better. Yuck. And just imagine how invasive and oppressive he could be in bed if he he doesn't know the basics about respecting someone's personal space and has blunt interpersonal responses. "Pushing his hands into your space". Double yuck. Chances of mind-blowing orgasms - not high.
In the past I've been attracted to men with the kind of self-confidence (arrogance) to tell me what I needed, i.e. what they wanted me to want from them. So far for me it's always ended up with painful minimising of my own experience, horrible doubt, ridiculous extrications, followed eventually after many months/years (sometimes including therapy) with head slapping and sudden realisations: "ohmygodwhydidn'tIlistentomygoddamninstinctduhhhh".
I think you already know you can do better. Best to you.
posted by doornoise at 3:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
Trust yourself on this one. Or watch that 95% goodness, 5% shit shake become a 50:50 ratio or worse.
Putting aside the alcoholism, this guy sounds like he doesn't respect your feelings or decisions. He's not much more than a stranger to you and he's already trying to persuade you he knows better. Yuck. And just imagine how invasive and oppressive he could be in bed if he he doesn't know the basics about respecting someone's personal space and has blunt interpersonal responses. "Pushing his hands into your space". Double yuck. Chances of mind-blowing orgasms - not high.
In the past I've been attracted to men with the kind of self-confidence (arrogance) to tell me what I needed, i.e. what they wanted me to want from them. So far for me it's always ended up with painful minimising of my own experience, horrible doubt, ridiculous extrications, followed eventually after many months/years (sometimes including therapy) with head slapping and sudden realisations: "ohmygodwhydidn'tIlistentomygoddamninstinctduhhhh".
I think you already know you can do better. Best to you.
posted by doornoise at 3:30 PM on October 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
It really sounds like you don't click with this guy and have multiple fundamental incompatibilities. It's perfectly OK to discover that you don't want to date someone. Stop dating him and don't worry about whether any of this falls into the category of jerk or good person who deserves a chance or what. Nobody is so wonderful that you should ignore all your feelings about them because they "deserve" to be dating you.
(FWIW he doesn't sound like red flag material per se, just like a lot of dudes who mansplain and aren't particularly good listeners.)
posted by Sara C. at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
(FWIW he doesn't sound like red flag material per se, just like a lot of dudes who mansplain and aren't particularly good listeners.)
posted by Sara C. at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
potential red flags. . . But I want to be fair
Be fair to yourself. Those flags add up to more than a 5% not-swell warning. You had coffee, you kissed, you tried it out. That's a great fair chance. Walk away and be happy that you spotted the red flags early.
posted by carrioncomfort at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Be fair to yourself. Those flags add up to more than a 5% not-swell warning. You had coffee, you kissed, you tried it out. That's a great fair chance. Walk away and be happy that you spotted the red flags early.
posted by carrioncomfort at 3:31 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
He sounds like a total ass to me.
posted by Stewriffic at 3:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Stewriffic at 3:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Even assuming he does have redeeming qualities and that you're only describing the bad parts of his personality ... the fact that you gave an incredibly vivid description of the red flags and only generic good qualities says you, at least, don't really want him.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by steady-state strawberry at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: This guy seems to annoy the crap out of you. Maybe you are a nitpicky pain in the ass yourself (do you always consider dating people you really dislike?) but I suspect you are not. This isn't working for you so it doesn't work. "I want you" can be sexy from the right person. It doesn't work for you, that's fine. But there's nothing wrong with the guy saying it, it's just a bad fit indicator. You seem to be wanting people to tell you "Yeah there's something wrong with the way this guy behaved" but in the right context, it would be fine. But that right context isn't with you. Which is AOK fine. I'd move on.
posted by jessamyn at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 3:37 PM on October 11, 2016 [17 favorites]
He is pushy about you having sex with him, even though you have made it clear that you don't want that. This is not respectful of boundaries and comes across as skeezy and manipulative. You don't need a guy in your life who's begging you to have sex in spite of your stated wishes.
posted by delight at 3:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by delight at 3:38 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
If you have to talk yourself into dating someone, it's not someone you should date.
posted by cecic at 3:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by cecic at 3:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think these are actual red flags for you and you should listen to them. People are complex and imperfect, sure, but they rarely change that much. And if you want things to change about a person right when you meet them, do both of you a favor and cut them loose. (Kind of implied here, my apologies if that's not what you meant.)
After you break it off/slow fade/whatever, maybe something to discuss with your Al-Anon group is this contradiction: you like that he's sober but didn't like that he's in AA. Maybe some clarity on that would help you in the future.
I also don't understand why you're dating anyone if you don't want a lover? That's still ABSOLUTELY no reason for someone not to respect your boundaries or wishes though.
posted by purple_bird at 3:43 PM on October 11, 2016
After you break it off/slow fade/whatever, maybe something to discuss with your Al-Anon group is this contradiction: you like that he's sober but didn't like that he's in AA. Maybe some clarity on that would help you in the future.
I also don't understand why you're dating anyone if you don't want a lover? That's still ABSOLUTELY no reason for someone not to respect your boundaries or wishes though.
posted by purple_bird at 3:43 PM on October 11, 2016
He's told me "I want you," in the same tone of voice I heard from another man I dated only once.
I think he used that word because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute
Look, he could very well be a total ass, in which case you know what to do.
Regardless of the kind of person he is, you are applying your own meanings and interpretations to his words and actions. His meanings are going to be different than what they would be if you did the exact same thing.
Any person worth getting to know is worth asking what their meanings are, rather than assuming they match your own.
posted by trinity8-director at 3:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think he used that word because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute
Look, he could very well be a total ass, in which case you know what to do.
Regardless of the kind of person he is, you are applying your own meanings and interpretations to his words and actions. His meanings are going to be different than what they would be if you did the exact same thing.
Any person worth getting to know is worth asking what their meanings are, rather than assuming they match your own.
posted by trinity8-director at 3:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
You don't have to date someone just because they might not be a complete jerk.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 3:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
But I want to be fair.
Any time you're saying this to yourself you should probably just bounce.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
Any time you're saying this to yourself you should probably just bounce.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:51 PM on October 11, 2016 [27 favorites]
Best answer: If you're not looking for a lover right now, why go on a date?
TBH, he doesn't sound like a jerk to me, just someone with a very different perspective than you and he's looking for something very different to what you're looking for.
I think the bag thing is definitely a nit-pick, you appeared to be struggling with something and he tried to help. Yes, he's pushing boundaries a bit but on the other hand you're giving him mixed signals so he might think you're playing hard to get or whatever - you say you're not looking for a lover right now but you ask him out, then you get smoochy with him on your first date so that might give him the impression that these boundaries are negotiable. The wellbeing via orgasms, could be a line or it could be something he genuinely believes in and lots of women want to be wanted.
So to me, nothing here is a flat out big red flag but he's right that you are at an impasse - what you're looking for and what he's looking for are mutually exclusive. Plus it really doesn't sound like you like him that much, if you're nitpicking his tone of voice already, its over before it began. It sounds like you like the idea of him - his "on paper" attributes but it sounds like he really irritates you.
There will be other guys, you don't need to get this one on the hook for when you're ready to date again
posted by missmagenta at 4:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
TBH, he doesn't sound like a jerk to me, just someone with a very different perspective than you and he's looking for something very different to what you're looking for.
I think the bag thing is definitely a nit-pick, you appeared to be struggling with something and he tried to help. Yes, he's pushing boundaries a bit but on the other hand you're giving him mixed signals so he might think you're playing hard to get or whatever - you say you're not looking for a lover right now but you ask him out, then you get smoochy with him on your first date so that might give him the impression that these boundaries are negotiable. The wellbeing via orgasms, could be a line or it could be something he genuinely believes in and lots of women want to be wanted.
So to me, nothing here is a flat out big red flag but he's right that you are at an impasse - what you're looking for and what he's looking for are mutually exclusive. Plus it really doesn't sound like you like him that much, if you're nitpicking his tone of voice already, its over before it began. It sounds like you like the idea of him - his "on paper" attributes but it sounds like he really irritates you.
There will be other guys, you don't need to get this one on the hook for when you're ready to date again
posted by missmagenta at 4:10 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Best answer: I have dated this kind of person before, and he absolutely turned out to be a jerk.
This guy sounds like he thinks he's always objectively right. And if he's right about something, then anyone who has a different opinion is wrong. Just like he thinks you're wrong that you don't want a lover. Not recognizing that other people can have different wants and needs than him, and different ways to satisfy those wants and needs, is a top mark of an asshole. Probably his meditation is about how right he is about the way the world works, and how if everyone just did things his way, everything would be better.
I want to be fair
It sounds like you value some measure of objectivity too, and that's perfectly reasonable. Like so many traits, it's the dosage that matters.
Being fair in a relationship is about communicating your needs, respecting the other person's choices, not stringing them along if you don't want to see them anymore, that kind of thing. By that metric, he's not being very fair to you already by disregarding your boundaries. Fairness is not about staying with a person because they tick certain boxes and that makes them good enough. Fairness is not "they showed up, and they're okay I guess, so I should date them until that changes." In fact, that wouldn't be fair to yourself, because relationships are for people you like, and it doesn't sounds like you like this guy a whole lot.
A relationship isn't a contest where you're the judge. It's not supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be fun.
You don't need a reason to stop seeing him. You don't need to put your finger on exactly what's wrong. You don't need to justify it to him, or to anyone else, even to yourself. "I'm just not feeling it" is enough.
posted by danceswithlight at 4:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
This guy sounds like he thinks he's always objectively right. And if he's right about something, then anyone who has a different opinion is wrong. Just like he thinks you're wrong that you don't want a lover. Not recognizing that other people can have different wants and needs than him, and different ways to satisfy those wants and needs, is a top mark of an asshole. Probably his meditation is about how right he is about the way the world works, and how if everyone just did things his way, everything would be better.
I want to be fair
It sounds like you value some measure of objectivity too, and that's perfectly reasonable. Like so many traits, it's the dosage that matters.
Being fair in a relationship is about communicating your needs, respecting the other person's choices, not stringing them along if you don't want to see them anymore, that kind of thing. By that metric, he's not being very fair to you already by disregarding your boundaries. Fairness is not about staying with a person because they tick certain boxes and that makes them good enough. Fairness is not "they showed up, and they're okay I guess, so I should date them until that changes." In fact, that wouldn't be fair to yourself, because relationships are for people you like, and it doesn't sounds like you like this guy a whole lot.
A relationship isn't a contest where you're the judge. It's not supposed to be fair. It's supposed to be fun.
You don't need a reason to stop seeing him. You don't need to put your finger on exactly what's wrong. You don't need to justify it to him, or to anyone else, even to yourself. "I'm just not feeling it" is enough.
posted by danceswithlight at 4:18 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: He's old school bossy dressed up in recovery talk and mindfulness quotations. I've met many versions of him.
You see it for what it is because you're working a good program, and he's lost his ability to moderate how others see him because he's not. (Otherwise you would not be seeing right through him.)
I think what you did there with the impasse talk was A+ excellently said, honest, and direct. If one of my sponsees told me she did that, I would have given her a high five. Ten bucks says he gets home from his mindfulness retreat and uses it as a bludgeon: "I was gone for ten days and I couldn't stop thinking about you, that's how I know we're meant to be together." He is not going to come back from his retreat and text you to say, "You know, I violated your boundaries and I'm sorry, if you want to stay in touch I'm receptive but otherwise the ball is in your court."
One of the things that I learned in my own Al-Anon recovery is that there was a time when I stopped trusting my instincts and didn't even realize it. I spent so long being gaslighted that I didn't understand my place in reality anymore. Building back that sense of connectedness between myself and the world took time and came in fits and spurts. Sometimes I'd see that I was making a good choice and actively question it, like my pre-recovery brain was battling my recovery-brain.
He is neither a refreshing beverage nor a shit shake; he is an imperfect man in recovery. You said it yourself: you are not even thirsty.
posted by juniperesque at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
You see it for what it is because you're working a good program, and he's lost his ability to moderate how others see him because he's not. (Otherwise you would not be seeing right through him.)
I think what you did there with the impasse talk was A+ excellently said, honest, and direct. If one of my sponsees told me she did that, I would have given her a high five. Ten bucks says he gets home from his mindfulness retreat and uses it as a bludgeon: "I was gone for ten days and I couldn't stop thinking about you, that's how I know we're meant to be together." He is not going to come back from his retreat and text you to say, "You know, I violated your boundaries and I'm sorry, if you want to stay in touch I'm receptive but otherwise the ball is in your court."
One of the things that I learned in my own Al-Anon recovery is that there was a time when I stopped trusting my instincts and didn't even realize it. I spent so long being gaslighted that I didn't understand my place in reality anymore. Building back that sense of connectedness between myself and the world took time and came in fits and spurts. Sometimes I'd see that I was making a good choice and actively question it, like my pre-recovery brain was battling my recovery-brain.
He is neither a refreshing beverage nor a shit shake; he is an imperfect man in recovery. You said it yourself: you are not even thirsty.
posted by juniperesque at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
He sounds like a jerk at worst and someone who wants something very different from you at best and in fact is probably some combination of both of those extremes. Don't go out with him again. You're not matched in personality or in what either of you are looking for at the moment.
That said, I can't help wondering what exactly you are looking for and setting expectations for. You say you are working on self-care and not looking for a lover right now, but the vast majority of people who go on dates are looking for a romantic and sexual connection. Not necessarily on the first, third, or twentieth date, but the general assumption is that's where hanging out and getting to know one another is potentially leading to.
If what you're seeking right now is just a platonic friend to go out with and do stuff with and enjoy various activities with, that's great. Just make sure you're setting those clear expectations from the get go.
posted by brookeb at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
That said, I can't help wondering what exactly you are looking for and setting expectations for. You say you are working on self-care and not looking for a lover right now, but the vast majority of people who go on dates are looking for a romantic and sexual connection. Not necessarily on the first, third, or twentieth date, but the general assumption is that's where hanging out and getting to know one another is potentially leading to.
If what you're seeking right now is just a platonic friend to go out with and do stuff with and enjoy various activities with, that's great. Just make sure you're setting those clear expectations from the get go.
posted by brookeb at 4:23 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Boy, if 95% of him appears to be swell, there must be a lot of layers there, because this is enough red flags for . . . some activity that requires a whole lot of red flags.
A man who can't even manage to pretend to respect a woman's boundaries regarding sex is not worth getting to know better. Run.
posted by mister pointy at 4:28 PM on October 11, 2016
A man who can't even manage to pretend to respect a woman's boundaries regarding sex is not worth getting to know better. Run.
posted by mister pointy at 4:28 PM on October 11, 2016
Response by poster: To clarify: I made it clear before we met that I wasn't looking for a lover and it wasn't supposed to be a date. Then as we were saying goodbye, I kissed him impulsively and yes, that's on me.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:30 PM on October 11, 2016
posted by Bella Donna at 4:30 PM on October 11, 2016
I have dated this kind of person before, and he absolutely turned out to be a jerk.
Oh, and the guy after him with similar red flags turned out to be a jerk too.
posted by danceswithlight at 4:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, and the guy after him with similar red flags turned out to be a jerk too.
posted by danceswithlight at 4:32 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nope right on out of there.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:34 PM on October 11, 2016
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 4:34 PM on October 11, 2016
Total red flags.
He's already shown that he doesn't respect your stated wishes or your physical space.. Which means that you are going to spend all of your interactions with him reinforcing your boundaries over and over again. And he's going to spend his time trying to tire you out so that he can fuck you. That sounds exhausting and unpleasant to me.
Block him and never think about him again.
posted by mcduff at 4:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
He's already shown that he doesn't respect your stated wishes or your physical space.. Which means that you are going to spend all of your interactions with him reinforcing your boundaries over and over again. And he's going to spend his time trying to tire you out so that he can fuck you. That sounds exhausting and unpleasant to me.
Block him and never think about him again.
posted by mcduff at 4:36 PM on October 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Kiss or no kiss, this guy sounds like a self-centered oaf. "He wants, so he must have" is the vibe I'm getting here too, with a good dose of boring old-fashioned male dominance. Nope. Nope nope nope.
I believe I know that "I want you" too. It's a thing you hear from Intense Jerk Boner Guy, who is a close cousin to Sad Boner Guy. Slightly throaty, right, and with the deep, direct stare that says that he is a serious man with serious desires that you too should be serious about? Yeah, no, that does not promise a good time.
If you were in a relationship, and he was no longer trying to impress you, what do you think would happen next time you and he had non-matching wants? Oh, so much noping to be done here. Alas that you cannot nope him right into the sun.
posted by phantom powered at 4:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I believe I know that "I want you" too. It's a thing you hear from Intense Jerk Boner Guy, who is a close cousin to Sad Boner Guy. Slightly throaty, right, and with the deep, direct stare that says that he is a serious man with serious desires that you too should be serious about? Yeah, no, that does not promise a good time.
If you were in a relationship, and he was no longer trying to impress you, what do you think would happen next time you and he had non-matching wants? Oh, so much noping to be done here. Alas that you cannot nope him right into the sun.
posted by phantom powered at 4:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
"10-day silent Buddhist meditation retreat tomorrow" + "impasse" = I would like to have sex before I go on my 10-day silent Buddhist meditation retreat and I feel that this is not going to happen for me.
"he no kidding texts me that I am missing out on improving my wellbeing by having lots and lots of orgasms with his help."
Keep in mind that a lot cult leaders throw that line around a fair bit.
posted by heyjude at 4:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
"he no kidding texts me that I am missing out on improving my wellbeing by having lots and lots of orgasms with his help."
Keep in mind that a lot cult leaders throw that line around a fair bit.
posted by heyjude at 4:44 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Sorry, last clarification: I know it sounds like I never liked the guy. In fact the entire time we were together I had a great time. Neither of us knew we were both in 12 step programs. There was plenty of fun banter and serious conversation. And then I woke up this morning, started remembering things, and thought, wait a minute, Is this guy a jerk? That's why I posted. Because it was so confusing that I enjoyed the time I had with him and then woke up two days later wondering if I was a crazy person.
posted by Bella Donna at 4:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 4:47 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You don't have to decide he's a bad person to realize you don't want to date him. It definitely sounds like you don't want to date him. Please don't date him!
posted by grouse at 4:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by grouse at 4:57 PM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
I have never experienced a boundary pusher who stopped being a boundary pusher. Get out before he starts being even creepier.
posted by ktkt at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by ktkt at 5:54 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: The thing about the bag one the bike: more of a yellow flag -- important and needs to be addressed. It's something to watch out for in case you see a pattern. If any friend does this sort of thing, you can set them straight at the time it's happening: "thanks, but I've got it." Or, "I like my way." If there's any pushback or if it happens again, say something like, "Can you do me a favor...help me if I ask for help." You phrase it as asking a favor, but of course it's not optional, and you don't need a question mark in your voice.
Al-Anon, AA -- This is important to you, and is something you can decide on a case-by-case basis. It's okay if it's a deal-breaker for you, and it's okay if it's not.
It sounds like you're sure you don't want a sexual relationship and he's sure he does. That's why he used the word 'impasse.' It's not negotiable for either of you. If it were something you were willing to consider, you wouldn't have to worry about being fair or giving someone a chance. Don't expect him to keep spending time with you just because you have fun talking to him.
Waking up and feeling like something might be a mistake...this is a big red flag, even if you can't put your finger on why. Even if your reasons don't seem "good enough."
posted by wryly at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Al-Anon, AA -- This is important to you, and is something you can decide on a case-by-case basis. It's okay if it's a deal-breaker for you, and it's okay if it's not.
It sounds like you're sure you don't want a sexual relationship and he's sure he does. That's why he used the word 'impasse.' It's not negotiable for either of you. If it were something you were willing to consider, you wouldn't have to worry about being fair or giving someone a chance. Don't expect him to keep spending time with you just because you have fun talking to him.
Waking up and feeling like something might be a mistake...this is a big red flag, even if you can't put your finger on why. Even if your reasons don't seem "good enough."
posted by wryly at 6:08 PM on October 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
So maybe you've given mixed signals (a kiss doesn't automatically mean sex!). His response to the mixed signal should have been to back off, letting you take the lead. Mixed signals usually mean someone is figuring stuff out. His response, to push your boundaries, means that you figuring stuff out isn't as important as what he wants.
Taken individually and alone I think you could give someone the benefit of the doubt on some of the stuff, the bike thing could be someone trying to be helpful (but is clueless), the correcting you about steps again clueless (did he take correction well?). But the boundary pushing makes it seem like it's not worth dealing with (to me personally, I'm not a patient person).
I've occasionally seen a person who is unknowingly clueless given a come to Jesus moment and turn it around, but this was back in college. And it required a blunt conversation (sometimes many).
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Taken individually and alone I think you could give someone the benefit of the doubt on some of the stuff, the bike thing could be someone trying to be helpful (but is clueless), the correcting you about steps again clueless (did he take correction well?). But the boundary pushing makes it seem like it's not worth dealing with (to me personally, I'm not a patient person).
I've occasionally seen a person who is unknowingly clueless given a come to Jesus moment and turn it around, but this was back in college. And it required a blunt conversation (sometimes many).
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:26 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
IMHO I think you were being/feeling bullied. But you didn't recognize it in the moment, and that's where the confusion arises.
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2016
posted by alwayson_slightlyoff at 7:29 PM on October 11, 2016
get away and keep away from any dude who ignores your boundaries this much this early.
posted by zdravo at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zdravo at 7:42 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: I'm in the camp of seeing most of these things as not red flags, especially your interpretation of his saying he wants you, especially given the kiss, but absolutely none of that matters. These things bother you, and that's enough. Could they be addressed and fixed? Maybe, but you don't want a sexual relationship right now, and he clearly does. The kiss is probably why he's been flirty, but he should respect what you reiterated after the fact and back off. He doesn't need to be a villian and you don't need to be overly judgmental or too sensitive to decide to walk away and stop this progressing further. This isn't what you are looking for right now, and that's 100% okay. Wish him well and focus as much as possible on things that give you joy and peace instead of stress, pressure, or self doubt. Good luck!
posted by katemcd at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by katemcd at 8:03 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I share missmagenta and katemcd's read. It sounds like you two want something different. He might be a boundary pusher, or he might just be very "Ask".on the Guess-Ask spectrum. When I read your question, I mainly get an impression of him as someone who wants a sexual and emotional connection and is very clear and direct about communicating that.
You say you don't want a relationship, but you're kissing him spontaneously, writing about your attraction to him, and saying flirty things that keep the door open. For instance, he said, essentially, "okay, I hear you saying you don't want a sexual relationship, and I do, so we're at an impasse" -- presumably an impasse after which he moves on to someone who is ready for an emotionally and sexually intimate relationship. Rather than say, "yep, it's unfortunate, but I need to focus on myself now," you say "I don't think we're at an impasse. I think we are getting to know one another and that takes time," leaving the door open that who knows what might happen over time.
You want to blame him as the boundary pusher, but it sounds like the issue here is that your own feelings and desires are not clear. The way boundaries work is that you tell someone what they are, and then when they do the thing you said you didn't want (e.g., make a flirty comment), you do the thing you warned them you'd do (e.g., end the phone call). It sounds like the reverse is actually happening -- he tried to clarify and respect, even solidify, your position, but you softened or shifted it.
I don't share a lot of your assumptions. Example:
He ...has made it clear that he'd be super happy to jump me right this second if I let him
Clear communication on what he wants, that's good.
--which ain't gonna happen any time soon.
Hmm, hostility and derision, that's bad.
I think he used that word [impasse] because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute, and he wants to be my lover right this minute, which equals impasse.
Right! What's debatable about that? You keep saying "right this minute / second," so it seems like maybe you look down on his sex-readiness and think he should be willing to move slowly? But some people don't feel like it's necessary to get to know someone ever time before having sex. You should acknowledge his sex-readiness and positivity as a part of him and what he's looking for (not-not-not that you should feel pressured to have sex with him, but -- just as he should grasp that you don't want to have sex now -- you should grasp that this is what he's looking for).
So you tell him it's not an impasse, that who knows what could happen after you get to know each other. He figures, okay, she knows I want to have sex and said it's not an impasse, so let me see if she likes sexy talk about how she's missing out on orgasms. Sure, I think it would be better for him to back way off and let you have your space until you say you want him, and maybe I'm missing something critical in what you wrote, but I'm not getting the villain vibe personally.
But, that doesn't matter. I.don't think you should feel like you need to "be fair." If you don't like the guy and/or really don't want something sexual with him and/or aren't ready for a relationship, just be clear about that. Agree you are at impasse and move on. Or, ask him if he'd be willing to date in a romantic way without having sex anytime soon, if that's what you want. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 8:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
You say you don't want a relationship, but you're kissing him spontaneously, writing about your attraction to him, and saying flirty things that keep the door open. For instance, he said, essentially, "okay, I hear you saying you don't want a sexual relationship, and I do, so we're at an impasse" -- presumably an impasse after which he moves on to someone who is ready for an emotionally and sexually intimate relationship. Rather than say, "yep, it's unfortunate, but I need to focus on myself now," you say "I don't think we're at an impasse. I think we are getting to know one another and that takes time," leaving the door open that who knows what might happen over time.
You want to blame him as the boundary pusher, but it sounds like the issue here is that your own feelings and desires are not clear. The way boundaries work is that you tell someone what they are, and then when they do the thing you said you didn't want (e.g., make a flirty comment), you do the thing you warned them you'd do (e.g., end the phone call). It sounds like the reverse is actually happening -- he tried to clarify and respect, even solidify, your position, but you softened or shifted it.
I don't share a lot of your assumptions. Example:
He ...has made it clear that he'd be super happy to jump me right this second if I let him
Clear communication on what he wants, that's good.
--which ain't gonna happen any time soon.
Hmm, hostility and derision, that's bad.
I think he used that word [impasse] because he doesn't understand why I don't want a lover right this minute, and he wants to be my lover right this minute, which equals impasse.
Right! What's debatable about that? You keep saying "right this minute / second," so it seems like maybe you look down on his sex-readiness and think he should be willing to move slowly? But some people don't feel like it's necessary to get to know someone ever time before having sex. You should acknowledge his sex-readiness and positivity as a part of him and what he's looking for (not-not-not that you should feel pressured to have sex with him, but -- just as he should grasp that you don't want to have sex now -- you should grasp that this is what he's looking for).
So you tell him it's not an impasse, that who knows what could happen after you get to know each other. He figures, okay, she knows I want to have sex and said it's not an impasse, so let me see if she likes sexy talk about how she's missing out on orgasms. Sure, I think it would be better for him to back way off and let you have your space until you say you want him, and maybe I'm missing something critical in what you wrote, but I'm not getting the villain vibe personally.
But, that doesn't matter. I.don't think you should feel like you need to "be fair." If you don't like the guy and/or really don't want something sexual with him and/or aren't ready for a relationship, just be clear about that. Agree you are at impasse and move on. Or, ask him if he'd be willing to date in a romantic way without having sex anytime soon, if that's what you want. Good luck!
posted by salvia at 8:50 PM on October 11, 2016 [11 favorites]
Let us be fair to the man. He's told you he was attracted to you and ready to try something with you. That you have all these reservations is not about him being a jerk. It's about you not being ready for an affair or a relationship. Not with him. Painting him as the villain sounds like rationalisation. And this, after you've kissed.
Dont waste his time any longer. As they say in the movies, "leave him be". For your own sake, and his, please move on.
Well, salvia just said it much better than I ever could.
posted by Kwadeng at 12:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dont waste his time any longer. As they say in the movies, "leave him be". For your own sake, and his, please move on.
Well, salvia just said it much better than I ever could.
posted by Kwadeng at 12:39 AM on October 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do want to add that it's impossible for us to truly know. What makes the difference between saying "I want you" in a sexy vs. menacing way are a million contextual details and nuance that is hard to convey in writing. So -- while I just wrote a long comment where I try to give him the benefit of the doubt, you are the expert here. I don't mean to undermine your instincts or.to imply in any way that you should do something you don't want to do or have to fend off repeated unwanted advances.
posted by salvia at 1:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 1:15 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ugh these "impasse" and "I want you" comments make it sound like he doesn't really respect you and just wants you as some kind of thing to conquer. You told him what you wanted and he ignored it and continued to re-frame the situation in terms of what he wants, which you have already told him is not what you want. He does not view relationships the same way you do. Also, this guy sounds like my ex who I wish I had flagged and moved on from the start rather than wasting 4 years to give him a fair chance.
posted by Polychrome at 3:14 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Polychrome at 3:14 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
You just don't sound very into him, which is fine, and is a good signal not to start a relationship. Keep looking and you will find someone with less drama and more compatibility.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 AM on October 12, 2016
posted by Dip Flash at 5:42 AM on October 12, 2016
If you don't want to date him, don't date him! You don't need to evaluate whether or not he deserves it.
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ragged Richard at 7:29 AM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the great responses, folks. I can't favourite them all but every single one was helpful. It's a bit embarrassing that I wanted MF approval for not dating this guy but I'm glad I posted. As stated upthread, he's absolutely not a villain or a bad guy and he doesn't have to be a bad guy to be wrong for me at this moment. Thanks for helping nudge me past my black-and-white, judgmental thinking. Much appreciated!
posted by Bella Donna at 9:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 9:36 AM on October 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
he doesn't have to be a bad guy to be wrong for me at this moment.
This to the Nth degree.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:36 PM on October 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
This to the Nth degree.
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:36 PM on October 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
(just repeating the great response you've gotten, because I so want you to hear this:) You aren't looking for a lover and you were impulsively kissing and inviting a guy you are interested in to meet up and you were having nice banter with him, and all that combined is ok! It does certainly not mean that now you have to be fair to the universe and sleep with him or decide on him as a lover. You are so allowed to wake up and feel differently, feel differently in any way you please! You can decide you don't want to date or sleep with any alcoholic. It is your life. Your intuitions, feelings (about how someone takes over your bag etc), your progressing everchanging insights, your prerogative to change your mind! It's great! We all have that (I found that out so late and am still enjoying the novelty of it), and so do you. Congrats, your life: it's all yours!
posted by Litehouse at 4:33 PM on February 5, 2017
posted by Litehouse at 4:33 PM on February 5, 2017
Oh and don't feel ashamed of talking to people to get support for something of yourself that you want to become stronger. All humans need that.
posted by Litehouse at 4:37 PM on February 5, 2017
posted by Litehouse at 4:37 PM on February 5, 2017
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posted by destructive cactus at 3:15 PM on October 11, 2016 [3 favorites]