Audio 101 filter
October 10, 2016 7:02 PM Subscribe
We've just demolished our kitchen/dining room and now decided that in-ceiling speakers for music, and a tv would be a good thing. Short on time, and audio isn't my thing, help!
We removed a wall, so our separate kitchen and dining room are now one big 14'x22' area. However, with a new to-be-installed peninsula, there's a definite dining area and a kitchen area. The areas are each approximately 14'x11' in size. While cooking we like to blast music, or have reruns playing on the TV. While in the dining room music would be playing at a lower volume, but it ideally blocks chewing sounds. 2 channel stereo is sufficient, surround sound need not apply.
Neither my wife nor I have golden ears, however we both agree that (cheap) TV speakers sound crappy, and have been satisfied with $40 liquidated sound bars. We're budget aware, but we'd like to put something up and never have to touch it again for 50+ years. Admittedly once cables are in place, changing parts out shouldn't be too bad. Slight difficulty factor, we're in Canada.
In-wall or in-ceiling speakers are all that we're considering. We have access to the attic above. Because of some tall cabinetry and room placement, we'd need a serious sell on in-wall speakers over in-ceiling.
Knowing nothing, we thought two in-ceiling speakers in the ceiling in the dining area, and two in the kitchen area off of the same control seemed reasonable. We'd like a chromecast audio for music, and a to-be purchased tv (likely just a display for a chromecast or a roku) as the only input devices for the sound system. The TV would be wall mounted. If components cannot be hidden/mounted behind the TV, then we'd run cables up the ceiling about 6 feet horizontally over to where an upper cabinet will be installed. Would we need to worry about heat for anything in the cabinet? Hiding components behind the TV is a big plus.
Active or passive speakers? We're not sold on either, I don't know why but I started looking at passive speakers.
If we do passive, since the tv and chromecast audio output at line-out, could we just have a simple audio switch connected via rca splitters to a simple 4 channel amp which then connects to 2x pairs of passive speakers like these ? And would that sound reasonable? Would 4x 200watt rms speakers be reasonably loud for blasting music while cooking in a 300 sq foot room?
Parts above were all chosen from first glance, is anything missing? I really like the fact that the audio switch and the amp could be hidden behind the tv. Is there an easier/cleaner way to take two simple inputs and convert them to 4 speakers? Would I be better off doing two larger speakers, one in each area instead of two pairs?
How would I best take the two inputs and connect them to 4 in-ceiling active speakers? Just an RCA splitter and cables to the powered ceiling speakers? I'm already installing additional lighting with our reno, so getting power/junction boxes to the speakers isn't a deal breaker if it gets me a simpler, no maintenance system that sounds reasonable.
Is there something better than the A/V splitters that's not break the bank crazy? Ideally something that doesn't need a button/switch to choose the source.
We removed a wall, so our separate kitchen and dining room are now one big 14'x22' area. However, with a new to-be-installed peninsula, there's a definite dining area and a kitchen area. The areas are each approximately 14'x11' in size. While cooking we like to blast music, or have reruns playing on the TV. While in the dining room music would be playing at a lower volume, but it ideally blocks chewing sounds. 2 channel stereo is sufficient, surround sound need not apply.
Neither my wife nor I have golden ears, however we both agree that (cheap) TV speakers sound crappy, and have been satisfied with $40 liquidated sound bars. We're budget aware, but we'd like to put something up and never have to touch it again for 50+ years. Admittedly once cables are in place, changing parts out shouldn't be too bad. Slight difficulty factor, we're in Canada.
In-wall or in-ceiling speakers are all that we're considering. We have access to the attic above. Because of some tall cabinetry and room placement, we'd need a serious sell on in-wall speakers over in-ceiling.
Knowing nothing, we thought two in-ceiling speakers in the ceiling in the dining area, and two in the kitchen area off of the same control seemed reasonable. We'd like a chromecast audio for music, and a to-be purchased tv (likely just a display for a chromecast or a roku) as the only input devices for the sound system. The TV would be wall mounted. If components cannot be hidden/mounted behind the TV, then we'd run cables up the ceiling about 6 feet horizontally over to where an upper cabinet will be installed. Would we need to worry about heat for anything in the cabinet? Hiding components behind the TV is a big plus.
Active or passive speakers? We're not sold on either, I don't know why but I started looking at passive speakers.
If we do passive, since the tv and chromecast audio output at line-out, could we just have a simple audio switch connected via rca splitters to a simple 4 channel amp which then connects to 2x pairs of passive speakers like these ? And would that sound reasonable? Would 4x 200watt rms speakers be reasonably loud for blasting music while cooking in a 300 sq foot room?
Parts above were all chosen from first glance, is anything missing? I really like the fact that the audio switch and the amp could be hidden behind the tv. Is there an easier/cleaner way to take two simple inputs and convert them to 4 speakers? Would I be better off doing two larger speakers, one in each area instead of two pairs?
How would I best take the two inputs and connect them to 4 in-ceiling active speakers? Just an RCA splitter and cables to the powered ceiling speakers? I'm already installing additional lighting with our reno, so getting power/junction boxes to the speakers isn't a deal breaker if it gets me a simpler, no maintenance system that sounds reasonable.
Is there something better than the A/V splitters that's not break the bank crazy? Ideally something that doesn't need a button/switch to choose the source.
You might be interested in Wirecutter's review of multi-room music systems where they firmly recommend those made by Sonos. Sonos systems are quite pricey and are not without shortcomings - but they will last a while, they sound good, they are relatively easy to set up and they sound (and look) good.
There are a number of different configuration routes - but you could have, for example a Connect Amp feeding a couple of ceiling mounted speakers and taking an input from a bluetooth receiver (in addition to its LAN connection to your router). Then add a playbar to go with the TV. Sound to the whole system can come from the TV, any computer on your network (including a NAS) or anything you choose to pair with the bluetooth receiver (a phone or PC for example). The system can be readily extended to add other rooms using in-ceiling or stand-alone speakers. Everything gets controlled from an iphone/android/PC app and you can have many of these running together.
posted by rongorongo at 7:00 AM on October 11, 2016
There are a number of different configuration routes - but you could have, for example a Connect Amp feeding a couple of ceiling mounted speakers and taking an input from a bluetooth receiver (in addition to its LAN connection to your router). Then add a playbar to go with the TV. Sound to the whole system can come from the TV, any computer on your network (including a NAS) or anything you choose to pair with the bluetooth receiver (a phone or PC for example). The system can be readily extended to add other rooms using in-ceiling or stand-alone speakers. Everything gets controlled from an iphone/android/PC app and you can have many of these running together.
posted by rongorongo at 7:00 AM on October 11, 2016
Best answer: In general your passive speaker plan sounds fine.
Couple of things to consider: unbalanced line-level cables like RCA cables shouldn't really be longer than 6 to 10 feet, (especially if they're parallel to electric lines), while speaker cables from the amp can be quite a bit longer. So I'd plan on having the amp closer to the TV.
The other thing is that it's very possible that the acoustics of the room and the placement of the speakers might cause some phase and/or reverberation weirdness where the sound from one area interferes with the sound in the other area. So I'd look for an amp with more accessible volume controls, so you can turn down the "kitchen speakers" when you're watching something in the living room.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Couple of things to consider: unbalanced line-level cables like RCA cables shouldn't really be longer than 6 to 10 feet, (especially if they're parallel to electric lines), while speaker cables from the amp can be quite a bit longer. So I'd plan on having the amp closer to the TV.
The other thing is that it's very possible that the acoustics of the room and the placement of the speakers might cause some phase and/or reverberation weirdness where the sound from one area interferes with the sound in the other area. So I'd look for an amp with more accessible volume controls, so you can turn down the "kitchen speakers" when you're watching something in the living room.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
So I'll describe my setup first and then I'll give some ideas for what you could do. My own setup is similar to what you describe wanting.
Kitchen: 2 passive in-ceiling speakers. Audioengine N22 amp. Chromecast audio. All stored on a shelf in the kitchen next to a panel which has an outlet and the posts for the speakers. So the kitchen is self-contained.
Family room (next to kitchen): no TV. 2 Audioengine A2 active speakers. Chromecast audio.
These two are in a Chromecast audio group so I can use them separately or cast to them as a group. Chromecast audio keeps multi-room audio in sync automatically and it's pretty amazing.
TV Room (downstairs, far away): TV. Basic soundbar. Chromecast. UVerse box, Bluray player, WiiU, etc. Again, self-contained.
So my strategy has been to keep rooms isolated in terms of interconnection and rely on Chromecast multiroom to do what I need. I have a TP-LINK OnHub upstairs for wifi and I use the UVerse gateway downstairs on separate wifi networks although they're connected. Eventually I'm going to get an eero or Google Wifi to have a single wifi network throughout the house.
So my suggestions for you:
1 - build separate rooms with more basic components. Passive speakers and a small amp in the kitchen with Chromecast. Passive speakers with a small amp in the dining room with Chromecast. A TV and a decent soundbar with a Chromecast in the TV area. You'll need good wifi coverage though.
2 - run everything to a much larger panel below where the TV will be - I assume there will be some sort of TV furniture thing where you'll have the amp, etc. So passive in-ceiling speakers in the kitchen and dining room and run the wiring to the amp next to the TV.
Do you have two zones here or three? I'm not sure if the TV is going in the dining room area or not. Regardless you can get a three-zone amp that can support driving separate speakers in the kitchen, dining room & TV area. Then run all your inputs into the amp and it does all the magic of deciding what goes where. This only requires decent wifi around where the Cast devices are next to your amp. You can even get ethernet adapters for Chromecast if the wifi isn't great where the amp is. This setup is a little more future-proof in terms of input devices but relies on having a big expensive amp do all the hard work.
Per other commenters don't plan long runs of line-level signals. That passive audio switch has its place in the world but not as the center of a home entertainment system.
Finally Sonos is fine but it's expensive relative to the functionality. Once upon a time it was the best choice but I don't think that's the case any longer. Chromecast Audio can do the same thing for a lot less. Also I spent a lot of time looking for active in-ceiling/in-wall speakers and they don't seem to exist in case you're wondering why I didn't suggest that.
posted by GuyZero at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2016
Kitchen: 2 passive in-ceiling speakers. Audioengine N22 amp. Chromecast audio. All stored on a shelf in the kitchen next to a panel which has an outlet and the posts for the speakers. So the kitchen is self-contained.
Family room (next to kitchen): no TV. 2 Audioengine A2 active speakers. Chromecast audio.
These two are in a Chromecast audio group so I can use them separately or cast to them as a group. Chromecast audio keeps multi-room audio in sync automatically and it's pretty amazing.
TV Room (downstairs, far away): TV. Basic soundbar. Chromecast. UVerse box, Bluray player, WiiU, etc. Again, self-contained.
So my strategy has been to keep rooms isolated in terms of interconnection and rely on Chromecast multiroom to do what I need. I have a TP-LINK OnHub upstairs for wifi and I use the UVerse gateway downstairs on separate wifi networks although they're connected. Eventually I'm going to get an eero or Google Wifi to have a single wifi network throughout the house.
So my suggestions for you:
1 - build separate rooms with more basic components. Passive speakers and a small amp in the kitchen with Chromecast. Passive speakers with a small amp in the dining room with Chromecast. A TV and a decent soundbar with a Chromecast in the TV area. You'll need good wifi coverage though.
2 - run everything to a much larger panel below where the TV will be - I assume there will be some sort of TV furniture thing where you'll have the amp, etc. So passive in-ceiling speakers in the kitchen and dining room and run the wiring to the amp next to the TV.
Do you have two zones here or three? I'm not sure if the TV is going in the dining room area or not. Regardless you can get a three-zone amp that can support driving separate speakers in the kitchen, dining room & TV area. Then run all your inputs into the amp and it does all the magic of deciding what goes where. This only requires decent wifi around where the Cast devices are next to your amp. You can even get ethernet adapters for Chromecast if the wifi isn't great where the amp is. This setup is a little more future-proof in terms of input devices but relies on having a big expensive amp do all the hard work.
Per other commenters don't plan long runs of line-level signals. That passive audio switch has its place in the world but not as the center of a home entertainment system.
Finally Sonos is fine but it's expensive relative to the functionality. Once upon a time it was the best choice but I don't think that's the case any longer. Chromecast Audio can do the same thing for a lot less. Also I spent a lot of time looking for active in-ceiling/in-wall speakers and they don't seem to exist in case you're wondering why I didn't suggest that.
posted by GuyZero at 10:00 AM on October 11, 2016
Response by poster: Clarifications: We're not planning any sort of furniture for the TV. We have an L of cabinets and counter tops along two walls of the kitchen area, and a peninsula (separating the kitchen/dining room zones) opposite the longest wall of cabinets. With all of that cabinet space, we've decided to go with no upper cabinets for a more open look. The TV will be mounted to the wall opposite the peninsula (the tv itself will not be in-wall) near an outlet we are installing which will be behind the TV - 2-4 feet above the countertops. The plan is also for this outlet to have connections for the passive speakers in the ceiling. Ideally any/all audio equipment can be mounted to the wall behind the TV, or perhaps secured to the TV itself. This would also allow them to be at least semi-easily accessed for volume controls if needed.
Initially we imagine that 80% of the time the chromecast audio would be in use vs. 20% of the time for the TV to be in use.
This will just be a smaller TV somewhere between 21-32 inches at most. The TV will only be used while cooking. We have a separate family room with the typical larger TV, but that's fully separate and we're not touching that anytime soon (when we go forward likely there will be another chromecast audio, or any speakers/sound bar will be cast enabled).
Because there are no walls (albeit the peninsula would be a 1/6 - 1/8 of a wall as far as getting in the way of sound waves) between the kitchen area and dining area, this seems more like 1 or 1.5 zones, which is why I thought 1 control for the 4 speakers. However, if we got 2x 2channel amps, we could try connecting the chromecast audio to the dining room speakers, and the TV to the kitchen speakers.
It would be easy enough after the fact to then throw in the splitters/switch if we find that we really want 4 speakers for music (perhaps only having the kitchen speakers on the switch (which would also the dining room speakers to always be ready to cast music, even if someone forgot to adjust the switch when turning off the tv)). Additionally 2x 2 channel amps would allow the master volume to be changed should the speaker pairs need different volume levels.
I'm aware to limit speaker cable to less than 5 feet running parallel to power wires, ideally 1 foot away at all times, and to cross them perpendicularly whenever possibly. I was not aware of 5-10 feet or less for line-level audio, but it looks like 3 foot or less cables should be easy to work with as we want everything behind the TV, and small amps vs. a giant receiver certainly looks like that'll aid this. Certainly the line-level cable length limit seems to eliminate active speakers (probably this is part of way active in-ceiling speakers have so few options).
We have a detached home and live on a loud busy street with a bus stop. Our neighbors will not be disturbed by this. I'm glad to hear that a simple passive setup doesn't involve as many components as I first feared (pre-amp, mixer/receiver, separate amp, then spekers).
posted by nobeagle at 11:37 AM on October 11, 2016
Initially we imagine that 80% of the time the chromecast audio would be in use vs. 20% of the time for the TV to be in use.
This will just be a smaller TV somewhere between 21-32 inches at most. The TV will only be used while cooking. We have a separate family room with the typical larger TV, but that's fully separate and we're not touching that anytime soon (when we go forward likely there will be another chromecast audio, or any speakers/sound bar will be cast enabled).
Because there are no walls (albeit the peninsula would be a 1/6 - 1/8 of a wall as far as getting in the way of sound waves) between the kitchen area and dining area, this seems more like 1 or 1.5 zones, which is why I thought 1 control for the 4 speakers. However, if we got 2x 2channel amps, we could try connecting the chromecast audio to the dining room speakers, and the TV to the kitchen speakers.
It would be easy enough after the fact to then throw in the splitters/switch if we find that we really want 4 speakers for music (perhaps only having the kitchen speakers on the switch (which would also the dining room speakers to always be ready to cast music, even if someone forgot to adjust the switch when turning off the tv)). Additionally 2x 2 channel amps would allow the master volume to be changed should the speaker pairs need different volume levels.
I'm aware to limit speaker cable to less than 5 feet running parallel to power wires, ideally 1 foot away at all times, and to cross them perpendicularly whenever possibly. I was not aware of 5-10 feet or less for line-level audio, but it looks like 3 foot or less cables should be easy to work with as we want everything behind the TV, and small amps vs. a giant receiver certainly looks like that'll aid this. Certainly the line-level cable length limit seems to eliminate active speakers (probably this is part of way active in-ceiling speakers have so few options).
We have a detached home and live on a loud busy street with a bus stop. Our neighbors will not be disturbed by this. I'm glad to hear that a simple passive setup doesn't involve as many components as I first feared (pre-amp, mixer/receiver, separate amp, then spekers).
posted by nobeagle at 11:37 AM on October 11, 2016
I'm glad to hear that a simple passive setup doesn't involve as many components as I first feared (pre-amp, mixer/receiver, separate amp, then spekers).
Oh yeah, not at all. Either one small amp per set of passive speakers or one bigger amp to drive them all.
Ideally any/all audio equipment can be mounted to the wall behind the TV, or perhaps secured to the TV itself.
I don't know of any good ways to do this and I think it would be difficult. I'd suggest sticking the amp in a cabinet and running the cables through the wall up to the attic - the attic is directly above, yes?
You can also get soundbars with Google Cast support built-in (like this Vizio) that you can wall-mount which may be a good way to solve that whole room - just mount the soundbar below the TV and plug it in and you'll have both Chromecast support as well as being able to use it for the TV. I think the Vizio devices should support multi-room casting soon. That gets around the issue of amps, etc by the TV. So maybe go with having separate isolated areas all with Chromecast and just use the cast multi-room feature to coordinate the times you want music everywhere
posted by GuyZero at 11:46 AM on October 11, 2016
Oh yeah, not at all. Either one small amp per set of passive speakers or one bigger amp to drive them all.
Ideally any/all audio equipment can be mounted to the wall behind the TV, or perhaps secured to the TV itself.
I don't know of any good ways to do this and I think it would be difficult. I'd suggest sticking the amp in a cabinet and running the cables through the wall up to the attic - the attic is directly above, yes?
You can also get soundbars with Google Cast support built-in (like this Vizio) that you can wall-mount which may be a good way to solve that whole room - just mount the soundbar below the TV and plug it in and you'll have both Chromecast support as well as being able to use it for the TV. I think the Vizio devices should support multi-room casting soon. That gets around the issue of amps, etc by the TV. So maybe go with having separate isolated areas all with Chromecast and just use the cast multi-room feature to coordinate the times you want music everywhere
posted by GuyZero at 11:46 AM on October 11, 2016
I was not aware of 5-10 feet or less for line-level audio
It's more about "balanced vs. unbalanced" signal runs, and while line level is hotter than mic level, making it less likely you will hear noise or interference, it's still general good practice to keep unbalanced lines - like RCA audio cables - as short as possible and let the high-powered amp-to-speaker signal run the longer distances.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2016
It's more about "balanced vs. unbalanced" signal runs, and while line level is hotter than mic level, making it less likely you will hear noise or interference, it's still general good practice to keep unbalanced lines - like RCA audio cables - as short as possible and let the high-powered amp-to-speaker signal run the longer distances.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:29 PM on October 11, 2016
Response by poster: We ended up going with a Lepy 269FS amp and Pyle PWRC51 speakers - the speakers would definitely be able to handle a stronger amp, but I hoped the small foot print of the Lepy would be sufficient for our needs.
The speakers are passive, and we got a wall outlet sized box that supports 8 RCA style ports. From there, that runs up through the ceiling, and did a a reasonable (within a meter or two) job of matching the distances so there's extra slack for the closer speakers, but the same length for all wires. Power for TV/amp/devices is via a standard wall port I installed which is also hidden behind the TV. It's on the next joist over from the speakers to limit parallel AC / DC runs. The lepy is mounted to the wall.
The Chromecast audio is plugged into the microphone port of the Lepy, and the TV (driven by Chromecast) connects to the RCA inputs. Both function via "Aux" on the Lepy. We never touch the controls/remote of the Lepy; it's always on Aux and recovers nicely after power failures to the house (unlike our other TV's sound bars which don't remember the input previously used). If both devices are on, with only one active, the sound volume is about 1/4 - 1/3 of what is desired. Rather than using an active audio switch (which in the past I've found degrade in quality after a few years), I chose a setup so only one chromecast device is powered on at a time.
The video chromecast is powered by the usb port of the TV which isn't powered when the tv is switched off. The audio chromecast is powered via a usb charger that is powered via an extension cord which has a physical switch, which is located just behind the tv near the bottom right corner where the power button on the TV is. The cord obscured from view, but easily reached. When one turns on/off the TV, one then also turns off/on the chromecast audio. I don't think my wife has messed this up yet, and I've only failed to turn the chromecast audio back on once so far in about 4 months of using this.
The volume knob on the Lepy is around ~80% of max volume. The default power supply isn't enough to max out the amp, but we've found it sufficient for us. Fanless more powerful power supplies are available on Amazon for ~$20-$30. Fortunately the chromecast audio remember's the volume position through power cycles; we usually keep it around 5-15% , while the chromecast Video usually needs to play around 80-90% . It's really annoying that chromecast video *still* doesn't remember the volume position over reboots. The audio on the Lepy is at 80% because at that level, most stuff we want to play at the TV is a good (loud) volume at 90% volume for the chromecast. We have the extra 10% for some audio that's a bit quieter. So far we haven't felt the need to turn up the master volume of the lepy any; it's behind the TV, but at the lower left corner to access to the controls is easy for the taller of us.
Both Ms. nobeagle and I are happy with the volume levels, and I was able to hide everything behind the TV so there's no visible cables with this setup.
posted by nobeagle at 10:02 AM on October 2, 2017
The speakers are passive, and we got a wall outlet sized box that supports 8 RCA style ports. From there, that runs up through the ceiling, and did a a reasonable (within a meter or two) job of matching the distances so there's extra slack for the closer speakers, but the same length for all wires. Power for TV/amp/devices is via a standard wall port I installed which is also hidden behind the TV. It's on the next joist over from the speakers to limit parallel AC / DC runs. The lepy is mounted to the wall.
The Chromecast audio is plugged into the microphone port of the Lepy, and the TV (driven by Chromecast) connects to the RCA inputs. Both function via "Aux" on the Lepy. We never touch the controls/remote of the Lepy; it's always on Aux and recovers nicely after power failures to the house (unlike our other TV's sound bars which don't remember the input previously used). If both devices are on, with only one active, the sound volume is about 1/4 - 1/3 of what is desired. Rather than using an active audio switch (which in the past I've found degrade in quality after a few years), I chose a setup so only one chromecast device is powered on at a time.
The video chromecast is powered by the usb port of the TV which isn't powered when the tv is switched off. The audio chromecast is powered via a usb charger that is powered via an extension cord which has a physical switch, which is located just behind the tv near the bottom right corner where the power button on the TV is. The cord obscured from view, but easily reached. When one turns on/off the TV, one then also turns off/on the chromecast audio. I don't think my wife has messed this up yet, and I've only failed to turn the chromecast audio back on once so far in about 4 months of using this.
The volume knob on the Lepy is around ~80% of max volume. The default power supply isn't enough to max out the amp, but we've found it sufficient for us. Fanless more powerful power supplies are available on Amazon for ~$20-$30. Fortunately the chromecast audio remember's the volume position through power cycles; we usually keep it around 5-15% , while the chromecast Video usually needs to play around 80-90% . It's really annoying that chromecast video *still* doesn't remember the volume position over reboots. The audio on the Lepy is at 80% because at that level, most stuff we want to play at the TV is a good (loud) volume at 90% volume for the chromecast. We have the extra 10% for some audio that's a bit quieter. So far we haven't felt the need to turn up the master volume of the lepy any; it's behind the TV, but at the lower left corner to access to the controls is easy for the taller of us.
Both Ms. nobeagle and I are happy with the volume levels, and I was able to hide everything behind the TV so there's no visible cables with this setup.
posted by nobeagle at 10:02 AM on October 2, 2017
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posted by wotsac at 12:00 AM on October 11, 2016