sharing costs in a new relationship?
October 8, 2016 5:50 PM Subscribe
I'm in a fairly new relationship with my girlfriend. We've been dating 2 months and exclusive for the last month now. How can I bring up the topic of money to her in a mostly non-awkward way? I'm uncomfortable about talking about it, but I would definitely like some help on occasion with dating. She's 28, a registered nurse. I'm 30, work in IT Helpdesk. We both really like each other so far and I'd like to start bringing up topics like this in particular in our relationship. I really don't know how to word it or even when on a date to ask it? I've looked all around the internet, and there's a lot of advice on BRINGING it up but not what to say. I'm more than a little awkward with these things and almost want an EXACT scenario and script to go by.
A little more background:
I've looked all around the internet, and there's a lot of advice on BRINGING it up but not what to say or how to say it. I'm more than a little awkward with these things and really could use some help bringing it up.
She's never offered to pay for the dates so far and we've been on probably 10 or 11 dates. It didn't bother me at first, but I do have a limited amount of money. This isn't a dealbreaker, but it's a conversation I want to have. Even if it doesn't change her mind and she doesn't offer to pay, I'd like to put it on the table.
Thoughts?
A little more background:
I've looked all around the internet, and there's a lot of advice on BRINGING it up but not what to say or how to say it. I'm more than a little awkward with these things and really could use some help bringing it up.
She's never offered to pay for the dates so far and we've been on probably 10 or 11 dates. It didn't bother me at first, but I do have a limited amount of money. This isn't a dealbreaker, but it's a conversation I want to have. Even if it doesn't change her mind and she doesn't offer to pay, I'd like to put it on the table.
Thoughts?
I think it kinda sucks that she didn't start offering to pay or split by the third date. That aside, the most casual way to bring it up may be to suggest a cheap date and admit it's because you're on a budget. "Instead of a restaurant this week, how about I cook you dinner? I'm trying to rein in my spending a little bit." "Instead of that show, how about we check out the art opening at the gallery? The tickets are more than I want to spend right now."
posted by metasarah at 6:29 PM on October 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by metasarah at 6:29 PM on October 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Has she ever offered to pay for anything? I would see this as a big red flag. I would not want to date someone who had not already volunteered on their own to reciprocate financially in any way. Two months isn't very long, but ten dates is more than enough for this thought to have occurred to her. Even if she's under the impression that you make a lot more money than she does.
I'm a heterosexual woman, and I've never been able to understand the mentality of women who "want to be taken care of" by a man, so I might be the wrong person to ask. What do you think would happen if you stopped initiating the asking her out for a while?
I can't think of any way to bring this up that isn't going to be awkward, but at this stage, it would be good to know if she thinks that having to pay her share is a deal breaker in a relationship. Perhaps something along the lines of "I'm enjoying where this is going and would like to continue to see more of you, but I'm uncomfortable with the pattern we've established around me paying for all of our dates. It makes me wonder if you like me enough to continue dating me if I'm not paying."
posted by amusebuche at 6:35 PM on October 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
I'm a heterosexual woman, and I've never been able to understand the mentality of women who "want to be taken care of" by a man, so I might be the wrong person to ask. What do you think would happen if you stopped initiating the asking her out for a while?
I can't think of any way to bring this up that isn't going to be awkward, but at this stage, it would be good to know if she thinks that having to pay her share is a deal breaker in a relationship. Perhaps something along the lines of "I'm enjoying where this is going and would like to continue to see more of you, but I'm uncomfortable with the pattern we've established around me paying for all of our dates. It makes me wonder if you like me enough to continue dating me if I'm not paying."
posted by amusebuche at 6:35 PM on October 8, 2016 [36 favorites]
One thing I like to do is is split the costs, not Dutch-treat, but rather "I'll pay this time, you pay next time". E.g. I'll buy dinner on a Friday night out and next time she buys. I like it because then both spend more or less the some amount of money, but also because it introduces give & take into the relationship.
posted by allelopath at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by allelopath at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just to add one more thing, I dated a doctor for a while and he made waaaayyy more money than I did. We started out reciprocating on dates, but eventually he paid for more of the dates because he preferred to go to nicer restaurants and bars than I could afford, and he knew I couldn't afford it. I was OK with that, and still tried to maintain a pro-rated sense of fairness.
Is it possible that you are going on dates that feel out of her range of affordability? Does she attempt to reciprocate in other ways, like cooking for you at home as a way of making up for not paying for dates?
posted by amusebuche at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is it possible that you are going on dates that feel out of her range of affordability? Does she attempt to reciprocate in other ways, like cooking for you at home as a way of making up for not paying for dates?
posted by amusebuche at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
I would bring it up the next time the conversation goes into the topic of your next date. Then you could say, "So look, this is a little awkward, but I'd like to discuss a more equitable division of our resources for when we get together. I've paid for all our dates so far, but frankly I just can't afford to keep doing that. In the future, I'd prefer to split the costs--not necessarily dividing the bill, but something like 'I get dinner, you get the movie tickets and Milk Duds' kind of thing."
If she's an RN, she can certainly afford to pony up her half of the bill. And if she fights it, well...I wouldn't recommend letting the relationship get to 3 months. It says a lot about a person when they expect to benefit from your efforts without having to reciprocate, particularly if a) they have the resources to do so, and b) they know that it's putting a strain on you. Someone who is okay with personally benefiting at your expense is ungenerous and a user.
So, I would bring it up, for sure. Be prepared to hear something disappointing, and if she does agree to chipping in for her share, keep your eye out to make sure she actually does it. If she *says* she will, but then mysteriously never has money when it's her turn to pay, then you have learned the same thing. A disparity in earnings is one thing (but frankly, I would be surprised if she didn't out-earn you) but a mooch should not be tolerated.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
If she's an RN, she can certainly afford to pony up her half of the bill. And if she fights it, well...I wouldn't recommend letting the relationship get to 3 months. It says a lot about a person when they expect to benefit from your efforts without having to reciprocate, particularly if a) they have the resources to do so, and b) they know that it's putting a strain on you. Someone who is okay with personally benefiting at your expense is ungenerous and a user.
So, I would bring it up, for sure. Be prepared to hear something disappointing, and if she does agree to chipping in for her share, keep your eye out to make sure she actually does it. If she *says* she will, but then mysteriously never has money when it's her turn to pay, then you have learned the same thing. A disparity in earnings is one thing (but frankly, I would be surprised if she didn't out-earn you) but a mooch should not be tolerated.
posted by Autumnheart at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Hey, so I wanted to talk to you about money stuff. I know it's kind of awkward so I just wanted to put my cards on the table. I love hanging out with you and am happy to pay for the dates that I plan, but the reality is that it's not sustainable for me to pay for us both every time we go out. Would you be open to taking turns paying for our dates, so if I plan/I pay, if you plan/you pay?"
posted by samthemander at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [42 favorites]
posted by samthemander at 6:41 PM on October 8, 2016 [42 favorites]
Well frankly, it should be a deal breaker but that's your business.
What you could say is "I'm curious about how you see sharing costs for dates in an exclusive relationship."
posted by DarlingBri at 6:42 PM on October 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
What you could say is "I'm curious about how you see sharing costs for dates in an exclusive relationship."
posted by DarlingBri at 6:42 PM on October 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Response by poster: I really like that SamTheMander! Simple , but yet... straight to the point. Even includes the awkwardness portion built in with wording :).
posted by isoman2kx at 6:44 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by isoman2kx at 6:44 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also I think it's fine if you make this as a bigger picture conversation. Like, "what are your parents attitudes about money? For me, my parents put a big value on (saving/budgeting/having the best/hard work/no debt/living for the moment), and so I tend to value (your values around money). How did your parents act about money around you?"
posted by samthemander at 6:44 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 6:44 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I like Samthemander's script. You will be able to see more of each other, and do more fun things, if you both contribute to the cost.
If she reacts badly, though, I'd consider that a serious red flag. Reciprocity is central to good relationships.
posted by rpfields at 6:46 PM on October 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
If she reacts badly, though, I'd consider that a serious red flag. Reciprocity is central to good relationships.
posted by rpfields at 6:46 PM on October 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: I agree RPFields. I'm fairly conflict avoidant also and working on that, so this is all new to me hence wanting a bit of a script to go by. I like using that script/wording to help me talk about it. I don't want to make it seem like I'm just pointing a finger at her "pay up or else we're done". But I'd like to talk about it and see what she thinks.
posted by isoman2kx at 6:52 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by isoman2kx at 6:52 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you want to make the conversation less stressful, try and have it on a date where there is no payment at the end so neither of you have to figure out if you should adjust your behavior on the spot.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 7:13 PM on October 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 7:13 PM on October 8, 2016 [9 favorites]
You can use the script above. Is she consistently making you dinner at home or drinks or whatever. Maybe she feels like that is her contribution. I agree with PP that not contributing should be a deal breaker, unless you see she is in some other way.
posted by Kalmya at 7:34 PM on October 8, 2016
posted by Kalmya at 7:34 PM on October 8, 2016
So this is going to be a wildly unpopular suggestion- but don't bring it up! Honestly, if I were your lady friend I'd be very turned off by this conversation and see it as a red flag towards you. If you feel strongly though then do it- better you both know this now.
I'm a decently compensated woman that typically dates decently compensated men. Despite ALWAYS offering to pay on a date, 95% of the men I date and have relationships with always insist on paying all of the time. So eventually I just stop asking. Not because I have a problem paying, but bc it is awkward to keep bringing it up. So let's assume that this is the case with your lady friend. If you bring it up (in any way), it will put her on the spot and make her feel terrible. There is no way that is not going to happen despite all the advice listed above. If money is tight then suggest cheaper or free dates. Generosity is incredibly attractive- so be generous with your time if you don't have the money.
When you are well into a relationship - several more months from now- then it is appropriate to talk about your approach to personal finance. Two months is way, way too soon.
posted by KMoney at 7:50 PM on October 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm a decently compensated woman that typically dates decently compensated men. Despite ALWAYS offering to pay on a date, 95% of the men I date and have relationships with always insist on paying all of the time. So eventually I just stop asking. Not because I have a problem paying, but bc it is awkward to keep bringing it up. So let's assume that this is the case with your lady friend. If you bring it up (in any way), it will put her on the spot and make her feel terrible. There is no way that is not going to happen despite all the advice listed above. If money is tight then suggest cheaper or free dates. Generosity is incredibly attractive- so be generous with your time if you don't have the money.
When you are well into a relationship - several more months from now- then it is appropriate to talk about your approach to personal finance. Two months is way, way too soon.
posted by KMoney at 7:50 PM on October 8, 2016 [12 favorites]
Is she asking you out and then leaving the check for you (which I would find hard to forgive) or are you asking her out and expecting her, the guest, to pay (which I would find hard to forgive from the other side)?
If you're doing all the asking and all the paying, both, that's the problem. If she is not participating in date planning and inviting you to things for which she expects to pay, she is not very enthused about the relationship.
or! she thinks you are way above her in the income bracket because she has no idea that IT something doesn't always mean comfortably richer than a nurse. and in that case, just tell her. but you can't be the one asking her out and then waiting for her to offer to split the bill, if that's what's happening. you got to address it at the asking stage.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:56 PM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you're doing all the asking and all the paying, both, that's the problem. If she is not participating in date planning and inviting you to things for which she expects to pay, she is not very enthused about the relationship.
or! she thinks you are way above her in the income bracket because she has no idea that IT something doesn't always mean comfortably richer than a nurse. and in that case, just tell her. but you can't be the one asking her out and then waiting for her to offer to split the bill, if that's what's happening. you got to address it at the asking stage.
posted by queenofbithynia at 7:56 PM on October 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you bring it up (in any way), it will put her on the spot and make her feel terrible.
yeah it will, but when the check comes and she just sits there waiting for someone else to get it, she's putting the OP on the spot and making them feel terrible.
If I were you, OP, I would put it in terms of: I love taking you out and buying you dinner (or whatever) but I feel like I'm running the show when I'm always the one planning and paying and that's sort of weird. I don't feel comfortable acting like I'm in charge when you're my equal -- you should get to enjoy that running-the-show feeling as often as I do, it's a power trip in a totally nice way. try it, it's fun! p.s. I am poorer than you think.
but more suave than that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:02 PM on October 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
yeah it will, but when the check comes and she just sits there waiting for someone else to get it, she's putting the OP on the spot and making them feel terrible.
If I were you, OP, I would put it in terms of: I love taking you out and buying you dinner (or whatever) but I feel like I'm running the show when I'm always the one planning and paying and that's sort of weird. I don't feel comfortable acting like I'm in charge when you're my equal -- you should get to enjoy that running-the-show feeling as often as I do, it's a power trip in a totally nice way. try it, it's fun! p.s. I am poorer than you think.
but more suave than that.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:02 PM on October 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
If it's easier, you could break it into stages. When making plans for the next date, say you're trying to stick to a budget and you'd love to have her over for dinner.
That may get her to say "You'll have to let me pay sometime!" Or, "Dinner in sounds lovely, I'll bring X." Or, whatever. Especially if it's just been a habit, where you quickly pickup the bill, she may be under the impression that you prefer to be the one paying. If you give her an opening, she may jump at the chance to volunteer to pay. Or say she can't because Y, but is so glad you're Ok with staying in....
If she doesn't give you much, then you've already set up a good opportunity to follow the scripts without putting her on the spot to pay immediately. You've also brought up the topic before, so it's not coming out of no where.
I think it's a conversation you'd want to have in person. Not because it's necessarily a fraught topic (to me this seems like a good time to start this kind of conversation, but obviously this is variable), but because you're nervous about it. In person will give you more feedback on how she's taking the conversation. That way you are not worrying about being misread or misreading her response.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:33 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That may get her to say "You'll have to let me pay sometime!" Or, "Dinner in sounds lovely, I'll bring X." Or, whatever. Especially if it's just been a habit, where you quickly pickup the bill, she may be under the impression that you prefer to be the one paying. If you give her an opening, she may jump at the chance to volunteer to pay. Or say she can't because Y, but is so glad you're Ok with staying in....
If she doesn't give you much, then you've already set up a good opportunity to follow the scripts without putting her on the spot to pay immediately. You've also brought up the topic before, so it's not coming out of no where.
I think it's a conversation you'd want to have in person. Not because it's necessarily a fraught topic (to me this seems like a good time to start this kind of conversation, but obviously this is variable), but because you're nervous about it. In person will give you more feedback on how she's taking the conversation. That way you are not worrying about being misread or misreading her response.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:33 PM on October 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
IMO, whoever asks, pays. If you're doing all the asking/planning. Stop doing it. If she's never asking or planning, that's not a great sign. If you stop planning things and asking her on dates and she doesn't mention it, then she wasn't that into you. If she does, tell her you're a bit skint at the moment and can't afford to take her out. If she doesn't then offer to pay for at least herself, if not you too (given that you've already paid for 10 dates) then I would move on. Don't waste your time on someone who expects to be taken care of in that way. Unless she has some idea that "IT helpdesk" pays a lot more than it does!
posted by missmagenta at 12:43 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by missmagenta at 12:43 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
if I were your lady friend I'd be very turned off by this conversation and see it as a red flag towards you.
Yeah. I am a heterosexual woman, and though I am off the dating market, while I was dating, any man that did this would probably cause me to stop dating them.
If you're hellbound on having the conversation, though, I think it's important you figure out what bothers you most about this. Is it that you don't have the money to keep taking her out? Is it that you feel like it's "unfair" if she doesn't pay for half the dates? What is the particular problem you want to bring up?
If the first, I would suggest the following scenario:
"Hey, Date, look, this is kind of embarrassing to say, but actually, while I like you a lot and love to spend as much of my free time as I can with you, money's a little tight right now. Would you mind if we did something a little less ritzy?" It then leaves her the option to either say "Not at all, here are some suggestions" or "Why don't I treat?"
If the second, I would suggest asking her, casually, while not in any way on a date that must be paid for, what her expectations and desires are around gender roles, particularly around money. Ask it in a non-accusatory tone, and talk about your own expectations and desires.
posted by corb at 1:25 AM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah. I am a heterosexual woman, and though I am off the dating market, while I was dating, any man that did this would probably cause me to stop dating them.
If you're hellbound on having the conversation, though, I think it's important you figure out what bothers you most about this. Is it that you don't have the money to keep taking her out? Is it that you feel like it's "unfair" if she doesn't pay for half the dates? What is the particular problem you want to bring up?
If the first, I would suggest the following scenario:
"Hey, Date, look, this is kind of embarrassing to say, but actually, while I like you a lot and love to spend as much of my free time as I can with you, money's a little tight right now. Would you mind if we did something a little less ritzy?" It then leaves her the option to either say "Not at all, here are some suggestions" or "Why don't I treat?"
If the second, I would suggest asking her, casually, while not in any way on a date that must be paid for, what her expectations and desires are around gender roles, particularly around money. Ask it in a non-accusatory tone, and talk about your own expectations and desires.
posted by corb at 1:25 AM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
You've gotten plenty of great scripts to use so I won't add another, but since you're a little nervous about having the conversation I wanted to reassure you that this is a super duper common scenario and many couples find they need to have this conversation at some point - if only just to confirm they're on the same page. You're not being petty or a dick or stingy, it's a very normal thing. Honestly if she hasn't offered to pay after 10 (!!!) dates I wouldn't be surprised if she hasn't already had this chat with other guys she's dated.
The only thing I would suggest is to keep in mind she may think she is reciprocating in an equal but different way - when you go out, do you always take her car? When (if) you spend the night together, do you always stay at her place (drinking her coffee in the morning)? Is she the one that provides a bottle of wine, a six pack of beer, snacks, or a home cooked meal? Does she come meet you at your job so you can walk home together? Anything like that where she might feel she's the one putting forth a little "extra" effort. Good luck, I'm curious to hear how it goes.
posted by Bretley at 2:11 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
The only thing I would suggest is to keep in mind she may think she is reciprocating in an equal but different way - when you go out, do you always take her car? When (if) you spend the night together, do you always stay at her place (drinking her coffee in the morning)? Is she the one that provides a bottle of wine, a six pack of beer, snacks, or a home cooked meal? Does she come meet you at your job so you can walk home together? Anything like that where she might feel she's the one putting forth a little "extra" effort. Good luck, I'm curious to hear how it goes.
posted by Bretley at 2:11 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
For the responders who've said this would be red flag could you explain why would this bother you? It might help in determining specifically what the OP may need to consider when broaching the subject.
Personally I would be glad to hear that a potential partner was responsible with money and not afraid to talk about it. I'd want the context to be "what are your values in respect to money in general" rather than "pony up or this must end" but that's because I value paying my own way and would have been offering to go Dutch from the get-go.
My concern at this stage is that if she values "the man should pay" she'll continue to think you will just get the tab regardless because you've kind of set it up that way, so revealing the reality of the situation may be a disappointment to both of you.
As such it's probably best to be specific. Plan a more low key date next time - a night in, a walk in the park, a drive to the local lovely view, and have an actual conversation. Ask her how she sees a successful relationship working, who has responsibilility for what etc. You should be able to gage pretty quickly whether or not there is a major schism in your respective values around finances and you can each decide to proceed or not on that basis.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:37 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
Personally I would be glad to hear that a potential partner was responsible with money and not afraid to talk about it. I'd want the context to be "what are your values in respect to money in general" rather than "pony up or this must end" but that's because I value paying my own way and would have been offering to go Dutch from the get-go.
My concern at this stage is that if she values "the man should pay" she'll continue to think you will just get the tab regardless because you've kind of set it up that way, so revealing the reality of the situation may be a disappointment to both of you.
As such it's probably best to be specific. Plan a more low key date next time - a night in, a walk in the park, a drive to the local lovely view, and have an actual conversation. Ask her how she sees a successful relationship working, who has responsibilility for what etc. You should be able to gage pretty quickly whether or not there is a major schism in your respective values around finances and you can each decide to proceed or not on that basis.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:37 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
Honestly, a woman who can't have this conversation with you is not a woman you should be dating. It's 2016, not 1956. Seeing the prospect of splitting costs as a red flag is a HUGE red flag.
I would bring this up on a free date - over a hike or a movie night in - and just say, "Hey, I've been having a great time with you for the last couple of months! I really want to keep seeing you, but I'm having a hard time paying for everything. What would you say to taking turns?"
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:32 AM on October 9, 2016 [35 favorites]
I would bring this up on a free date - over a hike or a movie night in - and just say, "Hey, I've been having a great time with you for the last couple of months! I really want to keep seeing you, but I'm having a hard time paying for everything. What would you say to taking turns?"
posted by schroedingersgirl at 3:32 AM on October 9, 2016 [35 favorites]
My own perspective as a heterosexual woman in my late 20s:
I would say that probably 85% of the time that I've dated anyone, we've either split the bill or alternated who pays. Maybe we'll split the costs in the same evening (eg he* buys our first round of drinks, I buy the second) or maybe we'll split the costs over different dates (he buys dinner one evening, I pay for the movie tickets the next time).
The other roughly 15% of the time the guy has either insisted on paying even though I have offered to pay for something, or will only allow me to pay for something that is a smaller amount (eg. he buys dinner and drinks, at some point he lets me buy him a coffee). Even if I am pretty sure that the guy's intention is to pay for my share, I will get my wallet out and/or ask whether he would like some cash towards our bill.
I would never complain about someone treating me, but I would feel awful to assume that's the case and not to offer
Long story short, I think it's unusual that she has never paid for anything and I think you have legitimate reasons to bring this up with her.
If she reacts badly to you bringing this up, I would think that it's time to consider whether the relationship should continue.
*he being potentially any guy I've dated, not just one person.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:14 AM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
I would say that probably 85% of the time that I've dated anyone, we've either split the bill or alternated who pays. Maybe we'll split the costs in the same evening (eg he* buys our first round of drinks, I buy the second) or maybe we'll split the costs over different dates (he buys dinner one evening, I pay for the movie tickets the next time).
The other roughly 15% of the time the guy has either insisted on paying even though I have offered to pay for something, or will only allow me to pay for something that is a smaller amount (eg. he buys dinner and drinks, at some point he lets me buy him a coffee). Even if I am pretty sure that the guy's intention is to pay for my share, I will get my wallet out and/or ask whether he would like some cash towards our bill.
I would never complain about someone treating me, but I would feel awful to assume that's the case and not to offer
Long story short, I think it's unusual that she has never paid for anything and I think you have legitimate reasons to bring this up with her.
If she reacts badly to you bringing this up, I would think that it's time to consider whether the relationship should continue.
*he being potentially any guy I've dated, not just one person.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:14 AM on October 9, 2016 [16 favorites]
Early in my relationship with Mr. Getawaysticks, he let me know (very gently!) that the dates we had planned were a bit too pricey for every day occasions. I wasn't thrilled to hear it initially, but he was/is WAY better at managing money than I was/am, and he was right. I think as long as you approach the topic respectfully and acknowledge that it is an awkward topic, you should be okay.
I wouldn't see this as a red flag at all.
posted by getawaysticks at 5:46 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't see this as a red flag at all.
posted by getawaysticks at 5:46 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
If she has offered to pay or contribute and you have rejected the offer that would make it a bit awkward now. But for me it would be a red flag if she has never offered, you raising it would be normal. Listen to her views on this and what she'd like to happen. Explain what you'd like to happen. If there is no common ground on this that's something you should work out sooner than later. For what it's worth I am heterosexual female and generally pay my way.
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:31 AM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by koahiatamadl at 6:31 AM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I haven't seen anyone suggest this, but why not ask her in the abstract what her thoughts are on sharing expenses in a relationship? Just like, I was wondering what your thoughts are generally on this thing that is part of relationships at some point?
posted by J. Wilson at 6:38 AM on October 9, 2016
posted by J. Wilson at 6:38 AM on October 9, 2016
If it matters to you that you be able to discuss sharing costs after 10+ dates -- which is totally reasonable -- then the women for whom that would be a dealbreaker are not going to be good long-term partners. There are good scripts above.
posted by jeather at 6:40 AM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jeather at 6:40 AM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
You got lots of good advice including samthemander's script, but I agree with all the folks who have said it's a bit weird she hasn't mentioned it at all, or offered to leave the tip, or SOMETHING. This would not happen in my world. But still, don't make assumptions about her reasons without having the conversation.
I really do not understand people who seem to be saying they would be somehow offended or put off by your broaching the subject. To me, that is crazy. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss. Of course it will be a little awkward, but this is the kind of conversation that can really provide some insight into this person and the relationship.
Good luck isoman2kx! Let us know how it goes. :)
posted by Glinn at 6:55 AM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
I really do not understand people who seem to be saying they would be somehow offended or put off by your broaching the subject. To me, that is crazy. It is a perfectly reasonable thing to discuss. Of course it will be a little awkward, but this is the kind of conversation that can really provide some insight into this person and the relationship.
Good luck isoman2kx! Let us know how it goes. :)
posted by Glinn at 6:55 AM on October 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm a woman who dates men, and I happily assume I'll pay 50% of theatre tickets, dinners etc.
Exception: if I have more $ than he does (eg unemployed/student vs full time work), I'm happy to pay more,
and if he has more $ than I do (eg unemployed/student vs full time work), I might accept if he offers to treat now and again.
posted by Sockpuppets 'R' Us at 7:14 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Exception: if I have more $ than he does (eg unemployed/student vs full time work), I'm happy to pay more,
and if he has more $ than I do (eg unemployed/student vs full time work), I might accept if he offers to treat now and again.
posted by Sockpuppets 'R' Us at 7:14 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: I really really really appreciate everyone's replies so far in this thread. Especially how to go about it and how to start off the conversation in terms of wording it. Thanks so much :)
So what I've gathered from this is that it's a little out of the ordinary, but perhaps not crazy that she hasn't offered so far. The red flag responses and the I'd be offended if you asked me this responses - I don't quite agree on those but that's why I asked as well to get the full spectrum of replies. What I seem to agree on everyone on, is that it should be brought up because it makes me moderately uncomfortable. Part of it is too, I've honestly never been in a relationship long enough to have these discussions and these things are new, they're a little scary and I have a fear of abandonment if I bring these things up. That's a whole other story!
She hasn't offered to pay anything so far. Now on one hand, she has occasionally reached into her purse when I delayed payment a little bit... but nothing came out of that. However, a few weeks ago she cooked me dinner at my apartment and that was really nice. There's only so much I can tell without writing everyone a novel here. Perhaps it's how she was raised and thinks nothing of it. I don't know. I'll find out.
Will keep everyone posted, as I'll bring this up on our next date , next weekend.
posted by isoman2kx at 7:47 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
So what I've gathered from this is that it's a little out of the ordinary, but perhaps not crazy that she hasn't offered so far. The red flag responses and the I'd be offended if you asked me this responses - I don't quite agree on those but that's why I asked as well to get the full spectrum of replies. What I seem to agree on everyone on, is that it should be brought up because it makes me moderately uncomfortable. Part of it is too, I've honestly never been in a relationship long enough to have these discussions and these things are new, they're a little scary and I have a fear of abandonment if I bring these things up. That's a whole other story!
She hasn't offered to pay anything so far. Now on one hand, she has occasionally reached into her purse when I delayed payment a little bit... but nothing came out of that. However, a few weeks ago she cooked me dinner at my apartment and that was really nice. There's only so much I can tell without writing everyone a novel here. Perhaps it's how she was raised and thinks nothing of it. I don't know. I'll find out.
Will keep everyone posted, as I'll bring this up on our next date , next weekend.
posted by isoman2kx at 7:47 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Part of it is also automatic habit to pick up a bill. It's a source of pride to be able to pick up the bill, but it's also challenging to do so on a routine basis. Even with things like dinner and a movie, it can be a little pricier for me with how my budget is.
posted by isoman2kx at 7:53 AM on October 9, 2016
posted by isoman2kx at 7:53 AM on October 9, 2016
However, a few weeks ago she cooked me dinner at my apartment and that was really nice.
Out of what, the contents of your own refrigerator? This is a big deal, because if she brought over what she made, then it is flat-out untrue what you said in the question, that you pay for all the dates, then. Groceries don't buy themselves and cooking is more labor than driving. This is pretty crucial information to leave out.
One out of ten still isn't equal, but if she's laboring to entertain you (and I hope nobody dilutes it by calling it 'emotional' labor, any more than you picking up the check is paying with 'emotional' money) it is going to go over much less well when you run any of the various equality scripts. which I would otherwise endorse.
the other thing, she may be uncomfortable with a developing relationship where after ten-plus dates, you guys are still doing things that cost money each and every time and is hoping that by not encouraging and expanding this pattern, it will stop. In my experience this would be well into the stage where, if you still both want to see each other, you do more lounging on each other's couches than buying theater tickets. though perhaps I am only revealing my own boring nature.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:24 AM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Out of what, the contents of your own refrigerator? This is a big deal, because if she brought over what she made, then it is flat-out untrue what you said in the question, that you pay for all the dates, then. Groceries don't buy themselves and cooking is more labor than driving. This is pretty crucial information to leave out.
One out of ten still isn't equal, but if she's laboring to entertain you (and I hope nobody dilutes it by calling it 'emotional' labor, any more than you picking up the check is paying with 'emotional' money) it is going to go over much less well when you run any of the various equality scripts. which I would otherwise endorse.
the other thing, she may be uncomfortable with a developing relationship where after ten-plus dates, you guys are still doing things that cost money each and every time and is hoping that by not encouraging and expanding this pattern, it will stop. In my experience this would be well into the stage where, if you still both want to see each other, you do more lounging on each other's couches than buying theater tickets. though perhaps I am only revealing my own boring nature.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:24 AM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Queenofbithynia:
No, no out of my refrigerator. It was part of a family dish she brought back when she went to visit her family and then she cooked on her own some other things too separately from that. My bad on that including that originally, I wasn't sure what was and wasn't relevant. The spending is still out of balance at the end of the day from the past few months, but as you say... cooking is pretty labor intensive and not just the final $$$ in the food cost that matters. It did mean a lot to me and yet as I go along with our relationship, I find it more challenging to pay for let's say ... NEARLY everything since everything isn't truly accurate.
posted by isoman2kx at 8:30 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
No, no out of my refrigerator. It was part of a family dish she brought back when she went to visit her family and then she cooked on her own some other things too separately from that. My bad on that including that originally, I wasn't sure what was and wasn't relevant. The spending is still out of balance at the end of the day from the past few months, but as you say... cooking is pretty labor intensive and not just the final $$$ in the food cost that matters. It did mean a lot to me and yet as I go along with our relationship, I find it more challenging to pay for let's say ... NEARLY everything since everything isn't truly accurate.
posted by isoman2kx at 8:30 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
There IS a way to accomplish this in your favor. Especially since financial responsibility is a highly desireable trait! You need to be sincere and confident in your delivery, so practice in front of a mirror until you are.
"I think we've been dating long enough to talk about finances! For me, I have financial goals that I work towards by living within a budget. How do you do that with your finances?
I have really enjoyed these dates, but I need to get better control of my expenses. We can still splurge sometimes, just not every time. What kind of less expensive "dates" would you be interested in?
The great thing about lower-key dates is that they usually translate into more quality time together. Have you found that to be true? What have you done in the past that made you feel more connected to your date?"
It's all about making the situation an opportunity.
posted by raisingsand at 8:46 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
"I think we've been dating long enough to talk about finances! For me, I have financial goals that I work towards by living within a budget. How do you do that with your finances?
I have really enjoyed these dates, but I need to get better control of my expenses. We can still splurge sometimes, just not every time. What kind of less expensive "dates" would you be interested in?
The great thing about lower-key dates is that they usually translate into more quality time together. Have you found that to be true? What have you done in the past that made you feel more connected to your date?"
It's all about making the situation an opportunity.
posted by raisingsand at 8:46 AM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
thanks for the clarification - this is a sensitive point to me because back in the days where it was the absolute rule that the man pay for everything, you (the woman) were expected to balance his spending on you by making him a nice cozy dinner after he took you out, etc. So women spent, or could spend, just as much in funds and spent much more in labor and planning, but the rule was that men's extravagance was public, because the public sphere of restaurants and taxis and box offices was the male domain, and the private intimate sphere of the home was female. So you were supposed to think of a way to equalize the investment, so that you didn't seem like a gold-digger, without ever suggesting you were "paying him back" for his spending with all the unpleasant connotations that implied about you.
which is not the case now! but the history informs some women's reluctance to pay, I think. some women are even brought up to frame refusing to pay as "self-respect." same as lots of women know that you keep a conversation going by asking a man questions about himself so that he can do all the talking, even though few of us are sat down and taught that in actual classes anymore.
sorry so long-winded and maybe none of this is driving your date's behavior, even unconsciously. but even though I am a hard-line always-pay-half-the-time feminist, it always seems unfair to me to think about this as though women are either stand-up partners or thoughtless leeches. this all comes from somewhere.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
which is not the case now! but the history informs some women's reluctance to pay, I think. some women are even brought up to frame refusing to pay as "self-respect." same as lots of women know that you keep a conversation going by asking a man questions about himself so that he can do all the talking, even though few of us are sat down and taught that in actual classes anymore.
sorry so long-winded and maybe none of this is driving your date's behavior, even unconsciously. but even though I am a hard-line always-pay-half-the-time feminist, it always seems unfair to me to think about this as though women are either stand-up partners or thoughtless leeches. this all comes from somewhere.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:55 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'm really torn here. Women tend to spend more money on personal upkeep than their male counterparts. Below are some of the expenses I have that men tend not to have:
1. Hair style/dye = $200 every other month
2. Various facial creams = $50 a month
3. Purses = at least $100 each
4. Bras = about $70 each
5. Birth control products = $20 a month
6. Lots of dresses for special occasions = about $150 each (a man can just keep wearing the same suit over and over)
7. Jewelry of various types
8. Extra money on transportation costs because it's less safe for me to walk around at night than a male counterpart
Your girlfriend may or may not have these expenses, but I wanted to give you some perspective. I feel irritated when a man doesn't offer to pay. I feel like it shows a lack of appreciation for the expenses that I incur that he does not incur. It would be a red flag for me that you are bringing it up after only 2 months.
On the other hand, it's great that you are being financially prudent. If you mentioned that money was tight and you loved spending time with me, but wanted to see if I would be open to less expensive dates, I would respect you.
posted by parakeetdog at 9:32 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
1. Hair style/dye = $200 every other month
2. Various facial creams = $50 a month
3. Purses = at least $100 each
4. Bras = about $70 each
5. Birth control products = $20 a month
6. Lots of dresses for special occasions = about $150 each (a man can just keep wearing the same suit over and over)
7. Jewelry of various types
8. Extra money on transportation costs because it's less safe for me to walk around at night than a male counterpart
Your girlfriend may or may not have these expenses, but I wanted to give you some perspective. I feel irritated when a man doesn't offer to pay. I feel like it shows a lack of appreciation for the expenses that I incur that he does not incur. It would be a red flag for me that you are bringing it up after only 2 months.
On the other hand, it's great that you are being financially prudent. If you mentioned that money was tight and you loved spending time with me, but wanted to see if I would be open to less expensive dates, I would respect you.
posted by parakeetdog at 9:32 AM on October 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
The answer to this is to transition away from dates that cost a lot of money. If you can't comfortably afford to pay for both of you, don't choose that as a date idea. If she is suggesting Chez Blabla and assuming you'll pick up the check, that would be the point to have a real conversation about this. Otherwise, don't get in over your head in order to keep up appearances.
This isn't to say that you shouldn't ever expect her to pay, but it sounds like she is contributing at least some of the time.
I've had a lot of conversations like the one you want to have around this phase of the relationship. It goes over well when it's framed more as "Is it OK if we scale back on the fanciness of dates or maybe start taking turns to pay?" and less "you never pay for anything". Do not frame this conversation around what she needs to start doing. Instead, frame it as the two of you finding a more sustainable arrangement together.
posted by Sara C. at 9:43 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
This isn't to say that you shouldn't ever expect her to pay, but it sounds like she is contributing at least some of the time.
I've had a lot of conversations like the one you want to have around this phase of the relationship. It goes over well when it's framed more as "Is it OK if we scale back on the fanciness of dates or maybe start taking turns to pay?" and less "you never pay for anything". Do not frame this conversation around what she needs to start doing. Instead, frame it as the two of you finding a more sustainable arrangement together.
posted by Sara C. at 9:43 AM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
For the responders who've said this would be red flag could you explain why would this bother you?
So, a couple things, actually are going on that combine to make it a red flag.
First, I'm a woman in my mid-thirties, and my cultural and other perspective on dating is that it's an interview process for marriage, where women are trying to convince men that they would be a good wife, and men are trying to convince women that they are a good husband. I recognize this isn't everyone's perspective, but it's still the perspective of a lot of women my age and thus may be valuable. In this case, if I were dating, what I would want to show to a prospective husband is that I am attractive, kind, compassionate, good with children, and will make a nice home for him. Cooking for the man is a part of this, as is listening to his problems, soothing when he's had a hard day, etc. Emotional labor is not free, it's an investment you are making.
What I would be expecting the man to show is that he's safe: nonviolent, considerate of the burden he is placing on me, and a responsible fiscal provider, who will contribute to the financial stability of a household, not lower it. Along those lines, the man choosing and paying for dates is part of the interview process. He's demonstrating that he can live within his means - that he's not going to blow his (and later, our) money on flashy stuff that he can't afford, that he isn't going to lean on me to prop up his bad decisions. That if something is too expensive, he can talk to me about it and take me on cheaper dates without being angry or upset about it. Because in a marriage, you're going to come on financial hard times, and how the man is going to handle it is important.
Second, in my culture, there is an expectation that you do not invite people to something that you can't afford to pay for them at. To invite someone somewhere and then expect them to pay for the thing that you chose and invited them to is the height of rudeness - maybe they are on a budget and would not have chosen that place. You are the one who set the price of the place, you are the one who must absorb the cost if they don't want to pay for that. She may come from a similar culture.
Third, I can't stress enough how much parakeetdog hit the nail on the head. Dating accoutrements cost money. Dresses, shoes, jewelry, body grooming/waxes, makeup, all these things cost probably more money than you're used to thinking about. My makeup bag, though accumulated through time, probably would cost me about $1500 to replace - and you do need to replace items as you use them up. The expectation in my culture is that a woman will spend a lot of money on looking beautiful for her dates, and thus it is only right that the man spend the money on the actual dates themselves, which will usually add up to only a fraction of what the woman has spent on being ready to date.
So a man saying "Hey you need to start paying for dates", from my cultural understanding, would be him saying, "I can't budget my money, I want to go to fancy things even if I can't pay for them, and I don't care about or value your financial situation, I really just care about my nice time." Which is, presumably, not where you're at! So that's why I'd find a different way of handling this, like asking her on cheaper dates.
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
So, a couple things, actually are going on that combine to make it a red flag.
First, I'm a woman in my mid-thirties, and my cultural and other perspective on dating is that it's an interview process for marriage, where women are trying to convince men that they would be a good wife, and men are trying to convince women that they are a good husband. I recognize this isn't everyone's perspective, but it's still the perspective of a lot of women my age and thus may be valuable. In this case, if I were dating, what I would want to show to a prospective husband is that I am attractive, kind, compassionate, good with children, and will make a nice home for him. Cooking for the man is a part of this, as is listening to his problems, soothing when he's had a hard day, etc. Emotional labor is not free, it's an investment you are making.
What I would be expecting the man to show is that he's safe: nonviolent, considerate of the burden he is placing on me, and a responsible fiscal provider, who will contribute to the financial stability of a household, not lower it. Along those lines, the man choosing and paying for dates is part of the interview process. He's demonstrating that he can live within his means - that he's not going to blow his (and later, our) money on flashy stuff that he can't afford, that he isn't going to lean on me to prop up his bad decisions. That if something is too expensive, he can talk to me about it and take me on cheaper dates without being angry or upset about it. Because in a marriage, you're going to come on financial hard times, and how the man is going to handle it is important.
Second, in my culture, there is an expectation that you do not invite people to something that you can't afford to pay for them at. To invite someone somewhere and then expect them to pay for the thing that you chose and invited them to is the height of rudeness - maybe they are on a budget and would not have chosen that place. You are the one who set the price of the place, you are the one who must absorb the cost if they don't want to pay for that. She may come from a similar culture.
Third, I can't stress enough how much parakeetdog hit the nail on the head. Dating accoutrements cost money. Dresses, shoes, jewelry, body grooming/waxes, makeup, all these things cost probably more money than you're used to thinking about. My makeup bag, though accumulated through time, probably would cost me about $1500 to replace - and you do need to replace items as you use them up. The expectation in my culture is that a woman will spend a lot of money on looking beautiful for her dates, and thus it is only right that the man spend the money on the actual dates themselves, which will usually add up to only a fraction of what the woman has spent on being ready to date.
So a man saying "Hey you need to start paying for dates", from my cultural understanding, would be him saying, "I can't budget my money, I want to go to fancy things even if I can't pay for them, and I don't care about or value your financial situation, I really just care about my nice time." Which is, presumably, not where you're at! So that's why I'd find a different way of handling this, like asking her on cheaper dates.
posted by corb at 10:05 AM on October 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
During "courtship," my boyfriend paid for all our dates. I did offer occasionally, but he made it clear that he wanted to pay, so I let it happen. It was romantic. Now, I make more money than him, so I take him out a lot, and I think he sees it as romantic as well.
I think I understand a lot of people saying that it's weird that she hasn't offered so far (though she does reach in her purse, so maybe she's just unsure of whether she should go for it, some men find it insulting), but on the other hand, it's very romantic to have someone take you on a date and cover the costs. If I were you, I'd simply start going out on cheaper/free dates, if the cost is getting to be too much. Ten dates in is familiar enough to stop being fancy.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:29 AM on October 9, 2016
I think I understand a lot of people saying that it's weird that she hasn't offered so far (though she does reach in her purse, so maybe she's just unsure of whether she should go for it, some men find it insulting), but on the other hand, it's very romantic to have someone take you on a date and cover the costs. If I were you, I'd simply start going out on cheaper/free dates, if the cost is getting to be too much. Ten dates in is familiar enough to stop being fancy.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:29 AM on October 9, 2016
I'll weigh in on the "red flag" concept from a different angle from corb.
To me, this conversation would be a red flag inasmuch as I would wonder whether my partner was truly seeing my contributions to this fledgling relationship, and whether that could be a signal that they will always see me as a grasping gold-digger and never as an equal contributor.
If I were your girlfriend in this situation, and you came to me and said that I wasn't pulling my weight financially* because I hadn't paid cash money for early dates, here's my thought process:
1. Are you one of those guys who thinks birth control spontaneously generates itself into my system? Birth control typically costs money, not to mention the labor cost of picking up prescriptions, remembering to take a pill at the same time every day, putting up with side effects, cajoling you into wearing a condom when you don't want to, etc.
2. Hm. He didn't see me cooking him dinner as a worthwhile contribution to a date. That's.... interesting.
3. Am I doing any expensive or painful grooming to cater to this guy's tastes? Bikini lines don't wax themselves. Ditto other fashion/beauty items men tend to expect but be entirely oblivious of the money/effort/pain involved.
4. What proportion of our dates relate to an interest or hobby you have a particular enjoyment of, vs. an interest or hobby I have a particular enjoyment of? It's not OK to hold a ticket to a sporting event over my head as not paying my way, when I otherwise wouldn't have been interested in attending said sporting event. (I also have to say that I dated a HUGE proportion of otherwise nice, caring, and feminist men who expected me to base all interactions with them around their interests while never paying even the slightest lip service to mine.)
In other words, the red flag for me would be more about actually seeing what I bring to the table, and less about "oh no my free ride is over".
*Again I think if you framed this as "let's scale back/work together to come up with a sustainable system", that's a whole different and not at all red-flaggy story.
posted by Sara C. at 10:50 AM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
To me, this conversation would be a red flag inasmuch as I would wonder whether my partner was truly seeing my contributions to this fledgling relationship, and whether that could be a signal that they will always see me as a grasping gold-digger and never as an equal contributor.
If I were your girlfriend in this situation, and you came to me and said that I wasn't pulling my weight financially* because I hadn't paid cash money for early dates, here's my thought process:
1. Are you one of those guys who thinks birth control spontaneously generates itself into my system? Birth control typically costs money, not to mention the labor cost of picking up prescriptions, remembering to take a pill at the same time every day, putting up with side effects, cajoling you into wearing a condom when you don't want to, etc.
2. Hm. He didn't see me cooking him dinner as a worthwhile contribution to a date. That's.... interesting.
3. Am I doing any expensive or painful grooming to cater to this guy's tastes? Bikini lines don't wax themselves. Ditto other fashion/beauty items men tend to expect but be entirely oblivious of the money/effort/pain involved.
4. What proportion of our dates relate to an interest or hobby you have a particular enjoyment of, vs. an interest or hobby I have a particular enjoyment of? It's not OK to hold a ticket to a sporting event over my head as not paying my way, when I otherwise wouldn't have been interested in attending said sporting event. (I also have to say that I dated a HUGE proportion of otherwise nice, caring, and feminist men who expected me to base all interactions with them around their interests while never paying even the slightest lip service to mine.)
In other words, the red flag for me would be more about actually seeing what I bring to the table, and less about "oh no my free ride is over".
*Again I think if you framed this as "let's scale back/work together to come up with a sustainable system", that's a whole different and not at all red-flaggy story.
posted by Sara C. at 10:50 AM on October 9, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm a bit older than you and not on the dating market. I am however a woman who has always made a decent income and been able to take care of myself. I definitely would have offered to cover more costs of dates by now. I would be incredibly uncomfortable with someone constantly paying for things.
When I was younger, while looking for partner, I was looking for compatibility, not someone to look after me. One of those compatibility measures was attitudes towards finance. I had/have a career that is known to be well paid and I dated a few guys that seemed to expect me to be living a bit more lavishly, meanwhile I had already dipped into the housing market in an expensive city and that took up a lot of cashflow. I didn't spent excessive amounts of money on clothes or grooming and I wasn't interested in someone who expected that. Do you expect that? The answer might indicate a shared value mismatch.
So, when to bring it up? If you've planned something expensive, you should still pay, not drop a request for funds into the middle of an expensive date. You don't know her financial situation, there could be loans or other family obligations. Instead, plan some dates doing something less expensive that you still like to do and see if you both still enjoy each other's company. If things are still going well, go for a hike, sit on a rock looking at a view, talk about the serious stuff and see if you really are a match.
posted by TORunner at 10:57 AM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
When I was younger, while looking for partner, I was looking for compatibility, not someone to look after me. One of those compatibility measures was attitudes towards finance. I had/have a career that is known to be well paid and I dated a few guys that seemed to expect me to be living a bit more lavishly, meanwhile I had already dipped into the housing market in an expensive city and that took up a lot of cashflow. I didn't spent excessive amounts of money on clothes or grooming and I wasn't interested in someone who expected that. Do you expect that? The answer might indicate a shared value mismatch.
So, when to bring it up? If you've planned something expensive, you should still pay, not drop a request for funds into the middle of an expensive date. You don't know her financial situation, there could be loans or other family obligations. Instead, plan some dates doing something less expensive that you still like to do and see if you both still enjoy each other's company. If things are still going well, go for a hike, sit on a rock looking at a view, talk about the serious stuff and see if you really are a match.
posted by TORunner at 10:57 AM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I'd like to be clear on one thing. It's not that I don't want to pay and show my girlfriend I can be a stable provider. It gets expensive though and at the same time, I definitely wanted to show her a good time the first few months and spent a little more than I probably needed to.
The makeup and other accouterments are an interesting angle I hadn't thought of either, so that's something I can keep in mind. I'm still going to have the conversation either way about it and I'm not planning to come at it from a "why don't you start paying for once?" angle at all. I didn't think I came across that way in my post. The reality is I've done the math, I've crunched the Excel spreadsheet numbers, and I can't keep spending $300 a month for 4-5 dates when my disposable money left over after expenses monthly is around $280. So something has to give, and what that give may be is less expensive days.
I'd like to incorporate something along these lines with the new replies in this thread. Coming at it from an angle of "hey , so this is awkward but I wanted to talk finances in our relationship. I really love spending time with you and at times money gets a little tight. what are your thoughts on doing some less expensive dates, like dinner and maybe a movie at the apartment? that kind of thing? what are your thoughts on that and finances in general"?
What do you guys and gals think about that one?
posted by isoman2kx at 12:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
The makeup and other accouterments are an interesting angle I hadn't thought of either, so that's something I can keep in mind. I'm still going to have the conversation either way about it and I'm not planning to come at it from a "why don't you start paying for once?" angle at all. I didn't think I came across that way in my post. The reality is I've done the math, I've crunched the Excel spreadsheet numbers, and I can't keep spending $300 a month for 4-5 dates when my disposable money left over after expenses monthly is around $280. So something has to give, and what that give may be is less expensive days.
I'd like to incorporate something along these lines with the new replies in this thread. Coming at it from an angle of "hey , so this is awkward but I wanted to talk finances in our relationship. I really love spending time with you and at times money gets a little tight. what are your thoughts on doing some less expensive dates, like dinner and maybe a movie at the apartment? that kind of thing? what are your thoughts on that and finances in general"?
What do you guys and gals think about that one?
posted by isoman2kx at 12:08 PM on October 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hey just a heads up, this is a big indicator that you are getting into an "our money, my money" LTR. Keep that in mind if things get more serious. It's a serious issue that you may not want to deal with.
posted by FakeFreyja at 12:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by FakeFreyja at 12:10 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't think you even need to discuss it, just invite her for more dates round at yours, and fewer dates in expensive restaurants (do Americans not have nice pubs to spend the evening chatting in? It would be a spectacularly unselfaware person who'd watch you go up to the bar every time and never offer to get a round in).
posted by tinkletown at 12:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tinkletown at 12:57 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think that's a great way to phrase it! You may be pleasantly surprised.
posted by corb at 2:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:02 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
It sounds like you're worried that your spending to date has given her the wrong impression about your income, and you are worried that if you reveal that limitations of your generosity (at least financially speaking) that she will ditch you. Well if she does you'll have learnt to be a bit more honest up front next time (and be thankful you found out now!).
Before you speak to her though you do need to be clear yourself on how you think of finance in a relationship, because I'm not getting a read on your position beyond the immediate issue of current pattern being unsustainable. You mention it being a point of pride to pick up the tab, which is kind of the opposite of saying to someone that you'd like to have an equitable approach to financing your dates. What are your values? Do you want her to contribute always, or just to offer to pay from time to time and/or be content with lower costing activities when you're not so flush (and how she will know when this is the case)? Or do you want to plan dates together and work together to plan how it will be funded in advance? Do you have a hard-line view or are you open to discussion?
Given the other responses here you probably also need to think about whether or not you care if she is expensively turned out for said dates. Personally I would run for the hills if I thought someone I was dating expected me to spend any time or money on grooming beyond what I would have been doing anyway for my own pleasure and self-expression, but in return I don't expect men to wear Saville Row or pick me up in a limo to prove their worth. I'm aware there are cultural factors at play here and that may be a luxurious choice for me to have but there you go, just another data point. Mostly I care that the person with whom I'm romantically involved should be able to talk to me and see a relationship as a team effort, in whatever configuration we're both comfortable with.
All of these things boil down to whether or not you are able to have a frank and honest discussion about what feels right to you, and respect that it may not cut both ways. In which case, don't worry, it's all part of learning how to navigate romantic relationships, and will extend to things way beyond money. Good for you for thinking about this stuff so early on.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Before you speak to her though you do need to be clear yourself on how you think of finance in a relationship, because I'm not getting a read on your position beyond the immediate issue of current pattern being unsustainable. You mention it being a point of pride to pick up the tab, which is kind of the opposite of saying to someone that you'd like to have an equitable approach to financing your dates. What are your values? Do you want her to contribute always, or just to offer to pay from time to time and/or be content with lower costing activities when you're not so flush (and how she will know when this is the case)? Or do you want to plan dates together and work together to plan how it will be funded in advance? Do you have a hard-line view or are you open to discussion?
Given the other responses here you probably also need to think about whether or not you care if she is expensively turned out for said dates. Personally I would run for the hills if I thought someone I was dating expected me to spend any time or money on grooming beyond what I would have been doing anyway for my own pleasure and self-expression, but in return I don't expect men to wear Saville Row or pick me up in a limo to prove their worth. I'm aware there are cultural factors at play here and that may be a luxurious choice for me to have but there you go, just another data point. Mostly I care that the person with whom I'm romantically involved should be able to talk to me and see a relationship as a team effort, in whatever configuration we're both comfortable with.
All of these things boil down to whether or not you are able to have a frank and honest discussion about what feels right to you, and respect that it may not cut both ways. In which case, don't worry, it's all part of learning how to navigate romantic relationships, and will extend to things way beyond money. Good for you for thinking about this stuff so early on.
posted by freya_lamb at 2:28 PM on October 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
So. Much as I understand that I am not the type of female to spend hundreds of dollars on makeup/pedicures/grooming stuff, and that other people do it because they want to and sometimes because they feel they have to, this tallying of who spent how much before the date even begins seems so odd to me (as a person born and raised in America). Of course I understand other cultures are very different and heck, maybe even in this country in certain areas. But wouldn't a woman who spends a lot on grooming and clothing (bras? seriously?) do that whether she was dating or not? Should the guy take into consideration one's yearly grooming expenses or just since the dating started? I am being snarky I know! But these are my thoughts.
Plus holy cow I got absolutely no impression whatsoever that the OP is going to lay ANY kind of guilt trip or phrase things in a "you're not pulling your weight" sort of way. I feel like he asked this question because he so much wants to AVOID just that sort of impression. I feel some folks are reading into his words things that are not there. Further, I don't even get the impression he wants to split everything 50/50, but just have her chip in sometimes rather than zero times (and yes of course her cooking is valuable and counts for a lot!). Ten dates is a lot of dates not to have offered once to contribute to the bill - but it may simply be lack of communication, which is what the OP has asked for help with.
It is clear from the scope of answers that there are many ways of understanding the issue, and because we don't know the woman with whom you will be having this conversation, we also do not know what her reaction would be. Personally, if someone took your very gentle broaching of this subject as grounds for dumping you, that would be a person I would not want to date and I would be glad to find it out. ymmv!
posted by Glinn at 2:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]
Plus holy cow I got absolutely no impression whatsoever that the OP is going to lay ANY kind of guilt trip or phrase things in a "you're not pulling your weight" sort of way. I feel like he asked this question because he so much wants to AVOID just that sort of impression. I feel some folks are reading into his words things that are not there. Further, I don't even get the impression he wants to split everything 50/50, but just have her chip in sometimes rather than zero times (and yes of course her cooking is valuable and counts for a lot!). Ten dates is a lot of dates not to have offered once to contribute to the bill - but it may simply be lack of communication, which is what the OP has asked for help with.
It is clear from the scope of answers that there are many ways of understanding the issue, and because we don't know the woman with whom you will be having this conversation, we also do not know what her reaction would be. Personally, if someone took your very gentle broaching of this subject as grounds for dumping you, that would be a person I would not want to date and I would be glad to find it out. ymmv!
posted by Glinn at 2:59 PM on October 9, 2016 [19 favorites]
As a feminist woman from the liberal west coast who never learned how to cook (until after getting married), asking me to pay would not be a red flag to me at all. So I think if the relationship you want includes more equal financial distribution, then you should just bring it up. And if she ditches you because you can't continue spending money at a level she would expect you to or because she isn't comfortable talking about money, good riddance.
On the other hand, I never wear make up. I only buy nice clothes and shoes and wear them for myself (my husband doesn't get to "expect" me to be attractive). I didn't get birth control until after I became exclusive with my now-husband. (He paid for condoms, and spent much more on that, than what I eventually paid for an IUD. Previous LTRs never went bareback.) I didn't wax except when I wanted to. I expected my husband to do half the chores at home when he was working full time, and even more than half now that I'm the sole breadwinner.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, whether you can/should ask depends on your culture and what kind of relationship you want.
posted by ethidda at 5:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
On the other hand, I never wear make up. I only buy nice clothes and shoes and wear them for myself (my husband doesn't get to "expect" me to be attractive). I didn't get birth control until after I became exclusive with my now-husband. (He paid for condoms, and spent much more on that, than what I eventually paid for an IUD. Previous LTRs never went bareback.) I didn't wax except when I wanted to. I expected my husband to do half the chores at home when he was working full time, and even more than half now that I'm the sole breadwinner.
So, I guess what I'm saying is, whether you can/should ask depends on your culture and what kind of relationship you want.
posted by ethidda at 5:22 PM on October 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: I do find it interesting with such a range of perspectives. For every few "I would never!" replies, there are women who also reply with totally not a dealbreaker to bring it up hehe.
There's a balance though and in the replies that have been more along the I'm auditioning for marriage , I do find a lot of value in that too. I'll leave it up to her if she wants to pick up a date or something along those lines. I'll speak my peace and do it in a nice way :)
posted by isoman2kx at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a balance though and in the replies that have been more along the I'm auditioning for marriage , I do find a lot of value in that too. I'll leave it up to her if she wants to pick up a date or something along those lines. I'll speak my peace and do it in a nice way :)
posted by isoman2kx at 6:34 PM on October 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Keep paying for dates, but just go on cheaper ones. Roast chicken, slaw and a couple bottles of plonk in the park - nothing wrong with that. $30 max. Hell, even "I'll get the booze if you get the food" will test the waters pretty well. If you "no, I insist"ed on your first few dates then perhaps she hasn't raised the matter simply because she doesn't want to irritate you.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:39 PM on October 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just wanted to throw out an anecdote that I had a very similar conversation with my now-husband when we began dating. It was probably at about the ~2 month mark.
He basically just said that he loved spending time with me and going out, but how about we took turns paying? I was a little mortified (AT MYSELF) for not offering enough that he had to bring it up. We started switching off and things continued happily ever after.
That said, he did make quite a bit more money than me, so if there were really expensive things he wanted to do, he paid, no problem.
I find it somewhat ridiculous that my grooming/makeup habits should somehow get me out of contributing to dates. It is my choice whether or not to dye my hair or buy the designer eyeliner. If I am choosing to afford that over affording to treat my significant other to a date...I think there's something seriously wrong with my priorities and I wouldn't want to date me.
posted by thisisnotkatrina at 6:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
He basically just said that he loved spending time with me and going out, but how about we took turns paying? I was a little mortified (AT MYSELF) for not offering enough that he had to bring it up. We started switching off and things continued happily ever after.
That said, he did make quite a bit more money than me, so if there were really expensive things he wanted to do, he paid, no problem.
I find it somewhat ridiculous that my grooming/makeup habits should somehow get me out of contributing to dates. It is my choice whether or not to dye my hair or buy the designer eyeliner. If I am choosing to afford that over affording to treat my significant other to a date...I think there's something seriously wrong with my priorities and I wouldn't want to date me.
posted by thisisnotkatrina at 6:16 AM on October 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
I really like your approach and think that any reasonable woman you would want to date would totally be able to have this conversation with you. Also, about this comment:
Despite ALWAYS offering to pay on a date, 95% of the men I date and have relationships with always insist on paying all of the time
Well, the difference between your girlfriend and this commenter is that your lady has never offered to pay. Honestly, this seems like selfishness and thoughtless on her part - it could be that she assumes that you *want* to pay, but it's very odd that she hasn't asked or brought it up herself. This is why having a friendly, low-key conversation to clear the air is a good idea..
My partner and I covered this territory at about the 2 month mark as well.. we'd been sharing costs but the dates were too expensive.. it was not an easy topic to address (a little awkward, of course) but it brought us closer together and helped begin a long series of honest conversations about money and finances that we're still having today years later.
I'd suggest that you frame the convo as "getting to know more about each other's approach to finances, paying for dates, etc" rather than "I feel I am being treated unfairly".. The reality is, you've chosen to pay for all the dates until now -- so you share equal responsibility in leaving the issue unaddressed for so long.. in other words, you're not a victim here. You might say something like "I know this is kind of awkward, but can we talk about money? I've noticed that I've paid for all of our dates so far and things are getting a bit too expensive for my budget. What's been your approach to paying for dates in the past? How might you feel about sharing costs in some way?"
If she reacts negatively or immaturely then I think that's a pretty good indication that you should not transition from dating to "a relationship".
posted by Gray Skies at 6:48 AM on October 10, 2016
Despite ALWAYS offering to pay on a date, 95% of the men I date and have relationships with always insist on paying all of the time
Well, the difference between your girlfriend and this commenter is that your lady has never offered to pay. Honestly, this seems like selfishness and thoughtless on her part - it could be that she assumes that you *want* to pay, but it's very odd that she hasn't asked or brought it up herself. This is why having a friendly, low-key conversation to clear the air is a good idea..
My partner and I covered this territory at about the 2 month mark as well.. we'd been sharing costs but the dates were too expensive.. it was not an easy topic to address (a little awkward, of course) but it brought us closer together and helped begin a long series of honest conversations about money and finances that we're still having today years later.
I'd suggest that you frame the convo as "getting to know more about each other's approach to finances, paying for dates, etc" rather than "I feel I am being treated unfairly".. The reality is, you've chosen to pay for all the dates until now -- so you share equal responsibility in leaving the issue unaddressed for so long.. in other words, you're not a victim here. You might say something like "I know this is kind of awkward, but can we talk about money? I've noticed that I've paid for all of our dates so far and things are getting a bit too expensive for my budget. What's been your approach to paying for dates in the past? How might you feel about sharing costs in some way?"
If she reacts negatively or immaturely then I think that's a pretty good indication that you should not transition from dating to "a relationship".
posted by Gray Skies at 6:48 AM on October 10, 2016
Am I doing any expensive or painful grooming to cater to this guy's tastes? Bikini lines don't wax themselves. Ditto other fashion/beauty items men tend to expect but be entirely oblivious of the money/effort/pain involved.
I'm sorry but.. this is so weird! If a woman grooms herself, she should be doing it for herself and in a way that she feels comfortable with -- not to cater to a man's tastes .. the idea that the expensive grooming habits a woman chooses to adopt in order to please an imaginary man she has not yet met - against her own will/tastes/preferences- should be counted toward the "costs" of dating is really bizarre.
No, OP: Presumably, both you and your lady friend groom yourselves in ways that you feel are appropriate -- you both probably wear and buy clothes, use self-care products and take some steps to present your best selves.. you are not responsible for the cost of her makeup (makeup she was probably wearing before she met you, by the way). If a woman chooses to wear expensive dresses and clothes that she cannot afford, that's her choice. While it's true that patriarchy exists and therefore men typically spend less on their grooming and upkeep, this still does not mean that you are forced to pay for all of your dates while she spends her excess income on fancy shoes she doesn't need. There are women who don't wear makeup. There are women who don't spend a fortune on clothes and handbags -- and there are also women who shop at thrift stores instead of department stores in order to reduce their costs.
In any case: It's very important that you figure out whether you are dating a woman who thinks you have an obligation to pay for all of your activities because of Reasons, or if you are dating a rational person who can talk about finances and cost-sharing in a mature fashion.
It's not that I don't want to pay and show my girlfriend I can be a stable provider.
This is kind of a red flag and seems at odds with your original post. You kind of have to decide whether you're looking for an equal partner, or whether you want to play the patriarchal role of "stable provider". If you want an equal partner, then it makes sense to talk about cost-sharing. If you want to be a "stable provider" for another adult, then that suggests you may embrace more traditional, gendered ideas about men providing for women, etc. Perhaps include in your money conversation a discussion of gender norms and get clear on both of your respective philosophies....
posted by Gray Skies at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm sorry but.. this is so weird! If a woman grooms herself, she should be doing it for herself and in a way that she feels comfortable with -- not to cater to a man's tastes .. the idea that the expensive grooming habits a woman chooses to adopt in order to please an imaginary man she has not yet met - against her own will/tastes/preferences- should be counted toward the "costs" of dating is really bizarre.
No, OP: Presumably, both you and your lady friend groom yourselves in ways that you feel are appropriate -- you both probably wear and buy clothes, use self-care products and take some steps to present your best selves.. you are not responsible for the cost of her makeup (makeup she was probably wearing before she met you, by the way). If a woman chooses to wear expensive dresses and clothes that she cannot afford, that's her choice. While it's true that patriarchy exists and therefore men typically spend less on their grooming and upkeep, this still does not mean that you are forced to pay for all of your dates while she spends her excess income on fancy shoes she doesn't need. There are women who don't wear makeup. There are women who don't spend a fortune on clothes and handbags -- and there are also women who shop at thrift stores instead of department stores in order to reduce their costs.
In any case: It's very important that you figure out whether you are dating a woman who thinks you have an obligation to pay for all of your activities because of Reasons, or if you are dating a rational person who can talk about finances and cost-sharing in a mature fashion.
It's not that I don't want to pay and show my girlfriend I can be a stable provider.
This is kind of a red flag and seems at odds with your original post. You kind of have to decide whether you're looking for an equal partner, or whether you want to play the patriarchal role of "stable provider". If you want an equal partner, then it makes sense to talk about cost-sharing. If you want to be a "stable provider" for another adult, then that suggests you may embrace more traditional, gendered ideas about men providing for women, etc. Perhaps include in your money conversation a discussion of gender norms and get clear on both of your respective philosophies....
posted by Gray Skies at 7:04 AM on October 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Chiming in to say that the expenses I incur having to do with my personal appearance/happiness are on par with my partner's expenses having to do with his personal appearance/happiness, and we both incur those expenses to make ourselves feel confident/happy, not for each other. I might spend $200 every 6 weeks on my hair, but he spends $200 over that period of time on sporting event tickets. We're making ourselves happy.
In addition, I realize I'm an outlier among some of my straight female cohort in terms of wanting to split checks or trade off paying for dates from the outset (date number one, my wallet is out), but I am also an outlier among some of my straight female cohort in terms of wanting to be an equal partner in all things. I do not need a man to pay for things for me and I don't want a man to pay for things for me. I need a partner, and I want a partner. Someone with whom - together - we will face life's challenges. Many straight women feel this way. Many do not. Many are still grappling with how they feel about this stuff - and why. I have friends who honestly can't say why they both 1) only want to date men who pay for all of their dates *and* 2) want someone who sees them as an equal partner. It's a conundrum.
So I guess my advice would be to understand that - just as you're struggling to find where you are on the "stable provider" vs "equal partner" continuum (perhaps recognizing that at some point in a long-term relationship, one or the other may need to be "stable provider" for a time period, perhaps due to the partner's illness/pregnancy/job-loss, etc), she may also be struggling with this. Personally I find the "let's talk about how we can both afford and enjoy our dates" super romantic - all that collaborative planning makes me feel pretty smoochy - YMMV.
posted by pammeke at 7:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
In addition, I realize I'm an outlier among some of my straight female cohort in terms of wanting to split checks or trade off paying for dates from the outset (date number one, my wallet is out), but I am also an outlier among some of my straight female cohort in terms of wanting to be an equal partner in all things. I do not need a man to pay for things for me and I don't want a man to pay for things for me. I need a partner, and I want a partner. Someone with whom - together - we will face life's challenges. Many straight women feel this way. Many do not. Many are still grappling with how they feel about this stuff - and why. I have friends who honestly can't say why they both 1) only want to date men who pay for all of their dates *and* 2) want someone who sees them as an equal partner. It's a conundrum.
So I guess my advice would be to understand that - just as you're struggling to find where you are on the "stable provider" vs "equal partner" continuum (perhaps recognizing that at some point in a long-term relationship, one or the other may need to be "stable provider" for a time period, perhaps due to the partner's illness/pregnancy/job-loss, etc), she may also be struggling with this. Personally I find the "let's talk about how we can both afford and enjoy our dates" super romantic - all that collaborative planning makes me feel pretty smoochy - YMMV.
posted by pammeke at 7:36 AM on October 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
It was part of a family dish she brought back when she went to visit her family
This makes me wonder if she's from another culture. If so, could that be playing into this dynamic at all?
posted by megancita at 11:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
This makes me wonder if she's from another culture. If so, could that be playing into this dynamic at all?
posted by megancita at 11:19 AM on October 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find it laughable that a man is expected to pay for dates because a woman has to pay for things to make her look pretty! And then sort of horrifying that many of these responses talk about dating as an audition for marriage, to show off that you conform to the 1950s ideals of the man working hard and bringing home the pay while the little woman stays at home looking pretty.
Count me in the camp of equitable division of paying for dates! Sure, specifics can vary based on salaries and whatnot, but, yeah, no, the man is not responsible for buying dinner by sheer virtue of the fact that he has a penis.
posted by firei at 2:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Count me in the camp of equitable division of paying for dates! Sure, specifics can vary based on salaries and whatnot, but, yeah, no, the man is not responsible for buying dinner by sheer virtue of the fact that he has a penis.
posted by firei at 2:41 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know...I think Bardolph is essentially accurate here. If you're "dating" AKA "courting" or "pursuing" her, and you contacted her first, you arranged these dates, you asked her to go on these dates, etc., then...you should probably pay. It's kind of shitty to ask someone out to activity X and then mention you can't actually pay for 2 tickets to activity X or whatever.
If you're "in a relationship" aka "partners" "boyfriend and girlfriend" "compadres" or whatever, then you should both be splitting costs of living together, activities, etc. But that's less "dates" and more "our couple activities that we mutually do."
I really think the distinction here matters. It does come across as a bit crass to me to be the one pursuing her and asking her out this whole time and then all of a sudden you run out of money. Why the change now, if your financial circumstances haven't changed? The answer is your relationship changed.
Make sure it actually has before you spring this. I mean, you do call each other "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" right? You're together on Facebook? You've met each other's friends, that kind of thing?
posted by stockpuppet at 3:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you're "in a relationship" aka "partners" "boyfriend and girlfriend" "compadres" or whatever, then you should both be splitting costs of living together, activities, etc. But that's less "dates" and more "our couple activities that we mutually do."
I really think the distinction here matters. It does come across as a bit crass to me to be the one pursuing her and asking her out this whole time and then all of a sudden you run out of money. Why the change now, if your financial circumstances haven't changed? The answer is your relationship changed.
Make sure it actually has before you spring this. I mean, you do call each other "girlfriend" and "boyfriend" right? You're together on Facebook? You've met each other's friends, that kind of thing?
posted by stockpuppet at 3:22 PM on October 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Oh the relationship absolutely has changed. We call each other boyfriend and girlfriend, she's met my mom and sister. I'm meeting her parents next month. And also I've honestly never been in a relationship this long to have a financial discussion. I do want either more equal partnership for costs, or alternatively just lower costs dates. Like I've said, the math doesn't work long-term. I have about $300 monthly left over after all my bills, and $280 of that on dates isn't going to work for me.
I disagree with the perspectives that just because I'm asking her out means I don't get a say financially. That's crap, lol.
posted by isoman2kx at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2016
I disagree with the perspectives that just because I'm asking her out means I don't get a say financially. That's crap, lol.
posted by isoman2kx at 7:59 AM on October 11, 2016
The reasoning behind the asker pays is because the asker is establishing the costs, costs that may be beyond the reach of the person being asked.
The rule is more applicable earlier in a relationship, at least in my personal opinion (although I've always been a cost sharer myself), when the two parties are probably not privy to each other's finances etc. It would be impolite to propose a cost to the askee that could be beyond their reach, possibly embarrassing them. It's a mechanism to help minimize awkwardness as two relative strangers figure each other out.
It would give you a way out of having the conversation right now: you just start proposing dinners in and other cheaper dates.
But it sounds like you guys are serious, so to me having a conversation is a good thing. Dates are now more things you do as a couple, and you two get to decide those things together.
I get the impression that you aren't intending to say "You need to pay up too" but rather "I need to cut back," which strikes me as the right balance. After all, she may be under the impression that you want to eat out all the time, which she's ok with but she wouldn't necessarily choose to do herself, so the former would be bit jarring. It would also make the conversation about her behavior and how it's unsatisfactory to you, not usually a great way to start a conversation and not really fair, especially early on in a relationship.
The latter is talking about your behavior and how it's impacting the relationship: I.e. you aren't shelling out as much money because of affordability, not because you don't want to keep wining and dining her. If the conversation you start reveals you guys are on different pages, that's a good thing. You want to figure out if there's a mutually satisfactory compromise, or if you need to part ways. That's what dating is all about (to me, anyways).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The rule is more applicable earlier in a relationship, at least in my personal opinion (although I've always been a cost sharer myself), when the two parties are probably not privy to each other's finances etc. It would be impolite to propose a cost to the askee that could be beyond their reach, possibly embarrassing them. It's a mechanism to help minimize awkwardness as two relative strangers figure each other out.
It would give you a way out of having the conversation right now: you just start proposing dinners in and other cheaper dates.
But it sounds like you guys are serious, so to me having a conversation is a good thing. Dates are now more things you do as a couple, and you two get to decide those things together.
I get the impression that you aren't intending to say "You need to pay up too" but rather "I need to cut back," which strikes me as the right balance. After all, she may be under the impression that you want to eat out all the time, which she's ok with but she wouldn't necessarily choose to do herself, so the former would be bit jarring. It would also make the conversation about her behavior and how it's unsatisfactory to you, not usually a great way to start a conversation and not really fair, especially early on in a relationship.
The latter is talking about your behavior and how it's impacting the relationship: I.e. you aren't shelling out as much money because of affordability, not because you don't want to keep wining and dining her. If the conversation you start reveals you guys are on different pages, that's a good thing. You want to figure out if there's a mutually satisfactory compromise, or if you need to part ways. That's what dating is all about (to me, anyways).
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:09 AM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
This concept of factoring in how much I spend on face creams and the like is completely bonkers to me. I am 45 and corb and parakeetdog's responses are blowing. my. mind. I feel like I've travelled back to Pleasantville.
posted by Bretley at 9:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Bretley at 9:32 AM on October 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
Can a man factor in his higher learning expenses that allow him to earn money? Or his nice car, suits, shoes, condoms, apartment, gym membership? Where does it end? I have never heard any women express that she believes in an "upkeep tax" so I wouldn't worry too much about it OP. At least you now know that those women are in the dating pool and you can decide if you are fine with that or not. To each their own and all that jazz.
It sounds like you and your girlfriend are in a good place romantically and I hope your conversation goes well. Best to you!
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It sounds like you and your girlfriend are in a good place romantically and I hope your conversation goes well. Best to you!
posted by futz at 12:53 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: From everyone I continue talking to, and here it sounds like it is at least a yellow flag that she hasn't paid for anything or really offered through 10 dates (excluding home-made dinner one time). So I feel better about bringing this up. We're going to lunch tomorrow. will keep you guys and gals postd.
posted by isoman2kx at 4:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by isoman2kx at 4:41 PM on October 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
We're going to lunch tomorrow.
Who's buying?
In seriousness, I wouldn't treat it as a "yellow flag" until you yourself say something about this. The most charitable interpretation is that she, like you, finds this subject a bit awkward and hasn't wanted to bring it up for this reason. Don't pre-judge, wait until after you have this conversation and then you can consider how you feel.
posted by grouse at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who's buying?
In seriousness, I wouldn't treat it as a "yellow flag" until you yourself say something about this. The most charitable interpretation is that she, like you, finds this subject a bit awkward and hasn't wanted to bring it up for this reason. Don't pre-judge, wait until after you have this conversation and then you can consider how you feel.
posted by grouse at 4:49 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please keep us posted! This is a fascinating insight into how people view dating, and I'd like to hear what you say and how she responds.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 6:05 PM on October 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Hi everyone, so I have an update and we talked over lunch today (in-person). It went fairly well, and I liked the outcome. Here's the recap.
I brought up after about 30, 40 mins since I was enjoying the lunch but was also nervous. I didn't quite lead into it with the script but started with this is a little awkward and uncomfortable, but I wanted to talk about finances in our relationship.
I told her that I really enjoyed the past 2 months going out with her and that I still have a good time hanging out with her. I then told her that at times, money has gotten a little tight and then launched into where I was coming from. I told her about the different things I had going on with student loans, saving for a car, expenses with an older car and keeping that maintained and just regular bills etc. She patiently listened and then I asked her how she felt about going on cheaper dates, cooking each other dinner to lessen the costs of eating out on occasion, and then just sharing the costs in general. She was receptive to all of those and said she could do that. We didn't go into detailed plans like "ok, next week you pay this... I pay this", but the hardest part is done with and I'm IMMENSELY relieved that I had the courage to talk about it in person even though I was nervous.
We told each other how we generally handle money, talked about how our parents handled money, how she's handled it in relationships. She's had one serious relationship and she would pay occasionally in that one she said.
She didn't quite offer any "why's" in terms of why she didn't pay after 10 dates, but I'll take it and I think the main thing is I can't be afraid to ask her to split the costs or "I get X (bowling , movies), can you get (dinner, or parking etc) ?".
Just wanted to offer a sincere thanks to everyone here for their input and that's all!
posted by isoman2kx at 2:46 PM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I brought up after about 30, 40 mins since I was enjoying the lunch but was also nervous. I didn't quite lead into it with the script but started with this is a little awkward and uncomfortable, but I wanted to talk about finances in our relationship.
I told her that I really enjoyed the past 2 months going out with her and that I still have a good time hanging out with her. I then told her that at times, money has gotten a little tight and then launched into where I was coming from. I told her about the different things I had going on with student loans, saving for a car, expenses with an older car and keeping that maintained and just regular bills etc. She patiently listened and then I asked her how she felt about going on cheaper dates, cooking each other dinner to lessen the costs of eating out on occasion, and then just sharing the costs in general. She was receptive to all of those and said she could do that. We didn't go into detailed plans like "ok, next week you pay this... I pay this", but the hardest part is done with and I'm IMMENSELY relieved that I had the courage to talk about it in person even though I was nervous.
We told each other how we generally handle money, talked about how our parents handled money, how she's handled it in relationships. She's had one serious relationship and she would pay occasionally in that one she said.
She didn't quite offer any "why's" in terms of why she didn't pay after 10 dates, but I'll take it and I think the main thing is I can't be afraid to ask her to split the costs or "I get X (bowling , movies), can you get (dinner, or parking etc) ?".
Just wanted to offer a sincere thanks to everyone here for their input and that's all!
posted by isoman2kx at 2:46 PM on October 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sounds like it went pretty well. Congrats on having a difficult conversation and thanks for the update!
posted by megancita at 3:04 PM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by megancita at 3:04 PM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Good work! That sounds like a collaborative and productive conversation. :)
posted by samthemander at 3:05 PM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by samthemander at 3:05 PM on October 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
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Granted, I'm exceptionally conflict-avoidant, but if it were me, I'd step up the cosy, cheap relationshippy stuff and wait for the problem to solve itself. Spend a few nights doing homecooked meals and movies on the couch. If she mentions going out, it's a great opening to confess that you'be been having to cut back a bit while your budget recovers. At that point, she'll either offer to pay sometimes, be cool with staying in, or (very unlikely) decide that it was only ever about the free stuff, and bail. Win either way.
posted by Bardolph at 6:26 PM on October 8, 2016 [26 favorites]