Getting a crusty finish to some banana buns
August 13, 2016 12:23 PM Subscribe
I have made these banana and cardamom buns twice now. How do I accomplish that beautiful-looking crust?
The buns in the photo look very well browned and pretty crusty. The ones I've made (photos: 1; 2) are tasty, but have a completely smooth crust that isn't crunchy at all whatsoever.
I read a lot of stuff online about how to make crusty bread and got into explanations of how to introduce steam into the oven, etc., which seems very complicated. Plus these people seem to have accomplished a fairly browned crust with little holes in the same recipe, more like the recipe photo, without mentioning any faffing around with steam baths or whatever.
I'm wondering if it has to do with the dough maybe? When I make the dough as to the specifications, it is completely impossible to knead and I find myself having to add copious amounts of flour to make it at all kneadable, and it's still extremely sticky. The batch I made just now, I used just about half the recommended liquid and still had to add a considerable amount of flour while kneading.
FWIW, I am in the US, using granulated sugar, all-purpose flour and instant yeast for the caster sugar, plain flour and dried yeast. I am weighing my ingredients.
The buns in the photo look very well browned and pretty crusty. The ones I've made (photos: 1; 2) are tasty, but have a completely smooth crust that isn't crunchy at all whatsoever.
I read a lot of stuff online about how to make crusty bread and got into explanations of how to introduce steam into the oven, etc., which seems very complicated. Plus these people seem to have accomplished a fairly browned crust with little holes in the same recipe, more like the recipe photo, without mentioning any faffing around with steam baths or whatever.
I'm wondering if it has to do with the dough maybe? When I make the dough as to the specifications, it is completely impossible to knead and I find myself having to add copious amounts of flour to make it at all kneadable, and it's still extremely sticky. The batch I made just now, I used just about half the recommended liquid and still had to add a considerable amount of flour while kneading.
FWIW, I am in the US, using granulated sugar, all-purpose flour and instant yeast for the caster sugar, plain flour and dried yeast. I am weighing my ingredients.
I only have basic baking advice. Don't overbeat the batter. Be sure your oven is at the right temperature. I'd be tempted to try sprinkling the tops with a little sugar before baking.
posted by SemiSalt at 12:36 PM on August 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by SemiSalt at 12:36 PM on August 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I would want this to be a pretty shaggy dough. I'd probably stretch and fold it with water rather kneading it with more flour.
A few thoughts - steam is an issue, but also how much oven spring is there, how are you forming the rolls, and are you cutting the top apart?
It's a high hydration dough but not more than a ciabatta or so. Have you thought about letting it ferment longer to develop the gluten?
posted by JPD at 12:36 PM on August 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
A few thoughts - steam is an issue, but also how much oven spring is there, how are you forming the rolls, and are you cutting the top apart?
It's a high hydration dough but not more than a ciabatta or so. Have you thought about letting it ferment longer to develop the gluten?
posted by JPD at 12:36 PM on August 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've heard or read a couple of interviews now with Chris Kimball, formerly from America's Test Kitchen, in which he complains that people always come to him saying, "Your recipe doesn't work at all!"
To which he replies, "Did you make any substitutions?"
"I just used water instead of milk, and sand instead of potatoes! Your recipe is junk!"
Which is to say, though they are not at all unreasonable substitutions, I think I would try it with caster sugar and active dry yeast before going crazy trying to troubleshoot a modified recipe.
posted by cmoj at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
To which he replies, "Did you make any substitutions?"
"I just used water instead of milk, and sand instead of potatoes! Your recipe is junk!"
Which is to say, though they are not at all unreasonable substitutions, I think I would try it with caster sugar and active dry yeast before going crazy trying to troubleshoot a modified recipe.
posted by cmoj at 12:48 PM on August 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Try a milk wash instead of an egg wash.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:54 PM on August 13, 2016
posted by mudpuppie at 12:54 PM on August 13, 2016
Response by poster: JPD: would you mind expanding on "stretch and fold it with water"? I'm still a fairly novice baker. I have a relatively small amount of oven spring and I'm just tearing apart the dough to form the rolls, and it did not even occur to me to cut the top apart (do you do that when it's raw?)
The first rest was about 2 hours and the dough definitely doubled in volume; I let it rest for about 75 minutes after dividing. This was in a hot and humid un-air-conditioned kitchen (I am in New York where it's in the 90s and muggy outside.)
cmoj: Point taken, although I don't think any sugar available in the US is the exact equivalent of UK caster sugar, superfine is probably the closest? Active dry yeast is an easy purchase.
posted by andrewesque at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2016
The first rest was about 2 hours and the dough definitely doubled in volume; I let it rest for about 75 minutes after dividing. This was in a hot and humid un-air-conditioned kitchen (I am in New York where it's in the 90s and muggy outside.)
cmoj: Point taken, although I don't think any sugar available in the US is the exact equivalent of UK caster sugar, superfine is probably the closest? Active dry yeast is an easy purchase.
posted by andrewesque at 12:56 PM on August 13, 2016
The yeast and sugar subs shouldn't matter. You should always make sure it has risen fully though.
Properly made bread is properly formed and shaped. You tube is hugely helpful here, but I'm guessing this is most of your problem.
You can also Google/YouTube stretch and fold, but basically for a dough like this kneading isn't required. Stretch and fold is much easier for high hydration things.
Also it's very very very hard to overknead a dough like this by hand.
The lack of oven spring is probably not forming the dough properly but it could also be over proofing if you followed times designed for 68degrees rather than 95. The rule of thumb is a properly proofed dough pops back slowly when you put a finger in it.
posted by JPD at 1:19 PM on August 13, 2016
Properly made bread is properly formed and shaped. You tube is hugely helpful here, but I'm guessing this is most of your problem.
You can also Google/YouTube stretch and fold, but basically for a dough like this kneading isn't required. Stretch and fold is much easier for high hydration things.
Also it's very very very hard to overknead a dough like this by hand.
The lack of oven spring is probably not forming the dough properly but it could also be over proofing if you followed times designed for 68degrees rather than 95. The rule of thumb is a properly proofed dough pops back slowly when you put a finger in it.
posted by JPD at 1:19 PM on August 13, 2016
I'm not the greatest baker, so take this with a grain of /groan/....
Consider taking your oven rack that the rolls are on and moving them up one "level" for the last 3-4 minutes of baking. That way, you're getting the browning effect from being closer to your heating element (ignore this if you have a convection oven, obviously).
posted by kuanes at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2016
Consider taking your oven rack that the rolls are on and moving them up one "level" for the last 3-4 minutes of baking. That way, you're getting the browning effect from being closer to your heating element (ignore this if you have a convection oven, obviously).
posted by kuanes at 1:21 PM on August 13, 2016
Best answer: Humidity and heat definitely speed rising time. It's likely that two hours followed by 75 minutes was too much. Your dough was probably over-risen and gave you much less oven spring.
You should also be sure your oven temperature is accurate. Consider getting a cheap internal thermometer to be sure.
Baking on a preheated surface, like a stone, tiles, or in a cast iron pan can also help with oven spring and crust formation.
posted by carrioncomfort at 1:24 PM on August 13, 2016
You should also be sure your oven temperature is accurate. Consider getting a cheap internal thermometer to be sure.
Baking on a preheated surface, like a stone, tiles, or in a cast iron pan can also help with oven spring and crust formation.
posted by carrioncomfort at 1:24 PM on August 13, 2016
If you have a convection oven, setting them on convect for the last 5-10 minutes would do it.
posted by littlewater at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2016
posted by littlewater at 1:29 PM on August 13, 2016
I find that adding steam to any bread or bread-like baking seems to improve the crust - it tends to be thinner, crunchier and a bit darker.
To add steam, put a metal tray at the bottom of the oven or on the lowest shelf. Pour some boiling water from a kettle into the tray occasionally during baking to produce steam.
posted by pipeski at 1:56 PM on August 13, 2016
To add steam, put a metal tray at the bottom of the oven or on the lowest shelf. Pour some boiling water from a kettle into the tray occasionally during baking to produce steam.
posted by pipeski at 1:56 PM on August 13, 2016
Best answer: Definitely stop adding extra flour to the recipe. That is part of the problem. The way I knead really wet doughs is in a non-stick Oxo bowl with a dough scraper of some kind. Just keep turning. It takes a while.
Then when you shape them, you want to roll them into balls and stretch the dough to make a flat surface. You pinch everything together at the bottom and then push them down a bit when you put them on the tray. When they have finished rising, take a really sharp blade and cut the dough down the middle. If it deflates, then you over-proofed. After cutting, do the egg wash and put them into the oven.
That should do it. And if it doesn't, then you can start looking at oven temps or adding steam to the oven.
posted by guster4lovers at 2:15 PM on August 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Then when you shape them, you want to roll them into balls and stretch the dough to make a flat surface. You pinch everything together at the bottom and then push them down a bit when you put them on the tray. When they have finished rising, take a really sharp blade and cut the dough down the middle. If it deflates, then you over-proofed. After cutting, do the egg wash and put them into the oven.
That should do it. And if it doesn't, then you can start looking at oven temps or adding steam to the oven.
posted by guster4lovers at 2:15 PM on August 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
The sugar absolutely could matter. It changes how the sugar is dissolved or suspended in whatever you're putting it in. I don't actually know that it does in this situation.
Caster sugar is the same as "superfine" sugar. If you can't find that, you can run granulated or powdered sugar in a food processor or blender for a while until it's, well... super fine.
posted by cmoj at 2:23 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Caster sugar is the same as "superfine" sugar. If you can't find that, you can run granulated or powdered sugar in a food processor or blender for a while until it's, well... super fine.
posted by cmoj at 2:23 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nah. Doesn't matter because it's getting dissolved either way and the recipe is by weight.
posted by JPD at 2:29 PM on August 13, 2016
posted by JPD at 2:29 PM on August 13, 2016
Then why does the recipe call for a specific kind of sugar?
Actually, that's it. Caster sugar has like 5% cornstarch in it. There's your crust.
posted by cmoj at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2016
Actually, that's it. Caster sugar has like 5% cornstarch in it. There's your crust.
posted by cmoj at 2:39 PM on August 13, 2016
Response by poster: Then why does the recipe call for a specific kind of sugar?
Actually, that's it. Caster sugar has like 5% cornstarch in it.
I don't believe UK caster sugar contains any cornstarch/cornflour and that it's icing (UK)/confectioner's (US) sugar that contains a small part cornstarch.
I'm certain the recipe calls for caster sugar because caster sugar is the primary "white" sugar for baking purposes in the UK and not for an unusual textural reason. Meera Sodha is British and the recipe comes from a UK cookbook, all of which generally call for caster sugar in any situation than a US recipe would call for granulated/"white sugar."
posted by andrewesque at 3:41 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually, that's it. Caster sugar has like 5% cornstarch in it.
I don't believe UK caster sugar contains any cornstarch/cornflour and that it's icing (UK)/confectioner's (US) sugar that contains a small part cornstarch.
I'm certain the recipe calls for caster sugar because caster sugar is the primary "white" sugar for baking purposes in the UK and not for an unusual textural reason. Meera Sodha is British and the recipe comes from a UK cookbook, all of which generally call for caster sugar in any situation than a US recipe would call for granulated/"white sugar."
posted by andrewesque at 3:41 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
1) caster sugar is still granulated, just smaller grains than us. Outside of meringues and maybe toppings a straight sub by weight for granulated sugar is fine
I bake from British dessert books all the time because let's face it there are two things the English do well - losing at sports they invented and sweets...and I've never had an issue subbing granulated for caster.
2) even if it were 5℅ cornstarch - which it isn't... In this case that would be 1.75 grams as compared to 250 grams of flour. It isn't doing anything in that ratio.
posted by JPD at 4:35 PM on August 13, 2016
I bake from British dessert books all the time because let's face it there are two things the English do well - losing at sports they invented and sweets...and I've never had an issue subbing granulated for caster.
2) even if it were 5℅ cornstarch - which it isn't... In this case that would be 1.75 grams as compared to 250 grams of flour. It isn't doing anything in that ratio.
posted by JPD at 4:35 PM on August 13, 2016
Credentials: I am a former professional pastry chef.
It's the sugar, at least partly. Get superfine sugar. The size of the granules *does* matter, as the size determines how quickly the sugar will dissolve when exposed to the heat of the oven, regardless of weight or volume measure.
All-purpose flour is fine to use.
Looking at the recipe, I don't think the type of yeast matters here, as you can add instant straight to the batter without adding to warm liquid first, but I would certainly experiment with using dry (not instant) yeast as the recipe instructs.
Also, one last hint: add a little bit of the superfine sugar to the egg wash. Actually, I would use about a tablespoon of warmed milk, stir in a couple teaspoons of superfine sugar and stir til dissolved. You could use that as is for the wash, or add it to the egg (honestly, I would add it to the egg).
posted by cooker girl at 7:38 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's the sugar, at least partly. Get superfine sugar. The size of the granules *does* matter, as the size determines how quickly the sugar will dissolve when exposed to the heat of the oven, regardless of weight or volume measure.
All-purpose flour is fine to use.
Looking at the recipe, I don't think the type of yeast matters here, as you can add instant straight to the batter without adding to warm liquid first, but I would certainly experiment with using dry (not instant) yeast as the recipe instructs.
Also, one last hint: add a little bit of the superfine sugar to the egg wash. Actually, I would use about a tablespoon of warmed milk, stir in a couple teaspoons of superfine sugar and stir til dissolved. You could use that as is for the wash, or add it to the egg (honestly, I would add it to the egg).
posted by cooker girl at 7:38 PM on August 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
That much warm liquid + that little sugar + kneading +time = the sugar is dissolved before it hits the oven.
posted by JPD at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2016
posted by JPD at 6:11 AM on August 14, 2016
You can make caster sugar out of regular sugar by blitzing it in the food processor or small food mill.
posted by guster4lovers at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2016
posted by guster4lovers at 5:19 PM on August 14, 2016
Response by poster: Success! I made another batch today (but totally forgot to take a picture as I was so delighted with how they turned out and ate half the batch immediately, giving the other half to my roommate) and they were definitely way crustier than the first batch. Not as pretty as the cookbook's photo, but that's how it goes.
I resisted adding extra flour and stretched and folded using a technique similar to that in this video. I also replaced the egg wash with a milk wash.
Otherwise I used all the same ingredients as before, i.e. all-purpose flour and granulated sugar so I'm pretty certain it was the outrageous amounts of additional flour and poor kneading/forming technique that was at fault before. Thanks for all your help!
posted by andrewesque at 6:14 PM on August 14, 2016
I resisted adding extra flour and stretched and folded using a technique similar to that in this video. I also replaced the egg wash with a milk wash.
Otherwise I used all the same ingredients as before, i.e. all-purpose flour and granulated sugar so I'm pretty certain it was the outrageous amounts of additional flour and poor kneading/forming technique that was at fault before. Thanks for all your help!
posted by andrewesque at 6:14 PM on August 14, 2016
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posted by andrewesque at 12:29 PM on August 13, 2016