There's a rat in the kitchen, what am I going to do
July 27, 2016 7:55 AM Subscribe
I’m moving out in a couple of months, but I have to live with the possibility of rodent roommates until then. How do I do that hygienically and sanely? (Most advice I have seen focuses on getting rid of the rodents; I am asking, how do you protect yourself from the diseases they bring in the meantime. Without freaking out on the regular)
These animals can get EVERYWHERE and carry e.g. hantavirus… I got a little panicky when I first saw/killed a rodent some months ago, and went to lengths, like
* bleaching all my cookware and packing it into thick plastic boxes
* keeping the kitchen sponge in a plastic box and taking it out & returning it there every time I washed my few remaining dishes (and immediately drying those and putting them into their own plastic boxes afterwards)
* washing all my clothes and putting them in plastic tubs and nylon storage bags (which I know can be eaten through, but I figured I’d at least see holes. I guess my clothes are probably not interesting to rodents, but they might be and the thought of them rustling around in there is creeeeeepy)
* packing my toothbrush away after use
* putting my slippers soles up on a bench to avoid a morning surprise
* only drinking from Thermos with a lid, not glasses or cups…. eating over the sink, never leaving food out of my sight
I relaxed all this after a while of not having evidence of rodents (and because it’s impossible to live this way for long).
Now I realize I am going to have to keep up hospital levels of cleanliness indefinitely (or until I move). See e.g. this advice:
If rodents are present:
- secure all foodstuffs in sealed containers
- throw away food or drink that may have come into contact with rodents
wash cookware and cutlery in warm water and detergent before use [BUT, question - if it takes bleach to deal with hantavirus & etc, isn’t this ineffective? At the same time, I have been eating all this time and I have not acquired hantavirus, to my knowledge]
- wash hands thoroughly before preparing food, eating, drinking or smoking [Sounds reasonable until you start to think you need to wash your hands after touching ANY SURFACE IN YOUR PLACE lest you thoughtlessly touch your face or mouth, which I do, am a bit of a nail biter. As you might imagine ]
- wear shoes and do not lie or sleep on areas where rodents have been active. If you are bitten by a rat or mouse, consult your doctor promptly.
There are no droppings, how do I know if they’ve been active in my bedding?
Have been keeping most food in the fridge since the first mouse (or rat). Throwing the little bit that’s not in the fridge out.
I might just use paper plates & plastic cutlery. The idea of cooking, at all, is upsetting. (BTW, any chance they could get INTO the fridge or stove?)
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes? (btw I like to keep most things out in open shelves so I can see and find them, this is hard for me)
Do I have to bleach the entirety of my place DAILY or EVERY OTHER DAY?
A cafe opened up in the space below me some months ago. At some point during the renovations, I (and my neighbours) saw what looked to be a mouse, or mice. (There had also been some scratching in the walls before that :/). My LL (who lives in the building) advised buying some traps, that was about the limit of his assistance.
His reasoning: this is a multi-unit building on a street replete with restaurants etc, can’t do much about it, rodents are a fact of city life; as long as they’re not in your apartment, NBD, right? I *guess*, except they’re probably eating through his wiring… LL was unconcerned :/ And not interested in e.g. helping me find, stuff and seal possible holes.
There is a 1” gap under the front door, no door sweep. He said if I wanted, I could get one :/ Fine, except it’s a hollow, interior door and I can’t manage to drill into the bit of actual wood along the bottom bc my hands aren’t extremely tiny and I can’t take the whole door off to do it by myself.
Also, I can’t physically access many places the rodents' ‘pencil-sized’ entry points might potentially be - e.g., around plumbing, radiators, the pipes & tubes behind appliances, underneath/behind cupboards, around the ventilation stuff, the real but non-working fireplace - he didn’t think it was “likely" a mouse might get in there.
I started with live traps (useless), went through trap variations, ended up using electronic ones. One animal died that way a while ago. I hadn’t noticed any sounds or droppings in a few months; yesterday, I saw that a trap had caught a thing, and yes there was a body in there. (With a longer tail than the first one… I think because it is older - which means it has been around for a while and probably has friends and relatives. I think it might actually be a rat. There are lots around in the city this summer, apparently :/)
These animals can get EVERYWHERE and carry e.g. hantavirus… I got a little panicky when I first saw/killed a rodent some months ago, and went to lengths, like
* bleaching all my cookware and packing it into thick plastic boxes
* keeping the kitchen sponge in a plastic box and taking it out & returning it there every time I washed my few remaining dishes (and immediately drying those and putting them into their own plastic boxes afterwards)
* washing all my clothes and putting them in plastic tubs and nylon storage bags (which I know can be eaten through, but I figured I’d at least see holes. I guess my clothes are probably not interesting to rodents, but they might be and the thought of them rustling around in there is creeeeeepy)
* packing my toothbrush away after use
* putting my slippers soles up on a bench to avoid a morning surprise
* only drinking from Thermos with a lid, not glasses or cups…. eating over the sink, never leaving food out of my sight
I relaxed all this after a while of not having evidence of rodents (and because it’s impossible to live this way for long).
Now I realize I am going to have to keep up hospital levels of cleanliness indefinitely (or until I move). See e.g. this advice:
If rodents are present:
- secure all foodstuffs in sealed containers
- throw away food or drink that may have come into contact with rodents
wash cookware and cutlery in warm water and detergent before use [BUT, question - if it takes bleach to deal with hantavirus & etc, isn’t this ineffective? At the same time, I have been eating all this time and I have not acquired hantavirus, to my knowledge]
- wash hands thoroughly before preparing food, eating, drinking or smoking [Sounds reasonable until you start to think you need to wash your hands after touching ANY SURFACE IN YOUR PLACE lest you thoughtlessly touch your face or mouth, which I do, am a bit of a nail biter. As you might imagine ]
- wear shoes and do not lie or sleep on areas where rodents have been active. If you are bitten by a rat or mouse, consult your doctor promptly.
There are no droppings, how do I know if they’ve been active in my bedding?
Have been keeping most food in the fridge since the first mouse (or rat). Throwing the little bit that’s not in the fridge out.
I might just use paper plates & plastic cutlery. The idea of cooking, at all, is upsetting. (BTW, any chance they could get INTO the fridge or stove?)
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes? (btw I like to keep most things out in open shelves so I can see and find them, this is hard for me)
Do I have to bleach the entirety of my place DAILY or EVERY OTHER DAY?
A cafe opened up in the space below me some months ago. At some point during the renovations, I (and my neighbours) saw what looked to be a mouse, or mice. (There had also been some scratching in the walls before that :/). My LL (who lives in the building) advised buying some traps, that was about the limit of his assistance.
His reasoning: this is a multi-unit building on a street replete with restaurants etc, can’t do much about it, rodents are a fact of city life; as long as they’re not in your apartment, NBD, right? I *guess*, except they’re probably eating through his wiring… LL was unconcerned :/ And not interested in e.g. helping me find, stuff and seal possible holes.
There is a 1” gap under the front door, no door sweep. He said if I wanted, I could get one :/ Fine, except it’s a hollow, interior door and I can’t manage to drill into the bit of actual wood along the bottom bc my hands aren’t extremely tiny and I can’t take the whole door off to do it by myself.
Also, I can’t physically access many places the rodents' ‘pencil-sized’ entry points might potentially be - e.g., around plumbing, radiators, the pipes & tubes behind appliances, underneath/behind cupboards, around the ventilation stuff, the real but non-working fireplace - he didn’t think it was “likely" a mouse might get in there.
I started with live traps (useless), went through trap variations, ended up using electronic ones. One animal died that way a while ago. I hadn’t noticed any sounds or droppings in a few months; yesterday, I saw that a trap had caught a thing, and yes there was a body in there. (With a longer tail than the first one… I think because it is older - which means it has been around for a while and probably has friends and relatives. I think it might actually be a rat. There are lots around in the city this summer, apparently :/)
Response by poster: I am not allowed to have cats. Or a bike (?). It's specifically written into my lease :/ LL wouldn't spring for an exterminator - is it useful to get one just for my place? Will they find and seal holes or just set up traps?
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:02 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:02 AM on July 27, 2016
Have you tried Rat Zappers? [Amazon reviews]
I've gotten rid of mouse problems with these. Rats will be tougher but if I had rats I would definitely put these out &/or call an exterminator.
posted by 6thsense at 8:09 AM on July 27, 2016
I've gotten rid of mouse problems with these. Rats will be tougher but if I had rats I would definitely put these out &/or call an exterminator.
posted by 6thsense at 8:09 AM on July 27, 2016
I am asking, how do you protect yourself from the diseases they bring in the meantime. Without freaking out on the regular)
1) keep your food in containers
2) wash food prep surfaces
3) wash your hands before eating and before preparing food
Done.
posted by zippy at 8:12 AM on July 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
1) keep your food in containers
2) wash food prep surfaces
3) wash your hands before eating and before preparing food
Done.
posted by zippy at 8:12 AM on July 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Best answer: If hantavirus was that common, I'd be dead by now. Every house I've lived in prior to this year was infested with rodents, including my childhood home. If you haven't washed off your soda cans prior to popping the top throughout your life, you have almost certainly put your mouth on somewhere a rat has run. And you've made it this far.
It depends on where you live, but your landlord may legally be required to hire an exterminator. This will start a fight with your landlord, so make sure you are on the right side of the law.
Keep washing and bleaching everything. Spray some peppermint oil around likely entry points (it hurts their sensitive noses.) If possible, move your furniture and items at least six inches from the wall-- rats and mice don't like running in the open, they like to stay by the entry and follow a covered wall. With food, if in doubt, throw it out, but if it's in the fridge, it's almost certainly totally safe. If you can hire a guy to install a door sweep, that will help, and you can likely deduct the cost from rent. A door sweep/weather stripping is also energy-efficient, so it's a good idea anyway.
Rats are not gamboling around in you bed. They would have no reason to go there and don't like running around in the open. You could strip the bed every morning, put the sheets in a plastic box, and remake the bed at night if you needed to put your mind at ease, but really, it's probably fine. The only time you see rats in a bed is where the infestation is crazy out of hand, and you would see way more rats (they get bold and will come out and stare at you, no joke) before that happened.
If the rats are doing anything, they're living in the walls and may venture out to find food/bedding. If your house sucks (no food or chewables easily to hand) they will go elsewhere. They would only go into a house as clean as yours to check it out or if they were desperate. If they were chewing on stuff, you would already know. You'd also hear them at night. It sounds like a couple rats in the walls, and by all means, find out if you can legally hire an exterminator, but while you're there: breathe, concentrate on what you're going to do.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:15 AM on July 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
It depends on where you live, but your landlord may legally be required to hire an exterminator. This will start a fight with your landlord, so make sure you are on the right side of the law.
Keep washing and bleaching everything. Spray some peppermint oil around likely entry points (it hurts their sensitive noses.) If possible, move your furniture and items at least six inches from the wall-- rats and mice don't like running in the open, they like to stay by the entry and follow a covered wall. With food, if in doubt, throw it out, but if it's in the fridge, it's almost certainly totally safe. If you can hire a guy to install a door sweep, that will help, and you can likely deduct the cost from rent. A door sweep/weather stripping is also energy-efficient, so it's a good idea anyway.
Rats are not gamboling around in you bed. They would have no reason to go there and don't like running around in the open. You could strip the bed every morning, put the sheets in a plastic box, and remake the bed at night if you needed to put your mind at ease, but really, it's probably fine. The only time you see rats in a bed is where the infestation is crazy out of hand, and you would see way more rats (they get bold and will come out and stare at you, no joke) before that happened.
If the rats are doing anything, they're living in the walls and may venture out to find food/bedding. If your house sucks (no food or chewables easily to hand) they will go elsewhere. They would only go into a house as clean as yours to check it out or if they were desperate. If they were chewing on stuff, you would already know. You'd also hear them at night. It sounds like a couple rats in the walls, and by all means, find out if you can legally hire an exterminator, but while you're there: breathe, concentrate on what you're going to do.
posted by blnkfrnk at 8:15 AM on July 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yeah, zippy has it. This is just about basic safety and hygenic precaution, not about running a BIOSAFETY LEVEL 4 facility.
If you don't see droppings or other signs (chew marks on food containers), you generally don't have a rodent problem.
Learning to live with rats is not a great idea. If you have rats, kill them. It seems like you have been successful doing this before. It's not a terrible idea to leave out traps for a few weeks after the last catch. In some cases, repeated trapping by itself is not enough. It does not seem to me that you are in this case. Even if you were in that case, you'd still want to trap/kill as many as possible. I prefer using peanut butter in this type of trap.
I gently suggest your level of concern seems ... anomalous, and perhaps that's worth thinking about?
Seriously, no rat is going to pee on your toothbrush, I promise.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:22 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you don't see droppings or other signs (chew marks on food containers), you generally don't have a rodent problem.
Learning to live with rats is not a great idea. If you have rats, kill them. It seems like you have been successful doing this before. It's not a terrible idea to leave out traps for a few weeks after the last catch. In some cases, repeated trapping by itself is not enough. It does not seem to me that you are in this case. Even if you were in that case, you'd still want to trap/kill as many as possible. I prefer using peanut butter in this type of trap.
I gently suggest your level of concern seems ... anomalous, and perhaps that's worth thinking about?
Seriously, no rat is going to pee on your toothbrush, I promise.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:22 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Your landlord might spring for an exterminator. When I lived in Brooklyn, it was in my lease and an exterminator came to every unit every third Saturday. At least ask him or her. Rats are a reality of city life, as is extermination.
posted by serenity_now at 8:27 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by serenity_now at 8:27 AM on July 27, 2016
Response by poster: I have electronic traps, and they are always out, that is how the last interloper was found. I am not not killing them. I am just very limited in what I can do in my place, other than having these traps, and it seems very likely the problem will continue, given this. Since public health officials are worried about it, I feel my level of concern is appropriate. LL will not pay for exterminator, have asked.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2016
Are there actually rats, or just mice? In any case, most city rats and mice do not carry hantavirus, fortunately.
I've lived catless in a house with many mice - they were bold enough to come out and run around some nights. I think it's probably been twenty years since I've lived anywhere truly mouse-free, because I live in cheap housing in the middle of a city.
Mice are not that bad.
I think you're either projecting some anxieties onto the mouse thing or struggling with anxiety disorder and should address that - your post reminds me of how I felt when I had a [redacted] house issue scare a few years ago and was taking truly excessive precautions. I'd say, see a therapist to talk about the anxiety.
But in terms of dealing with mice: unless you have a YUGE infestation, they are not really interested in your bedroom. Don't leave crumbs in your bedroom and they won't go there. I have almost never had problems with mice anywhere but around food debris. As an additional precaution, you can make sure that your books and paper stuff are not arranged to provide dark hiding places - so make sure your books are flat to the back of the bookcase and that any loose piles of papers (big piles, not just five or ten sheets) are sorted and put away.
In the kitchen, keep things clean and keep food shut away in plastic or the fridge, and mice won't be interested.
Minimize hiding places - keep drawers clean, open them regularly, and if you have long-term storage that you never disturb, consider boxing that stuff up in plastic tubs. When I lived in a place with a bad infestation, we had a problem with some deep pantry cabinets that were seldom opened - mice looked for food in the kitchen and hid in the cabinets.
If you do these things until you move, I doubt very much that you'll have a lot of trouble with mice.
The best thing for mice is a cat, though - if you are worried about this, seek out a place where you can own a cat. We had a mouse problem in my current, impossible to seal up elderly Victorian house, and now that we have a cat, we have no mouse problem. Very occasionally a mouse will come into the mudroom, and our cat will have a lot of fun tracking and killing it. But mostly the mice smell the cat and stay away.
posted by Frowner at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I've lived catless in a house with many mice - they were bold enough to come out and run around some nights. I think it's probably been twenty years since I've lived anywhere truly mouse-free, because I live in cheap housing in the middle of a city.
Mice are not that bad.
I think you're either projecting some anxieties onto the mouse thing or struggling with anxiety disorder and should address that - your post reminds me of how I felt when I had a [redacted] house issue scare a few years ago and was taking truly excessive precautions. I'd say, see a therapist to talk about the anxiety.
But in terms of dealing with mice: unless you have a YUGE infestation, they are not really interested in your bedroom. Don't leave crumbs in your bedroom and they won't go there. I have almost never had problems with mice anywhere but around food debris. As an additional precaution, you can make sure that your books and paper stuff are not arranged to provide dark hiding places - so make sure your books are flat to the back of the bookcase and that any loose piles of papers (big piles, not just five or ten sheets) are sorted and put away.
In the kitchen, keep things clean and keep food shut away in plastic or the fridge, and mice won't be interested.
Minimize hiding places - keep drawers clean, open them regularly, and if you have long-term storage that you never disturb, consider boxing that stuff up in plastic tubs. When I lived in a place with a bad infestation, we had a problem with some deep pantry cabinets that were seldom opened - mice looked for food in the kitchen and hid in the cabinets.
If you do these things until you move, I doubt very much that you'll have a lot of trouble with mice.
The best thing for mice is a cat, though - if you are worried about this, seek out a place where you can own a cat. We had a mouse problem in my current, impossible to seal up elderly Victorian house, and now that we have a cat, we have no mouse problem. Very occasionally a mouse will come into the mudroom, and our cat will have a lot of fun tracking and killing it. But mostly the mice smell the cat and stay away.
posted by Frowner at 8:28 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, if you are not seeing mouse droppings, you have at worse mice who pass through on their way somewhere else. Believe me, mice are horribly messy - that's the real problem with them, IMO.
You might see mouse droppings in drawers that are low to the ground (I've never had a lot of problem with high shelves or drawers), especially deep shelves or drawers stacked with stuff that is seldom disturbed. If you are not seeing mouse droppings in the dark quiet corners of your apartment, you do not have any significant number of residential mice.
ET clarify - the drawers are safe places for mice because they are seldom disturbed - low, deep shelves or drawers that are seldom used can provide mouse hiding places, but low or deep drawers that are used all the time generally do not.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 27, 2016
You might see mouse droppings in drawers that are low to the ground (I've never had a lot of problem with high shelves or drawers), especially deep shelves or drawers stacked with stuff that is seldom disturbed. If you are not seeing mouse droppings in the dark quiet corners of your apartment, you do not have any significant number of residential mice.
ET clarify - the drawers are safe places for mice because they are seldom disturbed - low, deep shelves or drawers that are seldom used can provide mouse hiding places, but low or deep drawers that are used all the time generally do not.
posted by Frowner at 8:32 AM on July 27, 2016
I would probably violate the lease and borrow a cat. Low chance your landlord will know and if they find out you beg for forgiveness and say that a friend just died and you're just keeping the cat until their sister can come and get it next week.
posted by k8t at 8:38 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by k8t at 8:38 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Public health officials are not recommending you keep your toothbrush and kitchen sponge in sealed containers at all times. Perhaps your concern is fine and warranted, and I will assume so going forward.
Keep in mind rodents are nocturnal, and seeking food. They are not generally going to mess around in your bedroom or living room, nor run into a room in the daytime to lick your cup when your back is turned.
If you are not killing rodents you trap, what are you doing with them? If you're not willing to kill rodents or use kill traps, then maybe you *do* have to resign yourself to living with rodents. In that case, zippy's suggestion is still spot-on. I'd add to that getting a set of earplugs or a white noise generator, because getting woken up by rats scratching in the walls is no fun.
I also agree with serenity_now -- extermination of rodents is a fact of city life, and anything short of killing them is just enabling the problem to persist.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:43 AM on July 27, 2016
Keep in mind rodents are nocturnal, and seeking food. They are not generally going to mess around in your bedroom or living room, nor run into a room in the daytime to lick your cup when your back is turned.
If you are not killing rodents you trap, what are you doing with them? If you're not willing to kill rodents or use kill traps, then maybe you *do* have to resign yourself to living with rodents. In that case, zippy's suggestion is still spot-on. I'd add to that getting a set of earplugs or a white noise generator, because getting woken up by rats scratching in the walls is no fun.
I also agree with serenity_now -- extermination of rodents is a fact of city life, and anything short of killing them is just enabling the problem to persist.
posted by SaltySalticid at 8:43 AM on July 27, 2016
Best answer: Could you ask a friend with a cat for a donation of used litter? (You can tuck it away in a small open box somewhere.) I know, it's gross, but this has worked for me in the past as a rodent repellent.
posted by sophieblue at 8:44 AM on July 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sophieblue at 8:44 AM on July 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I am not an expert but so many urban places have rodents and hantavirus isn't killing millions in an apocalyptic epidemic. If those rodents were that dangerously infectious the people who ate in the cafe downstairs where they originate would all have hantavirus. The cafe is not putting its forks in plastic tubs.
I think hantavirus mainly infects people who breathe in droppings when cleaning out attics and storage spaces where rodents have lived for years. Maybe ask your doctor if you're that worried?
I lived in row house Philadelphia for a few years, where rodents were basically ubiquitous. A pain, and gross, but not an emergency.
Now if it really is rats, you don't want them near you for visceral reasons that don't need to have anything to do with health to make total sense. You might call the city for traps.
posted by flourpot at 8:45 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think hantavirus mainly infects people who breathe in droppings when cleaning out attics and storage spaces where rodents have lived for years. Maybe ask your doctor if you're that worried?
I lived in row house Philadelphia for a few years, where rodents were basically ubiquitous. A pain, and gross, but not an emergency.
Now if it really is rats, you don't want them near you for visceral reasons that don't need to have anything to do with health to make total sense. You might call the city for traps.
posted by flourpot at 8:45 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: I am killing the animals, SaltySalticid. With the electronic traps I have said (twice now) that I use. Also, I live in a studio apartment, I just have an everything room.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:47 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:47 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think hantavirus is more related to mice in woods/forests and rural areas.
I still understand your concern-- we had mice a few years back and it was disgusting. They made quite a horrible mess before we even realized we had them. We went nutso with the steel wool and traps and never saw one again.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:47 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I still understand your concern-- we had mice a few years back and it was disgusting. They made quite a horrible mess before we even realized we had them. We went nutso with the steel wool and traps and never saw one again.
posted by stoneandstar at 8:47 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Considering the lengths you've already gone to making your home unattractive to them, unless you catch another tonight and another the next day, I don't think you have a serious problem at all. You killed one a few months back, things were quiet. Another explorer passed through last night, also trapped. Rats are smart, and cautious, but not enough to avoid getting trapped regularly! Given your heightened sensitivity to their presence, if you're not waking up every night to the sound of them in the walls, I doubt you're being overrun. Despite the prevailing wisdom about where there's one, there's many, most of my rodent experiences have followed this pattern. Catch a couple, then silent again.
posted by Lorin at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2016
posted by Lorin at 8:51 AM on July 27, 2016
Best answer: There is a 1” gap under the front door, no door sweep. He said if I wanted, I could get one :/ Fine, except it’s a hollow, interior door and I can’t manage to drill into the bit of actual wood along the bottom bc my hands aren’t extremely tiny and I can’t take the whole door off to do it by myself.
Is a door sweep one of those long flat brush things that keeps draughts and woodlice - and mice - from coming in under the front door? I've successfully installed one of those using No More Nails sticky pads, because that just seemed *so much easier* than messing about with drills and screws and precise measurements half an inch off the uneven hall floor. Hey presto, no more woodlice. I realise that's a UK product and you're probably elsewhere in the world, but maybe there's a local equivalent.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is a door sweep one of those long flat brush things that keeps draughts and woodlice - and mice - from coming in under the front door? I've successfully installed one of those using No More Nails sticky pads, because that just seemed *so much easier* than messing about with drills and screws and precise measurements half an inch off the uneven hall floor. Hey presto, no more woodlice. I realise that's a UK product and you're probably elsewhere in the world, but maybe there's a local equivalent.
posted by ManyLeggedCreature at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
did you go on the internet about this? oh man, the first rule of having a problem is NEVER GOOGLE YOUR PROBLEM. This goes double or even treble if you are prone to anxiety.
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes? (btw I like to keep most things out in open shelves so I can see and find them, this is hard for me)
No! Not reasonable! None of this is reasonable given the situation you have described!
Here's the thing. In a situation where mice have somehow touched everything in your apartment, every single day... you would see them. You would be dealing with a full-overrun situation. Since you don't live in an abandoned building, basically, this thing is not going to happen to you. Especially not in the two months left before you move.
Things you should do:
-Wash your cooking and eating surfaces regularly before you use them
-Store your food in the fridge or in tupperware thingies just to make your place unappealing. No, the mice will not get into your fridge (or your stove).
-Block the opening under your door. If you can't install the whatsit, just use one of those draft blockers, man.
-Ask the cafe owners to call an exterminator. Odds are they do this regularly anyway, but maybe they have to step up their schedule.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes? (btw I like to keep most things out in open shelves so I can see and find them, this is hard for me)
No! Not reasonable! None of this is reasonable given the situation you have described!
Here's the thing. In a situation where mice have somehow touched everything in your apartment, every single day... you would see them. You would be dealing with a full-overrun situation. Since you don't live in an abandoned building, basically, this thing is not going to happen to you. Especially not in the two months left before you move.
Things you should do:
-Wash your cooking and eating surfaces regularly before you use them
-Store your food in the fridge or in tupperware thingies just to make your place unappealing. No, the mice will not get into your fridge (or your stove).
-Block the opening under your door. If you can't install the whatsit, just use one of those draft blockers, man.
-Ask the cafe owners to call an exterminator. Odds are they do this regularly anyway, but maybe they have to step up their schedule.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:53 AM on July 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Response by poster: last question
Keep washing and bleaching everything.
how often? (& what is "everything")
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:33 AM on July 27, 2016
Keep washing and bleaching everything.
how often? (& what is "everything")
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:33 AM on July 27, 2016
Best answer: If you don't see droppings or other signs (chew marks on food containers), you generally don't have a rodent problem.
Exactly. I have always lived in houses with mice, it's just a fact of country living most of the time. The deal I try to keep with the mice is that they stay in the walls and mostly out of the house and I will not murder their babies. We are at a detente most of the time but occasionally I'll find a small nest or droppings. A few facts that might be helpful.
- mice can get through dime sized holes, rats can not.
- any hole a mouse can get through that you can see, you can plug up with steel wool. They don't like to fuss with this
- mice are basically incontinent so if you do not see droppings, they are not there
- put something else under the door
- most mice do not carry disease
- yes they can get into your oven, usually through the vent hole that is beneath one of the burners (if you have electric). Plug this up and do not use that burner. Check the back of the stove for entry points. They can't get into the fridge, period. Keep as much food as you can in there.
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes?
Saying this with love: no, not reasonable. You sound like me before I got my anxiety (mostly) under control. Mice will generally not be out during the daytime (they are not sneaking on to your things when you leave a room) and they are usually active at night looking for: food, water, nesting places. Try to make your place inhospitable to them, plug holes and, for your own peace of mind, try to get out of the house more and work on your anxiety (better rest, less caffeine, more exercise) or just call it a wash and move out early otherwise. You can't live like this.
posted by jessamyn at 9:35 AM on July 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Exactly. I have always lived in houses with mice, it's just a fact of country living most of the time. The deal I try to keep with the mice is that they stay in the walls and mostly out of the house and I will not murder their babies. We are at a detente most of the time but occasionally I'll find a small nest or droppings. A few facts that might be helpful.
- mice can get through dime sized holes, rats can not.
- any hole a mouse can get through that you can see, you can plug up with steel wool. They don't like to fuss with this
- mice are basically incontinent so if you do not see droppings, they are not there
- put something else under the door
- most mice do not carry disease
- yes they can get into your oven, usually through the vent hole that is beneath one of the burners (if you have electric). Plug this up and do not use that burner. Check the back of the stove for entry points. They can't get into the fridge, period. Keep as much food as you can in there.
Reasonable to eat over the sink until I move? To never walk away from a plate or cup? To never fail to remember put my toothbrush away? To hide my brushes and personal grooming items in sealed boxes?
Saying this with love: no, not reasonable. You sound like me before I got my anxiety (mostly) under control. Mice will generally not be out during the daytime (they are not sneaking on to your things when you leave a room) and they are usually active at night looking for: food, water, nesting places. Try to make your place inhospitable to them, plug holes and, for your own peace of mind, try to get out of the house more and work on your anxiety (better rest, less caffeine, more exercise) or just call it a wash and move out early otherwise. You can't live like this.
posted by jessamyn at 9:35 AM on July 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
For the rats/mice:
I agree with others that you should:
* Store your food in the fridge (they can't get in there) or in tupperware containers. I also like plastic ziploc bags for things like open boxes of cereal because it's super easy to see if there's a big, ragged, obviously-nibbled hole in it and then just toss the whole bag.
* Make a habit to wash your cutting boards, plates, and utensils (anything that touches food) before you use it. (On preview, this constitutes "everything" and you should do it every time before it touches food for the first time it touches food that use. I.e., don't wash the fork between bites of food, even if you walk away briefly, but do wash it before the first bite of food. Soap and water without bleach is just fine for this kind of daily use stuff.)
* Wash your hands before you cook or eat (you probably do that anyway).
I agree with others that you should not:
* Wash things that don't come into contact with food (except as you normally would). My sanity-saving rule when we had rodents was that I didn't have to wash anything in the kitchen that wouldn't touch food. I don't put food directly on the countertop anyway, so I didn't bother washing that (except as I would regularly) - I just washed the cutting board I was going to put on top of the counter.
* Worry about rodents in your bedding. Unless you're eating there (doesn't sound like it), they won't be there.
* Worry about your sponge being out. My rule is "soap washes soap," i.e., the soap and warm water I'm going to put on the sponge to wash the dishes will also wash the sponge. There's no need to protect the sponge or wash the sponge with its own soap, etc. (The rule came from a not-fun time in my life when I would literally wash the soap dispensers and the bar soap with more soap before using them.)
In general:
I have OCD. For awhile, it was untreated, uncontrolled, and utterly miserable (see soap example above). With gentleness and respect, your level of concern here reminds me of that time in my life.
The really annoying thing about OCD is that, in the moment, everything you're doing seems totally rational, and not only that but VITAL, for protecting your safety and that of those around you. It's generally not, no matter what public safety officials (whose job is to try to convince people on the other side of the spectrum who are way too lax about safety that things are scary and they should be scared and therefore be less lax) say.
If this is a pattern with you, or you consistently have dry/red/cracked hands from washing them, or you've had moments where you cry in frustration because you just can't keep everything clean enough, you might consider talking to your GP.
Life is like eight million times happier and better (and no more dangerous or sickly or anything) since I've been treated.
posted by bananacabana at 9:41 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I agree with others that you should:
* Store your food in the fridge (they can't get in there) or in tupperware containers. I also like plastic ziploc bags for things like open boxes of cereal because it's super easy to see if there's a big, ragged, obviously-nibbled hole in it and then just toss the whole bag.
* Make a habit to wash your cutting boards, plates, and utensils (anything that touches food) before you use it. (On preview, this constitutes "everything" and you should do it every time before it touches food for the first time it touches food that use. I.e., don't wash the fork between bites of food, even if you walk away briefly, but do wash it before the first bite of food. Soap and water without bleach is just fine for this kind of daily use stuff.)
* Wash your hands before you cook or eat (you probably do that anyway).
I agree with others that you should not:
* Wash things that don't come into contact with food (except as you normally would). My sanity-saving rule when we had rodents was that I didn't have to wash anything in the kitchen that wouldn't touch food. I don't put food directly on the countertop anyway, so I didn't bother washing that (except as I would regularly) - I just washed the cutting board I was going to put on top of the counter.
* Worry about rodents in your bedding. Unless you're eating there (doesn't sound like it), they won't be there.
* Worry about your sponge being out. My rule is "soap washes soap," i.e., the soap and warm water I'm going to put on the sponge to wash the dishes will also wash the sponge. There's no need to protect the sponge or wash the sponge with its own soap, etc. (The rule came from a not-fun time in my life when I would literally wash the soap dispensers and the bar soap with more soap before using them.)
In general:
I have OCD. For awhile, it was untreated, uncontrolled, and utterly miserable (see soap example above). With gentleness and respect, your level of concern here reminds me of that time in my life.
The really annoying thing about OCD is that, in the moment, everything you're doing seems totally rational, and not only that but VITAL, for protecting your safety and that of those around you. It's generally not, no matter what public safety officials (whose job is to try to convince people on the other side of the spectrum who are way too lax about safety that things are scary and they should be scared and therefore be less lax) say.
If this is a pattern with you, or you consistently have dry/red/cracked hands from washing them, or you've had moments where you cry in frustration because you just can't keep everything clean enough, you might consider talking to your GP.
Life is like eight million times happier and better (and no more dangerous or sickly or anything) since I've been treated.
posted by bananacabana at 9:41 AM on July 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
LL wouldn't spring for an exterminator
Well, don't ask him, of course he'll say no. Ask the local tenant's rights group if he's obligated to. Go to the public health department and see what they say. This might be a violation of city code. If it were bedbugs, he certainly could not refuse.
posted by AFABulous at 9:43 AM on July 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, don't ask him, of course he'll say no. Ask the local tenant's rights group if he's obligated to. Go to the public health department and see what they say. This might be a violation of city code. If it were bedbugs, he certainly could not refuse.
posted by AFABulous at 9:43 AM on July 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I empathize, because the first time I had mice in my apartment, I almost exploded with anxiety. I had what I called a "mad scientist" routine of checking for holes, looking for evidence, and setting traps with peanut butter. It was exhausting.
I've had to deal with them a couple of times since then, and am much less anxious about it now. If I saw a mouse today, I would:
- clean everything in the house thoroughly and look for droppings to try to find holes that need to be plugged
- be very careful with food storage and food trash--all food-related garbage and containers would go right down the trash chute so there was nothing out in the apartment
- wash dirty dishes and pans right away
- set some basic snap traps with peanut butter (I used to be afraid of these but got over it because of the cost factor)
- remind myself that they *are* sort of a part of city life (pretty much everyone I know has had to deal with them), that they usually get stirred up by something like construction nearby, and that keeping a clean apartment is the best defense because they aren't looking for *you* they are looking for food
I'm sorry you are dealing with this. They're gross and I felt really violated when I had them. But if you don't see actual evidence (droppings, bite marks, or seeing one), they may have moved on.
posted by trixie119 at 9:46 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've had to deal with them a couple of times since then, and am much less anxious about it now. If I saw a mouse today, I would:
- clean everything in the house thoroughly and look for droppings to try to find holes that need to be plugged
- be very careful with food storage and food trash--all food-related garbage and containers would go right down the trash chute so there was nothing out in the apartment
- wash dirty dishes and pans right away
- set some basic snap traps with peanut butter (I used to be afraid of these but got over it because of the cost factor)
- remind myself that they *are* sort of a part of city life (pretty much everyone I know has had to deal with them), that they usually get stirred up by something like construction nearby, and that keeping a clean apartment is the best defense because they aren't looking for *you* they are looking for food
I'm sorry you are dealing with this. They're gross and I felt really violated when I had them. But if you don't see actual evidence (droppings, bite marks, or seeing one), they may have moved on.
posted by trixie119 at 9:46 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Guys. Thank you for your concern about my mental health. It is appreciated.
I would just like to note that I would not be freaking out this much if I didn't live in one room, without any kind of physical - or psychological - separation or respite from the kitchen or front door, etc.
The animal that died yesterday died a foot from my bed - during the day: the trap has lights that blink green when there's a thing in there. Very noticeable from anywhere in the room (especially to me, lately - my peripheral awareness has heightened somewhat since this experience*. ). I went into the shower - at midday - and came out to see the lights blinking. When I removed the body, it was completely limp (with an ambient temperature of 24 degrees C), so I have to conclude it was a fresh-ish death. The tail was ~6 inches long. There is a known rat problem in my city. So, odds seem good it was a rat.
Which would mean - thank you, Jessamyn! - that I do not have to worry about dime-sized holes, as much as I would for mice. It might mean they are grosser than the alternative.
*There was also a blow fly visitation for a few days a couple of weeks ago, which has been controlled. I assume because of another death. There was one fly one day, 50 the next. I killed 20 within an hour.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:58 AM on July 27, 2016
I would just like to note that I would not be freaking out this much if I didn't live in one room, without any kind of physical - or psychological - separation or respite from the kitchen or front door, etc.
The animal that died yesterday died a foot from my bed - during the day: the trap has lights that blink green when there's a thing in there. Very noticeable from anywhere in the room (especially to me, lately - my peripheral awareness has heightened somewhat since this experience*. ). I went into the shower - at midday - and came out to see the lights blinking. When I removed the body, it was completely limp (with an ambient temperature of 24 degrees C), so I have to conclude it was a fresh-ish death. The tail was ~6 inches long. There is a known rat problem in my city. So, odds seem good it was a rat.
Which would mean - thank you, Jessamyn! - that I do not have to worry about dime-sized holes, as much as I would for mice. It might mean they are grosser than the alternative.
*There was also a blow fly visitation for a few days a couple of weeks ago, which has been controlled. I assume because of another death. There was one fly one day, 50 the next. I killed 20 within an hour.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:58 AM on July 27, 2016
We had a giant rat problem last year.
I didn't go in our basement for maybe two months. They never came into our active living space, but they were under the porch, in the basement, and all around the driveway. It was so awful.
I talked to my city councilor. She contacted our city's health department. They baited the storm drains in our area and just like that, the rats were gone.
Our landlords came over and shored up all the possible entrances and handled the few that were left in our basement. We would have pushed for an exterminator if all of these other things hadn't worked because rats.
So, just putting this out there because you don't have to do it alone.
posted by zizzle at 10:23 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I didn't go in our basement for maybe two months. They never came into our active living space, but they were under the porch, in the basement, and all around the driveway. It was so awful.
I talked to my city councilor. She contacted our city's health department. They baited the storm drains in our area and just like that, the rats were gone.
Our landlords came over and shored up all the possible entrances and handled the few that were left in our basement. We would have pushed for an exterminator if all of these other things hadn't worked because rats.
So, just putting this out there because you don't have to do it alone.
posted by zizzle at 10:23 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: When I had rats, they came in through a hole in the wall behind the stove that was pretty obvious once I found it. The good news is that if you have a small space there is probably a pretty obvious place they are coming in but it may be obscured with furniture/appliances/cabinets. I'd check the back of cabinets, particularly ones under sinks or around pipes coming into the house (heat, hot water, regular water, laundry facilities) and jam as much steel wool in there are you can. I used steel wool and peppermint oil because what the heck? Mice and rats do look different and mice have little mini poops that are like sesame seeds and rats have more football shaped poops that are more sunflower seed sized. Mice are seen as a fact of liufe much more than rats which are often seen as a vermin issue so consider contacting relevant boards of health just for a reality check from them.
posted by jessamyn at 10:34 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by jessamyn at 10:34 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Oh, God, I'm sorry, this sucks. You're not going to get the hantavirus, though. I suggest you read A Walk in the Woods. It should be comforting because Bryson and Katz spend night after night in rodent-infested shelters along the AT and they don't die. Maybe keep a basic set of dishes and flatware in the fridge so you don't have to re-wash them all the time? (No, they can't get into the fridge.) I keep my toothbrush in a cup in the medicine cabinet so that (I can pretend) it's not being crawled on by roaches nightly. This would actually work in the case of rats, who'd have no reason to go spelunking in the medicine cabinet. Or you could get one of those "sterilizes your toothbrush with light!" thingies. I should probably do that.
Please, for the love of god, please put black electrical tape over those blinky green lights and just check the trap once a day. I can't even sleep if the laptop light is glowing steadily in a corner of the room. If a light came on randomly and I knew it was because of RAT DEATH, I would go straight out of my mind.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:10 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please, for the love of god, please put black electrical tape over those blinky green lights and just check the trap once a day. I can't even sleep if the laptop light is glowing steadily in a corner of the room. If a light came on randomly and I knew it was because of RAT DEATH, I would go straight out of my mind.
posted by Don Pepino at 11:10 AM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh gosh, I know you marked this answered, but I am so sorry you're going through this. We had an intractable cockroach problem at our last place and the stress of it (rather than any infectious disease) was really affecting my health by the time we finally moved.
More helpfully, I really second whoever said to check with your local tenant advocate, whether that's a tenant union or a jurisdictional tenant-landlord department. SOMEONE is responsible for enforcing tenant-landlord code, and in my state and many others, landlords are required to handle vermin, including rodents. You'd be amazed how many crummy landlords get their asses in gear after getting a serious and official letter or phone call from the city on the matter.
posted by bowtiesarecool at 11:40 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
More helpfully, I really second whoever said to check with your local tenant advocate, whether that's a tenant union or a jurisdictional tenant-landlord department. SOMEONE is responsible for enforcing tenant-landlord code, and in my state and many others, landlords are required to handle vermin, including rodents. You'd be amazed how many crummy landlords get their asses in gear after getting a serious and official letter or phone call from the city on the matter.
posted by bowtiesarecool at 11:40 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
It does seem that what you are dealing with are rats. I understand your pain - I've tried it twice.
Where I live, one has a duty to report rat-infestations to the municipality, and they deal with it. Maybe they send the bill to the landlord, and that is why your landlord is not responsive, but I would go to the authorities if I were you.
posted by mumimor at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where I live, one has a duty to report rat-infestations to the municipality, and they deal with it. Maybe they send the bill to the landlord, and that is why your landlord is not responsive, but I would go to the authorities if I were you.
posted by mumimor at 12:14 PM on July 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Dumb question... can anyone point me to a step-by-step guide to checking around pipes and ventilation systems and things? I found this:
- Seal holes along exterior walls (as small as a dime for mice, a quarter for rats) - I can’t do this
- Cover vents with screens - I can do this, with the fireplace as well
- Seal or caulk pipes - no idea how to do this or even really what to look for, exactly :/
- Use traps and monitor frequently - Check. And thank you, Don Pepino, I will cover the lights - *excellent* idea.
If I do find another rodent, I guess I will have to take a breath and look at its nose and everything more closely. (Will also bear distinctions in mind for any poops I do come across.)
I’m a little loathe to go legal on my LL.. he’s not a bad guy at all. This place was spotless when I moved in - had freshly installed kitchen and bathroom, and I’ve had no issues the whole time I’ve lived here. LL responds to requests within hours. Dealing with rodents is his legal responsibility here, and I mean he does live in the building, as well, plus it's his - I think he just thinks the traps are enough. (If it were my place, I’d be worried about the wiring, for example, but I guess he’s not.)
(btw my question as phrased is not a direct quote of my lizard brain, it’s from this)
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2016
- Seal holes along exterior walls (as small as a dime for mice, a quarter for rats) - I can’t do this
- Cover vents with screens - I can do this, with the fireplace as well
- Seal or caulk pipes - no idea how to do this or even really what to look for, exactly :/
- Use traps and monitor frequently - Check. And thank you, Don Pepino, I will cover the lights - *excellent* idea.
If I do find another rodent, I guess I will have to take a breath and look at its nose and everything more closely. (Will also bear distinctions in mind for any poops I do come across.)
I’m a little loathe to go legal on my LL.. he’s not a bad guy at all. This place was spotless when I moved in - had freshly installed kitchen and bathroom, and I’ve had no issues the whole time I’ve lived here. LL responds to requests within hours. Dealing with rodents is his legal responsibility here, and I mean he does live in the building, as well, plus it's his - I think he just thinks the traps are enough. (If it were my place, I’d be worried about the wiring, for example, but I guess he’s not.)
(btw my question as phrased is not a direct quote of my lizard brain, it’s from this)
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:39 PM on July 27, 2016
Best answer: Yikes, I suddenly realize I've done this three times, not twice :-(
First of all, rats are actually lazy about getting in to your home. They can get through tiny holes but they don't really bother unless the population is huge, and then it is a public problem. If you scream at them or kill them, they (and their family) back out.
So if you can go round all your walls and check if there are holes, that's a good beginning. If there are holes, you can either engage your landlord or with the city, or just glue a wooden or plastic coaster over the hole.
Yes, cover all vents with screens.
You seal pipes with silicone, which you buy at a hardware store, where you also get directions.
That said, your situation does seem a bit extreme, and at least you should go back to your landlord and try to engage them in doing something, for the sake of the general public. It may be a sewer near your house that is undone, or something worse, all unrelated to your specific house.
About mice: your rodents do not seem to be mice, but if they are mice, you can relax a bit. I hate mice, but they are not dangerous in the way rats are. I have encountered rats in the city, as I said, in three different homes. In our family farm, we have lived with mice for decades, and during the last couple of years I have finally gotten rid of most of them. With mice, it was a question of zealous policing of all entrances and walls, and then poison in strategic places. I have never found any traces of mice in properly closed cupboards or drawers even when they where everywhere else. They don't go there. I have found traces of mice on my kitchen counters and on open shelves at all heights, so I clean everything like it was 1950 everywhere, and every foodstuff goes into glass or ceramic containers. I am unapologetic about using the poison, but you need to think about where to place it so it isn't touched by kids or pets.
posted by mumimor at 3:54 PM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
First of all, rats are actually lazy about getting in to your home. They can get through tiny holes but they don't really bother unless the population is huge, and then it is a public problem. If you scream at them or kill them, they (and their family) back out.
So if you can go round all your walls and check if there are holes, that's a good beginning. If there are holes, you can either engage your landlord or with the city, or just glue a wooden or plastic coaster over the hole.
Yes, cover all vents with screens.
You seal pipes with silicone, which you buy at a hardware store, where you also get directions.
That said, your situation does seem a bit extreme, and at least you should go back to your landlord and try to engage them in doing something, for the sake of the general public. It may be a sewer near your house that is undone, or something worse, all unrelated to your specific house.
About mice: your rodents do not seem to be mice, but if they are mice, you can relax a bit. I hate mice, but they are not dangerous in the way rats are. I have encountered rats in the city, as I said, in three different homes. In our family farm, we have lived with mice for decades, and during the last couple of years I have finally gotten rid of most of them. With mice, it was a question of zealous policing of all entrances and walls, and then poison in strategic places. I have never found any traces of mice in properly closed cupboards or drawers even when they where everywhere else. They don't go there. I have found traces of mice on my kitchen counters and on open shelves at all heights, so I clean everything like it was 1950 everywhere, and every foodstuff goes into glass or ceramic containers. I am unapologetic about using the poison, but you need to think about where to place it so it isn't touched by kids or pets.
posted by mumimor at 3:54 PM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by bibliophilia at 8:00 AM on July 27, 2016 [2 favorites]