Finding Love After (Big) Loss?
July 15, 2016 3:02 PM Subscribe
I am a widow and my boyfriend had a very painful and messy divorce 5 years ago. We got together a year ago (right after my husband died) and it has been so amazing. From the moment we laid eyes on each other we connected and have been together almost constantly--first just once a week and now about 4 days a week, and we have vacationed together several times as well. But there is trouble in paradise...
what I mean is, he was deeply hurt in his divorce and in fact I am really the first woman he has seriously dated since his divorce. I had a wonderful marriage but lived thru a horrible end of life with my dear husband (long story but terminally ill for 9 years ) and he is the first person I have been with as well. We met fireworks ensued and a year passes. I have fallen in love with this man, and told him so in April. His response was not what I wanted--he felt that though he loved everything about me he could not be in love with me or anyone ever again because of what he went thru. What!? I took a break from him for 3 weeks and went on a trip with a friend (planned in advance of this revelation) to think things over and when I got back I decided that what we had was too great to throw away so I would take what I could get from him and hope to get more in the future. Since then everything has been great--and he even said that he loved me...once...by accident. And he said he was working on opening up.
So here we are a couple months later, I am so in love and he is not and my heart hurts because it feels rejected, but I am so ridiculously happy being with him and in our relationship. Yes, he is loving and kind, sweet, thoughtful, generous, sexy, fun...everything I could ever want. but because he has said he doesn't believe he can really be in love and he doesn't verbalize his feeling to me I feel like he is play acting with me...he wants someone in his life and he wants to "play house" but without the emotional attachment that entails. I on the other hand want to find the happiness and deep love that I had in my first marriage again. I want to have a partner who loves me deeply and completely. I want to be married again. By the way, we are both in our 50s so not new to relationships and love obviously.
I am really torn and don't know what to do. I don't want to just stay with him and HOPE that he will fall in love with me or realizes that he is in love with me already. (My kids and my friends think he is based on what they see) I am a wonderful person and I deserve a full and loving relationship, and I don't want to waste time chasing after someone not able to give that to me. I sorta believe that it doesn't take a year or more to figure out if you are in love with someone--I think you know that pretty quick. and I think if you love someone you can't hold that in--you want to shout it out all the time. it may take longer than that to know if they are the one you want to wake up with every day for the rest of your life, but geesh, he is making it so hard on me. I hate that he holds back and that makes me do it too.
Should I pull back from the relationship? If so, should I tell him why? Should I break up completely with him? Should I give him an ultimatum "go all in with me or let me go"? Should I just let things play out for longer? Am I rushing things or am I babying him too much?
If he plans on sticking by the "I'll never love again" then I am spinning my wheels and can not find the love and happiness I want by staying with him. I am leaning towards the ultimatum--telling him exactly where it is coming from and then putting the ball in his court. he HAS to make a move then.
thanks for your input on this!
what I mean is, he was deeply hurt in his divorce and in fact I am really the first woman he has seriously dated since his divorce. I had a wonderful marriage but lived thru a horrible end of life with my dear husband (long story but terminally ill for 9 years ) and he is the first person I have been with as well. We met fireworks ensued and a year passes. I have fallen in love with this man, and told him so in April. His response was not what I wanted--he felt that though he loved everything about me he could not be in love with me or anyone ever again because of what he went thru. What!? I took a break from him for 3 weeks and went on a trip with a friend (planned in advance of this revelation) to think things over and when I got back I decided that what we had was too great to throw away so I would take what I could get from him and hope to get more in the future. Since then everything has been great--and he even said that he loved me...once...by accident. And he said he was working on opening up.
So here we are a couple months later, I am so in love and he is not and my heart hurts because it feels rejected, but I am so ridiculously happy being with him and in our relationship. Yes, he is loving and kind, sweet, thoughtful, generous, sexy, fun...everything I could ever want. but because he has said he doesn't believe he can really be in love and he doesn't verbalize his feeling to me I feel like he is play acting with me...he wants someone in his life and he wants to "play house" but without the emotional attachment that entails. I on the other hand want to find the happiness and deep love that I had in my first marriage again. I want to have a partner who loves me deeply and completely. I want to be married again. By the way, we are both in our 50s so not new to relationships and love obviously.
I am really torn and don't know what to do. I don't want to just stay with him and HOPE that he will fall in love with me or realizes that he is in love with me already. (My kids and my friends think he is based on what they see) I am a wonderful person and I deserve a full and loving relationship, and I don't want to waste time chasing after someone not able to give that to me. I sorta believe that it doesn't take a year or more to figure out if you are in love with someone--I think you know that pretty quick. and I think if you love someone you can't hold that in--you want to shout it out all the time. it may take longer than that to know if they are the one you want to wake up with every day for the rest of your life, but geesh, he is making it so hard on me. I hate that he holds back and that makes me do it too.
Should I pull back from the relationship? If so, should I tell him why? Should I break up completely with him? Should I give him an ultimatum "go all in with me or let me go"? Should I just let things play out for longer? Am I rushing things or am I babying him too much?
If he plans on sticking by the "I'll never love again" then I am spinning my wheels and can not find the love and happiness I want by staying with him. I am leaning towards the ultimatum--telling him exactly where it is coming from and then putting the ball in his court. he HAS to make a move then.
thanks for your input on this!
Telling your long term partner that you will never love them is cruel, and it's a wierd power thing too - forcing you to accept his (shitty, evil) terms. The ultimatum has already been issued, but there's no statute of limitations on it.
I don't mean to be flip or brusque, but that was a garbage thing to say and he is a creepy and manipulative person, if it went down the way you said.
posted by ftm at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2016 [47 favorites]
I don't mean to be flip or brusque, but that was a garbage thing to say and he is a creepy and manipulative person, if it went down the way you said.
posted by ftm at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2016 [47 favorites]
He's told you clearly who he is and what he's capable of giving you. Believe him.
If you want something more than he can provide, it's time to move on and look for someone who can meet your needs.
posted by jesourie at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2016 [25 favorites]
If you want something more than he can provide, it's time to move on and look for someone who can meet your needs.
posted by jesourie at 3:09 PM on July 15, 2016 [25 favorites]
What people do and what people say often clash. Does he treat you well? Do you feel safe and loved in his presence? Do you have fun with him? Do you enjoy hot sexy times with him? If everything is going well except that he is unwilling to say he loves you, if he truly is "loving and kind, sweet, thoughtful, generous, sexy, fun", then I, personally, would give it more time. Maybe he will come around. Maybe he won't. A year isn't that long to get to truly know someone. Perhaps there are additional things you should know about him through experience before you head off to the altar. If this truly is a deal-breaker, then naturally you should walk away. But what's the rush? You'll still both plenty young.
posted by Bella Donna at 3:11 PM on July 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 3:11 PM on July 15, 2016 [10 favorites]
I know someone in the same difficult position, right down to the husband who spent years with a fatal illness, and so far she's sticking with the guy even though he won't give her the commitment she wants and feels she deserves. She's frank about the fact that she's trading a possible better future for a present that gives her a lot of pleasure, and I can't say she's wrong. I know this doesn't directly help you, but maybe it's useful to know what someone else has decided (so far). I wish you the very best of luck no matter what you decide.
posted by languagehat at 3:15 PM on July 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by languagehat at 3:15 PM on July 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think he's a bad person, but he's clearly still hurting. If his actions towards you show love, I would stick it out provided that he start therapy. I don't think it's fair to say he needs to stop brooding over a divorce five years ago, especially if it was emotional painful. I mean, I'm still feeling lingering effects from an abusive relationship I was in almost twenty years ago. But therapy therapy therapy.
posted by Ruki at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 3:17 PM on July 15, 2016 [7 favorites]
No ultimatums please, that is not a constructive path here. He is who he is, he may change, or not. If he is not giving you what you want, YOU make a choice. You can stay, and maybe he will change, but if he doesn't how will you know that you have given him enough time.
The other factor is you. You say you started this relationship immediately after your husband died - did you give yourself time to properly grieve your loss of him? Rushing (if that is what happened) into a new relationship is not something that helps that grieving process, it actually hinders it.
posted by GeeEmm at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
The other factor is you. You say you started this relationship immediately after your husband died - did you give yourself time to properly grieve your loss of him? Rushing (if that is what happened) into a new relationship is not something that helps that grieving process, it actually hinders it.
posted by GeeEmm at 3:21 PM on July 15, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: Ultimatums - as in issuing an edict to make him do what you want - are no good, but boundaries are great. Communicate exactly what you're feeling, give him an opportunity to respond thoughtfully. If he can't meet you where you need him to, you have to remove yourself from the situation.
He's not a bad person, but relationships are successful based on time and place, and it sounds like his place is good but time is not. He gets to be where he is in his process, like it or hate it, and you have to accept it. That probably means walking away, in this case.
I would suggest you meditate on the idea of being "so in love" with someone who does not return your feelings. My personal philosophy is that love is a dialogue, and it can only rise as high as the lowest tide. You may be prepared to completely give yourself to this relationship, but you can't actually do so if you're not being met at that level.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:38 PM on July 15, 2016 [36 favorites]
He's not a bad person, but relationships are successful based on time and place, and it sounds like his place is good but time is not. He gets to be where he is in his process, like it or hate it, and you have to accept it. That probably means walking away, in this case.
I would suggest you meditate on the idea of being "so in love" with someone who does not return your feelings. My personal philosophy is that love is a dialogue, and it can only rise as high as the lowest tide. You may be prepared to completely give yourself to this relationship, but you can't actually do so if you're not being met at that level.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:38 PM on July 15, 2016 [36 favorites]
Give yourself an ultimatum: a time limit (a month? a year? however long you think you need and deserve) for how long you can table this issue. That puts the solution entirely on you and your strength.
posted by Dashy at 4:16 PM on July 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Dashy at 4:16 PM on July 15, 2016 [5 favorites]
he felt that though he loved everything about me he could not be in love with me or anyone ever again because of what he went thru
I heard this from a guy that it turns out had no intention of having a relationship with me, but I bet he will with the right woman at the right time. Who knows?
I am a wonderful person and I deserve a full and loving relationship, and I don't want to waste time chasing after someone not able to give that to me
This right here. So true. And no internet stranger would know for sure if this guy would be able to give you what you want and need, but it seems as though some red flags might be there to consider. You deserve an awesome man in your life.
posted by strelitzia at 4:26 PM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
I heard this from a guy that it turns out had no intention of having a relationship with me, but I bet he will with the right woman at the right time. Who knows?
I am a wonderful person and I deserve a full and loving relationship, and I don't want to waste time chasing after someone not able to give that to me
This right here. So true. And no internet stranger would know for sure if this guy would be able to give you what you want and need, but it seems as though some red flags might be there to consider. You deserve an awesome man in your life.
posted by strelitzia at 4:26 PM on July 15, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was going to say therapy, but it looks like someone did. I think a few sessions of couples therapy would be a good idea though.
posted by Slinga at 5:28 PM on July 15, 2016
posted by Slinga at 5:28 PM on July 15, 2016
I also think telling you he will never love again was utterly cruel and manipulative. He said this with enough life experience to know how shitty it is.
He's a garbage person play acting and I think you should dump him without much conversation. After all, he already said it all and set the terms, didn't he?
You can do better than the scraps this guy is offering.
posted by jbenben at 6:13 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
He's a garbage person play acting and I think you should dump him without much conversation. After all, he already said it all and set the terms, didn't he?
You can do better than the scraps this guy is offering.
posted by jbenben at 6:13 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's hard to tell from your narrative whether you have told your boyfriend of your hopes for marriage and happily ever after; if not then your planned ultimatum should include that so he can make an informed decision.
My partner and I are also in our 50s and have been together for a year. I am mad about him, we are in sync in 100 ways, we moved in together before this first year was up, and I have no intention of ever leaving or changing what we have. It's amazing - he is amazing - and I am grateful for everything he has brought to my life.
But I am wounded, and my wounds have scars and callouses over them, and I don't want to marry again. If my partner expected me to stop tending those wounds because of some timetable he was on (one year?!) and gave me an ultimatum expecting my description of my feelings for to match his vocabulary, I would tell him to reset his expectations or get used to disappointment.
Your boyfriend has been straightforward with you. If you stay with him, do so in acceptance of who he is and how he treats you. Don't do it with the expectation that he will come 'round to your way of thinking. His way of thinking is just as valid. He is not your late husband and your love will necessarily be different with every future partner than your love was with him. To expect the same does a disservice to everyone.
I am happy for you that you had a great love the first time around. Your boyfriend didn't. See this time around as a new and different story than either of you have lived yet, and let it be good/bad in its own way too.
posted by headnsouth at 7:08 PM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
My partner and I are also in our 50s and have been together for a year. I am mad about him, we are in sync in 100 ways, we moved in together before this first year was up, and I have no intention of ever leaving or changing what we have. It's amazing - he is amazing - and I am grateful for everything he has brought to my life.
But I am wounded, and my wounds have scars and callouses over them, and I don't want to marry again. If my partner expected me to stop tending those wounds because of some timetable he was on (one year?!) and gave me an ultimatum expecting my description of my feelings for to match his vocabulary, I would tell him to reset his expectations or get used to disappointment.
Your boyfriend has been straightforward with you. If you stay with him, do so in acceptance of who he is and how he treats you. Don't do it with the expectation that he will come 'round to your way of thinking. His way of thinking is just as valid. He is not your late husband and your love will necessarily be different with every future partner than your love was with him. To expect the same does a disservice to everyone.
I am happy for you that you had a great love the first time around. Your boyfriend didn't. See this time around as a new and different story than either of you have lived yet, and let it be good/bad in its own way too.
posted by headnsouth at 7:08 PM on July 15, 2016 [15 favorites]
If you had a real, true love in your marriage, what are the chances that the VERY next person you date is the man you're meant to spend the rest of your life with? Not high, and especially not high when he's told you that he doesn't love you. Dump him and take a bit of time to just be.
posted by MsMolly at 7:38 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MsMolly at 7:38 PM on July 15, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree with headnsouth. This is two different experiences rubbing up in eachother. If you've never been deeply hurt by someone you deeply loved you might not understand what is driving his position - it's not rational and it's also not wantonly cruel - it's about protection.
The biggest regret I have about the relationship that hurt me is that it felt like the end of an innocence that allowed to love so deeply in the first place. A light was extinguished and, although I can still feel love - and joy - very strongly, but it's less focused, more diffuse. I lost the ability to put all my eggs in one basket, so to speak. It will never be as open and trusting as it once was, it can't be, because I know the flip side now. It took a long, long time to heal and I'll probably always have an emotional limp - that's just how it is.
Basically, all you can do is manage your own feelings. If you want to be with him you'll have to accept what he's telling you. If you need starry eyes and open hearts you may be better off pursuing someone else.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:48 PM on July 15, 2016 [12 favorites]
The biggest regret I have about the relationship that hurt me is that it felt like the end of an innocence that allowed to love so deeply in the first place. A light was extinguished and, although I can still feel love - and joy - very strongly, but it's less focused, more diffuse. I lost the ability to put all my eggs in one basket, so to speak. It will never be as open and trusting as it once was, it can't be, because I know the flip side now. It took a long, long time to heal and I'll probably always have an emotional limp - that's just how it is.
Basically, all you can do is manage your own feelings. If you want to be with him you'll have to accept what he's telling you. If you need starry eyes and open hearts you may be better off pursuing someone else.
posted by freya_lamb at 7:48 PM on July 15, 2016 [12 favorites]
The Official AskMe Human Relations Motto should be "when someone tells you something about themselves, believe them." This man is saying he does. not. love. you. Sure, he likes having you around and thinks you're fun and that you make life easier for him. But he does not love you.
The only way I would stay with him at this point would be if him feeling this way bothers *him*. And if it was something that he would like to change by working on his issues and healing. Not for the sole reason of being able to love you in particular (or in response to an ultimatum) but for the reason of becoming a whole person who can give and receive love fully. Do you really want to be with someone who you have to threaten and cajole in order to get them to say they love you?
My ex said the same thing to me early in our relationship. We were married for almost 20 years and he said he loved me maybe 4 or 5 times. And I know now that it wasn't the kind of thing where he was thinking, "wow, I really love her, but I just can't say it out loud". When he told me that he'd never be able to truly love someone again it was the truth.
What I know now is that the next time I'm in a relationship with someone, it will need to be with someone who already wants what I want, before they've even met me. In other words, if I wanted to get married again, I would only be with someone who knows that they want to get married someday. Not someone who kind of doesn't want to be but will do it if I beg them enough.
And finally, this: I hate that he holds back and that makes me do it too. For me, this was truly one of the worst parts about my relationship with my ex. Not only did he never tell me he loved me, he hated it when I told him that I loved him. Having to keep those feelings inside was just awful and I will never be with someone again who doesn't receive and accept my love as anything other than a gift and a good thing in their life.
p.s.
If you're wondering what the Official AskMe Human Relations Book is, I think it might be this. Take some time to read it and really get what it's saying to you.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:26 PM on July 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
The only way I would stay with him at this point would be if him feeling this way bothers *him*. And if it was something that he would like to change by working on his issues and healing. Not for the sole reason of being able to love you in particular (or in response to an ultimatum) but for the reason of becoming a whole person who can give and receive love fully. Do you really want to be with someone who you have to threaten and cajole in order to get them to say they love you?
My ex said the same thing to me early in our relationship. We were married for almost 20 years and he said he loved me maybe 4 or 5 times. And I know now that it wasn't the kind of thing where he was thinking, "wow, I really love her, but I just can't say it out loud". When he told me that he'd never be able to truly love someone again it was the truth.
What I know now is that the next time I'm in a relationship with someone, it will need to be with someone who already wants what I want, before they've even met me. In other words, if I wanted to get married again, I would only be with someone who knows that they want to get married someday. Not someone who kind of doesn't want to be but will do it if I beg them enough.
And finally, this: I hate that he holds back and that makes me do it too. For me, this was truly one of the worst parts about my relationship with my ex. Not only did he never tell me he loved me, he hated it when I told him that I loved him. Having to keep those feelings inside was just awful and I will never be with someone again who doesn't receive and accept my love as anything other than a gift and a good thing in their life.
p.s.
If you're wondering what the Official AskMe Human Relations Book is, I think it might be this. Take some time to read it and really get what it's saying to you.
posted by dawkins_7 at 8:26 PM on July 15, 2016 [13 favorites]
My FIL and his wife lost their first spouses within a week of the same type of cancer. They had been family acquaintances previously (My BIL was close friends with her son), and it was the first post-death relationship for both of them. So yes, it is possible to find love in the first post trauma relationship. They've been together for over a decade, and they are so perfect for each other.
posted by Ruki at 9:15 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ruki at 9:15 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
When he says "I don't love you" what he really means is "I am going to treat you badly, and here's my get out cause, because I warned you. And besides, it isn't my fault, it is my ex's for screwing me up so badly!" Please don't sit around and wait for this to happen.
posted by intensitymultiply at 12:14 AM on July 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by intensitymultiply at 12:14 AM on July 16, 2016 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I'm not getting a "garbage person" (yikes) vibe from this guy. If I had to guess, I'd say that he loves you in practice, but that in theory, he thinks he's Not Able to Love Again. It sounds like he was burned and doesn't want to rush into anything (and a year isn't that long), and has resolved to take things slow in relationships. However, based on the fact that you guys seem quite fond of each other and that he even said he loved you by accident, I'd say his emotions took a detour from the caution script.
And he's not quite sure what to do with that because it's not what he planned. So when you say you love him he's faced with the choice of trotting out the caution script or expressing his true feelings; cooler heads prevail, and he sticks with the script.
I'm of the opinion that if he gets therapy and starts addressing his cautious stance toward intimacy, he can start to realize that, yes, he does love you and that, furthermore, it is okay for him to say that out loud. You are, of course, under no obligation to wait around for this to happen, nor is it guaranteed to happen (this is my own interpretation of things and could be wrong, after all).
But it does sound like a surmountable hang-up about acknowledging and celebrating the intimacy that's already there and that you guys enjoy. I would generally discourage ultimatums in service of this end, since it's likely to drive him back into the arms of caution, on which he already relies. Instead, I would encourage him to address (with you, perhaps, and definitely in therapy) some of the concerns he has about his ability/willingness to express love.
posted by delight at 2:03 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
And he's not quite sure what to do with that because it's not what he planned. So when you say you love him he's faced with the choice of trotting out the caution script or expressing his true feelings; cooler heads prevail, and he sticks with the script.
I'm of the opinion that if he gets therapy and starts addressing his cautious stance toward intimacy, he can start to realize that, yes, he does love you and that, furthermore, it is okay for him to say that out loud. You are, of course, under no obligation to wait around for this to happen, nor is it guaranteed to happen (this is my own interpretation of things and could be wrong, after all).
But it does sound like a surmountable hang-up about acknowledging and celebrating the intimacy that's already there and that you guys enjoy. I would generally discourage ultimatums in service of this end, since it's likely to drive him back into the arms of caution, on which he already relies. Instead, I would encourage him to address (with you, perhaps, and definitely in therapy) some of the concerns he has about his ability/willingness to express love.
posted by delight at 2:03 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: So much good advice and I thank you. Much of what was said has already been floating in my head for months. A side note--he is not a bad or evil person for expressing to me that he wasn't sure about love when I told him my feelings. He was responding in kind and being honest. I asked about his feeling and he did not lie.
And yea I agree. Believe what people say...but I don't want too!!!!! But I am starting too and that is my heart break.
I have suggested therapy to him because I thin k it could really help him but he is resistant.
posted by Izzi at 4:05 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
And yea I agree. Believe what people say...but I don't want too!!!!! But I am starting too and that is my heart break.
I have suggested therapy to him because I thin k it could really help him but he is resistant.
posted by Izzi at 4:05 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
An aunt of mine met her current husband met in a widows/widowers grief support group, shortly after they'd each lost longtime spouses. They've been happily married now for over twenty years; yes, it is possible to love again shortly after the end of a relationship. And while sweet heavens to betsy yes we all thought they were rushing things --- they'd each been widowed barely a year when they got married --- yes, they did find love and a solid partnership.
On the other hand, your guy has clearly told you he isn't in love with you, nor will he be. I'm sorry, but yeah: believe what people tell you, because he isn't going to change. He's staying now merely because it's convenient, because he likes having someone around to talk to --- note, he's not into having a true partner or a romantic relationship; all he wants is a buddy. (And he doesn't want to go to therapy because he's fine with the way things are, and he sees no need or reason to change.)
Please, move on now before you get hurt even more.
posted by easily confused at 4:53 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, your guy has clearly told you he isn't in love with you, nor will he be. I'm sorry, but yeah: believe what people tell you, because he isn't going to change. He's staying now merely because it's convenient, because he likes having someone around to talk to --- note, he's not into having a true partner or a romantic relationship; all he wants is a buddy. (And he doesn't want to go to therapy because he's fine with the way things are, and he sees no need or reason to change.)
Please, move on now before you get hurt even more.
posted by easily confused at 4:53 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
The 'never being able to love again' statement is dramatic and hyperbolic. He absolutely has a choice as to how he moves forward in his life. But he sounds as if he has chosen to identify himself by these parameters. Maybe it makes him feel safe, maybe it keeps him from having to let go and really face loss. We don't know. But until he takes on dealing with his identity around this statement, things won't change. That is the first step.
posted by Vaike at 5:54 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Vaike at 5:54 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have suggested therapy to him because I thin k it could really help him but he is resistant.
Suggesting therapy to someone so they will do what you want is vastly different than suggesting therapy to someone because you are concerned about their suffering. It doesn't sound like your boyfriend is suffering, you describe him as pretty happy overall. But *you* are suffering with this situation, so it is possible you would benefit from therapy to deal with this. You've gone through a lot over a long period. Good luck.
posted by headnsouth at 7:39 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
Suggesting therapy to someone so they will do what you want is vastly different than suggesting therapy to someone because you are concerned about their suffering. It doesn't sound like your boyfriend is suffering, you describe him as pretty happy overall. But *you* are suffering with this situation, so it is possible you would benefit from therapy to deal with this. You've gone through a lot over a long period. Good luck.
posted by headnsouth at 7:39 AM on July 16, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think you should try seeing other people. You're a big fan of monogamy and marriage and he isn't, not now, maybe not ever.
posted by BibiRose at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by BibiRose at 8:47 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
You said it yourself: you want him to fill the role your wonderful husband filled before he died. That won't ever happen, but your friend may turn out to be a good partner for you in the long run. Nobody can judge that from your post. I wouldn't try to put too fine a point on things right now. It might be a good thing if you two refrain from living together. In time your needs (monogamy) and his (some safety net) may meld into something workable.
You needn't, and shouldn't, let him decide what your needs are anymore than you get to decide what he needs. This is something the two of you should do together. This understanding probably won't come out of a series of formal meetings; more likely it will be conversations here and there added to the daily deeds that define the contours of your relationship. It sounds like the two of you have covered a lot of ground already.
I realize that you have already invested five years into this relationship. Maybe that's all the time you want to put into something that you feel has little chance of becoming what you need. If that's true, then the best thing to do would be to cut him loose. But in doing so you should realize that it's your needs, not his, that steer your decision. If you choose prospective partners from among those whom you need to fix, you might be well served to realize that it won't be you, but them, who does the fixing. Same is true in the reverse: you partner may be able to give you security, but he can't stomp the demons that crawl out from under your rocks.
I read your post to mean that you are worried because you believe that he doesn't love you as much as you love him. I'm pretty sure that's one metric that will never come to fruition until after a lot of water passes under the bridge--it takes a long time to know how to compare apples with oranges. But you deserve to at least to know if his commitment to the relationship is similar to yours.
Mrs mule and I met some 25 years ago, when she was fresh out of a terrible marriage, and I was about five years out of a bad fit with the Dragon Lady. Neither one of us wanted to expose ourselves to the prospect of once again having our hearts shredded. But we hung in there, one step at a time, and eventually a bond of trust was established. After ten years we finally married, but it took only half that time to figure out that our relationship was solid gold. Now I can't imagine my life without her in it.
posted by mule98J at 9:28 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
You needn't, and shouldn't, let him decide what your needs are anymore than you get to decide what he needs. This is something the two of you should do together. This understanding probably won't come out of a series of formal meetings; more likely it will be conversations here and there added to the daily deeds that define the contours of your relationship. It sounds like the two of you have covered a lot of ground already.
I realize that you have already invested five years into this relationship. Maybe that's all the time you want to put into something that you feel has little chance of becoming what you need. If that's true, then the best thing to do would be to cut him loose. But in doing so you should realize that it's your needs, not his, that steer your decision. If you choose prospective partners from among those whom you need to fix, you might be well served to realize that it won't be you, but them, who does the fixing. Same is true in the reverse: you partner may be able to give you security, but he can't stomp the demons that crawl out from under your rocks.
I read your post to mean that you are worried because you believe that he doesn't love you as much as you love him. I'm pretty sure that's one metric that will never come to fruition until after a lot of water passes under the bridge--it takes a long time to know how to compare apples with oranges. But you deserve to at least to know if his commitment to the relationship is similar to yours.
Mrs mule and I met some 25 years ago, when she was fresh out of a terrible marriage, and I was about five years out of a bad fit with the Dragon Lady. Neither one of us wanted to expose ourselves to the prospect of once again having our hearts shredded. But we hung in there, one step at a time, and eventually a bond of trust was established. After ten years we finally married, but it took only half that time to figure out that our relationship was solid gold. Now I can't imagine my life without her in it.
posted by mule98J at 9:28 AM on July 16, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think in your shoes, if I felt loved and was getting my other needs met in the relationship, I might just live with it for a while. It could be that semantically holding on to the position of not SAYING I love you lets him feel a tiny shred of safety, eg, "she can't REALLY hurt me like my ex wife did... Because I am not that vulnerable any more" (even though he is)
But if I felt like he was emotionally holding back besides not saying "I love you," I might make individual therapy for him a condition of the continued relationship. It doesn't make sense for him to settle for being emotionally crippled by a divorce forever, or for you to stay with someone who won't even try to address their past hurts.
posted by hungrytiger at 10:15 AM on July 16, 2016
But if I felt like he was emotionally holding back besides not saying "I love you," I might make individual therapy for him a condition of the continued relationship. It doesn't make sense for him to settle for being emotionally crippled by a divorce forever, or for you to stay with someone who won't even try to address their past hurts.
posted by hungrytiger at 10:15 AM on July 16, 2016
A more boring possibility to consider: he may just not be feeling it with you. Nothing to do with his past or yours, and he likes you well enough but it's just not lighting him on fire and that would be the case even in an alternate universe where you're two single people with no baggage who meet at a friend's birthday party and date for a while.
A lot of women, in particular, can get stuck in this sunk cost fallacy that if you just put in enough time and effort you can hold up both sides of the relationship yourself, and eventually he might be like "oh, hey, let me take over half of that for you" but that's not actually how it works. And generally, it doesn't matter if he does get better, whether via therapy or just time and realizing he's got to own his own life going forward, because it's very hard to turn a train around once it's on the tracks. He'll break up with you for a clean start with someone else.
It is possible to have an amazing connection AND deeply-felt commitment. The time for that to coalesce in this relationship was passed a long time ago.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:22 PM on July 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
A lot of women, in particular, can get stuck in this sunk cost fallacy that if you just put in enough time and effort you can hold up both sides of the relationship yourself, and eventually he might be like "oh, hey, let me take over half of that for you" but that's not actually how it works. And generally, it doesn't matter if he does get better, whether via therapy or just time and realizing he's got to own his own life going forward, because it's very hard to turn a train around once it's on the tracks. He'll break up with you for a clean start with someone else.
It is possible to have an amazing connection AND deeply-felt commitment. The time for that to coalesce in this relationship was passed a long time ago.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:22 PM on July 16, 2016 [6 favorites]
Some people just have a really big problem with The L Word. I tend to be a big believer in "Actions speak louder than words." I think it is more important for a person to be loving than to say "I love you."
I had a relationship with a man who could not say he loved me. He was a lot more socially and emotionally savvy than your guy, so he made me feel fine with me saying I loved him without him saying it back. So, it is possible to work around that detail. However, you and he seem to not know how to effectively work around it and that fact is turning it into more drama than it actually has to be.
For you, his inability to say it is evidence he doesn't love you. For me, those two things are separate questions. Talk is cheap. Plenty of people are free with affectionate words who aren't actually kind, respectful, caring etc.
But, if it isn't working for you, it isn't working for you. And it's okay to move on.
posted by Michele in California at 2:54 PM on July 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I had a relationship with a man who could not say he loved me. He was a lot more socially and emotionally savvy than your guy, so he made me feel fine with me saying I loved him without him saying it back. So, it is possible to work around that detail. However, you and he seem to not know how to effectively work around it and that fact is turning it into more drama than it actually has to be.
For you, his inability to say it is evidence he doesn't love you. For me, those two things are separate questions. Talk is cheap. Plenty of people are free with affectionate words who aren't actually kind, respectful, caring etc.
But, if it isn't working for you, it isn't working for you. And it's okay to move on.
posted by Michele in California at 2:54 PM on July 16, 2016 [2 favorites]
I experienced a similar issue with my boyfriend. He was really damaged from his divorce, and just wouldn't allow himself to admit his feelings to me. I felt loved, though and friends who saw us together said(unprompted) that they could tell that he loves me, and that we are great together. But not hearing those three little words, sometimes really got to me. One time, after a discussion about it, and him expressing his fear, and me wondering what I was still doing with him, I told him that whether he said the words out loud or not, he would still be hurt just the same if we broke up. He agreed.
Anyway, I decided to stick it out, because besides not hearing I love you, everything else told me that he did indeed love me. And now, he does actually say it. And more importantly, I believe it, and say it back. By the way, we've been together just over 2 1/2 years at this point.
So, yes, the words are important, but do you think he loves you, but just can't bring himself to say it yet?
posted by poppunkcat at 12:00 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I decided to stick it out, because besides not hearing I love you, everything else told me that he did indeed love me. And now, he does actually say it. And more importantly, I believe it, and say it back. By the way, we've been together just over 2 1/2 years at this point.
So, yes, the words are important, but do you think he loves you, but just can't bring himself to say it yet?
posted by poppunkcat at 12:00 PM on July 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by so fucking future at 3:08 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]