Comments on: Cold Air Refrigeration

Question: Cold Air Refrigeration

ParisParamus — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:19:17 -0800

Using Cold Outside Air to Reduce Refrigeration Costs: Why isn't this done?

Why has it not become architectural and kitchen appliance practice to use the cold air of fall, winter and spring to reduce home energy costs? In other words, why not create duct work and refrigerator/freezers that suck in cold outside air to cut down on electric refrigeration costs? Mass produced, such would not seem like it would add much cost to applicances, and over the years, it would more than pay for itself, and then some. Yes, Floridians or residents of Italy might not benefit, but still...

By: cosmicbandito

cosmicbandito — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:24:11 -0800

probably because the space, material, and effort involved cost far more than you would save.

By: cosmicbandito

cosmicbandito — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:30:04 -0800

although you often see very large walkin freezers located outside restuarants here in wisconsin. On that scale, it may be worthwhile, although it would be inconvienient to have to go outside all the time.

By: dorian

dorian — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:31:48 -0800

some people do keep a fridge or freezer out in their (unheated) garage. and some people in regions that are cold all year round have an outbuilding or root cellar to keep things frozen or cool.

but maybe that's too low-tech or inconvenient for some?

By: undertone

undertone — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:33:20 -0800

In Minnesota, we don't need duct work. We just throw stuff in the garage or on the porch to refrigerate/freeze.

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:34:45 -0800

cosmicbandito is probably right — you'd need to make this ductwork very well insulated, or you'd just end up draining heat from the building and paying just as much in increased heating costs. Also, for residential use, the building would loose flexibility — the refrigerator would need to be in the same place for the life of the building, which would prevents many of the renovations and conversions that tend to take place in older buildings.

For large commercial refrigerations needs such as refrigerated warehouses or trucks something like this might make more sense.

By: IshmaelGraves

IshmaelGraves — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:35:28 -0800

would loose flexibility

lose, dammit.

By: dorian

dorian — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:37:37 -0800

considering that this is similar to the sort of thing heat pumps do, I'd guess that the technology for it is already there. but yeah it still sounds awfully complicated.

By: chocolatepeanutbuttercup

chocolatepeanutbuttercup — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:38:15 -0800

On a related note (hope I'm not hijacking the thread) is there some way to vent my electric clothes dryer INSIDE the house during the winter? I would think the warm, moist air would save a little on heating and also add some humid comfort.

By: dorian

dorian — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:44:55 -0800

chocolatepeanutbuttercup, you most definitely can get a combination filter/valve thingy, but only because you have an electric dryer. I believe a gas dryer's exhaust is NOT safe to breathe...

By: andrew cooke

andrew cooke — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 11:47:34 -0800

when you're moving heat around (which is what refrigeration is, really), two things make it easy: a big tempertaure difference and a medium that has a large capacity for heat (water has a bigger capacity than air - for any particular temperature it's much worse for you to be in cold water than cold air, for example).

anyway, cold external air is not that different to internal temperatures (relatively small difference) and air has a low capacity for heat. so it's not an efficient way to transport heat.

using a nearby river would make much more sense (high capacity) and, indeed, that kind of thing happens (although not so much these days with environmental regs, i guess).

By: Nelson

Nelson — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:01:28 -0800

But, they do! Or rather, they did. My 1927 house in San Francisco has a cabinet in the kitchen that's vented to the outside. The theory was you'd put vegetables and the like in it to keep fresher and cooler. The vents are basically just louvered holes in the wall; long since sealed up. But it was there.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:12:35 -0800

is there some way to vent my electric clothes dryer INSIDE the house during the winter

I did it by simply breaking the ductwork in two and putting a worn-out cotton sock over the exhaust. It seems to catch all the lint after the first load goes through; it probably helps that we use a front-loader washer, which because it doesn't agitate the clothes abrasively, doesn't make much lint to start with.

I've been thinking that for my kitchen remodel I might seal the fridge at the back, and run a small computer fan to circulate air out of that space and into the basement. If I added another bit of ducting, I could select between household air and outside air intakes.

By: StickyCarpet

StickyCarpet — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:13:04 -0800

Nelson: I too have seen this quite a bit in rural houses. My sister in Vermont has an unheated pantry off the kitchen with a louvered vent.

By: 6:1

6:1 — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:30:08 -0800

I grew up in the midwest, and in the winter my mother stored food in the garage, (not in a refrig., just in the garage. I tend to remember this mostly with soups and stews. My grandmother used her covered porch area to store things that needed to be cool, but not necessary really cold--that was in Upper Mich.) When they had a party, beer was put in snow drifts to get icy cold.

By: 9000.68

9000.68 — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:47:09 -0800

At the Richard Nixon museum in southern California, in his historical home, there is an insolated closet in the kitchen with a dumb waiter that lowers to keep food in a deep narrow hole in the ground that is especially dug for the purpose. I don't know what it is called. That's the only one I have ever seen.

By: dhartung

dhartung — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 12:53:55 -0800

Refrigerator Cold Air Vent at HalfBakery.

It probably isn't practical to pump cold air directly into the fridge. You'd have to have some mechanism to block it off 9 months of the year, anyway. And refrigerators do more than just cool -- they control interior humidity as well. The refrigerator coil/condensor/compressor system is very optimized for ~70° environments; changing that would mean a different appliance, probably with double the equipment.

I think it's actually more of a concern how much heat a fridge generates during the summer. It's hard to get that heat out of the house, because it's warmer outside, whereas the heat generated during winter actually helps your furnace.

Also, keep in mind that a fridge outside is very inefficient, and below a certain outside temp, can't keep things frozen (because the compressor refuses to run). The garage fridge is a mistake if you're looking at saving energy, and not just because it's usually an older, less-efficient model (probably with a cracked gasket).

So, solving the bigger problem of excess heat is more important, and that could be done -- of course, with home renovation part of the cost. The heat pump is already growing in popularity as heating energy costs skyrocket; I suspect that it would be easy enough to design a fridge that, like a built-in A/C, could "vent" heat into the ground outside. But it would be much more expensive. (Inflexibility isn't such an issue; most kitchens have the fridge in the same place for the lifetime of the building, anyway.) I suspect as heat pumps become more common this is an option that will arise.

By: 9000.68

9000.68 — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:06:06 -0800

I've known people in British Columbia that bury old freezers or refrigerators for use in the winter. It will not only keep food cold but the insulation will keep food from freezing which is a problem here if you keep food outside in the winter.

Of course this needs to be child-proofed somehow.

When I went to buy a new freezer this winter the kid who helped me load it said "Ah, I don't need a freezer, I just dig a hole in the ground. "

By: Paris Hilton

Paris Hilton — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 15:54:00 -0800

Of course this needs to be child-proofed somehow.

Aren't most refrigerators childproof these days anyway? I mean, they seem to be held in place by static electricity or air pressure or something, not a latch like really old fridges.

I don't see why it would be hard to just push the door open.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:35:59 -0800

It's hard to get that heat out of the house, because it's warmer outside, whereas the heat generated during winter actually helps your furnace.

D-oh. Guess I won't bother with my weird little plan, then!

By: gottabefunky

gottabefunky — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 16:53:13 -0800

Sometimes it is done using cold, deep water.

By: orlin

orlin — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:04:25 -0800

I would think freezing water and drawing the cold out of it in the upper states would work -- would it not ?

By: jessamyn

jessamyn — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 17:25:49 -0800

When I lived in Eaastern Europe, most houses that had porches had cabinets out on the porches where people would keep vegetables and canned goods. Sometimes this cabinet opened into the kitchen and sometimes it didn't [and it made the kitchen pretty cold if it did] which is sort of the same thing.

By: Rumple

Rumple — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 19:59:03 -0800

My parent's house (British Columbia) has a "cool cupboard" in which you can keep fruit, onions, potatos, cakes, etc. it has a simple vent to the outdoors out the back. it is not insulated and it is drafty, so I am pretty sure it is a net energy cost in the winter, though it is great all year around.

Consider that fridges are most efficient when full of stuff, so decanting stuff out of a fridge won't necessarily save money if the fridge is runnung anyway -- there would be some benefit with not having to cool down food and with perhaps opening the door less often, but my guess is the energy savings would be marginal.

By: joegester

joegester — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 20:08:11 -0800

Aren't most refrigerators childproof these days anyway? I mean, they seem to be held in place by static electricity or air pressure or something, not a latch like really old fridges.

Magnets I think.

By: ParisParamus

ParisParamus — Mon, 26 Dec 2005 21:41:53 -0800

This has been really interesting.

And, by the way, I sweetly remember a certain refrigerator-less apartment near the Place Gambetta in Paris, with milk and jam on the ledge outside the window. She was delicious and energy-conscious!