Navy, Air Force, or other for IT?

December 22, 2005 4:12 AM

I'm thinking of joining the Navy. The main reasons are the training, marketability, and the experience. However, I'm not sure if the Navy is where I would want to be or if one of the other armed services would be more suitable for what I want.

I have an Associates in Applied Science (computer networking/tech) already, idealy I would like to continue on the IT track if I were to go into the armed services. My question is, which branch would be the best in terms of training, experience, etc in the eyes of a future employer? Also, anyone with experience in IT in the navy or otherwise wish to share an annecdote or two?

posted by pemdasi to work & money (24 comments total)

I spent 9 years in the army/army reserve, in a non-technical MOS, so I can't speak too specifically, except that you need to make sure that any promises for training, assignment locations, etc are in writing.

The Navy (like the Air Force) is not having any problem recruiting people right now, so getting a slot for a highly desirable MOS may take a while. Dont let them talk you into signing up for an unspecified MOS, and believe them when they say that you can choose what job you want later on. If it isnt in the contract, any promises that they make you are subject to the whim of whoever you talk to.

As to the "best" branch, it depends on what you want. For the most part, the Air Force and the Navy are the most "comfortable" (i.e. you wont spend much time sleeping on the ground in the rain). The Navy and Air Force are also more selective about who they let in, and spend more time training inductees than either the Army or the Marine Corps.

I dont regret a minute of the time I spent in the military. If I had to do it all over again, I probably would.
posted by stupidcomputernickname at 4:24 AM on December 22, 2005

I might get a negative response, but hasn't the military got something to do with patriotism, service, etc and not personal career advancement?
posted by A189Nut at 4:34 AM on December 22, 2005

While I can't offer any career advice, you should realize that joining any branch of the US Armed Forces right now could land you in Iraq within the near future.
Please don't take that as a flame or argument, but the very real chance of getting deployed is not an insignificant consideration.
posted by dicaxpuella at 4:36 AM on December 22, 2005

I have three-brothers-in-law in the Air Force, and if I remember what they have told me, the Air Force is the only branch where an enlisted can earn college credit for on-the-job training.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:02 AM on December 22, 2005

Marketability for what? Seriously.

As part of my job I used to hire electronic technicians, and I interviewed many former military guys with "electronics experience." I can state unequivocally that military training alone will not prepare a person for a private sector job as an electronic tech. Their training and their operations and maintenance process are very geared toward the lowest common denominator, towards following step-by-step instructions written at a sixth-grade level and aimed at swapping the correct module from a box, rather than identifying and replacing the specific failed component in that module. Not a lot of focus on basic principles or overall trooubleshooting methodologies.

I suspect other technical disciplines are treated similarly by the military.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:23 AM on December 22, 2005

Ex-AF - 49151(Information Systems Operator)

If what I saw was representative (And I have reason to believe it was.), the military is probably quite trailing-edge as far as technology goes: I was in during the late 80's/90's, and they were still using punch cards/paper tape, 9-track and disk platters. I'm definately the only person I know who can read hollerith code by sight.

Watch for the bait-and-switch with reference to your guaranteed specialty - Do NOT take a "related field."

One of the best things about the AF (IMO) is that it was most like a day-to-day job, and less like frat hazing than most of the other branches (I worked in a multi-service office). If the Navy's anything like what it was, you're going to have to spend at least half your enlistment 'wet'(aboard ship), which I gather is a major pain - I've heard Sub duty is the worst, though.

IME, the most career-advantageous thing the military can give you is a security clearance. The training is very task-oriented, and unlikely to transfer as anything specific in college-proper. On Preview: ZenMasterThis is pretty accurate.

You used to be able to get credit from the CCAF for your OJT, but don't expect it to be anything great - 3 credits for PT, 3 for your specialization in my case. On the other hand, you CAN take free CLEP testing while you're a military member - That lets you rack up LOTS of credits, if you have the time.
posted by Orb2069 at 5:33 AM on December 22, 2005

1. Of the four branches of military, the Air Force is usually considered the best in terms of "quality of life" (housing, family situations, facilities, infrastructure, etc)

2. Yes, you do indeed earn college credit for basic training and your advanced technical training; the AF is the only branch that has a fully accredited community college that awards Associate Degrees. While on active-duty, the military will also pay most (or all) of your tuition for off-duty college courses.

3. Patriotism is quite compatible with the goals that you have stated. No one joins the military for just one (or two, etc) reasons: there are many, many reasons that people serve, and for some, service to the country ranks higher than training; for others, money for college ranks higher. But no matter the reason, once you take the Oath and put on the uniform, you are in service to America, which is an honorable thing.

4. Deployment to Iraq (etc) is indeed possible. Certain career fields are more prone to deployment than others, just as certain branches of service are more prone than others.

Drop me a note if you want more info.
posted by davidmsc at 5:33 AM on December 22, 2005

Also: FWIW, the Air Force just updated the official mission statement to include the word "cyberspace." Some may snicker, but information systems/security is critical nowadays, and the military needs to stay on top of it.
posted by davidmsc at 5:36 AM on December 22, 2005

Active duty Navy 6 years now, working as an Information Systems Security Officer in Washington DC.

I enlisted because I wanted to serve my country. That may seem naive to many, but I joined at 28, fully aware of this country's "shadow side", but still believing in the greatness of this country and its potential to be even greater. Although this was in 1999, and this was a completely different country, I still believe this. That said, I also negotiated aggressively with the recruiter, because if I was going to offer 4 years of my life, I was determined to get good training and experience in return (service and ambition don't need to be mutually exclusive, A189nut).

So, I joined with a guaranteed "A" school, which is what determines your rating, which is your job. I was also given an enlistment bonus for agreeing to a difficult job field that required a long "A" school and a 6 year enlistment. Mine was one of the Cryptologic Technician rates, guaranteeing I would get technical training, and also a high security clearance. This will be an important factor in making you competitive in the job market should you choose to get out after your enlistment is up. You would probably want to be an IT (formerly Radioman and a couple of other rates combined), their job is, well, IT. They have a pretty rough sea/shore rotation at the junior level, I believe 5 years sea to 3 years shore, so expect to go "haze gray and underway". Another option is CTN, Cryptologic Technician (Network). CTNs get a TS security clearance and work as either network defense or network exploitation..good stuff, and their rotation for CTs isn't standard sea/shore, its OUTUS/CONUS, meaning you could go a whole career without being near a ship. Sort of a shame I think, but many people prefer this (although if you go career, don't expect to get beyond E-6 without going to a ship). I would probably convert to CTN, but I'll either be going officer or leaving the military within three years. I also had my AA going in , and this should get you the paygrade (rank) of no less than E-3, that's Seaman, from day one. And because of the rate I had chosen I was automatically advanced one paygrade upon graduation from "A" school. So August 2000 I graduated, earned my rate, and put on Petty Officer Third Class (the equivalent of Corporal). At my first duty station I worked hard and was given two "C" schools, advanced training in specific disciplines. Completion of a "C" schools gives you an NEC or Naval Enlisted Classification Code, basically saying what jobs your qualified to perform. I was lucky enough to get System Administrator and Network Security Vulnerability Technician schools, even though my rate was more geared toward maintaining crypto equipment than IT. Having these has pretty much cemented me as an IT worker now since we're in demand, especially with a security clearance.

Today, I'm a Petty Officer First Class (equivalent of a Staff Sergeant), have finished my B.S. from a good school (watch out, Navy College programs will steer you toward diploma mills), and run my own small IT shop as the leading petty officer. I also have completed several certifications, all paid for by the Navy. BTW, I finished my degree on the Navy's dime using their Tuition Assistance program, and begin my Master's work using the same program in January. My GI Bill will be intact and unused when I leave in 2009. For my Navy schools I received 36 undergraduate level credits in various areas, but couldn't use them because I already had my AA.

Is Iraq a possibility? Yes, so is Afghanistan, a few people from my command have deployed, and I was "forward deployed" for six months, but not in what I would describe as highly dangerous duty. Isolated, but not dangerous. Are the Navy/Air Force the most comfortable? Yes, absolutely so, although shipboard life isn't exactly fun, its not digging a hole for your bed in crappy weather.

I don't regret anything, although I've had some crappy duty, like being assigned to a guard gate for 13 months after 9/11 (this is also because I volunteered for security force as a collateral duty, so its my own fault). I wouldn't take back a minute of it though. The people I've met, the places I've gone, and the experience I've gained have all been worth it. In many ways the military is what you make of it, how hard you work will definitely dictate the benefits you receive. In the beginning it will seem simple and meaningless, but if you're patient it will pay dividends. The only thing I might change finishing my BS first and going in as an officer, which is an option you should consider. You won't get experience in IT as a technician, but if you join as a Cryptologic Officer you'll most likely get IT management experience.

That's a pretty general overview of my experience so far, if you want more details or more information, please don't hesitate to e-mail me. And if you decide to join, definitely e-mail me before you do, so I can give you bullet points on what to demand from the recruiter in writing.
posted by tetsuo at 6:05 AM on December 22, 2005 [4 favorites has favorites]

Couple grammatical errors in there, sorry 'bout that, writing in a bit of a rush.
posted by tetsuo at 6:12 AM on December 22, 2005

Speaking from my own experiences in the Army there are plenty of opportunities for gaining college credit while in the Army, but it all depends on where you get stationed. Every Army base has some sort of community college on post, even the tiny 250-man air base I was stationed at in Korea. The problem is that the needs of the unit override the needs of the individual, so if you get assigned to a unit that is designed to deploy at a moments notice, you probably aren't going to be able to take much advantage of those free college classes. You do earn credit for training and time in service, but not a whole lot. I think I git 19 credit hours for four years active duty in a relatively specializied MOS. If you are really interested in gaining some marketable skills while in the military, make sure you do as much research as possible on your own before you even approach a recruiter. He's going to give you the hard sell speech and try to push you into the direction of whatever MOS has the most vacancies,regardless of what you want. Just go in with a clear idea of what you want. As far as marketability goes, I think anything that distinguishes your resume from others increases marketability. I just graduated from college in May and got the job that I wanted the most. I firmly believe that that was because military service separated me from most of the other applicants. Also realize that if you are joining the military to solely gain some marketable skills then you are going to most likely really hate it. You're going to spend alot of time doing things that have absolutely nothing to do with marketable skills. You really need either a sense of patriotism or a sense of adventure.
posted by ttrendel at 6:20 AM on December 22, 2005

If post-service marketability is your priority, finish your bachelor's degree and go into the Navy as an officer. Navy officers have a sweet private sector career network.

There is a junior+senior year only ROTC option which will guarantee your commission upon graduation (and maybe some college funding along the way, although I don't know about that). There's also OCS which you can apply for once you're a graduating senior, or after graduation, but the competition for OCS slots is fierce.
posted by MattD at 6:54 AM on December 22, 2005

Quality of life, from best to worst: Air Force, Navy, Army, Marine Corps. If the Air Force and Marines deploy side-by-side on the same mission, the Marines will be sleeping on the ground in the rain, while the Air Force will have air-conditioned Quonset huts.

Opportunity to get useful training if and only if you have that in your enlistment contract exists in all four services, but is most easy in the Air Force and Navy.

Whatever anyone tells you about taking college courses during your enlistment, it's very hard. You're likely to be moving/training/deploying very often. You have to get approval from your command to take classes, and they won't do it if it interferes, however slightly, with your military duties. You have very very little control over your actions until you've spent at least, say, 3 years in.

And needless to say, there's no classes being offered in Iraq. Correspondence courses only go so far...

Understand that all military technologies are 10 years behind the times and geared toward being used by very stupid people. They're probably using Pentiums now - I mean 80586s, not the new-fangled ones. The military overall is a POOR place to get IT experience - most of that work, they contract out to giant contractors like Deloitte.

Understand also that the job you get assigned to determines everything about your experience. If they assign you to be a fry cook, you're a frigging fry cook - wake up every morning at 3AM to start cooking breakfast, as soon as breakfast is done start preparing for lunch, and so on. If they assign you to be an infantryman, you're an infantryman, make sure you sign up for the life insurance. If they assign you to a job that is only useful on a ship, you're going to spend your career on a ship, but don't worry, they hand out free Dramamine and after a few days the vomit/gym socks smell either goes away or you become totally inured to it. If they assign you to a job that is only useful on an airplane, you're going to log more frequent flyer miles than any stewardess. The only input you have on the job you get is your initial contract.

Once you sign, your contract may be unilaterally extended indefinitely at the convenience of the U.S. government. If something comes up two days before you're supposed to get out and start work at the civilian job you've got lined up, too bad, you might spend a few extra years in the military that you didn't plan on.
posted by jellicle at 7:22 AM on December 22, 2005

Active Duty Navy for 6 years, like tetsuo. I enlisted (at age 22) because I wanted to do something, and I was not too happy with my current life. While I was not exactly the victim of a "bait-and-switch," I did end up on a different career path. Rather than the medical field I was interested in (I used to be an EMT), I did a little too well on some entrance exams. So, mostly with pressure from my family (all former Navy, officer and enlisted) I enlisted as a Prospective Nuclear Operator.

I got all the same perks as tetsuo did, early advancement, etc. You are also in what is described as the most challenging technical training pipeline in the military. It was difficult at times, but it's more a focus and determination thing. The enlisted Nuke pipeline is almost 2 years long, give or take a couple months for rate-specific training. It's not for everyone, but it's certainly worked out for me. Note, nuclear power is not the high-tech wonderland I thought. It's mostly steam power, with a different heat source. I still found it very interesting.

As to where my career path split from the norm, it was at the end of my training. After qualifying as a nuclear electrical operator ("graduating") at my last training command, I was kept on as an instructor rather than sent to a sea-going command like my peers. I did that for a couple years, and loved it really. After that instructor tour, I applied for, and was accepted for a Commissioning Program. What that means is that I'm now a full-time college student, still getting full E-6 pay and benefits. I'll graduate with my B.E. in exactly 399 days (not that I'm counting) and then go back to nuclear power as an officer. The college I attend has been generous with the transfer credit for my Navy training and experience, allowing to graduate early. Oh yeah, and I've never been to sea or stationed anywhere remotely bad (well, maybe South Carolina).

All that said, the military isn't a free ride. You get what you put into it. You will work with some of the smartest, talented, and dedicated people you'll ever meet. You will also work with "that guy" who seems to have a showering problem and can't wake up on time.

For what you want to do, look into the IT rate. Like previously mentioned, it is a newer rate (navy term for MOS) that replaced radioman. And tetsuo can give you the low down on CT's, which the couple I know have all like their jobs. It seems to be a similar field to nuke in the screening and standards, and I know some good people who went from one to the other.

Also, what was said about military training being behind the curve, I agree. I learned about vacuum tubes in my A-School. In 2000. However, I've also dealt with some really new technology with regards to power conversion and batteries. It just depends on circumstances.

As far as the Navy vs. Air Force, that depends on what each can offer you. I don't know anyone in the AF, but I do know that they have the nicest bases (and the cutest girls). I've heard that their quality of life is better, but that they advance slower than other branches. Regarding the Navy and sea-duty. If you don't want to go on a ship, don't join the Navy. That's what we do (nominally).

I apologize if I wandered off-topic, and for the rambling. Hope this helps, and like the others, feel free to email me with any questions or concerns.
posted by jawbreaker at 7:55 AM on December 22, 2005

jawbreaker: I don't know anyone in the AF, but I do know that they have the nicest bases (and the cutest girls).

Thanks jawbreaker -- I'll share that compliment with my Air Force "sisters!" And best wishes with the school/commissioning thing -- I did the same about 8 years ago -- it's different on the "other side," but on balance, it's a good thing (esp. $).
posted by davidmsc at 8:49 AM on December 22, 2005

You doing Seaman-to-Admiral jawbreaker? Good stuff.

If you don't want to end up a nuke, pendasi, then don't take the second test they offer you after they see your ASVAB results.

I think the in house Navy training is ok, but I would definitely agree with many of the others here that if you want to be competitive in the market, you need to supplement with college or additional training. If you interview with just the schools the Navy gives you, you will be viewed as underqualified. Using jawbreaker as an example, the Navy nuke pipeline probably prepared him well to take on an engineering curriculum, and the IT pipeline would probably prepare you to begin a CIS curriculum.

Jellicle touched upon stop-loss, and just for a bit of perspective, I've only seen one person who was almost kept in after his retirement had come due, and it didn't happen. He also says: the military overall is a POOR place to get IT experience, and overall I'd have to agree, that's why you need to really stick to your guns with your recruiter. If you're assigned to IT, you'll get opportunities to attend Cisco, Oracle, MCSE, and other courses. One guy I work with is getting ready to sit for his CCIE practical, and he'll be the third CCIE I've met wearing the same uniform I do. And BTW, even on isolated duty we're pretty well situated for gear (Pentium IVs, thank you very much), and I've been lucky enough to work on some pretty nice equipment (routers, switches, a ton of Sun gear, superdomes, server switches, etc., none of it less than two years old). Right now I'm not working on anything more powerful than a PowerEdge, but hopefully I'll transfer to a challenging billet when I'm up for rotation. And BTW, the gear that I can't discuss is definitely not geared to be used by stupid people. I'm not sure where jellicle's perspective is coming from, maybe we're just lucky in the Crypto community. The bottom line is if you're not explicitly assigned to an IT type billet, no, you won't get IT experience.

A final note: yes the Air Force bases are the nicest, and they really know how to take care of their people and yes, the AF girls are the hottest for some reason. I live on an AFB right now, and I have to give them kudos for all that.
posted by tetsuo at 9:16 AM on December 22, 2005 [1 favorite has favorites]

I joined the AF in 1979 after dropping out of college. It was by far the best thing I ever did. I started out as an Avionics bench tech and learned on leading edge equipment and also learned great troubleshooting techniques that have transferred over into other fields. After taking a lump sum payment (post Gulf War 1 draw down), to get out of active duty in 1993, I joined the Air Guard as a full time technician and moved into IT. I was able to get my MCSE and CCNA, plus tons of real world experience managing a large (2000 node+) network. When I left in 2000 I got a job offer from every interview I went on. The combination of discipline, experience, and the ability to handle pressure were great assets that all the hiring managers I talked with were looking for. I was always a smart kid with standardized test scores in the top 1%, but I was missing the discipline I needed to put my intelligence to work. The AF helped instill that in me. Now I have a great job making great money, a BS degree that I mostly finished in the AF, and will be starting my MBA next year. Don't get me wrong, everything wasn't perfect while in the AF. But I've traveled more than any of my friends that I grew up with, and have some amazing stories to tell. If I could start over again I would have stayed in college. But the AF helped me get my shit together and made me much more able to get along with people from different races and cultures that I would probably have never been exposed to in my home town. You need to make sure you pick a good career field (AFSC), and get everything the recruiters promise you in writing. If you have good ASVAB scores you can most likely get a guaranteed 1st assignment also. Be prepared for having to work with many right wing folks, I was always the token liberal.
posted by white_devil at 9:28 AM on December 22, 2005

Oh yes, and be prepared, the military can be monumentally boring. I always like to joke that only the Army could make something like blowing shit up and killing people a sleeping aid. But overall, it can certainly be an interesting experience.
posted by KirTakat at 11:58 AM on December 22, 2005

Not to thread-hijack (well, yeah) but if anyone is/was a SEAL, would you mind sharing your opinions & experiences as one? Feel free to email its not appropriate to post here -- sorry, continue :)
posted by devilsbrigade at 12:21 PM on December 22, 2005

To add to the consensus that the Air Force is the best place for enlisted folks (and probably officers), two reasons why:

* Centralized, permanent bases - most operational Air Force sites are big and are going to be around for a while.

* (Some, and most of the important) officers fly (or did), while (many of the) enlisted maintain and repair the airplanes, and provide other essential services for pilots. Most of those that fly do appreciate the people that keep them safe (and help them to accomplish their missions), and realize that if they keep those people happy, those people will reciprocate.
posted by WestCoaster at 12:52 PM on December 22, 2005

Tetsuo's perspective is undoubtedly not wrong, for the tiny number of people assigned to cryptographic work.... There are a thousand infantrymen for every cryptographic type, so unless you can get an enlistment contract that's *guaranteed* to get you a desirable, high-tech job like that, you're not going to get it.

True story: a guy named Pavel joined the U.S. Marines. His recruiter promised him that after signing up open contract (no promises whatsoever), he could get into the intelligence field. Reality: since he wasn't born in the U.S., he wasn't eligible for intelligence at all, nor did the Marine Corps care what he wanted - he was assigned to the infantry. Did I mention you can't quit?

Certain jobs in the military can be very much like working at a regular office. But most of them - to the point of overwhelming the others - are very different. When tetsuo tells you he's got a job learning advanced, useful things and using modern IT equipment, that's great, a good model for you to follow, but it's not *typical*... The vast majority of military veterans come away with useful skills like:

--cleaning a rifle
--shooting a rifle
--carrying heavy things for long distances
--boot shining

If you want to come away with a particular set of skills, you need to be very careful how you go in.
posted by jellicle at 3:19 PM on December 22, 2005

What jellilcle said is undoubtedly true for the vast majority of Marines and Army folks, but much, much less so for Air Force personnel. It also depends heavily on which career field you are in...for instance, medical personnel (such as me) rarely handle weapons; in fact, I held and fired a weapon precisely once in my 18-year career to date (in basic training).
posted by davidmsc at 5:34 PM on December 22, 2005

The key is never expect anything that is not specifically outlined in your contract.
posted by mhaw at 8:31 PM on December 22, 2005

As part of my job I used to hire electronic technicians, and I interviewed many former military guys with "electronics experience." I can state unequivocally that military training alone will not prepare a person for a private sector job as an electronic tech.

FWIW, this was my husband's experience in the Coast Guard. I mean, he was an electronics tech, but his job consisted mostly of finding sources of supply for obsolete parts. Seriously. After 10 years he was downsized, basically, and did not end up in electronics in the civilian sector.
posted by scratch at 9:59 AM on December 23, 2005