How do you know if a woman really likes you and is open to dating you?
April 8, 2016 11:55 AM Subscribe
This is probably something I should have figured out at 17 rather than 27, but here I am. My own experiences with women haven't been really positive. I was always a bit shy when I was younger. My dad was abusive so I ended up clinging to my mother. My mom is a good woman but she can be a bit controlling and overbearing at times. Plus she was a conservative muslim so it's not like she ever encouraged me to date and indeed actively discouraged me from doing so.
My experiences with girls at school weren't positive either. I don't want to sound too dramatic because this isn't exactly traumatic stuff just some things that reflect the fact that I'm not very popular with women.
When I was younger there have been a few occassions where girls would be discussing different guys in my presence. Some of the guys would be labeled hot or cute. Inevitably somebody would turn to me and ask "what about Dynamo05" and the girl would inevitably say "he's a nice guy".
It's sad because when I was younger I actually thought this was a good thing until somebody clued me in saying that girls label guys as nice guys as a nice way of saying they're not attracted to you or basically because they can't find anything positive to say.
I've also had guys jokingly ask other girls if they liked me and of course the girls are absolutely adamant that don't.
As I've grown older women have become nicer but still not attracted to me. The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down.
So I'm just wondering what are the signs that a woman is open to you? How do you know that a woman is open to dating you?
My experiences with girls at school weren't positive either. I don't want to sound too dramatic because this isn't exactly traumatic stuff just some things that reflect the fact that I'm not very popular with women.
When I was younger there have been a few occassions where girls would be discussing different guys in my presence. Some of the guys would be labeled hot or cute. Inevitably somebody would turn to me and ask "what about Dynamo05" and the girl would inevitably say "he's a nice guy".
It's sad because when I was younger I actually thought this was a good thing until somebody clued me in saying that girls label guys as nice guys as a nice way of saying they're not attracted to you or basically because they can't find anything positive to say.
I've also had guys jokingly ask other girls if they liked me and of course the girls are absolutely adamant that don't.
As I've grown older women have become nicer but still not attracted to me. The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down.
So I'm just wondering what are the signs that a woman is open to you? How do you know that a woman is open to dating you?
This post was deleted for the following reason: poster's request -- LobsterMitten
How do you know that a woman is open to dating you?
"Hey [person], are you free this Thursday evening? I would like to take you out for [dinner/coffee/a trip to the zoo]."
The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down.
Then ask out more women. Rejection isn't some horrible outcome (unless you act weird and make it that way), just get more practice asking women out, and you'll get more acceptances.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:02 PM on April 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
"Hey [person], are you free this Thursday evening? I would like to take you out for [dinner/coffee/a trip to the zoo]."
The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down.
Then ask out more women. Rejection isn't some horrible outcome (unless you act weird and make it that way), just get more practice asking women out, and you'll get more acceptances.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:02 PM on April 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
How do you know if a woman really likes you and is open to dating you?
You ask her. Use the explicit word 'date.' Lots of guys like to pull this thing where they won't ask a woman on a date, they'll invite her out for whatever. She thinks it's friendly, at the end of the night it's suddenly ambush date time and no.
"Would you like to go on a date next week? There's this amazing exhibit of mid-80's Mason jars I've been wanting to see."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:09 PM on April 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
You ask her. Use the explicit word 'date.' Lots of guys like to pull this thing where they won't ask a woman on a date, they'll invite her out for whatever. She thinks it's friendly, at the end of the night it's suddenly ambush date time and no.
"Would you like to go on a date next week? There's this amazing exhibit of mid-80's Mason jars I've been wanting to see."
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:09 PM on April 8, 2016 [24 favorites]
How do you know if a woman really likes you and is open to dating you?
Courage, gentleness, listening. Mainly courage.
Not boldness, mind you, but the courage to ask a few.
posted by amtho at 12:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Courage, gentleness, listening. Mainly courage.
Not boldness, mind you, but the courage to ask a few.
posted by amtho at 12:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down.
I mean, not to sound flippant, but this is going to be the case until it isn't. Being rejected after asking someone on a date sucks, but it's not by any means an assault on your character or desirability. It's just one particular person saying, for whatever reason (including plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with you at all), that they don't want to go on a date with you. The only way you'll know for a fact that someone is open to going on a date with you is you ask them (or they ask you.) Other than that, you're just trying to go by ~signals~ and from what it sounds like you're not great at reading them, and if you're not great at that it's better for you to take a much more direct route and if you meet someone cute and single who you have at least a bit of rapport with, just ask.
Also, don't ask people to ask other people out for you or if they like you or whatever. I'm sure there are some women who would find that flattering (or at least inoffensive,) but self-confidence is attractive and not being able to do your own work, as it were, is demonstrating the opposite of self-confidence. I'm not saying that displaying confidence in this way will necessarily cause someone go from not wanting to go on a date to wanting to go on a date, but hiding behind another person can definitely wreck your chances if it turns out they would have been open to go on a date if you'd just asked them yourself.
posted by griphus at 12:14 PM on April 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
I mean, not to sound flippant, but this is going to be the case until it isn't. Being rejected after asking someone on a date sucks, but it's not by any means an assault on your character or desirability. It's just one particular person saying, for whatever reason (including plenty of reasons that have nothing to do with you at all), that they don't want to go on a date with you. The only way you'll know for a fact that someone is open to going on a date with you is you ask them (or they ask you.) Other than that, you're just trying to go by ~signals~ and from what it sounds like you're not great at reading them, and if you're not great at that it's better for you to take a much more direct route and if you meet someone cute and single who you have at least a bit of rapport with, just ask.
Also, don't ask people to ask other people out for you or if they like you or whatever. I'm sure there are some women who would find that flattering (or at least inoffensive,) but self-confidence is attractive and not being able to do your own work, as it were, is demonstrating the opposite of self-confidence. I'm not saying that displaying confidence in this way will necessarily cause someone go from not wanting to go on a date to wanting to go on a date, but hiding behind another person can definitely wreck your chances if it turns out they would have been open to go on a date if you'd just asked them yourself.
posted by griphus at 12:14 PM on April 8, 2016 [19 favorites]
Awhile back I read some advice on some fitness guru's blog regarding me asking out women at the gym that I thought was excellent. He told men not to ask a woman out the first time they see her. He said something along the lines of, "Women need time to feel comfortable with a man and to feel there's some connection between them before they are ready to commit to spending several hours him. Let her see you a few times, then try talking to her, then talk to her several times, and if that's going well, then ask her out."
As a heterosexual woman, I'd say this advice is dead on. My own approach when I'm interested in a man is to just be friendly, like I would with a woman I'd like to be friends with, and if he's meeting me halfway, to gradually escalate things. If he isn't showing interest, I let it drop and there's no harm done -- I don't feel like I've been rejected because I haven't made any explicit offers. If asking women out is too fraught an endeavour for you, make it your goal to simply talk to them and get to know them and to let things proceed naturally from there. I think you'll find it's a more comfortable approach for both parties, and it will lead to better quality dates, because you won't be asking anyone out until you are sure that you both enjoy talking to one another.
posted by orange swan at 12:24 PM on April 8, 2016 [42 favorites]
As a heterosexual woman, I'd say this advice is dead on. My own approach when I'm interested in a man is to just be friendly, like I would with a woman I'd like to be friends with, and if he's meeting me halfway, to gradually escalate things. If he isn't showing interest, I let it drop and there's no harm done -- I don't feel like I've been rejected because I haven't made any explicit offers. If asking women out is too fraught an endeavour for you, make it your goal to simply talk to them and get to know them and to let things proceed naturally from there. I think you'll find it's a more comfortable approach for both parties, and it will lead to better quality dates, because you won't be asking anyone out until you are sure that you both enjoy talking to one another.
posted by orange swan at 12:24 PM on April 8, 2016 [42 favorites]
Yeah, rejections happen way more often than scores to most men. (Unless you've got something really obvious going for you; famous, supermodel looks, obviously rich etc.) That means that each "no thanks" brings you one step closer to a "yes".
The measure of success at dating is not how frequently you get first dates, it's how well you pick your dates, how good you are at recognizing the right person for you. The one you really like because of who she is. The one who signals that she likes you. The one who is a good fit for you. And the only way to become this successful is by getting it wrong a lot, first!
posted by Omnomnom at 12:49 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
The measure of success at dating is not how frequently you get first dates, it's how well you pick your dates, how good you are at recognizing the right person for you. The one you really like because of who she is. The one who signals that she likes you. The one who is a good fit for you. And the only way to become this successful is by getting it wrong a lot, first!
posted by Omnomnom at 12:49 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
girls label guys as nice guys as a nice way of saying they're not attracted to you or basically because they can't find anything positive to say.
You're just absorbing some weird generalized negativity and allowing that to change your view of who you are. Being nice is a good thing and being a good person is a good thing. It doesn't mean they're not attracted to you, but it might mean they never thought of you in that way which isn't the same thing. Women aren't just flies hovering around that become attracted to a man and then gravitate towards them. At least, it's not helpful to think of it in this way. There's no point in trying to 'Attract 'Women"' because all women are different. So just try to connect with people by being sweet, genuine, sincere, and without expectations. One way to connect with people is by sharing vulnerability, for example talking about how you feel, sharing a story of something that happened to you, making a joke, etc. But even then, just because you have that initial connection, doesn't mean you automatically progress. It's not a goal oriented progression, it's more like a delicate dance where you have to keep positivity and tenacity while respecting the other person's unique wishes and desires. If you get rejected, don't get all sulky and self pitying, because those are the qualities that ACTUALLY repel 'women'
posted by winterportage at 12:51 PM on April 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
You're just absorbing some weird generalized negativity and allowing that to change your view of who you are. Being nice is a good thing and being a good person is a good thing. It doesn't mean they're not attracted to you, but it might mean they never thought of you in that way which isn't the same thing. Women aren't just flies hovering around that become attracted to a man and then gravitate towards them. At least, it's not helpful to think of it in this way. There's no point in trying to 'Attract 'Women"' because all women are different. So just try to connect with people by being sweet, genuine, sincere, and without expectations. One way to connect with people is by sharing vulnerability, for example talking about how you feel, sharing a story of something that happened to you, making a joke, etc. But even then, just because you have that initial connection, doesn't mean you automatically progress. It's not a goal oriented progression, it's more like a delicate dance where you have to keep positivity and tenacity while respecting the other person's unique wishes and desires. If you get rejected, don't get all sulky and self pitying, because those are the qualities that ACTUALLY repel 'women'
posted by winterportage at 12:51 PM on April 8, 2016 [11 favorites]
One of the things I like about sparklemotion's example is that it's specific. Asking "would you like to do x at time y?" has the advantage that they can claim to be busy at time y, which saves face for them, which makes you look better in the long run. If they would like to date you, they will probably kind of suggest it then. (Very conservatively raised women may be less then clear about this, because they aren't supposed to ever say No or to ask for dates; I would try offering a different event, about two weeks later, if I thought this might be the case.)
More abstractly, MFK Fisher says approximately that you seduce people by being safe and unpredictable at the same time -- ideally they have no idea what will happen with you, but are sure it won't hurt or embarrass them. This is nearly impossible for those of us who aren't natural charmers, but paying some attention to both halves has worked for me.
posted by clew at 12:53 PM on April 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
More abstractly, MFK Fisher says approximately that you seduce people by being safe and unpredictable at the same time -- ideally they have no idea what will happen with you, but are sure it won't hurt or embarrass them. This is nearly impossible for those of us who aren't natural charmers, but paying some attention to both halves has worked for me.
posted by clew at 12:53 PM on April 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Number 1: Banish high school from your mind. You sound like you're stuck at 17 and want a do-over. Guess what, 17 is gone. Totally and utterly blasted away. You will be dating women, not girls. You are a man, not a boy. You will never be 17 again, thank god. Neither will your dates. Embrace this. Life is not high school!
Number 2: How good are you at having conversations? Can you talk to anyone? Practice, practice practice. Practice on old ladies at the park. On friends of friends. Go everywhere and meet everyone you possible can. Say yes to every. single. social. invitation. you. ever. get. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO "I don't feel like it." Practice!!! Practice talking to people you have nothing in common with! Practice talking to people in bad moods! Practice talking to people you don't like! Get so that you feel that you are an advanced conversation-haver.
Number 3: What do you know about human psychology? Have you ever taken a psychology course? Pick up a book from the library or do research online. DO NOT focus on "female psychology" or bullshit like that. Human psychology. All human psychology. Emotions. Development of the personality. Personality differences. Socialization. Learn this stuff!
There was a website I used to like called "succeedsocially.com" - it may still be around and has lots of really good advice for late bloomers.
TL;DR: Women are people. That's it, that's the secret. That's all. How do you know your friends like you? How do you know your mom likes you? There you go.
posted by quincunx at 12:56 PM on April 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
Number 2: How good are you at having conversations? Can you talk to anyone? Practice, practice practice. Practice on old ladies at the park. On friends of friends. Go everywhere and meet everyone you possible can. Say yes to every. single. social. invitation. you. ever. get. NO EXCEPTIONS. NO "I don't feel like it." Practice!!! Practice talking to people you have nothing in common with! Practice talking to people in bad moods! Practice talking to people you don't like! Get so that you feel that you are an advanced conversation-haver.
Number 3: What do you know about human psychology? Have you ever taken a psychology course? Pick up a book from the library or do research online. DO NOT focus on "female psychology" or bullshit like that. Human psychology. All human psychology. Emotions. Development of the personality. Personality differences. Socialization. Learn this stuff!
There was a website I used to like called "succeedsocially.com" - it may still be around and has lots of really good advice for late bloomers.
TL;DR: Women are people. That's it, that's the secret. That's all. How do you know your friends like you? How do you know your mom likes you? There you go.
posted by quincunx at 12:56 PM on April 8, 2016 [26 favorites]
Rejection is a part of the system. Not dating because you're terrified of getting turned down for a date (as in, being terrified of other people having their own agency and getting to make their own decisions about their lives) is like not applying for jobs because you're afraid you won't get them. Rejection may sting a little, but it doesn't actually injure you.
But anyway, don't play games. If you have a good vibe with someone, ask them if they want to go out on a date. The first ask can be a coffee date, or other out-in-public daytime event, just use the word date. Do not be deliberately ambiguous so you can turn around later and claim no, stupid, you didn't mean a date-date it's not like you were interested or something ha ha.
"Person, would you be interested in a coffee date, maybe next Saturday?"
"Yes, that sounds nice." or "No, I don't want to have a date with you for reasons that aren't your business or there for you to talk me out of, but that's so kind of you to ask so considerately."
Your only caveat there is to make sure you are not inadvertently creeping when you do this. Don't do it to people who are lower-status than you (working directly for you, serving you, otherwise dependent on your good will for their income or personal safety), don't corner people so they feel they must say yes to remain safe.
Remember: you want to engage in a mutual interaction with someone, not force or trick them. So a no answer is fine, because that would be a terrible date if they said yes when they meant no. And it's okay, because women aren't an interchangeable monolith, and you want to go out with someone who is inclined to be into you, not just $WOMAN_PERSON who is breathing.
And don't wait forever. I mean, women will absolutely think you're gross if you ask them out on sight, because they know it's just about their looks, but if you have an actual interesting two-way connection with someone and sit on it for two months, they will have moved on from thinking of you as anything other than an acquaintance, and many people are disinclined to back up once they've reached that point.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:57 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
But anyway, don't play games. If you have a good vibe with someone, ask them if they want to go out on a date. The first ask can be a coffee date, or other out-in-public daytime event, just use the word date. Do not be deliberately ambiguous so you can turn around later and claim no, stupid, you didn't mean a date-date it's not like you were interested or something ha ha.
"Person, would you be interested in a coffee date, maybe next Saturday?"
"Yes, that sounds nice." or "No, I don't want to have a date with you for reasons that aren't your business or there for you to talk me out of, but that's so kind of you to ask so considerately."
Your only caveat there is to make sure you are not inadvertently creeping when you do this. Don't do it to people who are lower-status than you (working directly for you, serving you, otherwise dependent on your good will for their income or personal safety), don't corner people so they feel they must say yes to remain safe.
Remember: you want to engage in a mutual interaction with someone, not force or trick them. So a no answer is fine, because that would be a terrible date if they said yes when they meant no. And it's okay, because women aren't an interchangeable monolith, and you want to go out with someone who is inclined to be into you, not just $WOMAN_PERSON who is breathing.
And don't wait forever. I mean, women will absolutely think you're gross if you ask them out on sight, because they know it's just about their looks, but if you have an actual interesting two-way connection with someone and sit on it for two months, they will have moved on from thinking of you as anything other than an acquaintance, and many people are disinclined to back up once they've reached that point.
posted by Lyn Never at 12:57 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you want to keep the pressure on yourself (and her) really low, invite her out with your friends, or to a group event where she can interact with others. This helps you see more what she's like, and let you decide if you're into each other.
Also check: http://refinedself.com/
posted by 4midori at 12:59 PM on April 8, 2016
Also check: http://refinedself.com/
posted by 4midori at 12:59 PM on April 8, 2016
OH. JUST. STOP.
Women do not prefer assholes to nice people.
The reason you have bad luck with women is not because you are "nice".
The reason you have bad luck with women probably isn't because of childhood trauma, or shyness, or your parents, or any other aspect of you or thing you're hung up about.
For one thing, women are individuals. Woman A might not be into you, but Woman B might be. An approach that would turn Woman C off would be exactly the right thing to say to Woman D. So there's no answer to your question. There's no way to get "women" to like you, or to know if "women" are into you.
My actual advice: ask more women out. The real reason you feel rejected is right there in what you said about asking women out. "The few times..." If you ask more women out, more will say yes. It's a matter of statistics. Also, if you ask more women out, the stakes will get lower (you'll worry less about any one woman turning you down), you'll get more comfortable with it, and it'll become easier to tell whether you actually have a chance with the woman in question.
More advice: get female friends. Women signal that they like someone the same way all human beings do. We're not an alien species. If you knew more women better, you probably would feel more relaxed about dealing with us, and it would become more obvious that we're people.
posted by Sara C. at 1:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
Women do not prefer assholes to nice people.
The reason you have bad luck with women is not because you are "nice".
The reason you have bad luck with women probably isn't because of childhood trauma, or shyness, or your parents, or any other aspect of you or thing you're hung up about.
For one thing, women are individuals. Woman A might not be into you, but Woman B might be. An approach that would turn Woman C off would be exactly the right thing to say to Woman D. So there's no answer to your question. There's no way to get "women" to like you, or to know if "women" are into you.
My actual advice: ask more women out. The real reason you feel rejected is right there in what you said about asking women out. "The few times..." If you ask more women out, more will say yes. It's a matter of statistics. Also, if you ask more women out, the stakes will get lower (you'll worry less about any one woman turning you down), you'll get more comfortable with it, and it'll become easier to tell whether you actually have a chance with the woman in question.
More advice: get female friends. Women signal that they like someone the same way all human beings do. We're not an alien species. If you knew more women better, you probably would feel more relaxed about dealing with us, and it would become more obvious that we're people.
posted by Sara C. at 1:13 PM on April 8, 2016 [30 favorites]
Yep, you've got to get to know someone a bit first, and then, if it's going well, think (very carefully!) about what you might want to do with the person that you've gotten to know and things have gone well with.
Try and find something that you'll both enjoy and that is in public (don't ask someone to come over for dinner or a movie on a first date). Bonus points if this date is with a couple of other people; there's less pressure that way, and it shows her that you've got a nice social circle going. Of course, you have to be careful about who you invite on your date as well, so vet your friends carefully.
Having a good rapport with someone and solid and mutually acceptable plans for a first date will increase your odds dramatically of getting your foot in the door. Once you've done that, you've won most of the battle, or at least the opening salvo. Even if nothing comes from that first date, over time your ease and dating skills will develop and you'll feel much more comfortable.
The keys are to not take rejection personally (as other have said, it's going to happen) and just don't care too much. If you put too much thought into it, the only result will be that you'll feel more uncertain and women will pick up on that. Be confident. You've got this!
posted by Fister Roboto at 1:15 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Try and find something that you'll both enjoy and that is in public (don't ask someone to come over for dinner or a movie on a first date). Bonus points if this date is with a couple of other people; there's less pressure that way, and it shows her that you've got a nice social circle going. Of course, you have to be careful about who you invite on your date as well, so vet your friends carefully.
Having a good rapport with someone and solid and mutually acceptable plans for a first date will increase your odds dramatically of getting your foot in the door. Once you've done that, you've won most of the battle, or at least the opening salvo. Even if nothing comes from that first date, over time your ease and dating skills will develop and you'll feel much more comfortable.
The keys are to not take rejection personally (as other have said, it's going to happen) and just don't care too much. If you put too much thought into it, the only result will be that you'll feel more uncertain and women will pick up on that. Be confident. You've got this!
posted by Fister Roboto at 1:15 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
For starters girls label guys nice guys, because they are nice guys. It doesn't have any secret meaning & isn't connected to their wanting to date you or not. When did being a nice guy become a bad thing? Do you want them to call you an asshole? You won't get any more dates but would that really make you feel better about yourself? Trust me the person "cluing you in" had no more idea than you do.
You really need to go & read everything Dr Nerdlove has written. The name can be a little off putting but he really covers a lot of the shy, nervous guys that think they can't get dates subject with some really good well thought out advice. If nothing else it will help you realize that you are not alone, you are not stuck as the person you were in high school and that women are people too with their own fears etc they are trying to deal with while dating.
posted by wwax at 1:20 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
You really need to go & read everything Dr Nerdlove has written. The name can be a little off putting but he really covers a lot of the shy, nervous guys that think they can't get dates subject with some really good well thought out advice. If nothing else it will help you realize that you are not alone, you are not stuck as the person you were in high school and that women are people too with their own fears etc they are trying to deal with while dating.
posted by wwax at 1:20 PM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
"I've also had guys jokingly ask other girls if they liked me and of course the girls are absolutely adamant that don't."
If your friends are doing this now, you need new friends. This is high school behavior, and no grownup women are going to respond positively to it.
posted by FencingGal at 1:26 PM on April 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
If your friends are doing this now, you need new friends. This is high school behavior, and no grownup women are going to respond positively to it.
posted by FencingGal at 1:26 PM on April 8, 2016 [22 favorites]
One of the bonuses of online dating is that it's mostly moved to a model where you can mutually match before any communication even takes place. (This isn't just Tinder, it's OKCupid and a few other services too). This really removes the mystery of figuring out whether this person likes you enough to go on a date with you; if you've both matched and chatting seems to be going well, it's pretty much a clear go-ahead to ask the person out, with a minimum of existential trauma. They might still say no, of course, but it's the most painless way to go on dates that I can think of.
posted by naju at 1:30 PM on April 8, 2016
posted by naju at 1:30 PM on April 8, 2016
girls label guys as nice guys as a nice way of saying they're not attracted to you or basically because they can't find anything positive to say.
Just to reaffirm what others have said about that remark: it's what some guys tell themselves to feel better. But every woman I know loves nice guys: as friends, as coworkers, as neighbors, as lovers, as partners, as husbands, as everything.
I hope you'll see that the subtext of a lot of what others have said here is that everybody who has ever wanted to date has gone through what you're going through. Even the good-looking ones! It's like birth and death: if you want to live a full life, this is part of it. "Do they like me?" is right up there with the big questions like "Why are we here?" Know that you're joining the billions of humans who have had to go through the same thing!
You can do this. Be ready to hear "no" as "No. I bet there's someone out there who is perfect for you -- but I'm not her." Roll with it, have fun with it, enjoy the process. You can do it!
posted by Mo Nickels at 1:32 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just to reaffirm what others have said about that remark: it's what some guys tell themselves to feel better. But every woman I know loves nice guys: as friends, as coworkers, as neighbors, as lovers, as partners, as husbands, as everything.
I hope you'll see that the subtext of a lot of what others have said here is that everybody who has ever wanted to date has gone through what you're going through. Even the good-looking ones! It's like birth and death: if you want to live a full life, this is part of it. "Do they like me?" is right up there with the big questions like "Why are we here?" Know that you're joining the billions of humans who have had to go through the same thing!
You can do this. Be ready to hear "no" as "No. I bet there's someone out there who is perfect for you -- but I'm not her." Roll with it, have fun with it, enjoy the process. You can do it!
posted by Mo Nickels at 1:32 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
To expand on the "nice guy" problem, there are authentic, self assured guys who are nice. (Those are not the ones complaining about their niceness being a handicap. Because niceness is not their defining characteristic.) And then there are those who are so desparate to get a date with a woman - any woman who will have them - that they bury their entire personality under servile niceness. They want to be liked so much, they lose all personality. Their problem is not that they're nice. Their problem is that they have nothing else to commend them.
This is a problem because a) it's bland and b) it's manipulative and women are put off by it.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:47 PM on April 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
This is a problem because a) it's bland and b) it's manipulative and women are put off by it.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:47 PM on April 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Are you sure your friends were really joking and not legit trying to set you up? If they were really trying to backchannel for you, that can actually be useful for situations where you're all part of a close-knit group or shared activity. The way you do this is that if you're interested in a friend of a friend, you can quietly mention to the first friend, "hey, your friend seems cool, what's her deal?" What your friend is then supposed to do is then at some point ask their friend "hey what do you think of OP?" and gauge their reaction and then report back to you. It does sound kind of junior high, but the extra layer of communication does serve a purpose in this specific type of situation: it indicates that you are going out of your way not to be a creeper, and signals that if the answer is "no" you'll pretend nothing happened as opposed to making it weird. But if this kind of interaction isn't what you mean, and your friends are actually performing a kind of relational aggression, that's extremely messed up and you should dump those friends.
Anyway, the above advice is mostly for more sensitive situations where you would potentially have to interact with this person a lot even if the answer is "no" and so you want to take extra pains not to make it awkward for them. For casual acquaintances, as others have said, it's fine to explicitly ask someone out on a date after getting to know them a bit, and it would probably be a good idea for you to try that out. Getting more comfortable with rejection and less afraid of judgement will help you take rejection less personally, and it will also help you be yourself talking to people, and that starts a virtuous cycle where you start to attract the type of people that are interested in who you really are.
posted by en forme de poire at 1:50 PM on April 8, 2016
Anyway, the above advice is mostly for more sensitive situations where you would potentially have to interact with this person a lot even if the answer is "no" and so you want to take extra pains not to make it awkward for them. For casual acquaintances, as others have said, it's fine to explicitly ask someone out on a date after getting to know them a bit, and it would probably be a good idea for you to try that out. Getting more comfortable with rejection and less afraid of judgement will help you take rejection less personally, and it will also help you be yourself talking to people, and that starts a virtuous cycle where you start to attract the type of people that are interested in who you really are.
posted by en forme de poire at 1:50 PM on April 8, 2016
In this day of the internet if you're afraid of rejection why not do eHarmony or OKCupid or Match or heaven help us, Tinder? You can order up the type of person you like, engage superficially and meet for coffee dates until something clicks. It's low risk and it can result in high reward.
One thing I like about it is that you can put out there what you're looking for and see what others are looking for. If religion is important to you, you can ask for that. If education is, ditto. You can put in for certain body types, or hair color or whatever. That's not to say that if you're super specific that you'll get a flood of women beating a path to your door, but those who are inclined to dismiss you won't swipe right or whatever it is that people do on these things. You can also say that you're only into dating, or only into marriage or into casual or whatever it is that you're into.
I met Husbunny in a chat room. Our friends met on eHarmony. Like Willy Sutton says, rob banks, that's where the money is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:58 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
One thing I like about it is that you can put out there what you're looking for and see what others are looking for. If religion is important to you, you can ask for that. If education is, ditto. You can put in for certain body types, or hair color or whatever. That's not to say that if you're super specific that you'll get a flood of women beating a path to your door, but those who are inclined to dismiss you won't swipe right or whatever it is that people do on these things. You can also say that you're only into dating, or only into marriage or into casual or whatever it is that you're into.
I met Husbunny in a chat room. Our friends met on eHarmony. Like Willy Sutton says, rob banks, that's where the money is.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 1:58 PM on April 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I've also had guys jokingly ask other girls if they liked me and of course the girls are absolutely adamant that don't."
Also, I'm a girl and just to confuse things more, this is probably the EXACT reaction I would have if I was actually seriously interested in a guy. There's no way I would say yes if his friend was asking me.
These kinds of "tests" don't do anyone any favours and that's why most of us grow out of them once we leave school.
posted by JenThePro at 2:31 PM on April 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also, I'm a girl and just to confuse things more, this is probably the EXACT reaction I would have if I was actually seriously interested in a guy. There's no way I would say yes if his friend was asking me.
These kinds of "tests" don't do anyone any favours and that's why most of us grow out of them once we leave school.
posted by JenThePro at 2:31 PM on April 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
Here's the problem buried in 'nice guy': "If I'm such a nice guy, how come she won't go out with me??"
Because she has more specific requirements than that. She's not required by law to go out with any man who asks so long as he is a) breathing, b) not on fire, c) nice. We get a say! We are allowed a preference of personality, background, religion, general demeanor, looks, sparks, and many other things.
My husband is super nice. My male friends are super nice, but I am not interested in dating them (even if I wasn't married - they're not really my type) and most of them I did not date back when that was an option. A few of them, I did, reinforcing the fact that for me there is a window of opportunity when I first meet someone where we're likely to connect in a way conducive to some kind of romance, and then the window closes and after that there's just not much of a fit. That doesn't make them not-nice, but it does make them not-candidates. (And I won't even go into the fact that my lady friends are also fantastic, and I am queer and so are many of them, and yet we are all just friends. Because that's what we chose.)
Why my husband? Dunno. There was absolutely a spark when we met, and because of that I avoided him for six months while he dealt with a nasty breakup. It worked out. But nice was the beginning of the list, not the entire list.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
Because she has more specific requirements than that. She's not required by law to go out with any man who asks so long as he is a) breathing, b) not on fire, c) nice. We get a say! We are allowed a preference of personality, background, religion, general demeanor, looks, sparks, and many other things.
My husband is super nice. My male friends are super nice, but I am not interested in dating them (even if I wasn't married - they're not really my type) and most of them I did not date back when that was an option. A few of them, I did, reinforcing the fact that for me there is a window of opportunity when I first meet someone where we're likely to connect in a way conducive to some kind of romance, and then the window closes and after that there's just not much of a fit. That doesn't make them not-nice, but it does make them not-candidates. (And I won't even go into the fact that my lady friends are also fantastic, and I am queer and so are many of them, and yet we are all just friends. Because that's what we chose.)
Why my husband? Dunno. There was absolutely a spark when we met, and because of that I avoided him for six months while he dealt with a nasty breakup. It worked out. But nice was the beginning of the list, not the entire list.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:12 PM on April 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
I have had two friends who just could not get dates - they were both nervy and kind of odd in their behavior, had some manners problems and just....I dunno, seemed kind of clammy? I used to worry a bit about them.
Now both of them are in happy, long-term relationships with nice, socially-successful, appealing people. One of them went on a positive dating spree before settling down in the relationship, seemingly succeeding with every single person they asked out.
What happened? Both of them asked out, like, about a million people. They got rejected a lot at first, and I noticed that for both of them, rejection stopped being super scary. Both of them also spent a lot of time being social - volunteering, playing games and sports, doing community stuff, just generally building up their life skills. Both went from being sort of shy and flinchy to being actually quite brave about things in general. I think both of them are, fundamentally, pretty stubborn people, and that helped. Neither is rich, and while I find both attractive, they aren't going to be offered modeling contracts. These changes happened for them in their late twenties/early thirties.
In short, you can go from being the kind of person who your friends think will never, ever date to being a real Don Juan and/or having a great relationship.
In re high school: look, even in high school, no girl who thought you were cute was going to say in front of you "yes, he is totally hot!" That would be really weird! Saying someone is a nice guy can mean that's all they've got going for them, but it's also a way of saying "I am being put on the spot and asked for a really personal opinion that could embarrass me, so I will punt". I mean, in my entire life of crushes and dating, I have managed to respond to that situation by saying something flirty/attracted exactly once, and it was pretty weak sauce even then. Why not think of the HS thing as "it was weird for girls to be talking about me right in front of me, and of course they wouldn't be able to give a complete evaluation because that's not something we do".
NB: Both friends date women.
posted by Frowner at 3:39 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now both of them are in happy, long-term relationships with nice, socially-successful, appealing people. One of them went on a positive dating spree before settling down in the relationship, seemingly succeeding with every single person they asked out.
What happened? Both of them asked out, like, about a million people. They got rejected a lot at first, and I noticed that for both of them, rejection stopped being super scary. Both of them also spent a lot of time being social - volunteering, playing games and sports, doing community stuff, just generally building up their life skills. Both went from being sort of shy and flinchy to being actually quite brave about things in general. I think both of them are, fundamentally, pretty stubborn people, and that helped. Neither is rich, and while I find both attractive, they aren't going to be offered modeling contracts. These changes happened for them in their late twenties/early thirties.
In short, you can go from being the kind of person who your friends think will never, ever date to being a real Don Juan and/or having a great relationship.
In re high school: look, even in high school, no girl who thought you were cute was going to say in front of you "yes, he is totally hot!" That would be really weird! Saying someone is a nice guy can mean that's all they've got going for them, but it's also a way of saying "I am being put on the spot and asked for a really personal opinion that could embarrass me, so I will punt". I mean, in my entire life of crushes and dating, I have managed to respond to that situation by saying something flirty/attracted exactly once, and it was pretty weak sauce even then. Why not think of the HS thing as "it was weird for girls to be talking about me right in front of me, and of course they wouldn't be able to give a complete evaluation because that's not something we do".
NB: Both friends date women.
posted by Frowner at 3:39 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
"nice" is what you say when you hate someone but need to be polite
Whoa. I would say nice iff the person was nice. "Nice enough" if I hadn't particularly thought about them, and something like "Smith! Your [postdoc | first cousin | best friend ], yes?" if I were covering for loathing.
posted by clew at 3:46 PM on April 8, 2016
Whoa. I would say nice iff the person was nice. "Nice enough" if I hadn't particularly thought about them, and something like "Smith! Your [postdoc | first cousin | best friend ], yes?" if I were covering for loathing.
posted by clew at 3:46 PM on April 8, 2016
I wasn't popular in high school (as in, almost didn't make it to the senior prom). I had friends but romantically wasn't in particular demand. Not in college so much either, although I did date a few guys and eventually met the sweet man who became my husband (which is an entirely different story). Anyway, want to Nth the zillion comments that you find out if a woman is willing to date you by asking her. Usually, the dating comes first and the really liking after. Sometimes the really liking comes first and then the dating.
Regardless, asking people out is a skill that anyone can learn. There's lots of excellent advice upthread about how to learn that skill. You need more than knowing how to ask women out on dates, of course. There's a stereotype that women (as if there is only one type--so WRONG!) are attracted to so-called bad boys. First off, this is not true; secondly, anyone attracted to "bad" (as in, self-destructive, arrogant, disrespectful assholes) is a person with low self-esteem who you don't want to date anyway.
When it comes to dating grownups who aren't interested in games, being nice is an advantage. As noted above, it's not the only thing that people find attractive and you do need other qualities as well. A sense of humour, perhaps. Or a quality of kindness. Or a love of animals. Or whatever it is that makes you, you.
Finally, you can make yourself more attractive by being or becoming a socially self-sufficient person who goes out and does things on your own and/or with non-romantic friends. Super needy, clinging, nobody-will-ever-love-me types are scary. Emotionally healthy people tend to run in the opposite direction of folks like that (I used to be one of those scary, needy, clingy people so I speak from experience). Paradoxically, one the the best ways of making yourself attractive to others is by learning to feel comfortable in your own company, enjoying doing things on your own, and developing personal interests and/or hobbies. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:27 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Regardless, asking people out is a skill that anyone can learn. There's lots of excellent advice upthread about how to learn that skill. You need more than knowing how to ask women out on dates, of course. There's a stereotype that women (as if there is only one type--so WRONG!) are attracted to so-called bad boys. First off, this is not true; secondly, anyone attracted to "bad" (as in, self-destructive, arrogant, disrespectful assholes) is a person with low self-esteem who you don't want to date anyway.
When it comes to dating grownups who aren't interested in games, being nice is an advantage. As noted above, it's not the only thing that people find attractive and you do need other qualities as well. A sense of humour, perhaps. Or a quality of kindness. Or a love of animals. Or whatever it is that makes you, you.
Finally, you can make yourself more attractive by being or becoming a socially self-sufficient person who goes out and does things on your own and/or with non-romantic friends. Super needy, clinging, nobody-will-ever-love-me types are scary. Emotionally healthy people tend to run in the opposite direction of folks like that (I used to be one of those scary, needy, clingy people so I speak from experience). Paradoxically, one the the best ways of making yourself attractive to others is by learning to feel comfortable in your own company, enjoying doing things on your own, and developing personal interests and/or hobbies. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 4:27 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Coming from a background like that, I internalized the need to figure out if she would say yes BEFORE I asked. Because that's how things were for me: figure out what the people around me are thinking before asking anything.
That's not how it is. In reality, you just ask nicely when it feels like that's what you want to do.
Good news: the stakes are not as high as I thought they were. And like a roller coaster, it is fun once it gets going.
I didn't ride a roller coaster until I was 24, of course. But they're really fun.
posted by billjings at 5:32 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's not how it is. In reality, you just ask nicely when it feels like that's what you want to do.
Good news: the stakes are not as high as I thought they were. And like a roller coaster, it is fun once it gets going.
I didn't ride a roller coaster until I was 24, of course. But they're really fun.
posted by billjings at 5:32 PM on April 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I found online dating helped a lot, too, btw. Ask for coffee or video chat.
posted by billjings at 5:33 PM on April 8, 2016
posted by billjings at 5:33 PM on April 8, 2016
I second reading Doctor Nerdlove. He will tell you everything you need to know.
I also agree with:
(a) No girl wants to answer on the spot if she likes a guy or not if she knows he's gonna hear about it. That's super uncomfortable.
(b) There are many definitions of "nice guy."
* Genuine nice guy
* Nice as in, I don't know him very well or have much of an opinion about him but he seems nice enough.
* "Nice Guy" (usually capitalized like that) as defined by Heartless Bitches. These are the problematic ones, that usually boil down to (a) desperate for anybody, (b) think that if they're nice to a lady she'll roll over and boink him, and (c) get super upset in possibly scary ways if she doesn't.
You want to be nice guy a or b, not the third one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also agree with:
(a) No girl wants to answer on the spot if she likes a guy or not if she knows he's gonna hear about it. That's super uncomfortable.
(b) There are many definitions of "nice guy."
* Genuine nice guy
* Nice as in, I don't know him very well or have much of an opinion about him but he seems nice enough.
* "Nice Guy" (usually capitalized like that) as defined by Heartless Bitches. These are the problematic ones, that usually boil down to (a) desperate for anybody, (b) think that if they're nice to a lady she'll roll over and boink him, and (c) get super upset in possibly scary ways if she doesn't.
You want to be nice guy a or b, not the third one.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on April 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am a woman. I was raised in a very conservative religious home and didn't have a lot of dating experience until much later than my peers. i'm generally not so great with the signal stuff in person - sending them or reading them. Online dating has been a godsend for me - takes a lot of the guesswork out of it, at least as far as figuring out whether people are interested in dating me or not.
Everyone is different. Some people indicate interest through a light touch on the arm - some people touch everyone on the arm. I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know that this stuff can be complicated for just about everyone. Good luck!
posted by bunderful at 7:47 PM on April 8, 2016
Everyone is different. Some people indicate interest through a light touch on the arm - some people touch everyone on the arm. I'm not trying to discourage you, just letting you know that this stuff can be complicated for just about everyone. Good luck!
posted by bunderful at 7:47 PM on April 8, 2016
I think this nice guy discussion here is a bit of a distraction. You write:
posted by Leontine at 7:50 PM on April 8, 2016
"The few times I've asked a woman out I've been turned down."The operative words here are "few times." What, like three women? Dating is a numbers game. Ask out many, many more women (respectfully, of course) and get yourself out there. Even if a woman says no, you might feel a little embarrassed or lose a little face, but no big deal. Think of it as practice for the next time you ask someone out. Start slow, but don't be afraid of asking someone out if you think you might like her. You'll build confidence in yourself.
"So I'm just wondering what are the signs that a woman is open to you? How do you know that a woman is open to dating you?"Ask her.
posted by Leontine at 7:50 PM on April 8, 2016
You need to ask more women. And not just the ones you are crushing on, ask women you find interesting but aren't falling for madly. Don't get hung up on any one person for a while. Get so many rejections that they just fall right off and, besides, you are busy spending time with several ladies, so, it doesn't matter that a few of them weren't interested. Don't get worried about getting friend-zoned. Really, that's not a bad thing. More lady friends leads to more friends who would like to see you happy and maybe they have connections with single women who they think might be a good match. I was fucking miserable and alone until I forced myself to stop getting hung up on one person and start trying out a lot of people. The rejection SUCKED at first but then it didn't. You get used to it and it becomes a non-issue. And you are so young, you have so much time to be mellow and happy about meeting people. Don't make yourself miserable like I did, always thinking I was behind all my peers and running out of time because that's just silly.
posted by Foam Pants at 1:52 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Foam Pants at 1:52 AM on April 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would differ from some of the above in one respect. I think explicitly using the word “date” when asking someone out sounds awkward.
I have heard (not having dated myself in over 30 years) that asking a woman to lunch is “lighter” than asking her to dinner, and more likely to get a yes.
posted by yclipse at 4:45 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have heard (not having dated myself in over 30 years) that asking a woman to lunch is “lighter” than asking her to dinner, and more likely to get a yes.
posted by yclipse at 4:45 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I say this as a person who is/was very shy.
To an extent, your attractiveness is up to you: you can exercise, eat well, have interesting hobbies, etc. This doesn't mean everybody's going to be attracted to you, though, and that's only fair because not everybody is attractive to me, either. I have not had very much success ever convincing people to be into me if they weren't kind of into me in the first place. Even when people have been attracted to me, though, it's been very rare that they will chase me down and ask me out. You will, eventually, one way or another, have to use your words to ask them out, or do something that will put you at risk for rejection. And if you are rejected, be gracious; sometimes people change their minds, but they won't if you're a jerk about it.
Your parents, your high school experiences, and all that: those are in the past. They are beyond your control. Working on yourself to become a better person in the future is under your control. If you want to be more attractive, you can become more attractive.
About the whole 'nice' thing: I'm fortunate that I picked a sport where one of my coaches was super nice and also super successful in his dating life, so I never internalized any sort of negative views about being nice. To this day my wife says that she was drawn by the way that I am unthinkingly generous and thoughtful and all that jazz. It's just that being nice is not necessarily attractive on its own: my wife also really says she is into my shoulders and whatever.
I'll also say that as a shy person, online dating worked out for me.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:13 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
To an extent, your attractiveness is up to you: you can exercise, eat well, have interesting hobbies, etc. This doesn't mean everybody's going to be attracted to you, though, and that's only fair because not everybody is attractive to me, either. I have not had very much success ever convincing people to be into me if they weren't kind of into me in the first place. Even when people have been attracted to me, though, it's been very rare that they will chase me down and ask me out. You will, eventually, one way or another, have to use your words to ask them out, or do something that will put you at risk for rejection. And if you are rejected, be gracious; sometimes people change their minds, but they won't if you're a jerk about it.
Your parents, your high school experiences, and all that: those are in the past. They are beyond your control. Working on yourself to become a better person in the future is under your control. If you want to be more attractive, you can become more attractive.
About the whole 'nice' thing: I'm fortunate that I picked a sport where one of my coaches was super nice and also super successful in his dating life, so I never internalized any sort of negative views about being nice. To this day my wife says that she was drawn by the way that I am unthinkingly generous and thoughtful and all that jazz. It's just that being nice is not necessarily attractive on its own: my wife also really says she is into my shoulders and whatever.
I'll also say that as a shy person, online dating worked out for me.
posted by Comrade_robot at 5:13 AM on April 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Are you attracted to all of the women that you meet in your age range? What about 80%? What about 50%?
There's this strange idea that a woman should want to go out with you, and if she says no there's either something wrong with her, or something wrong with you. But women are not attracted to every "eligible" man, just like men are not attracted to every "eligible" woman. That's just how the world works.
Most people who are out there dating experience rejection, because the odds that two people are attracted to each other is rather low in the first place.
But apart from that, you really don't say much about yourself (other than you've been rejected a few times), or how you're meeting women, or how you're approaching them to ask them out. You could be doing just fine, or you could be doing something that repulses them. We wouldn't know from your post.
You really do need to get rid of the idea that there is one way to be attractive to women, though. Women are just as varied in their preferences as men are; we're people, after all. You're not looking for one of the interchangeable set of "women," you're looking for a woman who you click with.
What makes you attracted to a woman? Think about that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:11 PM on April 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's this strange idea that a woman should want to go out with you, and if she says no there's either something wrong with her, or something wrong with you. But women are not attracted to every "eligible" man, just like men are not attracted to every "eligible" woman. That's just how the world works.
Most people who are out there dating experience rejection, because the odds that two people are attracted to each other is rather low in the first place.
But apart from that, you really don't say much about yourself (other than you've been rejected a few times), or how you're meeting women, or how you're approaching them to ask them out. You could be doing just fine, or you could be doing something that repulses them. We wouldn't know from your post.
You really do need to get rid of the idea that there is one way to be attractive to women, though. Women are just as varied in their preferences as men are; we're people, after all. You're not looking for one of the interchangeable set of "women," you're looking for a woman who you click with.
What makes you attracted to a woman? Think about that.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 2:11 PM on April 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Some non-verbal cues are making repeated eye-contact while shyly smiling, touching her hair or neck while she's talking to you.. if she's seemingly nervous and laughs a lot in your presence, makes excuses to talk to you or always seems to engage you in conversation.. that list is probably endless. I think the best bet would be online dating, with clear and accurate photos (albeit flattering ones), and a fun and witty profile that describes your quirks, talents, and interests. There is somebody for everybody out there, that I do believe. Finding someone special can be a challenge for some people. We're not all blessed with good looks and natural charm. I think the key is to make yourself available to the opportunities out there, and to mingle with people who share similar interests. Online dating is great I think because you can look for a certain type of person, and get a preview of what they're all about before actually talking to them. For me it's the best way to go. I'm not a 10, but neither are most of the guys on dating sites. There are people who are delusional, and who expect to be with someone who is far more attractive than they are, and there are realistic people who are looking for a real partner and someone who is their equal. You just have to take your time and find someone with some real substance, someone who will appreciate you. If you don't get impatient, it will happen eventually.
posted by Avosunspin at 11:26 PM on April 9, 2016
posted by Avosunspin at 11:26 PM on April 9, 2016
Billjings wrote: Coming from a background like that, I internalized the need to figure out if she would say yes BEFORE I asked. Because that's how things were for me: figure out what the people around me are thinking before asking anything.
That's not how it is. In reality, you just ask nicely when it feels like that's what you want to do.
I agree with the second statement completely--that asking people out (and pretty much everything about relationships for that matter) is far more successful if you act based on what you want and what's going on with you, rather than whatever you think other people are thinking.
Because here's the thing: you dont know what they're thinking. You have absolutely no way to know. Human beings make up stories, it's how we understand the world. The way a person make up the stories about what other people think and do is heavily affected by their preconceived notions.
I want to dwell on this because you seem to have a preconceived notion that girls don't like you, aren't attracted to you, and won't accept your offer if you do ask them out. If that's the belief you have in your head, it's going to influence how you act and how you present yourself and will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So I have two suggestions:
One, if you identify with the notion that you're not going to ask someone out until you know what she's thinking, make a conscious effort to divest yourself of that thinking because you can't actually know until you do the experiment.
Two, start consciously working on perceiving of yourself as a guy women want to date. What would make you a great boyfriend--specifically, what are the aspects that would make YOU proud of what a great boyfriend you are. Are you kind and considerate? Are you romantic and creative? Do you present yourself well physically, your grooming, your clothes? Do you have cool interests and hobbies to share? Focus on those things, or build up the parts that you'd like to see improved, and start seeing yourself as great boyfriend material. That will rewrite the script in your head, and THAT will make a world of difference.
posted by Sublimity at 4:18 AM on April 10, 2016
That's not how it is. In reality, you just ask nicely when it feels like that's what you want to do.
I agree with the second statement completely--that asking people out (and pretty much everything about relationships for that matter) is far more successful if you act based on what you want and what's going on with you, rather than whatever you think other people are thinking.
Because here's the thing: you dont know what they're thinking. You have absolutely no way to know. Human beings make up stories, it's how we understand the world. The way a person make up the stories about what other people think and do is heavily affected by their preconceived notions.
I want to dwell on this because you seem to have a preconceived notion that girls don't like you, aren't attracted to you, and won't accept your offer if you do ask them out. If that's the belief you have in your head, it's going to influence how you act and how you present yourself and will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
So I have two suggestions:
One, if you identify with the notion that you're not going to ask someone out until you know what she's thinking, make a conscious effort to divest yourself of that thinking because you can't actually know until you do the experiment.
Two, start consciously working on perceiving of yourself as a guy women want to date. What would make you a great boyfriend--specifically, what are the aspects that would make YOU proud of what a great boyfriend you are. Are you kind and considerate? Are you romantic and creative? Do you present yourself well physically, your grooming, your clothes? Do you have cool interests and hobbies to share? Focus on those things, or build up the parts that you'd like to see improved, and start seeing yourself as great boyfriend material. That will rewrite the script in your head, and THAT will make a world of difference.
posted by Sublimity at 4:18 AM on April 10, 2016
It might help you to feel less stressed about the outcome of asking someone for a date if when you ask them out, you also give them permission to decline. Perhaps part of the stress you feel is because you are putting someone on the spot and are implying, somehow, that rejecting your offer is a Bad Thing. Reassure her that she doesn't need to worry about saying no, that there's no wrong answer to your question, that you guys will be as friendly as before. It's just an offer and it's up to her and you're fine with whatever she wants.
posted by conrad53 at 7:37 PM on April 10, 2016
posted by conrad53 at 7:37 PM on April 10, 2016
"And then there are those who are so desparate to get a date with a woman - any woman who will have them - that they bury their entire personality under servile niceness. They want to be liked so much, they lose all personality."
Omnomnom NAILED it. The Nice Guy™ trope that you might be skirting just a tiny little bit here (no shade--I'm on your side!) is a guy who blames women as a monolithic whole for not being interested in him when all he's ever presented of himself to every woman he meets is affable blandness. Don't be that guy. That guy sucks. You can be nice and not be that guy.
How to NOT be that guy: focus on being the best version of you that you can be. I know that sounds super trite, but nothing is more universally attractive than someone who is active in their interests and who is always working on improving themselves. This can mean different things for different people, but I'd say some good ground rules to follow would be to practice good hygiene, wear clothes that fit, and spend time on your unique hobbies and interests, especially if it gets you out of the house. Do that, and eventually some well-rounded and interesting lady will be hip to your groove, primarily because you will be a well-rounded and interesting individual yourself.
I'm seeing a lot of "just ask a bunch of women out" advice here, and while I agree that repeated rejection will take the sting out of a "no" real fast, I can't help but feel that this might be counter-intuitive to what it sounds like you want, which is a special lady who thinks you're tops.
If that is indeed your ultimate goal, and your goal in the meantime is to develop the social radar to figure out if maybe the special lady you're talking to is into you, I think throwing yourself at a gauntlet of ladies and seeing what sticks might not be the best tactic. At worst, that could make you pretty jaded over time. Dating can be stressful!
Real chemistry with a person is normally pretty obvious. However, I can certainly sympathize with the ambiguity of trying to decipher garden variety politeness from active interest, so here are maybe some things to keep watch for when chatting with that potential special lady. They're not universal on their own, but the more of these things you see, the more likely it is that she digs you:
-If it's hard to end a conversation with her because you're BOTH invested in keeping it going.
-Lots of smiles and laughs, lots of touching of her own face and hair.
-If at any point she ever mentions that she did something special for you or thought about you or something reminded her of you and you haven't known each other that long.
-If you ask her an open-ended question and she gives you a multi-sentence answer. It is a sign that she is willing to share more about herself with you.
-BANTER. This kind of ties in with conversation, but if you find it easy to trade little jokes back and forth, that is normally a very good sign.
If you're noticing that a lady seems to genuinely enjoy your company and you have a good rapport built up, go ahead and ask her if she wants to go do a thing with you sometime.
It can help to have a specific event in mind ("This distillery is doing a tasting party," "There's a [insert artist you like here] exhibit opening at the [museum] next week," "My favorite bar is hosting a [fun party type]", etc.) because if she's busy or if that's not her thing she has a way to be like "Ooh, I would but I'm busy, how about we ____ on ____ instead?" which is ANOTHER way to know if she's interested (she makes time to meet with you).
Finally, if you are looking to meet more ladies and find online dating stressful, find a fun hobby or class or sports league or workshop or something and go do that for awhile.
Worst case, you learn something new, which is interesting and gives you something to talk about later ("Oh, you like dancing! I took a salsa class once and had a total blast, even though I figured out it's not really for me. What kind of dancing do you like?" etc.)
Best case, you meet a fun lady there and you have something to bond over while you get to know each other. (And maybe you have a new hobby!)
Sorry for the short novel. Best of luck, dude.
posted by helloimjennsco at 11:24 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Omnomnom NAILED it. The Nice Guy™ trope that you might be skirting just a tiny little bit here (no shade--I'm on your side!) is a guy who blames women as a monolithic whole for not being interested in him when all he's ever presented of himself to every woman he meets is affable blandness. Don't be that guy. That guy sucks. You can be nice and not be that guy.
How to NOT be that guy: focus on being the best version of you that you can be. I know that sounds super trite, but nothing is more universally attractive than someone who is active in their interests and who is always working on improving themselves. This can mean different things for different people, but I'd say some good ground rules to follow would be to practice good hygiene, wear clothes that fit, and spend time on your unique hobbies and interests, especially if it gets you out of the house. Do that, and eventually some well-rounded and interesting lady will be hip to your groove, primarily because you will be a well-rounded and interesting individual yourself.
I'm seeing a lot of "just ask a bunch of women out" advice here, and while I agree that repeated rejection will take the sting out of a "no" real fast, I can't help but feel that this might be counter-intuitive to what it sounds like you want, which is a special lady who thinks you're tops.
If that is indeed your ultimate goal, and your goal in the meantime is to develop the social radar to figure out if maybe the special lady you're talking to is into you, I think throwing yourself at a gauntlet of ladies and seeing what sticks might not be the best tactic. At worst, that could make you pretty jaded over time. Dating can be stressful!
Real chemistry with a person is normally pretty obvious. However, I can certainly sympathize with the ambiguity of trying to decipher garden variety politeness from active interest, so here are maybe some things to keep watch for when chatting with that potential special lady. They're not universal on their own, but the more of these things you see, the more likely it is that she digs you:
-If it's hard to end a conversation with her because you're BOTH invested in keeping it going.
-Lots of smiles and laughs, lots of touching of her own face and hair.
-If at any point she ever mentions that she did something special for you or thought about you or something reminded her of you and you haven't known each other that long.
-If you ask her an open-ended question and she gives you a multi-sentence answer. It is a sign that she is willing to share more about herself with you.
-BANTER. This kind of ties in with conversation, but if you find it easy to trade little jokes back and forth, that is normally a very good sign.
If you're noticing that a lady seems to genuinely enjoy your company and you have a good rapport built up, go ahead and ask her if she wants to go do a thing with you sometime.
It can help to have a specific event in mind ("This distillery is doing a tasting party," "There's a [insert artist you like here] exhibit opening at the [museum] next week," "My favorite bar is hosting a [fun party type]", etc.) because if she's busy or if that's not her thing she has a way to be like "Ooh, I would but I'm busy, how about we ____ on ____ instead?" which is ANOTHER way to know if she's interested (she makes time to meet with you).
Finally, if you are looking to meet more ladies and find online dating stressful, find a fun hobby or class or sports league or workshop or something and go do that for awhile.
Worst case, you learn something new, which is interesting and gives you something to talk about later ("Oh, you like dancing! I took a salsa class once and had a total blast, even though I figured out it's not really for me. What kind of dancing do you like?" etc.)
Best case, you meet a fun lady there and you have something to bond over while you get to know each other. (And maybe you have a new hobby!)
Sorry for the short novel. Best of luck, dude.
posted by helloimjennsco at 11:24 AM on April 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by poe at 11:59 AM on April 8, 2016 [4 favorites]