Need permission for farm photo?

December 21, 2005 8:50 AM

Should I ask the farmer's permission before taking pictures on his field?

hi- i've long wanted to take some photos on some fields in my hometown in PA. i envision parking the car, hopping the fence, taking the shots (10 min), and getting out of there without messing with anything. do you think i'd better hunt down the farmer (or his family) and ask permission first, or just do it? on the one hand, it is trespassing, on the other, i'm just shooting landscapes (no people, equipment or houses), and maybe he wouldn't want to be hassled?

posted by cgs to grab bag (48 comments total)

You are trespassing. What do you think? Wouldn't you rather show some respect to the property owner and err on the side of neighbourly good graces than be hopping people's fences into their means of sustenance? Also, farmers tend to have dogs.
posted by spicynuts at 8:54 AM on December 21, 2005

Sans fence-hopping, you're in the clear. I'm not as sure about the fence-hopping part, though -- it couldn't hurt to ask, I suppose. In any case, you may find The Photographer's Right helpful — it's a one-sheet legal guide for photographers.
posted by Alex Handcoding at 8:55 AM on December 21, 2005

Always ask, especially if the land is fenced or if there is presently a crop growing. And never if there are animals present.
posted by nathan_teske at 8:59 AM on December 21, 2005

I think it would be best to ask first. You wouldn't be hassling anyone by asking politely, you'd be showing courtesy. If you "just do it," your actual risk is probably minimal (though I suppose there's a chance you could get shot at by a farmer who's had to deal with a lot of unwanted trespassing or vandalism), but I think the polite thing to do would be to ask first.
posted by Gator at 8:59 AM on December 21, 2005

Ask first...I grew up on a ranch and we would catch people trespassing (to go fishing on our land) and have no compulsion photographing them, their license plate, etc. and calling the cops.

And we had a rifle ready in case things got ugly.
posted by Kickstart70 at 9:01 AM on December 21, 2005

In my humble exerience, farmers own guns, and don't like trespassers. But they do like simple courtesy.
posted by o2b at 9:01 AM on December 21, 2005

Yes, ask first. I really hoped the above-the-fold question would turn out to be a euphemism.
posted by sohcahtoa at 9:03 AM on December 21, 2005

Yes, ask permission or keep out. Besides the obvious issue of common courtesy, if you're on his property without permission, you could get shot. In almost all cases, legally.
posted by mumeishi at 9:05 AM on December 21, 2005

Even if you didn't technically have to ask permission, you're asking for trouble by not doing so. The little bit of trouble you'd have to go to in order to knock on the door is worth your time.
posted by odinsdream at 9:07 AM on December 21, 2005

Since you are asking this question it leads me to believe that you fear this farmer might say "no."

If it were me I'd probably just do it without asking, because I'm lazy and the chances of being caught barely even register on the meter. But then again, asking wouldn't hurt whatsoever, and could possibly make you a friend or lead you to some interesting facts about the area/land.
posted by dead_ at 9:28 AM on December 21, 2005

The link Alex posted probably says this, but I can't open it. It's worth noting that you could take pictures *of* his fields, from the road, or the public side of the fence, without incurring any kind of penalty. It's going on his property (for photography or any other reason) that makes this trespassing.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:30 AM on December 21, 2005

Should I ask your permission before taking pictures in your back yard?

Of course you should ask. You cannot legally walk onto someone's property and use it for your purposes without their permission. If you do get permission, don't jump the fence; use a gate, and leave the gate the way you found it (open or closed).

I think what nathan_teske meant when he wrote And never if there are animals present was never go on the property, not never ask.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 9:36 AM on December 21, 2005

Sam, photoblogger at Daily Dose of Imagery did this exact thing a few weeks back. He found all 4 of his tire valves removed upon returning to his car. Apparently farmers find trespassing photographers somewhat uncool.
posted by GuyZero at 9:47 AM on December 21, 2005

I own 50 acres (not farmed right now) and I'd be very pissed off if I found someone photographing without asking me first. On the other hand I can't imagine saying no if they asked me and were bona fide.

(I do a lot of fence-hopping photography myself, but mainly on abandoned industrial sites where its next to impossible to find anyone who's in a position to grant/deny permission).

If the land *isn't* fenced and *isn't* marked 'no trespassing' (or with a red circle in Canada) then it is much less clear cut.
posted by unSane at 9:47 AM on December 21, 2005

Here's the exact farmer-vs-photographer URL.
posted by GuyZero at 9:49 AM on December 21, 2005

GuyZero: that's a great pic!
posted by reverendX at 9:56 AM on December 21, 2005

bah... hunting down the farmer and interrupting his day just so he can say "no, you can't stand on my frozen field miles from my house". all this taking far longer than me getting in and out of there, w/ no harm done. i'm not going to be traipsing around his property all afternoon, messing w/ his shit...
posted by cgs at 10:04 AM on December 21, 2005

and i don't think the comparison to a backyard is valid.
posted by cgs at 10:07 AM on December 21, 2005

Definitely ask. And (I say this as someone who grew up in a super-rural area) offer to make them copies. It's their land -- maybe they have a twisted tree that you think is cool, and that they used to climb when it was their granddad's farm. Or maybe they always liked that view from the hill, the one that made such a good shot for you.

You don't have to offer to make them copies, but it would certainly be a nice thing to do, and it'll make you stand out from the other guys who come tromping through their property.
posted by booksandlibretti at 10:08 AM on December 21, 2005

cgs, why do you have this notion that knocking on the farmhouse door is "hassling" the farmer and "interrupting his day"? What's the big?
posted by Gator at 10:11 AM on December 21, 2005

well, where i grew up, most farmers like to be left alone, and don't like strangers driving up to their house and knocking on their doors. plus, many of them are Amish, and are usually sick of "English" showing up on their property w/ camera gear. Amish definitely like people to mind their own business. now, i know that they probably don't like people hopping their fences either, but my whole point is to make this as painless as possible...
posted by cgs at 10:18 AM on December 21, 2005

Ah, Amish. Knowing that, your concerns make sense. Well, Amish aren't too likely to shoot people, are they? If I remember Witness, they're not too keen on injuring other people even when the other people are being outright dicks.

It's still rude (and still trespassing) to intrude on their property without asking, but if you're going to be quick about it and not act like a jackass googly-eyed tourist, you're probably not gonna make any real trouble.
posted by Gator at 10:23 AM on December 21, 2005

cgs...why in the hell did you even ask this question then if you already know what your attitude is to it? And if that is your attitude to it, I hope you are far friendlier should you actually encounter said farmer than your sentiments here show you to be. otherwise you may find a 12 gauge up your ass.
posted by spicynuts at 10:24 AM on December 21, 2005

now, i know that they probably don't like people hopping their fences either, but my whole point is to make this as painless as possible...

I still don't understand the point of the post then. You've got your mind made up and your reasons for it. Where is the question?
posted by spicynuts at 10:26 AM on December 21, 2005

i posted as a reality check, spicynuts... my opinion on the matter is secondary. this way i can better judge just how likely a problem could come up.

that said, i think mefi's underwear is twisted a little tight lately. i mean, situations in life exist where it is just better to do something than to make a big case out of it.

i do like the idea of offering them a print...i'm not sure if Amish are allowed to have photos, though...
posted by cgs at 10:32 AM on December 21, 2005

Well, they are allowed to have crystal meth if they are on rumschpringa, so photos are probably ok too.
posted by spicynuts at 10:37 AM on December 21, 2005

You know, the more you talk, the more I think you should give it up. While I might have agreed with the idea of 'He'd almost definitely say yes, and it's a lot easier for everyone if I just go over and do it without saying much of anything to anyone.' But the idea of they 'don't like strangers' and 'are usually sick of "English" showing up on their property w/ camera gear' suggests that you know that they won't say yes, because they don't want you there. To go anyway is incredibly disrespectful of them and their wishes. If you want to be rude, go ahead, no real harm is likely to come of it, but don't accuse us of being clenched because we won't give you permission to be a jerk.
posted by jacquilynne at 10:39 AM on December 21, 2005

Yeah, I didn't know they were Amish. That does change things.

I think their problem is with being photographed themselves and especially with posing for photographs (pride, lack of humility). And with pictures of other people (idolatry). However, they may not want to own photographs of things that aren't people, just because they're useless decorations. It depends on how strict they are -- can they talk themselves into thinking that the photograph exists to remind them of the wonders of God's creation?

And of course, if they're Old Order (truly hardcore), all photographs are right out because they're graven images.
posted by booksandlibretti at 10:43 AM on December 21, 2005

I can answer as somebody who grew up on a farm and somebody who tresspassed on other peoples farms. I thought it was all fine until we almost stepped in open coyote traps and then were shot at by the mentally slow neighbor's son. Always ask - most won't care and if they say no then you leave. No big deal.
posted by guruguy9 at 10:44 AM on December 21, 2005

and i don't think the comparison to a backyard is valid.

So, you're saying it's not OK for me to go over and take pictures in your back yard? Why not?
posted by Kirth Gerson at 10:52 AM on December 21, 2005

dang! i don't know how this got so negative... that wasn't my intention.

this isn't the case with what i'm doing, but often in photography you just have to take the shot. if you take the time to ask your subjects permission, and make sure it is cool, you'll miss it. per the Photographer's Right (linked earlier) i don't even have to ask someone's permission before taking their photo on the street. that, to me, is much more disrespectful than shooting a tree some miles from your home without telling you first.

another consideration is in even finding the right farmer...sometimes it is hard to tell which piece of land belongs to which farm. i guess that is just part of due dilligence.
posted by cgs at 10:55 AM on December 21, 2005

kirth- i think scale is a factor. my backyard (back when i had a yard) was like 40 feet wide. do you consider that equal to walking 50 yards in from the road on a farm miles wide, where they can't even see me from the house?
posted by cgs at 10:58 AM on December 21, 2005

If it's my farm, yeah, I do. You don't know what I've got pastured in that field, and I don't know what you're doing out there - unless you ask my permission.

What you're talking about is not some special case that should be exempt because you're only taking pictures. It is exactly what trespassing laws are about. If the landowner is Amish or Mennonite or whatever, and is unlikely to grant permission, it's still his land, and he has a right to restrict access to it. If he does, you have no right to ignore his wishes.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 11:08 AM on December 21, 2005

much more disrespectful than shooting a tree some miles from your home without telling you first.

cgs...I am an amateur photographer and I am with you on the frustration of seeing a great shot and knowing there are irritating impediments such as property rights to getting it, but property is property and there are potential risks to you as well as a degree of civility and respect for the property owner involved. A very good long lens is a good solution. So is scouting to know where you may find a trove of possible great shots so that you can ask permission in advance and come back and spend an ENTIRE DAY there getting maybe 6 or 7 fantastic shots rather than just the one quick one. Getting permission first allows that potential as well as offering you the following possible rewards:

1. access to OTHER places you may not even know about but the farmer/property owner does

2. guided access around coyote traps, sink holes, snakes, hidden ditches, booby traps, 'slow' children with guns, etc etc making your trip less likely to end in you having an owie

3. an introduction to the farmer's daughter or, at the very least, a nice corned beef sandwhich from his wife

4. an invitation to come back as often as you want next time WITHOUT prior notice

5. time to set up your shot and make it count, rather than rushing because you are concerned with getting shot/caught

All I'm saying is use your brain but also be a HUMAN. Think past those ten minutes you are walking by. You could end up with an entire adventure rather than a single shot. Don't cut off your nose to spite your face. I mean, come on, you know the right answer here, you're just afraid or frustrated at the reality of having to do the right thing. Being a photographer involves creative skills above and beyond just having an eye.
posted by spicynuts at 11:09 AM on December 21, 2005

i hear you spicy... i guess i'm also leery of talking to strangers. maybe i'm projecting that onto the farmers, a bit. i know that when it comes to asking for a shot vs. walking on, i most often walk on...
posted by cgs at 11:20 AM on December 21, 2005

So you stump out onto his field without permission and step into a gopher hole while peering through your camera at a great shot.

Now you're in the middle of an empty field with a broken ankle and no guarantee anyone will be by for the rest of the day.

If you'd asked persmission and said something like, "I should be done shooting by noon," The farmer would probably check up on his field around lunch time, and find you sitting on the ground with a swollen ankle.

Furthermore, imagine explaining yourself to a farmer who didn't expect to find you there in that situation.

It's always good to let someone else know where you are when you step off the beaten path.

As an aside, I've chatted with Mennonite farmers outside Elmira, Ontario and (believe it or not) they're actually people, just like you and me. They deserve respect, manners, and all that kind of thing. The undercurrent of bigotry in the whole, "Don't bother asking the Amish," meme is really disturbing.

The Mennonites were also pretty cool with barter, and a gallon or two of paint, running an errand or lending a hand would buy a lot of good-will.
posted by Crosius at 11:31 AM on December 21, 2005

The Mennonites were also pretty cool with barter, and a gallon or two of paint, running an errand or lending a hand would buy a lot of good-will.

Yeah, I mean think about how many good shots you could get if you offered to help in a barn raising or a harvest or something like that (notwithstanding by ignorance as to whether Amish law allows intermingling in those events). I think that would actually be a pretty cool deal. I bet you'd learn a hell of a lot.
posted by spicynuts at 11:40 AM on December 21, 2005

Following on the spicynuts comment, I'm always surprised by what you can get (away with) if you "just ask." Even in foreign countries in broken english or a feeble attempt at the local language or dialect. It is astounding!
posted by shoepal at 11:56 AM on December 21, 2005

dang! i don't know how this got so negative... that wasn't my intention.

It "got negative" because you posted in bad faith: you asked a question and then started getting snarky with people who didn't give you the answer you wanted. As many others have said, asking first is not only the legal answer, it's the practical answer for all sorts of reasons (like falling into holes). I'm afraid being "leery of talking to strangers" isn't a sufficient excuse, and it will seem like a dumb reason when you're sitting in that hole.
posted by languagehat at 12:41 PM on December 21, 2005

I'm going to weigh in by saying that asking, regardless of outcome, beats possible consequences. Although comparisons to a backyard may seem way off base when the property encompasses hundreds of acres,it's still someone else's property. To many people, there's no difference whether you're ten feet from their house or miles away if it's their property.

I've helped out a family friend with an even trickier situation in the past -- hot air ballooning. In a balloon, conditions are such that you sometimes have to land. The wind may take you somewhere where there's only a small patch of open land surrounded by miles of planted fields, or you might be running out of fuel and the last possible spot is in someone's front yard. I was lucky in that every time I crewed, we were able to get permission from the landowner just before landing -- and they usually tell you where the best spot is, open up gates, and explain where to get on access roads. My dad's had situations where farmers have screamed about cattle that ran from the balloon and threatened him with guns. Luckily, the latter situation is much rarer.

The stakes are much lower with photography, so I'd strongly recommend searching out permission.
posted by mikeh at 12:50 PM on December 21, 2005

I just remembered something about Mennonites and photographs.

When I was working for a rural newspaper as a photographer a few summers ago, we were writing profiles on all of the area churches, and I ended up going out and taking pictures of a lot of people, most of whom were farmers. I asked permission for photographs when I could, but sometimes I had to go without.

Every time I talked to someone out there, they were thrilled to have their church's photo taken, and quite willing to offer up more information that led me to much better photographs.

But there was this one time... and of course this is just one case, but the Mennonite church I photographed was incredibly difficult to deal with. They returned none of my repeated phone calls, and when I finally showed up at their church one afternoon and met someone face to face, they were downright frightening and gave me the 5th degree, only to deny me access to take any interesting (read, photos with people) photos.

So I ended up taking some very boring shots from the road.

I guess the point is, the poster's fear of rejection, or of interrupting them isn't coming from out of left field. When I dealt with them I certainly was made to feel like I was a nuisance and bothering them. But oh well.
posted by dead_ at 1:06 PM on December 21, 2005

If you do it without permission you better hope they don't have a bull. A mean bull (oxymoron) can be worse than a rifle.
posted by 6:1 at 1:14 PM on December 21, 2005

I have land and sometimes find people crawling around on it for various reasons, usually hunting. My reason to say "you should really ask first" is because I live alone, and I'm unarmed, and if I saw you in my yard at a distance when I was home alone, I'd be a little nervous. Not like flip-out-call-cops nervous, but like "what is that guy doing on my land?" nervous. So, my feeling is that you're better off introducing yourself before your presence makes itself known in other ways. If I saw you getting closer to my house (from the backyard) then I felt comfy with, depending on how you were acting, I definitely would call the cops. Also, I'm not sure where you're from but in the country where I live having people swing by is rarely an imposition. There are some hermitty folks for whom this is not the case, but I know very few people out where I live who would mind a courtesy call to say something like "mind if I photograph your barn?" We don't have a lot of Amish out here though so I can't speak to their approach.
posted by jessamyn at 2:35 PM on December 21, 2005

Well, no, the poster's fear of rejection isn't out of left field. The same sorts of things happen when photographers try to take photos of people on the street; they don't want to "bother" the subject and so they take long shots that don't work as well or try to take candids and end up looking foolish at best (and suspicious at worst). The answer, of course, is to not be so damned chicken about asking permission. Everyone's far more at ease and you can take the exact shot you want.

The same applies to photos on private property. Chances are any well-phrased request to take photos will be greeted politely—possibly even warmly. And if you don't get permission, it won't kill you. Seriously, you'll always find another subject.
posted by chrominance at 4:03 PM on December 21, 2005

cgs, I can identify with leery of "hassling" others or what have you, but in the same situation I would probably do one of the following:

1. legally use a telephoto lens from the road but ask permission if I wish to publish the photo

2. find the owner and chat him/her up a bit, and if things look promising, ask permission. Something along the lines of "i was driving by on my way back from a photo shoot in Marvin Gardens and saw the tree out in your field. It looks like a great subject for a photo. Would you mind telling me a little about the area and the tree, and would you mind if I took a picture or three?" (If they say yes, ask about a property release form.)

3. track down the phone number if possible and call, or get the address and write

I'm not sure about Amish rules, but I thought the graven image restriction was of faces, not trees. Could be wrong, of course.

You know, hunting on private land without permission is dangerous. This is similar. If you plan on publishing the photo (even on the web) you're in murky legal ground since it's someone else's property. Carry a few simple release cards with you, have the farmer sign so you can "get him a nice print" once you're done. Leave your card or phone number.

You might learn something, your photo might gain a ton of depth. Say the farmer tells you some unexpected history of the tree. Now you have more than a quick shot with no back story. Maybe he tells you the tree is good, but check out this tree behind his barn... The point is that it's a hassle but the right thing to do and it could gain you more than a quick shot of a tree.

Either way, good luck and maybe you can post the picture if you get it. (Heck, I've got to see this tree now. :-)
posted by mumeishi at 4:23 PM on December 21, 2005

Ask. I've spent years working on farms and it totally pisses me off when people trespass. You know you're up to no harm but the farmer probably gets multiple idiots per month out there, especially during hunting season and long ago lost patience with it. Besides you don't know what else is out there, you could be walking into land that is being actively hunted and get your ass shot. You could go in a field with a cute horse and have it turn out to be a rank stud that seriously injures you, etc.

btw, please, please do not trespass into areas with livestock, especially horses and then try to approach or feed said livestock. It is very easy to injure them or to be injured. I've seen people bring small children and try to put them up on unbroken colts backs to "take a picture". Most trespassers are morons, so if you trespass you'll probably be treated like one, I'm afraid to say.
posted by fshgrl at 8:22 PM on December 21, 2005

bah... hunting down the farmer and interrupting his day just so he can say "no, you can't stand on my frozen field miles from my house". all this taking far longer than me getting in and out of there, w/ no harm done. i'm not going to be traipsing around his property all afternoon, messing w/ his shit...

Who asked you? Nobody. You're the one person on the entire planet who shouldn't be answering this thread. Your lack of good grace is appalling. If I caught you trespassing on my land, I'd shoot you and throw you into a lime pit. That'd teach you not to ask permission first.
posted by ikkyu2 at 11:18 PM on December 21, 2005

hey ikkyu- glad to see you've "remained enlightened after breaking all those rules". i'll make sure not to trespass on your land.
posted by cgs at 7:27 AM on December 22, 2005