My husband won't listen to me talk about work
March 29, 2016 10:09 AM Subscribe
My husband completely shuts down when I talk to him about problems I'm having at work. This is the only topic of conversation that he automatically shuts down, in two minutes or fewer. It has been ongoing, and I feel like I have to lie and say work is "fine" when he asks, or just swallow up my negative feelings. What's going on here?
He's not the best listener overall, and can be pretty rude / socially unaware, but it's only when I talk about problems I'm having at work that he shuts down. When I say rude, I mean, he'll say things like "okay what's the point?" or "I'm not interested in this topic" if a story goes long/rambles on (not just to me).
In the two years we've been together, I've discussed problems at work about 4-5 times. The first time, he said something like "I don't like talking about this kind of negative stuff, it's really a drag," so months went by before I said something else. I told him that it hurt my feelings and made me feel unsupported that he did that. He said he understood and wouldn't do it anymore. Still, his usual contributions is simply "you should quit." He says I don't have to work, but I like having my own money and independence. He's generous with money, but I don't like having to ask / account for money like I'm Lucy Ricardo.
Last night, I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace), and he interrupted me mid-word to say irritably, "well, what do you WANT?" I told him to just forget it, and he tried to explain himself by saying "you've told me all this before, I was just trying to ask what you're going to do about it." Needless to say, I'm pretty pissed. I feel like I have to keep a part of myself from my own husband. I feel silenced. I'm really, really upset.
I don't complain a lot in general- this is a tendency I've had in the past, and worked really hard to stop, and I've been successful. I've seemed to have a tough time in about half the jobs I've had, and some of what I wanted was feedback- is it really that bad? Is it just me? What can I do to help things go more smoothly? I obviously haven't gotten this.
Most of my friends are long-distance now, so when I see and talk to them, I want to keep things upbeat and fun. My best friend is now living overseas and I've mentioned things to her a few times, and she's confided her work problems to me, but she's heard me out and given me good advice. I have her opinion and stance on the matter, and that's that. It feels inappropriate and unproductive to discuss some things with coworkers. My mother usually says I need to change industries entirely, and that some of the problems I'm having are common to all workplaces. But still, I want to tell my husband.
In my last significant relationship, I talked about job troubles with my partner, and although he didn't see everything the way I did, I felt heard. He listened, gave his opinion, told me what he thought I could do differently, etc. I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm doing everything right and they're horrible. I'm not even really looking for advice all the time, just sometimes. I want a sounding board that is more objective than I can be.
Oh yeah, the work issue this time is that a mandatory meeting has been called with/by one of our investors and I'm really nervous about it. I've been stewing about it since I heard, and I haven't had anyone to talk to. My husband has NOT heard this before, and would have heard something new if he had listened for more than two minutes (and yes I'm sure it was not more than two).
So the questions:
Is this a dealbreaker? Is this acceptable behavior on his part? What should I do / how do I cope with this?
He's not the best listener overall, and can be pretty rude / socially unaware, but it's only when I talk about problems I'm having at work that he shuts down. When I say rude, I mean, he'll say things like "okay what's the point?" or "I'm not interested in this topic" if a story goes long/rambles on (not just to me).
In the two years we've been together, I've discussed problems at work about 4-5 times. The first time, he said something like "I don't like talking about this kind of negative stuff, it's really a drag," so months went by before I said something else. I told him that it hurt my feelings and made me feel unsupported that he did that. He said he understood and wouldn't do it anymore. Still, his usual contributions is simply "you should quit." He says I don't have to work, but I like having my own money and independence. He's generous with money, but I don't like having to ask / account for money like I'm Lucy Ricardo.
Last night, I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace), and he interrupted me mid-word to say irritably, "well, what do you WANT?" I told him to just forget it, and he tried to explain himself by saying "you've told me all this before, I was just trying to ask what you're going to do about it." Needless to say, I'm pretty pissed. I feel like I have to keep a part of myself from my own husband. I feel silenced. I'm really, really upset.
I don't complain a lot in general- this is a tendency I've had in the past, and worked really hard to stop, and I've been successful. I've seemed to have a tough time in about half the jobs I've had, and some of what I wanted was feedback- is it really that bad? Is it just me? What can I do to help things go more smoothly? I obviously haven't gotten this.
Most of my friends are long-distance now, so when I see and talk to them, I want to keep things upbeat and fun. My best friend is now living overseas and I've mentioned things to her a few times, and she's confided her work problems to me, but she's heard me out and given me good advice. I have her opinion and stance on the matter, and that's that. It feels inappropriate and unproductive to discuss some things with coworkers. My mother usually says I need to change industries entirely, and that some of the problems I'm having are common to all workplaces. But still, I want to tell my husband.
In my last significant relationship, I talked about job troubles with my partner, and although he didn't see everything the way I did, I felt heard. He listened, gave his opinion, told me what he thought I could do differently, etc. I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm doing everything right and they're horrible. I'm not even really looking for advice all the time, just sometimes. I want a sounding board that is more objective than I can be.
Oh yeah, the work issue this time is that a mandatory meeting has been called with/by one of our investors and I'm really nervous about it. I've been stewing about it since I heard, and I haven't had anyone to talk to. My husband has NOT heard this before, and would have heard something new if he had listened for more than two minutes (and yes I'm sure it was not more than two).
So the questions:
Is this a dealbreaker? Is this acceptable behavior on his part? What should I do / how do I cope with this?
Best answer: I feel like I have to lie and say work is "fine" when he asks
The fuck is he doing asking about work if he's just going to shut you down when you talk about it?
I don't know what to tell you, this just seems like such a mega asshole move on his part I don't even know where to begin. (Well, personally, I would begin at "why are you being such a dismissive asshole about this" but I don't know how constructive that is for you.)
Something that can help you at least have an outlet is to find a therapist. There are lots who specialize in career/work coping skills where you can be heard and get constructive feedback on these things without having to rely on your husband for that specific support.
posted by phunniemee at 10:20 AM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
The fuck is he doing asking about work if he's just going to shut you down when you talk about it?
I don't know what to tell you, this just seems like such a mega asshole move on his part I don't even know where to begin. (Well, personally, I would begin at "why are you being such a dismissive asshole about this" but I don't know how constructive that is for you.)
Something that can help you at least have an outlet is to find a therapist. There are lots who specialize in career/work coping skills where you can be heard and get constructive feedback on these things without having to rely on your husband for that specific support.
posted by phunniemee at 10:20 AM on March 29, 2016 [38 favorites]
Best answer: It's a deal breaker for me, and it sounds like a deal breaker for you.
Men typically engage in conversations like this as problem-solvers. If your husband doesn't really relate to your job or understand it, he may feel that he has nothing to contribute to solving the problem and thus, shouldn't be involved in the conversation. The WAY your husband is doing this is just assy.
I suggest that you preface your conversations with what you want from him.
"I'm really nervous about a work thing, I'd like to run it past you and get your opinion."
"I'm weighing the pros and cons of a work decision and I need a fresh perspective from you."
"It would help me process my complex feelings about this issue if you would engage with me on this, and listen to me."
I'm going to suggest two things.
1. Get a career counselor. This will be the person who can help you sort out your work situations.
2. Get a marriage counselor, to help you with communicating better between the two of you.
I kind of get the impression that your husband doesn't want you to work and resents being asked for advice on something of which he doesn't approve. It's still assy though.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:22 AM on March 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Men typically engage in conversations like this as problem-solvers. If your husband doesn't really relate to your job or understand it, he may feel that he has nothing to contribute to solving the problem and thus, shouldn't be involved in the conversation. The WAY your husband is doing this is just assy.
I suggest that you preface your conversations with what you want from him.
"I'm really nervous about a work thing, I'd like to run it past you and get your opinion."
"I'm weighing the pros and cons of a work decision and I need a fresh perspective from you."
"It would help me process my complex feelings about this issue if you would engage with me on this, and listen to me."
I'm going to suggest two things.
1. Get a career counselor. This will be the person who can help you sort out your work situations.
2. Get a marriage counselor, to help you with communicating better between the two of you.
I kind of get the impression that your husband doesn't want you to work and resents being asked for advice on something of which he doesn't approve. It's still assy though.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:22 AM on March 29, 2016 [23 favorites]
Is this a dealbreaker?
Is it a dealbreaker to you?
You can't make people want to listen to something they don't, and there are people in the world who don't or can't tolerate listening to problems they can't solve, or problems that don't have solutions. Your husband is an autonomous human being who gets to have a preference.
You are an autonomous human being who can decide that's not okay and leave him, or pick someone else to talk to about it, or get a therapist, or journal. You can't make him want to listen, though. You can't make him handle this better. If his handling of the situation, even if he can't do the thing you want, is too shitty, you can leave him. It's not important enough to him to do better, and that's a piece of information for you to consider.
But you can't make him be anything he's not, or make him want a thing he doesn't.
I think in my life, my husband and I do vent sometimes and ask for advice sometimes, but we do try not to belabor the point. I don't expect him to be the only person I talk to, nor am I his - in part, we work in very different industries and there are smarter people we could be talking to - but certainly being nasty about it would be a big deal.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:23 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Is it a dealbreaker to you?
You can't make people want to listen to something they don't, and there are people in the world who don't or can't tolerate listening to problems they can't solve, or problems that don't have solutions. Your husband is an autonomous human being who gets to have a preference.
You are an autonomous human being who can decide that's not okay and leave him, or pick someone else to talk to about it, or get a therapist, or journal. You can't make him want to listen, though. You can't make him handle this better. If his handling of the situation, even if he can't do the thing you want, is too shitty, you can leave him. It's not important enough to him to do better, and that's a piece of information for you to consider.
But you can't make him be anything he's not, or make him want a thing he doesn't.
I think in my life, my husband and I do vent sometimes and ask for advice sometimes, but we do try not to belabor the point. I don't expect him to be the only person I talk to, nor am I his - in part, we work in very different industries and there are smarter people we could be talking to - but certainly being nasty about it would be a big deal.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:23 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't want to justify this, because I think it's very bad behavior, but I kind of get it: conversations about other people's jobs can be boring because you have no investment in any of the day-to-day workplace politics or intrigues. And they're often repetitive: the same issues come up over and over again because the personalities in the office stay the same (until someone leaves/is fired/transfers). Janice from Accounting is always going to be up to her Janice from Accounting tricks.
That being said: he should have an investment in your workplace goings on because he's your husband and work takes up the major part of our lives. It's important to be able to work through workplace issues at home, to vent and decompress about them, and maybe solve problems. If I couldn't rant to my wife, or in general to someone who has my back about the bullshit at work, and who at least feigns interest and concern, I'd never be able to deal with it. Similarly, I know that being there for my wife and working through her issues at work is important to her own sanity. Hell, we work for most of our lives, and after work, that's often how we bond and talk, by going over our work days.
Have you talked to him about? If you tell him it's important to you and he still can't be bothered, it might not be a deal breaker, but it calls for some kind of intervention, like marriage counseling (depending on how important it really is to you).
posted by dis_integration at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
That being said: he should have an investment in your workplace goings on because he's your husband and work takes up the major part of our lives. It's important to be able to work through workplace issues at home, to vent and decompress about them, and maybe solve problems. If I couldn't rant to my wife, or in general to someone who has my back about the bullshit at work, and who at least feigns interest and concern, I'd never be able to deal with it. Similarly, I know that being there for my wife and working through her issues at work is important to her own sanity. Hell, we work for most of our lives, and after work, that's often how we bond and talk, by going over our work days.
Have you talked to him about? If you tell him it's important to you and he still can't be bothered, it might not be a deal breaker, but it calls for some kind of intervention, like marriage counseling (depending on how important it really is to you).
posted by dis_integration at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Best answer: I want a sounding board that is more objective than I can be.
Have you ever said to your husband, "It is really, really helpful and comforting to me when you allow me to vent about work periodically. When I do this, I'm not looking for a solution. I'm just looking for reassurance and empathy. You shut me down whenever I approach you about my issues at work. Why?"
Some people think that when somebody's complaining about something, they're looking for solutions. These types of people need to be explicitly told what kind of outcome you're looking for when you're venting to them. It is possible that if you directly tell your husband what you want, he will stop being a dick when you come to him for reassurance. I'm hoping for your sake that's the case.
My guess is, though, that this financial dynamic with your husband is the root of the issue. To me he sounds emasculated by your desire to work even though he makes enough money to provide for the both of you. It's possible that when you complain about work to him, he's sitting there going, "I've already told her she doesn't need to work, this is so stupid", and that he's got some sexist stuff all up in his business that he refuses to let go of in order to be a supportive partner. If that's the case, yeah, I'm gonna go with dealbreaker, because why be with someone who doesn't respect you enough to support your independence and individual desires?
Fingers crossed it's situation A.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Have you ever said to your husband, "It is really, really helpful and comforting to me when you allow me to vent about work periodically. When I do this, I'm not looking for a solution. I'm just looking for reassurance and empathy. You shut me down whenever I approach you about my issues at work. Why?"
Some people think that when somebody's complaining about something, they're looking for solutions. These types of people need to be explicitly told what kind of outcome you're looking for when you're venting to them. It is possible that if you directly tell your husband what you want, he will stop being a dick when you come to him for reassurance. I'm hoping for your sake that's the case.
My guess is, though, that this financial dynamic with your husband is the root of the issue. To me he sounds emasculated by your desire to work even though he makes enough money to provide for the both of you. It's possible that when you complain about work to him, he's sitting there going, "I've already told her she doesn't need to work, this is so stupid", and that he's got some sexist stuff all up in his business that he refuses to let go of in order to be a supportive partner. If that's the case, yeah, I'm gonna go with dealbreaker, because why be with someone who doesn't respect you enough to support your independence and individual desires?
Fingers crossed it's situation A.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [15 favorites]
Honestly, your husband sounds a lot like me. I think he recognizes that you're upset, and he wants you to feel better, but he has no idea of what he can do about it. He's offered you solutions, but you've rejected them. You have perfectly justifiable reasons for rejecting them, of course, but he feels stymied and out of ideas. He doesn't understand the value you find in weighing pros and cons out loud.
Assuming he's not an incurable asshole, he probably needs to be educated about supportive listening techniques. Gods know I do.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:28 AM on March 29, 2016 [37 favorites]
Assuming he's not an incurable asshole, he probably needs to be educated about supportive listening techniques. Gods know I do.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:28 AM on March 29, 2016 [37 favorites]
> "well, what do you WANT?" I told him to just forget it, and he tried to explain himself by saying "you've told me all this before, I was just trying to ask what you're going to do about it."
Sounds like he's extremely interested in you changing your job. I think he really cares about you, actually. When he says it's a drag to talk about, I think it's probably more of his defensiveness on your behalf. He doesn't like seeing you in pain but feels helpless to do anything about it--more on that below. Anyway, this causes real pain when considering even talking about the subject.
Since you haven't taken his advice yet (decisively DO something about it all--that sort of advice), he may be starting to feel that you may be judging his advice to be worth much and as a result, he gets defensive. This happens all the time to people who place a high value on their own competence (for example, the Meyers-Briggs INTJ personality type). If you ask their advice once or twice and then later you ask again or express that the problem remains, there's a good chance they're going to get impatient. Chances are, they themselves don't ask questions just to get a sounding board. They ask questions to get information that moves them toward decisive action. That is different from the way you operate.
He may also have a better sense of boundaries than you do, right now. This may really frustrate him because he wants to protect you but isn't sure how, because he sees that his usual toolset (giving advice) isn't working with you at all.
This is a pretty common situation in couple relationships. People with different working styles get in relationships and they're both very gifted, but their strong points are in each others' weak spots. It sounds like your strong point may revolve around personal connections--more rapport and support than raw competence alone.
My advice would be to accept his weaknesses for what they are (his getting upset shows a weakness) and find a way to work around it. Leave more gas in your emotional tanks before you get home, either by taking time to journal a bit before heading home, or calling a friend, etc.
posted by circular at 10:32 AM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Sounds like he's extremely interested in you changing your job. I think he really cares about you, actually. When he says it's a drag to talk about, I think it's probably more of his defensiveness on your behalf. He doesn't like seeing you in pain but feels helpless to do anything about it--more on that below. Anyway, this causes real pain when considering even talking about the subject.
Since you haven't taken his advice yet (decisively DO something about it all--that sort of advice), he may be starting to feel that you may be judging his advice to be worth much and as a result, he gets defensive. This happens all the time to people who place a high value on their own competence (for example, the Meyers-Briggs INTJ personality type). If you ask their advice once or twice and then later you ask again or express that the problem remains, there's a good chance they're going to get impatient. Chances are, they themselves don't ask questions just to get a sounding board. They ask questions to get information that moves them toward decisive action. That is different from the way you operate.
He may also have a better sense of boundaries than you do, right now. This may really frustrate him because he wants to protect you but isn't sure how, because he sees that his usual toolset (giving advice) isn't working with you at all.
This is a pretty common situation in couple relationships. People with different working styles get in relationships and they're both very gifted, but their strong points are in each others' weak spots. It sounds like your strong point may revolve around personal connections--more rapport and support than raw competence alone.
My advice would be to accept his weaknesses for what they are (his getting upset shows a weakness) and find a way to work around it. Leave more gas in your emotional tanks before you get home, either by taking time to journal a bit before heading home, or calling a friend, etc.
posted by circular at 10:32 AM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
His dismissive attitude is probably due to the fact that he doesn't want you to work. He may not even care to be supportive in the hopes that you quit. However, any verbal response to the effect of "I'm not interested in this topic" is pure shittery. You should not have to filter or edit yourself because he's "not interested". He should be listening and supportive. That's something partners DO. Only you can decide whether or not this is a dealbreaker.
I'm really, really upset.
Of course you are, and you should be!
Oh and everything Faint of Butt just said. My husband is also like this. If I vent one too many times (two, probably ;P ) about the same thing, he loses it. His MO is to find a solution or help with the problem, and if he can't somehow solve the issue, he then becomes really annoyed with me. Even if what I really want is just to be heard, to have someone say, "Wow, that sucks". Empathizing is not in his wheelhouse. Problem-solving is.
posted by the webmistress at 10:34 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm really, really upset.
Of course you are, and you should be!
Oh and everything Faint of Butt just said. My husband is also like this. If I vent one too many times (two, probably ;P ) about the same thing, he loses it. His MO is to find a solution or help with the problem, and if he can't somehow solve the issue, he then becomes really annoyed with me. Even if what I really want is just to be heard, to have someone say, "Wow, that sucks". Empathizing is not in his wheelhouse. Problem-solving is.
posted by the webmistress at 10:34 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
he'll say things like "okay what's the point?" or "I'm not interested in this topic" if a story goes long/rambles on (not just to me).
This part makes me think it's not just that he's sick of hearing about your job, or that he's trying to be Mr. Fix It and needs to offer solutions when you just want empathy (as they used to say in the Men are From Mars era of gender essentialism disguised as marital therapy.) This makes me think he's a bit self-centered and insensitive and not afraid to show it.
Is that a dealbreaker for you? You have every right to decide it is.
posted by kapers at 10:38 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
This part makes me think it's not just that he's sick of hearing about your job, or that he's trying to be Mr. Fix It and needs to offer solutions when you just want empathy (as they used to say in the Men are From Mars era of gender essentialism disguised as marital therapy.) This makes me think he's a bit self-centered and insensitive and not afraid to show it.
Is that a dealbreaker for you? You have every right to decide it is.
posted by kapers at 10:38 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
I agree with Ruthless Bunny. I think you need to train him to listen better by prefacing every conversation with exactly what you need from him. If he still cannot respond in an appropriate way, then couples' therapy seems necessary.
My husband and I have a couple of 'code systems' like this, one of them is called "talk time." If one of us says "can we have talk time?" Then that means the other one immediately drops what they're doing and pays full attention, and discusses whatever needs to be addressed. So it's just a shorthand for "I have an issue I want to discuss, and I need you to stop what you're doing, pay full attention, and then work with me on how to address the issue." Since it's a little code phrase just between the two of us, it's a reminder of our shared connection and it doesn't provide such an ominous or formal introduction into a Serious Conversation. We also have another little phrase to use if we're feeling like the other person's blowing us off, one of us might say "Jerry humors me." Usually gets a smile and a refocus on the conversation. Perhaps your husband would respond to having some kind of code phrase for "please listen to my concern and validate it or help me think through my options in this situation." Some kind of slightly humorous reference to a shared past situation or pop culture thing might be useful (or maybe this is just me and my husband and we are weird).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:48 AM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
My husband and I have a couple of 'code systems' like this, one of them is called "talk time." If one of us says "can we have talk time?" Then that means the other one immediately drops what they're doing and pays full attention, and discusses whatever needs to be addressed. So it's just a shorthand for "I have an issue I want to discuss, and I need you to stop what you're doing, pay full attention, and then work with me on how to address the issue." Since it's a little code phrase just between the two of us, it's a reminder of our shared connection and it doesn't provide such an ominous or formal introduction into a Serious Conversation. We also have another little phrase to use if we're feeling like the other person's blowing us off, one of us might say "Jerry humors me." Usually gets a smile and a refocus on the conversation. Perhaps your husband would respond to having some kind of code phrase for "please listen to my concern and validate it or help me think through my options in this situation." Some kind of slightly humorous reference to a shared past situation or pop culture thing might be useful (or maybe this is just me and my husband and we are weird).
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:48 AM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think Faint of Butt has it. As a person similar to your husband, if you complain about something and I offer solutions and you don't try them, then why do I even bother listening to you? (I'm not saying this is right, just that I can understand!)
When my husband would get a cold, early in our relationship I'd suggest ways to help him feel better. He wouldn't do any of them. I'd get grumpy about it and he'd still be sick. In the past few years , he's changed to trying the things I had suggested in the past and letting me know, and now that I feel like I have been heard, too, I am better able to empathize with him feeling sick. (Again, I'm not saying this is right. This is just how I currently work.)
Now, you quitting your job and not getting a new one is not what I'm suggesting. But I can understand that if you complain about your job, and your husband suggests you quit it or find a new one and you do neither, he can definitely feel like his hands are tied to help at all. Would getting a different job appease both you and him? A job that is more than just an income for you and instead something you truly enjoy or that drives you?
posted by jillithd at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
When my husband would get a cold, early in our relationship I'd suggest ways to help him feel better. He wouldn't do any of them. I'd get grumpy about it and he'd still be sick. In the past few years , he's changed to trying the things I had suggested in the past and letting me know, and now that I feel like I have been heard, too, I am better able to empathize with him feeling sick. (Again, I'm not saying this is right. This is just how I currently work.)
Now, you quitting your job and not getting a new one is not what I'm suggesting. But I can understand that if you complain about your job, and your husband suggests you quit it or find a new one and you do neither, he can definitely feel like his hands are tied to help at all. Would getting a different job appease both you and him? A job that is more than just an income for you and instead something you truly enjoy or that drives you?
posted by jillithd at 10:49 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Best answer: (Context of the above, for reference, from Seinfeld, The Money):
ELAINE: So, if your parents move to Florida, you're poor.
GEORGE: (pointing out the positive) But happy.
ELAINE: Obviously. And if they stay, you're rich, but...
Elaine gestures with her hand.
GEORGE: Obviously.
ELAINE: Quite a dilemma. You know, I have a bit of a dilemma of my own.
GEORGE: No, no. No, no, no. (determined) We're staying on me. We haven't
solved anything yet.
ELAINE: Alright, this is easy. Let 'em go.
GEORGE: What d'you mean, let 'em go? They're spending all my money.
ELAINE: Alright, well, then they stay. Lemma ask you something...
GEORGE: (upset) Could you put a little thought into this? Jerry's gone, you
could humor me. He humors me!
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:51 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
ELAINE: So, if your parents move to Florida, you're poor.
GEORGE: (pointing out the positive) But happy.
ELAINE: Obviously. And if they stay, you're rich, but...
Elaine gestures with her hand.
GEORGE: Obviously.
ELAINE: Quite a dilemma. You know, I have a bit of a dilemma of my own.
GEORGE: No, no. No, no, no. (determined) We're staying on me. We haven't
solved anything yet.
ELAINE: Alright, this is easy. Let 'em go.
GEORGE: What d'you mean, let 'em go? They're spending all my money.
ELAINE: Alright, well, then they stay. Lemma ask you something...
GEORGE: (upset) Could you put a little thought into this? Jerry's gone, you
could humor me. He humors me!
posted by treehorn+bunny at 10:51 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
Your partner wants to solve a problem for you. From his perspective, he has in fact offered you many solutions, from quitting to not working at all, and you have rejected all of them and in fact insist on continuing to have this problem.
My partner is also very challenged to empathise and validate. I accept this about him and do not look for what I am not going to get from him. Instead, I have girlfriends.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:53 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
My partner is also very challenged to empathise and validate. I accept this about him and do not look for what I am not going to get from him. Instead, I have girlfriends.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:53 AM on March 29, 2016 [20 favorites]
This is to do with introversion and is not his fault.
I listen to Mrs w0mbat complain about work and am genuinely sympathetic, but the trouble is that she can go on about it for hours and I start to find it unbearable after a few minutes. It causes strong anxiety and the feeling of being trapped if it goes on and on with no end in sight. Understand that I love her and care about her, but these feelings of needing to escape the conversation are still very strong. It's not that I don't want to do the listening, and it is no problem at first, but if it goes on and on past some kind of time limit with no end in sight it becomes unbearable. Introverted people have a shorter stamina for this sort of thing and will flake out earlier. If you can keep the conversations short I am sure he will do better. Also you must have friends who are better equipped to engage in the full length version.
posted by w0mbat at 10:56 AM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I listen to Mrs w0mbat complain about work and am genuinely sympathetic, but the trouble is that she can go on about it for hours and I start to find it unbearable after a few minutes. It causes strong anxiety and the feeling of being trapped if it goes on and on with no end in sight. Understand that I love her and care about her, but these feelings of needing to escape the conversation are still very strong. It's not that I don't want to do the listening, and it is no problem at first, but if it goes on and on past some kind of time limit with no end in sight it becomes unbearable. Introverted people have a shorter stamina for this sort of thing and will flake out earlier. If you can keep the conversations short I am sure he will do better. Also you must have friends who are better equipped to engage in the full length version.
posted by w0mbat at 10:56 AM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
OK, this isn't acceptable at all. I think the conversation last night is him ineptly trying to listen and help you, but he doesn't seem to be getting the important message overall that you need him to be a listening ear for you sometimes, and right now, you need him to listen to you talk about what's going on with you at work.
I'd sit him down and tell him that it is critical for you that he is your friend and supporter, and that you can count on him to listen supportively when you need him to, which right now means you need him to do that when you talk about work. And I think you need to work out some cues with him so you can talk, like deciding together that when you need him, you will say something like "I need your ears," and then he will cooperatively plan with you on a sit down during which he in fact provides his full, supportive attention.
If you can't straighten this out between the two of you, definitely take it to a counselor.
In short, it is not okay that your husband is checking out when you need him, but if the dude loves you, he likely is not beyond salvation. Tell him the problem and agree to a plan to solve it together.
posted by bearwife at 10:56 AM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'd sit him down and tell him that it is critical for you that he is your friend and supporter, and that you can count on him to listen supportively when you need him to, which right now means you need him to do that when you talk about work. And I think you need to work out some cues with him so you can talk, like deciding together that when you need him, you will say something like "I need your ears," and then he will cooperatively plan with you on a sit down during which he in fact provides his full, supportive attention.
If you can't straighten this out between the two of you, definitely take it to a counselor.
In short, it is not okay that your husband is checking out when you need him, but if the dude loves you, he likely is not beyond salvation. Tell him the problem and agree to a plan to solve it together.
posted by bearwife at 10:56 AM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I hate complaining about work. There is little chance the person is going to do anything about it, I don't know who these people are, it seems like venting for venting's sake. It's boring and I just don't care if you don't even care enough to improve it.
I'm just saying, not everyone views this the same. I don't think my views are invalid because they're less socially acceptable. I can pretend, make supportive noises if you need but I can't be a different person. You can't force people to be who you want.
posted by Aranquis at 10:59 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm just saying, not everyone views this the same. I don't think my views are invalid because they're less socially acceptable. I can pretend, make supportive noises if you need but I can't be a different person. You can't force people to be who you want.
posted by Aranquis at 10:59 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Best answer: > I don't want to justify this, because I think it's very bad behavior, but I kind of get it: conversations about other people's jobs can be boring because you have no investment in any of the day-to-day workplace politics or intrigues. And they're often repetitive: the same issues come up over and over again because the personalities in the office stay the same (until someone leaves/is fired/transfers).
So what? We're not talking about a random acquaintance, we're talking about a spouse. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and is constantly in pain, but the locus varies: it's in her right hand, then her left hand, then a big toe... you get the idea. It's repetitive: the same issues come up over and over again because the disease stays the same (and it's not going to go away). She frequently apologizes for "boring" me with the same old complaints, and I say "Don't be silly, you're my wife, I love you, your problems are my problems." If I didn't want to listen, and I shut her down because it wasn't my pain and it was boring to listen to, I'd be a fucking asshole. You have a right to expect sympathy and empathy from your husband, and if he refuses to provide them you have every right to look elsewhere. Marriage isn't (or isn't supposed to be) only about sex, food, and shelter.
posted by languagehat at 11:10 AM on March 29, 2016 [105 favorites]
So what? We're not talking about a random acquaintance, we're talking about a spouse. My wife has rheumatoid arthritis and is constantly in pain, but the locus varies: it's in her right hand, then her left hand, then a big toe... you get the idea. It's repetitive: the same issues come up over and over again because the disease stays the same (and it's not going to go away). She frequently apologizes for "boring" me with the same old complaints, and I say "Don't be silly, you're my wife, I love you, your problems are my problems." If I didn't want to listen, and I shut her down because it wasn't my pain and it was boring to listen to, I'd be a fucking asshole. You have a right to expect sympathy and empathy from your husband, and if he refuses to provide them you have every right to look elsewhere. Marriage isn't (or isn't supposed to be) only about sex, food, and shelter.
posted by languagehat at 11:10 AM on March 29, 2016 [105 favorites]
I was all set to read your post about coming home from work every day or every week and complaining about work so I could say that some people have trouble handling other people's stress & anxiety and shutting down is one way they cope and that not every partner needs to be everything to a person and maybe you could have a buddy for work complaints.
However, seeing that you have had work complaints 4 or 5 times in 2 YEARS!? I don't think this is the case. Sounds like he's kind of a jerk, to be honest. Deliberate rudeness? Telling you to just quit as his only "help"? Feeling silenced? Like you have to hide a part of yourself? That'd be a dealbreaker for me. Is it for you?
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:11 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
However, seeing that you have had work complaints 4 or 5 times in 2 YEARS!? I don't think this is the case. Sounds like he's kind of a jerk, to be honest. Deliberate rudeness? Telling you to just quit as his only "help"? Feeling silenced? Like you have to hide a part of yourself? That'd be a dealbreaker for me. Is it for you?
posted by carrioncomfort at 11:11 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
An anecdote: Once upon a time, decades ago, there was a seminar at my workplace at which the seminar leader discussed how to respond to someone who is ranting. Say, a wife complaining about what is going on in the workplace. She listed 15 possible responses, e.g. suggesting solutions, telling the complainer that she is correct, etc. She declared that none of these responses was correct. The only correct response was REFLECTIVE LISTENING. (Easy to Google.)
The very next time my wife complained about work, I tried reflective listening, and she said (and I quote accurately) "Don't try that shit on me!"
So here is the fact. Your husband is in a pickle. He flat does not know what to say. So he is uncomfortable. And every time you up the voltage, he gets more uncomfortable. So while you are complaining about your work situation, you might spare a few seconds to think about your home situation.
If you and he are smart, you will work something out. Marriage-wise, you are still in kindergarten.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:12 AM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
The very next time my wife complained about work, I tried reflective listening, and she said (and I quote accurately) "Don't try that shit on me!"
So here is the fact. Your husband is in a pickle. He flat does not know what to say. So he is uncomfortable. And every time you up the voltage, he gets more uncomfortable. So while you are complaining about your work situation, you might spare a few seconds to think about your home situation.
If you and he are smart, you will work something out. Marriage-wise, you are still in kindergarten.
posted by SemiSalt at 11:12 AM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Does he talk to you about his recurrent problems and expect emotional support? If not, maybe you've married someone who has never learned to give or take emotional support.
posted by kinoeye at 11:13 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kinoeye at 11:13 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Do you ever have conversations with him about other subjects in which his job is just to listen to you and be a sounding board, or if not, does he ever have conversations like that with anyone else? Does he generally prefer conversations to be short and to the point? Does he tend to dislike conversations building on topics that have already been covered?
Does he ever have conversations where he wants the other party to be a sounding board for him? What sorts of things does he voluntarily share about his life, and are there things he keeps to himself?
In general, how is he at doing things for you or for other people when it's both not absolutely critical and personally uninteresting or inconvenient to him? How is he at understanding viewpoints, tastes, situations, or reactions that are very different from his own, and is that something he tries to do on his own initiative with any frequency?
There are a bunch of possible explanations for what's going on, and you'll probably have to find a way to talk it out with him and get to the point where you both understand each other's reactions. Before that, though, it could be worth thinking about these questions and other ways in which this aspect of him does or doesn't tie into the rest of his behavior.
posted by trig at 11:14 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Does he ever have conversations where he wants the other party to be a sounding board for him? What sorts of things does he voluntarily share about his life, and are there things he keeps to himself?
In general, how is he at doing things for you or for other people when it's both not absolutely critical and personally uninteresting or inconvenient to him? How is he at understanding viewpoints, tastes, situations, or reactions that are very different from his own, and is that something he tries to do on his own initiative with any frequency?
There are a bunch of possible explanations for what's going on, and you'll probably have to find a way to talk it out with him and get to the point where you both understand each other's reactions. Before that, though, it could be worth thinking about these questions and other ways in which this aspect of him does or doesn't tie into the rest of his behavior.
posted by trig at 11:14 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Your partner wants to solve a problem for you. From his perspective, he has in fact offered you many solutions, from quitting to not working at all, and you have rejected all of them and in fact insist on continuing to have this problem.
This is how I am reading it. Not that you are wrong in wanting to talk about it but I can sort of see the disconnect as someone who has limited tolerance for listening to people complain about things they don't seem to want to change (and I hear you, you are thinking about changing). So here are a few things that may help.
1. time limits "OK for a five minute vent about work?" maybe if he knows this is going to be a finite thing he can learn to suck it up and learn to listen. I think that's acceptable to ask for and might be a good compromise
2. you find someone else to dump work stuff on. The issues about you wanting to keep upbeat and fun with your friends is sort of your issue. If you need someone to talk to about this and your otherwise-great husband doesn't want to have these conversations, you can find someone who you can really vent with. Therapist, support group, work friend, something. This is also a compromise. Then you can come to the table with your husband and say "I've talked to XXX about this, but this is what I'd like your feedback on" so he does get a fix-it approach to work on if that is his thing.
Ultimately though what I am hearing is that you work, he sort of doesn't want you to work and then you sort of want to keep talking about what is not-great about work and it feels like he's fixed the problem in his mind (you don't have to work, stop working) and he sort of can't get around that. This is an issue with both of you but maybe the root of the issue needs to be rooted out so that the you wanting to talk about work issue doesn't get sidelined because of this larger thing.
Ultimately, I personally am a lot like Aranquis, listening to someone talk about work is often a lot like them describing a television show to me... it's good if they are awesome storytellers but often feels like something people go through because it solves a problem for THEM in talking about it and feels like a non-interactive conversation. It really seems like you are trying here (and asking for a compromise from your husband seems legit to me) but at the same time, a few details just a little in another direction might make this a really different scenario. If you've been working on your negativity generally, it might be worth examining work talk with the same microscope.
posted by jessamyn at 11:14 AM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is how I am reading it. Not that you are wrong in wanting to talk about it but I can sort of see the disconnect as someone who has limited tolerance for listening to people complain about things they don't seem to want to change (and I hear you, you are thinking about changing). So here are a few things that may help.
1. time limits "OK for a five minute vent about work?" maybe if he knows this is going to be a finite thing he can learn to suck it up and learn to listen. I think that's acceptable to ask for and might be a good compromise
2. you find someone else to dump work stuff on. The issues about you wanting to keep upbeat and fun with your friends is sort of your issue. If you need someone to talk to about this and your otherwise-great husband doesn't want to have these conversations, you can find someone who you can really vent with. Therapist, support group, work friend, something. This is also a compromise. Then you can come to the table with your husband and say "I've talked to XXX about this, but this is what I'd like your feedback on" so he does get a fix-it approach to work on if that is his thing.
Ultimately though what I am hearing is that you work, he sort of doesn't want you to work and then you sort of want to keep talking about what is not-great about work and it feels like he's fixed the problem in his mind (you don't have to work, stop working) and he sort of can't get around that. This is an issue with both of you but maybe the root of the issue needs to be rooted out so that the you wanting to talk about work issue doesn't get sidelined because of this larger thing.
Ultimately, I personally am a lot like Aranquis, listening to someone talk about work is often a lot like them describing a television show to me... it's good if they are awesome storytellers but often feels like something people go through because it solves a problem for THEM in talking about it and feels like a non-interactive conversation. It really seems like you are trying here (and asking for a compromise from your husband seems legit to me) but at the same time, a few details just a little in another direction might make this a really different scenario. If you've been working on your negativity generally, it might be worth examining work talk with the same microscope.
posted by jessamyn at 11:14 AM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
The way you describe your husband, he sounds pretty resistant to listening to you talk about work - are you "allowed" to talk about other things that you have negative feelings about? Or is it that he doesn't like to hear negative talk about anything, and work is just what you have the most negative things to say about? Because being intolerant of any negative conversation would be a major, major red flag for me.
But I'm a little more sympathetic if it's just about work talk, especially if your job is bad to/for you, because there's a really simple solution to a bad job, which is quitting (and getting another job if you don't want to be dependent on your husband financially). I mean, yes, he could be more empathetic and graceful. But that really is tiring.
languagehat's RA analogy works to an extent, except for the fact that bad feelings caused by a bad job, unlike a chronic disease, are a soluble problem when you're not in financial distress.
posted by mskyle at 11:15 AM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I'm a little more sympathetic if it's just about work talk, especially if your job is bad to/for you, because there's a really simple solution to a bad job, which is quitting (and getting another job if you don't want to be dependent on your husband financially). I mean, yes, he could be more empathetic and graceful. But that really is tiring.
languagehat's RA analogy works to an extent, except for the fact that bad feelings caused by a bad job, unlike a chronic disease, are a soluble problem when you're not in financial distress.
posted by mskyle at 11:15 AM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
To address the other comments rather than the OP for a sec: I am a fixer. It's my natural orientation and I'm pretty entrenched in that mode. I'm also an introvert. I do not view either of these things as a valid reason to shut down my spouse when he needs to use me as a sounding board, or vent, or cry. Even as a fixer, I understand that just talk has value. It's why people talk to themselves or think out loud. Language is how humans process information and emotions.
So, as someone with the same "Well, what are you going to do about it?" natural response, I'm entirely outraged on behalf of the OP because that's not always the appropriate response and functional adults should know this. Being able to turn that off for a hot minute is emotional labor that so far he's been unwilling to do.
Do you think this issue is so entrenched that you'd need a few trips to a marriage counselor to get things on the right track again? It sounds like he's kind of convinced that his way is the right way and getting an objective opinion into the mix might make shorter work of what could be a pretty long slog for you to convince him that actually listening to the problems of loved-ones is sort of a normal thing that people do, even if it's not scintillating good times.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:23 AM on March 29, 2016 [37 favorites]
So, as someone with the same "Well, what are you going to do about it?" natural response, I'm entirely outraged on behalf of the OP because that's not always the appropriate response and functional adults should know this. Being able to turn that off for a hot minute is emotional labor that so far he's been unwilling to do.
Do you think this issue is so entrenched that you'd need a few trips to a marriage counselor to get things on the right track again? It sounds like he's kind of convinced that his way is the right way and getting an objective opinion into the mix might make shorter work of what could be a pretty long slog for you to convince him that actually listening to the problems of loved-ones is sort of a normal thing that people do, even if it's not scintillating good times.
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:23 AM on March 29, 2016 [37 favorites]
Best answer: This is your husband's perspective, below. It may or may not be true:
"She complains about work all the time. She doesn't even need to work. There is no solution that will work other than her quitting but she won't quit. She needs to quit and decide what she wants to do with herself. I am tired of hearing about her indecision."
I do not have enough information to know if this is accurate. But honestly, there is a lot of room for "4 or 5 times in the past 2 years" to be a lot worse than it sounds, IMO. I kind of raised my eyebrows at that. I have a feeling the truth is somewhere in between. I have a feeling your "It's really not a big deal at all and I worked really hard to not be negative so I know I'm not overdoing it" is actually not 100% accurate. Is his point of view 100% accurate? Probably not. But I think you're probably more annoying than you think you are, for what it's worth. Either by a little or by a lot.
All that said, he doesn't need to be a jerk about it, and overall, I do think he is wrong not to emotionally support you. You're not wrong about that. But I wonder if you just quit your job if this aspect of his personality wouldn't bother you as much, IE, would not be approaching deal breaker territory. Are you more unhappy about husband, or more unhappy about job?
I mean - is he right, do you really just need to quit?
posted by quincunx at 11:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
"She complains about work all the time. She doesn't even need to work. There is no solution that will work other than her quitting but she won't quit. She needs to quit and decide what she wants to do with herself. I am tired of hearing about her indecision."
I do not have enough information to know if this is accurate. But honestly, there is a lot of room for "4 or 5 times in the past 2 years" to be a lot worse than it sounds, IMO. I kind of raised my eyebrows at that. I have a feeling the truth is somewhere in between. I have a feeling your "It's really not a big deal at all and I worked really hard to not be negative so I know I'm not overdoing it" is actually not 100% accurate. Is his point of view 100% accurate? Probably not. But I think you're probably more annoying than you think you are, for what it's worth. Either by a little or by a lot.
All that said, he doesn't need to be a jerk about it, and overall, I do think he is wrong not to emotionally support you. You're not wrong about that. But I wonder if you just quit your job if this aspect of his personality wouldn't bother you as much, IE, would not be approaching deal breaker territory. Are you more unhappy about husband, or more unhappy about job?
I mean - is he right, do you really just need to quit?
posted by quincunx at 11:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Your partner wants to solve a problem for you. From his perspective, he has in fact offered you many solutions, from quitting to not working at all, and you have rejected all of them and in fact insist on continuing to have this problem.
This is pretty much exactly my hubby's attitude as well. He feels that hearing about the same problem, when suggestions have been made but not taken, is a waste of time. He usually addresses my continued complaints with "make a decision already!"
I used to get really hurt over it too. But now, after so many years with him, I've come to see his point. Listening to the same complaints over the course of months and years is a bit of emotional labor I will no longer indulge in with certain people (including, in a nifty bit of turn-about-is-fair-play, with the hubby).
posted by vignettist at 11:29 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is pretty much exactly my hubby's attitude as well. He feels that hearing about the same problem, when suggestions have been made but not taken, is a waste of time. He usually addresses my continued complaints with "make a decision already!"
I used to get really hurt over it too. But now, after so many years with him, I've come to see his point. Listening to the same complaints over the course of months and years is a bit of emotional labor I will no longer indulge in with certain people (including, in a nifty bit of turn-about-is-fair-play, with the hubby).
posted by vignettist at 11:29 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: I think it sucks that you have to teach your husband how to listen to you. It's hia job to find out how not to behave like a dick, after all he discussed his behaviour with you and promised to stop being one. You shouldn't have to train him in how to be an empathetic human being.
But there goes. You want results, you'll probably have to ask him skillful questions to find out what problem he has on his end, and then explain in detail what response you expect of him. It's a buttload of emotional labor. But nobody's going to do it if you aren't. I'm mad on your behalf.
Good luck.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:33 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
But there goes. You want results, you'll probably have to ask him skillful questions to find out what problem he has on his end, and then explain in detail what response you expect of him. It's a buttload of emotional labor. But nobody's going to do it if you aren't. I'm mad on your behalf.
Good luck.
posted by Omnomnom at 11:33 AM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Why don't you just ask him to go to a few couples counseling sessions with you to work on how you interact with each other? Communication is a skill, no shame in honing those skills to improve your marriage!
Nthing that in terms of marriage, at 2 years in you're still in kindergarten and you should work this out responsibly with your spouse.
posted by jbenben at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nthing that in terms of marriage, at 2 years in you're still in kindergarten and you should work this out responsibly with your spouse.
posted by jbenben at 11:37 AM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
If this is just an issue of being a Mister Fixer, there are ways of working around it. My husband loves to suggest ways to solve things I'm ranting about. Then I'd get mad because it seemed like he thought I couldn't handle stuff on my own. And he'd get upset that I wouldn't just take his advice. So we sat down and discussed it.
"I get really frustrated when it seems like you think my work problems are easily solved. Sometimes I'm not looking for a solution, I just want a sympathetic ear." vs "I get upset when it seems you're shooting down my ideas, and I don't know what to do to help."
So now that's part of our communication. Rants about work start with "Hey, I just wanna rant about this for like two minutes. Not looking for a solution or anything, I'm just getting stuff off my chest." or "Hey this thing is happening at work and I don't know what to do. What do you think?"
If he's not receptive to working on your communications, or if he just never wants you to complain about anything, then that's another matter.
posted by specialagentwebb at 11:48 AM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
"I get really frustrated when it seems like you think my work problems are easily solved. Sometimes I'm not looking for a solution, I just want a sympathetic ear." vs "I get upset when it seems you're shooting down my ideas, and I don't know what to do to help."
So now that's part of our communication. Rants about work start with "Hey, I just wanna rant about this for like two minutes. Not looking for a solution or anything, I'm just getting stuff off my chest." or "Hey this thing is happening at work and I don't know what to do. What do you think?"
If he's not receptive to working on your communications, or if he just never wants you to complain about anything, then that's another matter.
posted by specialagentwebb at 11:48 AM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Best answer: Honestly, I think his behavior sounds horrifying. You aren't going to him with "soooo, guess what happened to Julie from accounting today!" You're asking him for emotional support because you have a big unexpected meeting with an investor. That's exactly the kind of deeply personal yet boring thing I expect my partner to share with me!
Offering you solutions from "quit!" to "don't work!" sounds infantilizing and annoying to me. It's the opposite of emotional labor; it's basically telling you he'd rather you quit your entire career than have to listen for two minutes to some professional stresses you're going through.
He may just never be able to provide this kind of support to you (the kind wives were expected to provide for their husbands for decades, btw); for me, that would be a major dealbreaker.
I can think of one time that I didn't want to listen to my boyfriend's work related woes; we were both in grad school coming into finals and I was extremely overloaded and couldn't handle the cognitive load of listening carefully to what he was saying. Otherwise we both consider it an important part of our relationship to understand what the other is going through and help them feel heard and understood (and give advice where warranted).
You want results, you'll probably have to ask him skillful questions to find out what problem he has on his end, and then explain in detail what response you expect of him. It's a buttload of emotional labor.
This, times a million.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [31 favorites]
Offering you solutions from "quit!" to "don't work!" sounds infantilizing and annoying to me. It's the opposite of emotional labor; it's basically telling you he'd rather you quit your entire career than have to listen for two minutes to some professional stresses you're going through.
He may just never be able to provide this kind of support to you (the kind wives were expected to provide for their husbands for decades, btw); for me, that would be a major dealbreaker.
I can think of one time that I didn't want to listen to my boyfriend's work related woes; we were both in grad school coming into finals and I was extremely overloaded and couldn't handle the cognitive load of listening carefully to what he was saying. Otherwise we both consider it an important part of our relationship to understand what the other is going through and help them feel heard and understood (and give advice where warranted).
You want results, you'll probably have to ask him skillful questions to find out what problem he has on his end, and then explain in detail what response you expect of him. It's a buttload of emotional labor.
This, times a million.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:17 PM on March 29, 2016 [31 favorites]
Only you can decide what your deal breakers are. To figure it out, think about how you'll feel if his behaviour doesn't change - is that a thing you can deal with? You also need to consider what you're going to do if you decide this *is* a deal breaker for you.
It's entirely possible that this is just how your husband is. You can keep fighting against it, or you can accept it and find another outlet for your complaints about work.
posted by Solomon at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2016
It's entirely possible that this is just how your husband is. You can keep fighting against it, or you can accept it and find another outlet for your complaints about work.
posted by Solomon at 12:18 PM on March 29, 2016
I’d also just like to add that a man telling a woman to just “not work” or “quit” every time she has a professional hiccup is massively sexist, whether he intends it or not. (He’s guilty of sexism either way, whether through ignorance or direct sexism.)
It’s one of the precise reasons that women are underrepresented and underpaid in so many fields.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
It’s one of the precise reasons that women are underrepresented and underpaid in so many fields.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:06 PM on March 29, 2016 [34 favorites]
I don't complain a lot in general- this is a tendency I've had in the past, and worked really hard to stop, and I've been successful.
Is this something you worked on before or after you got together with your husband? If you were a complainer at the start of the relationship, he may have developed a habit of shutting down to cope. It's not fair that he hasn't recalibrated on his own, but if this is the case, pointing out: "I've literally complained 4 times in two years about something. I need some emotional support about X, it doesn't mean I'll start complaining about anything and everything again." Again, this may not be relevant if he's never experienced complainer you.
Do you also bring it up (on the rare occasions that you do) right when you walk in the door? That's usually when I want to complain about work, but it's also when I'm the least able to deal with someone else's problems (I need to wind down from work sometimes. Especially when my job was dealing with other people's problems all day long followed by a long stressful commute). If he's generally OK with you venting about other things, maybe it's a timing thing that's he's not self-aware enough to pick up on. You may get a better response if you change when you complain, and specify you need a sympay ear, he doesn't have to fix it.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:17 PM on March 29, 2016
Is this something you worked on before or after you got together with your husband? If you were a complainer at the start of the relationship, he may have developed a habit of shutting down to cope. It's not fair that he hasn't recalibrated on his own, but if this is the case, pointing out: "I've literally complained 4 times in two years about something. I need some emotional support about X, it doesn't mean I'll start complaining about anything and everything again." Again, this may not be relevant if he's never experienced complainer you.
Do you also bring it up (on the rare occasions that you do) right when you walk in the door? That's usually when I want to complain about work, but it's also when I'm the least able to deal with someone else's problems (I need to wind down from work sometimes. Especially when my job was dealing with other people's problems all day long followed by a long stressful commute). If he's generally OK with you venting about other things, maybe it's a timing thing that's he's not self-aware enough to pick up on. You may get a better response if you change when you complain, and specify you need a sympay ear, he doesn't have to fix it.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:17 PM on March 29, 2016
There's a huge spectrum between just venting and needing concrete advice. It sounds to me like you're somewhere in between, or that you need one or the other at different times.
Which is why I'll admit to being a little annoyed at so many answers suggesting this is one of those oh-so-typical gendered things where of COURSE all the woman wants is to express feelings and all the man wants is to fix things.
Sometimes to fix things, you need to talk out with your life partner the pros and cons of different options. It sounds to me like that's one of the things you wanted last night: "I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace)"
If he were so fix-it oriented, he would have jumped at this opportunity to work through just such a decision with you. Maybe grabbed a pen and paper so you two could write down some pros and cons, and gently prodded you if you were clearly biased one way or the other in your analysis of the situation. Instead, it sounds to me like he only wants to fix things in the context that the only acceptable to him solution is for you to quit. It's not you that's being inflexible about possible solutions, it's him. Or at the very least, it's both of you.
There are solutions to this situation: you commit some emotional labor to helping him understand what it is you need, and he matches that emotional labor by meeting you halfway; you get a career/work-oriented therapist to do all this talking out with and accept that your marriage will never include career-related support; you agree with your husband and quit and go from there (but if a new workplace has issues, as any will, expect the only solution to again be to quit.) Only you can decide what's a dealbreaker and what isn't.
I also just want to nth everything stoneandstar has said.
posted by misskaz at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Which is why I'll admit to being a little annoyed at so many answers suggesting this is one of those oh-so-typical gendered things where of COURSE all the woman wants is to express feelings and all the man wants is to fix things.
Sometimes to fix things, you need to talk out with your life partner the pros and cons of different options. It sounds to me like that's one of the things you wanted last night: "I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace)"
If he were so fix-it oriented, he would have jumped at this opportunity to work through just such a decision with you. Maybe grabbed a pen and paper so you two could write down some pros and cons, and gently prodded you if you were clearly biased one way or the other in your analysis of the situation. Instead, it sounds to me like he only wants to fix things in the context that the only acceptable to him solution is for you to quit. It's not you that's being inflexible about possible solutions, it's him. Or at the very least, it's both of you.
There are solutions to this situation: you commit some emotional labor to helping him understand what it is you need, and he matches that emotional labor by meeting you halfway; you get a career/work-oriented therapist to do all this talking out with and accept that your marriage will never include career-related support; you agree with your husband and quit and go from there (but if a new workplace has issues, as any will, expect the only solution to again be to quit.) Only you can decide what's a dealbreaker and what isn't.
I also just want to nth everything stoneandstar has said.
posted by misskaz at 1:20 PM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, I was going to say exactly what misskaz is saying; the approach you're taking sounds incredibly solutions-oriented and emotionally wise. People are jumping to conclusions that you're just venting and smacking down his well-intentioned suggestions when it seems like the opposite, he's being very simplistic and childish and inattentive with his "solutions."
EVERYONE is "solutions-oriented" at times. It's called being emotionally uninvested. If he cared about this, he would be over the long term emotionally invested enough to be truly solutions-oriented, in terms of talking things out with you, giving you perspective, asking good questions, helping you assess whether your impulses are constructive or destructive, etc.
If you think you have a serious problem, a therapist will be more useful than your husband, obviously. But if you just want casual support from your partner... I'd think about whether he's likely to change.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
EVERYONE is "solutions-oriented" at times. It's called being emotionally uninvested. If he cared about this, he would be over the long term emotionally invested enough to be truly solutions-oriented, in terms of talking things out with you, giving you perspective, asking good questions, helping you assess whether your impulses are constructive or destructive, etc.
If you think you have a serious problem, a therapist will be more useful than your husband, obviously. But if you just want casual support from your partner... I'd think about whether he's likely to change.
posted by stoneandstar at 1:26 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
He says I don't have to work, but I like having my own money and independence. He's generous with money, but I don't like having to ask / account for money like I'm Lucy Ricardo
This leapt out at me, as a housewife. It's great that you have a job you like -- but the alternative shouldn't be asking your husband for money in a way you feel is beneath you. Get a joint checking account, have the earned money go into there where either of you can get it out.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:28 PM on March 29, 2016
This leapt out at me, as a housewife. It's great that you have a job you like -- but the alternative shouldn't be asking your husband for money in a way you feel is beneath you. Get a joint checking account, have the earned money go into there where either of you can get it out.
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:28 PM on March 29, 2016
Something no one has mentioned before - what are his expectations and cultural framework around marriage? What does a woman working after marriage mean to him?
For a man who grew up expecting to take care of his wife, a wife that works only makes sense in two situations: 1) that she enjoys it, and 2) that he does not make good enough money to keep her in the style to which she has become accustomed.
From that perspective, if that is his framework, you complaining about the work sounds like you don't enjoy it - which could make him feel like he's not making enough money for you. From that perspective, your complaining about work might also sound like you're complaining about him and his inability to provide for you. This is what it would mean in the culture I came from - as a subtle, passive aggressive way of suggesting he isn't good enough.
Does he understand why you want to work? Have you expressed it to him? Does he understand it?
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
For a man who grew up expecting to take care of his wife, a wife that works only makes sense in two situations: 1) that she enjoys it, and 2) that he does not make good enough money to keep her in the style to which she has become accustomed.
From that perspective, if that is his framework, you complaining about the work sounds like you don't enjoy it - which could make him feel like he's not making enough money for you. From that perspective, your complaining about work might also sound like you're complaining about him and his inability to provide for you. This is what it would mean in the culture I came from - as a subtle, passive aggressive way of suggesting he isn't good enough.
Does he understand why you want to work? Have you expressed it to him? Does he understand it?
posted by corb at 1:59 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Whether it's acceptable or a deal-breaker or not is up to you. I can tell you but it seems to be a very common phenomenon; I know a number of couples who've gone through the same thing. In most cases, the wife has dealt with it by finding someone else to talk to. I don't know you or your husband, so I have no way of knowing if your situation is the same as the couples I'm thinking of. But it makes me incredibly sad; I don't understand why these men married their wives in the first place if they weren't interested in their lives.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:07 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:07 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Nth-ing those pointing out that you really are NOT Men are from Mars-ing him-- you are indeed asking him for his manly advice and solutions, and not just doing your womanly venting (which is also a reasonable thing to ask your partner to listen to IMO and that kind of gender essentialism is useless and insulting anyway.) Lot of these responses are missing that part of your question.
If his only advice is to quit or stop complaining, he really is not using his superior male reasoning to provide solutions, he is being dismissive and repetitive.
posted by kapers at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
If his only advice is to quit or stop complaining, he really is not using his superior male reasoning to provide solutions, he is being dismissive and repetitive.
posted by kapers at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm a chick, but I sympathize with your husband. It grates on me immensely to hear someone go over the same problems again and again. I can't fix their problems for them, so now I'm just stressed out myself on their behalf. Why? What good does this accomplish?
I had an ex who tortured me incessantly in this manner. Like you, he decided that his friends weren't the right place to vent, and that I should bear the brunt of all his complaining. I wonder if you're underestimating how stressful it may be for your husband to be the one person you complain to about work.
I'm thinking that if you need to vent, you should do so to a therapist, a journal, or a friend who has similar venting needs, such that you can both do this for each other.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I had an ex who tortured me incessantly in this manner. Like you, he decided that his friends weren't the right place to vent, and that I should bear the brunt of all his complaining. I wonder if you're underestimating how stressful it may be for your husband to be the one person you complain to about work.
I'm thinking that if you need to vent, you should do so to a therapist, a journal, or a friend who has similar venting needs, such that you can both do this for each other.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 2:12 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Couples counseling, even just for 2 or 3 sessions, is exactly perfect for this kind of communication breakdown. A counselor will help both of you figure out how to talk to each other productively.
posted by a strong female character at 2:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 2:16 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is everyone reading this part?
In the two years we've been together, I've discussed problems at work about 4-5 times.
I don't think any reasonable person would consider 2.5 annual conversations about variations on the general theme of work problems overwhelming. I don't think he's being reasonable.
posted by kapers at 2:25 PM on March 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
In the two years we've been together, I've discussed problems at work about 4-5 times.
I don't think any reasonable person would consider 2.5 annual conversations about variations on the general theme of work problems overwhelming. I don't think he's being reasonable.
posted by kapers at 2:25 PM on March 29, 2016 [19 favorites]
I know I'm bringing my own baggage into this, but I know that when my boyfriend is unhappy about his job (unhealthy company, both business-wise and culture-wise) and wants to talk about it and asks what he should do, it takes all of my womanly training in the arts of emotional labor to stop myself from saying "FFS IF YOU'D EVER TAKEN ANY OF MY PRIOR ADVICE YOU WOULDN'T BE IN THIS SITUATION AND I WOULDN'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO THIS EVER AGAIN AND LIFE WOULD BE A MILLION TIMES BETTER!" To me, all the individual work things he worries about don't matter because I just hate his company (mostly for the way they have treated him) and I feel like every bit of time and energy he spends on them is wasted.
I don't know whether you have a job like my BFs or whether your husband perceives you (rightly or wrongly) to have one of those jobs or what. Honestly though, even if we got the work discussions down to two or three times a year, I would still HATE THEM because they're a reminder that he's spending 40-plus hours a week on that stupid trash fire of a company.
posted by mskyle at 2:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I don't know whether you have a job like my BFs or whether your husband perceives you (rightly or wrongly) to have one of those jobs or what. Honestly though, even if we got the work discussions down to two or three times a year, I would still HATE THEM because they're a reminder that he's spending 40-plus hours a week on that stupid trash fire of a company.
posted by mskyle at 2:34 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
Best answer: Why? What good does this accomplish?
As many people have stated, it can help you get perspective on the problems and address them more constructively, not to mention the emotional support of knowing someone has your back and can help you process why it's happening, why it bothers you, what might be really going on, etc.
I don't think it's necessarily a major problem if someone doesn't always have the bandwidth for that at all times; the problem is when it's treated so dismissively, as if there's no reason for someone to live a reflective life. (Or when it's treated like it's just female whining and gossip, versus virtuous stoic manly solution-making. How many threads are there on Metafilter alone about men feeling closed in and lonely because they can't share their problems, especially at work? How many studies are there about the deleterious effects of antisocial behaviors on men's lives as they age? It's a thing. I don't think the Mars/Venus stuff gives anyone enough credit.)
If your husband doesn't like to discuss these problems with you because it stresses him out too much, I think it's on him to say so and to think about his role in your communication as well, instead of blaming you for being too much of a downer because you're not always putting on a perky happy reassuring wifely face when you have concrete stressors in your life. In reality, you'll probably have to have many conversations sussing out his reactions while not stepping on his ego before you can get to a point where you both understand, because men aren't used to needing to do any kind of emotional labor on their own.
It might be fine for you if he just admits that he finds it too stressful, instead of invalidating you so much. It is often a depressing dynamic when one partner can't express what they find uncomfortable about a situation, and instead tries to belittle the other one.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
As many people have stated, it can help you get perspective on the problems and address them more constructively, not to mention the emotional support of knowing someone has your back and can help you process why it's happening, why it bothers you, what might be really going on, etc.
I don't think it's necessarily a major problem if someone doesn't always have the bandwidth for that at all times; the problem is when it's treated so dismissively, as if there's no reason for someone to live a reflective life. (Or when it's treated like it's just female whining and gossip, versus virtuous stoic manly solution-making. How many threads are there on Metafilter alone about men feeling closed in and lonely because they can't share their problems, especially at work? How many studies are there about the deleterious effects of antisocial behaviors on men's lives as they age? It's a thing. I don't think the Mars/Venus stuff gives anyone enough credit.)
If your husband doesn't like to discuss these problems with you because it stresses him out too much, I think it's on him to say so and to think about his role in your communication as well, instead of blaming you for being too much of a downer because you're not always putting on a perky happy reassuring wifely face when you have concrete stressors in your life. In reality, you'll probably have to have many conversations sussing out his reactions while not stepping on his ego before you can get to a point where you both understand, because men aren't used to needing to do any kind of emotional labor on their own.
It might be fine for you if he just admits that he finds it too stressful, instead of invalidating you so much. It is often a depressing dynamic when one partner can't express what they find uncomfortable about a situation, and instead tries to belittle the other one.
posted by stoneandstar at 2:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's clear from the question that it's not the sitcom stereotype "she wants to whine, he wants to solve the problem."
> In my last significant relationship, I talked about job troubles with my partner, and although he didn't see everything the way I did, I felt heard. He listened, gave his opinion, told me what he thought I could do differently, etc. I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm doing everything right and they're horrible.
She would be much happier with Mr. Fix-It. The problem is her husband is Mr. Fuck-It.
I personally would consider it a dealbreaker if he shut you down the same way on other topics too. If you don't want to walk immediately (understandable!), counseling is your best shot, but he has to be on board with it. If three minutes of conversation is too much for him, good luck with that.
posted by booksandlibretti at 2:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
> In my last significant relationship, I talked about job troubles with my partner, and although he didn't see everything the way I did, I felt heard. He listened, gave his opinion, told me what he thought I could do differently, etc. I'm not looking for reassurance that I'm doing everything right and they're horrible.
She would be much happier with Mr. Fix-It. The problem is her husband is Mr. Fuck-It.
I personally would consider it a dealbreaker if he shut you down the same way on other topics too. If you don't want to walk immediately (understandable!), counseling is your best shot, but he has to be on board with it. If three minutes of conversation is too much for him, good luck with that.
posted by booksandlibretti at 2:40 PM on March 29, 2016 [18 favorites]
My mother and I have a similar dynamic. She goes immediately into fix-it/catastrophe mode, while I just to vent for fifteen minutes before I can actually do anything constructive- in fact, venting often helps me clear my head enough for a solution to present itself.
This is what has helped:
a) Not venting to her in the first place- I vent to my therapist, and my friends. Much better for all of us.
b) Therapy, for both her and me.
c) Explicitly telling her what I need from her. 'Mom, I need you to just listen to me for the next ten minutes. Mom, I need you to let me finish my sentence, please.'
It's not perfect by any means, but it has cut down on the screaming/tears/slamming down the phone quite a bit.
posted by Tamanna at 2:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is what has helped:
a) Not venting to her in the first place- I vent to my therapist, and my friends. Much better for all of us.
b) Therapy, for both her and me.
c) Explicitly telling her what I need from her. 'Mom, I need you to just listen to me for the next ten minutes. Mom, I need you to let me finish my sentence, please.'
It's not perfect by any means, but it has cut down on the screaming/tears/slamming down the phone quite a bit.
posted by Tamanna at 2:43 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've seemed to have a tough time in about half the jobs I've had, and some of what I wanted was feedback- is it really that bad? Is it just me?
I missed this the first time- is this a reoccurring thing? Are you in the wrong overall career track, possibly? I feel like significant trouble at half of your jobs seems kinda high, unless you're just starting out/experimenting with different jobs. How long have you been struggling with this stuff?
This is the only topic of conversation that he automatically shuts down
Well, that's good!
Still, his usual contributions is simply "you should quit." He says I don't have to work, but I like having my own money and independence. He's generous with money, but I don't like having to ask / account for money like I'm Lucy Ricardo.
Yeah, he wants you to quit. That's pretty clear. Have you ever discussed the money issue with him? Does he know how you feel about it? Could you find a solution, IE a joint account, so you don't have to ask him?
Last night, I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace), and he interrupted me mid-word to say irritably, "well, what do you WANT?"
Okay, so when I first read this it seemed really mean and harsh of him, but honestly, I think he has a point here too. I mean, what DO you want? If what you want is just "not to be miserable" that's...kind of sad. I think by asking you "what do you want?" he's sort of trying to put the decision making back on you, make it more about your personality, your life. It sounds like you probably were saying things like "so this job wants this and this will suck, and this job wants this and can I do this?" And he wants you to be more like "I want this! My job should give me this!" And you know what, if you are not used to advocating for yourself, or if you are insecure in your overall ability/job skills, it can be hard to put yourself first like that.
Most of my friends are long-distance now, so when I see and talk to them, I want to keep things upbeat and fun.
Okay, you have an issue of not having friends nearby, but aside from that- why does your husband not get this consideration? I mean, I get it, husbands are supposed to see you when you're at your worst and always love you, yadda yadda. But isn't there something to the idea of keeping the relationship fresh? Of being upbeat and fun around him and making that effort for him and not just your friends? I think there's something to it, personally.
My best friend is now living overseas and I've mentioned things to her a few times, and she's confided her work problems to me, but she's heard me out and given me good advice. I have her opinion and stance on the matter, and that's that.
Not to beat the drum here, but "you have her opinion and that's that" - does this not apply to your husband, too?
My mother usually says I need to change industries entirely, and that some of the problems I'm having are common to all workplaces.
Yeah, I got this sense too. It sounds like a sort of overall big picture problem in some ways. Like, not just "this job" but "all jobs" or "my chosen career path" or even "my whole life's purpose." In that case, therapy could really, really help.
posted by quincunx at 2:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
I missed this the first time- is this a reoccurring thing? Are you in the wrong overall career track, possibly? I feel like significant trouble at half of your jobs seems kinda high, unless you're just starting out/experimenting with different jobs. How long have you been struggling with this stuff?
This is the only topic of conversation that he automatically shuts down
Well, that's good!
Still, his usual contributions is simply "you should quit." He says I don't have to work, but I like having my own money and independence. He's generous with money, but I don't like having to ask / account for money like I'm Lucy Ricardo.
Yeah, he wants you to quit. That's pretty clear. Have you ever discussed the money issue with him? Does he know how you feel about it? Could you find a solution, IE a joint account, so you don't have to ask him?
Last night, I started talking about how I was looking for other jobs, and was trying to weigh the positives vs negatives of the job (ie what positives I could only get from this job, what negatives might be common to every workplace), and he interrupted me mid-word to say irritably, "well, what do you WANT?"
Okay, so when I first read this it seemed really mean and harsh of him, but honestly, I think he has a point here too. I mean, what DO you want? If what you want is just "not to be miserable" that's...kind of sad. I think by asking you "what do you want?" he's sort of trying to put the decision making back on you, make it more about your personality, your life. It sounds like you probably were saying things like "so this job wants this and this will suck, and this job wants this and can I do this?" And he wants you to be more like "I want this! My job should give me this!" And you know what, if you are not used to advocating for yourself, or if you are insecure in your overall ability/job skills, it can be hard to put yourself first like that.
Most of my friends are long-distance now, so when I see and talk to them, I want to keep things upbeat and fun.
Okay, you have an issue of not having friends nearby, but aside from that- why does your husband not get this consideration? I mean, I get it, husbands are supposed to see you when you're at your worst and always love you, yadda yadda. But isn't there something to the idea of keeping the relationship fresh? Of being upbeat and fun around him and making that effort for him and not just your friends? I think there's something to it, personally.
My best friend is now living overseas and I've mentioned things to her a few times, and she's confided her work problems to me, but she's heard me out and given me good advice. I have her opinion and stance on the matter, and that's that.
Not to beat the drum here, but "you have her opinion and that's that" - does this not apply to your husband, too?
My mother usually says I need to change industries entirely, and that some of the problems I'm having are common to all workplaces.
Yeah, I got this sense too. It sounds like a sort of overall big picture problem in some ways. Like, not just "this job" but "all jobs" or "my chosen career path" or even "my whole life's purpose." In that case, therapy could really, really help.
posted by quincunx at 2:58 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I found most of the comments helpful and illuminating. I saw a couple of things come up a few times that I'll address:
-YES I do need to quit. There is no question.
-I could have mentioned it more than 4-5 times, but not every week, or even every month or every other month. I'm very conscious of not bringing it up because of his past reactions.
-We seek couples' counseling on kind of an as needed basis. Weekly if we think it's necessary, every other week if we're doing okay. After going weekly all winter, we had our last session two weeks ago almost, and clearly need to reschedule.
-He does talk about recurring problems and expect me to listen, but not like I do. He's pretty to the point, and on a few occasions, I've said "are you sure you don't need to talk about it more?" It's like "this is really bothering me," a few minutes of what it is, I'll suggest a couple of things, and he's just good. He's kind of a bottler.
-His most frequent negative comments about his loved ones (not me) is that they're too negative. I think that it is true of these people.
-He tends to be a little on the depressed and negative side and says he enjoys that I'm so positive and that I help him see the bright side of things / not think catastrophically.
-How many of you all would drop your jobs at your spouse's suggestion? I did, for 3 months right after we moved til I found this job. I hated it. I hated asking for money and having to justify the expense. He's home a lot, so we got on each other's nerves. (The joint account comment made a lot of sense.)
-Yes, I'm sure I've gotten better at complaining. He's never mentioned it-this issue predates him. If anything HE'S the complainer lol. This work issue has no "easy" solution, so it's pretty much the only thing I complain about, at least from what I can see.
-I am looking for another job. It's tough out there.
-I did not start the conversation with "There's a meeting coming up, can I talk to you for 5 minutes" I believe it would have gone a lot better if I had.
Thanks for the support and coping strategies. They're really helping.
Those of you looking at the situation from my husband's perspective are probably absolutely right.
Also, it could be about him not wanting me to work. I hadn't considered that, but it's an insightful perspective. I'll ask him. Really, thanks so much.
posted by serenity_now at 3:06 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
-YES I do need to quit. There is no question.
-I could have mentioned it more than 4-5 times, but not every week, or even every month or every other month. I'm very conscious of not bringing it up because of his past reactions.
-We seek couples' counseling on kind of an as needed basis. Weekly if we think it's necessary, every other week if we're doing okay. After going weekly all winter, we had our last session two weeks ago almost, and clearly need to reschedule.
-He does talk about recurring problems and expect me to listen, but not like I do. He's pretty to the point, and on a few occasions, I've said "are you sure you don't need to talk about it more?" It's like "this is really bothering me," a few minutes of what it is, I'll suggest a couple of things, and he's just good. He's kind of a bottler.
-His most frequent negative comments about his loved ones (not me) is that they're too negative. I think that it is true of these people.
-He tends to be a little on the depressed and negative side and says he enjoys that I'm so positive and that I help him see the bright side of things / not think catastrophically.
-How many of you all would drop your jobs at your spouse's suggestion? I did, for 3 months right after we moved til I found this job. I hated it. I hated asking for money and having to justify the expense. He's home a lot, so we got on each other's nerves. (The joint account comment made a lot of sense.)
-Yes, I'm sure I've gotten better at complaining. He's never mentioned it-this issue predates him. If anything HE'S the complainer lol. This work issue has no "easy" solution, so it's pretty much the only thing I complain about, at least from what I can see.
-I am looking for another job. It's tough out there.
-I did not start the conversation with "There's a meeting coming up, can I talk to you for 5 minutes" I believe it would have gone a lot better if I had.
Thanks for the support and coping strategies. They're really helping.
Those of you looking at the situation from my husband's perspective are probably absolutely right.
Also, it could be about him not wanting me to work. I hadn't considered that, but it's an insightful perspective. I'll ask him. Really, thanks so much.
posted by serenity_now at 3:06 PM on March 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also a question that might be helpful for you to have answered for yourself before you talk to him - would you be okay not working if you didn't have to ask him for money or things? If there was just a set amount for you in a separate account every month?
posted by corb at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2016
posted by corb at 3:38 PM on March 29, 2016
He tends to be a little on the depressed and negative side and says he enjoys that I'm so positive and that I help him see the bright side of things / not think catastrophically.
Ah, bingo. He’s depressive, doesn’t like other people who complain because he doesn’t have the resources to be emotionally supportive or resilient. While this makes sense, it’s not necessarily fair to you, as I’m sure you realize. I would think this is an excellent candidate issue for couples counseling. You can't be just a happy pill for him.
He's basically saying "stop telling me about this stressor because it's stressing me out," which is a predictable response from a depressive person. Eventually, though, you will need his support, he should be working toward a place where he can give it (seems like he might be already).
posted by stoneandstar at 3:47 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
Ah, bingo. He’s depressive, doesn’t like other people who complain because he doesn’t have the resources to be emotionally supportive or resilient. While this makes sense, it’s not necessarily fair to you, as I’m sure you realize. I would think this is an excellent candidate issue for couples counseling. You can't be just a happy pill for him.
He's basically saying "stop telling me about this stressor because it's stressing me out," which is a predictable response from a depressive person. Eventually, though, you will need his support, he should be working toward a place where he can give it (seems like he might be already).
posted by stoneandstar at 3:47 PM on March 29, 2016 [13 favorites]
He's not the best listener overall, and can be pretty rude / socially unaware
No offense to him, but what do you get out of interacting with him? People who are like this will either unintentionally (or intentionally) make you feel like garbage for being human, and when that happens enough, the damage can be really difficult to undo.
The longer you have to deal with someone like this, the more difficult it becomes for you to relate to people with actual social skills in a healthy fashion. Do you really want to internalize that you're not lovable or tolerable if you're having a rough go of things? Consider that one carefully.
posted by blerghamot at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
No offense to him, but what do you get out of interacting with him? People who are like this will either unintentionally (or intentionally) make you feel like garbage for being human, and when that happens enough, the damage can be really difficult to undo.
The longer you have to deal with someone like this, the more difficult it becomes for you to relate to people with actual social skills in a healthy fashion. Do you really want to internalize that you're not lovable or tolerable if you're having a rough go of things? Consider that one carefully.
posted by blerghamot at 3:56 PM on March 29, 2016 [7 favorites]
I want to chime in with another perspective from someone who dislikes his spouse's work complaining (though I think I do a pretty good job of listening supportively, and only offering solutions if she specifically asks what I think she should do). For me, it has nothing to do with "he's a man who wants to solve your problems and you aren't letting him."
My job can be stressful and exhausting at times. So can hers. By the time I get home in the evening, I just want to relax and take my mind off of it. Spending an hour talking about all of her problems at work keeps me right in "work brain" mode, because the problems she faces are similar to many of the problems I face. I have a hard time compartmentalizing, so the only way I can truly relax is to completely shut off that part of my brain and do something unrelated to work. When she wants to talk about work stresses, I know she's not trying to add to my own stress, but it definitely does that. So I kind of dread those conversations, especially when they start as soon as I get home from work, or (maybe worse) right when we wake up in the morning.
That said, I understand that she needs to vent about that stuff (and she graciously lets me vent when I need to). It's part of the give and take of marriage. I would never think of shutting her down or refusing to listen. So my point isn't that the behavior is acceptable in any way, I just wanted to add another perspective for why someone might not enjoy talking about this.
posted by primethyme at 5:15 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
My job can be stressful and exhausting at times. So can hers. By the time I get home in the evening, I just want to relax and take my mind off of it. Spending an hour talking about all of her problems at work keeps me right in "work brain" mode, because the problems she faces are similar to many of the problems I face. I have a hard time compartmentalizing, so the only way I can truly relax is to completely shut off that part of my brain and do something unrelated to work. When she wants to talk about work stresses, I know she's not trying to add to my own stress, but it definitely does that. So I kind of dread those conversations, especially when they start as soon as I get home from work, or (maybe worse) right when we wake up in the morning.
That said, I understand that she needs to vent about that stuff (and she graciously lets me vent when I need to). It's part of the give and take of marriage. I would never think of shutting her down or refusing to listen. So my point isn't that the behavior is acceptable in any way, I just wanted to add another perspective for why someone might not enjoy talking about this.
posted by primethyme at 5:15 PM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
From your last responses, I get the feeling that you two have not worked out the money thing. There should be a deposit from every paycheck into an account the you can spend from at will. It should cover everything you normally buy or pay for, plus a little. And, by a little, I mean you shouldn't have to ask for funds for a new dress, or coat, or his Christmas present.
posted by SemiSalt at 5:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by SemiSalt at 5:35 PM on March 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
> I’d also just like to add that a man telling a woman to just “not work” or “quit” every time she has a professional hiccup is massively sexist, whether he intends it or not. (He’s guilty of sexism either way, whether through ignorance or direct sexism.) It’s one of the precise reasons that women are underrepresented and underpaid in so many fields.
Quoted for truth.
A little empathy from him is really, really not too much to ask. If it makes him anxious to hear you vent, he can say "it makes me anxious and I don't know how to help you or make you feel better" rather than just telling you how boring and annoying your work talk is. Jesus. I'm sure that everything he says isn't scintillating either, but part of being in a relationship is being nice when your partner needs you.
posted by desuetude at 8:11 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
Quoted for truth.
A little empathy from him is really, really not too much to ask. If it makes him anxious to hear you vent, he can say "it makes me anxious and I don't know how to help you or make you feel better" rather than just telling you how boring and annoying your work talk is. Jesus. I'm sure that everything he says isn't scintillating either, but part of being in a relationship is being nice when your partner needs you.
posted by desuetude at 8:11 PM on March 29, 2016 [11 favorites]
I just want to make sure that this point is explicitly said somewhere in this thread: it's okay to expect your partner to perform a certain amount of emotional labor. It sounds from your update like you are the only one doing this work. No one partner should be the sole source of comfort, listening, and reassurance in a relationship.
It is perfectly reasonable to want a partner that knows the empathy process. It is a big deal, and it is perfectly reasonable for it to be a dealbreaker.
posted by Shouraku at 8:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
It is perfectly reasonable to want a partner that knows the empathy process. It is a big deal, and it is perfectly reasonable for it to be a dealbreaker.
posted by Shouraku at 8:24 PM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
The work thing wouldn't be a problem for me but then I come from a household where you don't discuss "your private business" so mine is not a healthy perspective. If it's a deal breaker for you, it's a deal breaker and you don't need our permission to leave this bland, obnoxious creature (no offence).
When I say rude, I mean, he'll say things like "okay what's the point?" or "I'm not interested in this topic" if a story goes long/rambles on (not just to me).
This, for me, is unacceptable. Are you interested in everything he has to say? Because he sounds as dull as tights! I would set a boundary here and tell him to speak to you properly. If he makes no attempt, I would speak to him in exactly the same way and make myself less available to listen to him because some people learn that way - it's not ideal but some do. If that fails then i'd make plans to move on.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 6:02 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
When I say rude, I mean, he'll say things like "okay what's the point?" or "I'm not interested in this topic" if a story goes long/rambles on (not just to me).
This, for me, is unacceptable. Are you interested in everything he has to say? Because he sounds as dull as tights! I would set a boundary here and tell him to speak to you properly. If he makes no attempt, I would speak to him in exactly the same way and make myself less available to listen to him because some people learn that way - it's not ideal but some do. If that fails then i'd make plans to move on.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 6:02 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: So this is my last update. Thanks again, all, for your suggestions and support.
Before I posted the topic, I told my husband that I was spending a few nights at my mother's and would talk with him when I got back. I told him that I felt so frustrated and that saying anything to him at the moment felt futile because he acted like what I said wasn't important to him. Before that, I was pretty cold, and we slept separately. I know "the silent treatment" is considered pretty harsh and unproductive, but I have trouble separating that from taking healthy space. I have a very high temper and need a lot of space and quiet when I'm angry, or else I feel like I will yell and be unproductive. I called my mother and she recommended that I go home and work it out, so after work, I went home. My husband didn't show til an hour ago to feed the cats. He'd slept at a friend's place.
He came in and said that he was sorry and he would try to do a better job at listening and wouldn't give advice unless I asked and would just listen and be supportive. I obviously wasn't really ready to talk...I told him that he'd said that before, and that it made me feel so small and unimportant that I couldn't talk about work. I asked him "how many times have I talked about work?" and told him how selfish I thought he was. He pulled out that whole "do you only have negative things to say about me right now? Why can't you tell me something positive?" and I decided to leave. He said "I'm sorry but it's hard for me to hear you go on and on about work" and pretty much lost it. I said "I wasn't going on and on. You didn't even let me talk for a MINUTE!" kicking over a couple of lamps for emphasis.
I felt really sad and upset and out of control. I said I didn't like being that person, that breaks things (I've literally NEVER done that before) and has to yell or dissolve into frustrated tears just to get a little attention. He said that I was right and he was sorry, and he just wanted to listen, and wouldn't judge or be defensive. But I couldn't think of anything new... it seems like it's all been said. All I said was, "I don't have anything else to say" so he got out of my car without another word, and into his, and drove away.
At this point, it feels right. We have communication problems all the time, and we haven't really gone into depth with our counsellor about them. Though he is American and was born and raised in this country, I'm thinking he has some kind of physical issue. He was diagnosed with ADD as a kid, but was never medicated or taken to therapy (his parents were divorced- one took him to be evaluated, the other said "I'm not drugging my baby!" and that was that). He's also had concussions before, which I think have affected his memory. He takes gingko for his memory, and though he agreed to see a doctor when I made it a big point, he doesn't have the initiative to do it (because he doesn't want to) unless I would make the appointment and take him. Same with him agreeing to get a cell phone. It still hasn't happened. The communication problems are definite, like cutting off or "not wanting to talk negative" or "yeah you're right, I was in my own world and I didn't hear what you just said," but also kind of nebulous and mysterious to me.
For instance this morning, he said something like "Would it help you if I listened now?" and I replied, "how could it help?" and he replied "how could what help?" This happens a lot. It's like he doesn't know what a pronoun is or something. I feel like I could be clearer in my speech, but it's frustrating to remember to talk like he is an immigrant toddler when every other person I speak to could easily follow the pronoun back. When I say something in an argument and he replies in a way that I think is strange, I'll say "what did you hear?" or "what do you think I just said?" and he can't repeat it. His argument is that it's "traumatic" and he has trouble remembering specifics around traumatic events. I buy it in some cases eg "I hardly remember anything from the months around my mom's death," but an argument?? Of course, he can remember minutiae of things that he's interested in. He has a pretty good, but worse than average, memory about events before his accident, and a pretty poor short-term memory in general. It's just worse for me. He also says I have a better than average memory, which may be true, but that doesn't mean his is average.
I'm not feeling good about staying with him, because I don't feel patient enough to make it work, and he doesn't seem mature enough. Yeah, he apologizes really well and seems so sincere and humble, but there's only so much I can take, and maybe someone else could do better. I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
posted by serenity_now at 8:30 AM on March 30, 2016
Before I posted the topic, I told my husband that I was spending a few nights at my mother's and would talk with him when I got back. I told him that I felt so frustrated and that saying anything to him at the moment felt futile because he acted like what I said wasn't important to him. Before that, I was pretty cold, and we slept separately. I know "the silent treatment" is considered pretty harsh and unproductive, but I have trouble separating that from taking healthy space. I have a very high temper and need a lot of space and quiet when I'm angry, or else I feel like I will yell and be unproductive. I called my mother and she recommended that I go home and work it out, so after work, I went home. My husband didn't show til an hour ago to feed the cats. He'd slept at a friend's place.
He came in and said that he was sorry and he would try to do a better job at listening and wouldn't give advice unless I asked and would just listen and be supportive. I obviously wasn't really ready to talk...I told him that he'd said that before, and that it made me feel so small and unimportant that I couldn't talk about work. I asked him "how many times have I talked about work?" and told him how selfish I thought he was. He pulled out that whole "do you only have negative things to say about me right now? Why can't you tell me something positive?" and I decided to leave. He said "I'm sorry but it's hard for me to hear you go on and on about work" and pretty much lost it. I said "I wasn't going on and on. You didn't even let me talk for a MINUTE!" kicking over a couple of lamps for emphasis.
I felt really sad and upset and out of control. I said I didn't like being that person, that breaks things (I've literally NEVER done that before) and has to yell or dissolve into frustrated tears just to get a little attention. He said that I was right and he was sorry, and he just wanted to listen, and wouldn't judge or be defensive. But I couldn't think of anything new... it seems like it's all been said. All I said was, "I don't have anything else to say" so he got out of my car without another word, and into his, and drove away.
At this point, it feels right. We have communication problems all the time, and we haven't really gone into depth with our counsellor about them. Though he is American and was born and raised in this country, I'm thinking he has some kind of physical issue. He was diagnosed with ADD as a kid, but was never medicated or taken to therapy (his parents were divorced- one took him to be evaluated, the other said "I'm not drugging my baby!" and that was that). He's also had concussions before, which I think have affected his memory. He takes gingko for his memory, and though he agreed to see a doctor when I made it a big point, he doesn't have the initiative to do it (because he doesn't want to) unless I would make the appointment and take him. Same with him agreeing to get a cell phone. It still hasn't happened. The communication problems are definite, like cutting off or "not wanting to talk negative" or "yeah you're right, I was in my own world and I didn't hear what you just said," but also kind of nebulous and mysterious to me.
For instance this morning, he said something like "Would it help you if I listened now?" and I replied, "how could it help?" and he replied "how could what help?" This happens a lot. It's like he doesn't know what a pronoun is or something. I feel like I could be clearer in my speech, but it's frustrating to remember to talk like he is an immigrant toddler when every other person I speak to could easily follow the pronoun back. When I say something in an argument and he replies in a way that I think is strange, I'll say "what did you hear?" or "what do you think I just said?" and he can't repeat it. His argument is that it's "traumatic" and he has trouble remembering specifics around traumatic events. I buy it in some cases eg "I hardly remember anything from the months around my mom's death," but an argument?? Of course, he can remember minutiae of things that he's interested in. He has a pretty good, but worse than average, memory about events before his accident, and a pretty poor short-term memory in general. It's just worse for me. He also says I have a better than average memory, which may be true, but that doesn't mean his is average.
I'm not feeling good about staying with him, because I don't feel patient enough to make it work, and he doesn't seem mature enough. Yeah, he apologizes really well and seems so sincere and humble, but there's only so much I can take, and maybe someone else could do better. I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
posted by serenity_now at 8:30 AM on March 30, 2016
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
This is not a judgment on whether you should or should not end your marriage, but the sunk cost fallacy is a real thing and keeps lots of people in bad situations that will never improve. Don't let yourself fall victim to it.
posted by phunniemee at 8:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is not a judgment on whether you should or should not end your marriage, but the sunk cost fallacy is a real thing and keeps lots of people in bad situations that will never improve. Don't let yourself fall victim to it.
posted by phunniemee at 8:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
Generally when a marriage ends "so early" it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Continuing to make a mistake for another 10 years, so it'll be "long enough", is not really a logical way to handle having made a mistake.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on March 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
Generally when a marriage ends "so early" it shouldn't have happened in the first place. Continuing to make a mistake for another 10 years, so it'll be "long enough", is not really a logical way to handle having made a mistake.
posted by Lyn Never at 8:41 AM on March 30, 2016 [10 favorites]
> I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
What phunniemee and Lyn Never said. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and giving it another year or ten, or the rest of your life, isn't going to make it better. It sounds like he's got a hard row to hoe, but lots of people do, and it's not your responsibility to fix them all. You deserve someone who will take you and your life—and your work problems—seriously.
posted by languagehat at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
What phunniemee and Lyn Never said. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and giving it another year or ten, or the rest of your life, isn't going to make it better. It sounds like he's got a hard row to hoe, but lots of people do, and it's not your responsibility to fix them all. You deserve someone who will take you and your life—and your work problems—seriously.
posted by languagehat at 9:17 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
No no no please do not think like this. It is far better to get out of a bad marriage quickly than to spend years of your life banging your head against a wall.
posted by Tamanna at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
No no no please do not think like this. It is far better to get out of a bad marriage quickly than to spend years of your life banging your head against a wall.
posted by Tamanna at 9:22 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
You are absolutely within your rights to walk away, but your update, including "He's also had concussions before, which I think have affected his memory," makes a lot of this seem like potential neurological issues. Some of this may be that his brain can't physically do what he (or you) is expecting it to do, or at least not without a lot of retraining.
Which, again, does not mean it's your responsibility to figure it out, or even to help him figure it out, or even to stick around while he figures it out, but it may explain part of what's going on.
posted by lazuli at 10:00 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which, again, does not mean it's your responsibility to figure it out, or even to help him figure it out, or even to stick around while he figures it out, but it may explain part of what's going on.
posted by lazuli at 10:00 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
I replied, "how could it help?" and he replied "how could what help?" This happens a lot. It's like he doesn't know what a pronoun is or something.
This sounds so frustrating! And it's familiar to me because that is how my abuser talked to me. I'm willing to bet he knows what words mean. He's picking on you, picking a fight, keeping you on your toes, keeping control. Gingko won't fix this.
I know the feeling of wanting to diagnose him, but whatever the cause, his treatment of you sounds really unfair. This sounds like so much work with so little payoff. No one would blame you for leaving if that is what you want.
posted by kapers at 10:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
This sounds so frustrating! And it's familiar to me because that is how my abuser talked to me. I'm willing to bet he knows what words mean. He's picking on you, picking a fight, keeping you on your toes, keeping control. Gingko won't fix this.
I know the feeling of wanting to diagnose him, but whatever the cause, his treatment of you sounds really unfair. This sounds like so much work with so little payoff. No one would blame you for leaving if that is what you want.
posted by kapers at 10:36 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
For instance this morning, he said something like "Would it help you if I listened now?" and I replied, "how could it help?" and he replied "how could what help?" This happens a lot. It's like he doesn't know what a pronoun is or something.
Yes, I went through this with a guy who would play dumb when he didn't want to talk about something anymore. If I persisted-- like, really nagged him for twenty minutes, spelling everything out for him-- it turned out he had an answer, he just wanted to hide behind "it depends what the meaning of 'is' is" every time I was trying to say something important about feeling a lack of connection. In my opinion it's a way of belittling you and ignoring the problem.
I'm not sure what's with this? Some people care so little about their partner's feelings that they refuse to see the problem and they think if they just ignore it and gaslight hard enough, it doesn't really exist.
If your marriage has been short and you're already so pissed at him that you're kicking over lamps, which you've never done before, I have a feeling he's driving you crazy with his bullshit and it's not going to get any better unless he really commits to stop being a jerk and admitting he understands the English language. (I'm sure there's stuff you could work on too, but at the point where you're telling him over and over what you need and he's turning to dumb tricks to keep you feeling invalidated, that's gaslighting and there's nothing you can do on your end.)
If (and that's a big if) you think it's not right to stay in the marriage, don't worry about long or short. I know a lot of people who have kind of ruined or at least sidetracked their lives because they were afraid to leave a young marriage that was the wrong decision.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:50 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, I went through this with a guy who would play dumb when he didn't want to talk about something anymore. If I persisted-- like, really nagged him for twenty minutes, spelling everything out for him-- it turned out he had an answer, he just wanted to hide behind "it depends what the meaning of 'is' is" every time I was trying to say something important about feeling a lack of connection. In my opinion it's a way of belittling you and ignoring the problem.
I'm not sure what's with this? Some people care so little about their partner's feelings that they refuse to see the problem and they think if they just ignore it and gaslight hard enough, it doesn't really exist.
If your marriage has been short and you're already so pissed at him that you're kicking over lamps, which you've never done before, I have a feeling he's driving you crazy with his bullshit and it's not going to get any better unless he really commits to stop being a jerk and admitting he understands the English language. (I'm sure there's stuff you could work on too, but at the point where you're telling him over and over what you need and he's turning to dumb tricks to keep you feeling invalidated, that's gaslighting and there's nothing you can do on your end.)
If (and that's a big if) you think it's not right to stay in the marriage, don't worry about long or short. I know a lot of people who have kind of ruined or at least sidetracked their lives because they were afraid to leave a young marriage that was the wrong decision.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:50 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
Don't balk! Think of it as saving yourself years of headache, heartbreak and needless frustration. It seems like there's a fundamental communicative breakdown between you two -- and from what you've shared, I don't think you'll be able to make much headway. I think you should frame this as: "We're not compatible" and also, "I am dodging a bullet" by getting out early.
The way you're husband is talking to you is not only extremely shitty for a husband, it's also really really bad just in terms of friendship and intimacy of any kind. If he acts as though he doesn't know what words mean, or if he can't listen to your concerns about work for more than one minute, he completely lacks the basic skills necessary for a functioning and healthy relationship. Also: he's being extremely dismissive and disrespectful. To give you some context: My partner asks me how work went every single day and has, by this point in our relationship, listened to me b*tch and moan about work for more hours than I could count. I also ask her how work is going every single day and even if I'm tired or distracted or stressed I make sure to try to be present and listen to what's going on with her, because I love her and I care about her.
I think you should be very clear in your mind that you two are't compatible and that it is in your best interests to leave this idiot behind. You kicked over a lamp, that's a pretty unpleasant state of affairs. Remind yourself in the future that if someone makes you so angry that you want to destroy furniture, it's a pretty strong sign that you should leave.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
Don't balk! Think of it as saving yourself years of headache, heartbreak and needless frustration. It seems like there's a fundamental communicative breakdown between you two -- and from what you've shared, I don't think you'll be able to make much headway. I think you should frame this as: "We're not compatible" and also, "I am dodging a bullet" by getting out early.
The way you're husband is talking to you is not only extremely shitty for a husband, it's also really really bad just in terms of friendship and intimacy of any kind. If he acts as though he doesn't know what words mean, or if he can't listen to your concerns about work for more than one minute, he completely lacks the basic skills necessary for a functioning and healthy relationship. Also: he's being extremely dismissive and disrespectful. To give you some context: My partner asks me how work went every single day and has, by this point in our relationship, listened to me b*tch and moan about work for more hours than I could count. I also ask her how work is going every single day and even if I'm tired or distracted or stressed I make sure to try to be present and listen to what's going on with her, because I love her and I care about her.
I think you should be very clear in your mind that you two are't compatible and that it is in your best interests to leave this idiot behind. You kicked over a lamp, that's a pretty unpleasant state of affairs. Remind yourself in the future that if someone makes you so angry that you want to destroy furniture, it's a pretty strong sign that you should leave.
posted by Gray Skies at 11:18 AM on March 30, 2016 [2 favorites]
For instance this morning, he said something like "Would it help you if I listened now?" and I replied, "how could it help?" and he replied "how could what help?" This happens a lot. It's like he doesn't know what a pronoun is or something.
There are people who do this who need clarification/understanding of every little thing. However, most of the people i've met who did this were abusive/sadistic, getting a kick out of making the other person work hard for an answer. It's a form of control. I understand you're trying to communicate with him and trying to get him to understand but at some point, you just need to let go and accept that you cannot reason with unreasonable people. You did not marry a reasonable person. I get the feeling that deep down he is convinced that he has no problem and that saying the right things will keep you quiet. Instead of trying to speak to him, just make plans to separate. I wouldn't discuss this with him any further. He's irrational. Let his doctor worry about the concussion.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:17 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
There are people who do this who need clarification/understanding of every little thing. However, most of the people i've met who did this were abusive/sadistic, getting a kick out of making the other person work hard for an answer. It's a form of control. I understand you're trying to communicate with him and trying to get him to understand but at some point, you just need to let go and accept that you cannot reason with unreasonable people. You did not marry a reasonable person. I get the feeling that deep down he is convinced that he has no problem and that saying the right things will keep you quiet. Instead of trying to speak to him, just make plans to separate. I wouldn't discuss this with him any further. He's irrational. Let his doctor worry about the concussion.
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 5:17 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
> I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
There is a LOT of baggage in our culture about what "a marriage" is, or is supposed to be; consider the way we talk about marriages "failing" or "being a failure" or things that "kill" a marriage. I know these are not the words you just used, but that judgmental stuff still seeps in. You can reject that. Marriage isn't a "thing" that you're snuffing out. Marriage is a partnership, and this one isn't working as such.
posted by desuetude at 8:43 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is a LOT of baggage in our culture about what "a marriage" is, or is supposed to be; consider the way we talk about marriages "failing" or "being a failure" or things that "kill" a marriage. I know these are not the words you just used, but that judgmental stuff still seeps in. You can reject that. Marriage isn't a "thing" that you're snuffing out. Marriage is a partnership, and this one isn't working as such.
posted by desuetude at 8:43 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think what I'm starting to sense here is that he is really unreliable for you. He offers to listen and then does not. He says he will try but it sounds as though he has not done that in the past. He seems to be making very little effort to address his apparent memory issues with regard to tracking your relationship.
If your partner isn't trustworthy, meaning they do not come through for you and you cannot rely on their promises and commitments, that is indeed a deal breaker for your relationship.
I'd say you two are at a crisis point. He needs to come through in a consistent way for you on an ongoing basis. I'd strongly suggest you get this nailed down with a marriage counselor, and let him know the stakes are high, meaning if he can't do this, you can't continue.
I also wouldn't beat yourself up about the lamp breaking. It's very atypical for you and I think just indicates you have hit a high frustration point, meaning you need help trying to resolve this (or else end it.)
posted by bearwife at 11:26 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
If your partner isn't trustworthy, meaning they do not come through for you and you cannot rely on their promises and commitments, that is indeed a deal breaker for your relationship.
I'd say you two are at a crisis point. He needs to come through in a consistent way for you on an ongoing basis. I'd strongly suggest you get this nailed down with a marriage counselor, and let him know the stakes are high, meaning if he can't do this, you can't continue.
I also wouldn't beat yourself up about the lamp breaking. It's very atypical for you and I think just indicates you have hit a high frustration point, meaning you need help trying to resolve this (or else end it.)
posted by bearwife at 11:26 AM on March 31, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the two years we've been together, I've discussed problems at work about 4-5 times.
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
My husband and I were together six years before getting married. At the time I thought that seemed SO LONG, but now I wouldn't have done it any other way. I cannot even fathom being married to someone I've only been with for two years. The good news is, the entire relationship is ending "early", not just the marriage. You deserve better and the sooner you end this, the sooner you can find it.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:58 PM on March 31, 2016
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
My husband and I were together six years before getting married. At the time I thought that seemed SO LONG, but now I wouldn't have done it any other way. I cannot even fathom being married to someone I've only been with for two years. The good news is, the entire relationship is ending "early", not just the marriage. You deserve better and the sooner you end this, the sooner you can find it.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 1:58 PM on March 31, 2016
I agree about crisis point and that you may end up needing to leave this guy, because it seems like you are not very compatible. At the same time, after your update, I feel for him a little. "Would it help you if I listened now?" is a vulnerable thing to say and an olive branch. Your response is harsh. Perhaps he says things like that (his seemingly 'didn't hear you' response) when he's taken aback or hurt? Sort of a defense mechanism? Was he ever abused? Regardless, you can still leave him and it's not like you have to stick around to see if he can rehabilitate himself, which could take a long time.
posted by treehorn+bunny at 6:51 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by treehorn+bunny at 6:51 PM on April 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just really balk at ending a marriage so early.
Don't. The marriage isn't working. You've already tried to fix it, both on your own and as a team. You've given it the old college try. Now it's time to go, and that is 100% okay and not something to be ashamed of. Given that he's has a history of being obtuse/evasive, I would advise you to lawyer up, take a good hard look at your finances, and prepare to act fast so that you aren't left without some means to support yourself if you should decide to separate.
posted by Hermione Granger at 4:33 PM on April 6, 2016
Don't. The marriage isn't working. You've already tried to fix it, both on your own and as a team. You've given it the old college try. Now it's time to go, and that is 100% okay and not something to be ashamed of. Given that he's has a history of being obtuse/evasive, I would advise you to lawyer up, take a good hard look at your finances, and prepare to act fast so that you aren't left without some means to support yourself if you should decide to separate.
posted by Hermione Granger at 4:33 PM on April 6, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Hoopo at 10:19 AM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]