Should we pursue this negligence (?) at our daycare?
March 18, 2016 8:52 PM Subscribe
My son (he will be 3 next week) has a blister on his leg resulting from exposure to bleach while at daycare. Apparently, the cleaning crew left some bleach on the floor, and he knelt in it, and it ate a hole through his pants and left a blister on his leg. The daycare seems as horrified by this as we are. How should we proceed?
YANAL / YANML. This morning, the daily operations director of our daycare called me at work to tell me that my 3-year-old son's pants were ruined because there was bleach on the floor, left by the "overzealous" cleaning crew they recently hired (a 3rd party company; not part of the daycare staff). She offered to give us the value of the pants. I was just happy to hear that nothing was wrong. I asked (twice) if he was okay and if they had cleaned him off, and she said (twice) that he was absolutely fine. I went about my workday.
When I picked him up, I looked at the pants and was appalled - there was a LOT of bleach, covering most of the front of the left lower leg! And there was a hole just below one knee, where the bleach had eaten through the fabric. When I looked at my son's leg, I saw a blister about 1cm in diameter, plus a couple of smaller red spots that correspond with the hole in the pants. Somehow NO ONE noticed this blister during the 9 hours he was there. The teachers who were there at pickup kept shaking their heads and saying that this was terrible, unacceptable, etc. I asked them to watch my kids for a few minutes while I spoke to the front desk staff. I then spent about 45 minutes speaking to the secretary and the operations director, who also called the owner of the daycare so I could speak to her directly. Everyone was extremely apologetic, said they were also angry about the cleaning crew's mistake, agreed that I should be pissed off, etc. No one was defensive or tried to brush it off. They seemed genuinely appalled by the incident. The owner told me that she had already spoken to the cleaning company's supervisor, and that she filed a claim (not sure with who exactly), and that that entity would be calling me directly to discuss next steps. We were advised to take him to a doctor this weekend just to check it out. My son doesn't seem especially distressed or uncomfortable, although he says it hurts when we try to touch it.
It makes me sick to think of my son kneeling in a puddle of bleach while it was burning into his skin. I'm confused about how it could be that no one noticed this blister all day - does it take a long time for bleach to damage skin? Is it reasonable that they might have looked at his leg when they washed him and changed his clothes, but that the blister did not appear for several more hours?
Another possibly important thing to note: Apparently, the woman who opened the daycare this morning noticed a strong bleach smell when she came in (this is according to the operations director; I did not actually speak to the person who opened). My husband, who dropped my son off this morning said he did not notice a bleach smell.
Possibly relevant details: we are in the US (New Jersey). The daycare is a large facility with about 150 kids divided by age into about 8 classrooms. The owner is a registered nurse, and there is another full-time nurse on the staff (she was not there today). I am a business owner in our small, extremely networked town, and I don't really want my name dragged through some lawsuit with this daycare. We still need daycare and waitlists are long around here, so I don't want to burn any bridges if I don't have to. We have been at this daycare for about 1.5 years, and in general we like this place.
So my question is, how do we proceed? Who is actually at fault (if anyone) in this situation? We are certainly not looking for some windfall, although I think either the daycare or the cleaning company should cover any medical costs that are not picked up by our insurance. Obviously, I also want to make sure that nothing like this ever happens to another family. I can't decide if this is worth pursuing and losing sleep over. On the one hand, I don't think my son is likely to have any long-term ill effects from this (maybe a small scar?); on the other hand, there was so much bleach on the floor of a DAYCARE that it actually ate through fabric and caused a chemical burn. That's definitely unacceptable! I expect certain injuries at daycare (clunked heads, bruises from minor accidents, stained clothes...) but I do NOT expect that my son will be sitting in a puddle of bleach!!
What, if anything, should we do? Thank you!
YANAL / YANML. This morning, the daily operations director of our daycare called me at work to tell me that my 3-year-old son's pants were ruined because there was bleach on the floor, left by the "overzealous" cleaning crew they recently hired (a 3rd party company; not part of the daycare staff). She offered to give us the value of the pants. I was just happy to hear that nothing was wrong. I asked (twice) if he was okay and if they had cleaned him off, and she said (twice) that he was absolutely fine. I went about my workday.
When I picked him up, I looked at the pants and was appalled - there was a LOT of bleach, covering most of the front of the left lower leg! And there was a hole just below one knee, where the bleach had eaten through the fabric. When I looked at my son's leg, I saw a blister about 1cm in diameter, plus a couple of smaller red spots that correspond with the hole in the pants. Somehow NO ONE noticed this blister during the 9 hours he was there. The teachers who were there at pickup kept shaking their heads and saying that this was terrible, unacceptable, etc. I asked them to watch my kids for a few minutes while I spoke to the front desk staff. I then spent about 45 minutes speaking to the secretary and the operations director, who also called the owner of the daycare so I could speak to her directly. Everyone was extremely apologetic, said they were also angry about the cleaning crew's mistake, agreed that I should be pissed off, etc. No one was defensive or tried to brush it off. They seemed genuinely appalled by the incident. The owner told me that she had already spoken to the cleaning company's supervisor, and that she filed a claim (not sure with who exactly), and that that entity would be calling me directly to discuss next steps. We were advised to take him to a doctor this weekend just to check it out. My son doesn't seem especially distressed or uncomfortable, although he says it hurts when we try to touch it.
It makes me sick to think of my son kneeling in a puddle of bleach while it was burning into his skin. I'm confused about how it could be that no one noticed this blister all day - does it take a long time for bleach to damage skin? Is it reasonable that they might have looked at his leg when they washed him and changed his clothes, but that the blister did not appear for several more hours?
Another possibly important thing to note: Apparently, the woman who opened the daycare this morning noticed a strong bleach smell when she came in (this is according to the operations director; I did not actually speak to the person who opened). My husband, who dropped my son off this morning said he did not notice a bleach smell.
Possibly relevant details: we are in the US (New Jersey). The daycare is a large facility with about 150 kids divided by age into about 8 classrooms. The owner is a registered nurse, and there is another full-time nurse on the staff (she was not there today). I am a business owner in our small, extremely networked town, and I don't really want my name dragged through some lawsuit with this daycare. We still need daycare and waitlists are long around here, so I don't want to burn any bridges if I don't have to. We have been at this daycare for about 1.5 years, and in general we like this place.
So my question is, how do we proceed? Who is actually at fault (if anyone) in this situation? We are certainly not looking for some windfall, although I think either the daycare or the cleaning company should cover any medical costs that are not picked up by our insurance. Obviously, I also want to make sure that nothing like this ever happens to another family. I can't decide if this is worth pursuing and losing sleep over. On the one hand, I don't think my son is likely to have any long-term ill effects from this (maybe a small scar?); on the other hand, there was so much bleach on the floor of a DAYCARE that it actually ate through fabric and caused a chemical burn. That's definitely unacceptable! I expect certain injuries at daycare (clunked heads, bruises from minor accidents, stained clothes...) but I do NOT expect that my son will be sitting in a puddle of bleach!!
What, if anything, should we do? Thank you!
I think what you do is you decide whether you think the owner of the daycare center has taken this matter seriously enough, including possibly firing the janitorial service. It's hard to control the quality of janitorial companies. The way that business works, the company that obtains the contract from the customer sometimes sells that contract to another company that actually does the cleaning. So you are not just talking about 3rd parties, there are sometimes 4th or even more removed parties. For that reason, business owners really need to carefully monitor what the janitorial companies are doing, for example what cleaning products they are using (if it were my child's school, I would consider trying to nudge the school toward requiring "natural" cleaning products - but of course that would require even more vigilance to make sure the actual cleaning crew is adhering to the requirement).
posted by OCDan at 9:10 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by OCDan at 9:10 PM on March 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would encourage you to ask for the name of the cleaning company's insurer and pursue this with them. The daycare sounds like it's doing the right thing.
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Chaussette and the Pussy Cats at 9:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
Everyone is lucky that with a puddle that big, no child got this chemical in their eyes or their mouth. Being a clear liquid, an eye flush might not have been given in time to prevent permanent damage if a barely verbal child had gotten the bleach in or near their eyes.
Sounds like someone shouldn't be using bleach in the first place. Or using only diluted bleach.
I am not a scientist or anything, but I'm pretty sure I have read more than once that certain types of Hydrogen Peroxide are safer than Bleach yet more effective as far as disinfecting goes. The problem with most "non-toxic" cleaners is that they are usually toxic in normal concentrations, there's a lot of hype out there.
The use of straight bleach sounds excessive and ridiculous. And obviously, dangerous since they are careless with this chemical. If I were you, I would investigate alternatives and request substitutions in terms of products, chemicals, and techniques for cleaning. I would get the Owner on board.
Everyone is lucky no child got bleach in their eyes or mouth. You're right to act. Put your requests in writing.
Also, save the pants & take pictures of any chemical burns. That must have been a pretty big puddle of bleach.
I'm sure it was an accident. But still. That must have been a pretty big puddle of bleach.
posted by jbenben at 9:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
Sounds like someone shouldn't be using bleach in the first place. Or using only diluted bleach.
I am not a scientist or anything, but I'm pretty sure I have read more than once that certain types of Hydrogen Peroxide are safer than Bleach yet more effective as far as disinfecting goes. The problem with most "non-toxic" cleaners is that they are usually toxic in normal concentrations, there's a lot of hype out there.
The use of straight bleach sounds excessive and ridiculous. And obviously, dangerous since they are careless with this chemical. If I were you, I would investigate alternatives and request substitutions in terms of products, chemicals, and techniques for cleaning. I would get the Owner on board.
Everyone is lucky no child got bleach in their eyes or mouth. You're right to act. Put your requests in writing.
Also, save the pants & take pictures of any chemical burns. That must have been a pretty big puddle of bleach.
I'm sure it was an accident. But still. That must have been a pretty big puddle of bleach.
posted by jbenben at 9:21 PM on March 18, 2016 [12 favorites]
I would consider trying to nudge the school toward requiring "natural" cleaning products
Chlorine is an element, it doesn't get much more natural. In most states, infectious disease protocols require using actual disinfection agents in state-registered daycare facilities. Thieves Oil and vinegar doesn't stop Hand Foot and Mouth disease, or norovirus.
I would be strongly inclined to take it up with the cleaning company's insurance and leave it at that.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:25 PM on March 18, 2016 [72 favorites]
Chlorine is an element, it doesn't get much more natural. In most states, infectious disease protocols require using actual disinfection agents in state-registered daycare facilities. Thieves Oil and vinegar doesn't stop Hand Foot and Mouth disease, or norovirus.
I would be strongly inclined to take it up with the cleaning company's insurance and leave it at that.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:25 PM on March 18, 2016 [72 favorites]
You have one three year old, those daycare workers are probably each responsible for five or seven of them all day. They probably should have taken his bleachy pants off of him and put him in a spare pair but the staff in the room may not know that bleach can cause blisters. Perhaps your son didn't feel the blister forming. Did he speak up? If he told the workers that he felt pain or felt really itchy and they ignored him, that would be cause for concern but, if he didn't, try to keep in mind that they have to guide many tiny children through the day without serious injury and without losing any and without excessive snot running down their face and with lots of enriching activity. It's not an easy job, it pays very little, and a tiny blister like that is a pretty minor incident in the life of a child.
posted by Foam Pants at 9:28 PM on March 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Foam Pants at 9:28 PM on March 18, 2016 [20 favorites]
It sounds like the daycare is following up. It also sounds like in general, you trust these people, but this was a big mistake from which something must be learned.
I would be satisfied if the owner were able to communicate to me:
* what happened, according to the cleaning company
* what the daycare owner requested of the cleaning company to ensure it does not happen
* what was communicated to staff regarding the issue and how to react if a similar situation were to arise again
* sincere apologies
posted by samthemander at 9:34 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would be satisfied if the owner were able to communicate to me:
* what happened, according to the cleaning company
* what the daycare owner requested of the cleaning company to ensure it does not happen
* what was communicated to staff regarding the issue and how to react if a similar situation were to arise again
* sincere apologies
posted by samthemander at 9:34 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sounds like the facility is taking it seriously enough and a lawsuit isn't needed to change their behavior, but for real, I would be looking for new child care. We've had experience with four child care settings now over 2 kids ranging from rigidly structured highly sterile to hippie dippie outdoor only preschool and cannot even imagine the lack of oversight required to let this happen. Accidents happen. Failure to recognize an injury and inform you about it isn't the cleaning company's fault.
We get a written report of every scratch, pushing match, or bad word said to my kids. That's the norm. Your kid sat in bleach, this was noticed and reported, but his injury was still missed. Go ahead and sue if that makes you happy, but I'd be more concerned about whether they have the staff to monitor whether someone's running around with sharpened pencils or peeing their pants or eating plants in the play yard.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:36 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
We get a written report of every scratch, pushing match, or bad word said to my kids. That's the norm. Your kid sat in bleach, this was noticed and reported, but his injury was still missed. Go ahead and sue if that makes you happy, but I'd be more concerned about whether they have the staff to monitor whether someone's running around with sharpened pencils or peeing their pants or eating plants in the play yard.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:36 PM on March 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wait, what's the timeline here? In the morning, he got in contact with bleach, it damaged his pants badly enough they had to be changed with a hole in them, and then at the end of the day when you picked him up, he had a raised blister from the bleach contact? During the intervening time, they didn't put any salve or monitor the chemical burn beyond just washing the affected area with water?
I'd be totally fine with the daycare using bleach safely to clean - they need to follow through with the cleaning company for leaving a bleach puddle which is dangerous and the cleaning company should cover your medical costs.
But I think it's be fine to ask that they add a refresher on first aid for staff for kids who are exposed accidentally to chemicals, that he should have had the affected area checked and treated. Bleach burns on a little kid can be serious, they were lucky this time and you - and the other parents - want to continue at a great place that learns from a near miss how to prevent worse.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:39 PM on March 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'd be totally fine with the daycare using bleach safely to clean - they need to follow through with the cleaning company for leaving a bleach puddle which is dangerous and the cleaning company should cover your medical costs.
But I think it's be fine to ask that they add a refresher on first aid for staff for kids who are exposed accidentally to chemicals, that he should have had the affected area checked and treated. Bleach burns on a little kid can be serious, they were lucky this time and you - and the other parents - want to continue at a great place that learns from a near miss how to prevent worse.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:39 PM on March 18, 2016 [13 favorites]
Imma step back in and alert folks who don't know that for sanitizing restaurant kitchens, health dept's usually recommend a concentration of ONE OR TWO TABLE SPOONS OF BLEACH PER GALLON. Also, it has to be made daily because it loses potency.
So, no. The vendor very likely is not using this chemical correctly.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 PM on March 18, 2016 [24 favorites]
So, no. The vendor very likely is not using this chemical correctly.
posted by jbenben at 9:41 PM on March 18, 2016 [24 favorites]
It sounds like, in general, the day care staff acted appropriately (by removing his pants and washing him off, and by notifying you promptly). However, it does seem that the staff was not adequately trained to know that his skin needed to be rinsed under cool flowing water for a significant period of time (at least 15 minutes). This information is available on the MSDS (example) for bleach, which should be present somewhere in the facility if bleach is used/stored there. Someone should have known to look for this information and follow the instructions. They also could have called poison control for the same information. It's entirely possible that the bleach was not adequately cleaned off your child's skin, resulting in the burn.
It doesn't seem as though the damages (pants + injury) warrant a lawsuit, but you could make a complaint to the relevant licensing agency. You can also search to see if there have been other issues in the past.
posted by charmcityblues at 9:41 PM on March 18, 2016 [17 favorites]
It doesn't seem as though the damages (pants + injury) warrant a lawsuit, but you could make a complaint to the relevant licensing agency. You can also search to see if there have been other issues in the past.
posted by charmcityblues at 9:41 PM on March 18, 2016 [17 favorites]
It definitely sounds like a lot of blame should go to cleaning crew. I get why they would want to use bleach (lots of small children crawling around and doing who knows what on the floors), but it is appalling that they would leave a puddle of bleach on the floor. I would definitely follow up with the them. You may want to ask about what type of bleach they were using (concentration and even the chemical makeup may vary).
To be on the safe side, I would try to get an appointment with the pediatrician so that they can check it out and give you instructions on looking after the wound. Any time you have blisters, especially with a small child, you really want to be on the look out for infections.
One thing that isn't entirely clear is exactly how the day care handled the exposure. I work in a chemistry lab, and we would respond to this kind of exposure by removing any affected clothing and washing the area with a lot of water for at least 15 minutes. I also would not want any one, especially a small child, to be spending the rest of the day in pants covered with bleach. Ideally, they should have made sure he washed his hands thoroughly too, in case any bleach residue got on his hands.
If you want to continue using the daycare, I would sit down and talk to them about their response in the immediate aftermath of the exposure. They definitely shouldn't have told you everything was fine with your kid without verifying that he was in fact completely uninjured. It seems like the staff needs clearer guidelines on how to handle this kind of exposure, or if the guidelines are in place, they need to be enforced better. I think you would be within your rights to request that they explain to you what the protocols are; if they don't have clear protocols for something like this, then that is also a cause for concern.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:46 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
To be on the safe side, I would try to get an appointment with the pediatrician so that they can check it out and give you instructions on looking after the wound. Any time you have blisters, especially with a small child, you really want to be on the look out for infections.
One thing that isn't entirely clear is exactly how the day care handled the exposure. I work in a chemistry lab, and we would respond to this kind of exposure by removing any affected clothing and washing the area with a lot of water for at least 15 minutes. I also would not want any one, especially a small child, to be spending the rest of the day in pants covered with bleach. Ideally, they should have made sure he washed his hands thoroughly too, in case any bleach residue got on his hands.
If you want to continue using the daycare, I would sit down and talk to them about their response in the immediate aftermath of the exposure. They definitely shouldn't have told you everything was fine with your kid without verifying that he was in fact completely uninjured. It seems like the staff needs clearer guidelines on how to handle this kind of exposure, or if the guidelines are in place, they need to be enforced better. I think you would be within your rights to request that they explain to you what the protocols are; if they don't have clear protocols for something like this, then that is also a cause for concern.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:46 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
You should also request that the owners reinforce the staff training for opening/morning procedures as well as their injury or accident training for all the staff members. In my experience in childcare/preschool classrooms part of my job as classroom staff is checking the room before opening the doors to the children. There are several places an accident like this could be avoided (Smell of bleach in the class, puddle of anything on the floor, finding a child in the bleach, checking on injuries throughout the day, informing parents etc) leaving it all to the cleaning crew is negligent. The teachers and staff who know the space have the best chance of stopping accidents like this from occurring in the classroom.
posted by Swisstine at 9:49 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Swisstine at 9:49 PM on March 18, 2016 [7 favorites]
Whoa. I once worked in a facility that made vaccines -- so the facility had to be sterile -- and we would mix bleach and water in a 1:10 ratio. It's crazy that there would be a puddle of PURE BLEACH on the floor for children to encounter.
posted by Ostara at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Ostara at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2016 [18 favorites]
I would be surprised if they told me my kid sat in a puddle of water on the daycare floor that had been there since the night before, much less undiluted bleach. How do you not notice a puddle of water on the floor when you come in in the morning?
And what other harsh cleansers is he being exposed to? I personally would want a child care that paid a lot of attention to creating a safe play environment, from plants (non-poisonous) to furniture (rounded edges, heavy stuff bolted to the wall) to the daily use of chemicals. I get that bleach is a very simple chemical, but what kind of protocol results in undiluted bleach not getting wiped up, and what else is getting only partially wiped up? If they could show me what had been supposed to happen, cleaning-wise, I might understand, but if they have sort of a shrug around "I don't know why they would do that, hopefully they don't do it again," that wouldn't be the level of facilities management I'd want to see.
posted by salvia at 11:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
And what other harsh cleansers is he being exposed to? I personally would want a child care that paid a lot of attention to creating a safe play environment, from plants (non-poisonous) to furniture (rounded edges, heavy stuff bolted to the wall) to the daily use of chemicals. I get that bleach is a very simple chemical, but what kind of protocol results in undiluted bleach not getting wiped up, and what else is getting only partially wiped up? If they could show me what had been supposed to happen, cleaning-wise, I might understand, but if they have sort of a shrug around "I don't know why they would do that, hopefully they don't do it again," that wouldn't be the level of facilities management I'd want to see.
posted by salvia at 11:17 PM on March 18, 2016 [5 favorites]
Bleach has a pretty strong smell, and I do wonder how it could be that no one noticed the puddle. I'd want the childcare to explain their procedures: what time the cleaning is scheduled, what steps the staff go through in the morning to make sure everything is indeed clean and safe, etc. (This goes beyond things like your scenario - plastic toys can break and have sharp edges, etc.) I'd also want to know what procedures they follow in cases of possible or existing injury and what kind of medical training the staff has (by which I mean first aid, cpr, what to do if a kid swallows paint, etc.)
posted by trig at 11:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by trig at 11:31 PM on March 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I was looking for daycare, I always checked for license and health violations on our local government website. I avoided one specifically because they had a violation for leaving bleach in an unlocked cabinet. What's the government daycare inspection situation where you live? You may be able to call and report it or ask for an inspection.
I think one thing you need to consider is whether you are going to pull your kid out of the school. If so, absolutely call for an inspection. If not, I think you are a bit more limited in your options of how to deal with the issue without blowback. (You can still call for an inspection, and probably should on behalf of the other kids there, but the daycare will absolutely know it was you and that might be uncomfortable.)
For what it's worth, my kids ended up in a co-op program, so the parents did a lot of the cleaning-- every day the *director of the school* mixed the bleach to the correct ratios and brought spray bottles to the classrooms after the kids left. Bleach + water was used for tables, chairs, toys, and most other surfaces, but not for the floor. (Simple Green + water for the floor.) I can't even imagine using straight bleach to clean without a face mask and gloves-- I bet what happened was that they were pouring bleach into a mop bucket and some splashed on the floor.
posted by instamatic at 1:54 AM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think one thing you need to consider is whether you are going to pull your kid out of the school. If so, absolutely call for an inspection. If not, I think you are a bit more limited in your options of how to deal with the issue without blowback. (You can still call for an inspection, and probably should on behalf of the other kids there, but the daycare will absolutely know it was you and that might be uncomfortable.)
For what it's worth, my kids ended up in a co-op program, so the parents did a lot of the cleaning-- every day the *director of the school* mixed the bleach to the correct ratios and brought spray bottles to the classrooms after the kids left. Bleach + water was used for tables, chairs, toys, and most other surfaces, but not for the floor. (Simple Green + water for the floor.) I can't even imagine using straight bleach to clean without a face mask and gloves-- I bet what happened was that they were pouring bleach into a mop bucket and some splashed on the floor.
posted by instamatic at 1:54 AM on March 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
So to make diluted bleach to clean floors you take a bottle of undiluted bleach and dump it into your mop bucket with a bunch of water. at this point in time if you spilled from the bottle onto the floor you'd have undiluted bleach on the floor and be close enough to your mop bucket for the scent to be all around you. While you're cleaning, everything smells like bleach. It will continue to until it is dry and then a while after that.
The proper way to avoid this is to have a better location to make up your mop bucket - ie not in a child accessible location, somewhere in the back with a sink and a hose attachment to fill things.
Yes the daycare staff should have checked the room for things like puddles, especially after smelling bleach, but they might have easily thought it was just diluted stuff that wasn't quite dry.
My experience with people and caustic chemicals is that they don't understand how much washing they need to dilute them enough to really get them off of skin or eyes. Classically you tell someone who has gotten something in their eye to wash it twice as long as they think is necessary and then wash it twice as long as that. (a total of four or more times as long as "necessary"). It would be great to train the staff to do this.
So basically both cleaning and care staff screwed up but I can understand how it happened and there are simple ways to help it not happen again.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:13 AM on March 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
The proper way to avoid this is to have a better location to make up your mop bucket - ie not in a child accessible location, somewhere in the back with a sink and a hose attachment to fill things.
Yes the daycare staff should have checked the room for things like puddles, especially after smelling bleach, but they might have easily thought it was just diluted stuff that wasn't quite dry.
My experience with people and caustic chemicals is that they don't understand how much washing they need to dilute them enough to really get them off of skin or eyes. Classically you tell someone who has gotten something in their eye to wash it twice as long as they think is necessary and then wash it twice as long as that. (a total of four or more times as long as "necessary"). It would be great to train the staff to do this.
So basically both cleaning and care staff screwed up but I can understand how it happened and there are simple ways to help it not happen again.
posted by sciencegeek at 2:13 AM on March 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Absolutely-- cleaning solutions should be mixed somewhere else, like a janitor's closet. Undiluted cleaning supplies (that require dilution for safe handling) should never be in the classroom.
And I kind of want to edit my previous comment-- everyone in this thread (including me) is acting as if this is an issue you should be directly addressing with the school staff. On reflection, I don't think it is. I think this is something that requires a city/county safety inspection. I can't remember how this is usually handled, and it probably varies from place to place, but I know where I live daycares get surprise drop-in inspections either once or twice a year. The government will also send out inspectors for a complaint, and I *think* but cannot remember for sure if they have a violation, they get extra follow up inspections to be sure they have addressed any issues sufficiently.
Imagine how you would feel if you didn't report this, and your child or another child was injured more severely in the future. I get that this was an external cleaning service, and I'm not saying this in any punitive way, but it is one of the most important duties of a daycare to follow safety regulations and provide a safe environment for the children in their care. That is what safety inspections are for: to help them ensure a safe environment. This is not a personal beef between you and the daycare. This isn't about suing for damages. This is about keeping the children at that daycare safe in the future.
posted by instamatic at 3:38 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I kind of want to edit my previous comment-- everyone in this thread (including me) is acting as if this is an issue you should be directly addressing with the school staff. On reflection, I don't think it is. I think this is something that requires a city/county safety inspection. I can't remember how this is usually handled, and it probably varies from place to place, but I know where I live daycares get surprise drop-in inspections either once or twice a year. The government will also send out inspectors for a complaint, and I *think* but cannot remember for sure if they have a violation, they get extra follow up inspections to be sure they have addressed any issues sufficiently.
Imagine how you would feel if you didn't report this, and your child or another child was injured more severely in the future. I get that this was an external cleaning service, and I'm not saying this in any punitive way, but it is one of the most important duties of a daycare to follow safety regulations and provide a safe environment for the children in their care. That is what safety inspections are for: to help them ensure a safe environment. This is not a personal beef between you and the daycare. This isn't about suing for damages. This is about keeping the children at that daycare safe in the future.
posted by instamatic at 3:38 AM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
While the larger issue is the cleaning crew and safety, in this specific situation I do not see anywhere in your post that they took the pants off of your son and cleaned him off. If they wiped? rinsed? the pants and then put them back on him that seems incredibly careless on the part of the staff. I can't tell from your post if they ever even looked at his leg. Hoping a 3 year old will articulate the need for proper after care strikes me as ridiculous! (yes, he would cry if he was in terrible pain; I've had a three year old. Still.)
I would absolutely want to look at the staff's training and make sure they really do have the proper ratio of staff for each class of 18 or so kids. It is an underpaid and exhausting job. All the more reason to make sure the daycare has carefully trained all of the staff. Maybe in the future there needs to be a protocol that one of the nurse-owners should look at an injured child?
OK--I just read over your post again. They seem very upset with the cleaning crew. Did any of them take responsibility at all for their inaction?? The cleaning crew was long gone and it's their job to keep your child safe. Would they, say, be blaming Tide for making such desirable laundry pods if your child ate one of those? Or would they say they should have been aware of what was going on?
posted by bluespark25 at 5:58 AM on March 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would absolutely want to look at the staff's training and make sure they really do have the proper ratio of staff for each class of 18 or so kids. It is an underpaid and exhausting job. All the more reason to make sure the daycare has carefully trained all of the staff. Maybe in the future there needs to be a protocol that one of the nurse-owners should look at an injured child?
OK--I just read over your post again. They seem very upset with the cleaning crew. Did any of them take responsibility at all for their inaction?? The cleaning crew was long gone and it's their job to keep your child safe. Would they, say, be blaming Tide for making such desirable laundry pods if your child ate one of those? Or would they say they should have been aware of what was going on?
posted by bluespark25 at 5:58 AM on March 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you want to preserve your relationship with the day care, one thing you could do is ask them to request an inspection and review of procedures from whatever agency oversees them. I'm seeing a failure in four separate and distinct areas that would benefit from this review:
1. Improper handling/use of dangerous/caustic chemicals by the cleaning crew
2. Insufficient check of space before opening/allowing children entry
3. Improper/insufficient handling of chemical burn situation once it was recognized
4. Improper/insufficient monitoring of chemical burn situation throughout the day after it was initially handled
All these are relatively small mistakes that are easy to make and understandable on one level (ie, I as a parent could easily have made all of them, because I'm kinda dumb). But in a daycare the size of the one you are describing, they all should be addressed by clear changes in procedure, process, and training. Just for example, staff should know how to deal with a chemical burn situation and how to monitor it afterwards. You should have received a report about the initial bleach exposure but also later when someone noticed blisters/burns were developing. Perhaps those better procedures and training should have been in place before, but definitely now that there has been an incident the changes in procedure and training must take place.
Personally that is what I would be watching to decide if I would continue sending my child to this daycare. If they see this incident--which was pretty minor but had potential to be far more serious--as a warning and make the needed changes in procedure and training, then good for them.
If they don't, then bail ASAP. And this isn't just about how they talk and deal with you--what substantial changes in procedure and training are they making to ensure this and similar incidents don't repeat in the future? I would take their willingness to ask for an inspection and review of procedures as evidence they are treating the situation seriously and are willing to make the needed changes.
posted by flug at 10:23 AM on March 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
1. Improper handling/use of dangerous/caustic chemicals by the cleaning crew
2. Insufficient check of space before opening/allowing children entry
3. Improper/insufficient handling of chemical burn situation once it was recognized
4. Improper/insufficient monitoring of chemical burn situation throughout the day after it was initially handled
All these are relatively small mistakes that are easy to make and understandable on one level (ie, I as a parent could easily have made all of them, because I'm kinda dumb). But in a daycare the size of the one you are describing, they all should be addressed by clear changes in procedure, process, and training. Just for example, staff should know how to deal with a chemical burn situation and how to monitor it afterwards. You should have received a report about the initial bleach exposure but also later when someone noticed blisters/burns were developing. Perhaps those better procedures and training should have been in place before, but definitely now that there has been an incident the changes in procedure and training must take place.
Personally that is what I would be watching to decide if I would continue sending my child to this daycare. If they see this incident--which was pretty minor but had potential to be far more serious--as a warning and make the needed changes in procedure and training, then good for them.
If they don't, then bail ASAP. And this isn't just about how they talk and deal with you--what substantial changes in procedure and training are they making to ensure this and similar incidents don't repeat in the future? I would take their willingness to ask for an inspection and review of procedures as evidence they are treating the situation seriously and are willing to make the needed changes.
posted by flug at 10:23 AM on March 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm going to disagree with some other posters here. Yes, some blame should go to the cleaning crew. But there was a pile of pure bleach on the floor and no one noticed? Your son received a chemical burn and no one noticed? No one knew the proper protocol? How does this happen?
I've worked in childcare for years. It is remarkably hectic and it is very easy to accidentally miss a situation. But I cannot fathom how this was missed. It's easy to miss biting, or hitting, or to even leave the playground occasionally and not notice until the last second that a kid is still on the swing. These mistakes are rare, but they happen, and with the correct level of oversight you notice quickly and correct them.
But a chemical burn?
There is a lot of information you need to gather in order to proceed. Each state has a law for a ratio of children/teachers that needs to be followed. How many children were in the room? How many teachers? Did they know the vendor is using pure bleach? Why did they allow this? Why did no one noticed the large puddle when they went into the room? Why didn't they clean it? If they're going to allow the vendor to use pure bleach when cleaning, did they receive training on how to handle a chemical burn? If not, and they likely didn't, why?
Something went very, very wrong here, and it's not on the cleaners. The owner never should have allowed the cleaning company to use pure bleach. It's unfathomable to me that a teacher didn't notice and clean up the puddle immediately.
How thoroughly did they clean him off, and when, if at all? How could they not realize that the bleach came into contact with his skin? What disciplinary action have they taken against the teachers in the room for being negligent at multiple points during the day?
I can see why, at first, you would question whether or not to pull your son out given their concern. But an entire chain of events had to go wrong here, not just because of the cleaning crew but because of the actions of both the teachers and director. This wasn't one mistake. It was an entire series of mistakes by a group of adults. They are lucky a child didn't lose his sight.
I've worked in some horrible centers. I've seen the way teachers can be negligent or unprofessional. I've seen their disregard for the children. And I've also seen how absolutely perfect these same people can be at saving face in front of the parents. I've seen them switch to deep concern and kindness. Actions speak louder than words here.
You may like the center and the people in it. But if that were my son, I would pull him out and report the daycare so they can be investigated immediately.
posted by Amy93 at 11:01 AM on March 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've worked in childcare for years. It is remarkably hectic and it is very easy to accidentally miss a situation. But I cannot fathom how this was missed. It's easy to miss biting, or hitting, or to even leave the playground occasionally and not notice until the last second that a kid is still on the swing. These mistakes are rare, but they happen, and with the correct level of oversight you notice quickly and correct them.
But a chemical burn?
There is a lot of information you need to gather in order to proceed. Each state has a law for a ratio of children/teachers that needs to be followed. How many children were in the room? How many teachers? Did they know the vendor is using pure bleach? Why did they allow this? Why did no one noticed the large puddle when they went into the room? Why didn't they clean it? If they're going to allow the vendor to use pure bleach when cleaning, did they receive training on how to handle a chemical burn? If not, and they likely didn't, why?
Something went very, very wrong here, and it's not on the cleaners. The owner never should have allowed the cleaning company to use pure bleach. It's unfathomable to me that a teacher didn't notice and clean up the puddle immediately.
How thoroughly did they clean him off, and when, if at all? How could they not realize that the bleach came into contact with his skin? What disciplinary action have they taken against the teachers in the room for being negligent at multiple points during the day?
I can see why, at first, you would question whether or not to pull your son out given their concern. But an entire chain of events had to go wrong here, not just because of the cleaning crew but because of the actions of both the teachers and director. This wasn't one mistake. It was an entire series of mistakes by a group of adults. They are lucky a child didn't lose his sight.
I've worked in some horrible centers. I've seen the way teachers can be negligent or unprofessional. I've seen their disregard for the children. And I've also seen how absolutely perfect these same people can be at saving face in front of the parents. I've seen them switch to deep concern and kindness. Actions speak louder than words here.
You may like the center and the people in it. But if that were my son, I would pull him out and report the daycare so they can be investigated immediately.
posted by Amy93 at 11:01 AM on March 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
I wouldn't do any legal stuff, but I would pull my kid out.
posted by colie at 12:01 PM on March 19, 2016
posted by colie at 12:01 PM on March 19, 2016
The daycare staff's response is encouraging in one way. It seems like they care. But it also seems like they did a very shallow assessment of how this happened, automatically passing the buck to the cleaning contractor and playing "we're mad too!".
The contractor was the proximate cause of the hazard, maybe. Maybe they should look at their procedures for mixing bleach. Maybe they should also look at the adequacy of their cleaning crew supervisors checking the work of the cleaners.
But! That's missing the part of how the daycare staff did not verify the classroom was a safe place for children before the day started. What is the procedure for that? Is there an inspection before business every day? Is there a checklist for that?
There's a supervision of children part that may not be an issue, they need to investigate to see. Assuming a puddle of bleach is on the floor, can a child get into it without the staff knowing it? For how long?
There's a response part. It seems like they did ok there, but it's a big enough deal that it deserves a bit of a lessons-learned debrief.
I don't think I'd pull my kid or sue necessarily, but I would insist on being a stakeholder in the analysis of what happened. What are they going to do differently going forward? I want a follow-up report. Blaming (even firing) the contractor without a deeper look would not be acceptable on its own, and I'd be pretty vocal about it. That's when I'd pull my kid, if they aren't sufficiently self-critical and improvement-oriented as an organization where safety is concerned.
posted by ctmf at 2:39 PM on March 19, 2016
The contractor was the proximate cause of the hazard, maybe. Maybe they should look at their procedures for mixing bleach. Maybe they should also look at the adequacy of their cleaning crew supervisors checking the work of the cleaners.
But! That's missing the part of how the daycare staff did not verify the classroom was a safe place for children before the day started. What is the procedure for that? Is there an inspection before business every day? Is there a checklist for that?
There's a supervision of children part that may not be an issue, they need to investigate to see. Assuming a puddle of bleach is on the floor, can a child get into it without the staff knowing it? For how long?
There's a response part. It seems like they did ok there, but it's a big enough deal that it deserves a bit of a lessons-learned debrief.
I don't think I'd pull my kid or sue necessarily, but I would insist on being a stakeholder in the analysis of what happened. What are they going to do differently going forward? I want a follow-up report. Blaming (even firing) the contractor without a deeper look would not be acceptable on its own, and I'd be pretty vocal about it. That's when I'd pull my kid, if they aren't sufficiently self-critical and improvement-oriented as an organization where safety is concerned.
posted by ctmf at 2:39 PM on March 19, 2016
"Somehow NO ONE noticed this blister during the 9 hours he was there."
They were probably too busy to notice that a) he was somewhere he more than likely should not have been in the first place and b) his skin was blistering.
It's also not unheard of for someone who is negligent to blame a third party who isn't there to defend themselves.
Everyone is very lucky that he didn't put his hand directly on it and then put his hand in his eyes or mouth.
Do I think they're genuinely upset about what happened - yes; do I think that means that you need to still pay them money and have them look after your child - no, I don't think so.
Ignore the bleach, the cleaning company, all that - they just don't seem to have enough time to sufficiently care for your child. Maybe somewhere else would.
posted by heyjude at 4:14 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
They were probably too busy to notice that a) he was somewhere he more than likely should not have been in the first place and b) his skin was blistering.
It's also not unheard of for someone who is negligent to blame a third party who isn't there to defend themselves.
Everyone is very lucky that he didn't put his hand directly on it and then put his hand in his eyes or mouth.
Do I think they're genuinely upset about what happened - yes; do I think that means that you need to still pay them money and have them look after your child - no, I don't think so.
Ignore the bleach, the cleaning company, all that - they just don't seem to have enough time to sufficiently care for your child. Maybe somewhere else would.
posted by heyjude at 4:14 PM on March 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
When I a kid with asthma, undiluted bleach in the smell room add me could have put me into an asthma attack.
There are some serious, and not so serious issues.
Understandably, chemical burn training is not high on the list of day care worker training as non of the workers would be near anything more toxic than grape juice when the children are about. Especially if they don't do their own cleaning. However, I would request in writing the corrective actions taken by the staff inresponse tothe concerns above.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:44 PM on March 19, 2016
There are some serious, and not so serious issues.
Understandably, chemical burn training is not high on the list of day care worker training as non of the workers would be near anything more toxic than grape juice when the children are about. Especially if they don't do their own cleaning. However, I would request in writing the corrective actions taken by the staff inresponse tothe concerns above.
posted by AlexiaSky at 9:44 PM on March 19, 2016
I'd be pretty concerned that you specifically asked if they cleaned him off and checked that he was okay and they assured you that they did and he was, and he had enough bleach on him to eat a hole in his pants and burn him. Pretty clearly they DIDN'T clean him off or check to see if he was okay. Even if they didn't know that bleach could eat holes in clothes and skin, they should have noticed that he REEKED of bleach and changed his goddamn pants. I think that's pretty negligent, and I tend to be pretty understanding of the stressful, challenging work that is childcare.
I'm not sure what you should do, but that's the sticking point for me. The cleaning company didn't leave him in bleachy pants all day. His teachers did. NOT OKAY.
posted by Aquifer at 11:25 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure what you should do, but that's the sticking point for me. The cleaning company didn't leave him in bleachy pants all day. His teachers did. NOT OKAY.
posted by Aquifer at 11:25 AM on March 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
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