Sued by Texas - yanml edition
February 28, 2016 10:33 AM Subscribe
My grandparents back in the old country had a strip of land on the outskirts of Dallas that no one in the family knew about. It's been accumulating taxes for 40 years. My grandmother and her descendants have been sued and lost. What now?
In 2015, my two cousins, my brother and I were surprised by a legal notice of an impending suit for back taxes, maintenance and other fees associated with a 50x150' strip of land owned by our grand-parents, long deceased.
My mom, my uncle (also deceased) are also on the suit. The amount is up to near $10k from various fees and assessments tacked on year by year including library taxes, maintenance fees, lawyer fees now and so forth.
At the direction of one cousin, who is lawyered up, the four of us filed a request for a judgement in rem, requesting the state take the property in lieu of the taxes and that we have no interest in the property.
Post-suit we have received notice that my grandmother lost the suit and now we owe $.
Not being a lawyer, I may be misinterpreting the flow of events and whether I am actually on the hook or not.
Our lawyered up cousin has not been very approachable or communicative about this. I plan to call her and get in touch ASAP. To date, I've received one email from her with instructions on how to file the in rem request.
So, given YANML, what options might I have at this point? It's hard to take effective action without understanding the big picture or what potential actions I might take.
I put my legal fate in the hands of my cousin without having a strong understanding of the possible outcomes up to this point.
I can lawyer up but don't have any clear methods for doing so effectively. I don't know how to ascertain the status of our request to the state, or how to fight the judgement effectively if we are on hook and the debt collectors/hounds of hell are being set on our tails even as I type.
Needless to say, I am inclined to fight a collection action against me as the entire action seems weak and unethical but, hey, it's Texas. Glad I left. This looks to me like a state exploiting the legal process to squeeze people for money. All this moralizing is immaterial until I get the big picture correct. YANML, so just needing any insights I can glean here. I'm able to pay this if that's what comes down but could use perspective on the whole process.
In 2015, my two cousins, my brother and I were surprised by a legal notice of an impending suit for back taxes, maintenance and other fees associated with a 50x150' strip of land owned by our grand-parents, long deceased.
My mom, my uncle (also deceased) are also on the suit. The amount is up to near $10k from various fees and assessments tacked on year by year including library taxes, maintenance fees, lawyer fees now and so forth.
At the direction of one cousin, who is lawyered up, the four of us filed a request for a judgement in rem, requesting the state take the property in lieu of the taxes and that we have no interest in the property.
Post-suit we have received notice that my grandmother lost the suit and now we owe $.
Not being a lawyer, I may be misinterpreting the flow of events and whether I am actually on the hook or not.
Our lawyered up cousin has not been very approachable or communicative about this. I plan to call her and get in touch ASAP. To date, I've received one email from her with instructions on how to file the in rem request.
So, given YANML, what options might I have at this point? It's hard to take effective action without understanding the big picture or what potential actions I might take.
I put my legal fate in the hands of my cousin without having a strong understanding of the possible outcomes up to this point.
I can lawyer up but don't have any clear methods for doing so effectively. I don't know how to ascertain the status of our request to the state, or how to fight the judgement effectively if we are on hook and the debt collectors/hounds of hell are being set on our tails even as I type.
Needless to say, I am inclined to fight a collection action against me as the entire action seems weak and unethical but, hey, it's Texas. Glad I left. This looks to me like a state exploiting the legal process to squeeze people for money. All this moralizing is immaterial until I get the big picture correct. YANML, so just needing any insights I can glean here. I'm able to pay this if that's what comes down but could use perspective on the whole process.
This whole listens very strange. Nonpayment of tax generally leads to foreclosure and forfeiture, I thought, even in Texas.
posted by IndigoJones at 10:50 AM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by IndigoJones at 10:50 AM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Who's trying to collect the taxes? Property taxes in Texas are assessed at the county level (by an appraisal district), and often by municipal and other districts (such as libraries, schools, etc.). Is it the county filing suit? Is it the state? That seems kind of strange.
Who is trying to collect "maintenance and other fees?" Would that be a HOA or something?
I would start by contacting the appraisal district for the county the land is in to see what is actually going on.
Here is some basic info. about property taxes in Texas in case it helps:
State Comptroller's FAQ
posted by pantarei70 at 11:03 AM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who is trying to collect "maintenance and other fees?" Would that be a HOA or something?
I would start by contacting the appraisal district for the county the land is in to see what is actually going on.
Here is some basic info. about property taxes in Texas in case it helps:
State Comptroller's FAQ
posted by pantarei70 at 11:03 AM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would say you should sit comfortably on the position that you did not inherit this land so you aren't on the hook for anything. And yes, start with the local district and begin by making phone calls. I kind of think something scammy might be going on but I don't know what. Other than the "lawyered up" cousin, is there someone else you can talk to in the group that is closer to the property and issues?
posted by amanda at 11:05 AM on February 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by amanda at 11:05 AM on February 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
This sounds incredibly scammy. What proof do you have that *any* of this is true? At the very least i’d request the property records and verify that the court case actually exists (and the supposed details are correct) independently from your cousin and their lawyer, using phone numbers and addresses from verified government websites, NOT from anything mailed to you or contact info provided by your cousin or their lawyer.
posted by D.C. at 12:20 PM on February 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by D.C. at 12:20 PM on February 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
Texas is, by far, the most conservative state in the US about protecting individual property rights. Last I heard, it takes 30 years for a squatter to have any claim to Texas land. The norm in most states is 15-20 (as little as 5 in California). In other words, someone can own property in Texas, ignore it for 29 years, and come back and assert ownership, removing people who have openly lived there for decades. (From what I gather, the quirks of Texas make it difficult or impossible to get secondary mortgages.)
IANAL, but even by Texas standards, 40 years should qualify as abandoned property. When you owe back taxes, the norm is for the county to seize the property and sell it at auction.
This sounds very fishy to me.
posted by Michele in California at 12:28 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
IANAL, but even by Texas standards, 40 years should qualify as abandoned property. When you owe back taxes, the norm is for the county to seize the property and sell it at auction.
This sounds very fishy to me.
posted by Michele in California at 12:28 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, and when talking to anybody don’t say anything that can be construed as acceptance of responsibility for any debt. Your attitude should be that this is *not* your land, *not* your debt, and that you are researching the factual information about this case. No talk about “I'm able to pay this if that's what comes down”, either.
(I am not a lawyer; you should probably consult one you trust.)
posted by D.C. at 12:30 PM on February 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
(I am not a lawyer; you should probably consult one you trust.)
posted by D.C. at 12:30 PM on February 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
In general, the cure for not paying property tax is the county takes the land. Is that what had happened here? Call the county assessor or the prosecutor in this case for clarification. If that is indeed what has happened, you and any other heirs can wash your hands of the situation.
posted by littlewater at 1:43 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by littlewater at 1:43 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
$10K strikes me as a very weird figure. It's much too little, presuming it's over 20 years of all property taxes for a bunch of different districts, homeowner's association dues, interest, penalties, and legal fees, as your question implies. That is unless the property is actually worth next to nothing because it's essentially unbuildable, given whatever minimum lot width, set back requirements, structure parameters etc. are contained in the applicable zone or PUD regulations.
posted by carmicha at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by carmicha at 2:18 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
What I'm trying to say here is that the $10K smells like a number that is pitched towards making you and your relatives pay it to make the problem go away, because it would be more expensive to fight it. Like many above, I think you're being scammed somehow.
posted by carmicha at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by carmicha at 2:21 PM on February 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Is it in Dallas county? Start with the online lookup at the Tax Assessors office.
Once you look up the address you can run a variety of reports. I think you want two reports Taxes Due Detail by Year and Jurisdiction and Account History Report .
Even if it's not in Dallas County proper, you might look it up there since Dallas acts as the collector for nearby communities.
posted by 26.2 at 2:37 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Once you look up the address you can run a variety of reports. I think you want two reports Taxes Due Detail by Year and Jurisdiction and Account History Report .
Even if it's not in Dallas County proper, you might look it up there since Dallas acts as the collector for nearby communities.
posted by 26.2 at 2:37 PM on February 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: This is from the FTC
According to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation's consumer protection agency, family members typically are not obligated to pay the debts of a deceased relative from their own assets.
Does a debt go away when the debtor dies?
No. The estate of the deceased person owes the debt. If there isn't enough money in the estate to cover the debt, it typically goes unpaid. But there are exceptions to this rule. You may be responsible for the debt if you:
co-signed the obligation;
live in a community property state, such as California;
are the deceased person's spouse and state law requires you to pay a particular type of debt, like some health care expenses; or
were legally responsible for resolving the estate and didn't comply with certain state probate laws.
If you have questions about whether you are legally obligated to pay a deceased person's debts from your own assets, talk to a lawyer.
Sounds scammy to me. Get a good lawyer and get away from this. Good luck!
posted by Beti at 2:58 PM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
According to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), the nation's consumer protection agency, family members typically are not obligated to pay the debts of a deceased relative from their own assets.
Does a debt go away when the debtor dies?
No. The estate of the deceased person owes the debt. If there isn't enough money in the estate to cover the debt, it typically goes unpaid. But there are exceptions to this rule. You may be responsible for the debt if you:
co-signed the obligation;
live in a community property state, such as California;
are the deceased person's spouse and state law requires you to pay a particular type of debt, like some health care expenses; or
were legally responsible for resolving the estate and didn't comply with certain state probate laws.
If you have questions about whether you are legally obligated to pay a deceased person's debts from your own assets, talk to a lawyer.
Sounds scammy to me. Get a good lawyer and get away from this. Good luck!
posted by Beti at 2:58 PM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
This would not necessarily be a matter of paying a deceased relative's debts, though. The property taxes would have been accumulating after the grandmother's death, payable by whomever inherited the property. Also, property taxes do usually "attach" to a property and must be satisfied before anyone can have clear title to it.
I really don't know enough about Texas law to say anything definitive, but I agree that the whole thing has a whiff of scam about it and that it would be a good idea for OP to be separately represented.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on February 28, 2016
I really don't know enough about Texas law to say anything definitive, but I agree that the whole thing has a whiff of scam about it and that it would be a good idea for OP to be separately represented.
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on February 28, 2016
Except for serious criminal offenses, such as murder, most legal problems in the U.S. have statutes of limitations (often, between one and seven years in length). In other words, there comes a point past which the responsible party is off the hook merely because so much time has passed. Forty years is a long damn time to hold a grudge, so to speak.
America did this intentionally from the start in part because so many people came over as indentured servants, fleeing persecution of some sort, etc. Debtors prison was a thing in the world at one time. America wanted to make sure it wasn't a thing here. Thus, we have substantial provisions for protecting individuals rights and trying to make sure their pasts don't haunt them forevermore. Texas is really aggressive about protecting the rights of individuals, especially when it comes to property.
Furthermore, as noted repeatedly here, it is customary to simply seize property to settle property taxes or a defaulted mortgage, etc. The property should have been sold at auction a very long time ago to settle property taxes.
This really sounds like the kind of thing designed to scare someone into forking over money without asking too many questions. AKA a scam.
posted by Michele in California at 3:46 PM on February 28, 2016
America did this intentionally from the start in part because so many people came over as indentured servants, fleeing persecution of some sort, etc. Debtors prison was a thing in the world at one time. America wanted to make sure it wasn't a thing here. Thus, we have substantial provisions for protecting individuals rights and trying to make sure their pasts don't haunt them forevermore. Texas is really aggressive about protecting the rights of individuals, especially when it comes to property.
Furthermore, as noted repeatedly here, it is customary to simply seize property to settle property taxes or a defaulted mortgage, etc. The property should have been sold at auction a very long time ago to settle property taxes.
This really sounds like the kind of thing designed to scare someone into forking over money without asking too many questions. AKA a scam.
posted by Michele in California at 3:46 PM on February 28, 2016
Yeah, this really sounds scammy. The typical remedy for back taxes is repossession of the land, not suing.
posted by zug at 3:55 PM on February 28, 2016
posted by zug at 3:55 PM on February 28, 2016
Response by poster: Okay, thanks for all the answers. For the 'fishy' and 'scammy' people, the suits are in the 160th Judicial District, Dallas County, Texas by and from Felicia Pitre, district clerk via a Dallas legal firm. It's absolutely legitimate insofar as a legal process in motion, or the scammers have gone up a quantum notch or two.
I also note that my grandparents estate's legal firm is cited in the documents, so that is a good place to start. There are several good suggestions in this thread that I can follow up on, so that's really useful to me.
If there's a scam, it's that the state of Texas has been mowing this property every six months for 40 years and now wants to charge someone $200+ a pop for this and I happen to have some related DNA and a paper trail.
I am not panicking, not freaking out, not taking any kind of action beyond getting some perspective on how this works. YANML, thanks. It helps a bunch to have some options.
posted by diode at 5:07 PM on February 28, 2016
I also note that my grandparents estate's legal firm is cited in the documents, so that is a good place to start. There are several good suggestions in this thread that I can follow up on, so that's really useful to me.
If there's a scam, it's that the state of Texas has been mowing this property every six months for 40 years and now wants to charge someone $200+ a pop for this and I happen to have some related DNA and a paper trail.
I am not panicking, not freaking out, not taking any kind of action beyond getting some perspective on how this works. YANML, thanks. It helps a bunch to have some options.
posted by diode at 5:07 PM on February 28, 2016
You need to retain a lawyer admitted to the Texas bar, whether that lawyer is local to you or in Texas. Don't "put your legal fate in your cousin's hands" - they retained a lawyer but that lawyer has no obligation to represent your interests unless they coincide with your cousin's. I have inherited from three people in three jurisdictions in two countries and the laws differed, but what they all had in common was that creditors had first dibs on the estate, before heirs, and that creditors could claw back property or equivalent value if the Court found that the estate had been erroneously distributed by the executor or administrator.
I really doubt this is a scam - this sounds like during probate, everyone missed that this property existed and now your cousin is trying to sort out how to manage the tax liability without just surrendering the asset.
posted by gingerest at 5:14 PM on February 28, 2016
I really doubt this is a scam - this sounds like during probate, everyone missed that this property existed and now your cousin is trying to sort out how to manage the tax liability without just surrendering the asset.
posted by gingerest at 5:14 PM on February 28, 2016
Response by poster: Also, I'm hoping for what internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 said, that the in rem action has yet to occur so there's no particular reason to overreact until that's established one way or another.
posted by diode at 5:14 PM on February 28, 2016
posted by diode at 5:14 PM on February 28, 2016
I really doubt this is a scam - this sounds like during probate, everyone missed that this property existed and now your cousin is trying to sort out how to manage the tax liability without just surrendering the asset.
Well, when I said "whiff of scam" I was really thinking of the cousin's behavior. Her interests may very well not coincide with the OP's (e.g., if OP's mom is the link to the grandmother and is still alive, it's possible that OP might not have inherited any interest in the land and hence couldn't have any liability), and she's not acting like someone who is trying to find a solution that benefits the whole group. Separate representation is definitely a good idea here. Land law is very local and can be exquisitely weird.
posted by praemunire at 6:32 PM on February 28, 2016
Well, when I said "whiff of scam" I was really thinking of the cousin's behavior. Her interests may very well not coincide with the OP's (e.g., if OP's mom is the link to the grandmother and is still alive, it's possible that OP might not have inherited any interest in the land and hence couldn't have any liability), and she's not acting like someone who is trying to find a solution that benefits the whole group. Separate representation is definitely a good idea here. Land law is very local and can be exquisitely weird.
posted by praemunire at 6:32 PM on February 28, 2016
internet fraud detective squad, station number 9 is aboslutely right, you need your own lawyer, ASAP.
I don't know how to ascertain the status of our request to the state, or how to fight the judgement effectively if we are on hook and the debt collectors/hounds of hell are being set on our tails even as I type.
This is what the lawyer is for.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:40 PM on February 28, 2016
I don't know how to ascertain the status of our request to the state, or how to fight the judgement effectively if we are on hook and the debt collectors/hounds of hell are being set on our tails even as I type.
This is what the lawyer is for.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:40 PM on February 28, 2016
Response by poster: Okay, final question for this thread....I hope. I have the estate lawyer's contact info on these legal docs. Contacting them is definitely a first step to getting more info, and possibly getting representation in Texas. However, they may be deceased, out of business, have no idea, no records or some variation of the above. If that happens, how could I effectively go about getting lawyered up with representation in Texas? Shopping for a lawyer is a bit of a blank spot in my experience.
Thanks again, this thread has been very useful advice.
posted by diode at 7:16 PM on February 28, 2016
Thanks again, this thread has been very useful advice.
posted by diode at 7:16 PM on February 28, 2016
My mom's lawyer and my grandmother's lawyer both retired from practice, and they passed their old caseloads onto other people so there was never a total vacuum. So that might work
When I've needed a lawyer, I've asked for recommendations from local friends (I mean, local to the legal case). I also asked (internet and IRL) friends who are lawyers, regardless of where they live or what their specialty is, who they'd recommend. It is easier to get (private) recommendations about lawyers than, like, about doctors or plumbers, because their records of success and failure are public, and because lawyers always know somebody who knows somebody and they'll ask around for you.
If you can't get any recommendations from anybody - in my experience, lawyers will consult with you for free to figure out if you can work together, and only start to charge you once they're doing things for you (research or generating legal documentation.) So look some Texas estate lawyers up on the internet and give them a jingle.
posted by gingerest at 7:46 PM on February 28, 2016
When I've needed a lawyer, I've asked for recommendations from local friends (I mean, local to the legal case). I also asked (internet and IRL) friends who are lawyers, regardless of where they live or what their specialty is, who they'd recommend. It is easier to get (private) recommendations about lawyers than, like, about doctors or plumbers, because their records of success and failure are public, and because lawyers always know somebody who knows somebody and they'll ask around for you.
If you can't get any recommendations from anybody - in my experience, lawyers will consult with you for free to figure out if you can work together, and only start to charge you once they're doing things for you (research or generating legal documentation.) So look some Texas estate lawyers up on the internet and give them a jingle.
posted by gingerest at 7:46 PM on February 28, 2016
how could I effectively go about getting lawyered up with representation in Texas? Shopping for a lawyer is a bit of a blank spot in my experience.
Get a lawyer [MeFi Wiki]
posted by Little Dawn at 8:19 PM on February 28, 2016
Get a lawyer [MeFi Wiki]
posted by Little Dawn at 8:19 PM on February 28, 2016
There is usually a local bar association (this is different from the state bar association, which is a regulatory group with the power to license, discipline, etc.; local bar associations are just trade guilds) in any big city. Dallas County has one and it has a lawyer referral service. I would cross reference their referrals with Martindale.com and choose lawyers of AV or BV ratings if possible.
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:03 PM on February 28, 2016
posted by fingersandtoes at 9:03 PM on February 28, 2016
My apologies if I am just being thick headed, but I spent 5 years processing insurance claims. Part of my job was reviewing the claims for "red flags" and deciding whether or not to refer to the fraud department. And what you describe makes no sense to me. I have also read a lot about real estate, and had a couple of law classes and at least one real estate class, so I am not entirely clueless.
How were the four of you notified of the suit? I have been sued three times and always settled out of court. A police officer served me papers and I believe I signed for them.
Official looking papers are easy to mock up on a computer these days. You apparently have not personally been to the court house in Texas and you never lawyered up. There is a thing called due process. If you are being sued, where is your representation in this event?
You have such a vague description of events here. What have you done to verify that you are actually being sued in another state? You have mentioned a single email from an "uncommunicative" cousin and some sort of notice that mom lost the suit.
When I got annual fraud training while working at a Fortune 500 company, they would tell their war stories and show slides with, for example, photos of the empty lot at the address on the very official looking hospital letterhead or whatever. Official looking papers from a place too physically distant to readily visit is a classic scam move.
I am just asking: How do you know for certain that this is a real law suit? What mechanism convinced you of that?
Because your description is incredibly vague. Maybe you just left out the pertinent details about being served court documents by a police officer or calling the court house and verifying the suit. But I can't understand why a county clerk would need a Dallas law firm to sue you. That sounds weird to me. Government entities typically have in house representation.
All I am saying is first determine with certainty that this is real. Maybe you have already, but your description certainly leaves room for doubt.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:44 AM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
How were the four of you notified of the suit? I have been sued three times and always settled out of court. A police officer served me papers and I believe I signed for them.
Official looking papers are easy to mock up on a computer these days. You apparently have not personally been to the court house in Texas and you never lawyered up. There is a thing called due process. If you are being sued, where is your representation in this event?
You have such a vague description of events here. What have you done to verify that you are actually being sued in another state? You have mentioned a single email from an "uncommunicative" cousin and some sort of notice that mom lost the suit.
When I got annual fraud training while working at a Fortune 500 company, they would tell their war stories and show slides with, for example, photos of the empty lot at the address on the very official looking hospital letterhead or whatever. Official looking papers from a place too physically distant to readily visit is a classic scam move.
I am just asking: How do you know for certain that this is a real law suit? What mechanism convinced you of that?
Because your description is incredibly vague. Maybe you just left out the pertinent details about being served court documents by a police officer or calling the court house and verifying the suit. But I can't understand why a county clerk would need a Dallas law firm to sue you. That sounds weird to me. Government entities typically have in house representation.
All I am saying is first determine with certainty that this is real. Maybe you have already, but your description certainly leaves room for doubt.
Best of luck.
posted by Michele in California at 10:44 AM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
The easiest and simplest way to get a lawyer is to caLloyd the county bar association for the county where the land is located. They'll give you a free assessment of your case and make a recommendation. After that you can hire a lawyer who should handle most of the work for you.
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 12:19 PM on February 29, 2016
posted by CosmicSeeker42 at 12:19 PM on February 29, 2016
Response by poster: Thanks to all who replied. Despite all rumors to the contrary, this was just business as usual. I spoke to a lawyer named on the legal docs, and I'm interpreting from them. It was the estate being sued for back taxes, not my cousins and myself. We are mentioned on the suit as the county wants to notify anyone and everyone who might have an interest in paying off the property and taking possession of it. Eventually the legal process will work itself out with the property being auctioned off and the taxes and other fees being paid off from that. There doesn't seem to be any need for me to get lawyered up at this time.
posted by diode at 8:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by diode at 8:31 PM on March 29, 2016 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by ReluctantViking at 10:48 AM on February 28, 2016 [3 favorites]