Breaking out of the negativity cycle
February 27, 2016 5:47 AM Subscribe
I'm having trouble bringing up a bunch of small (and one or two large) issues with my wife. Now I have a laundry list of complaints and my resentment keeps growing. Help me start the conversation and keep it going in a positive way.
There are some communication issues between me and my wife and I’m not sure how to resolve them. In a nutshell, she says that I can be judgemental and a perfectionist so she does not like to take the initiative because I will just “do things my way”. I feel like she takes certain things for granted and that I can’t trust her to assist with anything beyond the most basic housework.
We moved into our first house about six months ago. If anything needs to be done beyond “cook food / deal with dishes / take out trash / wipe down bathroom”, I am the one that handles it. She has vacuumed once since we moved in and has never mopped or dusted in the six years we have lived together.
I have taken on a handful of house projects with zero assistance. We agreed to repaint one of the upstairs rooms and she volunteered to take the lead. I said that I would be available to assist in any way she’d like. There has been no movement whatsoever. We also agreed to not move or set up anything in that room since we’d just have to move everything back out when we painted so now it’s just useless space.
Recently, she volunteered to pick up some light bulbs since we didn’t have any extras. She forgot to do this, apologized, and said that she would pick some up the next day but forgot again and never brought it up. I anticipated this so I ordered some when I realized we were out.
I have no faith that she will take on any responsibility around the house. I’d love to come home and find that she unpacked a box or looked into why a window is leaking or showed me a few paint samples but I know this will never happen.
I realize that all of those things are relatively small issues but the inability to bring them up is also preventing me from bringing up larger concerns.
I am starting to dread hanging out with our friends because her drinking has reached an embarrassing level. I try and “read the room” and keep my drinking in tune with what everyone else is doing. Recently, we were hanging out with a few friends and everyone except her had three rounds of shots plus a glass of wine. She started with a full glass of whiskey, took two shots for every one we did, and poured herself another full glass of whiskey after all that (which she inevitably spilled).
We have had a bunch of parties at our house and she has ended every one of them by either passing out on the couch, stumbling upstairs, or falling down so much that I need to lead her away.
I also feel like she takes certain things I do for granted. We work in the same building and I pay for lunch 90% of the time. I always pick up the tab if we go to the movies or a concert. She rarely shows any gratitude.
The worst was when she complained that we never go on any “real vacations”. This was during a trip to see some friends that live out of state. We make this trip a few times a year and her comment came after we spent overnight in a hotel, ate breakfast, and filled up my car - all paid for by me.
I have tried to bring up some of these issues in the past but she accuses me of being judgemental and a perfectionist.
We’re in a nasty cycle and I don’t know how we can break out of it. I want to bring all of this up with her but I don’t want to present a huge list of complaints because nothing good can come of that. Does anyone have any communication tips for how I can broach these topics right now and for how we can communicate in the future to avoid this cycle?
There are some communication issues between me and my wife and I’m not sure how to resolve them. In a nutshell, she says that I can be judgemental and a perfectionist so she does not like to take the initiative because I will just “do things my way”. I feel like she takes certain things for granted and that I can’t trust her to assist with anything beyond the most basic housework.
We moved into our first house about six months ago. If anything needs to be done beyond “cook food / deal with dishes / take out trash / wipe down bathroom”, I am the one that handles it. She has vacuumed once since we moved in and has never mopped or dusted in the six years we have lived together.
I have taken on a handful of house projects with zero assistance. We agreed to repaint one of the upstairs rooms and she volunteered to take the lead. I said that I would be available to assist in any way she’d like. There has been no movement whatsoever. We also agreed to not move or set up anything in that room since we’d just have to move everything back out when we painted so now it’s just useless space.
Recently, she volunteered to pick up some light bulbs since we didn’t have any extras. She forgot to do this, apologized, and said that she would pick some up the next day but forgot again and never brought it up. I anticipated this so I ordered some when I realized we were out.
I have no faith that she will take on any responsibility around the house. I’d love to come home and find that she unpacked a box or looked into why a window is leaking or showed me a few paint samples but I know this will never happen.
I realize that all of those things are relatively small issues but the inability to bring them up is also preventing me from bringing up larger concerns.
I am starting to dread hanging out with our friends because her drinking has reached an embarrassing level. I try and “read the room” and keep my drinking in tune with what everyone else is doing. Recently, we were hanging out with a few friends and everyone except her had three rounds of shots plus a glass of wine. She started with a full glass of whiskey, took two shots for every one we did, and poured herself another full glass of whiskey after all that (which she inevitably spilled).
We have had a bunch of parties at our house and she has ended every one of them by either passing out on the couch, stumbling upstairs, or falling down so much that I need to lead her away.
I also feel like she takes certain things I do for granted. We work in the same building and I pay for lunch 90% of the time. I always pick up the tab if we go to the movies or a concert. She rarely shows any gratitude.
The worst was when she complained that we never go on any “real vacations”. This was during a trip to see some friends that live out of state. We make this trip a few times a year and her comment came after we spent overnight in a hotel, ate breakfast, and filled up my car - all paid for by me.
I have tried to bring up some of these issues in the past but she accuses me of being judgemental and a perfectionist.
We’re in a nasty cycle and I don’t know how we can break out of it. I want to bring all of this up with her but I don’t want to present a huge list of complaints because nothing good can come of that. Does anyone have any communication tips for how I can broach these topics right now and for how we can communicate in the future to avoid this cycle?
So in my relationship of 20 years I am your wife (chore-wise not drinking-wise).
I got much better about doing all kinds of stuff once my wife abandoned her perfectionism (or at least kept it to herself). There is a very good chance she is not doing stuff because you will just tell her she is doing it wrong and redo it. That is not good for a relationship and can easily put someone in a do nothing funk.
Also noticing who pays once you are married seems pretty nitpicky to me when you are married.
When she says you have not gone on real vacations she is telling she wants a vacation with just you. Not one with the social work of maintaining social relationships with friends.
And again you are tracking who pays. Are you sure you are married in your own mind?
posted by srboisvert at 6:18 AM on February 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
I got much better about doing all kinds of stuff once my wife abandoned her perfectionism (or at least kept it to herself). There is a very good chance she is not doing stuff because you will just tell her she is doing it wrong and redo it. That is not good for a relationship and can easily put someone in a do nothing funk.
Also noticing who pays once you are married seems pretty nitpicky to me when you are married.
When she says you have not gone on real vacations she is telling she wants a vacation with just you. Not one with the social work of maintaining social relationships with friends.
And again you are tracking who pays. Are you sure you are married in your own mind?
posted by srboisvert at 6:18 AM on February 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
I think you would benefit from Al-Anon meetings. Many of her behaviors - not just the drinking - and your feelings about those behaviors are very very familiar to me, the wife of an addict.
posted by something something at 6:20 AM on February 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by something something at 6:20 AM on February 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
We obviously only see one side of these things when people ask, so we really have no idea how she sees these things. I totally agree that seeing a couples counsellor would be the best first step. In our family, we see a similar pattern. X doesn't realize how critical they sound, and others avoid helping because their work will inevitably be criticized.
posted by advicepig at 6:23 AM on February 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by advicepig at 6:23 AM on February 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Came here to echo what something something said. It's all because of the drinking. Address the drinking. Don't even bother with the other stuff, it's all a smokescreen for the drinking. Address the drinking.
posted by Melismata at 6:36 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Melismata at 6:36 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
My marriage had a similar dynamic, where I was the responsible one and my (now ex-) husband was unwilling/unable to take on adult responsibilities beyond the bare-bones basics.
We went to counseling for many years and now are divorcing. Although our marriage couldn't be saved, I learned a lot of things along the way about why he acted the way he did, so I'll offer them to you in case they seem to resonate with your situation.
I think what it really came down to at heart for him was low self-esteem and a deep sense of shame. He was unwilling to risk experiencing even the smallest amount of challenge/confrontation/complaint (i.e. about what he *did*) because he could only interpret it as criticism (i.e., about who he *was*). Note that this was rooted in his sense of self, and so not really subject to my influence. By that I mean, he responded as though my complaints were criticisms despite the fact that I was not insulting in their delivery and indeed made sure, even when we had serious conflict, to be explicitly grateful that there were so many things about him that I liked/loved/appreciated, and that I had complete faith in his intelligence, capabilities, etc.
Ultimately in our case this led to a bunch of bad interpersonal dynamics that really ever only got worse and worse (mutual resentment, his continued passiveness and lying, his passive-aggressive cruelty) because--well, he didn't want to deal so he wouldn't engage and he came to hate me because I wouldn't let it drop. It sounds like you are aware that those dynamics are creeping in and you want to change them, which is good. I would strongly suggest getting a really good couples therapist, and expecting that some individual counseling is going to be necessary as well.
You're getting some pushback on the concept of "perfectionism". Definitely think on that and see if it applies in your situation. I would say that functioning as a team necessarily involves some feedback in both directions, and it's probably not reasonably to level a charge of perfectionism if one partner refuses to be part of the team at all.
Good luck. I know just how frustrating it is to be in your situation. Editing to add: alcohol was not a factor in my marriage, but I think it's plausible that excessive alcohol use and that deep deep shame are related too.
posted by Sublimity at 6:39 AM on February 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
We went to counseling for many years and now are divorcing. Although our marriage couldn't be saved, I learned a lot of things along the way about why he acted the way he did, so I'll offer them to you in case they seem to resonate with your situation.
I think what it really came down to at heart for him was low self-esteem and a deep sense of shame. He was unwilling to risk experiencing even the smallest amount of challenge/confrontation/complaint (i.e. about what he *did*) because he could only interpret it as criticism (i.e., about who he *was*). Note that this was rooted in his sense of self, and so not really subject to my influence. By that I mean, he responded as though my complaints were criticisms despite the fact that I was not insulting in their delivery and indeed made sure, even when we had serious conflict, to be explicitly grateful that there were so many things about him that I liked/loved/appreciated, and that I had complete faith in his intelligence, capabilities, etc.
Ultimately in our case this led to a bunch of bad interpersonal dynamics that really ever only got worse and worse (mutual resentment, his continued passiveness and lying, his passive-aggressive cruelty) because--well, he didn't want to deal so he wouldn't engage and he came to hate me because I wouldn't let it drop. It sounds like you are aware that those dynamics are creeping in and you want to change them, which is good. I would strongly suggest getting a really good couples therapist, and expecting that some individual counseling is going to be necessary as well.
You're getting some pushback on the concept of "perfectionism". Definitely think on that and see if it applies in your situation. I would say that functioning as a team necessarily involves some feedback in both directions, and it's probably not reasonably to level a charge of perfectionism if one partner refuses to be part of the team at all.
Good luck. I know just how frustrating it is to be in your situation. Editing to add: alcohol was not a factor in my marriage, but I think it's plausible that excessive alcohol use and that deep deep shame are related too.
posted by Sublimity at 6:39 AM on February 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Came in to say the drinking, too. However...
She sounds unhappy. The drinking comes from somewhere. You say there are communication problems? I'm guessing it's easier for her to drink and drown out the problems, rather than address the problems?
I also hear that she feels you criticize her and that you do everything your own way anyway. So... She feels entirely bulldozed over? And that's you reporting her position. I bet back when you guys were still communicating, she had lots more to say on the subject.
Then we get to your complaints about "paying" for everything. You own a house together, but you are still keeping track of who buys lightbulbs as though you are roommates + who pays for meals or other expenses as though you are still dating.
Drinking for her is just easier at this point because true or not, she doesn't feel like she has any authority or power in the dynamic between the two of you.
PS - I bet she was pretty excited about painting that room, and then she heard every complaint you ever made running through her head about how she doesn't do this or that "right" and she just entirely lost steam. I wonder if she's even aware of this. It's pretty clear from out here.
I feel bad for you both. It looks objectively like she had serious needs that were not met, and now it's all just snowballed. Dealing with her drinking is just one more shitty mistake she's making. I think before you even bring up the drinking, maybe you work on being less controlling and uptight, more flexible. See a therapist and work on yourself. Maybe if you change yourself, the other stuff gets fixed or at least you'll have some footing in true compassion from which to reach out and start dealing with your relationship dynamics.
My advice is for you to work on yourself first. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 7:44 AM on February 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
She sounds unhappy. The drinking comes from somewhere. You say there are communication problems? I'm guessing it's easier for her to drink and drown out the problems, rather than address the problems?
I also hear that she feels you criticize her and that you do everything your own way anyway. So... She feels entirely bulldozed over? And that's you reporting her position. I bet back when you guys were still communicating, she had lots more to say on the subject.
Then we get to your complaints about "paying" for everything. You own a house together, but you are still keeping track of who buys lightbulbs as though you are roommates + who pays for meals or other expenses as though you are still dating.
Drinking for her is just easier at this point because true or not, she doesn't feel like she has any authority or power in the dynamic between the two of you.
PS - I bet she was pretty excited about painting that room, and then she heard every complaint you ever made running through her head about how she doesn't do this or that "right" and she just entirely lost steam. I wonder if she's even aware of this. It's pretty clear from out here.
I feel bad for you both. It looks objectively like she had serious needs that were not met, and now it's all just snowballed. Dealing with her drinking is just one more shitty mistake she's making. I think before you even bring up the drinking, maybe you work on being less controlling and uptight, more flexible. See a therapist and work on yourself. Maybe if you change yourself, the other stuff gets fixed or at least you'll have some footing in true compassion from which to reach out and start dealing with your relationship dynamics.
My advice is for you to work on yourself first. Good luck.
posted by jbenben at 7:44 AM on February 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I want to acknowledge you might have separate finances at your wife's insistence. This doesn't take away from my point that she's got some serious unmet needs deep down and that you both have work to do.
It's a journey. Just take the next steps. I do think before you point fingers you spend a few months working on yourself. In marriage, I think that's just best practice.
posted by jbenben at 7:54 AM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
It's a journey. Just take the next steps. I do think before you point fingers you spend a few months working on yourself. In marriage, I think that's just best practice.
posted by jbenben at 7:54 AM on February 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Drinking for her is just easier at this point because true or not, she doesn't feel like she has any authority or power in the dynamic between the two of you.
This can be a really sticky thing to disentangle. If she doesn't follow through on commitments (like buying light bulbs or painting the room), and at some point her husband decides that Shit Just Needs To Get Done and does it rather than engaging in the power struggle... is he really bulldozing her and getting his own way? Or is she abdicating her own agency and power and then blaming him for it?
posted by Sublimity at 8:13 AM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
This can be a really sticky thing to disentangle. If she doesn't follow through on commitments (like buying light bulbs or painting the room), and at some point her husband decides that Shit Just Needs To Get Done and does it rather than engaging in the power struggle... is he really bulldozing her and getting his own way? Or is she abdicating her own agency and power and then blaming him for it?
posted by Sublimity at 8:13 AM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
The idea that her drinking is caused by you or the problems in your relationship is not going to do either of you any favors. By all means be compassionate, work on yourself, seek counseling, etc, but know that alcohol has its own power here that is impossible to predict or control.
posted by otio at 8:16 AM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by otio at 8:16 AM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
I feel like I may have been unnecessarily harsh earlier so I am going to clarify what I see as some major issues I have experienced in this kind of relationship dynamic.
First, as a man married to a woman I think it is important to acknowledge and deal with the well established socially instilled tendency for men not to notice the work that women do in a relationship. I'm not saying that is the case here. I am saying it is the case everywhere. Taking that into I discount any feelings I have that I am doing "more than my fair share". Unless I feel like I am doing absolutely everything I don't kid myself that I am doing more than half. This is my advice to all men who are living with women.
Combine that with the attribution bias - where you aware of everything that you do and why you did it the way you did but you don't have this access to even someone as close as your marital partner can lead to a sense of grievance. You can forgive yourself for slight grease left on a baking pans because you were busy, tired and in a hurry and it is good enough. Your partner does it and it is because they are thoughtless, inconsiderate or don't know how to properly wash dishes. Your failures are situational and other people's are dispositional. It is incredibly easy to forgive yourself and harder to forgive others. This is a fundamental mistake that everyone makes all the time and takes real serious sustained effort to overcome (there is even a religion founded on this as central principle).
Finances: Money problems are the number one cause of relationship failure. More than infidelity. So you MUST fix this. If you are going to maintain separate accounts you should still have a joint account for things that are common. Figure out who puts what into the joint account and then use it for the things that are common expenses like lunches, vacations and rent. That way your this source of friction is removed or at least formally managed in a way that doesn't require a grief inducing mental balance sheet.
Grievance lists: This is an awful way to live. I've been there. I've done it. It does no good for anyone. To me this is generally a sign of stress. It's like when you are hangry. The grievances are almost always not the real problem. You have new home stress. A move is a huge stressor. I recall that it is considered top 5 right up there with a death in the family or a new job.
My advice is that the two of you together should do the moving house stuff. All of it. Together. Don't divide tasks. Until it is done. And be reasonably quick about. Get the stress of an incomplete move off your plate so you can deal with all the rest.
posted by srboisvert at 8:34 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
First, as a man married to a woman I think it is important to acknowledge and deal with the well established socially instilled tendency for men not to notice the work that women do in a relationship. I'm not saying that is the case here. I am saying it is the case everywhere. Taking that into I discount any feelings I have that I am doing "more than my fair share". Unless I feel like I am doing absolutely everything I don't kid myself that I am doing more than half. This is my advice to all men who are living with women.
Combine that with the attribution bias - where you aware of everything that you do and why you did it the way you did but you don't have this access to even someone as close as your marital partner can lead to a sense of grievance. You can forgive yourself for slight grease left on a baking pans because you were busy, tired and in a hurry and it is good enough. Your partner does it and it is because they are thoughtless, inconsiderate or don't know how to properly wash dishes. Your failures are situational and other people's are dispositional. It is incredibly easy to forgive yourself and harder to forgive others. This is a fundamental mistake that everyone makes all the time and takes real serious sustained effort to overcome (there is even a religion founded on this as central principle).
Finances: Money problems are the number one cause of relationship failure. More than infidelity. So you MUST fix this. If you are going to maintain separate accounts you should still have a joint account for things that are common. Figure out who puts what into the joint account and then use it for the things that are common expenses like lunches, vacations and rent. That way your this source of friction is removed or at least formally managed in a way that doesn't require a grief inducing mental balance sheet.
Grievance lists: This is an awful way to live. I've been there. I've done it. It does no good for anyone. To me this is generally a sign of stress. It's like when you are hangry. The grievances are almost always not the real problem. You have new home stress. A move is a huge stressor. I recall that it is considered top 5 right up there with a death in the family or a new job.
My advice is that the two of you together should do the moving house stuff. All of it. Together. Don't divide tasks. Until it is done. And be reasonably quick about. Get the stress of an incomplete move off your plate so you can deal with all the rest.
posted by srboisvert at 8:34 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
" is he really bulldozing her and getting his own way? Or is she abdicating her own agency and power and then blaming him for it?"
I'd like to answer this and say it doesn't really matter!
Buying a house is a BIG deal for some people, and definitely for the relationship. Even good changes can be stressful. I have all sorts of questions about what the dynamic was before the house, how the financial thing plays into it - did the wife even want to buy the house?? Can they afford the house? Are they somehow locked into this relationship via the house in a way they were not locked into each other before?
It seems like stuff wasn't great before, and then the house upped the stakes.
Either way, if they can't find a way to be kind and compassionate towards each other without score keeping (who did X chore or paid for Y luxury or necessary expense) then nothing positive will change the course of this 'ship. They're in this together. He's already heard her say he's controlling. Certainly there's something controlling going on in a marriage where you own a house together but finances are separate...
OP says he does not know how to broach the subject of theses difficulties with his wife. My suggestion is that he work on addressing things she's already indicated were causing her pain in the dynamic and fix those before approaching her about anything else. Just spend three months being mindful and working on his own reactions, triggers, behaviors.
My prediction is that if the OP spends some time on himself, the pressures within the marriage will improve slightly + he'll have some positive momentum going when he decides to approach his wife about their troubles.
The OP can put the marriage on slightly better footing before addressing anything, and he should do that. Maybe in three months she'll have worked through some things on her own. Maybe she'll feel more comfortable because of a shift and him and she'll approach him and open the conversation.
Things are not too out of hand. Yet. Right now, for whatever reason, the wife is checked out. She might check back in on her own if the OP works on the one thing under his own control, himself. This, or if there IS a tough slog ahead, he'll have built up some resources (compassion, strength, self-knowledge, equanimity) to deal with what's ahead.
We all know playing the blame game doesn't help. The OP loses nothing spending three months on "Project Self."
The answer to the original question is: If you feel like you can't (yet) approach the other person, start with yourself.
posted by jbenben at 8:41 AM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd like to answer this and say it doesn't really matter!
Buying a house is a BIG deal for some people, and definitely for the relationship. Even good changes can be stressful. I have all sorts of questions about what the dynamic was before the house, how the financial thing plays into it - did the wife even want to buy the house?? Can they afford the house? Are they somehow locked into this relationship via the house in a way they were not locked into each other before?
It seems like stuff wasn't great before, and then the house upped the stakes.
Either way, if they can't find a way to be kind and compassionate towards each other without score keeping (who did X chore or paid for Y luxury or necessary expense) then nothing positive will change the course of this 'ship. They're in this together. He's already heard her say he's controlling. Certainly there's something controlling going on in a marriage where you own a house together but finances are separate...
OP says he does not know how to broach the subject of theses difficulties with his wife. My suggestion is that he work on addressing things she's already indicated were causing her pain in the dynamic and fix those before approaching her about anything else. Just spend three months being mindful and working on his own reactions, triggers, behaviors.
My prediction is that if the OP spends some time on himself, the pressures within the marriage will improve slightly + he'll have some positive momentum going when he decides to approach his wife about their troubles.
The OP can put the marriage on slightly better footing before addressing anything, and he should do that. Maybe in three months she'll have worked through some things on her own. Maybe she'll feel more comfortable because of a shift and him and she'll approach him and open the conversation.
Things are not too out of hand. Yet. Right now, for whatever reason, the wife is checked out. She might check back in on her own if the OP works on the one thing under his own control, himself. This, or if there IS a tough slog ahead, he'll have built up some resources (compassion, strength, self-knowledge, equanimity) to deal with what's ahead.
We all know playing the blame game doesn't help. The OP loses nothing spending three months on "Project Self."
The answer to the original question is: If you feel like you can't (yet) approach the other person, start with yourself.
posted by jbenben at 8:41 AM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Your wife does not want to be the person you require her to be. Sometimes people do this deliberately, sometimes it's semi-subconscious – the forgetting, the procrastination, all the things that are annoying you. In a way it doesn't matter. Either way, she's refusing to do what you want, be what you want.
I bet she isn't even an alcoholic. The drink is likely a situational escape, and maybe even another mute protest, if you've been concerned about her embarrassing you in front of friends. It's a way of not being what you want.
If you want to stay with her you need to figure out a way of living together that changes this dynamic. You have to love her to make that kind of effort, and I don't feel from this post that you feel much affection for her any more. You want her to make the effort for you and for the marriage, and for the house, but not so much because you want her to be happier. But it's not a job. There has to be emotional warmth and safety in that house, and I'm not feeling any from your writing.
Good luck.
posted by zadcat at 8:52 AM on February 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
I bet she isn't even an alcoholic. The drink is likely a situational escape, and maybe even another mute protest, if you've been concerned about her embarrassing you in front of friends. It's a way of not being what you want.
If you want to stay with her you need to figure out a way of living together that changes this dynamic. You have to love her to make that kind of effort, and I don't feel from this post that you feel much affection for her any more. You want her to make the effort for you and for the marriage, and for the house, but not so much because you want her to be happier. But it's not a job. There has to be emotional warmth and safety in that house, and I'm not feeling any from your writing.
Good luck.
posted by zadcat at 8:52 AM on February 27, 2016 [13 favorites]
Nthing address the drinking, or at least take a hard look at it (is she just binge drinking socially? or does she also over indulge when it's just the two of you? ). I don't know that the drinking is the cause of all of the problems, but like some others have said, whatever is causing the drinking may also cause or relate to some of the other problems (depression for example).
To help you to try to address the other issues (which may or may not be moot, depending on the extent of the drinking) it might also help you to try to relate to her feelings of being judged.
For example, you were upset with how she complained about not having a real vacation. If you give her the benefit of the doubt, she was stating that she'd like you guys do something different, it wasn't an attack on you, just her expressing a desire (and really, just because you paid for it, if it's a take it or leave it thing for her that she does because she thinks it's what you want to do, why should she fall all over herself with gratitude?). But it didn't feel great, right? Especially after you've put all this effort into the trip that you think she likes. Now you're upset, and she just thinks she made it known she wants to do something else for the next trip.
Now think about how upset you are, and apply that to how she feels when she does something and you correct it. If it happens often enough, she'll expect that you'll just poo-poo her effort, and that could realy wear on a person. If she's also not a great direct communicator, it leads her to shut down rather than engage in a conversation about how she feels. Or maybe she tried to talk about it, but not in a way you understood or paid attention to (I'm wondering if you both have similar hold it in and then get upset communication styles).
I don't mean to say that this is neccesarily all your fault, just to help you try to relate to your wife better. If you can start to feel more empathetic to her position, it could help you broach the topic from a less defensive place so you can deescalate. Ask her (and listen) what you do that makes her feel judged and try to figure out ways to not do that (I'm assuming you guys haven't actually done this). I'd itbhelps you focus, don't think of it as things you're doing wrong, but as things that don't work for your wife. Then figure out how to make it work for your wife.
For example, if she suggested some paint samples for the room, are you someone who thinks things through in their head, and then spits out the final computation: No, that's too dark. For some couples, that's fine, they want to be direct. But you're wife may want more of a conversation and hear something positive with the negative: I do like that color, but I'm worried it would be overwhelming in the small room. Should we do just an accent wall or maybe....You get the idea.
It may be hard, especially if she feels pent up, and she may be upset. But try to focus on what is being said and don't fall back into a defensive posture.
Also, I personally find it a bit odd that you're keeping track of who pays for what, but I'm assuming you guys have separate finances? To each their own. I think you'll want to address how you guys spend/recommend money more directly in the near future (possibly do a hybrid approach: joint account and individual, taking into account you may each have different income levels and fixed expenses). I think working on the communication issues first might help with this conversation, but YMMV.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:01 AM on February 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
To help you to try to address the other issues (which may or may not be moot, depending on the extent of the drinking) it might also help you to try to relate to her feelings of being judged.
For example, you were upset with how she complained about not having a real vacation. If you give her the benefit of the doubt, she was stating that she'd like you guys do something different, it wasn't an attack on you, just her expressing a desire (and really, just because you paid for it, if it's a take it or leave it thing for her that she does because she thinks it's what you want to do, why should she fall all over herself with gratitude?). But it didn't feel great, right? Especially after you've put all this effort into the trip that you think she likes. Now you're upset, and she just thinks she made it known she wants to do something else for the next trip.
Now think about how upset you are, and apply that to how she feels when she does something and you correct it. If it happens often enough, she'll expect that you'll just poo-poo her effort, and that could realy wear on a person. If she's also not a great direct communicator, it leads her to shut down rather than engage in a conversation about how she feels. Or maybe she tried to talk about it, but not in a way you understood or paid attention to (I'm wondering if you both have similar hold it in and then get upset communication styles).
I don't mean to say that this is neccesarily all your fault, just to help you try to relate to your wife better. If you can start to feel more empathetic to her position, it could help you broach the topic from a less defensive place so you can deescalate. Ask her (and listen) what you do that makes her feel judged and try to figure out ways to not do that (I'm assuming you guys haven't actually done this). I'd itbhelps you focus, don't think of it as things you're doing wrong, but as things that don't work for your wife. Then figure out how to make it work for your wife.
For example, if she suggested some paint samples for the room, are you someone who thinks things through in their head, and then spits out the final computation: No, that's too dark. For some couples, that's fine, they want to be direct. But you're wife may want more of a conversation and hear something positive with the negative: I do like that color, but I'm worried it would be overwhelming in the small room. Should we do just an accent wall or maybe....You get the idea.
It may be hard, especially if she feels pent up, and she may be upset. But try to focus on what is being said and don't fall back into a defensive posture.
Also, I personally find it a bit odd that you're keeping track of who pays for what, but I'm assuming you guys have separate finances? To each their own. I think you'll want to address how you guys spend/recommend money more directly in the near future (possibly do a hybrid approach: joint account and individual, taking into account you may each have different income levels and fixed expenses). I think working on the communication issues first might help with this conversation, but YMMV.
posted by ghost phoneme at 9:01 AM on February 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've generally found that when people don't do something, it's because it's not important to them, i.e., they don't care about it or it's not a priority. So in terms of your wife not doing chores and tending to household matters, I would guess she's got other things going on in her head that are more important to her. Although it's OK for her to care less about the house than you do, I think she's not doing the bare minimum that you should reasonably expect in terms of at least keeping things clean. The way I'd approach a conversation with her is to say in a non-confrontational way (perhaps in a puzzled way, or just in a matter-of-fact way) that it's clear to you that keeping the house clean is not a priority to her, and you are interested in learning what things are most important to her. I think a conversation like that could illuminate a lot of things in your relationship.
And I don't think it's at all weird that you have noticed you are paying for most stuff. It's a matter of fairness and it's a matter of things being recognized and acknowledged. You are right to feel uncomfortable with the current situation.
posted by Dansaman at 10:41 AM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I don't think it's at all weird that you have noticed you are paying for most stuff. It's a matter of fairness and it's a matter of things being recognized and acknowledged. You are right to feel uncomfortable with the current situation.
posted by Dansaman at 10:41 AM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Long story short, here are three things that could be prioritized.
I think the 'problem' with the drinking is that she may be an alcoholic. Drinking til passsing out is a huge flag, the more so if it is in social situations. Please think about this and do not rationalize it as "she drinks a little bit too much" as it does neither of you any favours in the long run. And if so it's a big step to acknowledging it but I think it is a very necessary step. Not sure how you start the AA (or other) conversation. Do you know anyone n AA?
Then there are all the other possible issues for her - could be relationship-communication-dynamics-etc., and require therapy. Or there could be psychiatric issues (depression/anxiety), perhaps meds are needed - here you'd start with the GP if you have one maybe?
You also have issues, at a minimum with boundary setting for both of you, I think. You need to work on that too. Therapy is a start here.
So three sets of problems, I'm not giving any advice on how to get initiate resolutions, but these may be things you need to keep as a checklist right now, read up on them, see if they make sense, and then start to address them seriously. Good luck.
posted by carter at 11:02 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the 'problem' with the drinking is that she may be an alcoholic. Drinking til passsing out is a huge flag, the more so if it is in social situations. Please think about this and do not rationalize it as "she drinks a little bit too much" as it does neither of you any favours in the long run. And if so it's a big step to acknowledging it but I think it is a very necessary step. Not sure how you start the AA (or other) conversation. Do you know anyone n AA?
Then there are all the other possible issues for her - could be relationship-communication-dynamics-etc., and require therapy. Or there could be psychiatric issues (depression/anxiety), perhaps meds are needed - here you'd start with the GP if you have one maybe?
You also have issues, at a minimum with boundary setting for both of you, I think. You need to work on that too. Therapy is a start here.
So three sets of problems, I'm not giving any advice on how to get initiate resolutions, but these may be things you need to keep as a checklist right now, read up on them, see if they make sense, and then start to address them seriously. Good luck.
posted by carter at 11:02 AM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
If anything needs to be done beyond “cook food / deal with dishes / take out trash / wipe down bathroom”, I am the one that handles it.
That...sounds like a fair split to me? I'm sure it's frustrating when she doesn't come through on stuff she's said she'll do, but are you maybe undervaluing her contributions because of other issues in the marriage? Cooking, dishes, trash, bathroom surfaces are fairly constant duties, and important-- you would be starving and living in filth without these. Paying most of the time also seems fair to me since men usually earn more than women and many couples view their money as one pot regardless.
Of course, every relationship is different and wanting a 50/50 split is valid if that's what you both agree to. These things should never be unspoken, though. What might seem fair to you, what might seem like it should go without saying to you, might be foreign to someone else. You have to work these details out explicitly.
You should be able to bring up issues without being dismissed or insulted or stonewalled or bullshitted. But, like, DO you come across as judgmental or a perfectionist? Are your expectations reasonable? I think a counselor could help with communicating your needs in a way she can receive them. To me, your frustration does come through so strongly that it does not surprise me to learn she feels she's being judged. (When you talk about her drinking, instead of telegraphing concern for her health, you say you're "embarrassed," for example.)
You are so right that you can't just lay out a litany of grievances, everything from things she forgot to get from the store to personal failings. Nobody on earth would respond well to that. You don't want to be her taskmaster and supervisor, that's not marriage. You need to figure out the overarching problems, what you want and need from her, whether it's reasonable to expect that from her, accept that she may not change into what you seem to want her to be, and communicate that in a loving, compassionate, let's-fix-this together way. And be prepared to hear your own failings and HER needs.
This is why I recommend doing this in counseling, because that stuff is hard to say and even harder to hear.
posted by kapers at 11:37 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
That...sounds like a fair split to me? I'm sure it's frustrating when she doesn't come through on stuff she's said she'll do, but are you maybe undervaluing her contributions because of other issues in the marriage? Cooking, dishes, trash, bathroom surfaces are fairly constant duties, and important-- you would be starving and living in filth without these. Paying most of the time also seems fair to me since men usually earn more than women and many couples view their money as one pot regardless.
Of course, every relationship is different and wanting a 50/50 split is valid if that's what you both agree to. These things should never be unspoken, though. What might seem fair to you, what might seem like it should go without saying to you, might be foreign to someone else. You have to work these details out explicitly.
You should be able to bring up issues without being dismissed or insulted or stonewalled or bullshitted. But, like, DO you come across as judgmental or a perfectionist? Are your expectations reasonable? I think a counselor could help with communicating your needs in a way she can receive them. To me, your frustration does come through so strongly that it does not surprise me to learn she feels she's being judged. (When you talk about her drinking, instead of telegraphing concern for her health, you say you're "embarrassed," for example.)
You are so right that you can't just lay out a litany of grievances, everything from things she forgot to get from the store to personal failings. Nobody on earth would respond well to that. You don't want to be her taskmaster and supervisor, that's not marriage. You need to figure out the overarching problems, what you want and need from her, whether it's reasonable to expect that from her, accept that she may not change into what you seem to want her to be, and communicate that in a loving, compassionate, let's-fix-this together way. And be prepared to hear your own failings and HER needs.
This is why I recommend doing this in counseling, because that stuff is hard to say and even harder to hear.
posted by kapers at 11:37 AM on February 27, 2016 [14 favorites]
If anything needs to be done beyond “cook food / deal with dishes / take out trash / wipe down bathroom”, I am the one that handles it.
I missed this until kapers pointed it out above. If she does this every day, this takes up a substantial amount of time and, if the cooking food also involves grocery shopping and planning meals, mental energy. I agree that if she's the only one doing this stuff daily and leaving the other stuff to you, it's a fair split.
Saying she'll do things and never doing them is a problem, of course.
posted by tiger tiger at 11:45 AM on February 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
I missed this until kapers pointed it out above. If she does this every day, this takes up a substantial amount of time and, if the cooking food also involves grocery shopping and planning meals, mental energy. I agree that if she's the only one doing this stuff daily and leaving the other stuff to you, it's a fair split.
Saying she'll do things and never doing them is a problem, of course.
posted by tiger tiger at 11:45 AM on February 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Drinking the way she does, consistently, is what you do when you're an alcoholic, but it's also what you do when a situation is unbearable and you must remove yourself from it, or erase yourself out of it. You can do this very deliberately and systematically, without getting any particular addictive pleasure out of it. Does she like to have these parties, does she like all the people who come to them? Does she have, or has she ever had, any social anxieties or fear that people other than you are watching and judging her? If you drink enough to behave foolishly, drinking a bit more will stop you from minding. Though you don't mention any particularly foolish or shameful behavior (yelling, property destruction, inappropriate sexual behavior, violent aggression), just the gradual loss of coordination and passing out that is the pure result of steady alcohol intake.
From the way you tell it, she could just be an irresponsible problem drinker who doesn't care about you or her life, that's possible. But although some people drink too much just because they like it too much, others drink too much because being fully conscious of their surroundings is intolerable. You don't say much about what she thinks, says, or feels -- perhaps she doesn't tell you -- so it's hard to say. But if you are going to say anything to her, start with the drinking, not the lightbulbs and the chores: not to tell her she is a sloppy lush who embarrasses you, and not to tell her she needs help with her little problem, but to say that you are worried because she seems desperately unhappy and you don't know why.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:00 PM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
From the way you tell it, she could just be an irresponsible problem drinker who doesn't care about you or her life, that's possible. But although some people drink too much just because they like it too much, others drink too much because being fully conscious of their surroundings is intolerable. You don't say much about what she thinks, says, or feels -- perhaps she doesn't tell you -- so it's hard to say. But if you are going to say anything to her, start with the drinking, not the lightbulbs and the chores: not to tell her she is a sloppy lush who embarrasses you, and not to tell her she needs help with her little problem, but to say that you are worried because she seems desperately unhappy and you don't know why.
posted by queenofbithynia at 1:00 PM on February 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
As far as the chores/labor stuff, you'll probably get more traction if you come at it in a positive way, like "how can we do this stuff better? Should we use Wunderlist? Google Calendar? Let's make this easier on us."
As far as the drinking, everyone I know who's had a long or short foray into that kind of super-powered consumption in groups has eventually figured out they had an anxiety issue they weren't dealing with.
Many of those people also improved their general adulting once they got a handle on it, as well. Chore anxiety is a real thing that people with anxiety and/or depression struggle hugely with, often in perfectionist loops that end in "why even start?"
I agree that on that angle, you may just have to say "you seem unhappy and uncomfortable and I worry what's going to happen if you don't address that."
posted by Lyn Never at 1:46 PM on February 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
As far as the drinking, everyone I know who's had a long or short foray into that kind of super-powered consumption in groups has eventually figured out they had an anxiety issue they weren't dealing with.
Many of those people also improved their general adulting once they got a handle on it, as well. Chore anxiety is a real thing that people with anxiety and/or depression struggle hugely with, often in perfectionist loops that end in "why even start?"
I agree that on that angle, you may just have to say "you seem unhappy and uncomfortable and I worry what's going to happen if you don't address that."
posted by Lyn Never at 1:46 PM on February 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Honestly it sounds like you're not treating her like a wife at all. Why does it matter that you pay for most stuff? It's not just "you're the man" but also, you're her husband. It's totally reasonable to expect you to pay for taking your wife out. It's crazy to think she should be responsible for paying when she eats lunch with you at your work, or that she should be "demonstrating gratitude" every time you pay for a marital expense.
Also, visiting friends is not a real vacation for her, nor do you get brownie points for contributing financially, which is your job. It's not a bonus. That's what you're supposed to be doing. A real vacation for her would be one where she wasn't expected to do work or emotional labor of any kind, and it was just to have fun together, not to maintain relationships.
Honestly it sounds like you are expecting her to be a full time "wife" in addition to a full time worker. She's cooking and cleaning and working full time, but you're pissed you have to vacuum? Seriously?
You guys need counseling, but not so you can figure out how to put your petty gripes on her - so you can figure out how to behave in a relationship too. Yes, she needs to work on her drinking, but that doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
posted by corb at 2:33 PM on February 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
Also, visiting friends is not a real vacation for her, nor do you get brownie points for contributing financially, which is your job. It's not a bonus. That's what you're supposed to be doing. A real vacation for her would be one where she wasn't expected to do work or emotional labor of any kind, and it was just to have fun together, not to maintain relationships.
Honestly it sounds like you are expecting her to be a full time "wife" in addition to a full time worker. She's cooking and cleaning and working full time, but you're pissed you have to vacuum? Seriously?
You guys need counseling, but not so you can figure out how to put your petty gripes on her - so you can figure out how to behave in a relationship too. Yes, she needs to work on her drinking, but that doesn't give you a free pass to be an asshole.
posted by corb at 2:33 PM on February 27, 2016 [20 favorites]
get thee to therapy
posted by Sebmojo at 3:01 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Sebmojo at 3:01 PM on February 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think you would benefit from Al-Anon meetings. Many of her behaviors - not just the drinking - and your feelings about those behaviors are very very familiar to me, the wife of an addict.
Came here to say this. In most of the meetings I've been to there is at least one share that is identical to yours.
Also, Al-anon is not AA. Al-anon is for family and friends of alcoholics/addicts.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:22 PM on February 27, 2016
Came here to say this. In most of the meetings I've been to there is at least one share that is identical to yours.
Also, Al-anon is not AA. Al-anon is for family and friends of alcoholics/addicts.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:22 PM on February 27, 2016
I used to drink like that at parties and it was 100000% my out of control anxiety, not alcoholism.
posted by gatorae at 3:43 PM on February 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by gatorae at 3:43 PM on February 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's a long thread already, but I just woke up and wanted to pile on, since I was a wife who could have been (and probably was) described in the way you describe your wife. I didn't drink-- but I did act in ways that I was conscious broke the group social norms. Here's a list, in case it's helpful for you. I am a different person, but some of it may apply.
Cleaning. My ex used to say "frumiousb never cleans the kitchen" (as an example). This might have been true. However, I was the only one cleaning the cat litter box , cleaning the toilet, doing the laundry, changing the sheets, paying the bills, etc. Whatever I did was invisible and unimportant and everything he did was the most important thing on earth. It was *so* frustrating, and it made negotiating impossible. If the tasks I did weren't tasks he cared about, how could we ever agree a reasonable split? This was made worse by the fact that we were very different in what we considered clean. I liked things to be clean/sanitary-- so I cared a lot about things like cleaning the toilet and litter boxes and clean sheets. He liked things to be clean/visibly orderly. I didn't care so much about clean/visibly orderly and he didn't care so much about clean/sanitary. We lived on different continents of clean.
Cooking. Cooking was one of our big and huge points of disagreement. I used to love to cook, and being married totally killed it. Ex would complain that I never cooked and always let him do it. However, when I did cook then I would generally be criticised for 1) cooking a recipe I had never tried before (I loved trying new kinds of food and food from different cultures) 2) cooking food he found unfamiliar (See above.) and 3) Doing it wrong. (messy, disorganised and using bad cookbooks). It was to the point that I wanted to cry when I saw this IKEA advertisement because I was so much that kid in our kitchen.
Money. (Third verse/same as the first) We kept our finances semi-separate too-- not something I recommend, by the way. Since I generally arranged all the house bills, at one point I noticed he had stopped putting in his monthly contribution to our household fund. I asked him why, and he said it was because he always paid for everything. When we sat down with an excel sheet and reckoned it out, it turned out that not only did we pay roughly the same amount, but that I actually had a small edge in how much I contributed. Same factor at work-- he didn't see what I paid as important, so it didn't exist.
Like I said, I didn't drink in a way that was out of line with his friends, but I did act out in other ways that I know his group considered inappropriate. In my case, that meant that I would often go to bed directly after a meal instead of staying awake for hours drinking coffee or disagreeing politically in conversation, both things earning me a reputation as rude and standoffish. This was partly them and partly me. I'm not proud of it, and I see it now as a symptom of my clear anger and anxiety at the time. Your wife may have a real drinking problem. Don't know, can't say. I can only say that acting out in front of friends was part of a similar picture for me.
I don't have very good advice for you about how to recover from the vicious cycle you describe. Do you really want to fix it? From your question, you don't sound as though you are open to look at it from your wife's point of view. I would advise you to get individual counselling and decide if you actually want to try to repair it. Is it still possible for you to look at your wife as a reasonable person who you love? Because that's what you need to do-- look at her as naturally healthy and whole. Just like you. If you can't, then there isn't any hope.
posted by frumiousb at 4:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
Cleaning. My ex used to say "frumiousb never cleans the kitchen" (as an example). This might have been true. However, I was the only one cleaning the cat litter box , cleaning the toilet, doing the laundry, changing the sheets, paying the bills, etc. Whatever I did was invisible and unimportant and everything he did was the most important thing on earth. It was *so* frustrating, and it made negotiating impossible. If the tasks I did weren't tasks he cared about, how could we ever agree a reasonable split? This was made worse by the fact that we were very different in what we considered clean. I liked things to be clean/sanitary-- so I cared a lot about things like cleaning the toilet and litter boxes and clean sheets. He liked things to be clean/visibly orderly. I didn't care so much about clean/visibly orderly and he didn't care so much about clean/sanitary. We lived on different continents of clean.
Cooking. Cooking was one of our big and huge points of disagreement. I used to love to cook, and being married totally killed it. Ex would complain that I never cooked and always let him do it. However, when I did cook then I would generally be criticised for 1) cooking a recipe I had never tried before (I loved trying new kinds of food and food from different cultures) 2) cooking food he found unfamiliar (See above.) and 3) Doing it wrong. (messy, disorganised and using bad cookbooks). It was to the point that I wanted to cry when I saw this IKEA advertisement because I was so much that kid in our kitchen.
Money. (Third verse/same as the first) We kept our finances semi-separate too-- not something I recommend, by the way. Since I generally arranged all the house bills, at one point I noticed he had stopped putting in his monthly contribution to our household fund. I asked him why, and he said it was because he always paid for everything. When we sat down with an excel sheet and reckoned it out, it turned out that not only did we pay roughly the same amount, but that I actually had a small edge in how much I contributed. Same factor at work-- he didn't see what I paid as important, so it didn't exist.
Like I said, I didn't drink in a way that was out of line with his friends, but I did act out in other ways that I know his group considered inappropriate. In my case, that meant that I would often go to bed directly after a meal instead of staying awake for hours drinking coffee or disagreeing politically in conversation, both things earning me a reputation as rude and standoffish. This was partly them and partly me. I'm not proud of it, and I see it now as a symptom of my clear anger and anxiety at the time. Your wife may have a real drinking problem. Don't know, can't say. I can only say that acting out in front of friends was part of a similar picture for me.
I don't have very good advice for you about how to recover from the vicious cycle you describe. Do you really want to fix it? From your question, you don't sound as though you are open to look at it from your wife's point of view. I would advise you to get individual counselling and decide if you actually want to try to repair it. Is it still possible for you to look at your wife as a reasonable person who you love? Because that's what you need to do-- look at her as naturally healthy and whole. Just like you. If you can't, then there isn't any hope.
posted by frumiousb at 4:29 PM on February 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
You didn't ask us if you were being unreasonable (I think you are, particularly if she cooks every night, but that's by the way.) You asked how to bring it up.
I know that is really hard. I do think the idea of a therapist could be an opener. Like, "hey so I've been reading lately about how other couples divide up responsibilities in the home and it made me think about how we do it. Maybe there's other ways that could serve us better. And I was also wondering if you were trying to tell me something, since we'd agreed you were going to do the painting thing and that was a while ago. No, you just haven't gotten around to it? Ok, but that's an example of how our communication could also be improved, so what do you say, are you up for a visit or two to a therapist to see if they have any good ideas for us?"
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:53 PM on February 27, 2016
I know that is really hard. I do think the idea of a therapist could be an opener. Like, "hey so I've been reading lately about how other couples divide up responsibilities in the home and it made me think about how we do it. Maybe there's other ways that could serve us better. And I was also wondering if you were trying to tell me something, since we'd agreed you were going to do the painting thing and that was a while ago. No, you just haven't gotten around to it? Ok, but that's an example of how our communication could also be improved, so what do you say, are you up for a visit or two to a therapist to see if they have any good ideas for us?"
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:53 PM on February 27, 2016
Eh, I'm not so sure about the folks taking OP to task about his remark that his wife cooks, does dishes, and basic cleanup. Unless he clarifies that he doesn't ever do those jobs, I'd presume that he does his fair share.
And I'd say, as much as those tasks matter, which they do, they are not otherwise a get-out-of-adulting-free card. There are many, many more responsibilities to having a good grown up life together. House maintenance, car maintenance, personal finance, financial planning, lawn maintenance. It sucks to do all of those solo and without thanks.
posted by Sublimity at 9:44 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
And I'd say, as much as those tasks matter, which they do, they are not otherwise a get-out-of-adulting-free card. There are many, many more responsibilities to having a good grown up life together. House maintenance, car maintenance, personal finance, financial planning, lawn maintenance. It sucks to do all of those solo and without thanks.
posted by Sublimity at 9:44 PM on February 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
From an anonymous commenter:
My husband sounds much like you, and he might describe me and has in the past described me like you describe your wife. While we don't own a house together we rent together and have a child.posted by taz at 2:48 AM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Basically from the moment we moved in I realised I had made a big mistake. I had known him for over 10 years, but never seen this side. Suddenly the easygoing, not very tidy or even cleanly man turned into a perfectionist neatfreak, who turned every penny twice. He complained about my level of cleaning, cooking, housework, unpacking of moving boxes, etc etc. Anything I did was wrong. He had this picture that I should not only be the perfect mother but the perfect house wife and when I was not he tried to change me. He only worried that the new appartment should be shiny and when I cleaned he would actually clean after me because it was not to his standards, berating me for being too dumb to clean.
And while I did/do not drink (but I would have, except I was breastfeeding a young baby at the time we moved in together) I tried my level best to block out the nasty surprise of who he had suddenly turned into by withdrawing into myself and developing a clinical depression.
We have in many ways moved on from the horror of those early years (because I went into therapy for myself, he refuses to go as he says he has no problem), but reading your post I remember the things I wish my husband had said or done or would do which would have made such a difference to me. He let his own insecurities of suddenly being a family rule him and tried to rule me with them.
I felt unloved, and on a deeper and more basic level unwanted. He viewed, and sometimes still treats me, as a room mate he has to put up with (in our case because of the child). As initially while I was a SAHM he paid the rent, he used this as a lever to enforce his rules. I now work and contribute to the rent but he still views me more like a maid than anything else.
My point is: if you do not want to make your wife feel like an unwanted roommate and/or maid, skip the criticism about cleaning etc, and try to see her as a person. Look beyond your standards: do you still care for her? Like her? Love her? Does she know that? The drinking suggests to me she does not.
I think you should consider she feels rejected and unwanted because she does not live up to your expecations and this is a vicious cycle: the more you nag, the more she will withdraw. I did. I eventually became suicidal because of his indifference to me as a person.
Re the money - all the things you write about money my husband could have written. He comes from a relatively wealthy family and if he does not have a 6-figure sum cushion squirreled away he has existential angst. I however, grew up in a poor family, garnered wages was the usual thing, etc. I grew up hand to mouth. Consider your respective financial backgrounds - are they similar? or very different?
I would say: gently talk to her about the drinking, tell her (if it is true) that it worries you for her sake (not that it embarasses you in front of your friends!) tell her (again if it is true) that you love her, and care for her and want to be her best friend. And only then talk about cleaning, money, etc. At least this is what I wish my husband had done in a very similar situation.
The worst was when she complained that we never go on any “real vacations”. This was during a trip to see some friends that live out of state. We make this trip a few times a year and her comment came after we spent overnight in a hotel, ate breakfast, and filled up my car - all paid for by me.
Driving to the same town to see the same people multiple times a year does not sound like a vacation to me. I think this is what she was trying to say. To better communicate, you could ask her what she means by a real vacation so you don't sit and stew about it like this. Does she want to go somewhere she has never been, somewhere with a beach, somewhere you have to fly to? Why are you paying for the whole trip if you resent it?
Are these friends that you visit and/or the ones you drink with your friends, her friends or both? Don't just say both because you both spend time with them. Does she spend time or communicate with these people without you being involved? If not, they are your friends and not hers.
posted by soelo at 8:51 AM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Driving to the same town to see the same people multiple times a year does not sound like a vacation to me. I think this is what she was trying to say. To better communicate, you could ask her what she means by a real vacation so you don't sit and stew about it like this. Does she want to go somewhere she has never been, somewhere with a beach, somewhere you have to fly to? Why are you paying for the whole trip if you resent it?
Are these friends that you visit and/or the ones you drink with your friends, her friends or both? Don't just say both because you both spend time with them. Does she spend time or communicate with these people without you being involved? If not, they are your friends and not hers.
posted by soelo at 8:51 AM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Waitaminute. She does all the cooking, cleaning the dishes, taking out the trash and keeping the bathroom clean? For real? That isn't fair in my book. Not at all. I cook, you clean. We take turns cleaning the bathroom once a week. Maybe you always take out the trash, she brings the can in from the curb. If you don't divvy this daily stuff up, it really adds up time and energy-wise.
I can't believe everyone else is thinking this division of household labor is okay. It's not. If someone expected me to cook and clean up and scrub the goddamn toilet and then resented me for not vacuuming, I'd want to light my hair on fire.
Moving house is incredibly stressful and a lot of WORK. Who packed everything? Be really honest here. Are you expecting her to unpack everything and put it away? Why? I think it might help you to read the compendium on emotional labor.
Her drinking does sound troubling, but we don't have enough info to go in my opinion. So many questions there: does she drink outside of social occasions, how much, how often, if this is a new thing for her, if she wants to be hanging out with those friends, etc.
Money-wise, if you don't' have a joint account for shared expenses, get one and decide together how you will use it! You could use it for lunch, groceries, mortgage payments, vacations, new furniture, etc.
posted by purple_bird at 11:23 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't believe everyone else is thinking this division of household labor is okay. It's not. If someone expected me to cook and clean up and scrub the goddamn toilet and then resented me for not vacuuming, I'd want to light my hair on fire.
Moving house is incredibly stressful and a lot of WORK. Who packed everything? Be really honest here. Are you expecting her to unpack everything and put it away? Why? I think it might help you to read the compendium on emotional labor.
Her drinking does sound troubling, but we don't have enough info to go in my opinion. So many questions there: does she drink outside of social occasions, how much, how often, if this is a new thing for her, if she wants to be hanging out with those friends, etc.
Money-wise, if you don't' have a joint account for shared expenses, get one and decide together how you will use it! You could use it for lunch, groceries, mortgage payments, vacations, new furniture, etc.
posted by purple_bird at 11:23 AM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]
Waitaminute. She does all the cooking, cleaning the dishes, taking out the trash and keeping the bathroom clean? For real? That isn't fair in my book.
Seriously. Maybe she doesn't have the energy to "take responsibility" for all your desired projects around the house because she's already "taken" (been given?) the responsibility for all the real chores already?
Maybe you could try swapping chore responsibilities for a while (a few months?) to see if your current division still feels fair to you after that. From your own description, it sounds like you somehow ended up with all the chores that don't need to be done very often barring obvious messes (and in fact, could be done literally never without most people really noticing at all) and aren't particularly unpleasant (dusting/vacuuming/mopping) whereas she ended up with all the chores that are absolutely critical, very unpleasant, and need to be done daily or the house quickly becomes nonfunctional. I know you say you do "everything else" but that's awfully vague....most households don't really have a whole lot of "else". And if it's that unbalanced when you describe it, I'm curious how she would describe the situation.
posted by randomnity at 12:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
Seriously. Maybe she doesn't have the energy to "take responsibility" for all your desired projects around the house because she's already "taken" (been given?) the responsibility for all the real chores already?
Maybe you could try swapping chore responsibilities for a while (a few months?) to see if your current division still feels fair to you after that. From your own description, it sounds like you somehow ended up with all the chores that don't need to be done very often barring obvious messes (and in fact, could be done literally never without most people really noticing at all) and aren't particularly unpleasant (dusting/vacuuming/mopping) whereas she ended up with all the chores that are absolutely critical, very unpleasant, and need to be done daily or the house quickly becomes nonfunctional. I know you say you do "everything else" but that's awfully vague....most households don't really have a whole lot of "else". And if it's that unbalanced when you describe it, I'm curious how she would describe the situation.
posted by randomnity at 12:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]
This has been bothering me too as I keep reading, and I couldn't decide if I was just getting a crooked read on the household responsibilities.
I am the one who does 95% of the cooking, as well. And planning, shopping, putting away, inventorying, designing the menus, and stopping whatever the hell else I'm doing every day to execute. I do alllll the giving-a-shit, and if I get stuck with a work project or don't feel well or whatever, he comes wandering through at 6-7pm, 2-3 hours after somebody needed to give a shit, going "should I...cook something, or order?"
Bare minimum this is 10 hours a week of work - about an hour a day plus the shopping that I try to only do on weekends. I'm not even counting the time I have to spend just figuring out the logistics and timetable.
I don't vacuum. Because a) I do all the thinky chores in order to leave him the rote ones, b) let me know when vacuuming, mopping, taking out the trash, putting the bins on the curb/bringing them in, doing the dishes (but not otherwise cleaning the kitchen after I cook all his meals, and also I usually have to do the dishes myself once or twice a week or I can't actually cook) and picking up dog shit takes ten hours a week and we'll talk.
If that's what you were actually saying, that she's cooking your meals, cleaning up after, and then has the audacity to not ever vacuum? You do have a serious negativity problem, it's just not the one you think you do.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:27 PM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am the one who does 95% of the cooking, as well. And planning, shopping, putting away, inventorying, designing the menus, and stopping whatever the hell else I'm doing every day to execute. I do alllll the giving-a-shit, and if I get stuck with a work project or don't feel well or whatever, he comes wandering through at 6-7pm, 2-3 hours after somebody needed to give a shit, going "should I...cook something, or order?"
Bare minimum this is 10 hours a week of work - about an hour a day plus the shopping that I try to only do on weekends. I'm not even counting the time I have to spend just figuring out the logistics and timetable.
I don't vacuum. Because a) I do all the thinky chores in order to leave him the rote ones, b) let me know when vacuuming, mopping, taking out the trash, putting the bins on the curb/bringing them in, doing the dishes (but not otherwise cleaning the kitchen after I cook all his meals, and also I usually have to do the dishes myself once or twice a week or I can't actually cook) and picking up dog shit takes ten hours a week and we'll talk.
If that's what you were actually saying, that she's cooking your meals, cleaning up after, and then has the audacity to not ever vacuum? You do have a serious negativity problem, it's just not the one you think you do.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:27 PM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
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