Deciding whether to become a parent
February 24, 2016 1:35 PM Subscribe
So the big question in my life right now is whether I ever want to become a parent.
I’d particularly like to hear from you if, like me, you are someone who has many interests, is never bored, always has things they want to do with their time, and who questioned whether you wanted to have children because of this – whether you chose in the end to become a parent or not.
(The above can probably function as a TL;DR version. If you want a fuller picture, read on.)
I am in a very happy relationship and have been with my partner for five years. I’m 26 and she’s 27. She definitely wants to have children in perhaps 5–7 years’ time, and I’m not so sure.
The biggest factor for me is time. I know that being a parent takes a massive time commitment, and it’s really important to me that if I have children, I am willing to make that commitment, to enter into it with the willingness to devote all of the necessary love, energy and time to my children that they need. I couldn’t bear to just “try it and see” and then regret the decision.
But I’m someone who has lots of interests and they are all really important to me and to my happiness, as well as to my sense of purpose in life (in some cases). Even currently, working fewer-than-average hours and without any other big time responsibilities, I often feel like I don’t have quite enough time to do what I want to do. A brief overview:
• I work freelance as a translator/proofreader/editor;
• I have a really deep interest in empathic communication, and over the next five years or so I plan to develop this – via giving workshops on the subject – until I can make it a regular part of the work that I do;
• I also enjoy learning new languages for the experience of it, and I’m hoping to start on a much more difficult one this year;
• I’m a musician and pursue multiple different music-making projects;
• I like to play badminton once a week for exercise, for enjoyment and for a sense of progression too;
• I enjoy playing video games for fun and mental stimulation;
• It’s important to me to have regular contact with friends and to have people to discuss new ideas with;
• It’s also important to me to have time to do things one-on-one with my partner;
• I like to keep on top of, and sometimes be involved with, political and campaigning issues.
I’m not saying I’m unwilling to sacrifice any of those pursuits. But realistically, how many could I actually keep up if I were a parent? My guess is probably one main hobby (or “one and a half”) with the occasional bit of time spent on socialising. Does this correlate with other people’s experiences?
I’m also aware of the financial cost of raising children, and I feel reluctant to commit myself to having to earn a minimum regular income in order to (along with my partner) adequately support a family. I value very highly having the freedom and money to pursue my interests and perhaps to launch new ventures in the future (the empathic communication teaching, or other things that come up), as well as enough spare to give 10% of my income to charity (which is also important to me).
Don’t get me wrong, I can see the positive sides to having children too. Experiencing a kind of love you would probably never feel otherwise. Watching them develop – which I’m sure would be both fascinating and fulfilling. Being reminded of certain perspectives on life that you might have forgotten as an adult. (Hopefully) having someone to support you when you get old.
I just don’t know whether my personal experience of parenthood would compensate for the loss of time, freedom and enjoyment (of my interests and friends) that would come with it. If I imagine having a child right now, or in a year or two, I picture myself feeling regret, regular irritation and frustration. People have told me that the things I’m currently interested in would quite effortlessly slip away if I become a parent, to be replaced by interest in my child(ren) – but I find that really hard to imagine.
Finally, I think that this whole question points at a fundamental difference between my partner and me, and therefore raises another scary question. She has told me that, while she’d like to have a fulfilling job, she thinks that at the end of her life, she will look back on her family and personal relationships as the things that gave her life meaning, and won’t be very concerned by what she did in her working life. I, on the other hand, while I certainly empathise with that and value personal relationships highly too, am certain that I will care about what I did with my working life when I look back. I want to be able to look back and think, “Yes, I made a contribution to others via my work; I helped people with empathic communication teaching; I made some great music; I explored language-learning possibilities and the cultures that go with them.”
I don’t know whether that is a deal-breaker sort of difference. I love my partner deeply and can’t imagine a more loving relationship with a partner. For that reason, I want us to stay together. But is this difference in the things we fundamentally want out of life significant enough to mean that we would really both be happier with someone else in the long run? (I should probably add that although she and I really want to stay together, if I conclude that I don’t want children, I’m fairly sure we will split up.)
I guess that’s enough details for now. Thanks so much for reading if you made it this far, and I look forward to your replies.
I am in a very happy relationship and have been with my partner for five years. I’m 26 and she’s 27. She definitely wants to have children in perhaps 5–7 years’ time, and I’m not so sure.
The biggest factor for me is time. I know that being a parent takes a massive time commitment, and it’s really important to me that if I have children, I am willing to make that commitment, to enter into it with the willingness to devote all of the necessary love, energy and time to my children that they need. I couldn’t bear to just “try it and see” and then regret the decision.
But I’m someone who has lots of interests and they are all really important to me and to my happiness, as well as to my sense of purpose in life (in some cases). Even currently, working fewer-than-average hours and without any other big time responsibilities, I often feel like I don’t have quite enough time to do what I want to do. A brief overview:
• I work freelance as a translator/proofreader/editor;
• I have a really deep interest in empathic communication, and over the next five years or so I plan to develop this – via giving workshops on the subject – until I can make it a regular part of the work that I do;
• I also enjoy learning new languages for the experience of it, and I’m hoping to start on a much more difficult one this year;
• I’m a musician and pursue multiple different music-making projects;
• I like to play badminton once a week for exercise, for enjoyment and for a sense of progression too;
• I enjoy playing video games for fun and mental stimulation;
• It’s important to me to have regular contact with friends and to have people to discuss new ideas with;
• It’s also important to me to have time to do things one-on-one with my partner;
• I like to keep on top of, and sometimes be involved with, political and campaigning issues.
I’m not saying I’m unwilling to sacrifice any of those pursuits. But realistically, how many could I actually keep up if I were a parent? My guess is probably one main hobby (or “one and a half”) with the occasional bit of time spent on socialising. Does this correlate with other people’s experiences?
I’m also aware of the financial cost of raising children, and I feel reluctant to commit myself to having to earn a minimum regular income in order to (along with my partner) adequately support a family. I value very highly having the freedom and money to pursue my interests and perhaps to launch new ventures in the future (the empathic communication teaching, or other things that come up), as well as enough spare to give 10% of my income to charity (which is also important to me).
Don’t get me wrong, I can see the positive sides to having children too. Experiencing a kind of love you would probably never feel otherwise. Watching them develop – which I’m sure would be both fascinating and fulfilling. Being reminded of certain perspectives on life that you might have forgotten as an adult. (Hopefully) having someone to support you when you get old.
I just don’t know whether my personal experience of parenthood would compensate for the loss of time, freedom and enjoyment (of my interests and friends) that would come with it. If I imagine having a child right now, or in a year or two, I picture myself feeling regret, regular irritation and frustration. People have told me that the things I’m currently interested in would quite effortlessly slip away if I become a parent, to be replaced by interest in my child(ren) – but I find that really hard to imagine.
Finally, I think that this whole question points at a fundamental difference between my partner and me, and therefore raises another scary question. She has told me that, while she’d like to have a fulfilling job, she thinks that at the end of her life, she will look back on her family and personal relationships as the things that gave her life meaning, and won’t be very concerned by what she did in her working life. I, on the other hand, while I certainly empathise with that and value personal relationships highly too, am certain that I will care about what I did with my working life when I look back. I want to be able to look back and think, “Yes, I made a contribution to others via my work; I helped people with empathic communication teaching; I made some great music; I explored language-learning possibilities and the cultures that go with them.”
I don’t know whether that is a deal-breaker sort of difference. I love my partner deeply and can’t imagine a more loving relationship with a partner. For that reason, I want us to stay together. But is this difference in the things we fundamentally want out of life significant enough to mean that we would really both be happier with someone else in the long run? (I should probably add that although she and I really want to stay together, if I conclude that I don’t want children, I’m fairly sure we will split up.)
I guess that’s enough details for now. Thanks so much for reading if you made it this far, and I look forward to your replies.
I don't think you can really do a CBA on whether to have kids or not. It's either something you want or you don't. I do think some of that "I have to accomplish great things and leave my mark upon the world!" stuff recedes in importance as you leave your 20s and get older, and you start to value your fundamental relationships a little more, but I can't speak for everyone there.
If you're having kids with a partner*, you do need to make a priority of working with them to balance the load of childcare and other adult responsibility stuff, not figuring out where you can squeeze in badminton tournaments &c. Not to say that you'll never have time to do any of these things, but you kind of have to backburner the recreational stuff, or keep it to things you can jump in and out of on an ad hoc basis knowing that there are few things kids are better at than ruining any firm scheduling commitments you make. They will subconsciously know that you if planned to host an important political fundraiser on Sunday night, then that afternoon will be the optimal time for them to get violently ill with projectile-vomiting pneumonia, stuff like that.
Anyway, good luck figuring this out! And if you decide you really don't want to have kids, be up front with your partner about that ASAP.
*Single parents know that the only leisure activity you will have the time or energy for is sitting quietly in darkened rooms, massaging your temples
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:02 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
If you're having kids with a partner*, you do need to make a priority of working with them to balance the load of childcare and other adult responsibility stuff, not figuring out where you can squeeze in badminton tournaments &c. Not to say that you'll never have time to do any of these things, but you kind of have to backburner the recreational stuff, or keep it to things you can jump in and out of on an ad hoc basis knowing that there are few things kids are better at than ruining any firm scheduling commitments you make. They will subconsciously know that you if planned to host an important political fundraiser on Sunday night, then that afternoon will be the optimal time for them to get violently ill with projectile-vomiting pneumonia, stuff like that.
Anyway, good luck figuring this out! And if you decide you really don't want to have kids, be up front with your partner about that ASAP.
*Single parents know that the only leisure activity you will have the time or energy for is sitting quietly in darkened rooms, massaging your temples
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:02 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
Like you, I'm on the fence about possibly having a family some day, in part because I'm concerned that it would take away from the time I have to myself and the freedom and money I have to pursue my own interests. I'm a few years older than you, though, and the one thing I would suggest is that you consider that as you age, some of the things that seem so interesting now might lose some of their lustre. At 26, you're still relatively new to being an adult and having a significant amount of freedom to do what you want. Eventually all that freedom can start to become kind of boring and empty for some people. The work that you love now can become tedious, too, and you might find that you're not able to make as much of a contribution to the world through your work as you'd like. A lot of people eventually start to find that they want something "more" or "different", which often ends up meaning deciding to have a family.
Also, I completely agree with Atrahasis.
posted by as_night_falls at 2:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, I completely agree with Atrahasis.
posted by as_night_falls at 2:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Either you do or you don’t: If you do, then get on with it because it’s far easier when you’re younger, so long as you’re financially secure enough to bear the costs & you’ll have plenty of time left to do exciting things when the kids have left home when you’re still young enough to be active, both physically and mentally.
Whatever you do, don’t keep this poor woman hanging around for years on end while you “make up your mind” before eventually deciding that you don’t want children. That would be grossly unfair.
posted by pharm at 2:06 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Whatever you do, don’t keep this poor woman hanging around for years on end while you “make up your mind” before eventually deciding that you don’t want children. That would be grossly unfair.
posted by pharm at 2:06 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, heck. (On preview - I guess I will join the pileon instead of just deleting what I wrote.)
I am a fulltime parent who freelances as a localization engineer/DTP wonk after everyone goes to sleep. BLF Jr is approximately two point seven five years old. I have time for, um, negative two hobbies. My musical gear - it is in boxes, untouched since BLF Jr was negative six months old. The folding kayak is in the attic; I may get it out this summer. Haven't seen my friends in a few months, although I hope to go to a show sometime in March. Or April. Or someday. In general, my life looked a lot like yours when i was in my twenties.
I could go on, but in short, your concerns about free time are totally valid. Here is one massive difference between you and I: I am an old. Forty-two years of age. I am very, very glad that I waited - that I had the freedom to wait, as a dude - before becoming a parent. You can't dupe my clever trick, because your partner will run out of reproductive freedom at some point. You can't ask her to wait and see if you want kids when you're in your thirties (without your being a totally selfish jerk about it, because what if your answer winds up being "no"?).
You can do all those things in your short Goals list and still be a parent. However, in order to avoid being an asshole, you actually do have to either tell your partner "Yes, I will commit to reproducing with you in the next 5-7 years, preferably at the outside end of that range," or break up yesterday. Those are your options.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 2:08 PM on February 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
I am a fulltime parent who freelances as a localization engineer/DTP wonk after everyone goes to sleep. BLF Jr is approximately two point seven five years old. I have time for, um, negative two hobbies. My musical gear - it is in boxes, untouched since BLF Jr was negative six months old. The folding kayak is in the attic; I may get it out this summer. Haven't seen my friends in a few months, although I hope to go to a show sometime in March. Or April. Or someday. In general, my life looked a lot like yours when i was in my twenties.
I could go on, but in short, your concerns about free time are totally valid. Here is one massive difference between you and I: I am an old. Forty-two years of age. I am very, very glad that I waited - that I had the freedom to wait, as a dude - before becoming a parent. You can't dupe my clever trick, because your partner will run out of reproductive freedom at some point. You can't ask her to wait and see if you want kids when you're in your thirties (without your being a totally selfish jerk about it, because what if your answer winds up being "no"?).
You can do all those things in your short Goals list and still be a parent. However, in order to avoid being an asshole, you actually do have to either tell your partner "Yes, I will commit to reproducing with you in the next 5-7 years, preferably at the outside end of that range," or break up yesterday. Those are your options.
posted by BrunoLatourFanclub at 2:08 PM on February 24, 2016 [12 favorites]
The rule of thumb I'm following and rather like is simple: If it's not a strong Yes, it's a strong No.
In other words, there's some people who, even as kids, imagined their future as including children. They want it. They definitely do. And that's great, we need more people like that. But for everyone else... why put yourself through that if you're ambivalent? Find someone who's on the same page as you. With everything you're driven towards/for, life's too short to do "eh" things of this scale.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:11 PM on February 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
In other words, there's some people who, even as kids, imagined their future as including children. They want it. They definitely do. And that's great, we need more people like that. But for everyone else... why put yourself through that if you're ambivalent? Find someone who's on the same page as you. With everything you're driven towards/for, life's too short to do "eh" things of this scale.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:11 PM on February 24, 2016 [16 favorites]
No one can, authoritatively, answer whether you will find being a parent great, terrible, in between or something else entirely. I will say that you are still young, and your thinking may (or may not!) change over the next five years.
But realistically, how many could I actually keep up if I were a parent??
Again, this varies dramatically between people. "Easiness" of child; determination to keep up hobbies; time taken to do hobbies; number of children, and more are all variables.
My own experience: I am a parent, currently, of a four year old and a two year old. I had many active hobbies prior to children. I pursue my hobbies less aggressively now, it's true. Young children consume vast swathes of your time; so things like long distance running - a very time consuming hobby - are not something I can do at the moment. But it's not a forever thing, I have more time now than I did two years ago, for example.
The thing is, and the thing I'm not picking up in your q, is - infuriating as they can sometimes be - spending time with my children is, mostly, not a chore. I am giving something up, but I am getting a lot of joy and pleasure in return. A new, very consuming hobby: parenting, and it's my favourite hobby. I willingly give up other activity to spend more time with them because I love them and have a lot of fun with them (it can be hard, too).
One thing I've noticed as I've got older - kids or no - is a... "narrowing" I suppose of my resources. I realise more and more that I cannot have it all, cannot read it all, cannot watch it all, learn it all, work it all, etc etc etc. Chafing against this is futile; it is a condition of life, and resentment of it will lead to general unhappiness that cannot be resolved. What it does do, is give me more mindfulness with what I do achieve. I am more conscious of my decision to do something - more focused, more measured, more... decided - even if what I've decided is to watch some brain dead television.
Kids certainly thrust this realisation up on you, but it happens anyway. I also grapple with a stomach condition that - when it was bad - curtailed a lot of my activity too, and also taught me my limits.
I feel some of this vibe in your question, like you are asking this because you already feel things slipping away from you. They will continue to slip, and in great number - we stand still and time flows around us like a river. Children accelerate this process perhaps, but they do not create it.
Have you spent time with young children? Do you enjoy it, have you bonded with any kids? I think everyone tossing up children owes to themselves and any future progeny to "try out" kids first.
I'm sure you won't do this, but if you do have kids, they deserve to have a parent that is devoted to them, and prioritises them first, most of the time. Whatever you do, don't have kids and outsource the parenting - or the hardest aspects of parenting - to your partner. It's not fair for partner or children.
It's good you are thinking seriously about this. Best of luck.
posted by smoke at 2:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
But realistically, how many could I actually keep up if I were a parent??
Again, this varies dramatically between people. "Easiness" of child; determination to keep up hobbies; time taken to do hobbies; number of children, and more are all variables.
My own experience: I am a parent, currently, of a four year old and a two year old. I had many active hobbies prior to children. I pursue my hobbies less aggressively now, it's true. Young children consume vast swathes of your time; so things like long distance running - a very time consuming hobby - are not something I can do at the moment. But it's not a forever thing, I have more time now than I did two years ago, for example.
The thing is, and the thing I'm not picking up in your q, is - infuriating as they can sometimes be - spending time with my children is, mostly, not a chore. I am giving something up, but I am getting a lot of joy and pleasure in return. A new, very consuming hobby: parenting, and it's my favourite hobby. I willingly give up other activity to spend more time with them because I love them and have a lot of fun with them (it can be hard, too).
One thing I've noticed as I've got older - kids or no - is a... "narrowing" I suppose of my resources. I realise more and more that I cannot have it all, cannot read it all, cannot watch it all, learn it all, work it all, etc etc etc. Chafing against this is futile; it is a condition of life, and resentment of it will lead to general unhappiness that cannot be resolved. What it does do, is give me more mindfulness with what I do achieve. I am more conscious of my decision to do something - more focused, more measured, more... decided - even if what I've decided is to watch some brain dead television.
Kids certainly thrust this realisation up on you, but it happens anyway. I also grapple with a stomach condition that - when it was bad - curtailed a lot of my activity too, and also taught me my limits.
I feel some of this vibe in your question, like you are asking this because you already feel things slipping away from you. They will continue to slip, and in great number - we stand still and time flows around us like a river. Children accelerate this process perhaps, but they do not create it.
Have you spent time with young children? Do you enjoy it, have you bonded with any kids? I think everyone tossing up children owes to themselves and any future progeny to "try out" kids first.
I'm sure you won't do this, but if you do have kids, they deserve to have a parent that is devoted to them, and prioritises them first, most of the time. Whatever you do, don't have kids and outsource the parenting - or the hardest aspects of parenting - to your partner. It's not fair for partner or children.
It's good you are thinking seriously about this. Best of luck.
posted by smoke at 2:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [31 favorites]
My wife and I are both happily child free. The fact that it affords us more time and free money is nice, but that's not the reason we chose not to have children. It's merely a side-effect. The decision was based on what we, in our hearts, want. I think that's what you need to think about. The other stuff will work itself out.
posted by primethyme at 2:15 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by primethyme at 2:15 PM on February 24, 2016 [9 favorites]
My sister is a single mother with a full-time job. She also volunteers on a friend's political campaign, spends time with her friends, makes crafts, stays on top of the news and pop culture, and is generally very active in the community. Every weekend, she and baby girl are out and about, checking out new places and events.
I have no doubt that it's exhausting and tough, and she made sacrifices to do what she does. She lives far from family in a place with a relatively low cost of living. Sometimes things happen that she couldn't anticipate and it sucks, like when her daughter's daycare told her that they were closing in less than two weeks and she had to scramble to find a new one. And I'm sure she would like to have more time to relax. But my sister is amazing and my niece is amazing too and I don't think my sister can imagine life without her.
I'm currently expecting and part of me is concerned about not being able to keep up with hobbies, interests, friends and such postpartum. The thing is that, whether you choose to be a parent or take a new job or move to a different neighborhood, things change. That's life. I moved about a year ago from living about 0.5 miles from a good friend in one direction to the same distance in a different direction. We see each other a lot less, even though we probably live the same distance away. It's no one's fault and it's something we both want to work on but it happens.
Doors open and close all the time. If something or someone is important to you, you make it work, but that doesn't mean there's any shame in saying something isn't important to you, or just isn't important to you right now. Your relationships with your partner and friends will change if you have a kid but they'll also change with time because that's life. It's totally understandable if you decide you don't want to become a parent, or even you don't want to become a parent with this partner or at this time in your life, as long as you're honest with your partner. But I don't think not wanting things to change isn't a great reason to not have kids because things will change with time, regardless of kids. Things in your life will change if you have kids. Things in your life will change if you don't have kids. Opting out of kids doesn't mean opting out of change.
posted by kat518 at 2:16 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have no doubt that it's exhausting and tough, and she made sacrifices to do what she does. She lives far from family in a place with a relatively low cost of living. Sometimes things happen that she couldn't anticipate and it sucks, like when her daughter's daycare told her that they were closing in less than two weeks and she had to scramble to find a new one. And I'm sure she would like to have more time to relax. But my sister is amazing and my niece is amazing too and I don't think my sister can imagine life without her.
I'm currently expecting and part of me is concerned about not being able to keep up with hobbies, interests, friends and such postpartum. The thing is that, whether you choose to be a parent or take a new job or move to a different neighborhood, things change. That's life. I moved about a year ago from living about 0.5 miles from a good friend in one direction to the same distance in a different direction. We see each other a lot less, even though we probably live the same distance away. It's no one's fault and it's something we both want to work on but it happens.
Doors open and close all the time. If something or someone is important to you, you make it work, but that doesn't mean there's any shame in saying something isn't important to you, or just isn't important to you right now. Your relationships with your partner and friends will change if you have a kid but they'll also change with time because that's life. It's totally understandable if you decide you don't want to become a parent, or even you don't want to become a parent with this partner or at this time in your life, as long as you're honest with your partner. But I don't think not wanting things to change isn't a great reason to not have kids because things will change with time, regardless of kids. Things in your life will change if you have kids. Things in your life will change if you don't have kids. Opting out of kids doesn't mean opting out of change.
posted by kat518 at 2:16 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
it might do you good to read things from people who have kids and have been successful in things related to your hobbies - see how they balanced it, see how they talk about it, see how they found it possible or not. you might also see what their partners were doing with their time during all of this - was their partner basically functioning as support for them, either monetarily or by acting as a full time caregiver to the house and kids? did they have similar success in their goals? it's good to work out now how much each of you thinks you'll be contributing to all the stuff that comes with kids and make sure you're on the same page about that too.
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by nadawi at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016
Up until my early 30s I was pretty sure I wanted kids, even to the point of considering having a kid on my own, but at 37 and partnered I am solidly on the "nope" side of the fence (I'm a woman, fwiw). Here's some of my rationale:
- As more and more of my friends and family had kids, it became increasingly obvious to me that it is HARD. Harder in some situations than others, but always at least kind of hard.
- Sort of as part of the "it's hard" thing - time and money are definitely part of it.
- I also didn't want to deal with the weird gender stuff that having kids brings out in even a lot of relatively egalitarian straight couples.
- I am not comfortable with the idea of having another person's happiness and life entirely under my responsibility.
- Having kids is damn near the most un-take-backable thing you can do. You can quit the job, you can get divorced, you can sell the house, you can get sober... but you don't have the option to stop being someone's parent.
posted by mskyle at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
- As more and more of my friends and family had kids, it became increasingly obvious to me that it is HARD. Harder in some situations than others, but always at least kind of hard.
- Sort of as part of the "it's hard" thing - time and money are definitely part of it.
- I also didn't want to deal with the weird gender stuff that having kids brings out in even a lot of relatively egalitarian straight couples.
- I am not comfortable with the idea of having another person's happiness and life entirely under my responsibility.
- Having kids is damn near the most un-take-backable thing you can do. You can quit the job, you can get divorced, you can sell the house, you can get sober... but you don't have the option to stop being someone's parent.
posted by mskyle at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [19 favorites]
Best answer: I didn't see environmental concerns in your list of cons, but that's also something to consider. We're in the midst of the Holocene extinction event, losing an incredible amount of biodiversity every single day, and anthropogenic climate change is on the news almost daily. Each North American currently outputs around 20 tons of CO2-equivalent every year of their lives.
Demand for labor is also declining rapidly, with globalization as well as unprecedentedly rapid advances in efficiency driven by advances in software and automation. New jobs are being created, but not nearly as quickly as other jobs are being eliminated.
I do not mean this in a negative way nor am I using the term in a negative way, but it depends on whether you want to be inwardly focused or outwardly, selfish or serving.
I'll never understand the logic of thoughts like this. In light of the concerns I mentioned above, I honestly can't think of anything more selfish than having children, unless one does so by adopting.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
Demand for labor is also declining rapidly, with globalization as well as unprecedentedly rapid advances in efficiency driven by advances in software and automation. New jobs are being created, but not nearly as quickly as other jobs are being eliminated.
I do not mean this in a negative way nor am I using the term in a negative way, but it depends on whether you want to be inwardly focused or outwardly, selfish or serving.
I'll never understand the logic of thoughts like this. In light of the concerns I mentioned above, I honestly can't think of anything more selfish than having children, unless one does so by adopting.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [20 favorites]
A lot of it depends on your kid, your personality, and your partner's personality. I had a very difficult kid, my personality doesn't lend itself to spending 24/7 around other people, and my partner was a great dad but wasn't able to take on more than half the child care.
Having kids was the wrong choice for me... they're lovely people, but I liked the person I was before they came along much better. I had more time and energy to do a lot of things and remain curious about the world in a way I just can't now, even as my kids have gotten older (11 and 15 now). And I even like kids! I worked at summer camps before having my own! But having your own, and not sleeping for seven years straight, and never getting time to yourself because one kid is autistic and watching both kids simultaneously was dangerous at times, and day cares wouldn't take one of the kids because he never stopped crying (think how I felt at home with that!), and never having much money because their father and I both had to work only part-time to care for them... it's a massive drain. Our situation was unusually bad, but you never know what you're going to end up with. And for me personally I think even easy kid would've been hard on me.
posted by metasarah at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Having kids was the wrong choice for me... they're lovely people, but I liked the person I was before they came along much better. I had more time and energy to do a lot of things and remain curious about the world in a way I just can't now, even as my kids have gotten older (11 and 15 now). And I even like kids! I worked at summer camps before having my own! But having your own, and not sleeping for seven years straight, and never getting time to yourself because one kid is autistic and watching both kids simultaneously was dangerous at times, and day cares wouldn't take one of the kids because he never stopped crying (think how I felt at home with that!), and never having much money because their father and I both had to work only part-time to care for them... it's a massive drain. Our situation was unusually bad, but you never know what you're going to end up with. And for me personally I think even easy kid would've been hard on me.
posted by metasarah at 2:21 PM on February 24, 2016 [13 favorites]
Yes, being a parent means you will have no free time and will have to reprioritize.
But you're young and you can plan.
Before anything else you have to figure out where you are headed with your "partner." Are you committed to a lifelong relationship? Because that's what it takes to have kids.
If you're committed to the relationship, you need to ask her about her plans. "5-7 years from now" is very ambiguous. We can't predict the future that far out. Things change.
So if you get the issues of commitment and life partner figured out, the best thing you can do is plan for the future.
There is no perfect time to have a kid, but you can always get established in some endeavor first. Once a child arrives it will be very difficult to start up something new.
As a rule of thumb it take about three years to achieve success in any new endeavor.
posted by My Dad at 2:22 PM on February 24, 2016
But you're young and you can plan.
Before anything else you have to figure out where you are headed with your "partner." Are you committed to a lifelong relationship? Because that's what it takes to have kids.
If you're committed to the relationship, you need to ask her about her plans. "5-7 years from now" is very ambiguous. We can't predict the future that far out. Things change.
So if you get the issues of commitment and life partner figured out, the best thing you can do is plan for the future.
There is no perfect time to have a kid, but you can always get established in some endeavor first. Once a child arrives it will be very difficult to start up something new.
As a rule of thumb it take about three years to achieve success in any new endeavor.
posted by My Dad at 2:22 PM on February 24, 2016
It's either something you want or you don't.
It can be something you want yet understand will be incompatible with other things you want or are likely to have. It's okay to want other things, and it's smart to recognize that different people have different abilities to have children as well as a life outside of parenting. I know parents who've maintained their social lives and their hobbies, even with young children. I know others who simply didn't have the wherewithal (financial or otherwise) to invest in their lives once they had kids, and everyone involved was way worse off for it.
I grew up around a fair number of parents who didn't do anything other than work, veg out in front of the TV, occasionally read tabloids, and sleep. They had no friends because they were too exhausted to take care of their social lives. I don't know if they would have had such narrow lives if they hadn't become parents, but I'm going to guess that the stresses of parenting really winnowed down their ability to engage in their lives. If you're not absolutely sure that you won't devolve into that type of person, then perhaps parenthood isn't for you. There are people who can live fulfilling multifacted lives as parents, and there are others who can't.
posted by blerghamot at 2:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
It can be something you want yet understand will be incompatible with other things you want or are likely to have. It's okay to want other things, and it's smart to recognize that different people have different abilities to have children as well as a life outside of parenting. I know parents who've maintained their social lives and their hobbies, even with young children. I know others who simply didn't have the wherewithal (financial or otherwise) to invest in their lives once they had kids, and everyone involved was way worse off for it.
I grew up around a fair number of parents who didn't do anything other than work, veg out in front of the TV, occasionally read tabloids, and sleep. They had no friends because they were too exhausted to take care of their social lives. I don't know if they would have had such narrow lives if they hadn't become parents, but I'm going to guess that the stresses of parenting really winnowed down their ability to engage in their lives. If you're not absolutely sure that you won't devolve into that type of person, then perhaps parenthood isn't for you. There are people who can live fulfilling multifacted lives as parents, and there are others who can't.
posted by blerghamot at 2:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I never, ever, ever wanted children. Neither did my husband. We were absolutely sure. Then I found out I was really, really pregnant, and in less than a month we were parents. And after four weeks of abject terror, images of being the Manager of Bodily Fluids, and a devastated marriage, she was born. The angels sang, my life suddenly had meaning in a way that I am at a total loss to explain, and I truly knew love. I discovered patience, empathy, and delight. I found that having a baby was my secret weapon in law school, which I started when she was 10 months old and my husband was in residency and so not really available for either of us in a lot of ways. I found my humanity.
I got my law degree and did extremely well in school, and have been a part-time lawyer ever since. My work gives me great meaning which I need, in addition to the meaning I get from parenting.
I haven't stopped traveling. She goes with me everywhere and her presence opens doors that are never open to adults.
I am actually cold and wet right now having just come in from a kayak.
I cook great meals, read constantly, and spend an inordinate amount of time dorking around on the web.
My home is elegant and clean. It was never a Toys R Us crack den. There's no need for that.
Yes, I slowed down while she was an infant. But I never stopped. She's 12 now, and her life is so interesting that it matters a great deal to me, personally, to be involved in it.
We share language learning, music, art, travel. We share cooking, gardening, swimming. We share friends — some of my very best days are spent in the kitchen with my best friend, while she plays in the living room with her best friend — my best friend's daughter. Play dates are fabulous fun — for her to play with her friends, for me to have a glass of wine and chat with mine. We also all travel together, camp together, sail together, and help each other out in countless ways.
I'm going to go pick her up from school momentarily, and that too gives me great joy. It's something I *want* to do.
I am now a single mother, and although I have even less time now, having no partner to help, it's still the best part of my life. I love my child more than I love myself, and not in a selfless, cringing way. It's just the way I feel.
I would not ever, ever, ever agree with the idea that unless it's a strong Yes it's a strong No. I was an absolutely strong NO NO NO, and being a mother is the very best thing in my very rich life.
posted by Capri at 2:24 PM on February 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
I got my law degree and did extremely well in school, and have been a part-time lawyer ever since. My work gives me great meaning which I need, in addition to the meaning I get from parenting.
I haven't stopped traveling. She goes with me everywhere and her presence opens doors that are never open to adults.
I am actually cold and wet right now having just come in from a kayak.
I cook great meals, read constantly, and spend an inordinate amount of time dorking around on the web.
My home is elegant and clean. It was never a Toys R Us crack den. There's no need for that.
Yes, I slowed down while she was an infant. But I never stopped. She's 12 now, and her life is so interesting that it matters a great deal to me, personally, to be involved in it.
We share language learning, music, art, travel. We share cooking, gardening, swimming. We share friends — some of my very best days are spent in the kitchen with my best friend, while she plays in the living room with her best friend — my best friend's daughter. Play dates are fabulous fun — for her to play with her friends, for me to have a glass of wine and chat with mine. We also all travel together, camp together, sail together, and help each other out in countless ways.
I'm going to go pick her up from school momentarily, and that too gives me great joy. It's something I *want* to do.
I am now a single mother, and although I have even less time now, having no partner to help, it's still the best part of my life. I love my child more than I love myself, and not in a selfless, cringing way. It's just the way I feel.
I would not ever, ever, ever agree with the idea that unless it's a strong Yes it's a strong No. I was an absolutely strong NO NO NO, and being a mother is the very best thing in my very rich life.
posted by Capri at 2:24 PM on February 24, 2016 [50 favorites]
OK let's see if I can keep this pithy.
1. We sound pretty similar. I literally can't remember ever being bored. I always have a thousand things on my list. In addition to my job (neuroscientist), my things include: playing violin, vipassana meditation, triathlon events, hiking, reading (mostly science fiction novels and The New Yorker-style essays), drawing, learning languages, vegetarian cooking, staying current on social justice issues...
2. I was absolutely certain that I wanted a child, and I had one at 27. I am 110% thrilled with my decision. I love being a parent, it's super super SUPER important to me, and I love my son. My husband is a wonderful father and I feel very happy to have my family.
3. For the first 9 months of my son's life, I didn't do any of my hobbies. First to return was playing violin in an orchestra, and we started hiking sporadically. Then around 12 months I started reading novels again. At 15 months I started running again sporadically. At 18 months I started being able to cook fun stuff again (although it coincided with a break after finishing my PhD, which helped) and I felt much more up-to-date on what was going on in the world. We started hiking regularly. Around 21 months I could draw a bit and start swimming again.
4. I do not have time to learn languages, read as extensively as I'd like or write very much (my writing these days is mostly musings about my kid's development). I play music less than I used to. I cannot go on meditation retreats (though that will change some day) and sitting meditation gets squeezed in sometimes, but not always. Almost everything I do happens in little, well-planned bursts. HOWEVER, I keep up with what matters to me the most, in a much more focused and intense way than I used to, and I find my hobbies more fulfilling now.
5. We have no disposable income. It's not great, but I'd rather have the kid than the disposable income.
6. None of this would have been possible without an equal parent.
posted by Cygnet at 2:26 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
1. We sound pretty similar. I literally can't remember ever being bored. I always have a thousand things on my list. In addition to my job (neuroscientist), my things include: playing violin, vipassana meditation, triathlon events, hiking, reading (mostly science fiction novels and The New Yorker-style essays), drawing, learning languages, vegetarian cooking, staying current on social justice issues...
2. I was absolutely certain that I wanted a child, and I had one at 27. I am 110% thrilled with my decision. I love being a parent, it's super super SUPER important to me, and I love my son. My husband is a wonderful father and I feel very happy to have my family.
3. For the first 9 months of my son's life, I didn't do any of my hobbies. First to return was playing violin in an orchestra, and we started hiking sporadically. Then around 12 months I started reading novels again. At 15 months I started running again sporadically. At 18 months I started being able to cook fun stuff again (although it coincided with a break after finishing my PhD, which helped) and I felt much more up-to-date on what was going on in the world. We started hiking regularly. Around 21 months I could draw a bit and start swimming again.
4. I do not have time to learn languages, read as extensively as I'd like or write very much (my writing these days is mostly musings about my kid's development). I play music less than I used to. I cannot go on meditation retreats (though that will change some day) and sitting meditation gets squeezed in sometimes, but not always. Almost everything I do happens in little, well-planned bursts. HOWEVER, I keep up with what matters to me the most, in a much more focused and intense way than I used to, and I find my hobbies more fulfilling now.
5. We have no disposable income. It's not great, but I'd rather have the kid than the disposable income.
6. None of this would have been possible without an equal parent.
posted by Cygnet at 2:26 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yes, her 100% wanting children and you probably not so much is essentially THE dealbreaker. The only bigger dealbreaker is one of you enjoys serious crimes and the other doesn't.
I feel like the bar for appropriate conscious fully-consented entry into parenthood should be that you want children so strongly that you would still have them even if a genie appeared in front of you right now and told you your partner would die or the two of you would split after having them. I suspect she wouldn't miss a beat before agreeing, and you'd wonder at least for a quarter-second if her or your parents would take over for you.
You sound like you'll mostly resent the intrusion of children into your life and your relationship with her even if you're together. Which likely means you will not be enthusiastically showing up to do half the work, which means that eventually the relationship will probably end.
And if you are a man, society is going to let/pressure you to not pull your part of the load as it is. Men have an uphill battle to not ruin a relationship over lack of emotional labor and actual physical presence and participation. You don't sound up for that fight.
However, and this is a super annoying thing to hear, you're young, and if you are a man you may have been sold some overoptimistic expectations about changing the world with your career and your chances of doing so, and some underoptimistic expectations that anything less than global changes mean you are a failure. In short, you may very well end up at 40 sorry you didn't have kids, because the rewards you expected from a career didn't materialize or weren't everything you imagined. At least make sure you've tried to look at the lives of people you admire and see how they feel about parenthood and the work/life circumstances around that, just to get more info.
But bottom line is if you know in your gut you don't want to do this, or are even for a second considering telling your partner maybe in hopes of getting away with a no later, you have to end it. The former is negotiable if you want to give yourself a timeline to decide - a short timeline - but the latter is a shit garbage way to treat an enemy much less a friend, and does not fall under the umbrella of love.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I feel like the bar for appropriate conscious fully-consented entry into parenthood should be that you want children so strongly that you would still have them even if a genie appeared in front of you right now and told you your partner would die or the two of you would split after having them. I suspect she wouldn't miss a beat before agreeing, and you'd wonder at least for a quarter-second if her or your parents would take over for you.
You sound like you'll mostly resent the intrusion of children into your life and your relationship with her even if you're together. Which likely means you will not be enthusiastically showing up to do half the work, which means that eventually the relationship will probably end.
And if you are a man, society is going to let/pressure you to not pull your part of the load as it is. Men have an uphill battle to not ruin a relationship over lack of emotional labor and actual physical presence and participation. You don't sound up for that fight.
However, and this is a super annoying thing to hear, you're young, and if you are a man you may have been sold some overoptimistic expectations about changing the world with your career and your chances of doing so, and some underoptimistic expectations that anything less than global changes mean you are a failure. In short, you may very well end up at 40 sorry you didn't have kids, because the rewards you expected from a career didn't materialize or weren't everything you imagined. At least make sure you've tried to look at the lives of people you admire and see how they feel about parenthood and the work/life circumstances around that, just to get more info.
But bottom line is if you know in your gut you don't want to do this, or are even for a second considering telling your partner maybe in hopes of getting away with a no later, you have to end it. The former is negotiable if you want to give yourself a timeline to decide - a short timeline - but the latter is a shit garbage way to treat an enemy much less a friend, and does not fall under the umbrella of love.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:28 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have so many complicated feelings about this question. This topic is so personal, and honestly, offends so many people no matter what you choose. Some people feel it is selfish to have children. Some people feel it is selfish NOT to have children.
I am assuming you are not religious- neither am I. (Religious people sometimes take it as a command from God to have kids.) I honestly find it helps me to think about this as if it were science fiction or a simple biology question. I really think there has been a relatively recent cultural shift where not having kids is seen as the default and having kids is seen as more selfish. This was really not the case in our cultural past. For much of human history, not having children was an incredible luxury, yet many people managed to accomplish great things nonetheless.
Some points in defense of having kids- The overpopulation argument never really worked for me. Yes, there are a lot of people on earth. Yes, some people have "too many kids" and others don't. Purely from a scientific perspective, each adult human woman must have 2 children to keep the population steady. (Population steady, you say? Who cares? Hear me out.) This does not include women who are infertile. This does not include women who die young, or children who die young. This does not include what happens when there is a war, or plague, or sickness. So really, you need more than 2 children per woman, once you factor in those things. This is merely to survive and maintain, not to grow. Obviously, if no one has kids, the human race dies out. If you agree that this is a bad thing and that it is a worthy goal to perpetuate the human race, the question becomes, whose duty is it to actually do that? Whose duty is it to bear the kids and whose duty is it to do other things? (Have you seen the movie "Children of Men?") Now, of course, you scoff. You laugh because we live in easy times. But seriously, I think it's worth it to consider this.
There is one other way to do it- instead of every woman having 2.5 kids, some women have 4 kids and some women have 0. What happens when this occurs is that the population eventually becomes progressively more inbred. Now, this is not catastrophic or anything, but it is something to consider. Whatever town the Duggars live in? Like half of the next population of that town is going to be cousins.
Of course, the third option is that the population just declines and everyone is okay with that. We are entering that state in most of the first world now. I am fairly ambivalent about it. Some people welcome it with open arms, think we are ready to bring on the robots, etc. I am really not so sure. Quite honestly I think the world is incredibly overdue for a huge mega-disease or resistance to antibiotics any day now.
There are tons of complicated economic, social and other factors. This is like the tip of a huge iceberg. In some ways this is THE most important question you can ask and is very existential.
Obviously, if you really, really don't want to be a parent, you are probably better off leaving that to others. But so few people actually defend having kids these days, I thought it would be interesting to throw this out there. Of course, you will probably handwave and say "Overpopulation. Your point is negated." And okay, sure, that's valid. But it's a place to start thinking about it.
posted by quincunx at 2:30 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I am assuming you are not religious- neither am I. (Religious people sometimes take it as a command from God to have kids.) I honestly find it helps me to think about this as if it were science fiction or a simple biology question. I really think there has been a relatively recent cultural shift where not having kids is seen as the default and having kids is seen as more selfish. This was really not the case in our cultural past. For much of human history, not having children was an incredible luxury, yet many people managed to accomplish great things nonetheless.
Some points in defense of having kids- The overpopulation argument never really worked for me. Yes, there are a lot of people on earth. Yes, some people have "too many kids" and others don't. Purely from a scientific perspective, each adult human woman must have 2 children to keep the population steady. (Population steady, you say? Who cares? Hear me out.) This does not include women who are infertile. This does not include women who die young, or children who die young. This does not include what happens when there is a war, or plague, or sickness. So really, you need more than 2 children per woman, once you factor in those things. This is merely to survive and maintain, not to grow. Obviously, if no one has kids, the human race dies out. If you agree that this is a bad thing and that it is a worthy goal to perpetuate the human race, the question becomes, whose duty is it to actually do that? Whose duty is it to bear the kids and whose duty is it to do other things? (Have you seen the movie "Children of Men?") Now, of course, you scoff. You laugh because we live in easy times. But seriously, I think it's worth it to consider this.
There is one other way to do it- instead of every woman having 2.5 kids, some women have 4 kids and some women have 0. What happens when this occurs is that the population eventually becomes progressively more inbred. Now, this is not catastrophic or anything, but it is something to consider. Whatever town the Duggars live in? Like half of the next population of that town is going to be cousins.
Of course, the third option is that the population just declines and everyone is okay with that. We are entering that state in most of the first world now. I am fairly ambivalent about it. Some people welcome it with open arms, think we are ready to bring on the robots, etc. I am really not so sure. Quite honestly I think the world is incredibly overdue for a huge mega-disease or resistance to antibiotics any day now.
There are tons of complicated economic, social and other factors. This is like the tip of a huge iceberg. In some ways this is THE most important question you can ask and is very existential.
Obviously, if you really, really don't want to be a parent, you are probably better off leaving that to others. But so few people actually defend having kids these days, I thought it would be interesting to throw this out there. Of course, you will probably handwave and say "Overpopulation. Your point is negated." And okay, sure, that's valid. But it's a place to start thinking about it.
posted by quincunx at 2:30 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, most happiness research shows that people who have children have reduced happiness while the children are living at home... it doesn't start to approach that of child-free people until after their children are adults.
We humans are very good at making the best of situations we find ourselves in, luckily, and most of us are able to step up to the task of childraising and find joy in it... in part because once they're there, we have no other ethical choice. We're also biased to see the choices we made as the best ones for us. So taking the word of either parents or non-parents may not be all that helpful... we all have psychological reasons for advocating our own paths.
posted by metasarah at 2:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
We humans are very good at making the best of situations we find ourselves in, luckily, and most of us are able to step up to the task of childraising and find joy in it... in part because once they're there, we have no other ethical choice. We're also biased to see the choices we made as the best ones for us. So taking the word of either parents or non-parents may not be all that helpful... we all have psychological reasons for advocating our own paths.
posted by metasarah at 2:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [10 favorites]
You've been together since you were 21 and she was 22. I say give it a couple of years and revisit the idea.
Do either you or she have enough family wealth/money/job security/skills that allow you to easily get a job with good benefits---things that you could use to afford a family and manage the financial risks that come with being responsible for more than just yourself?
I don't know. My gut says you shouldn't because you might resent/blame her for your loss of freedom even if you agree to it. I guess I wouldn't be comfortable bringing a kid into that situation, unless I had family support and family money to rely on.
posted by discopolo at 2:43 PM on February 24, 2016
Do either you or she have enough family wealth/money/job security/skills that allow you to easily get a job with good benefits---things that you could use to afford a family and manage the financial risks that come with being responsible for more than just yourself?
I don't know. My gut says you shouldn't because you might resent/blame her for your loss of freedom even if you agree to it. I guess I wouldn't be comfortable bringing a kid into that situation, unless I had family support and family money to rely on.
posted by discopolo at 2:43 PM on February 24, 2016
And my PS to my comment is this: I never wanted kids, I married a man who did not want kids but would have been willing to half-ass or maybe quarter-ass it if I'd really wanted them (not his words, but that's what it would have been). Aside from some moments of "I wonder what it would have been like" (mostly I know the answer: tougher than I would have volunteered for), I have no regrets, and he has no regrets, and THAT is what matters.
I have friends, mostly women but a few men, who did eventually reach the crossroads of a mixed-inclination marriage/LTR, and it turns out that if you really really want kids, not having them is not okay. Like, mental health suffered. Like, you can't just shake that off, if you feel like a part of your being is missing.
(That's how I know I made the right choice: that feeling has never cost me a minute of sleep.)
What I've watched makes me glad I knew for sure early on and that I didn't marry someone who wanted something different in the hopes I could make everything come out my way.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have friends, mostly women but a few men, who did eventually reach the crossroads of a mixed-inclination marriage/LTR, and it turns out that if you really really want kids, not having them is not okay. Like, mental health suffered. Like, you can't just shake that off, if you feel like a part of your being is missing.
(That's how I know I made the right choice: that feeling has never cost me a minute of sleep.)
What I've watched makes me glad I knew for sure early on and that I didn't marry someone who wanted something different in the hopes I could make everything come out my way.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don’t know whether that is a deal-breaker sort of difference.
I should probably add that although she and I really want to stay together, if I conclude that I don’t want children, I’m fairly sure we will split up.
Pretty sure you just answered that part of your question. Your partner may be someone like me. I have been dreaming about having kids since I was a teen. It's not negotiable for me. If it's not for her, and you decide you don't want kids, you need to break up so that she can find someone to start a family with.
As for my experience, I'm eight months pregnant with my first and my husband, who isn't pregnant, has already lost time that he would normally spend on his hobbies taking care of me because I am so exhausted and sick. If you can't imagine mostly cheerfully giving up your hobbies to take care of someone else, I don't think parenting is for you. I do not think that makes you a selfish person.
posted by chaiminda at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I should probably add that although she and I really want to stay together, if I conclude that I don’t want children, I’m fairly sure we will split up.
Pretty sure you just answered that part of your question. Your partner may be someone like me. I have been dreaming about having kids since I was a teen. It's not negotiable for me. If it's not for her, and you decide you don't want kids, you need to break up so that she can find someone to start a family with.
As for my experience, I'm eight months pregnant with my first and my husband, who isn't pregnant, has already lost time that he would normally spend on his hobbies taking care of me because I am so exhausted and sick. If you can't imagine mostly cheerfully giving up your hobbies to take care of someone else, I don't think parenting is for you. I do not think that makes you a selfish person.
posted by chaiminda at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I decided pretty early not to have kids, mostly because I have absolutely the wrong personality (for a lot of reasons) to be a parent. A final decisive factor (in my late thirties/hitting forty) , as I've watched my peers have children, has been environmental change. I think about my friends' kids who are toddlers now, and how, if they live to be seventy-five, they'll be alive in 2090. And I think about four or five degrees celsius climate change by mid century and the inevitable, dramatic and terrible disruptions that's going to bring about, and it really makes my blood run cold. This used to be just a bit of theatrical rationalization for me five or ten years ago - "Who'd bring kids into this craaaaaaaazy world, right?" In the past few years, as climate change has started to hit, it doesn't feel like a rationalization to me anymore and I find myself really, really anxious whenever I think of my friends' kids. My dad even said to me last year - out of the blue! - that he was glad I hadn't had kids, because he felt like climate change and social disruption were going to make this no kind of world for them. Now, he's a depressive guy and pretty risk-averse, but that is not a typical position for him - he's much more usually in the "children are the life-affirming, unselfish choice!" camp.
I'm not saying that oh, of course, everyone who has kids now is condemning them to a horrible fate, who would have kids in this craaaaazy world, etc, but I think if you're on the fence about kids that's one thing to consider. It's going to be harder for kids born now than for any of us.
posted by Frowner at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not saying that oh, of course, everyone who has kids now is condemning them to a horrible fate, who would have kids in this craaaaazy world, etc, but I think if you're on the fence about kids that's one thing to consider. It's going to be harder for kids born now than for any of us.
posted by Frowner at 2:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am on the "if you don't actively want kids, you shouldn't have them" side of things.
I disagree with the assessment that this decision is either choosing to focus things inwardly or outwardly. Having children isn't necessarily selfless, and being childfree isn't selfish. I think NOT having kids frees you up to be a lot more selfless, honestly. No one asked you to procreate so taking care of your OWN children isn't exactly living focused outwardly. That being said, choosing to live a "selfish" life isn't wrong or bad. If your hobbies and profession and free time are important to you, that's totally valid and acceptable.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 2:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I disagree with the assessment that this decision is either choosing to focus things inwardly or outwardly. Having children isn't necessarily selfless, and being childfree isn't selfish. I think NOT having kids frees you up to be a lot more selfless, honestly. No one asked you to procreate so taking care of your OWN children isn't exactly living focused outwardly. That being said, choosing to live a "selfish" life isn't wrong or bad. If your hobbies and profession and free time are important to you, that's totally valid and acceptable.
posted by masquesoporfavor at 2:49 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'll come at this from a slightly different angle, I guess.. Which is that I didn't want children At. All. Period. Anywhere in my life, at all. Until I fell head over heels for a man with two of his own. I am a 27 year old woman, with hobbies and a career and a life and things to do and places to go.
Up until I met his kids, at the time four (boy) and seven (girl), I had only ever registered children as small screeching time sinks. Some of them still are to me, mostly babies, but these two are not at all! And I love them so much! Sometimes I think I like them even more than their dad. I like reading to them, teaching them to cook, I like that I get to be the one who introduced them to Bill Nye and teach them to knit and paint and I get to watch their brains learn to read and register spacial reasoning skills better and better every week! It's crazy!
I have not necessarily decided on having my own children yet or when or how. That is a complicated question given where me and the mister are in our own lives, and how I feel about the state of the world at large. But I am no longer under the assumption that kids are massive time and resource sinks. I am so happy I have these small people in my life that I get to help grow up. It's completely different for me since I met them and got to know them.
Is it possible for you to get to know a child? Perhaps one around 6-8. See what they are like to interact with after they learn a little bit of autonomy. It will help you to know in your gut what is right for you.
posted by teslacoilswoah at 2:51 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Up until I met his kids, at the time four (boy) and seven (girl), I had only ever registered children as small screeching time sinks. Some of them still are to me, mostly babies, but these two are not at all! And I love them so much! Sometimes I think I like them even more than their dad. I like reading to them, teaching them to cook, I like that I get to be the one who introduced them to Bill Nye and teach them to knit and paint and I get to watch their brains learn to read and register spacial reasoning skills better and better every week! It's crazy!
I have not necessarily decided on having my own children yet or when or how. That is a complicated question given where me and the mister are in our own lives, and how I feel about the state of the world at large. But I am no longer under the assumption that kids are massive time and resource sinks. I am so happy I have these small people in my life that I get to help grow up. It's completely different for me since I met them and got to know them.
Is it possible for you to get to know a child? Perhaps one around 6-8. See what they are like to interact with after they learn a little bit of autonomy. It will help you to know in your gut what is right for you.
posted by teslacoilswoah at 2:51 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Honestly, you will have less time for your interests and hobbies. The degree to which that's true will depend on a variety of factors (# of kids, how difficult they are, your work hours, and division of labor with spouse), but your basic insight is right. When I was single and childless, I was doing things like home brewing and trying to learn German. That's no longer true. I still manage to read a lot about things that interest me and I've kept up my cross-country skiing and running, but I have to make real efforts to find the time including waking up before everyone else in the house.
I also am more constrained in my career choices. I can't move around willy-nilly because I figure kids need stability and I need a larger paycheck than would otherwise be the case.
For me, the tradeoff was totally worth it because I find having and raising children rewarding. It is frequently stressful and I love it when I get a break, but it is meaningful work. I don't know whether or not you'll have that same experience. The tough thing is that not everyone does. One way I knew that it would be a good fit for me was that I loved being an uncle. Do you have relatives or close friends with kids with whom you've spent a meaningful amount of time?
posted by Area Man at 3:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I also am more constrained in my career choices. I can't move around willy-nilly because I figure kids need stability and I need a larger paycheck than would otherwise be the case.
For me, the tradeoff was totally worth it because I find having and raising children rewarding. It is frequently stressful and I love it when I get a break, but it is meaningful work. I don't know whether or not you'll have that same experience. The tough thing is that not everyone does. One way I knew that it would be a good fit for me was that I loved being an uncle. Do you have relatives or close friends with kids with whom you've spent a meaningful amount of time?
posted by Area Man at 3:05 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a toddler, so this is coming from that perspective and may not be as fully informed as advice from someone with an older kid.
Having a child, particularly a very young one, will crunch your time in all sorts of unexpected ways. It's not always efficiently divided or scheduled: you may have four hours blocked off every day for naptime because your kid falls asleep between 12 and 1 and sleeps for one to three hours and it's anyone's guess what you'll get today. Things like exercise, your commute, making dinner, your share of household maintenance (note: having a fuller schedule is not an excuse to stick your partner with all the chores) will all take up little bits of time. You may need some of that precious free time to recover (nap, have a drink, space out). Even if you have the time for other activities, you might not have the energy or enthusiasm to pursue them anymore. The silver lining, I guess, is that you may be too preoccupied to care? Yeah, that doesn't sound like a silver lining.
I love my kid and am immensely thrilled and grateful to have him in my life, so I hope this doesn't sound wrong, but: not having kids was pretty great, too. Being a parent is amazing in a different way, but infinity plus one is still infinity, know what I mean? Both choices are good and can lead to a happy, full life.
I think you're asking yourself the right questions and it's good that you're thinking about this in advance. Your instinct is right: you can't make all of this fit.
And, you know, you might absolutely love parenting. You might find it worth the commitment and sacrifice. Not having a strong desire for kids doesn't mean you wouldn't love your own kids. But I get the sense that you don't feel strongly about kids in the same way that you feel strongly about so much else in your life. Very few people have both passion for something and the time and means to pursue that passion, and it's perfectly fine and good to want to keep that in your life.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Having a child, particularly a very young one, will crunch your time in all sorts of unexpected ways. It's not always efficiently divided or scheduled: you may have four hours blocked off every day for naptime because your kid falls asleep between 12 and 1 and sleeps for one to three hours and it's anyone's guess what you'll get today. Things like exercise, your commute, making dinner, your share of household maintenance (note: having a fuller schedule is not an excuse to stick your partner with all the chores) will all take up little bits of time. You may need some of that precious free time to recover (nap, have a drink, space out). Even if you have the time for other activities, you might not have the energy or enthusiasm to pursue them anymore. The silver lining, I guess, is that you may be too preoccupied to care? Yeah, that doesn't sound like a silver lining.
I love my kid and am immensely thrilled and grateful to have him in my life, so I hope this doesn't sound wrong, but: not having kids was pretty great, too. Being a parent is amazing in a different way, but infinity plus one is still infinity, know what I mean? Both choices are good and can lead to a happy, full life.
I think you're asking yourself the right questions and it's good that you're thinking about this in advance. Your instinct is right: you can't make all of this fit.
And, you know, you might absolutely love parenting. You might find it worth the commitment and sacrifice. Not having a strong desire for kids doesn't mean you wouldn't love your own kids. But I get the sense that you don't feel strongly about kids in the same way that you feel strongly about so much else in your life. Very few people have both passion for something and the time and means to pursue that passion, and it's perfectly fine and good to want to keep that in your life.
posted by Metroid Baby at 3:13 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I was 26, I didn't really want kids strongly at all. When I was 27, I decided, yeah, I do kind of want them eventually, but omg not any time soon. Around the time I was 30 all my friends had started having kids so I thought "hey guess it's time" and now I have a 15 month old. Your feelings on it can and will change as you age, change life circumstances, change priorities, etc. Or maybe they won't! That might happen too and that's okay! I'm just saying that at 26, ambivalence and indifference (rather than outright OH GOD NO) can really go either way in the next few years.
I had a wonderful decade in my 20s of doing whatever the hell I wanted, traveling a lot for work and, when I could afford it, for fun, being a total workaholic and enjoying my career, and doing a bunch of stuff on the side. (My "hobby" is coaching high school robotics teams and/or running the competition events) Now that I have a kid, we travel less, but mostly because my husband's current work schedule isn't amenable to doing it more, but we do travel - we've taken her trans-Pacific twice already, we're doing two more international trips in the next six months, plus we did a camping road trip over a long weekend when she was about 10 months. Some things change - no more zonking out with my noise canceling headphones and a couple glasses of wine on a long flight, and daily activities have to be better planned to enable naps and frequent meals to avoid meltdowns - but we do it, and she's pretty chill about it. We still go out to dinner - earlier in the evening than we normally would, and occasionally with one of us having to finish a meal alone while the other takes her outside to run around and make noise, but we go! I still coach my high school robotics teams and volunteer at the events, and mini Olinerd comes with me to all the meetings and all the competitions, where she's learning things like "yes, you have to wear your safety glasses; don't make me strap them to your head" and "no, get that bolt out of your mouth" but having her hasn't stopped me from doing this stuff. Is it harder? Yes. Is it less convenient than it used to be? Oh god yes. But I do it!
And it's not my cup of tea, but my sister-in-law has a son about a year older than mine and she has him at political rallies and protests happily holding signs and chanting with the crowd almost every weekend. It's what she's passionate about, and he hasn't stopped her from doing it.
An equal partner, and/or a strong social support network, is really something you need. No one of you should bear the entire burden of childcare if you both want to maintain some of your "old" life. So if you're going into saying "Sure, I'll donate some sperm, but it's up to her to stay home/change all the diapers/whatever," that's pretty shitty. You both need to be committed to giving the other some time and energy to pursue things they care about, whether that's volunteer work, or paid work, or just going out with friends once a week.
So yes, life will change, and things will not be as convenient as they are now, by any means, even if you have the world's easiest baby. But it doesn't mean you have to stop doing everything you love to do... you just have to learn to do it in a way that fits in with your new life, and see it not as "this kid ruined everything" but as the natural reshuffling of time, priorities, and resources that happen throughout your life.
posted by olinerd at 3:26 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I had a wonderful decade in my 20s of doing whatever the hell I wanted, traveling a lot for work and, when I could afford it, for fun, being a total workaholic and enjoying my career, and doing a bunch of stuff on the side. (My "hobby" is coaching high school robotics teams and/or running the competition events) Now that I have a kid, we travel less, but mostly because my husband's current work schedule isn't amenable to doing it more, but we do travel - we've taken her trans-Pacific twice already, we're doing two more international trips in the next six months, plus we did a camping road trip over a long weekend when she was about 10 months. Some things change - no more zonking out with my noise canceling headphones and a couple glasses of wine on a long flight, and daily activities have to be better planned to enable naps and frequent meals to avoid meltdowns - but we do it, and she's pretty chill about it. We still go out to dinner - earlier in the evening than we normally would, and occasionally with one of us having to finish a meal alone while the other takes her outside to run around and make noise, but we go! I still coach my high school robotics teams and volunteer at the events, and mini Olinerd comes with me to all the meetings and all the competitions, where she's learning things like "yes, you have to wear your safety glasses; don't make me strap them to your head" and "no, get that bolt out of your mouth" but having her hasn't stopped me from doing this stuff. Is it harder? Yes. Is it less convenient than it used to be? Oh god yes. But I do it!
And it's not my cup of tea, but my sister-in-law has a son about a year older than mine and she has him at political rallies and protests happily holding signs and chanting with the crowd almost every weekend. It's what she's passionate about, and he hasn't stopped her from doing it.
An equal partner, and/or a strong social support network, is really something you need. No one of you should bear the entire burden of childcare if you both want to maintain some of your "old" life. So if you're going into saying "Sure, I'll donate some sperm, but it's up to her to stay home/change all the diapers/whatever," that's pretty shitty. You both need to be committed to giving the other some time and energy to pursue things they care about, whether that's volunteer work, or paid work, or just going out with friends once a week.
So yes, life will change, and things will not be as convenient as they are now, by any means, even if you have the world's easiest baby. But it doesn't mean you have to stop doing everything you love to do... you just have to learn to do it in a way that fits in with your new life, and see it not as "this kid ruined everything" but as the natural reshuffling of time, priorities, and resources that happen throughout your life.
posted by olinerd at 3:26 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is a really personal decision, obviously, but I think that you need to be prepared for things not to go as planned. Of course, there are many parents who have hobbies, and who participate in them regularly. But there are also parents who have kids who have special and intense needs. These two categories aren't totally separate, but are you prepared to give up at least part of your current identity to be that dad? Because you need to be.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:43 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:43 PM on February 24, 2016 [6 favorites]
One question is how much you can get the same enjoyments in different ways with kids. E.g., talking with kids definitely requires empathic communication. Watching them learn to talk, and communicating with them in the meantime (baby sign language) are both "other language" kinds of things, and you could send them to a bilingual school and learn (French) while they do. You may not need badminton for exercise, or you may well be able to have your partner watch the kids for those two hours.
Just one line of thought to explore.
posted by salvia at 3:55 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Just one line of thought to explore.
posted by salvia at 3:55 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
My husband and I have been together since we were about your ages and we're now in our 40's. I really hit the jackpot with bio family: great parents with whom I still have fantastic relationships and a sister who I'm very close to. I grew up wanting a family by default. My parents were relatively late to the parenting thing after about 8 years of marriage and so I gave myself some breathing room to get started. Partner is also quite into kids and was on-board with having them.
However, as we went along, we realized that both of us could go either way. We were ready for the extreme sacrifice of parenthood (I do know people for whom kids didn't impact their active lives much, but to say they're the minority in my friend group is a radical understatement - most parents I know have very little discretionary time and are busy in a way that is exhausting) or we were ready for a life without children of our own. We ended up coming down on the side of no kids and we're both very happy with that decision. We're an enthusiastic Aunt/Uncle pair who are free to babysit and help with the kids in our friend/family group and get lots of kid time. But, we also are able to travel freely, indulge in lots of activities and interests that aren't kid-oriented, and we get to do things like sleep-in on weekends! We also have lots of time to devote to one another.
When having kids, you also have to be prepared for a non-ideal and often, unexpected, outcome like having your spouse leave you widowed, or having a child with extensive special needs that will take all of your time and attention for many years past the norm. Are you ready for that possibility? It's an outcome that you should give some consideration to.
I'm also of the mind that if you don't deeply desire children in a way that can't be satisfied another way, don't have them. It's not fair to a kid to have a parent that's not 100% enthusiastic about being a parent. The question isn't really whether you could pull it off, but whether it's something that you absolutely want. If your partner already knows she's in the absolutely want category and you aren't, you should consider it a deal-breaker. Women have fertility constraints (as do men), and it's unfair to chew up the time she needs to find a partner who wants kids as much as she does.
You may want to consider spending more time with kids and their parents. Get a close-up look at the realities. It could really help you decide which side you want to come down on.
posted by quince at 4:02 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
However, as we went along, we realized that both of us could go either way. We were ready for the extreme sacrifice of parenthood (I do know people for whom kids didn't impact their active lives much, but to say they're the minority in my friend group is a radical understatement - most parents I know have very little discretionary time and are busy in a way that is exhausting) or we were ready for a life without children of our own. We ended up coming down on the side of no kids and we're both very happy with that decision. We're an enthusiastic Aunt/Uncle pair who are free to babysit and help with the kids in our friend/family group and get lots of kid time. But, we also are able to travel freely, indulge in lots of activities and interests that aren't kid-oriented, and we get to do things like sleep-in on weekends! We also have lots of time to devote to one another.
When having kids, you also have to be prepared for a non-ideal and often, unexpected, outcome like having your spouse leave you widowed, or having a child with extensive special needs that will take all of your time and attention for many years past the norm. Are you ready for that possibility? It's an outcome that you should give some consideration to.
I'm also of the mind that if you don't deeply desire children in a way that can't be satisfied another way, don't have them. It's not fair to a kid to have a parent that's not 100% enthusiastic about being a parent. The question isn't really whether you could pull it off, but whether it's something that you absolutely want. If your partner already knows she's in the absolutely want category and you aren't, you should consider it a deal-breaker. Women have fertility constraints (as do men), and it's unfair to chew up the time she needs to find a partner who wants kids as much as she does.
You may want to consider spending more time with kids and their parents. Get a close-up look at the realities. It could really help you decide which side you want to come down on.
posted by quince at 4:02 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Talk to your partner about what you both want your life with kids to look like. This varies a lot among families, and it will change once you know your specific kids, but a lot of your concerns could be best answered by her / you together. IME, it becomes clear if you want to raise kids with someone really quickly once you start talking about your values, schooling, parenting philosophy.
posted by momus_window at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by momus_window at 4:32 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have a friend* in a very similar situation. She recently confided that she's pretty sure her boyfriend's foot-dragging is a "soft no" (or at least a "yes, but when I'm 40"), and he's moving from their shared city in a month, and she's not going with him. He wants to be long-distance and she agreed but said she's not exactly going to NOT be thinking about whether the being-alone energy makes her feel free again.
Do you have any nephews or nieces? Do you like them? Do you like spending time with them? Could you imagine taking care of them 24/7 as part of your life? If the answer is preeeeetty much no, I'd be at least upfront with your girlfriend that you can't commit to a yes within the timeframe she (reasonably) expects.
*SERIOUSLY
posted by stoneandstar at 4:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do you have any nephews or nieces? Do you like them? Do you like spending time with them? Could you imagine taking care of them 24/7 as part of your life? If the answer is preeeeetty much no, I'd be at least upfront with your girlfriend that you can't commit to a yes within the timeframe she (reasonably) expects.
*SERIOUSLY
posted by stoneandstar at 4:45 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have always been a person with a ton of hobbies, very driven by learning new things and experiencing new challenges. I spent my 20's pursuing several serious hobbies, and pushing myself to excel at them.
And then in my early thirties they started to lose their luster. I was looking for something new, and nothing was the right thing. I got married, my husband and I moved about 1,000 miles away, and nothing was scratching that itch. I didn't have "baby rabies" or anything, I was just hungry for something really substantial and challenging in my life. Now we are pregnant with triplets and couldn't be more excited.
posted by antimony at 4:51 PM on February 24, 2016
And then in my early thirties they started to lose their luster. I was looking for something new, and nothing was the right thing. I got married, my husband and I moved about 1,000 miles away, and nothing was scratching that itch. I didn't have "baby rabies" or anything, I was just hungry for something really substantial and challenging in my life. Now we are pregnant with triplets and couldn't be more excited.
posted by antimony at 4:51 PM on February 24, 2016
One way to think about this is as two separate issues: Do you want to be a parent? Yes/No. THEN make a list of issues, sit down, and creative problem-solve as much as possible. Taking the long view*, all your concerns could be addressed one way or another - where there's a will there's a way. The question then becomes, can you find solutions you agree on that work for both of you?
*There is definitely a period during babyhood where you're not doing much else - it passes.
Another thing you might discuss is how many kids. So often it's framed as none or multiple. For many of the reasons you give, we have ONE. We get the experience of being parents and of being a family, while also having more time and flexibility and money than parents with multiple kids. It's a good balance for us.
Sharing my interests and hobbies with my kid has been great fun.
posted by jrobin276 at 5:01 PM on February 24, 2016
*There is definitely a period during babyhood where you're not doing much else - it passes.
Another thing you might discuss is how many kids. So often it's framed as none or multiple. For many of the reasons you give, we have ONE. We get the experience of being parents and of being a family, while also having more time and flexibility and money than parents with multiple kids. It's a good balance for us.
Sharing my interests and hobbies with my kid has been great fun.
posted by jrobin276 at 5:01 PM on February 24, 2016
I don't know many people who genuinely regret having (adopting, step-parenting, etc.) kids. There are momentary regrets, as with virtually any endeavor, and those regrets tend to fade with the moments that bring them into focus.
It's a simplistic answer, but note that you can integrate your kids into your interests. It's safe to say that this is something that people tend to report as strong influences from their upbringing--parents who cultivated interests and hobbies in their kids. You're into language and languages; teach your kid(s) a second language, or learn a new one with them, while they're in that evanescent period of utter brain plasticity. You like badminton; teach your kid(s) badminton, establish a family tradition that involves the game. And so on.
I look back on my parents' parenting with fondness and respect, especially now that I'm a (step)parent. My parents had me camping so much I felt like I lived in a tent. Even during my teenage years of being insufferable and focused more on video games and music, we still went camping. I loved and love everything about camping, and the skills you learn in the process, and now I'm passing that on to my own brood. That sort of thing means a lot when you have a momentary regret (man, I can't believe I'm missing the Bowie drag tribute night at Oasis because the boys have a sleepover that night) that you can couch in a much grander recognition of your parent-child relationship (but man, the weekend after we're going camping in Big Sur again and they are PUMPED).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:02 PM on February 24, 2016
It's a simplistic answer, but note that you can integrate your kids into your interests. It's safe to say that this is something that people tend to report as strong influences from their upbringing--parents who cultivated interests and hobbies in their kids. You're into language and languages; teach your kid(s) a second language, or learn a new one with them, while they're in that evanescent period of utter brain plasticity. You like badminton; teach your kid(s) badminton, establish a family tradition that involves the game. And so on.
I look back on my parents' parenting with fondness and respect, especially now that I'm a (step)parent. My parents had me camping so much I felt like I lived in a tent. Even during my teenage years of being insufferable and focused more on video games and music, we still went camping. I loved and love everything about camping, and the skills you learn in the process, and now I'm passing that on to my own brood. That sort of thing means a lot when you have a momentary regret (man, I can't believe I'm missing the Bowie drag tribute night at Oasis because the boys have a sleepover that night) that you can couch in a much grander recognition of your parent-child relationship (but man, the weekend after we're going camping in Big Sur again and they are PUMPED).
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 5:02 PM on February 24, 2016
Yeah, it's really unlikely you'll have much time to yourself for quite a while. I agree that you probably can't really do a cost anlaysis on this, but it's kind of an interesting proposition to try, so in that spirit here are some REALLY RANDOM numbers that I just made up (this is mostly for 0-3 since that's my area of experience):
What might be helpful to note is that there really is a pretty substantial increase in all "costs" when you go from one child to more than one, possibly increased by proximity in age.
Something useful to think about and talk about with your girlfriend might be not just whether kids, but how many. Honestly given your description it seems like even if you could get on board with one child, I think the needs of more than one would be difficult to align with you're expectations and goals. How many kids does your girlfriend want?
And nthing that it's great that you are thinking about this now because it absolutely will be better for both of you to clarify this as soon as you can.
posted by pennypiper at 5:07 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
- If you have one kid (which in hindsight seems blissfully idle compared to two), a really really rough random estimate might be 4 hours a week - assuming you each take kiddo for half of a weekend day leaving the other free time, and the other weekend day is spent as a family, doing chores and errands.
- With two kids, I'd say more like four hours a months with intermittent spacing.
- There's also after bed time during the week which, once chores are done can leave 30-90 minutes depending on how much sleep you need. From 0-3 years kids average 9-12 hours a night (non-continuous, there will be "night parenting"), so you can sort of think about how that might play out. Also if there's more than one, their schedules may not line up so you're unlikely to "get" the full 9-12 to "work" with.
- The time estimates are based on an equal distribution of labor. If you offload more of this onto your spouse then you may have more free time, but that will come at a cost to your partner. In that case you might want to also add in time and cost for couples therapy. I'm not being snarky, it's hard to keep things balanced, and the pressure even within well meaning, loving relationships can show the cracks.
- For cost, assuming you're in an average cost of living place, you could estimate day care at about $1000-1200 a month (but be aware it may be closer to $2000 depending on where you are) PER CHILD. Plus roughly $100 a month for baby essentials, and maybe $200 a month for "we're too tired to be frugal" incidentals and copays and such.
What might be helpful to note is that there really is a pretty substantial increase in all "costs" when you go from one child to more than one, possibly increased by proximity in age.
Something useful to think about and talk about with your girlfriend might be not just whether kids, but how many. Honestly given your description it seems like even if you could get on board with one child, I think the needs of more than one would be difficult to align with you're expectations and goals. How many kids does your girlfriend want?
And nthing that it's great that you are thinking about this now because it absolutely will be better for both of you to clarify this as soon as you can.
posted by pennypiper at 5:07 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even in your list of positive sides, you didn't touch the relevant questions, which are:
1. Do you like children?
2. Do you, generally speaking, feel an affinity and affection for your own blood relatives, even those who don't share your particular interests or level of intelligence?
All the stuff you talked about is nice, much of it is true for me (in broad outline -- not the badminton part) but none of it is the reason why I don't have kids. the reason is because my answers to those questions are 1. not really, and 2. fuck no. If I were a man, I would be happy to be persuaded to change my mind because a woman would be doing all the horrible and hard parts. However, I shouldn't even if that were the case, because of those two questions.
I don’t know whether that is a deal-breaker sort of difference
It ought to be, but it might not be. If you're correct about what each of you values, she'll give up this hope and dream out of allegiance to the most important thing in her value system, which is you, her already existing family. You don't give up your living real family for imaginary people who aren't even alive and might never be, if family's your true center. Same as you don't renounce your parents and go find new ones just because you always wanted siblings and they didn't give you any.
But in fact, children are not just family, they are a long-term creative project and one that constitutes a career for anyone doing most of the work of raising them. So if she chooses the possibility of children over the reality of you, you will know that what she actually values is this dream of a working, contributing life, more than her (personal family) relationship with you, you'll have that in common. For whatever kind of consolation that may be.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. Do you like children?
2. Do you, generally speaking, feel an affinity and affection for your own blood relatives, even those who don't share your particular interests or level of intelligence?
All the stuff you talked about is nice, much of it is true for me (in broad outline -- not the badminton part) but none of it is the reason why I don't have kids. the reason is because my answers to those questions are 1. not really, and 2. fuck no. If I were a man, I would be happy to be persuaded to change my mind because a woman would be doing all the horrible and hard parts. However, I shouldn't even if that were the case, because of those two questions.
I don’t know whether that is a deal-breaker sort of difference
It ought to be, but it might not be. If you're correct about what each of you values, she'll give up this hope and dream out of allegiance to the most important thing in her value system, which is you, her already existing family. You don't give up your living real family for imaginary people who aren't even alive and might never be, if family's your true center. Same as you don't renounce your parents and go find new ones just because you always wanted siblings and they didn't give you any.
But in fact, children are not just family, they are a long-term creative project and one that constitutes a career for anyone doing most of the work of raising them. So if she chooses the possibility of children over the reality of you, you will know that what she actually values is this dream of a working, contributing life, more than her (personal family) relationship with you, you'll have that in common. For whatever kind of consolation that may be.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:23 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. Are you ok looking back on your life as a 70 year old man and never having had kids? Or will you feel that you missed something?
2. Borrow a friends high maintenance dog for a month to see how well you handle the responsibility. Or foster a kitten.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:37 PM on February 24, 2016
2. Borrow a friends high maintenance dog for a month to see how well you handle the responsibility. Or foster a kitten.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 5:37 PM on February 24, 2016
I don't have kids, hadn't ever thought about it, or connected that possibility with a vision of my life, until maybe a couple of years ago. Lots of good reasons noted against it here and elsewhere. They're not cheap. They wear people out. From report from friends (and observation, or lack thereof - haven't seen a bunch of people in ages), it does seem that you could count on 5-7 years going to childrearing / sleep deprivation. Yes, it's a crapshoot, you might wind up with a little jock or jockette, or someone surly, or hyper, and have no idea what to do with that (if you're not like that). Any odd medical thing could happen. The emotional investment doesn't seem to yield "happiness" so much as "reward" and "satisfaction", if it happens.
Reasons for (all mostly selfish, imo, and no less valid for it, pure altruism being overrated and probably impossible): I saw someone here, recently (grateful if that person could identify themselves), talking about this, and it's something I've realized lately is very true - things can get dark, at midlife and beyond. Because, as this person observed, everyone you know gets sick and dies, sooner or later. Things can get very dark indeed, with all those witnesses and companions and family members going, one after another. Children - if you're lucky, I suppose, one never knows - can bring brightness to those dimming days. Fresh eyes, discovery, joy, wonder, love. You have the honour of being a steward for that little light, helping them shape, discover, become themselves... Seems like something to watch a consciousness unfold, I think it would be a marvel. Maybe a little piece of you or your view or manner will be carried on through their actions or memories. Maybe they'll do kind things and make their bit of the world slightly better. Having a kid is a hopeful thing to do.
Also, and I know I'm not speaking from a place of 24/7 low-level stress, just from occasional interactions - they appear to be mostly hilarious.
[I know I am probably romanticizing things a lot.]
This only came to me when it was pretty late, so it's doubtful (but not impossible) that I could be a genetic parent (might time out on adoption too, I am just looking into that possibility). But you have plenty of time. I think if you have whatever kinds of oats to sow, maybe you should. Lots of ambitious people eventually tire of their hobbies and occupations, and find themselves (despite their younger selves) leaning towards domestic pleasures, at some point. But unless that's happening now, yes, be clear with your partner about your feelings, because she's on the clock, and she's ready.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:54 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Reasons for (all mostly selfish, imo, and no less valid for it, pure altruism being overrated and probably impossible): I saw someone here, recently (grateful if that person could identify themselves), talking about this, and it's something I've realized lately is very true - things can get dark, at midlife and beyond. Because, as this person observed, everyone you know gets sick and dies, sooner or later. Things can get very dark indeed, with all those witnesses and companions and family members going, one after another. Children - if you're lucky, I suppose, one never knows - can bring brightness to those dimming days. Fresh eyes, discovery, joy, wonder, love. You have the honour of being a steward for that little light, helping them shape, discover, become themselves... Seems like something to watch a consciousness unfold, I think it would be a marvel. Maybe a little piece of you or your view or manner will be carried on through their actions or memories. Maybe they'll do kind things and make their bit of the world slightly better. Having a kid is a hopeful thing to do.
Also, and I know I'm not speaking from a place of 24/7 low-level stress, just from occasional interactions - they appear to be mostly hilarious.
[I know I am probably romanticizing things a lot.]
This only came to me when it was pretty late, so it's doubtful (but not impossible) that I could be a genetic parent (might time out on adoption too, I am just looking into that possibility). But you have plenty of time. I think if you have whatever kinds of oats to sow, maybe you should. Lots of ambitious people eventually tire of their hobbies and occupations, and find themselves (despite their younger selves) leaning towards domestic pleasures, at some point. But unless that's happening now, yes, be clear with your partner about your feelings, because she's on the clock, and she's ready.
posted by cotton dress sock at 5:54 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's pretty much impossible to explain what being a parent actually feels like. I think that most parents will report an intense love for a child that is unlike anything they've ever experienced (though this doesn't happen with every single person). I was on the fence about having kids, leaning toward no since I didn't really like children then. I accidentally got pregnant while in college and kept the baby and then had a second. I was married when I got pregnant, but I got divorced and was a single parent for years. If you were looking at my life dispassionately and doing a cost/benefit analysis, you could easily say that having children ruined my life. I had to drop out of a very competitive graduate program because I just couldn't manage that and being a single parent. I'm nearing retirement with mountains of student debt still remaining from the graduate program as well as other debt because there was just never enough money to meet our living expenses. I ended up stuck in a career that I don't like. I wasn't able to really start seriously pursuing my own interests until I was near 50 (I had wanted to be a writer since I was 5 - yes, some people manage it with children, but I couldn't). And yet I would say without hesitation that having children is the best thing that ever happened to me. I love them with an intensity that I didn't know existed before I had them. I didn't really like kids in general, but it turned out that I adored my kids. There is absolutely nothing in the world I would trade their existence for, though it would have been easier if I'd had them later. The hardest part about my life now is that they both live far away and I don't see them enough (we get along well, and they both want me to move closer to them - right now I can't afford to because of the debt).
What I'm trying to say is that there is an emotional component that you just can't analyze if you don't actually have children. Think of it this way. If you were single and were trying to figure out whether a relationship was a good idea, you could think of lots of disadvantages. Relationships take time, so you have less time for your hobbies. There are inevitably conflicts, and you have to make compromises. You may have to deal with relatives you don't care for. Your spouse could become disabled, so that you end up being the only wage earner and have to become another adult's primary caretaker. Yet with all of those disadvantages, you somehow decide it's worth it, and that has everything to do with who that person is and your emotional connection.
Of course, with being a parent, you don't meet your child in advance. Once the child is there, it's there. And unlike with a relationship, you can't just decide you're going to quit (well - my ex-husband sort of did). So it's definitely a leap. But the main thing I'm trying to say is that an impartial analysis is not going to give you a "right" answer, and neither is anyone here. There are no guarantees about how you'll feel in fifty years about having or not having children. You seem to want to be sure you're not making a mistake - and I don't blame you. But the thing is you just can't know.
posted by FencingGal at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
What I'm trying to say is that there is an emotional component that you just can't analyze if you don't actually have children. Think of it this way. If you were single and were trying to figure out whether a relationship was a good idea, you could think of lots of disadvantages. Relationships take time, so you have less time for your hobbies. There are inevitably conflicts, and you have to make compromises. You may have to deal with relatives you don't care for. Your spouse could become disabled, so that you end up being the only wage earner and have to become another adult's primary caretaker. Yet with all of those disadvantages, you somehow decide it's worth it, and that has everything to do with who that person is and your emotional connection.
Of course, with being a parent, you don't meet your child in advance. Once the child is there, it's there. And unlike with a relationship, you can't just decide you're going to quit (well - my ex-husband sort of did). So it's definitely a leap. But the main thing I'm trying to say is that an impartial analysis is not going to give you a "right" answer, and neither is anyone here. There are no guarantees about how you'll feel in fifty years about having or not having children. You seem to want to be sure you're not making a mistake - and I don't blame you. But the thing is you just can't know.
posted by FencingGal at 6:12 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
We decided against it for ethical reasons. Any spare time or resources we have are dedicated to our cats and will be dedicated to subsequent cats. On top of that we consider new children an unacceptable burden on an already woefully overburdened planet.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:16 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:16 PM on February 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
It sounds to me that you don't want kids right now, and that's okay. I think your partner deserves to know you're uncertain. Two small, but maybe interesting factors to consider: some parenting experts specifically recommend that parents should have hobbies. That's it's good for kids to see a parent pursue interests and model how to enjoy new activities. Of course parents' time for hobbies is more limited, but it's not nonexistent. Also, little kids go to bed really early! I didn't know this before. My spouse and I often find ourselves at 7:30 pm with 2 kids asleep and free time on our hands. Now I use this time to decompress, chat with my friends, do housework or have sex, but in theory I could play badminton or learn a new language. I think it's the middle school years when kids are playing sports or need rides to after-school stuff, have weekend tournaments, etc that get really busy. I'm not to that phase yet, but I've noticed those years seem especially intense.
posted by areaperson at 6:26 PM on February 24, 2016
posted by areaperson at 6:26 PM on February 24, 2016
I never considered having a child essential to my life-vision, but my partner did and I wasn't strongly opposed. Now the baby is almost eight months old, I adore her beyond all sense (not more than anything/one else ever, but still awfully special) and I very much look forward to her growing and developing into a person. I'm also done. I very nearly asked if they could do a hysterectomy at the same time as the c-section, and now I wish I had because the thought of another pregnancy and child horrifies me. I strongly feel that it would ruin my life. But having our child was definitely good and right, even though I wasn't sure!
Some people find it kind of befuddling that such love and such a conviction can exist alongside one another, and I've seen lots of AskMe answers that say kids aren't something you can compromise on, but... we have. It's working out fantastically, and I can see my life opening back up for hobbies and intellectual pursuits as the baby gets older and is less dependent upon me for her continued existence. For the meanwhile, honestly there's so much to learn and observe that the whole pregnancy and infanthood have been delightful intellectual experiences in their own rights. Outside of that, currently I read books and keep up on news/activism while she naps, and we bring her to meetings and social gatherings all the time. A couple of months back I ran a major charity project with her tied to my chest most of the time and although people boggled at us, it really wasn't a problem. I have had to clip the late-night activities (if we were out now, nine at night, I'd definitely be thinking about heading home), although friends with older children make it work. That said, everyone tells us how chill and adaptable our baby is, and that constant refrain partially informs my certainty that I want to quit while we're ahead, as it were. Still, I don't think I'd love a difficult baby any less: life would just be more stressful, and the timeline on getting back into a groove extended.
All of this is to say, although I don't know if a child/children would be right for you, nothing screams "don't do it!" and I think you could be happy either way. To me, a wonderful partner you love seems a shame to lose over such a choice.
posted by teremala at 7:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
Some people find it kind of befuddling that such love and such a conviction can exist alongside one another, and I've seen lots of AskMe answers that say kids aren't something you can compromise on, but... we have. It's working out fantastically, and I can see my life opening back up for hobbies and intellectual pursuits as the baby gets older and is less dependent upon me for her continued existence. For the meanwhile, honestly there's so much to learn and observe that the whole pregnancy and infanthood have been delightful intellectual experiences in their own rights. Outside of that, currently I read books and keep up on news/activism while she naps, and we bring her to meetings and social gatherings all the time. A couple of months back I ran a major charity project with her tied to my chest most of the time and although people boggled at us, it really wasn't a problem. I have had to clip the late-night activities (if we were out now, nine at night, I'd definitely be thinking about heading home), although friends with older children make it work. That said, everyone tells us how chill and adaptable our baby is, and that constant refrain partially informs my certainty that I want to quit while we're ahead, as it were. Still, I don't think I'd love a difficult baby any less: life would just be more stressful, and the timeline on getting back into a groove extended.
All of this is to say, although I don't know if a child/children would be right for you, nothing screams "don't do it!" and I think you could be happy either way. To me, a wonderful partner you love seems a shame to lose over such a choice.
posted by teremala at 7:37 PM on February 24, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess I just think it is incredibly difficult to know if you want to have kids at 26. A lot of people don't know at 26 and decide yes at 30, or 33, or 35 (or, decide no by those ages). But, on the other hand, there's also something to knowing if you want to be with the person you're with now forever. Your energy changes as you get older. When I was 26 I went out many nights a week, and the idea of getting up early was awful. Now, the idea of getting up early is still not my fave, but I am happy to be in bed before midnight and don't feel like I'm missing much.
There are a bunch of hobbies you can continue to pursue with a kid, but your hobby life will almost certainly look different in 5 years given changes in your career, your friend groups, your own interests. I travel frequently and go out a few nights a week after the kid is in bed. My husband is more likely to stay home with the baby. Having a child has had an impact, but not much more of an impact than the general impact of getting old would have had I don't think. (Now, two kids+, that seems to be a far different tipping point for most parents).
I will say that I think you can have an impactful career and a family, if you want to have both. Many people do.
If you really love your partner, I mean really truly love her and love the idea of spending life with her and are willing to sacrifice some of your hobbies for her if needed, you will be fine no matter what. And if you don't, well, I'm not sure this is right either way.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
There are a bunch of hobbies you can continue to pursue with a kid, but your hobby life will almost certainly look different in 5 years given changes in your career, your friend groups, your own interests. I travel frequently and go out a few nights a week after the kid is in bed. My husband is more likely to stay home with the baby. Having a child has had an impact, but not much more of an impact than the general impact of getting old would have had I don't think. (Now, two kids+, that seems to be a far different tipping point for most parents).
I will say that I think you can have an impactful career and a family, if you want to have both. Many people do.
If you really love your partner, I mean really truly love her and love the idea of spending life with her and are willing to sacrifice some of your hobbies for her if needed, you will be fine no matter what. And if you don't, well, I'm not sure this is right either way.
posted by ch1x0r at 7:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [2 favorites]
I read something recently in an article that really resonates with my experience being a parent. It was about a very fierce, very active Alzheimer's researcher who began suffering from the disease. I found an expert's delineation about the shift in the researcher's capability of enjoying interests in her life - she was previously super aggressice in her activism in all facets of her life and studies, but upon onset of her disease gradually became surprisingly content with hanging out with her grandkids much to her family's surprise - very very helpful:
"He differentiated between “critical interests” (personal goals and desires that make life worth living) and “experiential interests” (enjoying listening to music, for instance, or eating chocolate ice cream)."
I mean, parenthood so totally isn't dementia, but sometimes it does feel like a disintegration of the self you thought you were. So I found the expert's definition captured well the fact that in the first few years of being a parent, your ability to pursue or even have the energy to even think about your critical interests dwindle to nearly nothing. But that's not to say it's All Grind. It's some grind, but parenthood is also a thrilling and unexpected increase in experiential interests that raising and the day to day caring for a baby provides. And mind you they're not all FUN or LOVELY experiences, but there's something intensely satisfying about the very fleeting but present state about taking care of a young being that is all about the present.
Now that my kid is a toddler I'm starting to have some more time to pursue the critical interests again. You do emerge, I expect it will ebb and flow and sometimes you'll have more of one than the other, but I personally wouldn't look at the loss of hobby time as a parent as a certain net negative. It's temporary loss of your ability to pursue one kind of experience for another kind.
posted by sestaaak at 7:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
"He differentiated between “critical interests” (personal goals and desires that make life worth living) and “experiential interests” (enjoying listening to music, for instance, or eating chocolate ice cream)."
I mean, parenthood so totally isn't dementia, but sometimes it does feel like a disintegration of the self you thought you were. So I found the expert's definition captured well the fact that in the first few years of being a parent, your ability to pursue or even have the energy to even think about your critical interests dwindle to nearly nothing. But that's not to say it's All Grind. It's some grind, but parenthood is also a thrilling and unexpected increase in experiential interests that raising and the day to day caring for a baby provides. And mind you they're not all FUN or LOVELY experiences, but there's something intensely satisfying about the very fleeting but present state about taking care of a young being that is all about the present.
Now that my kid is a toddler I'm starting to have some more time to pursue the critical interests again. You do emerge, I expect it will ebb and flow and sometimes you'll have more of one than the other, but I personally wouldn't look at the loss of hobby time as a parent as a certain net negative. It's temporary loss of your ability to pursue one kind of experience for another kind.
posted by sestaaak at 7:58 PM on February 24, 2016 [7 favorites]
To the men ages 26-30, if you can't see yourself being ready to have kids in five years, stop dating women your age or older who have told you they definitely want kids.
It is a special kind of hell to be a woman who's 27-35, approaching that theoretical limit of good childbearing years, and badly wanting to have children but not having a ready and willing partner. The pressure from friends, family, colleagues, society at large, pretty much telling you who cares about your success in life, where's the baby? The general notion that if you don't do it NOW, you're going to have a really hard time conceiving a baby and there's a high chance it will have birth defects and be disabled. I have friends freezing their eggs because they're 35, and the relative success of this technology isn't even well documented yet. It just goes downhill from there, all around. And it is really fucking hard to avoid babies and pregnant women, they are literally everywhere. The whole thing is maddening.
I'm glad there's a general movement in support of people not having kids anymore, it would be really nice for the norm to not involve the societal pressure. But we're not there yet.
Your waffling is giving your girlfriend more anxiety than you know, and it's only going to get worse with time.
posted by lizbunny at 8:19 PM on February 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
It is a special kind of hell to be a woman who's 27-35, approaching that theoretical limit of good childbearing years, and badly wanting to have children but not having a ready and willing partner. The pressure from friends, family, colleagues, society at large, pretty much telling you who cares about your success in life, where's the baby? The general notion that if you don't do it NOW, you're going to have a really hard time conceiving a baby and there's a high chance it will have birth defects and be disabled. I have friends freezing their eggs because they're 35, and the relative success of this technology isn't even well documented yet. It just goes downhill from there, all around. And it is really fucking hard to avoid babies and pregnant women, they are literally everywhere. The whole thing is maddening.
I'm glad there's a general movement in support of people not having kids anymore, it would be really nice for the norm to not involve the societal pressure. But we're not there yet.
Your waffling is giving your girlfriend more anxiety than you know, and it's only going to get worse with time.
posted by lizbunny at 8:19 PM on February 24, 2016 [14 favorites]
This made me think of Amanda Palmer. The singer/artist/performer recently had a child with her husband Neil Gaiman. She wrote a response to a fan who emailed her worrying that her artistic output would dwindle and decline after becoming a parent (the FAN was worried this would happen to Amanda). Amanda basically says she was having the same concerns but why she decided to have a child and etc. You can read that article here: http://blog.amandapalmer.net/20150826/
Since then, she's given birth and I imagine that she will continue to talk about parenthood in future posts, but you can also see that she very clearly has not stopped doing her art, etc. She does have access to more resources which is very helpful, but you probably also aren't doing hobbies on the same massive scale as her.
Basically, if you're kind of like, "I dunno, maybe, but what if it sucks?" this is not the same as cringing, dreading, or hating the idea. This is anxiety of the unknown. Especially if you experience that with other unknowns.
One way to attack the unknown is to make it more known. Do you have relatives with young children you could spend more time with? Could you volunteer either with kids or seniors? Try to read more accounts by parents of their parenting lives.
You're about my age. I feel about like you do, though I'm female, except I don't really worry about it because I'm not in a relationship, let alone one that sounds like you could see being lifelong. I have a tendency to feel like there are precious few people in the world I'd want to spend a lifetime with, and like to think that with such a person you can get through the other stuff because #1 priority is that you want to be together. But of course not everyone sees it that way or sets those priorities like that, and being that I'm 27 I'm probably wrong about that.
I think the key thing here is to be honest with yourself and with her. Are you good at being honest with yourself?
Remember that the way each of you feels about what you want for yourself is valid. Try as hard as you can to be openly honest yourself and encourage her to be completely honest with what she wants from you. And once you guys know, stick with that, even if it's an answer somebody doesn't like.
posted by grokfest at 8:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
Since then, she's given birth and I imagine that she will continue to talk about parenthood in future posts, but you can also see that she very clearly has not stopped doing her art, etc. She does have access to more resources which is very helpful, but you probably also aren't doing hobbies on the same massive scale as her.
Basically, if you're kind of like, "I dunno, maybe, but what if it sucks?" this is not the same as cringing, dreading, or hating the idea. This is anxiety of the unknown. Especially if you experience that with other unknowns.
One way to attack the unknown is to make it more known. Do you have relatives with young children you could spend more time with? Could you volunteer either with kids or seniors? Try to read more accounts by parents of their parenting lives.
You're about my age. I feel about like you do, though I'm female, except I don't really worry about it because I'm not in a relationship, let alone one that sounds like you could see being lifelong. I have a tendency to feel like there are precious few people in the world I'd want to spend a lifetime with, and like to think that with such a person you can get through the other stuff because #1 priority is that you want to be together. But of course not everyone sees it that way or sets those priorities like that, and being that I'm 27 I'm probably wrong about that.
I think the key thing here is to be honest with yourself and with her. Are you good at being honest with yourself?
Remember that the way each of you feels about what you want for yourself is valid. Try as hard as you can to be openly honest yourself and encourage her to be completely honest with what she wants from you. And once you guys know, stick with that, even if it's an answer somebody doesn't like.
posted by grokfest at 8:57 PM on February 24, 2016 [4 favorites]
You don't sound like a good future father. You sound like you are way into you and your hobbies (badminton!), and way not into work and kids.
Let the current girlfriend know that you don't want to be a father. Maybe get a vasectomy, or at least raise the possibility to her just to make it clear to her that you're serious. Then she could decide what she wants to do.
posted by pracowity at 4:05 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let the current girlfriend know that you don't want to be a father. Maybe get a vasectomy, or at least raise the possibility to her just to make it clear to her that you're serious. Then she could decide what she wants to do.
posted by pracowity at 4:05 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Just having a first read of these myriad responses. Kind of overwhelmed by their variety but also very grateful for the willingness you've all shown to engage with this so deeply. So before I respond in any specific way, just wanted to say a massive THANK YOU to you all.
posted by say_it_with_love at 5:58 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by say_it_with_love at 5:58 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
So generally I think that if it's not a strong yes on having kids you probably shouldn't have kids. That said, I just want to point out that most of the things you mention enjoying in your question are SO MUCH FUN TO DO WITH KIDS! Kids are great at learning languages, they love listening to and making music, most of them are VERY into video games and/or sports. It's true that you may not be able to pursue those things in exactly the way you want (you might want to trade the XBox in for a WiiU, for example), but it's been really fun for me to explore my interests with my kid, and as she is getting older and developing her own interests, it's been exciting to have her bring me along on her explorations (I now know how to use Snapchat, for example).
posted by Rock Steady at 6:12 AM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 6:12 AM on February 25, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oh, I meant to add -- to see if your interests are compatible with kids, maybe volunteer with a children's organization near you to teach music or badminton or languages or whatever.
posted by Rock Steady at 6:13 AM on February 25, 2016
posted by Rock Steady at 6:13 AM on February 25, 2016
Let the current girlfriend know that you don't want to be a father. Maybe get a vasectomy, or at least raise the possibility to her just to make it clear to her that you're serious.
This is .... really .... weird advice. OP, you're 26. Please don't get a vasectomy. Please also don't threaten that you "might" get a vasectomy to prove a point. I think your question is really normal and it's understandable to have these concerns about parenting. You should tell your girlfriend how uncertain you are so that she can make her own plans. But please, don't get a vasectomy unless you're really certain.
posted by areaperson at 8:16 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is .... really .... weird advice. OP, you're 26. Please don't get a vasectomy. Please also don't threaten that you "might" get a vasectomy to prove a point. I think your question is really normal and it's understandable to have these concerns about parenting. You should tell your girlfriend how uncertain you are so that she can make her own plans. But please, don't get a vasectomy unless you're really certain.
posted by areaperson at 8:16 AM on February 25, 2016 [1 favorite]
My mother was on the fence about having kids until she got married. She never explained to me what made her change her mind. She put her career on hold, had 3 kids instead of the 2 she ideally wanted, and when the youngest was old enough to go to preschool she returned to the workforce. A year later, she was diagnosed with cancer and suddenly she didn't have the time/resources to do both. Let me tell you, we kids could feel her regret about having chosen kids over professional accomplishments and she never got over it (+ was a terrible parent).
You have a long list of things you want to accomplish and your reasons for having children are not compelling enough to motivate you - plus you see the kids as future resources instead of wanting them for the sake of raising them which is not a very good start. You already state that you will probably be resentful if you have to reallocate time from your goals to spending time on your kids. What if illness steals 50% of your time on top of that? What if your partner becomes ill and you need to do a good chunk of parenting + generate a reliable income? Unless you can reframe parenting as something that is valuable and worth your time, you're headed for trouble. (Sidenote: I find it fascinating that you want to teach empathic communication but don't see parenting as basically a 20+ year workshop on that.)
It seems to me like you know you don't want kids... but you enjoy your relationship and you like what your partner provides you with so you want to stay with her. But if you have kids to stay with her, it won't just be you+partner, it'll be you+partner+kids. Your relationship dynamics will shift and you will both need to be ready to build relationships with the new little humans in your lives. It sounds like she's ready to accept this but you are not.
You need to be honest with your partner about this and explain that you have a giant To Do list in your head and kids are not even on it. You need to accept that this might very well mean that she will leave you in order to find someone who does want kids because she has her own To Do list and it has HAVE KIDS as one of the main items. It's an incompatibility in life goals and the prioritization of these goals.
posted by buteo at 9:32 AM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
You have a long list of things you want to accomplish and your reasons for having children are not compelling enough to motivate you - plus you see the kids as future resources instead of wanting them for the sake of raising them which is not a very good start. You already state that you will probably be resentful if you have to reallocate time from your goals to spending time on your kids. What if illness steals 50% of your time on top of that? What if your partner becomes ill and you need to do a good chunk of parenting + generate a reliable income? Unless you can reframe parenting as something that is valuable and worth your time, you're headed for trouble. (Sidenote: I find it fascinating that you want to teach empathic communication but don't see parenting as basically a 20+ year workshop on that.)
It seems to me like you know you don't want kids... but you enjoy your relationship and you like what your partner provides you with so you want to stay with her. But if you have kids to stay with her, it won't just be you+partner, it'll be you+partner+kids. Your relationship dynamics will shift and you will both need to be ready to build relationships with the new little humans in your lives. It sounds like she's ready to accept this but you are not.
You need to be honest with your partner about this and explain that you have a giant To Do list in your head and kids are not even on it. You need to accept that this might very well mean that she will leave you in order to find someone who does want kids because she has her own To Do list and it has HAVE KIDS as one of the main items. It's an incompatibility in life goals and the prioritization of these goals.
posted by buteo at 9:32 AM on February 25, 2016 [6 favorites]
My story's a bit of an outlier, or at least the one I thought to tell you, so I waited but I keep coming back to this so here you go.
I did want kids, but I also worried what kind of an impact they would have on my long list of hobbies, but the top of which at the time was writing a lot, and doing art as a way of getting to the things to write about, and going places to experience the place in order to write about it, and then angsting and dropping all the writing literally off a bridge, the drama. But also seeing movies, baking, learning languages, reading, going to readings, and doing slam poetry. And working out.
Then we got pregnant for realsies (we had some infertility stuff) and I was very happy, but I also spent a whack of that pregnancy worried about my hobbies, which soon became things like "go to bed at 8 pm" and "eat 6 times a day before 6 or else be up with heartburn."
Then my daughter was born and wow, we were parents, lots of people experience it different ways but for me the minute I saw her handed limply over my chest to the gathering code team, it was like so HERE you are, I have been WAITING and for my husband...well, he had that moment too, a couple of hours after her resuscitation and my hemorrhage when he had to decide whether to stay at my bedside or follow her to the NICU and I whispered go and I watched him become a dad and put me second and her first, as the order of these things at that particular time was right and good to set, and then we spent four days being her parent with the kinds of questions that really test you like, okay, well, she's never going to walk or speak or hear so....I guess we'll put a ramp on the house?
And then she died.
So then I had a lot of time for my hobbies again.
I did a one-week intensive writing workshop, workshopped part of the (still unfinished) book of my heart, and spent many hours listening to other writers discuss how finishing a book is like birthing a baby, or another child, and every time I thought, frankly, fuck you, writing is not a baby. It totally is something. It was, in fact, The Thing That Saved Me.
Just not a baby.
And then that winter I got knocked up again and now I have two living children five years apart, 10 and 5 years old.
And I am just now getting back to writing, seeing what life is left in that book and stuff. It wasn't so much that I couldn't have prioritized it and in fact I have continued a lot of hobbies, a lot more working out, a lot of baking, etc. But the mental and emotional space I have is a lot different. And also, I like spending time with my kids a lot, and so I do that. That's me. But here's what I learned too.
On a practical level I learned: Some of my hobbies were about other people or success or things like that. Those foundered.
For example, my love of movies is totally intact, but I have only seen a couple of films in first release in the last ten years. So the part of that hobby that was "warriorqueen always has seen what's just come out and knows everything that's new and going on" is totally, completely, gone gone gone. But I am working through all kinds of great cinema, at home, when the kids are asleep, and I love it. But now it's me and the screen. It's not me and a group and me being the most knowledgeable.
When you have kids you are often not the most knowledgeable; that is almost always someone else who doesn't have to build Lego all Saturday afternoon.
I don't read as many novels and it's the same thing; I'm not as hooked into the literary scene. But I read tons and tons of short things online, because that's what I can do on my phone waiting for my kid to finish his bath. I dropped some hobbies. Languages - had. I do languages games with my kids, I mean, we scream back at Caillou in French, ahahahaha.
I prioritized working out because it gives me back needed energy and also I'm kinda on the old side and I'd like to be able to chase my teenagers down the street.
And writing's sort of been the hardest because...most things I could compromise on. But the way I write Big Stuff is to really, really immerse, and with my kids being young, it's really, really hard to immerse. But I have had jobs where I wrote and edited and so I've continued to keep my toolbox, I just haven't been able to apply it to my heart's desire.
And as strange as it probably sounds, I really am one hundred percent okay with that. Not forever, but for the two decades, sure.
So the second thing, what is the sort of - landscape of it. Well, since you asked this question I have been thinking about it. I can be maniacal at work to produce great stuff, and I used to be that way about hobbies and now I am not and...what happened? And I think I figured it out.
When I was engaged in my hobbies before, it really was about my passion and drive channeled into those things and I am still that person. But now I am also a person who cares maybe even just a little bit more about helping and frankly just getting to watch my kids discovered and pursue their hobbies and indeed, the world, which really is what hobbies are.
So...that's what makes it really okay.
I can't tell you if this will be you or not, that's just my story. I hope it's helpful. Err longest answer ever, sorry.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:24 PM on February 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
I did want kids, but I also worried what kind of an impact they would have on my long list of hobbies, but the top of which at the time was writing a lot, and doing art as a way of getting to the things to write about, and going places to experience the place in order to write about it, and then angsting and dropping all the writing literally off a bridge, the drama. But also seeing movies, baking, learning languages, reading, going to readings, and doing slam poetry. And working out.
Then we got pregnant for realsies (we had some infertility stuff) and I was very happy, but I also spent a whack of that pregnancy worried about my hobbies, which soon became things like "go to bed at 8 pm" and "eat 6 times a day before 6 or else be up with heartburn."
Then my daughter was born and wow, we were parents, lots of people experience it different ways but for me the minute I saw her handed limply over my chest to the gathering code team, it was like so HERE you are, I have been WAITING and for my husband...well, he had that moment too, a couple of hours after her resuscitation and my hemorrhage when he had to decide whether to stay at my bedside or follow her to the NICU and I whispered go and I watched him become a dad and put me second and her first, as the order of these things at that particular time was right and good to set, and then we spent four days being her parent with the kinds of questions that really test you like, okay, well, she's never going to walk or speak or hear so....I guess we'll put a ramp on the house?
And then she died.
So then I had a lot of time for my hobbies again.
I did a one-week intensive writing workshop, workshopped part of the (still unfinished) book of my heart, and spent many hours listening to other writers discuss how finishing a book is like birthing a baby, or another child, and every time I thought, frankly, fuck you, writing is not a baby. It totally is something. It was, in fact, The Thing That Saved Me.
Just not a baby.
And then that winter I got knocked up again and now I have two living children five years apart, 10 and 5 years old.
And I am just now getting back to writing, seeing what life is left in that book and stuff. It wasn't so much that I couldn't have prioritized it and in fact I have continued a lot of hobbies, a lot more working out, a lot of baking, etc. But the mental and emotional space I have is a lot different. And also, I like spending time with my kids a lot, and so I do that. That's me. But here's what I learned too.
On a practical level I learned: Some of my hobbies were about other people or success or things like that. Those foundered.
For example, my love of movies is totally intact, but I have only seen a couple of films in first release in the last ten years. So the part of that hobby that was "warriorqueen always has seen what's just come out and knows everything that's new and going on" is totally, completely, gone gone gone. But I am working through all kinds of great cinema, at home, when the kids are asleep, and I love it. But now it's me and the screen. It's not me and a group and me being the most knowledgeable.
When you have kids you are often not the most knowledgeable; that is almost always someone else who doesn't have to build Lego all Saturday afternoon.
I don't read as many novels and it's the same thing; I'm not as hooked into the literary scene. But I read tons and tons of short things online, because that's what I can do on my phone waiting for my kid to finish his bath. I dropped some hobbies. Languages - had. I do languages games with my kids, I mean, we scream back at Caillou in French, ahahahaha.
I prioritized working out because it gives me back needed energy and also I'm kinda on the old side and I'd like to be able to chase my teenagers down the street.
And writing's sort of been the hardest because...most things I could compromise on. But the way I write Big Stuff is to really, really immerse, and with my kids being young, it's really, really hard to immerse. But I have had jobs where I wrote and edited and so I've continued to keep my toolbox, I just haven't been able to apply it to my heart's desire.
And as strange as it probably sounds, I really am one hundred percent okay with that. Not forever, but for the two decades, sure.
So the second thing, what is the sort of - landscape of it. Well, since you asked this question I have been thinking about it. I can be maniacal at work to produce great stuff, and I used to be that way about hobbies and now I am not and...what happened? And I think I figured it out.
When I was engaged in my hobbies before, it really was about my passion and drive channeled into those things and I am still that person. But now I am also a person who cares maybe even just a little bit more about helping and frankly just getting to watch my kids discovered and pursue their hobbies and indeed, the world, which really is what hobbies are.
So...that's what makes it really okay.
I can't tell you if this will be you or not, that's just my story. I hope it's helpful. Err longest answer ever, sorry.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:24 PM on February 25, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm in my late 40s and have never regretted my decision not to have kids. Time is my reason too. I can't say I've ever had a list of hard-core hobbies, and my drive to accomplish big things has lessened a little. But I do work a lot (and still love it), and when I'm home, I have all the time I need for myself. The house is quiet, relaxing.
My partner feels the same way. Yes, it is a deal-breaker. Sorry.
A friend with kids has a partner with a serious hobby. My friend does not have such a hobby, and deeply resents the time and attention this hobby takes away from the family.
My one regret is that my friendships suffered when my friends had kids. Socializing at all became difficult. My friends couldn't really go out anymore. If we hung out with the kids around, we couldn't have real conversations, and the ones we did revolved (naturally enough) around kid-related stuff. This has gotten better now that the kids are in their teens, but our friendships are definitely not the same. Maybe thatt's also because we lack this major thing in common.
posted by Frenchy67 at 7:11 PM on February 25, 2016
My partner feels the same way. Yes, it is a deal-breaker. Sorry.
A friend with kids has a partner with a serious hobby. My friend does not have such a hobby, and deeply resents the time and attention this hobby takes away from the family.
My one regret is that my friendships suffered when my friends had kids. Socializing at all became difficult. My friends couldn't really go out anymore. If we hung out with the kids around, we couldn't have real conversations, and the ones we did revolved (naturally enough) around kid-related stuff. This has gotten better now that the kids are in their teens, but our friendships are definitely not the same. Maybe thatt's also because we lack this major thing in common.
posted by Frenchy67 at 7:11 PM on February 25, 2016
I also enjoy learning new languages for the experience of it, and I’m hoping to start on a much more difficult one this year;
I’m a musician and pursue multiple different music-making projects;
It occurs to me that these are both things that kids are really, really good at. You and the kid could learn languages and make music together...
posted by bendy at 11:45 PM on February 25, 2016
I’m a musician and pursue multiple different music-making projects;
It occurs to me that these are both things that kids are really, really good at. You and the kid could learn languages and make music together...
posted by bendy at 11:45 PM on February 25, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by Atrahasis at 2:00 PM on February 24, 2016 [15 favorites]