Is it just me, or is that weird?
February 6, 2016 4:45 AM Subscribe
Our landlords are selling our rented apartment. They have advertised it using some photos I sent earlier, without asking permission first. Is this unusual?
I currently share a two bedroom apartment with a friend. Our landlords previously lived here, but moved interstate last year. We have mutual friends and are renting directly - i.e. we signed a lease when we moved in, but are not going through a real estate agent.
We have been good tenants, caring for the property, paying rent on time, etc. Likewise, the landlords have been professional and considerate. We have only asked for one repair in the twelve months we've been here and it was immediately approved.
Our lease recently expired and our landlords informed us that they would have to sell the property in order to buy in their new home town, although we are staying on with a month-by-month lease until that happens. Landlords also decided not to ask a real estate agent to sell for them, but to advertise it as "for sale by owner". They have asked our next-door neighbour, and mutual friend, to coordinate the actual logistics of showing people through the apartment. This friend has spare keys to our place, as we do to his - we will water plants if the other household is away, etc.
Sometime last year, I took some photos of the house on my phone - kitchen, lounge room, my bedroom, balcony - and emailed them to our landlords, thinking they might like to see that the house is lived in, enjoyed, and well-cared for. Our landlords thanked us for the pictures and said the apartment looked lovely.
Early this year, the apartment was advertised online - using those same photos. They did not post the photo of my bedroom, but they did use the others. In addition, they had asked our mutual friend to take a photo of my friend's room - without asking her first. I was surprised.
I don't plan to bring this up with our landlords. I'm not looking for ways to approach the subject. I simply want to know, for my own curiosity - is this a normal, accepted practice? Or is it unusual to both use my photos, and then take more without asking, all to be posted online?
I currently share a two bedroom apartment with a friend. Our landlords previously lived here, but moved interstate last year. We have mutual friends and are renting directly - i.e. we signed a lease when we moved in, but are not going through a real estate agent.
We have been good tenants, caring for the property, paying rent on time, etc. Likewise, the landlords have been professional and considerate. We have only asked for one repair in the twelve months we've been here and it was immediately approved.
Our lease recently expired and our landlords informed us that they would have to sell the property in order to buy in their new home town, although we are staying on with a month-by-month lease until that happens. Landlords also decided not to ask a real estate agent to sell for them, but to advertise it as "for sale by owner". They have asked our next-door neighbour, and mutual friend, to coordinate the actual logistics of showing people through the apartment. This friend has spare keys to our place, as we do to his - we will water plants if the other household is away, etc.
Sometime last year, I took some photos of the house on my phone - kitchen, lounge room, my bedroom, balcony - and emailed them to our landlords, thinking they might like to see that the house is lived in, enjoyed, and well-cared for. Our landlords thanked us for the pictures and said the apartment looked lovely.
Early this year, the apartment was advertised online - using those same photos. They did not post the photo of my bedroom, but they did use the others. In addition, they had asked our mutual friend to take a photo of my friend's room - without asking her first. I was surprised.
I don't plan to bring this up with our landlords. I'm not looking for ways to approach the subject. I simply want to know, for my own curiosity - is this a normal, accepted practice? Or is it unusual to both use my photos, and then take more without asking, all to be posted online?
I shouldn't think it often happens that tenants send landlords pictures - unless they're pictures of a problem. If it were common, then I dare say landlords would often use the nice pictures. It might even be a kind of selling point - tenant's own pictures!
posted by Segundus at 5:03 AM on February 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 5:03 AM on February 6, 2016 [16 favorites]
Like Segundus, I think it's pretty unusual for a landlord to have a tenant's photographs, so it's hard to say how (un)usual it would be for them to use such photos. My first thought is that it's probably always good practice to ask for permission before posting someone else's photos online, but of course not everyone does that.
So I'd say it's slightly unusual all around, but not super weird.
Also it was super thoughtful of you to send those photos in the first place! I've rented from individuals before (as opposed to vague management companies) and this never occurred to me. Very cool idea!
posted by schroedingersgirl at 5:10 AM on February 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
So I'd say it's slightly unusual all around, but not super weird.
Also it was super thoughtful of you to send those photos in the first place! I've rented from individuals before (as opposed to vague management companies) and this never occurred to me. Very cool idea!
posted by schroedingersgirl at 5:10 AM on February 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
Giving somebody a copy of a photo doesn't automatically give them permission to display the photo publicly; they need the copyright holder's (your) permission to do that.
Both cases also seems like a potential violation of your privacy. It's possible, for example, that there could have been stuff in your photos or lying around your friend's room that you didn't want really want shown publicly (even if you didn't mind your neighbor or landlord seeing them).
So I definitely would have asked first, and think it's a little weird that they didn't.
But I wouldn't make a fuss about it either.
posted by bfields at 5:40 AM on February 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
Both cases also seems like a potential violation of your privacy. It's possible, for example, that there could have been stuff in your photos or lying around your friend's room that you didn't want really want shown publicly (even if you didn't mind your neighbor or landlord seeing them).
So I definitely would have asked first, and think it's a little weird that they didn't.
But I wouldn't make a fuss about it either.
posted by bfields at 5:40 AM on February 6, 2016 [12 favorites]
What about this bothers you? Are you in the pictures? Are there photographs in the pictures or any other personally identifiable information? Are you bothered that you just weren't asked?
It was nice of you to send them the pics and actually smart of them to use pics that were already taken. Really though, the alternative would have been for them to contact you and request a time to come to travel to the apartment and take pictures - pretty much any house without interior pictures just gets skipped over at Zillow or Realtor.com. So look at it like you (and they) don't have to go through all that trouble. Like others have said, it is unusual for tenants to send landlords pictures, so there really isn't precedence here.
posted by NoraCharles at 5:54 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
It was nice of you to send them the pics and actually smart of them to use pics that were already taken. Really though, the alternative would have been for them to contact you and request a time to come to travel to the apartment and take pictures - pretty much any house without interior pictures just gets skipped over at Zillow or Realtor.com. So look at it like you (and they) don't have to go through all that trouble. Like others have said, it is unusual for tenants to send landlords pictures, so there really isn't precedence here.
posted by NoraCharles at 5:54 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I agree it's a little weird because it oversteps a few boundaries a tiny bit, but I also agree it's nothing to approach them about.
Yes, your pictures are your copyright, they are now using them for commercial gains. If they are not media people or similar, they might not know this is bad, hence, one of the boundaries I'm noting was crossed. Also, they are not posting pics of the raw or staged space, they are posting photos of your personal home how it appears today more or less, without your permission. Potentially thieves or others could use this info nefariously, although that is true of other pics, maybe. But say, if a very expensive piece of electronics or valuable antiques are in the pics, I might be concern-ished. It sounds like your next door neighbor is on top of things, but if they were not, this might be a real issue.
I totally get why you posted this ask and why you have no plans to act. Sometimes folks are clueless about how the internet works. You're not wrong.
posted by jbenben at 6:17 AM on February 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, your pictures are your copyright, they are now using them for commercial gains. If they are not media people or similar, they might not know this is bad, hence, one of the boundaries I'm noting was crossed. Also, they are not posting pics of the raw or staged space, they are posting photos of your personal home how it appears today more or less, without your permission. Potentially thieves or others could use this info nefariously, although that is true of other pics, maybe. But say, if a very expensive piece of electronics or valuable antiques are in the pics, I might be concern-ished. It sounds like your next door neighbor is on top of things, but if they were not, this might be a real issue.
I totally get why you posted this ask and why you have no plans to act. Sometimes folks are clueless about how the internet works. You're not wrong.
posted by jbenben at 6:17 AM on February 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like people above have said, it's unusual for a tenant to send a landlord photos, so this whole issue is uncommon. I can see how it would feel like a violation from your point of view - that's your home and they posted pictures of it online! But from the landlord's point of view, they're just photos of something they own. I don't think they were exactly in the wrong here.
posted by christinetheslp at 6:21 AM on February 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by christinetheslp at 6:21 AM on February 6, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, it's unusual. Legally, and ethically, they should have asked you first (and possibly paid you).
However, something else that isn't unusual is not knowing all that. They are not bad people, just unknowing.
posted by amtho at 7:17 AM on February 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
However, something else that isn't unusual is not knowing all that. They are not bad people, just unknowing.
posted by amtho at 7:17 AM on February 6, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's a little weird, but maybe they thought it was better than bothering you with having a photographer come into your space. Or worse, maybe they imagined a scenario: what if they ask, you say no (because you don't want the place to sell), so they schedule a time for a photographer to come in, and (because you don't want the place to sell) you have the place a huge mess...
posted by salvia at 7:26 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 7:26 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
They should have talked to you first.
posted by AugustWest at 7:29 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by AugustWest at 7:29 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
When it comes to the existing photos, I imagine they just thought one of two -- or possibly both -- things:
a) this makes it easier on us, since we don't have to get someone to take a zillion new photos
b) this makes it easier on you, since you don't have to tidy up the whole house and then deal with having someone taking a zillion new photos.
Other than coordinating with you on when their friend is accessing your apartment, I would not expect a landlord to request your individual permission to do the things associated with selling their property like having someone come in and photograph the rooms. That's just an expected part of the selling process.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
a) this makes it easier on us, since we don't have to get someone to take a zillion new photos
b) this makes it easier on you, since you don't have to tidy up the whole house and then deal with having someone taking a zillion new photos.
Other than coordinating with you on when their friend is accessing your apartment, I would not expect a landlord to request your individual permission to do the things associated with selling their property like having someone come in and photograph the rooms. That's just an expected part of the selling process.
posted by jacquilynne at 7:31 AM on February 6, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is really weird, but landlords make their money by being as stingy with expenses as humanly possible, so when the opportunity for "free pictures!" came up, they jumped on it.
So, yes, weird from a normal human standpoint, but just the sort of thing a landlord would do to save a few bucks.
posted by deanc at 9:16 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, yes, weird from a normal human standpoint, but just the sort of thing a landlord would do to save a few bucks.
posted by deanc at 9:16 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
With the introduction of social media, ubiquitous digital cameras, and the ease of photo-sharing, the norms and boundaries around what information is and isn't ok to share or keep private are in flux. What's ok for one person isn't ok for another. You and your landlord have different expectations around photo-sharing, and if you had wanted to, it would have been ok to talk to them about it.
asked our mutual friend to take a photo of my friend's room - without asking her first
This is another story.
posted by aniola at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
asked our mutual friend to take a photo of my friend's room - without asking her first
This is another story.
posted by aniola at 10:14 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
You'd be well within your rights to ask for compensation for the commercial use of your photos.
posted by Scram at 10:25 AM on February 6, 2016
posted by Scram at 10:25 AM on February 6, 2016
If they didn't have your pictures, they would have sent someone to take THE.VERY.SAME.PICTURES. I'm not seeing this as a problem at all, unless you were using those photos in some sort of business manner or were planning to sell them as art. Given that things have been going so well with them, consider yourself fortunate and gain good Karma.
posted by HuronBob at 10:38 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by HuronBob at 10:38 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, in this age of people sharing each others photos on social media, I think that when you unsolicitedly emailed your landlord photos of their property, they didn't think
“tworedshoes is allowing me to look at these photos (but not share with anyone).”
but rather they thought
“tworedshoes gave me these photos of my property”.
They are wrong copyright-wise, but... I think often when people are trying to sell their property, their brains for etiquette or questioning-themselves go right out the window—they’ll just do anything to get that property sold as quickly as possible.
posted by blueberry at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2016
“tworedshoes is allowing me to look at these photos (but not share with anyone).”
but rather they thought
“tworedshoes gave me these photos of my property”.
They are wrong copyright-wise, but... I think often when people are trying to sell their property, their brains for etiquette or questioning-themselves go right out the window—they’ll just do anything to get that property sold as quickly as possible.
posted by blueberry at 11:08 AM on February 6, 2016
I don't understand what the problem is. The landlord told you he was selling it and has put the apartment on the market. He used the most recent photos he had of the unit that you voluntarily sent to him. Why do you care? Do you want him to pay you for the photos? Give you photo credit? This hardly seems worth worrying about.
If they didn't have your pictures, they would have sent someone to take THE.VERY.SAME.PICTURES.
This.
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:42 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
If they didn't have your pictures, they would have sent someone to take THE.VERY.SAME.PICTURES.
This.
posted by AppleTurnover at 12:42 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you say they've previously been professional and considerate, I'd bet anything they used your photos at least in part to make things easier on you - so they wouldn't have to inconvenience you by getting a stranger into your home to take photos and make you get the whole place picture perfect clean. In my head anyway, I'd be thinking, I have these great photos anyway, why put anyone out? Would it be nice if they gave you a heads up? Absolutely. But don't attribute to malice that which probably came from a place of actually trying to be considerate of you and save a bit of money for them.
posted by Jubey at 1:07 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Jubey at 1:07 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here's why it's a problem and not "the same exact photos that would have been taken anyway"....
If I were taking pics for public consumption online, I would take care to remove valuables and identifiers from the pics. For example, anything that indicated a child lived there, or similar.
In this way, the pics from the OP that were posted are clearly a crossed boundary since they were snapped for private viewing, and likely personal identifiers of the OP and roommate were not specifically removed from the shots. Also, copyright and the usage for commercial gain, as previously pointed out.
Similarly, a landlord or landlord's agent entering an occupied unit to snap a photo (of a bedroom, no less!) when the tenant is not home and was not notified is (a) AGAINST ALL TENANT LAW I AM AWARE OF, and (b) icky, icky, icky, icky that the pic was posted online.
These folks are not professional landlords and everyone universally acknowledged they meant no harm or malice, but no, it's not at all OK or legal technically speaking.
posted by jbenben at 2:39 PM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
If I were taking pics for public consumption online, I would take care to remove valuables and identifiers from the pics. For example, anything that indicated a child lived there, or similar.
In this way, the pics from the OP that were posted are clearly a crossed boundary since they were snapped for private viewing, and likely personal identifiers of the OP and roommate were not specifically removed from the shots. Also, copyright and the usage for commercial gain, as previously pointed out.
Similarly, a landlord or landlord's agent entering an occupied unit to snap a photo (of a bedroom, no less!) when the tenant is not home and was not notified is (a) AGAINST ALL TENANT LAW I AM AWARE OF, and (b) icky, icky, icky, icky that the pic was posted online.
These folks are not professional landlords and everyone universally acknowledged they meant no harm or malice, but no, it's not at all OK or legal technically speaking.
posted by jbenben at 2:39 PM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is a really good time to remind your neighbor that when he is acting on behalf of your landlord, he is acting as a landlord, and not as a friend. In particular, he need to follow the proper procedures about asking permission/giving advance notice before entering the house.
If you haven't done this already, you should also talk to your landlords about their expectations on you for showing the house to potential buyers. At the very least, the "for sale" sign should say "Do Not Disturb Tenants" You also want to talk about how much advance notice you get before buyers visit and what they expect in terms in tidying up when it happens. I've been a seller showing my house and it can be huge strain unless you are in a really hot market. (If the house sells the first weekend it is shown, this isn't so bad. If you have buyers trickling in over a period of weeks or months, they are asking for a lot from you.) You might also consider what they will give you (usually a rent reduction) in exchange.
posted by metahawk at 3:43 PM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you haven't done this already, you should also talk to your landlords about their expectations on you for showing the house to potential buyers. At the very least, the "for sale" sign should say "Do Not Disturb Tenants" You also want to talk about how much advance notice you get before buyers visit and what they expect in terms in tidying up when it happens. I've been a seller showing my house and it can be huge strain unless you are in a really hot market. (If the house sells the first weekend it is shown, this isn't so bad. If you have buyers trickling in over a period of weeks or months, they are asking for a lot from you.) You might also consider what they will give you (usually a rent reduction) in exchange.
posted by metahawk at 3:43 PM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks so much for all the answers everyone.
I agree with those who have pointed out that our landlords most likely acted with the best of intentions, quite possibly with our best intentions at heart (now we have photos, we don't need to bother them for more!) I certainly don't want payment for the photos, or to make an issue out of it. It's more that when I sent those pictures, I hadn't mentally scanned them thinking "am I okay with this being public?" I had only thought, Mr and Mrs X will like to see that the apartment is looking good! So it did surprise me to find them on real estate dot com.
My only reason for posting this question has been to satisfy my own curiosity - unusual practice or totally normal - and as people have pointed out, sending pics to your landlords in the first place is unusual, so hard to say.
Thanks again all.
posted by tworedshoes at 4:33 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree with those who have pointed out that our landlords most likely acted with the best of intentions, quite possibly with our best intentions at heart (now we have photos, we don't need to bother them for more!) I certainly don't want payment for the photos, or to make an issue out of it. It's more that when I sent those pictures, I hadn't mentally scanned them thinking "am I okay with this being public?" I had only thought, Mr and Mrs X will like to see that the apartment is looking good! So it did surprise me to find them on real estate dot com.
My only reason for posting this question has been to satisfy my own curiosity - unusual practice or totally normal - and as people have pointed out, sending pics to your landlords in the first place is unusual, so hard to say.
Thanks again all.
posted by tworedshoes at 4:33 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Data point: I moved out of an apartment in 2006, and saw the apartment available 2 years later when I was curious-searching Craiglist. It was super odd to see my things in a photo on Craigslist, but I didn't see any harm in it.
posted by benbenson at 7:11 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by benbenson at 7:11 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wrote above that they should have talked to you first. Let me elaborate. Common courtesy would have been to give you a heads up. "Hey we were thinking about using those photos you sent us for the ad. Do you mind?" You had two choices at that point. One, "No worries. Thanks a lot." or "Ummm. I would rather you not use those photos. I will take a few more this week and send them to you." If they were really worried about you saying no, then they really SHOULD have asked.
To me, it is not about legalities. It is about being nice to a friend/tenant. Not everything needs to get down to legalities, contracts, leases, copyrights, etc. Sometimes common courtesy says, ask.
posted by AugustWest at 8:19 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
To me, it is not about legalities. It is about being nice to a friend/tenant. Not everything needs to get down to legalities, contracts, leases, copyrights, etc. Sometimes common courtesy says, ask.
posted by AugustWest at 8:19 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was pretty weird to ask someone to take a picture of your roommate's room without asking her first. That's an invasion of privacy and really inappropriate and unprofessional.
posted by serenity_now at 5:33 AM on May 9, 2016
posted by serenity_now at 5:33 AM on May 9, 2016
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by teststrip at 4:54 AM on February 6, 2016 [7 favorites]