Do I wait for things to get better or is it a bad fit?
January 27, 2016 10:36 AM Subscribe
I've been in a relationship for 7 months with a person who I'm incredibly charmed by, but makes me feel lonely when he's inconsistent in his pursuit of me. I've made excuses for his traveling for work, his creative brain, our cultural differences and his hurts from his previous broken engagement. Some things that just seem normal to me - romantic gestures (surprises, flowers, notes) and consistent communication - seem difficult for him. He says that he loves me. Are my expectations unreasonable or is he emotionally immature?
Help me understand if:
1) My boyfriend is awesome; I’m too needy – need to grow up in terms of relationship expectations.
2) My boyfriend sucks; he isn’t sure what he wants and is stringing me along so that he’s not alone.
3) We’re just not the right fit.
So, I’ve been dating this musician for 7 months or so. I feel like it’s important to state that he’s a musician to give context about his life and work schedule. I work a 9-5, he works 3-5 days a week, a lot of evenings, and tours. We met by way of our mutual friend group – our friends had tried to set us up for about a year, but we didn’t meet until this summer. When we first met, I felt like he was very pursuant of me. I had to be out of town for about a month right after our first date, so he called every day, we would Facetime for 3-4 hours often during that time, and he would talk constantly of plans that he had for us.
He also did discuss with me that his previous relationship was long distance, very serious, and she broke his heart unexpectedly after he had bought a ring to propose to her. This devastated him and he spent about a year and a half serial dating to cope with his rejection. It had been at least five years since he’d been in a relationship with someone in his city. Furthermore, he’s black and she was the first white woman that he dated. I’m the second.
I came back to town and assumed that since he had been so pursuant, so vulnerable with me, and that we had the same group of friends who had vouched for me, we would be in a relationship. I brought up being exclusive and he said I was the only person he wanted to see and things felt really good. But when I asked him a month later if he wanted to be in a relationship, he said that he wasn’t ready yet and asked me to “be patient” (this is a running tagline in the way that he relates to me).
This felt kind of weird to me because I didn’t understand how you could want to be exclusive with someone, talk to them every day when you travel, see them multiple times a week when you’re home, and help each other with each other’s homes, work, etc. and not want to consider yourself someone’s “boyfriend,” but I decided that he must have been skittish from his last relationship and was struggling with dating a person who lives 5 minutes away from him. I also was developing serious feelings for him, so even though I felt hurt by him a lot for being inconsistent with me, I enjoyed his creativity, intellect, sense of humor, and vulnerability. He now calls me his boyfriend, but I think it took 5 months for him to say "boyfriend" (he would rather call me his "lady").
There were some other strange things that he wanted me to “be patient” about. One, he didn’t kiss me for a little over 3 months. He said that he respected me and didn’t want to treat me the way that he had treated other women that were purely physical relationships. A few months later, I noticed that I was the one initiating a lot of the physical intimacy and sometimes when I did, he said would say that I was “trying too hard to be sexy” (no one has ever said that to me in a relationship before) and it was a turnoff for him. There would be times when we would be around each other all day long working on a project at his house, not be physical the whole day, and when we lay down for bed, he would just say that he wanted to hold me, that he just wanted me to be there, but never initiate physical intimacy. I told him that it hurt my feelings and made me feel rejected; he apologized, but said that I just needed to “be patient.” He kept saying that he wanted sex to be more about intimacy than about physical needs, that this was his way of respecting me (I do believe this to a degree, but I also feel like a relationship should have some degree of physical intimacy that is mutually pursued).
There have been other pieces of our relationship that have surprised me; in my past relationships (I’ve had three serious relationships in my life before him) each guy, in my opinion, was romantic with me. They were thoughtful to write me sweet notes, leave me gifts on my car before I left for work, bought me flowers, planned surprise dates about things that were just about me, etc, and so of course, I did the same for them. In my current relationship, my boyfriend doesn’t do any of those things, even though I do them for him. I surprised him with expensive concert tickets, planned a huge birthday weekend for him, write him sweet notes from time to time, help him clean up his home when I’m over, make CD playlists for him, brought him food when he has a studio session, etc. He has done none of those things for me. Sometimes he’ll text me a sweet message. And he usually buys me gifts when he’s traveling. But no flowers, no sweet notes, no romantic gestures. He has even said that he thinks sending “good morning” texts is an “obligation.” I guess I would be more understanding about this if I felt like he wasn’t a romantic, feeling kind of person at all, but he is and has been in other relationships. He said that in his last relationship, he felt like he did all of the work and he likes being with someone who works for him (which I felt like was a shitty thing to say). He will frequently say he’s going to do something (call me before work when he’s out of town, take me to an event at town, call me to check in on me while I’m driving 8 hours through an ice storm) and then not follow through. I have talked to him about being inconsistent and he admits it’s a problem for him. It gets somewhat better, but then each act of inconsistency makes my heart hurt just a little bit. It also makes me struggle to believe him when he says he’s going to do things for me.
That being said, he calls me every day and we do see each other almost every day that he’s in town, even if he just comes by to say hi for a few minutes. He also defers to me when he’s making decisions, saying “I’ll check with the Mrs.” when a friend asks him to go out or stay a day longer when he travels. He also is so incredibly sweet when we’re together. He tells me that I’m beautiful every day, that he’s grateful for me, and has helped me through some difficult family drama that has come up in the past couple months. He tells me that I’m his safe place, a place of home for him, and just recently started calling me his “best friend.” Furthermore, he gave me a key to his house and encouraged me to stay there when he’s away. He’s said so often, “I love it when you’re around. It makes me a better person.”
He also tells me that he loves me every day. And he almost always says it first. I told him months ago that “I love you” is really important to me and that I didn’t want him to say it until he really saw a future with me. Stupidly, I accidentally said it first after we’d been dating for four months, but he was the one who kept saying it and it became a sense a safety for both of us.
Lastly, he listens to me when I express my hurt at his inconsistency or shortness and he always acknowledges my feelings, and ostensibly, tries harder to be more consistent and kind.
Anyway, he goes through these periods where he’s really excited about me – will call me and talk to me multiple times a day for hour-long conversations each time – and other times when he says he “needs some space” from me for a few days and will check in with me, but not much, maybe a couple texts or a ten minute phone conversation before bed. I feel like he always gets to choose this. He also can have some pretty explosive anger about, in my opinion, trivial things, like where a gas station is or a viewpoint that I express that he doesn’t agree with. He’s never called me names or physically hurt me, but his reticence can be cutting and he will often say that I’m projecting my neediness onto him. Which I struggle to understand. I feel like, if you’re in a committed relationship with a person that you say that you love, you take on the other person’s neediness to some degree.
There are a couple of other strange things that have happened recently. He is getting ready to make a move for his career and talks about it a lot, but hasn’t ever talked about it in relation to me (even though a few months ago he asked me, hypothetically, if I would move with him). When I brought it up, he said that he wasn’t ready to have that conversation yet. The second strange thing is that he told me that he’s had a few non-sexual dreams about a friend of mine that he’s met a couple times. He said that he’s had at least 3 dreams about her and he feels embarrassed about it because they were together in the dream. When I asked him if he was interested in pursuing something with her, he responded, “I don’t even know her.” Which, I told him later, hurt my feelings. I said that I thought that he should respond with “I want to be with you.” Later on, he said that he wanted to be with me, that he loved me, that he was grateful for me, etc. but it still makes me feel weird.
So, I guess, here are my questions: after 7 months, I feel like a person has shown a lot about themselves. There are several things in this relationship that make feel hurt or lonely at times (his inconsistency, not following through with what he says, his anger about trivial things, his need for control), but I wonder if they will get better after the relationship has more time, especially since “patience” is his mantra. His parents have a really strong marriage and he’s always talked about having a marriage like his parents. In fact, when I ask him about what he wants in life, his first thing is always “get married and have a family.” I wonder sometimes if he is going to wait to demonstrate those romantic things to me when he decides for sure that he wants to commit to me. I also wonder if those are things that I should give up desiring for a person who is really interesting, funny, and handsome. A friend of mine told me recently, “When you talk about [boyfriend], you never say anything about how he makes you feel good. You say ‘he’s interesting and creative and funny’ but you don’t really talk about how he makes you feel good and that seems like a problem to me.” Is she right?
TL;DR Is my creative boyfriend normal, lazy, or afraid? Am I normal or too needy? Do I stay with an inconsistent person who fascinates me, but makes me feel lonely and is teaching me to be independent or do I break off the relationship and hope that maybe I’ll find someone who parallels my romantic style?
Help me understand if:
1) My boyfriend is awesome; I’m too needy – need to grow up in terms of relationship expectations.
2) My boyfriend sucks; he isn’t sure what he wants and is stringing me along so that he’s not alone.
3) We’re just not the right fit.
So, I’ve been dating this musician for 7 months or so. I feel like it’s important to state that he’s a musician to give context about his life and work schedule. I work a 9-5, he works 3-5 days a week, a lot of evenings, and tours. We met by way of our mutual friend group – our friends had tried to set us up for about a year, but we didn’t meet until this summer. When we first met, I felt like he was very pursuant of me. I had to be out of town for about a month right after our first date, so he called every day, we would Facetime for 3-4 hours often during that time, and he would talk constantly of plans that he had for us.
He also did discuss with me that his previous relationship was long distance, very serious, and she broke his heart unexpectedly after he had bought a ring to propose to her. This devastated him and he spent about a year and a half serial dating to cope with his rejection. It had been at least five years since he’d been in a relationship with someone in his city. Furthermore, he’s black and she was the first white woman that he dated. I’m the second.
I came back to town and assumed that since he had been so pursuant, so vulnerable with me, and that we had the same group of friends who had vouched for me, we would be in a relationship. I brought up being exclusive and he said I was the only person he wanted to see and things felt really good. But when I asked him a month later if he wanted to be in a relationship, he said that he wasn’t ready yet and asked me to “be patient” (this is a running tagline in the way that he relates to me).
This felt kind of weird to me because I didn’t understand how you could want to be exclusive with someone, talk to them every day when you travel, see them multiple times a week when you’re home, and help each other with each other’s homes, work, etc. and not want to consider yourself someone’s “boyfriend,” but I decided that he must have been skittish from his last relationship and was struggling with dating a person who lives 5 minutes away from him. I also was developing serious feelings for him, so even though I felt hurt by him a lot for being inconsistent with me, I enjoyed his creativity, intellect, sense of humor, and vulnerability. He now calls me his boyfriend, but I think it took 5 months for him to say "boyfriend" (he would rather call me his "lady").
There were some other strange things that he wanted me to “be patient” about. One, he didn’t kiss me for a little over 3 months. He said that he respected me and didn’t want to treat me the way that he had treated other women that were purely physical relationships. A few months later, I noticed that I was the one initiating a lot of the physical intimacy and sometimes when I did, he said would say that I was “trying too hard to be sexy” (no one has ever said that to me in a relationship before) and it was a turnoff for him. There would be times when we would be around each other all day long working on a project at his house, not be physical the whole day, and when we lay down for bed, he would just say that he wanted to hold me, that he just wanted me to be there, but never initiate physical intimacy. I told him that it hurt my feelings and made me feel rejected; he apologized, but said that I just needed to “be patient.” He kept saying that he wanted sex to be more about intimacy than about physical needs, that this was his way of respecting me (I do believe this to a degree, but I also feel like a relationship should have some degree of physical intimacy that is mutually pursued).
There have been other pieces of our relationship that have surprised me; in my past relationships (I’ve had three serious relationships in my life before him) each guy, in my opinion, was romantic with me. They were thoughtful to write me sweet notes, leave me gifts on my car before I left for work, bought me flowers, planned surprise dates about things that were just about me, etc, and so of course, I did the same for them. In my current relationship, my boyfriend doesn’t do any of those things, even though I do them for him. I surprised him with expensive concert tickets, planned a huge birthday weekend for him, write him sweet notes from time to time, help him clean up his home when I’m over, make CD playlists for him, brought him food when he has a studio session, etc. He has done none of those things for me. Sometimes he’ll text me a sweet message. And he usually buys me gifts when he’s traveling. But no flowers, no sweet notes, no romantic gestures. He has even said that he thinks sending “good morning” texts is an “obligation.” I guess I would be more understanding about this if I felt like he wasn’t a romantic, feeling kind of person at all, but he is and has been in other relationships. He said that in his last relationship, he felt like he did all of the work and he likes being with someone who works for him (which I felt like was a shitty thing to say). He will frequently say he’s going to do something (call me before work when he’s out of town, take me to an event at town, call me to check in on me while I’m driving 8 hours through an ice storm) and then not follow through. I have talked to him about being inconsistent and he admits it’s a problem for him. It gets somewhat better, but then each act of inconsistency makes my heart hurt just a little bit. It also makes me struggle to believe him when he says he’s going to do things for me.
That being said, he calls me every day and we do see each other almost every day that he’s in town, even if he just comes by to say hi for a few minutes. He also defers to me when he’s making decisions, saying “I’ll check with the Mrs.” when a friend asks him to go out or stay a day longer when he travels. He also is so incredibly sweet when we’re together. He tells me that I’m beautiful every day, that he’s grateful for me, and has helped me through some difficult family drama that has come up in the past couple months. He tells me that I’m his safe place, a place of home for him, and just recently started calling me his “best friend.” Furthermore, he gave me a key to his house and encouraged me to stay there when he’s away. He’s said so often, “I love it when you’re around. It makes me a better person.”
He also tells me that he loves me every day. And he almost always says it first. I told him months ago that “I love you” is really important to me and that I didn’t want him to say it until he really saw a future with me. Stupidly, I accidentally said it first after we’d been dating for four months, but he was the one who kept saying it and it became a sense a safety for both of us.
Lastly, he listens to me when I express my hurt at his inconsistency or shortness and he always acknowledges my feelings, and ostensibly, tries harder to be more consistent and kind.
Anyway, he goes through these periods where he’s really excited about me – will call me and talk to me multiple times a day for hour-long conversations each time – and other times when he says he “needs some space” from me for a few days and will check in with me, but not much, maybe a couple texts or a ten minute phone conversation before bed. I feel like he always gets to choose this. He also can have some pretty explosive anger about, in my opinion, trivial things, like where a gas station is or a viewpoint that I express that he doesn’t agree with. He’s never called me names or physically hurt me, but his reticence can be cutting and he will often say that I’m projecting my neediness onto him. Which I struggle to understand. I feel like, if you’re in a committed relationship with a person that you say that you love, you take on the other person’s neediness to some degree.
There are a couple of other strange things that have happened recently. He is getting ready to make a move for his career and talks about it a lot, but hasn’t ever talked about it in relation to me (even though a few months ago he asked me, hypothetically, if I would move with him). When I brought it up, he said that he wasn’t ready to have that conversation yet. The second strange thing is that he told me that he’s had a few non-sexual dreams about a friend of mine that he’s met a couple times. He said that he’s had at least 3 dreams about her and he feels embarrassed about it because they were together in the dream. When I asked him if he was interested in pursuing something with her, he responded, “I don’t even know her.” Which, I told him later, hurt my feelings. I said that I thought that he should respond with “I want to be with you.” Later on, he said that he wanted to be with me, that he loved me, that he was grateful for me, etc. but it still makes me feel weird.
So, I guess, here are my questions: after 7 months, I feel like a person has shown a lot about themselves. There are several things in this relationship that make feel hurt or lonely at times (his inconsistency, not following through with what he says, his anger about trivial things, his need for control), but I wonder if they will get better after the relationship has more time, especially since “patience” is his mantra. His parents have a really strong marriage and he’s always talked about having a marriage like his parents. In fact, when I ask him about what he wants in life, his first thing is always “get married and have a family.” I wonder sometimes if he is going to wait to demonstrate those romantic things to me when he decides for sure that he wants to commit to me. I also wonder if those are things that I should give up desiring for a person who is really interesting, funny, and handsome. A friend of mine told me recently, “When you talk about [boyfriend], you never say anything about how he makes you feel good. You say ‘he’s interesting and creative and funny’ but you don’t really talk about how he makes you feel good and that seems like a problem to me.” Is she right?
TL;DR Is my creative boyfriend normal, lazy, or afraid? Am I normal or too needy? Do I stay with an inconsistent person who fascinates me, but makes me feel lonely and is teaching me to be independent or do I break off the relationship and hope that maybe I’ll find someone who parallels my romantic style?
There are several things in this relationship that make feel hurt or lonely at times (his inconsistency, not following through with what he says, his anger about trivial things, his need for control), but I wonder if they will get better after the relationship has more time
Nope. Never assume or plan on someone changing for the better. Assume they will always be exactly as they are NOW, and decide whether you want to live with that.
TL;DR Is my creative boyfriend normal, lazy, or afraid?
None of the above. What he IS, is just absolutely not as into you as you are into him. Bail.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Nope. Never assume or plan on someone changing for the better. Assume they will always be exactly as they are NOW, and decide whether you want to live with that.
TL;DR Is my creative boyfriend normal, lazy, or afraid?
None of the above. What he IS, is just absolutely not as into you as you are into him. Bail.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Best answer: Datapoint: I have never been in a relationship with constant daily texts, surprise presents in the car, dates that were "just about me", etc, and in fact would find that expectation really burdensome - it's a personal style thing, and I've always dated people who were equally low key. So I didn't find that part of your post to be a red flag.
But the cumulative effect of the anger thing, the "trying too hard to be sexy" thing, the unwillingness to let you initiate stuff and the dodginess about the move all suggest to me that while he may care for you very much, he isn't being what I'd expect from a typical good partner, and I would not wait around for stuff to get better. If there weren't so many issues, and if one of them wasn't the controllingness thing, it might be worthwhile to try to work on it, but I think it might be better to cut your losses.
posted by Frowner at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
But the cumulative effect of the anger thing, the "trying too hard to be sexy" thing, the unwillingness to let you initiate stuff and the dodginess about the move all suggest to me that while he may care for you very much, he isn't being what I'd expect from a typical good partner, and I would not wait around for stuff to get better. If there weren't so many issues, and if one of them wasn't the controllingness thing, it might be worthwhile to try to work on it, but I think it might be better to cut your losses.
posted by Frowner at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Explosive anger," sexual mismatch, weird sex- and gender-negative red flags ("trying too hard to be sexy"?!), and an absence of the little relationshippy things that matter to you (like notes and, to be honest, Level 102 thoughtfulness). I wouldn't waste more time analyzing his behavior and trying to ascertain whether he's "normal" or not. It doesn't matter. This isn't working for you, and it isn't what you want. DTMFA.
(And, for what it's worth, I don't think you're needy in the slightest.)
posted by sevensnowflakes at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
(And, for what it's worth, I don't think you're needy in the slightest.)
posted by sevensnowflakes at 10:45 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
You sound a little bit needy and he sounds withholding. That's a match made in hell.
posted by cecic at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by cecic at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [29 favorites]
It might be number 1 and it might be number 2, but it's definitely number 3.
When you've been married for ten years you have an obligation to each other to try to work through things. When you've been dating for a few months it's okay to say "This isn't working for me" and since it obviously isn't working for you then that's what you should do.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
When you've been married for ten years you have an obligation to each other to try to work through things. When you've been dating for a few months it's okay to say "This isn't working for me" and since it obviously isn't working for you then that's what you should do.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 10:47 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Other commenters will have much more insightful comments than I, but DTMFA. It's 2 and 3. You're not a good fit because he sucks.
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 10:48 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Enchanting Grasshopper at 10:48 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
This sounds very difficult and sad, I'm so sorry! It sounds like he's been trying to break up for a long time but has been too cowardly to just end things. Stringing you along like this is cruel, and you deserve better. Our actions are more important than our words, as you know; it sounds like it was a bit of a rebound for him at first, hence the initial excitement. It's one thing to be so excited about someone new -- and keep it up as the months go on -- but his telling you those dreams of a shared future right away was simply his projection rather than reality. At the time it may have felt romantic but looking back it seems rather creepy.
I agree it's definitely #3 and, like It's Never Lurgi said, perhaps #1 & #2. Good relationships bring out the best in us: it sounds like he's frustrated and you're very hurt, and I'd feel that way, too. His personality may be charming and his musical talents noteworthy but his behavior as a boyfriend is awful.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I agree it's definitely #3 and, like It's Never Lurgi said, perhaps #1 & #2. Good relationships bring out the best in us: it sounds like he's frustrated and you're very hurt, and I'd feel that way, too. His personality may be charming and his musical talents noteworthy but his behavior as a boyfriend is awful.
posted by smorgasbord at 10:50 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There's a power imbalance here and I don't think it's going to change. He maintains power by withholding affection, putting you down when you initiate things, and calling the shots in terms of when you're in contact. He's giving you things that are easy ("I love you's", keys to his apartment, words, bits of his time when he's around or needs support), but not giving you much in terms of actual demonstrative love.
You're being "needy" because you know something's not right and you're seeking signs that he really loves you.
DTMFA
posted by lafemma at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
You're being "needy" because you know something's not right and you're seeking signs that he really loves you.
DTMFA
posted by lafemma at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [28 favorites]
If you don't like the way things are going, you don't like the way things are going. That's okay -- whether there are major reasons that really can change, or whether you're just not feeling it.
Once you're in a relationship that doesn't feel like work, you'll realize just how MUCH work you've put in with relationships like this.
It's okay if you want something else. You've given it a good shot, and now you can try things a different way.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Once you're in a relationship that doesn't feel like work, you'll realize just how MUCH work you've put in with relationships like this.
It's okay if you want something else. You've given it a good shot, and now you can try things a different way.
posted by St. Hubbins at 10:52 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
FWIW I don't at all think that your boyfriend's behavior is BAD. It's just bad for YOU.
I would say that my boyfriend probably exhibits some similar personality traits to yours. He needs a ton of alone time, has a short fuse about some stuff I'd consider minor, etc. But the difference is that these things do not bother me, because I too need time to myself and sometimes am ill-tempered and etc. I hate sappy over the top relationship stuff and sometimes find constant contact irritating rather than reassuring. We would both be terrible partners for a lot of other people; but we are good partners for each other.
Our relationship styles, in other words, are compatible. We both feel that our needs are met. You're not feeling like your needs are met. And you know exactly what would have to happen to meet those needs--you're way ahead of the curve! So go find someone who loves the way you like; let your boyfriend go and find someone who is more on his wavelength too.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:55 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I would say that my boyfriend probably exhibits some similar personality traits to yours. He needs a ton of alone time, has a short fuse about some stuff I'd consider minor, etc. But the difference is that these things do not bother me, because I too need time to myself and sometimes am ill-tempered and etc. I hate sappy over the top relationship stuff and sometimes find constant contact irritating rather than reassuring. We would both be terrible partners for a lot of other people; but we are good partners for each other.
Our relationship styles, in other words, are compatible. We both feel that our needs are met. You're not feeling like your needs are met. And you know exactly what would have to happen to meet those needs--you're way ahead of the curve! So go find someone who loves the way you like; let your boyfriend go and find someone who is more on his wavelength too.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:55 AM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also think the specific romantic stuff is a little above and beyond average (nothing wrong with that, but it's not everybody's baseline) but yeah, that's not really the issue.
Words are cheap. Words are cheap. Words that give you and the person you're with a brief hit of warm, fuzzy feelings are especially cheap. If the things you're happy with are mostly words, and the things you aren't happy with are everything else, things aren't good.
[Also, did he actually say "OK, sounds good, so I guess we're exclusive" when you talked about exclusivity? Because "you're the only person I want to see" isn't the same thing and sometimes has an unspoken ". . . right now" attached.]
posted by ostro at 10:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
Words are cheap. Words are cheap. Words that give you and the person you're with a brief hit of warm, fuzzy feelings are especially cheap. If the things you're happy with are mostly words, and the things you aren't happy with are everything else, things aren't good.
[Also, did he actually say "OK, sounds good, so I guess we're exclusive" when you talked about exclusivity? Because "you're the only person I want to see" isn't the same thing and sometimes has an unspoken ". . . right now" attached.]
posted by ostro at 10:56 AM on January 27, 2016 [21 favorites]
You're not happy. He's not going to change. He's not that into you. Just because you're friends thought you'd make a good couple, THEY don't have to be with this guy.
It's okay to break up. He's moving, you want a different relationship. Just tell him, "I think it's best that we don't date anymore."
Then go no contact.
It's going to be VERY easy on his side, because he's already got a foot out the door. He might be a bit shocked that you initiated, but in the end it's going to be pretty drama free.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's okay to break up. He's moving, you want a different relationship. Just tell him, "I think it's best that we don't date anymore."
Then go no contact.
It's going to be VERY easy on his side, because he's already got a foot out the door. He might be a bit shocked that you initiated, but in the end it's going to be pretty drama free.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:57 AM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
If the person you're with cannot give you what you need, stop being with them. Don't amputate your needs.
You have bought into a "get better" narrative that does not exist. Staying with a shitty boyfriend may make him better...for the next girlfriend. Or, having known this guy, three or four girlfriends down the road.
The reason you feel so bad about all this is because it is a bad situation. Don't try to fix it by investing more time. Changing him is not something you have a right to. He's a human being who gets to be however he chooses to be. Like it, or leave.
Don't move in with him (he never intended to move in with you btw, unless you're going to pay all the rent) at the very least. Don't fuck up your financial life for this guy. You'll have to scramble to find somewhere else to live, but that is preferable than having your life wrecked for years after you move in to a place you can't afford with someone who will not help.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
You have bought into a "get better" narrative that does not exist. Staying with a shitty boyfriend may make him better...for the next girlfriend. Or, having known this guy, three or four girlfriends down the road.
The reason you feel so bad about all this is because it is a bad situation. Don't try to fix it by investing more time. Changing him is not something you have a right to. He's a human being who gets to be however he chooses to be. Like it, or leave.
Don't move in with him (he never intended to move in with you btw, unless you're going to pay all the rent) at the very least. Don't fuck up your financial life for this guy. You'll have to scramble to find somewhere else to live, but that is preferable than having your life wrecked for years after you move in to a place you can't afford with someone who will not help.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:59 AM on January 27, 2016 [11 favorites]
Help me understand if:
1) My boyfriend is awesome; I’m too needy – need to grow up in terms of relationship expectations.
2) My boyfriend sucks; he isn’t sure what he wants and is stringing me along so that he’s not alone.
3) We’re just not the right fit.
If (1), then break up and work on you so that you are not too needy in future relationships.
If (2), then break up and work on you so that you no longer make excuses for other people not pulling their weight in relationships.
If (3), then break up and work on you because hey, none of us is perfect, and maybe "work" just means date around to learn what's a better fit for you.
In the end it doesn't matter whether it's 1, 2, or 3. What matters is what you do to take care of yourself.
posted by headnsouth at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
1) My boyfriend is awesome; I’m too needy – need to grow up in terms of relationship expectations.
2) My boyfriend sucks; he isn’t sure what he wants and is stringing me along so that he’s not alone.
3) We’re just not the right fit.
If (1), then break up and work on you so that you are not too needy in future relationships.
If (2), then break up and work on you so that you no longer make excuses for other people not pulling their weight in relationships.
If (3), then break up and work on you because hey, none of us is perfect, and maybe "work" just means date around to learn what's a better fit for you.
In the end it doesn't matter whether it's 1, 2, or 3. What matters is what you do to take care of yourself.
posted by headnsouth at 11:05 AM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Have you guys even slept together yet? It's not clear from your question.
He sounds like he has huge issues with sex and intimacy, and it's only going to make you feel crazier as time goes on. Relationships succeed when you can express a different opinion without someone getting mad at you and initiate sex without being shamed about it, this relationship would still leave you feeling bad whether he regularly surprised you with flowers (something a seventh grader could do) or not.
posted by cakelite at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
He sounds like he has huge issues with sex and intimacy, and it's only going to make you feel crazier as time goes on. Relationships succeed when you can express a different opinion without someone getting mad at you and initiate sex without being shamed about it, this relationship would still leave you feeling bad whether he regularly surprised you with flowers (something a seventh grader could do) or not.
posted by cakelite at 11:19 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I agree with a few others - he sucks AND it's a bad fit.
I physically flinched where you wrote your guy accused you of "being too sexy" because you were initiating intimacy. Geez.
DTMFA.
ProTip: Any time someone trots out that old "patience routine" they are a controlling selfish asshole. Ditto that give you the keys to their place thing. No guy ever ever worth being with has given me the keys to his house in the manner you describe (he's witholding or away a lot, but here's the keys to his house as a panacea), but all the game playing assholes did this. I swear it's in their playbook or something.
posted by jbenben at 11:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
I physically flinched where you wrote your guy accused you of "being too sexy" because you were initiating intimacy. Geez.
DTMFA.
ProTip: Any time someone trots out that old "patience routine" they are a controlling selfish asshole. Ditto that give you the keys to their place thing. No guy ever ever worth being with has given me the keys to his house in the manner you describe (he's witholding or away a lot, but here's the keys to his house as a panacea), but all the game playing assholes did this. I swear it's in their playbook or something.
posted by jbenben at 11:24 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Tell him you no longer want to be monogamous and start dating other people. If you've already slept with this guy, you can remain sexually exclusive for a while if you want. But as soon as some new romantic guy comes knocking on your door with flowers, break up with old guy. (Kind of like polyamory/an open relationship, except looking for external romance instead of sex! Get it? He can be your sex partner, but you need to go looking for you romantic partner.)
If he won't agree to date non-exclusively, break up now.
posted by quincunx at 11:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
If he won't agree to date non-exclusively, break up now.
posted by quincunx at 11:28 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It sounds to me like this guy has a madonna-whore complex. You can be his 'best friend', but that means you can't also be sexy. In other words, he's unable to interact with all of you.
He seems to appreciate you as a surrogate parent, a friend, and a housekeeper. Not as a romantic partner. Plus, I do agree, he's got issues with intimacy and sex. In fact he's got more issues than National Geographic.
He is not offering you what you need right now. That's not going to change. Don't stick around waiting for that to happen, because it won't. I'm very sorry.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:32 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
He seems to appreciate you as a surrogate parent, a friend, and a housekeeper. Not as a romantic partner. Plus, I do agree, he's got issues with intimacy and sex. In fact he's got more issues than National Geographic.
He is not offering you what you need right now. That's not going to change. Don't stick around waiting for that to happen, because it won't. I'm very sorry.
posted by Too-Ticky at 11:32 AM on January 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Best answer: Just about every sentence in the paragraph that starts with There were some other strange things that he wanted me to “be patient” about.... Go straight to dump- do not pass go- do not collect $200.
Feigning the whole "respect you" thing for the reason he doesn't want to even kiss you is a level of self centered-ness, condescension, and pedantry that goes beyond the pail. Many would be revolted by hearing someone tell them that they are “trying too hard to be sexy". Don't you deserve someone who can't get enough of how sexy you are? Why sell yourself short?
posted by incolorinred at 11:38 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Feigning the whole "respect you" thing for the reason he doesn't want to even kiss you is a level of self centered-ness, condescension, and pedantry that goes beyond the pail. Many would be revolted by hearing someone tell them that they are “trying too hard to be sexy". Don't you deserve someone who can't get enough of how sexy you are? Why sell yourself short?
posted by incolorinred at 11:38 AM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
You should be with someone who is delighted when you initiate physical intimacy. I don't know whether this is a set of weird hang-ups he has or whether he just isn't into you as much or in the way that works for you, but the relationship just isn't quite working for you. He doesn't have to be a bad guy and your needs and wants don't have to be the same as everyone else's for it to make sense to end the relationship.
posted by Area Man at 11:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Area Man at 11:43 AM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ugh. I forgot about how he wouldn't kiss you for months!
This is guy is probably really great on a certain level, but up close and personal? NOPE. I'm sure this is why your friend group thinks he is so great, they've never dated him.
Nthing Madonna- whore complex (which is the fucking worst, most self-esteem killing attitude to deal with as a woman) and that he has more issues than National Geographic. He has so many issues, that one of the worst (not kissing you, giving you some spiel about respect) got left out of my original comment. I read your question and was trying to see it all from your shoes, so much so that I speed bumped this super deep red waving flag.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is guy is probably really great on a certain level, but up close and personal? NOPE. I'm sure this is why your friend group thinks he is so great, they've never dated him.
Nthing Madonna- whore complex (which is the fucking worst, most self-esteem killing attitude to deal with as a woman) and that he has more issues than National Geographic. He has so many issues, that one of the worst (not kissing you, giving you some spiel about respect) got left out of my original comment. I read your question and was trying to see it all from your shoes, so much so that I speed bumped this super deep red waving flag.
RUN.
posted by jbenben at 12:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
It sounds like you have a good idea of what you need and like, and he doesn't have a good idea of what he needs and likes.
I could totally pass on the flowers and love notes, but if you two don't have that early in a relationship, gotta get in each other's pants urgency, well, I think that's very important.
posted by Occula at 12:15 PM on January 27, 2016
I could totally pass on the flowers and love notes, but if you two don't have that early in a relationship, gotta get in each other's pants urgency, well, I think that's very important.
posted by Occula at 12:15 PM on January 27, 2016
Dude this guy isn't immature; he's creepy and withholding and manipulative and just... weak. Don't waste any more time here because this is going nowhere good.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:15 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 12:15 PM on January 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think there's anything wrong with this guy. He has had a committed and romantic relationship in the past so he's clearly capable of it. He does not have one with you. That's all. You can hang around and accept the humiliating way he treats you in the hope that eventually he'll learn to appreciate you, but I am not convinced he's given you any reason to believe things will change for you. He's planning a move, and you are not even in the picture. I mean, how much less of a committment can you ask from a boyfriend?
posted by Dragonness at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016
posted by Dragonness at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016
There are men who out there who won't keep you guessing constantly. You deserve someone who will make it his business to keep you reassured.
posted by TheRedArmy at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TheRedArmy at 12:30 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I dated this guy (figuratively,) he has a wife, clients he charms, and others. You are relief for slow times.
DTMFA, but, make it seem like it was his idea. These types always wave around their great, last, lost love. Did you plan to be a baggage handler, when you were a kid?
posted by Oyéah at 12:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
DTMFA, but, make it seem like it was his idea. These types always wave around their great, last, lost love. Did you plan to be a baggage handler, when you were a kid?
posted by Oyéah at 12:33 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Eh, you guys just don't understand each other yet. Sometimes learning each others' language is really complicated.
After about 18 months of dating—so, around Thanksgiving of this year—you'll totally, finally understand him.
Then you'll break up.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
After about 18 months of dating—so, around Thanksgiving of this year—you'll totally, finally understand him.
Then you'll break up.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think your friend sounds like a smart cookie and like she is right on the money. You should absolutely listen to her advice about this dude.
posted by colfax at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by colfax at 12:43 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
It sounds like what you have is a friend - and not even a good friend, one who stonewalls, won't come clean and jerks you around a lot. But he won't kiss you, isn't interested in any kind of sex or intimacy. He keeps trying to show you with his actions that he's not interested because he's not mature enough to use his words and he keeps hoping you'll get the hint and do his dirty work for him and break up.
Here's the thing that you really only understand when it happens - when the right guy comes along, you don't have all these questions, you're not second guessing his motivations, trying to figure out if he likes you or what's going on. It's not hard, it's fun and easy. Because when a man is really into you, he makes sure you know it because he doesn't want to lose you. Dump this jerk and go find THAT guy and don't stop until you do.
posted by Jubey at 12:55 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Here's the thing that you really only understand when it happens - when the right guy comes along, you don't have all these questions, you're not second guessing his motivations, trying to figure out if he likes you or what's going on. It's not hard, it's fun and easy. Because when a man is really into you, he makes sure you know it because he doesn't want to lose you. Dump this jerk and go find THAT guy and don't stop until you do.
posted by Jubey at 12:55 PM on January 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Do I wait for things to get better or is it a bad fit?
Short answer: no, and yes.
Long answer: Life is too short to be unhappy. Don't do things that make you unhappy, which includes staying in this relationship. How long are you going to wait around for things to get better? And what are you going to do if things don't get better in that timeframe?
posted by Solomon at 1:13 PM on January 27, 2016
Short answer: no, and yes.
Long answer: Life is too short to be unhappy. Don't do things that make you unhappy, which includes staying in this relationship. How long are you going to wait around for things to get better? And what are you going to do if things don't get better in that timeframe?
posted by Solomon at 1:13 PM on January 27, 2016
Response by poster: Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. I really wish that there were more balance in your replies, especially because I really do care about this guy, but I kind of was expecting what you all have been saying.
I guess I should have included this in the original message because one person kind of brought this up, but every time I thought about ending things with him, I would think, "But he's got so many friends!" He really is a very gregarious person, is very charming and kind of "cool", and just plain has a lot of people who care about him. Including people that I've known for years (and really trust). Several of them have really encouraged our relationship, even when I've expressed doubts and confusion. I've thought that he might have some touches of narcissism, but he is actually sensitive and can be quite caring. Can anyone speak to this?
I will say, regarding that he's been in relationships before and just doesn't want to commit to me - I've thought about that and thought that maybe he just isn't interested in me in particular, but he's told me that he has had the same issues I've brought up to him in his other relationships. For instance, he's said that he struggles with his temper; with his ex, he would get angry with her when she cried about things. In fact, he told me that I "should have seen how [he] used to be" (ostensibly, because he doesn't get mad at me if I cry?). I've thought this was a red flag from the start, but wondered if perhaps some normal men just don't like to deal with women crying (I grew up with just a single mom, so I'm not an expert on men by any means). He's literally said to me, "I know I'm a bad boyfriend. I'm sorry." Which I took to meant that he acknowledged his error and wanted to work on it. It sounds crazy when I type and read it back, but I thought that that was just something that could be dealt with.
He also has said to me before that of all the women he's dated, he feels so connected and close with me. He's said that he never felt like he could really have real conversations with other women, that he would date them just because they're pretty and, by proxy, made him look important. I think that I heard him say, "You're a woman of substance, not just a pretty face."
Ugh. Reading all these red flags. Red flag after red flag after red flag.
posted by orangesky4 at 1:51 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
I guess I should have included this in the original message because one person kind of brought this up, but every time I thought about ending things with him, I would think, "But he's got so many friends!" He really is a very gregarious person, is very charming and kind of "cool", and just plain has a lot of people who care about him. Including people that I've known for years (and really trust). Several of them have really encouraged our relationship, even when I've expressed doubts and confusion. I've thought that he might have some touches of narcissism, but he is actually sensitive and can be quite caring. Can anyone speak to this?
I will say, regarding that he's been in relationships before and just doesn't want to commit to me - I've thought about that and thought that maybe he just isn't interested in me in particular, but he's told me that he has had the same issues I've brought up to him in his other relationships. For instance, he's said that he struggles with his temper; with his ex, he would get angry with her when she cried about things. In fact, he told me that I "should have seen how [he] used to be" (ostensibly, because he doesn't get mad at me if I cry?). I've thought this was a red flag from the start, but wondered if perhaps some normal men just don't like to deal with women crying (I grew up with just a single mom, so I'm not an expert on men by any means). He's literally said to me, "I know I'm a bad boyfriend. I'm sorry." Which I took to meant that he acknowledged his error and wanted to work on it. It sounds crazy when I type and read it back, but I thought that that was just something that could be dealt with.
He also has said to me before that of all the women he's dated, he feels so connected and close with me. He's said that he never felt like he could really have real conversations with other women, that he would date them just because they're pretty and, by proxy, made him look important. I think that I heard him say, "You're a woman of substance, not just a pretty face."
Ugh. Reading all these red flags. Red flag after red flag after red flag.
posted by orangesky4 at 1:51 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Nah, dump him. He knows what you'd like and he's withholding it on purpose because he is probably kind of using you to inflate his ego after being rejected. Like you're proof that a woman is capable of loving him and he probably will do this whole not participating thing at the expense of your heart. Which is very low, just using someone else to heal. If you were not as invested and hopeful, it might have not been as crappy, but he knows and he's using it to shore up his dumb ego, so he throws you crumbs that make it seem like he's invested when it's really just to make him feel better. It's dumb. He'll keep doing this, then dump you, and pass on the pain. (I'll bet he'll even wax all philosophical about you in some story where he's given himself a hero narrative where he'll make himself sound real noble when he's pretty okay with having made you feel shitty and anxious and nervous.)
So dump him, because he's a waste of time and love and energy. Go meet other guys and you'll find losers but you'll also be able to root them out and become adept at finding guys who are eager to have you as a girlfriend and actually aren't going to make you anxious because they want to take care of your heart. Having Anxiety in a relationship just Breaks down your sense of self esteem and self worth. Don't do that to yourself. Don't sacrifice yourself for some emotionally constipated guy when there are really awesome guys out there who are ready to build something real with you. Start by walking away because, honestly, no good comes from spending the amount of time and energy you did trying to describe a relationship that confuses you this much. Walk away and you'll be able to breathe again and have your anxiety vanish and get your real life back. And you'll find a better relationship. You just have to walk away from this guy.
posted by discopolo at 1:57 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
So dump him, because he's a waste of time and love and energy. Go meet other guys and you'll find losers but you'll also be able to root them out and become adept at finding guys who are eager to have you as a girlfriend and actually aren't going to make you anxious because they want to take care of your heart. Having Anxiety in a relationship just Breaks down your sense of self esteem and self worth. Don't do that to yourself. Don't sacrifice yourself for some emotionally constipated guy when there are really awesome guys out there who are ready to build something real with you. Start by walking away because, honestly, no good comes from spending the amount of time and energy you did trying to describe a relationship that confuses you this much. Walk away and you'll be able to breathe again and have your anxiety vanish and get your real life back. And you'll find a better relationship. You just have to walk away from this guy.
posted by discopolo at 1:57 PM on January 27, 2016 [9 favorites]
"I know I'm a bad boyfriend. I'm sorry." Which I took to meant that he acknowledged his error and wanted to work on it. It sounds crazy when I type and read it back, but I thought that that was just something that could be dealt with.
Take this to mean just what he said: "I know I'm a bad boyfriend." He's sorry that he is - but he is and that's it. I don't think he meant he wants to work on it. People tell you who they are. He told you.
I am sorry, I know this is hard. You deserve to be happy.
posted by Lescha at 2:01 PM on January 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
Take this to mean just what he said: "I know I'm a bad boyfriend." He's sorry that he is - but he is and that's it. I don't think he meant he wants to work on it. People tell you who they are. He told you.
I am sorry, I know this is hard. You deserve to be happy.
posted by Lescha at 2:01 PM on January 27, 2016 [18 favorites]
But he's got so many friends!
Oh, but it's easy - sometimes even more fun and interesting - to be friends with difficult people, as long as they're not actual garbage. He's not good up close, but most adult friendships are compartmental and not especially invested.
I know lots of people who are dynamic and charming and funny and creative (often at least quasi-professionally, since this is LA) and even nice, as far as I ever have to deal with them. They seem cool. But I know about some and can infer about some others that a fair few of them are pretty problematic behind closed doors. I do care about them, but I wouldn't live with them, get financially entangled with them, or put myself in an emotionally dependent situation with them.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Oh, but it's easy - sometimes even more fun and interesting - to be friends with difficult people, as long as they're not actual garbage. He's not good up close, but most adult friendships are compartmental and not especially invested.
I know lots of people who are dynamic and charming and funny and creative (often at least quasi-professionally, since this is LA) and even nice, as far as I ever have to deal with them. They seem cool. But I know about some and can infer about some others that a fair few of them are pretty problematic behind closed doors. I do care about them, but I wouldn't live with them, get financially entangled with them, or put myself in an emotionally dependent situation with them.
posted by Lyn Never at 2:02 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Best answer: Btw, I'm not saying he's not a good guy with friends and probably a decent heart---he just isn't good for you.
Walking away from crumby boyfriends you love is tough for every woman. There's something about the pushy-pulley dynamic that can really hook us in, you end up just jonesing to be reassured, because it's so confusing and when the anxiety is temporarily relieved by something that temporarily reassures you and temporarily relieves your anxiety---yeah, that's addictive. That's what really makes you feel heart hungry and keeps you attached to him.
It's hard hard hard to walk away, but it's important to make yourself do it in relationships where you find yourself anxious and chasing the genuine affection and love and basic attention that's absent. It's good practice because the truth is is that how this guy makes you feel matters. Yeah, it's hard getting over a relationship like this, especially because of this dynamic, and yes, dating is tough, there are lots of clowns out there, you'll need some time to heal and figure out how to stand tall again after losing the emotional investment you made, but you're just going to have to do that to make sure you're taking care of yourself and your heart. Don't give up. Everything will be okay, all women find themselves in at least a few of these relationships with this particular dynamic. It's normal. It's a painful but normal and necessary learning experience, IMHO. But remember: you tried your best and then some, you put both your feet in and kept your heart open, you were loving and caring, you posted this question because you genuinely were trying to give it your best shot. That's pretty great. You can leave him with your head held high and move on without regrets.
posted by discopolo at 2:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Walking away from crumby boyfriends you love is tough for every woman. There's something about the pushy-pulley dynamic that can really hook us in, you end up just jonesing to be reassured, because it's so confusing and when the anxiety is temporarily relieved by something that temporarily reassures you and temporarily relieves your anxiety---yeah, that's addictive. That's what really makes you feel heart hungry and keeps you attached to him.
It's hard hard hard to walk away, but it's important to make yourself do it in relationships where you find yourself anxious and chasing the genuine affection and love and basic attention that's absent. It's good practice because the truth is is that how this guy makes you feel matters. Yeah, it's hard getting over a relationship like this, especially because of this dynamic, and yes, dating is tough, there are lots of clowns out there, you'll need some time to heal and figure out how to stand tall again after losing the emotional investment you made, but you're just going to have to do that to make sure you're taking care of yourself and your heart. Don't give up. Everything will be okay, all women find themselves in at least a few of these relationships with this particular dynamic. It's normal. It's a painful but normal and necessary learning experience, IMHO. But remember: you tried your best and then some, you put both your feet in and kept your heart open, you were loving and caring, you posted this question because you genuinely were trying to give it your best shot. That's pretty great. You can leave him with your head held high and move on without regrets.
posted by discopolo at 2:16 PM on January 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
A friend of mine told me recently, “When you talk about [boyfriend], you never say anything about how he makes you feel good. You say ‘he’s interesting and creative and funny’ but you don’t really talk about how he makes you feel good and that seems like a problem to me.” Is she right?
Your friend is absolutely right.
Look, this guy, aka Mr. Flinchy, isn't a horrible human being: it's not like he's sacrificing kittens or shoveling nuns into ovens. He has friends and people who care about him because his intimacy issues don't preclude him from being a good friend to those people. However, because of those same intimacy issues, he's not a good boyfriend FOR YOU. Your needs and wants are legitimate — it's okay to need them! So often, 'needy' is shorthand for 'needing things I'm unwilling to even try to provide.'
Relationships generally don't get better as they progress, if by 'better,' you mean 'acts more into me.' The beginning of the relationship is the most into you that he will ever be. That's why infatuation and limerence are things, you know? There are plenty of other men out there who are also really interesting and funny and handsome, who will be thrilled and delighted that you write them love notes and burn them CDs and want to take their pants off. Let Mr. Flinchy move without you, and go find those men.
posted by culfinglin at 3:49 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Your friend is absolutely right.
Look, this guy, aka Mr. Flinchy, isn't a horrible human being: it's not like he's sacrificing kittens or shoveling nuns into ovens. He has friends and people who care about him because his intimacy issues don't preclude him from being a good friend to those people. However, because of those same intimacy issues, he's not a good boyfriend FOR YOU. Your needs and wants are legitimate — it's okay to need them! So often, 'needy' is shorthand for 'needing things I'm unwilling to even try to provide.'
Relationships generally don't get better as they progress, if by 'better,' you mean 'acts more into me.' The beginning of the relationship is the most into you that he will ever be. That's why infatuation and limerence are things, you know? There are plenty of other men out there who are also really interesting and funny and handsome, who will be thrilled and delighted that you write them love notes and burn them CDs and want to take their pants off. Let Mr. Flinchy move without you, and go find those men.
posted by culfinglin at 3:49 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I dated this guy (figuratively,) he has a wife
I dated this guy twice, he was gay.
I'm not saying your boyfriend is gay, but I AM saying he is not sexually attracted to you, which really is the same idea on the micro level.
Break up yesterday, unless you want to, years later, finally get into a good relationship with a guy who DOES want you, and subsequently spend the first 6 or 7 months of sexytimes acting like a straight up loon trying not to be too sexy, approach too much, or make too many sexual requests. It's soul-killing.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
I dated this guy twice, he was gay.
I'm not saying your boyfriend is gay, but I AM saying he is not sexually attracted to you, which really is the same idea on the micro level.
Break up yesterday, unless you want to, years later, finally get into a good relationship with a guy who DOES want you, and subsequently spend the first 6 or 7 months of sexytimes acting like a straight up loon trying not to be too sexy, approach too much, or make too many sexual requests. It's soul-killing.
posted by chainsofreedom at 4:09 PM on January 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
I'm not going to pass judgement on whether either one of you is right or wrong, because that really isn't the issue. He's right for someone, and you're right for someone, but this isn't that relationship. It all boils down to this:
When it's right, it's easy. (WIRIE)
That's it. That's the answer to so very many early-stage relationship questions. And by early-stage, I mean the first two years, at least. If it's not easy now, when you're all starry eyed, when you're as young and attractive as you're ever going to be in this relationship, then it sure as hell ain't going to be easy when the shiny has worn off, when you've got wrinkles and quirks and annoying habits and medical problems and unpleasant relatives to deal with. You're not happy now, when everything should be dreamy. You deserve to be happy. I would move on.
posted by MexicanYenta at 4:32 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
When it's right, it's easy. (WIRIE)
That's it. That's the answer to so very many early-stage relationship questions. And by early-stage, I mean the first two years, at least. If it's not easy now, when you're all starry eyed, when you're as young and attractive as you're ever going to be in this relationship, then it sure as hell ain't going to be easy when the shiny has worn off, when you've got wrinkles and quirks and annoying habits and medical problems and unpleasant relatives to deal with. You're not happy now, when everything should be dreamy. You deserve to be happy. I would move on.
posted by MexicanYenta at 4:32 PM on January 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
The concept of neediness is troubling, it kindof seems like an element of pick up artist technique. He's either up for meeting your needs or he isn't. Guys who toss around the needy term often end up in relationships with needy women....he meets her needs but not one of the needy women because he didn't like them the right way. Your needs are not the problem...
posted by txtwinkletoes at 5:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by txtwinkletoes at 5:53 PM on January 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
"he would date them just because they're pretty and, by proxy, made him look important."
In other words: he admits to using women to boost his ego, without consideration for them as human beings.
I think he loves that you're in love with him. I'm sorry.
posted by blackzinfandel at 11:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
In other words: he admits to using women to boost his ego, without consideration for them as human beings.
I think he loves that you're in love with him. I'm sorry.
posted by blackzinfandel at 11:38 PM on January 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
He's literally said to me, "I know I'm a bad boyfriend. I'm sorry." Which I took to meant that he acknowledged his error and wanted to work on it.
No, dude. That's not what this means. What this means is that he's a guy who lives in a world where his needs come first and that's natural and right and the Correct Way of Things. In this world, you asking for your needs to be met is actually morally wrong and shocking because of course your needs are secondary- second place is where your needs belong. That is proper and just and right. Of course he gets leeway for being a bad boyfriend! The important struggle in life is the struggle he has with himself, don't you see that? You are a secondary character. He is the hero.
His struggle with himself is noble and understandable. Your patience is required because he knows his story will end in the best way. How can it not? How can you not want to be patient and see how his fascinating story of his inner growth and struggle turns out? How can you not want to be a prop in the backdrop while this goes on? It's more than you'd get by yourself, certainly, I mean, let's all just be real. Shouldn't you just feel lucky to get some of his residual sparkle?
He knows he is a bad boyfriend. He just doesn't care. Because his moral obligation is not to you. It is to his inner struggle. Being a good boyfriend goes on the chopping block as a sacrifice because he has more important things to do right now. Like discover himself.
posted by quincunx at 8:20 AM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
No, dude. That's not what this means. What this means is that he's a guy who lives in a world where his needs come first and that's natural and right and the Correct Way of Things. In this world, you asking for your needs to be met is actually morally wrong and shocking because of course your needs are secondary- second place is where your needs belong. That is proper and just and right. Of course he gets leeway for being a bad boyfriend! The important struggle in life is the struggle he has with himself, don't you see that? You are a secondary character. He is the hero.
His struggle with himself is noble and understandable. Your patience is required because he knows his story will end in the best way. How can it not? How can you not want to be patient and see how his fascinating story of his inner growth and struggle turns out? How can you not want to be a prop in the backdrop while this goes on? It's more than you'd get by yourself, certainly, I mean, let's all just be real. Shouldn't you just feel lucky to get some of his residual sparkle?
He knows he is a bad boyfriend. He just doesn't care. Because his moral obligation is not to you. It is to his inner struggle. Being a good boyfriend goes on the chopping block as a sacrifice because he has more important things to do right now. Like discover himself.
posted by quincunx at 8:20 AM on January 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
I guess I should have included this in the original message because one person kind of brought this up, but every time I thought about ending things with him, I would think, "But he's got so many friends!" He really is a very gregarious person, is very charming and kind of "cool", and just plain has a lot of people who care about him. Including people that I've known for years (and really trust). Several of them have really encouraged our relationship, even when I've expressed doubts and confusion. I've thought that he might have some touches of narcissism, but he is actually sensitive and can be quite caring. Can anyone speak to this?
Thing 1: Dating someone and being their friend (even a close friend) are extremely different things. I have numerous friends who I love dearly and 100% appreciate having in my life, but who I would never in a million years want to date. We are very compatible as friends, and very not compatible as romantic partners. And similarly, there are some people who are - in a general sense - totally awesome people and awesome friends, but are dealing with emotional shit that makes them non-awesome romantic partners (at least for the moment).
Thing 2: If part of your concern here is losing access to this cool group of friends who you like hanging out with, I would acknowledge that this is a real loss, but also an important reason to break up! I remember when I was considering breaking up with my college boyfriend, I had this moment of intense sadness over the fact that I was probably never going to see his mom again, who I'd become really close to and for quite a while thought might one day be my mother-in-law. Then I realized that if I was sadder about losing the relationship with my boyfriend's mom than I was losing the relationship WITH MY ACTUAL BOYFRIEND, that was probably a sign that it was time to end things. Maybe you'll be able to continue friendships with at least some of this cool group of people, or maybe not, but either way I think this is a sign that the relationship is not going in a good direction.
Thing 3: Finally, if part of your concern here is that you'll get pushback from people about the breakup, I recommend prepping a few stock phrases and repeating them over and over -- things like "You know, we just weren't a good fit." If people push you, I'd say something along the lines of "I don't want to speak ill of a mutual friend or put you in the middle." Your friends who aren't part of this guy's friends circle are the people to bitch to about your various reasons for the break up. The best way to try to maintain mutual friendships is to not put people in a place of having to take a side. (Unless, of course, the person really has done something terrible, in which case I think it's fine to share that -- but in this case it sounds more like incompatibility or maturity issues rather than your boyfriend doing something like cheating or abuse.)
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:09 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Thing 1: Dating someone and being their friend (even a close friend) are extremely different things. I have numerous friends who I love dearly and 100% appreciate having in my life, but who I would never in a million years want to date. We are very compatible as friends, and very not compatible as romantic partners. And similarly, there are some people who are - in a general sense - totally awesome people and awesome friends, but are dealing with emotional shit that makes them non-awesome romantic partners (at least for the moment).
Thing 2: If part of your concern here is losing access to this cool group of friends who you like hanging out with, I would acknowledge that this is a real loss, but also an important reason to break up! I remember when I was considering breaking up with my college boyfriend, I had this moment of intense sadness over the fact that I was probably never going to see his mom again, who I'd become really close to and for quite a while thought might one day be my mother-in-law. Then I realized that if I was sadder about losing the relationship with my boyfriend's mom than I was losing the relationship WITH MY ACTUAL BOYFRIEND, that was probably a sign that it was time to end things. Maybe you'll be able to continue friendships with at least some of this cool group of people, or maybe not, but either way I think this is a sign that the relationship is not going in a good direction.
Thing 3: Finally, if part of your concern here is that you'll get pushback from people about the breakup, I recommend prepping a few stock phrases and repeating them over and over -- things like "You know, we just weren't a good fit." If people push you, I'd say something along the lines of "I don't want to speak ill of a mutual friend or put you in the middle." Your friends who aren't part of this guy's friends circle are the people to bitch to about your various reasons for the break up. The best way to try to maintain mutual friendships is to not put people in a place of having to take a side. (Unless, of course, the person really has done something terrible, in which case I think it's fine to share that -- but in this case it sounds more like incompatibility or maturity issues rather than your boyfriend doing something like cheating or abuse.)
posted by rainbowbrite at 12:09 PM on January 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: From a Mefite who wishes to remain anonymous:
I thought we could work on things like "you're trying too hard to be sexy" and "it turns me off when you come on to me, why do you have to be so in my face with your sexual desire?." It's just going to make you crazy. Don't be me. It's been 20 years. I gave him the best 20 years of my adult life. It hasn't changed. The only thing that has changed is that I used to be confident in my ability to appeal to at least a small segment of the male population. I used to be confident and fun in bed. Now it's just ... meh.posted by LobsterMitten at 2:46 PM on January 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
I'm traveling for work right now and had someone hit on me last night, like REALLY hit on me, and it's been so long since I felt desirable, my brain completely snapped. I spent the night sobbing in a hotel room because I literally could not process the fact that someone would want to have sex with me.
Don't be me.
Your boyfriend (is he still your boyfriend?) sounds like he has dismissive tendencies (attachment theory). Some classical dismissive characteristics:
- Feeling harassed for being asked to respond to messages
- Inconsistent with staying in touch
- Making you feel like this is on you, putting any requests for reassurance back on your neediness
- Noone being able to measure up to the one that got away (the broken engagement). Often dismissives have a story of a long-distance relationship.
- Saying they are not ready to commit but continuing to stay in the relationship
- Avoiding physical closeness
Red red flags
- Not wanting to be in a relationship with you when you had already built a sold foundation and had already been emotionally vulnerable with one another
- Doesn’t want or shies away from a physically intimate relationship
- Not following up on promises (if he said hey I don’t know if I’ll be able to call x night because I have a gig, fair enough; if he promises to call and doesn’t but it is a once off and he calls later to apologise, fair enough; if he makes you feel needy when he doesn’t follow up on a promise, not cool; if he consistently breaks promises, this should tell you something about where you are on his priority list)
- Is moving away but doesn’t even discuss this with you!!!! ( He is not deferring to you on this decision).
- His refusal to take responsibility for any of his behaviors and making excuses instead (you are too needy/i respect you too much/ i'm not ready to have a conversation/ i need patience)
Dismissives tend to bring out insecurities in people who are not “needy” but because their lack of consistent communication and reticence around granting reassurance make you question yourself. Everybody will have insecure moments but you really seem to have this in check and have legitimate cause for concern.
posted by mossy_george at 6:42 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
- Feeling harassed for being asked to respond to messages
- Inconsistent with staying in touch
- Making you feel like this is on you, putting any requests for reassurance back on your neediness
- Noone being able to measure up to the one that got away (the broken engagement). Often dismissives have a story of a long-distance relationship.
- Saying they are not ready to commit but continuing to stay in the relationship
- Avoiding physical closeness
Red red flags
- Not wanting to be in a relationship with you when you had already built a sold foundation and had already been emotionally vulnerable with one another
- Doesn’t want or shies away from a physically intimate relationship
- Not following up on promises (if he said hey I don’t know if I’ll be able to call x night because I have a gig, fair enough; if he promises to call and doesn’t but it is a once off and he calls later to apologise, fair enough; if he makes you feel needy when he doesn’t follow up on a promise, not cool; if he consistently breaks promises, this should tell you something about where you are on his priority list)
- Is moving away but doesn’t even discuss this with you!!!! ( He is not deferring to you on this decision).
- His refusal to take responsibility for any of his behaviors and making excuses instead (you are too needy/i respect you too much/ i'm not ready to have a conversation/ i need patience)
Dismissives tend to bring out insecurities in people who are not “needy” but because their lack of consistent communication and reticence around granting reassurance make you question yourself. Everybody will have insecure moments but you really seem to have this in check and have legitimate cause for concern.
posted by mossy_george at 6:42 AM on March 30, 2016 [1 favorite]
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You deserve someone who is into you - emotionally and sexually* - and who doesn't expect endless patience, or stonewalls you by endless "be patient" pap. Feel free to DTMFA.
*he just may have a low libido, BUT, he should be discussing this with you like a grownup and not making you feel bad for desiring him.
posted by Rosie M. Banks at 10:44 AM on January 27, 2016 [10 favorites]