That's what home should be.
January 19, 2016 9:39 AM Subscribe
Can you help educate me on what a modern home heating system should look like?
We are in the preliminary stages of looking into a new full-house heating system, and I'm hoping you all can give me some basic 101 level guidance in what modern home heating systems look like in historic homes, so we can avoid going into our conversations with heating contractors looking like complete n00bs.
What we have now: We live in a three-story 1913 Queen Anne style house, with a forced hot water heating system which heats the rooms through radiators. We have an oil furnace which provides both heat and hot water. The system is controlled by a single thermostat in a downstairs room. Functionally (because we keep doors closed to preserve heat) this leaves us with three "warm" rooms downstairs during the winter (the room with the thermostat plus the living room and one other room) and the rest of the house (one room downstairs, plus the second floor (bedrooms & full bath) and third floor (playroom/craft room) pretty darn cold for most of the day. We can keep the bathroom upstairs fairly warm simply by keeping the door closed, but otherwise the staircase becomes a big chimney that blows cold air up through the middle of the house.
Our house still has some insulation problems, but assume for this question that we are doing everything possible in terms of weather-striping, insulating windows and so on.
Because the heat is hot water, we do have some issues with water temp being variable during cold-weather months, although this is not a problem in the warmer months.
We live in Maine, so cold weather is really cold (it was below zero this morning) and hot weather is hot, but we're not interested in any kind of home cooling system, just heat.
Where we would like to be: Natural gas instead of oil. (I would like to install solar but our house is not suitable for it.) Being able to use "zones" in order to make it warm for periods of time in some areas (like the 3rd floor) while keeping the bedrooms cooler. Less variation in water temp during the winter.
To be blunt, I would really like to be able to use more than three rooms of my house during the coldest part of the winter. I don't need the bedrooms to be warm, but last night (even though it was 65 degrees in the "warm rooms" downstairs I was wearing gloves while sewing and that's not ok. I want to not be cold all the time.
Things I don't quite understand yet: Is it possible to do zones with radiators? In general, how does zoned heating work (ie: is there a central command, or are there adjustable thermostats in each zone?). How do we evaluate what furnace is right for us? We have in mind roughly that this conversion will cost about $20K (big house, old pipes), but is that actually too low? What would be warning signs that would warn you away from a contractor?
We are in the preliminary stages of looking into a new full-house heating system, and I'm hoping you all can give me some basic 101 level guidance in what modern home heating systems look like in historic homes, so we can avoid going into our conversations with heating contractors looking like complete n00bs.
What we have now: We live in a three-story 1913 Queen Anne style house, with a forced hot water heating system which heats the rooms through radiators. We have an oil furnace which provides both heat and hot water. The system is controlled by a single thermostat in a downstairs room. Functionally (because we keep doors closed to preserve heat) this leaves us with three "warm" rooms downstairs during the winter (the room with the thermostat plus the living room and one other room) and the rest of the house (one room downstairs, plus the second floor (bedrooms & full bath) and third floor (playroom/craft room) pretty darn cold for most of the day. We can keep the bathroom upstairs fairly warm simply by keeping the door closed, but otherwise the staircase becomes a big chimney that blows cold air up through the middle of the house.
Our house still has some insulation problems, but assume for this question that we are doing everything possible in terms of weather-striping, insulating windows and so on.
Because the heat is hot water, we do have some issues with water temp being variable during cold-weather months, although this is not a problem in the warmer months.
We live in Maine, so cold weather is really cold (it was below zero this morning) and hot weather is hot, but we're not interested in any kind of home cooling system, just heat.
Where we would like to be: Natural gas instead of oil. (I would like to install solar but our house is not suitable for it.) Being able to use "zones" in order to make it warm for periods of time in some areas (like the 3rd floor) while keeping the bedrooms cooler. Less variation in water temp during the winter.
To be blunt, I would really like to be able to use more than three rooms of my house during the coldest part of the winter. I don't need the bedrooms to be warm, but last night (even though it was 65 degrees in the "warm rooms" downstairs I was wearing gloves while sewing and that's not ok. I want to not be cold all the time.
Things I don't quite understand yet: Is it possible to do zones with radiators? In general, how does zoned heating work (ie: is there a central command, or are there adjustable thermostats in each zone?). How do we evaluate what furnace is right for us? We have in mind roughly that this conversion will cost about $20K (big house, old pipes), but is that actually too low? What would be warning signs that would warn you away from a contractor?
Also, I'm in California so obviously typical heating needs are radically different from Maine, but I can tell you that the ultra-fancy, spare-no-expense places I work on use natural gas Munchkin boilers without exception.
posted by contraption at 10:02 AM on January 19, 2016
posted by contraption at 10:02 AM on January 19, 2016
You have a really specific type of home and climate and you would benefit by interviewing different contractors and let them teach you about what makes sense for your situation. You ARE noobs and that's okay. A good contractor will take the time to educate you about your potential purchase and will walk you through a number of options.
Where I tell EVERYONE to start is with Federal Tax Credits for Energy efficiency. Then go to the state and see what they're offering. Then check out your natural gas company's site. They too may offer rebates, AND they may offer an energy audit. Check out the site, or call someone and see if they do. This person can make some excellent recommendations. Are you currently on Natural Gas, or...something else? I know you said you're using fuel oil, but do you have gas running to your home for the stove, or would you need to factor that into the cost?
If might be that a more modern system with ducts and a separate hot water heater may be more efficient and economical for you. I'd be open-minded. Typically that would mean the ducts would be in the attic, and the vents would be in the ceiling on the top floor, and the ducts would be in the basement and on the floor on the bottom floor. It's actually not a huge deal to run ducts if you have access in both areas.
So check out your options for rebates, then call the gas company to see what they offer and then get some recommendations for an HVAC service and check out what they recommend.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:04 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Where I tell EVERYONE to start is with Federal Tax Credits for Energy efficiency. Then go to the state and see what they're offering. Then check out your natural gas company's site. They too may offer rebates, AND they may offer an energy audit. Check out the site, or call someone and see if they do. This person can make some excellent recommendations. Are you currently on Natural Gas, or...something else? I know you said you're using fuel oil, but do you have gas running to your home for the stove, or would you need to factor that into the cost?
If might be that a more modern system with ducts and a separate hot water heater may be more efficient and economical for you. I'd be open-minded. Typically that would mean the ducts would be in the attic, and the vents would be in the ceiling on the top floor, and the ducts would be in the basement and on the floor on the bottom floor. It's actually not a huge deal to run ducts if you have access in both areas.
So check out your options for rebates, then call the gas company to see what they offer and then get some recommendations for an HVAC service and check out what they recommend.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 10:04 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Cannot provide useful information on a lot of this but having lived with a hot water system for 27 years until last month can offer a couple caveats. Are you planning to retain your existing radiators and pipes? Assuming not given zones but if you are be aware that if your water is hard (ours was well water) - opening the system to move things can move calcification causing problems with clogged pipes which might force you to replace more radiators and pipes than you had necessarily planned to do.
Our system was natural gas - converted from oil long before we bought the house and updating everything in the furnace but the boiler itself helped but it was still a chilly house. Obviously if you're planning to rip out all the bits and pieces this is irrelevant. I suspect if you are planning to replace radiators and pipes $20K may be low but we never went that far.
Do you bleed your radiators every fall?
posted by leslies at 10:06 AM on January 19, 2016
Our system was natural gas - converted from oil long before we bought the house and updating everything in the furnace but the boiler itself helped but it was still a chilly house. Obviously if you're planning to rip out all the bits and pieces this is irrelevant. I suspect if you are planning to replace radiators and pipes $20K may be low but we never went that far.
Do you bleed your radiators every fall?
posted by leslies at 10:06 AM on January 19, 2016
Yes, you can absolutely retrofit what you have into a zoned system.
To keep costs low (and keep your house looking original) you want to keep your original radiators as much as possible. Do you have too few upstairs? A good contractor will know. If you need some new ones, then look to salvage to try to find matching ones.
You will probably be replacing your oil burner for a new boiler and separate hot water heater.
The contractor may need to re-route some of the pipes to the radiators to accomplish the zoning. You will have one thermostat for each zone.
My guess is that you can get this done for closer to $10k unless your existing heating plant contains asbestos that needs remediation or if you need lots of new radiators added in. If you do have asbestos your $20k estimate is probably too low.
You want a contractor that's used to old houses. You want to keep a substantial amount of your system and you don't want to start fresh, and a new house guy will want to start fresh. If they send out a guy that's usually retired but they put him on your job, that's the right guy. You may also want to ask the historic preservation people in your area for boiler recommendations. Keep in mind HVAC guys sometimes do not do boilers. You may be looking for a plumber.
posted by littlewater at 10:56 AM on January 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
To keep costs low (and keep your house looking original) you want to keep your original radiators as much as possible. Do you have too few upstairs? A good contractor will know. If you need some new ones, then look to salvage to try to find matching ones.
You will probably be replacing your oil burner for a new boiler and separate hot water heater.
The contractor may need to re-route some of the pipes to the radiators to accomplish the zoning. You will have one thermostat for each zone.
My guess is that you can get this done for closer to $10k unless your existing heating plant contains asbestos that needs remediation or if you need lots of new radiators added in. If you do have asbestos your $20k estimate is probably too low.
You want a contractor that's used to old houses. You want to keep a substantial amount of your system and you don't want to start fresh, and a new house guy will want to start fresh. If they send out a guy that's usually retired but they put him on your job, that's the right guy. You may also want to ask the historic preservation people in your area for boiler recommendations. Keep in mind HVAC guys sometimes do not do boilers. You may be looking for a plumber.
posted by littlewater at 10:56 AM on January 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, if you have hot water radiators, not steam, you can have zones.
Yes, you should be able to get a system with many zones, each with their own thermostat. That is totally normal these days. Each zone needs its own pump, control electronics and plumbing to and from the radiators.
Basically, the zone's thermostat calls for heat for that zone, the boiler heats up and the zone's pump turns on. Hot water flows up to the zone, through the radiator and back down to the boiler.
You could call a plumber or heating contractor and say, "Hi, I have a single thermostat oil boiler and I'd like it converted to gas and more zones split out. When can we meet for you to work up an estimate?" Before the come you should plan on what areas you want in what zones. Such as "We'd like bedrooms a b and c on one zone, the kitchen, dining room, downstairs bathroom and play room on another, and the 3rd floor an another." In some cases the contractor may say it would be easer if we put bedroom c on the same zone as the third floor. You can agree or you can pay more to have it the way you want.
Your existing system might have very few pipes that leave your basement so it might take a bit of work and expense to add the plumbing to and from each zone. For each zone you need a pipe going up to the room and its radiators and a pipe coming back.
A correctly sized boiler should be able to produce hot water fast enough for you.
posted by bdc34 at 11:03 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, you should be able to get a system with many zones, each with their own thermostat. That is totally normal these days. Each zone needs its own pump, control electronics and plumbing to and from the radiators.
Basically, the zone's thermostat calls for heat for that zone, the boiler heats up and the zone's pump turns on. Hot water flows up to the zone, through the radiator and back down to the boiler.
You could call a plumber or heating contractor and say, "Hi, I have a single thermostat oil boiler and I'd like it converted to gas and more zones split out. When can we meet for you to work up an estimate?" Before the come you should plan on what areas you want in what zones. Such as "We'd like bedrooms a b and c on one zone, the kitchen, dining room, downstairs bathroom and play room on another, and the 3rd floor an another." In some cases the contractor may say it would be easer if we put bedroom c on the same zone as the third floor. You can agree or you can pay more to have it the way you want.
Your existing system might have very few pipes that leave your basement so it might take a bit of work and expense to add the plumbing to and from each zone. For each zone you need a pipe going up to the room and its radiators and a pipe coming back.
A correctly sized boiler should be able to produce hot water fast enough for you.
posted by bdc34 at 11:03 AM on January 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Depending on exactly how pipes are routed, switching to a zoned setup may or may not require significant re-piping. (Obviously it's a lot cheaper if it doesn't.) It might be possible to improve the heat in areas away from the thermostat even without having separate zones however. First, if your current system does not include a pump and relies on heat differentials+gravity to get the warm water upstairs, any modern furnace will solve that problem. Second, there are knobs that adjust water flow through each radiator. Since they're connected to each other it's not as simple as opening one up all the way to get the most heat; you'll need to experiment with opening up the ones upstairs and tamping down the ones downstairs to see what works. Third, it sounds like your current system may be undersized for your needs. A new furnace should solve that. Fourth, insulating pipes leading between floors may make a noticeable difference.
posted by metasarah at 11:05 AM on January 19, 2016
posted by metasarah at 11:05 AM on January 19, 2016
I live in a small 1-zone house with hydronic heat.
Yes, you will need some new plumbing for 3 zones.
To think about: Do you want to replace radiators with baseboard heat (they take up less space, but obviously, cost).
Do you want any in-floor heating loops (nice for bathrooms). Now's the time to do it.
I think you can get new heating boilers that include a heat exchanger for household hot water that replace a hot water heater.
About metasarah's comment: I think you probably have 1 continuous loop. Unless there are bypasses around each radiator (unlikely) shutting down a valve would only decrease flow to the whole system.
posted by H21 at 11:12 AM on January 19, 2016
Yes, you will need some new plumbing for 3 zones.
To think about: Do you want to replace radiators with baseboard heat (they take up less space, but obviously, cost).
Do you want any in-floor heating loops (nice for bathrooms). Now's the time to do it.
I think you can get new heating boilers that include a heat exchanger for household hot water that replace a hot water heater.
About metasarah's comment: I think you probably have 1 continuous loop. Unless there are bypasses around each radiator (unlikely) shutting down a valve would only decrease flow to the whole system.
posted by H21 at 11:12 AM on January 19, 2016
I run energy efficiency programs for a gas utility (but not your gas utility), and I would echo a lot of what Ruthless Bunny said. Efficiency Maine's programs look pretty generous compared to a lot of the country; I found at least $2,500 in rebates that you might qualify for in the course of about a minute clicking around their site and Unitil's. There might well be more. There are also financing options for which you may qualify. I'd start by going to the Unitil and Efficiency Maine websites and signing up for an energy audit.
Your comment that cold air is getting sucked up the staircase is worrying - cold air should never be going up unless the air above it is getting out somewhere. You want to seal your house from the top down - I know you mentioned that you're doing weather stripping, but it sounds like you really need to air-seal your attic. (Air sealing is not the same as insulating - if you insulate without air sealing you're not going to get the result you want).
For that reason I'd double-underscore the suggestion to get an auditor on-site. Your utility can send one, which is nice because the auditor will explain things to you, help you prioritize, and isn't trying to sell you anything (except efficiency). Also, they'll be able to help make sure that when you air-seal and insulate, you won't be over-tightening the house and creating safety issues.
But everything you're describing should be possible, for the amount you're talking about or less (barring asbestos issues), and your auditor and contractors (typically separate ones for the heating system and the air-sealing/insulation) should be able to hook you up with all the utility rebates to which you'd ll be entitled.
We're seeing increased interest here in the combined boiler/hot water heater units; depending on the specifics of your circumstances that might make sense and still qualify for rebates.
(Note that your utility probably won't be able to recommend a specific contractor, but depending on the specifics of their program, they might be able to provide a list of contractors authorized under their rebate programs.) Feel free to MeMail if you have questions about utility efficiency programs; I have general knowledge about residential HVAC stuff and would be happy to share but I think a lot of your specific questions are best answered by getting an energy audit.
posted by nickmark at 1:01 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Your comment that cold air is getting sucked up the staircase is worrying - cold air should never be going up unless the air above it is getting out somewhere. You want to seal your house from the top down - I know you mentioned that you're doing weather stripping, but it sounds like you really need to air-seal your attic. (Air sealing is not the same as insulating - if you insulate without air sealing you're not going to get the result you want).
For that reason I'd double-underscore the suggestion to get an auditor on-site. Your utility can send one, which is nice because the auditor will explain things to you, help you prioritize, and isn't trying to sell you anything (except efficiency). Also, they'll be able to help make sure that when you air-seal and insulate, you won't be over-tightening the house and creating safety issues.
But everything you're describing should be possible, for the amount you're talking about or less (barring asbestos issues), and your auditor and contractors (typically separate ones for the heating system and the air-sealing/insulation) should be able to hook you up with all the utility rebates to which you'd ll be entitled.
We're seeing increased interest here in the combined boiler/hot water heater units; depending on the specifics of your circumstances that might make sense and still qualify for rebates.
(Note that your utility probably won't be able to recommend a specific contractor, but depending on the specifics of their program, they might be able to provide a list of contractors authorized under their rebate programs.) Feel free to MeMail if you have questions about utility efficiency programs; I have general knowledge about residential HVAC stuff and would be happy to share but I think a lot of your specific questions are best answered by getting an energy audit.
posted by nickmark at 1:01 PM on January 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: For that reason I'd double-underscore the suggestion to get an auditor on-site.
Heh. We actually had an auditor come last spring - one that was even rated by EM as a "trusted" contractor. Our experience was horrible - they did seal up some stuff, mainly (allegedly) in the basement around the chimney (however we can't really see any evidence of work down there except a little bit of expanding spray foam - nothing was even moved in the "work area") but never gave us a written report and seemed generally to have no idea what they were doing, at least in a house of this size and age. When they did the door fan thing, they were unable to get the house to pressurize with the attic door open, so currently our solution (at their suggestion) is to keep the door to the 3rd floor closed (it has been weather stripped also, so it's sealed) when the room is not in use. There are two radiators up there, which keeps the edge off, but it is COLD up there with the door closed all the time, making an important third of our living space functionally unusable (or at least really unpleasant) a lot of the time. Whatever work they did resulted in no measurable energy savings in our home.
Anyhow, that visit was 100% paid for by EM, but used up our available energy audit credits, and without the written report we can't really go much further as they never gave us any larger actionable recommendations. We are currently unwilling to shell out another $800 for another audit (couldn't be done until spring anyhow with current temps) given that our first one was such a mess.
That being said, I'm a big fan of Efficiency Maine, we just happened to get a lousy contractor. We are not currently Unitil customers, so they won't do an audit for us.
posted by anastasiav at 1:48 PM on January 19, 2016
Heh. We actually had an auditor come last spring - one that was even rated by EM as a "trusted" contractor. Our experience was horrible - they did seal up some stuff, mainly (allegedly) in the basement around the chimney (however we can't really see any evidence of work down there except a little bit of expanding spray foam - nothing was even moved in the "work area") but never gave us a written report and seemed generally to have no idea what they were doing, at least in a house of this size and age. When they did the door fan thing, they were unable to get the house to pressurize with the attic door open, so currently our solution (at their suggestion) is to keep the door to the 3rd floor closed (it has been weather stripped also, so it's sealed) when the room is not in use. There are two radiators up there, which keeps the edge off, but it is COLD up there with the door closed all the time, making an important third of our living space functionally unusable (or at least really unpleasant) a lot of the time. Whatever work they did resulted in no measurable energy savings in our home.
Anyhow, that visit was 100% paid for by EM, but used up our available energy audit credits, and without the written report we can't really go much further as they never gave us any larger actionable recommendations. We are currently unwilling to shell out another $800 for another audit (couldn't be done until spring anyhow with current temps) given that our first one was such a mess.
That being said, I'm a big fan of Efficiency Maine, we just happened to get a lousy contractor. We are not currently Unitil customers, so they won't do an audit for us.
posted by anastasiav at 1:48 PM on January 19, 2016
Response by poster: Also, thank you to everyone for the comments so far!
posted by anastasiav at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2016
posted by anastasiav at 1:52 PM on January 19, 2016
Given your update, I would push back on EM and ask them to get the written report for which you contracted. But your local gas company might have their own auditors. Florida Power and Light sent a guy to my condo and he told me all kinds of cool stuff!
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:04 PM on January 19, 2016
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 2:04 PM on January 19, 2016
never gave us a written report
That's ... shocking. Our regulators wouldn't have time to be all over us if one of our auditors left a customer's home without providing a written report, because we would have kicked that auditor to the curb the second we heard about it. I wouldn't have expected their visit to result in any energy savings, but they should have given you a ton of information to follow up on.
I mentioned Unitil because they were who showed up when I Googled for gas utilities and the location in your profile - do you currently have gas at all?
posted by nickmark at 2:13 PM on January 19, 2016
That's ... shocking. Our regulators wouldn't have time to be all over us if one of our auditors left a customer's home without providing a written report, because we would have kicked that auditor to the curb the second we heard about it. I wouldn't have expected their visit to result in any energy savings, but they should have given you a ton of information to follow up on.
I mentioned Unitil because they were who showed up when I Googled for gas utilities and the location in your profile - do you currently have gas at all?
posted by nickmark at 2:13 PM on January 19, 2016
Also, even if EM can't help you get a copy of the report (though they should), they need to hear about it when a customer is describing an experience with their programs as "horrible." From my own (painful) experience, it's often only because of customer complaints that program administrators can identify lousy auditors or contractors and kicked them out (and also identify the program design flaws that allowed the bad apples into the program in the first place).
posted by nickmark at 2:19 PM on January 19, 2016
posted by nickmark at 2:19 PM on January 19, 2016
Response by poster: To answer a few questions:
- EM is well aware of the issues we had with the contractor and that contractor is no longer listed on the EM website. We did get a printout from them of the blower readings before and after they did whatever work they did (2 hours worth of "weather tightening" is part of the EM energy audit deal), but no other written recommendations or report have ever been forthcoming. FWIW, while they were here they were focused on the basement; they never looked into the crawlspace above the third floor.
- Unitil is the only gas provider in the city; we do not have gas lines to the house currently but were recently notified that they are opening our street for other reasons in the summer of 2018, and if we choose to have gas hooked up to the house at that time they will do so free of charge.
posted by anastasiav at 4:26 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
- EM is well aware of the issues we had with the contractor and that contractor is no longer listed on the EM website. We did get a printout from them of the blower readings before and after they did whatever work they did (2 hours worth of "weather tightening" is part of the EM energy audit deal), but no other written recommendations or report have ever been forthcoming. FWIW, while they were here they were focused on the basement; they never looked into the crawlspace above the third floor.
- Unitil is the only gas provider in the city; we do not have gas lines to the house currently but were recently notified that they are opening our street for other reasons in the summer of 2018, and if we choose to have gas hooked up to the house at that time they will do so free of charge.
posted by anastasiav at 4:26 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had an Efficiency Maine audit that was useful, so maybe get some references and try again. *If* I can locate the documents, I'll send you the name.
With zoned heat, they install what are basically switches and piping so that when Zone 1's thermostat is set at 65, and it goes below that, the Zone 1 pipes get more heat. My little house has 2 zones and 3 would be better. It requires plumbing, and the switch things might be pricey.
I now have baseboard hot water heat and really miss the radiators at my old house.
1. you can dry clothes on the radiators
2. you can put furniture and bookcases against the walls.
Radiators, by the way, can be painted any color, and you can use regular paint.
Right now, oil is quite affordable. Recently, natural gas was a better deal. No idea if it's a crapshoot; who knows how long oil will be so cheap. My old house had gas heat and gas hot water heater. Gas furnaces do not need to be cleaned annually; they seldom need any maintenance at all, they are quiet, and gas is a bit more efficient. Running the hot water off the furnace is pretty inefficient; consider having a separate hot water heater. I would def. get the gas hooked up, it's nice to have options, like a gas stove.
Several years ago, I thought I needed a new furnace to replace my 20+ year old oil furnace. I got 3 estimates. Company 1 said - Your furnace needs repair, it's old, if we do this repair, it probably won't work, but we still have to charge you. Cost for new system is $$. You really need a new furnace. Company 2 said You need a new furnace? Cost is @$$, we're not going to visit. Company 3 is the most expensive plumbing/heating shop in town. They said Why do you want a new furnace? This is fixable. If every single thing goes wrong, it will cost a bunch, but I think we can fix it for 500. Not a binding estimate Really, I think your furnace has at least 5 more years left in it. They fixed it for 350 - none of the things that could go wrong, did. Get estimates, even if you think a company is expensive. They might just be better.
posted by theora55 at 5:56 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
With zoned heat, they install what are basically switches and piping so that when Zone 1's thermostat is set at 65, and it goes below that, the Zone 1 pipes get more heat. My little house has 2 zones and 3 would be better. It requires plumbing, and the switch things might be pricey.
I now have baseboard hot water heat and really miss the radiators at my old house.
1. you can dry clothes on the radiators
2. you can put furniture and bookcases against the walls.
Radiators, by the way, can be painted any color, and you can use regular paint.
Right now, oil is quite affordable. Recently, natural gas was a better deal. No idea if it's a crapshoot; who knows how long oil will be so cheap. My old house had gas heat and gas hot water heater. Gas furnaces do not need to be cleaned annually; they seldom need any maintenance at all, they are quiet, and gas is a bit more efficient. Running the hot water off the furnace is pretty inefficient; consider having a separate hot water heater. I would def. get the gas hooked up, it's nice to have options, like a gas stove.
Several years ago, I thought I needed a new furnace to replace my 20+ year old oil furnace. I got 3 estimates. Company 1 said - Your furnace needs repair, it's old, if we do this repair, it probably won't work, but we still have to charge you. Cost for new system is $$. You really need a new furnace. Company 2 said You need a new furnace? Cost is @$$, we're not going to visit. Company 3 is the most expensive plumbing/heating shop in town. They said Why do you want a new furnace? This is fixable. If every single thing goes wrong, it will cost a bunch, but I think we can fix it for 500. Not a binding estimate Really, I think your furnace has at least 5 more years left in it. They fixed it for 350 - none of the things that could go wrong, did. Get estimates, even if you think a company is expensive. They might just be better.
posted by theora55 at 5:56 PM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
hi. I live in the frigid north east.
from what you have said I'd be willing to bet that the reason you are cold is because your house is not adequately insulated and air sealed, particularly in the roof. it's possible you could spend the money on the new furnace and still be cold...
also, in my experience, the energy audit people tend to be either ignorant or bozos. before you budget out the new furnace I would really try to get a professional insulation contractor out to find out what your house needs. if they couldn't do a blower test, then it sounds like you are losing all of that expensive hot air to the great outdoors...
posted by ennui.bz at 8:02 PM on January 19, 2016
from what you have said I'd be willing to bet that the reason you are cold is because your house is not adequately insulated and air sealed, particularly in the roof. it's possible you could spend the money on the new furnace and still be cold...
also, in my experience, the energy audit people tend to be either ignorant or bozos. before you budget out the new furnace I would really try to get a professional insulation contractor out to find out what your house needs. if they couldn't do a blower test, then it sounds like you are losing all of that expensive hot air to the great outdoors...
posted by ennui.bz at 8:02 PM on January 19, 2016
the staircase becomes a big chimney that blows cold air up through the middle of the house
It's possible that poor (or zero) insulation in the walls is causing downdrafts with an updraft of warm(er) air.
Do you get heat to all your radiator upstairs?. In my baseboard system, if one baseboard is airbound, it will be cold but others will be hot. Also, any air in the system tends to collect in the upper floors. I added automatic bleeder valves to my problem baseboards. Now no gurgling and all baseboards are hot. I'm not sure if this model would work on your radiators, but Amazon has different styles of valve.
It sounds like you should delay replacing your furnace until you get gas lines. Here's something to try until then. If your furnace is not maxed out (not running all the time), if you reduce the heat flow to the ground floor it should increase the heat flow to the upper floors. If you enclose the radiators on the ground floor there would be less heat to the thermostat and the furnace would need to run longer to reach the set temperature, heating the upstairs more. You could try this just in the room with the thermostat. A plywood box with an open top would probably work. Adjust heat flow by partially blocking the opening with another piece of plywood. Even a cardboard box might be enough for proof of concept. Thought--open the window to that room to cool the thermostat--it should heat the rest of the house.
This website is very helpful in understanding and maintaining a hydronic system.
posted by H21 at 7:14 AM on January 20, 2016
It's possible that poor (or zero) insulation in the walls is causing downdrafts with an updraft of warm(er) air.
Do you get heat to all your radiator upstairs?. In my baseboard system, if one baseboard is airbound, it will be cold but others will be hot. Also, any air in the system tends to collect in the upper floors. I added automatic bleeder valves to my problem baseboards. Now no gurgling and all baseboards are hot. I'm not sure if this model would work on your radiators, but Amazon has different styles of valve.
It sounds like you should delay replacing your furnace until you get gas lines. Here's something to try until then. If your furnace is not maxed out (not running all the time), if you reduce the heat flow to the ground floor it should increase the heat flow to the upper floors. If you enclose the radiators on the ground floor there would be less heat to the thermostat and the furnace would need to run longer to reach the set temperature, heating the upstairs more. You could try this just in the room with the thermostat. A plywood box with an open top would probably work. Adjust heat flow by partially blocking the opening with another piece of plywood. Even a cardboard box might be enough for proof of concept. Thought--open the window to that room to cool the thermostat--it should heat the rest of the house.
This website is very helpful in understanding and maintaining a hydronic system.
posted by H21 at 7:14 AM on January 20, 2016
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As for central control, all the systems I work on have an automation system (that's my job) like Crestron or Control4, so that becomes the unifying UI for all those hidden thermostats. Because of this I'm not well-versed in the standalone HVAC-only control options but I can say that Honeywell RedLink seems popular, or I suppose you could buy one Nest thermostat per zone and control those through Nest's own app.
posted by contraption at 9:56 AM on January 19, 2016 [1 favorite]