My fiancee is uncomfortable with my friendship with another woman!`
January 13, 2016 6:15 AM Subscribe
My wife-to-be made a friend. That friend and I also got along well and became friends. My fiancee was hurt by this, the friendship ended and now I'm unsure how to proceed.
Much, much more below
A couple of details:
We've been together for 4 years, living together for 2, and have been engaged since last March with the wedding this summer. We sync up on many things and have handled the ups and downs of our relationship really well. We didn't have "that fight" until this year. We're both in our early 30's. I was married once before for 5 years, but we married for legal reasons and the divorce was pretty clean. We make similar salaries and work similar hours. We are seeking couples counseling for the issues outlined below.
That said, we're not exactly alike. We have really divergent interests. I think this is good and it's given us both great exposure to new things. We've also developed a lot of common interests. But there are still things that I'm really passionate about that she doesn't share my enthusiasm for- I don't think this is a problem, but it figures in below.
Point being: We've been really happy and on the up-and-up for a few years. As above, we recently hit a huge, weird roadblock that's threatened to derail our relationship.
______________________
Here's what happened: Last year, my fiancee (Henceforth, F) went to brunch with her friends and met a new lady-pal. They hit it off super well and this new lady-pal (Henceforth, L) started hanging around a bunch. Our dogs got along well, we had dinner parties etc. etc., all was well.
Then L and I started occasionally hanging out on our own. Not often, but we'd grab lunch or go to the bookstore or something. L and I had very similar interests in a bunch of things and it was nice to have someone to nerd out with. 90% the time, it was all 3 of us, but the other 10% it'd be just L and I.
(Let me digress really quickly: I cannot be more clear about how platonic this is. I love F dearly and would never do anything to endanger that, I just liked having a friend. I'm not bad at making friends per-se, but I don't have many "hey let's hangout" friends. I find it hard to relate to people or to build that bridge, but over time I've established stable of 5 or 6 people I really rely on and L was quickly joining those ranks. )
Anyway, F started to get a little weird about it. Some of it I could understand- She didn't like L and I cooking together because it had certain connotations. Sure, bummer, okay fine. Then she didn't like us going to the bookstore together. Then she really didn't like that we'd text during the day about records or books or whatever.
And this is where the trouble starts and where everyone has a different opinion about who's to blame for what. Basically, F has a bit of a meltdown and we have a big fight over whether or not my contact with L is appropriate.
My opinion is that we're all adults and deserving of trust. We'll have all kinds of relationships in our lives and I'm not really in the business of saying, "You may not hang out with Kyle because of feelings". Obviously, we need to discuss the context of those relationships, but in the absence of a transgression, I don't think its fair to ask F to not see that person. Will some relationships she has make me more uncomfortable than others? Yes, absolutely. But, to me, that's the world. L feel pretty similarly.
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns. I don't think this is untrue, but I also don't know how to address them when the solution feels like: Don't have this friendship outside of my purview.
One thing I definitely did not want to do was to have some kind of secret friendship with L. I don't really keep secrets, I think they're bad and they stress me out. So L and I tried a thing where we had group texts with F instead of just private texts. This didn't seem to help. It lead to a second incident where it was decided that we all just needed a break from each other.
That helped dramatically, obviously, but it also left everyone a little sad. We have other friends, but I'd lost my bookstore buddy and F had lost a confidant. I was also angry at F for having blown it up in the first place. A few weeks went by and we all reconciled, things went back to normal, L and I opted not to spend time together. However, in the ultimate incident, F decided to read my text messages (I should be clear that this is just an incredibly out-of-character incident for her and I have no reason to believe she'd ever done it before), read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight. I felt like my privacy had been violated, F was upset that L and I had discussed her.
F decides to cut all contact with L. L is hurt by this, feeling she didn't do anything wrong. I'm upset that I can't seem to resolve this and that the only solution seems to be to cut this person, whose friendship I really enjoy, out of my life because F is acting, from my perspective, irrationally. We decide to seek counseling because this is an issue we can't seem to solve and seems to point to some really deep trust issues that neither of us had a clue existed.
So, the question is: What do I do? I think there's a real and valid school of thought that's like Dude, that's your future wife. If she's crying out and saying that she's uncomfortable, you gotta cut L loose.
But I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship and part of that trust is not policing your emotional/social landscape.
I just feel very stuck. I'm not sure if I'm just being a stubborn monster or if F is being unfair. Or both! I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression. Our current strategy has been to end the friendship and not discuss L, but that feels kind of. Soviet?
Anyway, I was hoping that some other MeFi-ites could offer perspective or had been in similar circumstances and could offer advice.
A couple of details:
We've been together for 4 years, living together for 2, and have been engaged since last March with the wedding this summer. We sync up on many things and have handled the ups and downs of our relationship really well. We didn't have "that fight" until this year. We're both in our early 30's. I was married once before for 5 years, but we married for legal reasons and the divorce was pretty clean. We make similar salaries and work similar hours. We are seeking couples counseling for the issues outlined below.
That said, we're not exactly alike. We have really divergent interests. I think this is good and it's given us both great exposure to new things. We've also developed a lot of common interests. But there are still things that I'm really passionate about that she doesn't share my enthusiasm for- I don't think this is a problem, but it figures in below.
Point being: We've been really happy and on the up-and-up for a few years. As above, we recently hit a huge, weird roadblock that's threatened to derail our relationship.
______________________
Here's what happened: Last year, my fiancee (Henceforth, F) went to brunch with her friends and met a new lady-pal. They hit it off super well and this new lady-pal (Henceforth, L) started hanging around a bunch. Our dogs got along well, we had dinner parties etc. etc., all was well.
Then L and I started occasionally hanging out on our own. Not often, but we'd grab lunch or go to the bookstore or something. L and I had very similar interests in a bunch of things and it was nice to have someone to nerd out with. 90% the time, it was all 3 of us, but the other 10% it'd be just L and I.
(Let me digress really quickly: I cannot be more clear about how platonic this is. I love F dearly and would never do anything to endanger that, I just liked having a friend. I'm not bad at making friends per-se, but I don't have many "hey let's hangout" friends. I find it hard to relate to people or to build that bridge, but over time I've established stable of 5 or 6 people I really rely on and L was quickly joining those ranks. )
Anyway, F started to get a little weird about it. Some of it I could understand- She didn't like L and I cooking together because it had certain connotations. Sure, bummer, okay fine. Then she didn't like us going to the bookstore together. Then she really didn't like that we'd text during the day about records or books or whatever.
And this is where the trouble starts and where everyone has a different opinion about who's to blame for what. Basically, F has a bit of a meltdown and we have a big fight over whether or not my contact with L is appropriate.
My opinion is that we're all adults and deserving of trust. We'll have all kinds of relationships in our lives and I'm not really in the business of saying, "You may not hang out with Kyle because of feelings". Obviously, we need to discuss the context of those relationships, but in the absence of a transgression, I don't think its fair to ask F to not see that person. Will some relationships she has make me more uncomfortable than others? Yes, absolutely. But, to me, that's the world. L feel pretty similarly.
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns. I don't think this is untrue, but I also don't know how to address them when the solution feels like: Don't have this friendship outside of my purview.
One thing I definitely did not want to do was to have some kind of secret friendship with L. I don't really keep secrets, I think they're bad and they stress me out. So L and I tried a thing where we had group texts with F instead of just private texts. This didn't seem to help. It lead to a second incident where it was decided that we all just needed a break from each other.
That helped dramatically, obviously, but it also left everyone a little sad. We have other friends, but I'd lost my bookstore buddy and F had lost a confidant. I was also angry at F for having blown it up in the first place. A few weeks went by and we all reconciled, things went back to normal, L and I opted not to spend time together. However, in the ultimate incident, F decided to read my text messages (I should be clear that this is just an incredibly out-of-character incident for her and I have no reason to believe she'd ever done it before), read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight. I felt like my privacy had been violated, F was upset that L and I had discussed her.
F decides to cut all contact with L. L is hurt by this, feeling she didn't do anything wrong. I'm upset that I can't seem to resolve this and that the only solution seems to be to cut this person, whose friendship I really enjoy, out of my life because F is acting, from my perspective, irrationally. We decide to seek counseling because this is an issue we can't seem to solve and seems to point to some really deep trust issues that neither of us had a clue existed.
So, the question is: What do I do? I think there's a real and valid school of thought that's like Dude, that's your future wife. If she's crying out and saying that she's uncomfortable, you gotta cut L loose.
But I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship and part of that trust is not policing your emotional/social landscape.
I just feel very stuck. I'm not sure if I'm just being a stubborn monster or if F is being unfair. Or both! I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression. Our current strategy has been to end the friendship and not discuss L, but that feels kind of. Soviet?
Anyway, I was hoping that some other MeFi-ites could offer perspective or had been in similar circumstances and could offer advice.
Just picking one thing that stuck out for me: texting with L about F was not cool.
posted by meijusa at 6:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [80 favorites]
posted by meijusa at 6:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [80 favorites]
well, you don't have to cut L loose. you can cut F loose.
posted by andrewcooke at 6:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by andrewcooke at 6:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Dude, that's your future wife. If she's crying out and saying that she's uncomfortable, you gotta cut L loose.You've already answered your own question, but I'll expand on it a bit. If you answer to the following is yes:
My upcoming marriage is more important than maintaining a friendship that makes my wife-to-be uncomfortableThen it really does boil down to
Dude, that's your future wife. If she's crying out and saying that she's uncomfortable, you gotta cut L loose.I think you probably crossed the line of what's acceptable and comfortable here (though different stroke for different folks, obviously):
some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F,And of course your fiancee crossed a line with her snooping.
Ultimately, I think the right thing to do is cut ties with L, unless your friendship with L is more important than your long-term relationship. I also think that some couple's therapy would be an excellent option, because it would allow you and F to discuss this in a safe and non-judgemental space.
Ultimately, your fiancee told you that she was uncomfortable and you kept on doing the thing that she said made her uncomfortable. That doesn't feel respectful.
posted by six sided sock at 6:28 AM on January 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
I don't think either of you is wrong here. If my husband began hanging out with and texting one of my girlfriends, I would feel super uncomfortable. And it wouldn't be fair or right, but that's how I would feel. And I would hope that my husband respected my feelings, and stopped with the alone stuff with my friend. But I would also understand if he felt that this showed a lack of trust on my part. In my opinion, it's a sticky situation where no one is right and no one is wrong. But I would feel exactly like your fiancée, even though I trust my husband. I would also (sorry, friend) NOT trust a newish friend. I don't think you need to end the friendship, but I do think that for the sake of your marriage you need to end the solo hangouts and communication, ESPECIALLY communication about your relationship.
posted by amro at 6:28 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by amro at 6:28 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
End it with the friend out of respect for your future wife, but don't get married to your fiancee until you both have a serious come-to-jesus talk about trust. Trust is a cornerstone of a marriage, and if it's not there now, a marriage license isn't going to make it materialize.
posted by theraflu at 6:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by theraflu at 6:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Emotional fidelity is separate from romantic and sexual fidelity. While your friendship with L may be "platonic," it has an intimacy that is inappropriate for your relationship with F.
posted by yesster at 6:34 AM on January 13, 2016 [82 favorites]
posted by yesster at 6:34 AM on January 13, 2016 [82 favorites]
I would not feel good about going into a marriage with someone for whom friendships with my gender-of-relationship-preference people were off limits.
Everyone is saying that hey, F is your future wife so you should respect her stated preference. Why is no one saying that you are F's future husband, so F should respect your stated preference? Why does "I think my husband will cheat on me if he gets close to a woman" get so much traction when "I think that believing that all other women are out to take someone's man is unrealistic and offensive" gets none?
As to what to do: it seems like things with L are pretty much shot, and that's a shame. I would sit down with F and talk about how this is going to work long-term. Are all women going to be off limits as friends forever? Or, hopefully, is there a way to handle this going in, so that if you meet a cool woman friend again, you can take some specific steps so that F feels at ease?
It might be that if you had a specific plan up front rather than dealing with a complex situation on the fly, F would feel more secure and this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. It also might be that if you were starting from scratch, as it were, with a new person, things might go more smoothly.
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on January 13, 2016 [80 favorites]
Everyone is saying that hey, F is your future wife so you should respect her stated preference. Why is no one saying that you are F's future husband, so F should respect your stated preference? Why does "I think my husband will cheat on me if he gets close to a woman" get so much traction when "I think that believing that all other women are out to take someone's man is unrealistic and offensive" gets none?
As to what to do: it seems like things with L are pretty much shot, and that's a shame. I would sit down with F and talk about how this is going to work long-term. Are all women going to be off limits as friends forever? Or, hopefully, is there a way to handle this going in, so that if you meet a cool woman friend again, you can take some specific steps so that F feels at ease?
It might be that if you had a specific plan up front rather than dealing with a complex situation on the fly, F would feel more secure and this whole thing wouldn't be an issue. It also might be that if you were starting from scratch, as it were, with a new person, things might go more smoothly.
posted by Frowner at 6:38 AM on January 13, 2016 [80 favorites]
You need to see that:
F decided to read my text messages, read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight.
is at odds with:
I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship.
Look, neither my husband nor I would ever tell the other who they can or cannot be friends with, regardless of gender. But part of the reason that works is that we trust each other to not talk shit about the relationship or our spouses with 3rd parties.
You have not been good about policing your own boundaries here, and the above is only one example of that from your post. No, by default F does not get to tell you who you can be friends with, but you have to be trustworthy with that. And you have not been.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:44 AM on January 13, 2016 [73 favorites]
F decided to read my text messages, read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight.
is at odds with:
I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship.
Look, neither my husband nor I would ever tell the other who they can or cannot be friends with, regardless of gender. But part of the reason that works is that we trust each other to not talk shit about the relationship or our spouses with 3rd parties.
You have not been good about policing your own boundaries here, and the above is only one example of that from your post. No, by default F does not get to tell you who you can be friends with, but you have to be trustworthy with that. And you have not been.
posted by DarlingBri at 6:44 AM on January 13, 2016 [73 favorites]
Are there other women in your 5-6 person group? Or is/was L the only woman?
In other words, if it's a women-friends problem, that seems like something that will become a relationship problem between you and F. Women aren't going away. But on the other hand, if it's just an L problem... I hate to say it, but there will be other great people to meet in the future. I'm guessing that you might feel some anxiety about that, and that's ok -- but maybe you can try to work on making more (other) friends, rather than hanging on to this one. Life is long. There will be other people to geek out about books and records with.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:48 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
In other words, if it's a women-friends problem, that seems like something that will become a relationship problem between you and F. Women aren't going away. But on the other hand, if it's just an L problem... I hate to say it, but there will be other great people to meet in the future. I'm guessing that you might feel some anxiety about that, and that's ok -- but maybe you can try to work on making more (other) friends, rather than hanging on to this one. Life is long. There will be other people to geek out about books and records with.
posted by chesty_a_arthur at 6:48 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've basically been you, OP. Irrationally jealous partner who didn't want me having meaningful friendships with the opposite sex. We eventually broke up, and I realized how much I'd been contorting myself to please him and assuage his insane jealousy, a jealousy which was all about him and zero about anything inappropriate ever happening.
I agree with frowner that your needs have to matter here too. Are you OK with having your friendship life utterly owned and managed by your wife? If not, this has to be ironed out now, in a way that respects your feelings and needs, too, not just hers. She needs to work on trusting you and on figuring out where all this groundless jealousy is coming from.
I'd never accept a relationship again where my partner didn't trust me. I'll never again accept being harangued and emotionally aggressed against because of the insecurities of my partner.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 6:49 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
I agree with frowner that your needs have to matter here too. Are you OK with having your friendship life utterly owned and managed by your wife? If not, this has to be ironed out now, in a way that respects your feelings and needs, too, not just hers. She needs to work on trusting you and on figuring out where all this groundless jealousy is coming from.
I'd never accept a relationship again where my partner didn't trust me. I'll never again accept being harangued and emotionally aggressed against because of the insecurities of my partner.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 6:49 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Another thought: for me, it's important to be able to talk about my relationship with close friends. There are things that are too private to share - really personal stuff, sexual stuff, stuff that I know my partner wouldn't want me to share or has specifically asked me not to share - but in general, I would not feel good about a relationship where "hey, friend, I am struggling with this situation in my relationship, can we talk about it" were off limits.
Some people feel like you should never talk about your partner to anyone other than a therapist. If this is where your fiancee is coming from, be sure you can live with that.
However, it sounds like you need another source of emotional support. I totally get why it probably seemed reasonable to talk about the situation between you, L and F with L - she's your friend! she's involved! - but that can only end in tears. That's the kind of situation where you need another close friend to talk things through.
I have sort of been in this situation, in that I have a couple of friends my partner really doesn't like for political reasons (so they know that my partner doesn't like them). I emphasize de-escalation if/when this ever comes up - basically, I say something like "I value your friendship but I also respect [partner's] feelings about this complex situation" and then we close that topic.
posted by Frowner at 6:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
Some people feel like you should never talk about your partner to anyone other than a therapist. If this is where your fiancee is coming from, be sure you can live with that.
However, it sounds like you need another source of emotional support. I totally get why it probably seemed reasonable to talk about the situation between you, L and F with L - she's your friend! she's involved! - but that can only end in tears. That's the kind of situation where you need another close friend to talk things through.
I have sort of been in this situation, in that I have a couple of friends my partner really doesn't like for political reasons (so they know that my partner doesn't like them). I emphasize de-escalation if/when this ever comes up - basically, I say something like "I value your friendship but I also respect [partner's] feelings about this complex situation" and then we close that topic.
posted by Frowner at 6:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
I think there is probably more going on here than your girlfriend simply being jealous of you having opposite sex friends. If I am reading this statement correctly, "90% the time, it was all 3 of us, but the other 10% it'd be just L and I," F and L never hang out just the two of them, even though that is the original friendship in this triad. It's either the three of you or just you and L. That would piss me off were I your girlfriend. She originally made this friend, L, and then you co-opted her completely as your own: there is no remaining F and L friendship to balance out your friendship with L. Maybe that makes sense given your shared interests with L and maybe you have more in common with L than F does, but I don't think it takes a huge stretch of the imagination to understand why F feels hurt and left out by this arrangement.
posted by scantee at 6:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [74 favorites]
posted by scantee at 6:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [74 favorites]
You feel that this indicative that she doesn't trust you, but it may be that she doesn't fully trust your friend. She doesn't have any leverage to "control" (for lack of a batter word) her friend's behaviour. I mean, it wasn't nice that you were talking about your relationship with your friend - but the friend should have shut down that conversation rather than participating.
I feel any relationship gets one "veto" where each partner can identify one external person that may be a threat. But a pattern of behaviour where multiple friends/family are "forbidden", isolating one member of the relationship in an unhealthy way.
posted by saucysault at 6:53 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I feel any relationship gets one "veto" where each partner can identify one external person that may be a threat. But a pattern of behaviour where multiple friends/family are "forbidden", isolating one member of the relationship in an unhealthy way.
posted by saucysault at 6:53 AM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
You're in the wrong here. Sorry. You're trying to paint your fiancee like she's irrational, but she's not. You co-opted her new friend; and then you crossed a very clear relationship-respect line - discussing your fiancee with the friend.
You may have nothing but innocent intent but you're behaving disrespectfully and your fiancee is right to call you on it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:59 AM on January 13, 2016 [68 favorites]
You may have nothing but innocent intent but you're behaving disrespectfully and your fiancee is right to call you on it.
posted by fingersandtoes at 6:59 AM on January 13, 2016 [68 favorites]
If you had 2 friends you introduced to each other, and you spent a lot of time with both of them and felt emotionally connected with both of them, then you found out they were hanging out alone together and talking about you behind your back, you'd probably feel bad, too.
I get this sense you're lonely, you said you have a really hard time making friends on your own, and so you're being super reliant on this friend of your wife's. While technically nothing has happened, we don't know what the female friend is thinking. I'm friends with all of my friends' husbands, but I would never develop a relationship with them independent of my relationship with my female friends. I wouldn't even go there, frankly.
Go learn how to socialize and make friends on your own, is what I recommend. You're lonely, you sound like you're clinging to this one woman for company instead of improving your social skills. (And, fwiw, I think this whole "my fiancée is trying to control me! What a jealous woman! She's wrong, right?" is really a narrative that lets you ignore and avoid the main problem: you have a sense that you're not as good as making friends as your fiancée is, you want friends and intimate friendships, but you don't know how to do it and so it's easier to get defensive about the few friends you have and the friendship you have with this woman than to try and improve your social skills. I could be wrong, of course, but in my experience, lots of men struggle with building friendships and connections and they're lonely because they don't get that you have to put time and effort into building and maintaining friendship. It's easier for them to become friends with women who will do a lot of the work of making plans, etc, and drive the friendship.)
posted by discopolo at 7:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [32 favorites]
I get this sense you're lonely, you said you have a really hard time making friends on your own, and so you're being super reliant on this friend of your wife's. While technically nothing has happened, we don't know what the female friend is thinking. I'm friends with all of my friends' husbands, but I would never develop a relationship with them independent of my relationship with my female friends. I wouldn't even go there, frankly.
Go learn how to socialize and make friends on your own, is what I recommend. You're lonely, you sound like you're clinging to this one woman for company instead of improving your social skills. (And, fwiw, I think this whole "my fiancée is trying to control me! What a jealous woman! She's wrong, right?" is really a narrative that lets you ignore and avoid the main problem: you have a sense that you're not as good as making friends as your fiancée is, you want friends and intimate friendships, but you don't know how to do it and so it's easier to get defensive about the few friends you have and the friendship you have with this woman than to try and improve your social skills. I could be wrong, of course, but in my experience, lots of men struggle with building friendships and connections and they're lonely because they don't get that you have to put time and effort into building and maintaining friendship. It's easier for them to become friends with women who will do a lot of the work of making plans, etc, and drive the friendship.)
posted by discopolo at 7:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [32 favorites]
Is it possible that your sort of fake first marriage gave you somewhat different ideas about how tightly an engaged or married couple should be tied to each other? (Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I read what you wrote as a green card marriage or a health insurance marriage.)
I think the fact that you don't make male friends easily makes this new friendship with L stand out more and look a fraction more suspicious. If you had four male friends that you texted a lot and and made lunch plans with on the other days of the week, this recent friendship with L would seem more in character. Both your friendship with L and F's friendship with L blossomed very quickly (at least the way it reads on paper.)
I don't have a straight up "See" or "Don't See" recommendation. But I felt for F when I heard the tale told as F had made a new friend and suddenly it feels like friend is dropping her to hang with you. I don't have enough friends right now, and a scenario like that could make me feel somewhat sad and left out, even if I didn't share your interest in some activity. The "we have different interests" situation has a positive side, but having frequent activities that you like to do without your partner is potentially an issue. Myself, I like a lot of partner time, but my spouse is less into holding hands and going every where together than I am. Like sexual desire, emotional desires vary and the right amount for each couple or triad probably needs to be negotiated. It's possible to be incompatible.
Just as I read the first paragraph, my gut empathy feeling was that your Fiancee didn't always feel loved in her childhood and maybe her parents were not very attentive or they favored one of her siblings, or she had a best friend who was prettier than she was. I don't want to sound all Freudian, but I suspect some kind of ego wound that makes her feel more threatened and disturbed when she loses the attention of her friend and also when she loses your attention. The sentence in her head that torments her might not be "He's going to cheat!" -- it might be "He likes her better than me."
posted by puddledork at 7:02 AM on January 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think the fact that you don't make male friends easily makes this new friendship with L stand out more and look a fraction more suspicious. If you had four male friends that you texted a lot and and made lunch plans with on the other days of the week, this recent friendship with L would seem more in character. Both your friendship with L and F's friendship with L blossomed very quickly (at least the way it reads on paper.)
I don't have a straight up "See" or "Don't See" recommendation. But I felt for F when I heard the tale told as F had made a new friend and suddenly it feels like friend is dropping her to hang with you. I don't have enough friends right now, and a scenario like that could make me feel somewhat sad and left out, even if I didn't share your interest in some activity. The "we have different interests" situation has a positive side, but having frequent activities that you like to do without your partner is potentially an issue. Myself, I like a lot of partner time, but my spouse is less into holding hands and going every where together than I am. Like sexual desire, emotional desires vary and the right amount for each couple or triad probably needs to be negotiated. It's possible to be incompatible.
Just as I read the first paragraph, my gut empathy feeling was that your Fiancee didn't always feel loved in her childhood and maybe her parents were not very attentive or they favored one of her siblings, or she had a best friend who was prettier than she was. I don't want to sound all Freudian, but I suspect some kind of ego wound that makes her feel more threatened and disturbed when she loses the attention of her friend and also when she loses your attention. The sentence in her head that torments her might not be "He's going to cheat!" -- it might be "He likes her better than me."
posted by puddledork at 7:02 AM on January 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think there are definitely cases in which it would be ridiculous for F to be mad about you hanging out with a platonic female friend. I think this is not one of those cases.
I think a lot of it is about newness. I'm trying to come up with a situation in which I'd be uncomfortable with manmillipede hanging out alone with a platonic female friend, and the only one I can think of is if it's a NEW friend. NEWness is the key. Going out to coffee with a person of the opposite sex you barely know feels a lot like a date. Which is fine if you're single (and then you and coffee-getter get to decide if it's a date or not a date), but if you're taken, the mere possibility of it being a date is too much. Again, this is the newness. Manmillipede regularly has meals with a female friend from high school: I'm 100% ok with this, because that relationship is 20 years old. Not a new variable. Alternately, and closer to your situation, last year, manmillipede and a very close female friend of mine were both not working 9-5 jobs. She and her boyfriend live near us. Manmillipede and veryclosefemalefriendofmine started to get coffee sometimes. I was 100% ok with this--their coffee times were new, but SHE is not new; I've known her for 10 years and he's known her for 4. I really think it's the new person, new activity that is the problem.
That is my very long way of telling you to listen to F on this one, and it won't set a precedent for you not being able to have friends. Maybe you can't have new female friends you go on datelike activities with. But there are other ways to have new friends.
posted by millipede at 7:06 AM on January 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
I think a lot of it is about newness. I'm trying to come up with a situation in which I'd be uncomfortable with manmillipede hanging out alone with a platonic female friend, and the only one I can think of is if it's a NEW friend. NEWness is the key. Going out to coffee with a person of the opposite sex you barely know feels a lot like a date. Which is fine if you're single (and then you and coffee-getter get to decide if it's a date or not a date), but if you're taken, the mere possibility of it being a date is too much. Again, this is the newness. Manmillipede regularly has meals with a female friend from high school: I'm 100% ok with this, because that relationship is 20 years old. Not a new variable. Alternately, and closer to your situation, last year, manmillipede and a very close female friend of mine were both not working 9-5 jobs. She and her boyfriend live near us. Manmillipede and veryclosefemalefriendofmine started to get coffee sometimes. I was 100% ok with this--their coffee times were new, but SHE is not new; I've known her for 10 years and he's known her for 4. I really think it's the new person, new activity that is the problem.
That is my very long way of telling you to listen to F on this one, and it won't set a precedent for you not being able to have friends. Maybe you can't have new female friends you go on datelike activities with. But there are other ways to have new friends.
posted by millipede at 7:06 AM on January 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
I trust my boyfriend, but it would feel really gross to me if he started hanging out and cooking dinners with another woman, and knowing that "sorry L, we can't cook together anymore because it makes F jealous" was a conversation that happened on my behalf would only make me feel worse.
It would be nice if everything in relationships could be 100% rational and all "He says he would never cheat and therefore I do not mind if he has suddenly become super tight with another woman and is making dinners with her," but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation to have in relationships. Your fiance doesn't have to be a controlling psycho to be made uncomfortable by your sudden, kind of intense-sounding friendship with this woman.
I agree with the other comments suggesting that you should work on making more friends in general. You don't say that your fiance has a habit of being jealous and controlling, so if this particular friendship is making her miserable, I really don't see why you wouldn't break it off- and really break it off, instead of drama-mongering by sending furtive texts to L about how jealous your girlfriend is.
posted by cakelite at 7:09 AM on January 13, 2016 [39 favorites]
It would be nice if everything in relationships could be 100% rational and all "He says he would never cheat and therefore I do not mind if he has suddenly become super tight with another woman and is making dinners with her," but I don't think that's a reasonable expectation to have in relationships. Your fiance doesn't have to be a controlling psycho to be made uncomfortable by your sudden, kind of intense-sounding friendship with this woman.
I agree with the other comments suggesting that you should work on making more friends in general. You don't say that your fiance has a habit of being jealous and controlling, so if this particular friendship is making her miserable, I really don't see why you wouldn't break it off- and really break it off, instead of drama-mongering by sending furtive texts to L about how jealous your girlfriend is.
posted by cakelite at 7:09 AM on January 13, 2016 [39 favorites]
Just as a data point: the way your friendship with L developed would definitely not be OK within the context of my marriage.
I have friends of the opposite sex and so does my husband. We text and talk about shared interests/hobbies. I meet my guy friend for a beer and talk about books, my husband meets his gal friend on the golf course to play a round. Sometimes we all hang out. We trust each other. We all know it's platonic. So I'm not coming at this from the angle of "no opposite sex friends allowed."
However, I'm trying to imagine a situation where I started texting one of his guy friends, or he started hanging out one-on-one with one of my gal friends? I just can't. That "co-opting" is the weird part. That's red flags all over the place.
The other red flag here is the drama and emotional investment you and L appear to have in each other. At the point where you're having these emotionally fraught text conversations about your relationship with each other and whether the friendship can continue? That's when things begin to look not-so-platonic.
So sorry, I'm with F. And I think your desire to see her as "irrational" is really pretty condescending and a big red flag too.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [83 favorites]
I have friends of the opposite sex and so does my husband. We text and talk about shared interests/hobbies. I meet my guy friend for a beer and talk about books, my husband meets his gal friend on the golf course to play a round. Sometimes we all hang out. We trust each other. We all know it's platonic. So I'm not coming at this from the angle of "no opposite sex friends allowed."
However, I'm trying to imagine a situation where I started texting one of his guy friends, or he started hanging out one-on-one with one of my gal friends? I just can't. That "co-opting" is the weird part. That's red flags all over the place.
The other red flag here is the drama and emotional investment you and L appear to have in each other. At the point where you're having these emotionally fraught text conversations about your relationship with each other and whether the friendship can continue? That's when things begin to look not-so-platonic.
So sorry, I'm with F. And I think your desire to see her as "irrational" is really pretty condescending and a big red flag too.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 7:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [83 favorites]
As a counterpoint, your friendship would have been fine in my marriage and your fiancee trying to control your friendships or limit your ability to discuss intimate details of your relationship with friends would not have been OK.
But that was a marriage that eventually became open, and ended, and I'm not monogamous generally. You're hitting a difference in norms around monogamy and the meaning of fidelity, and those can be very stubborn, culturally variable and hard to reconcile. There are couples all over the map on this issue. I have no advice beyond "proceed with caution and reflect carefully".
posted by ead at 7:29 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
But that was a marriage that eventually became open, and ended, and I'm not monogamous generally. You're hitting a difference in norms around monogamy and the meaning of fidelity, and those can be very stubborn, culturally variable and hard to reconcile. There are couples all over the map on this issue. I have no advice beyond "proceed with caution and reflect carefully".
posted by ead at 7:29 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
As far as I can tell from reading this, I don't think you did anything wrong, other than hanging out one on one with a single female. I don't get the vibe from you that you had romantic interest in her, and it doesn't sound like you were "talking shit about F behind her back" so much as "I don't want to upset F, not sure what to do here" level of conversation, which sounds totally reasonable to me given the circumstances. But I could be wrong. I've certainly read threads on AskMefi where the SO was right to be jealous because the dude definitely seemed to be heading in that direction, but I don't think this is one of them as far as I can tell.
Anyway....I don't really like the OMG SO JEALOUS people so I'm biased in that way, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who can't handle my being around people of the opposite sex. From what I've heard/seen from other people's relationships with someone jealous, this only gets worse. If I were you and chose to stay with F, I'd do my damndest to avoid any contact with women, period, because she might not be happy about it. But what do you do when say, you have to work with a female coworker on a project and F's not happy about that? What if she doesn't like your talking to your sister-in-law at family parties? You can't lock yourself in a tower away from all other women but her. It's not realistic for her to be all MIIIIIIIINE!!!!!!!!!! all the time. And that's where I have problems with the jealous. Jealous people won't ever trust you. I don't know what happened in F's life prior to lead her down that thorny path, but regardless of whatever L did or didn't do, I don't think it's good for your relationship if she continues to have problems with your being around someone of the opposite sex platonically.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyway....I don't really like the OMG SO JEALOUS people so I'm biased in that way, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who can't handle my being around people of the opposite sex. From what I've heard/seen from other people's relationships with someone jealous, this only gets worse. If I were you and chose to stay with F, I'd do my damndest to avoid any contact with women, period, because she might not be happy about it. But what do you do when say, you have to work with a female coworker on a project and F's not happy about that? What if she doesn't like your talking to your sister-in-law at family parties? You can't lock yourself in a tower away from all other women but her. It's not realistic for her to be all MIIIIIIIINE!!!!!!!!!! all the time. And that's where I have problems with the jealous. Jealous people won't ever trust you. I don't know what happened in F's life prior to lead her down that thorny path, but regardless of whatever L did or didn't do, I don't think it's good for your relationship if she continues to have problems with your being around someone of the opposite sex platonically.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:32 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I definitely wouldn't like this if it happened to me. I love that my husband gets on well with all of my good girlfriends, but I do think I would have a problem if he just started randomly hanging out with them without me and spent all day texting them.
Yes, it all essentially boils down to insecurity, but I also wonder about L's motives because I know for sure that I would never cross that boundary with a friend's fiancé, especially if my friend had made it clear she wasn't ok with it..... and if she's as good a friend to F as you suggest, it should never have escalated to this point. So you say it's platonic from your point of view, but what about hers?
You've been underhanded and disrespectful of your fiancé. You obviously really still want L in your life but at what cost?
posted by JenThePro at 7:36 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, it all essentially boils down to insecurity, but I also wonder about L's motives because I know for sure that I would never cross that boundary with a friend's fiancé, especially if my friend had made it clear she wasn't ok with it..... and if she's as good a friend to F as you suggest, it should never have escalated to this point. So you say it's platonic from your point of view, but what about hers?
You've been underhanded and disrespectful of your fiancé. You obviously really still want L in your life but at what cost?
posted by JenThePro at 7:36 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
"However, in the ultimate incident, F decided to read my text messages (I should be clear that this is just an incredibly out-of-character incident for her and I have no reason to believe she'd ever done it before), read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight. I felt like my privacy had been violated, F was upset that L and I had discussed her. "
This is way, way, way, way, way out of line on your part, especially since you already knew that your friendship with L was making F uncomfortable. I would flip my shit regardless of the gender of the friend; you don't go telling tales out of school about your relationship to a MUTUAL FRIEND, and especially not over text! You do that shit quietly in a bar with someone who's "your" friend, utterly tight-lipped, and who is going to listen, not really give advice.
What you did, turning to L for venting and advice about your relationship with F, puts L squarely in the middle of your relationship -- not in a romantic way, but in a way where you are clearly a) trying to pull mutual friends onto "your" side of the fight; b) telling others about your private business without consulting with F first; and c) seeking allies to prove your "rightness" to F instead of discussing between the two of you. You've drawn battle lines; you and F are on opposite side; and you are recruiting allies. F did not even know you were declaring war, and yet here she is set on the defensive against you and you've got a big head start on recruitment. Not cricket.
The only friend-fight my husband and I have ever had was about a friend of his who kept giving him "advice" about our relationship that, even though he was mostly supportive, felt like he was trying to make himself a third wheel in our marriage and like he wanted to control my husband's role in our relationship and make sure my husband's behavior fit the friend's attitudes towards marriage. (Boundaries re-established that dude does not get to commentate in ANY WAY on our marriage and husband will not stand for it, friendship continues many years later with much less drama.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:39 AM on January 13, 2016 [40 favorites]
This is way, way, way, way, way out of line on your part, especially since you already knew that your friendship with L was making F uncomfortable. I would flip my shit regardless of the gender of the friend; you don't go telling tales out of school about your relationship to a MUTUAL FRIEND, and especially not over text! You do that shit quietly in a bar with someone who's "your" friend, utterly tight-lipped, and who is going to listen, not really give advice.
What you did, turning to L for venting and advice about your relationship with F, puts L squarely in the middle of your relationship -- not in a romantic way, but in a way where you are clearly a) trying to pull mutual friends onto "your" side of the fight; b) telling others about your private business without consulting with F first; and c) seeking allies to prove your "rightness" to F instead of discussing between the two of you. You've drawn battle lines; you and F are on opposite side; and you are recruiting allies. F did not even know you were declaring war, and yet here she is set on the defensive against you and you've got a big head start on recruitment. Not cricket.
The only friend-fight my husband and I have ever had was about a friend of his who kept giving him "advice" about our relationship that, even though he was mostly supportive, felt like he was trying to make himself a third wheel in our marriage and like he wanted to control my husband's role in our relationship and make sure my husband's behavior fit the friend's attitudes towards marriage. (Boundaries re-established that dude does not get to commentate in ANY WAY on our marriage and husband will not stand for it, friendship continues many years later with much less drama.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:39 AM on January 13, 2016 [40 favorites]
Dude, that's your future wife. If she's crying out and saying that she's uncomfortable, you gotta cut L loose.
Partners that exercise veto control over their spouses relationships have been enormously destructive in my extended family, to the extent of an entire generation of grandkids losing contact with their grandparent. This isn't that, but I don't know, people who want to be able to control who one has a relationship with are worrying.
Talking this out, perhaps with the help of a councilor isn't the worst idea. It's a big problem for her and for you. I wouldn't let it lie.
posted by bonehead at 7:39 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Partners that exercise veto control over their spouses relationships have been enormously destructive in my extended family, to the extent of an entire generation of grandkids losing contact with their grandparent. This isn't that, but I don't know, people who want to be able to control who one has a relationship with are worrying.
Talking this out, perhaps with the help of a councilor isn't the worst idea. It's a big problem for her and for you. I wouldn't let it lie.
posted by bonehead at 7:39 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
"Jealous people won't ever trust you."
This is bull honky. It's not like people can be sorted into two groups 1) not at all jealous, totally chill with everything, and 2) crazy jealous, will never trust you (usually women, of course). Jealousy is a "normal" human emotion, one that every person has felt at some point in time, and it can be triggered by circumstances in people who aren't typically jealous. Certainly some people fall on the far end of that spectrum, getting jealous at every little thing, and those people should be avoided. Since the OP said this is the first instance of F's jealousy in four years, I'm going to assume that she's not usually a jealous person and there is something about they way in which this specific friendship is playing out that is making her uneasy.
posted by scantee at 7:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
This is bull honky. It's not like people can be sorted into two groups 1) not at all jealous, totally chill with everything, and 2) crazy jealous, will never trust you (usually women, of course). Jealousy is a "normal" human emotion, one that every person has felt at some point in time, and it can be triggered by circumstances in people who aren't typically jealous. Certainly some people fall on the far end of that spectrum, getting jealous at every little thing, and those people should be avoided. Since the OP said this is the first instance of F's jealousy in four years, I'm going to assume that she's not usually a jealous person and there is something about they way in which this specific friendship is playing out that is making her uneasy.
posted by scantee at 7:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
The thing about you discussing F with L is just icky. You don't discuss issues with your partner with a friend, especially a female friend that your partner is already having issues of insecurity with.
Sometimes we get a feeling that something's not quite right about a relationship between our partner and a friend. It might be appear more intimate than is appropriate, or it grinds our gears in some way. If we respectfully ask for our partner to dial it down, or pull back a bit, that should be the end of it. In the reverse situation, if you felt that way, your partner would have to pull it back.
Your partner trusts you, she may not trust L. If L is a new friend, I get it. If I befriended someone and discovered that she and Husbunny were spending alone time together, I'm not sure I'd be okay with that. Especially if I didn't know her that well. I don't know to many people who would be okay with it.
Flip it around. Say you had a new buddy. You all enjoyed time together, but suddenly F and he found out they both liked Star Trek and they started going to conventions alone together. That they texted each other leaving you out. That she complained to him about you. I'm pretty sure it would make you uncomfortable. Not suspicious per se, but just 'Doesn't Seem Quite Right'.
For sure, do some premarital counseling, but you need to understand that you give the appearance of impropriety and you crossed a significant boundary by discussing your relationship with a third party.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:54 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Sometimes we get a feeling that something's not quite right about a relationship between our partner and a friend. It might be appear more intimate than is appropriate, or it grinds our gears in some way. If we respectfully ask for our partner to dial it down, or pull back a bit, that should be the end of it. In the reverse situation, if you felt that way, your partner would have to pull it back.
Your partner trusts you, she may not trust L. If L is a new friend, I get it. If I befriended someone and discovered that she and Husbunny were spending alone time together, I'm not sure I'd be okay with that. Especially if I didn't know her that well. I don't know to many people who would be okay with it.
Flip it around. Say you had a new buddy. You all enjoyed time together, but suddenly F and he found out they both liked Star Trek and they started going to conventions alone together. That they texted each other leaving you out. That she complained to him about you. I'm pretty sure it would make you uncomfortable. Not suspicious per se, but just 'Doesn't Seem Quite Right'.
For sure, do some premarital counseling, but you need to understand that you give the appearance of impropriety and you crossed a significant boundary by discussing your relationship with a third party.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 7:54 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
It's less about the opposite sex friends yes/no than some specific things that went down:
-- L was F's friend first, and a new friend.
-- You don't share as many interests with F, but a lot with L. This might be an issue for F because she might feel insecure that you don't share interests, and here you're spending time with someone whose interests mesh well with yours.
-- F shouldn't have snooped on your phone, but you also REALLY shouldn't have been texting with L about your relationship with F. I have a good male friend who is married, I am single, and his wife is very cool with us hanging out together without her - she travels a lot for work but she is ALWAYS welcome when we hang out together. If he started texting me about their relationship though I'd feel really weirded out.
But also this part sticks out:
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns.
You and your fiancee should be the we. Not you and L. F feels ganged up on, that really sucks, and she feels like you're not listening.
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 AM on January 13, 2016 [34 favorites]
-- L was F's friend first, and a new friend.
-- You don't share as many interests with F, but a lot with L. This might be an issue for F because she might feel insecure that you don't share interests, and here you're spending time with someone whose interests mesh well with yours.
-- F shouldn't have snooped on your phone, but you also REALLY shouldn't have been texting with L about your relationship with F. I have a good male friend who is married, I am single, and his wife is very cool with us hanging out together without her - she travels a lot for work but she is ALWAYS welcome when we hang out together. If he started texting me about their relationship though I'd feel really weirded out.
But also this part sticks out:
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns.
You and your fiancee should be the we. Not you and L. F feels ganged up on, that really sucks, and she feels like you're not listening.
posted by sweetkid at 7:57 AM on January 13, 2016 [34 favorites]
Full disclaimer here: I'm coming at this from the perspective of a bi person for whom "you can't have outside friends of the sex/gender you're attracted to" would literally mean "you can't have any outside friends ever", so that probably colors my thoughts here. But I am also deeply hardwired monogamous, and have a stronger tendency to jealousy than I'm proud of, so there are your grains of salt for the following:
I see two red flags here. One being F's snooping, for sure. The other being, not your overall friendship with L, but the part where you and L are discussing your relationship with F *specifically as it relates to your friendship with L*.
Personally, I do talk to my friends about difficult things in my relationship, and I expect my partner does the same with his friends - I want that support network and I want him to have the same. (I do generally rein that in pretty tightly with mutual friends, so as to avoid putting them in a weird position.) But if I were having some sort of disagreement with my partner about a specific friendship, I would never take that up in conversation *with* that particular friend - I would feel that my primary responsibility and effort should be in working that through with my partner. If I needed to vent, I'd do it to a different friend not directly involved. Having that conversation with the friend feels like turning it into an "us-against-them" thing where "us" is me + friend, and that's not how my relationship works - "us" is me + partner, and friends are deeply valued and important but when shit is blowing up, my primary allegiance is always to working that shit out with my partner. I've been in this scenario and that's where I ended up.
Now, that's just how I do things! Doesn't have to be how you do things! But you and F do have to be on the same page about what's okay in this scenario.
"Who's to blame" and "which of us is the monster" are the wrong questions. The right questions are "what do we as a couple want our friendships to look like, where does that differ, and how can we negotiate that difference to an outcome we're both happy with?" It's good that you're doing counseling; your counselor can help you talk through that.
In the meanwhile, you probably do need to let the friendship go for now. Maybe you can come back to it later, or develop new friendships, once you've done the work with your partner. I hope you can! Friendships outside a partnership are incredibly important and affirming and you deserve to have them. But this particular one may be burned too badly to save, and can't be your priority right now until you get on the same page with F, whatever that page ends up looking like.
posted by Stacey at 8:02 AM on January 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
I see two red flags here. One being F's snooping, for sure. The other being, not your overall friendship with L, but the part where you and L are discussing your relationship with F *specifically as it relates to your friendship with L*.
Personally, I do talk to my friends about difficult things in my relationship, and I expect my partner does the same with his friends - I want that support network and I want him to have the same. (I do generally rein that in pretty tightly with mutual friends, so as to avoid putting them in a weird position.) But if I were having some sort of disagreement with my partner about a specific friendship, I would never take that up in conversation *with* that particular friend - I would feel that my primary responsibility and effort should be in working that through with my partner. If I needed to vent, I'd do it to a different friend not directly involved. Having that conversation with the friend feels like turning it into an "us-against-them" thing where "us" is me + friend, and that's not how my relationship works - "us" is me + partner, and friends are deeply valued and important but when shit is blowing up, my primary allegiance is always to working that shit out with my partner. I've been in this scenario and that's where I ended up.
Now, that's just how I do things! Doesn't have to be how you do things! But you and F do have to be on the same page about what's okay in this scenario.
"Who's to blame" and "which of us is the monster" are the wrong questions. The right questions are "what do we as a couple want our friendships to look like, where does that differ, and how can we negotiate that difference to an outcome we're both happy with?" It's good that you're doing counseling; your counselor can help you talk through that.
In the meanwhile, you probably do need to let the friendship go for now. Maybe you can come back to it later, or develop new friendships, once you've done the work with your partner. I hope you can! Friendships outside a partnership are incredibly important and affirming and you deserve to have them. But this particular one may be burned too badly to save, and can't be your priority right now until you get on the same page with F, whatever that page ends up looking like.
posted by Stacey at 8:02 AM on January 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
I can tell you that this bit is where it all went off the rails and if you are serious about avoiding future problems, you need to be really attuned to this dynamic.
I believe if you had addressed it promptly and made her feel comfortable that there was nothing threatening about your relationship, it might have ended very differently. Being defensive, just changing the specific things she complained about and then discussing your personal interactions with L behind her back is pretty much a bullet-proof formula for escalating this into big-time drama.
I think you are right that it is unhealthy for one partner to insist that the other not have any friends outside the relationship, but you haven't really found out if that is true or not. I also think that it would still be productive to take some time to learn when and why she started to feel troubled by your relationship with L, so that she feels like you understand her concerns. If you don't get to that level, you run the risk that every new friendship with a women reminds her of this one and brings up the same negative feelings. Only when she feels you understand what she felt and she is sure that you are looking out for her feelings will you really get past this.
posted by Lame_username at 8:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [62 favorites]
Anyway, F started to get a little weird about it. Some of it I could understand- She didn't like L and I cooking together because it had certain connotations. Sure, bummer, okay fine. Then she didn't like us going to the bookstore together. Then she really didn't like that we'd text during the day about records or books or whateverIt is an absolute certainty that F thinks that she was telling you repeatedly that she was concerned that your relationship with L was becoming a problem during this time. You chose to interpret this literally as "we shouldn't cook together" or "we shouldn't go to the bookstore together." That was a misunderstanding on your part. She was telling you that she believed your relationship with L was becoming inappropriate or threatening to her and you read it as having an issue with bookstores and kitchens. If you notice F "getting a little weird" about something, you will benefit tremendously by having deep and open conversation about exactly what she is feeling and what she is trying to tell you. I'm 100% sure you were missing many big neon signs from her here. Obviously, she should have done a better job of making it clear to you, but you share a responsibility to try to understand her feelings when she expresses them.
I believe if you had addressed it promptly and made her feel comfortable that there was nothing threatening about your relationship, it might have ended very differently. Being defensive, just changing the specific things she complained about and then discussing your personal interactions with L behind her back is pretty much a bullet-proof formula for escalating this into big-time drama.
I think you are right that it is unhealthy for one partner to insist that the other not have any friends outside the relationship, but you haven't really found out if that is true or not. I also think that it would still be productive to take some time to learn when and why she started to feel troubled by your relationship with L, so that she feels like you understand her concerns. If you don't get to that level, you run the risk that every new friendship with a women reminds her of this one and brings up the same negative feelings. Only when she feels you understand what she felt and she is sure that you are looking out for her feelings will you really get past this.
posted by Lame_username at 8:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [62 favorites]
So F has never been jealous of your platonic friendships before and you've been together years? That leads me to think that F is not some unreasonable type who doesn't want you to have any friends outside the relationship, but that she has picked up on some kind of vibe between you and L that she doesn't like. And to be honest, I think I'm picking up on it too. Things like "I didn't want to have a secret friendship with L" (why would keeping a normal friendship secret even be a consideration?), the texts discussing your relationship (ouch) and the fact that you seem more annoyed that F has put an end to your friendship with L than worried that this friendship could ruin your relationship. I think perhaps you are not being entirely honest with yourself, or thinking that if nothing romantic or sexual is said or done, there is nothing wrong. But these vibes can be very pervasive and very obvious to the onlooking girlfriend.
posted by intensitymultiply at 8:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [32 favorites]
posted by intensitymultiply at 8:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [32 favorites]
I'm gay.
Most of my friends are gay.
If I were contemplating marriage to someone, and he got bent out of shape because of platonic relationships I have with gay friends, I'd be facing a choice between ever having male friends, or getting married. And I therefore wouldn't be getting married.
Because here's the thing: this is a pattern being set. You're not going to be allowed to have female friends.
Only you can decide if you're okay with that.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Most of my friends are gay.
If I were contemplating marriage to someone, and he got bent out of shape because of platonic relationships I have with gay friends, I'd be facing a choice between ever having male friends, or getting married. And I therefore wouldn't be getting married.
Because here's the thing: this is a pattern being set. You're not going to be allowed to have female friends.
Only you can decide if you're okay with that.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
read some chatter between L and I about how I felt a little stuck and unsure of what to do about F, and we had a huge fight.
Yeah this is where my feelings shifted. I get what you are saying and I think part of the issue was, as Lame_username says, your fiancee was sending you signals which she wanted you to interpret broadly and you interpreted them pretty narrowly. This is just a difference in communication style but it is one the two of you need to work out.
BUT, the big deal is that you and F are working towards becoming a team, Team Us. At the point at which there is a problem with Team Us, you do not go discussing it with the person who has been implicated in the problem especially if the person is someone you are in a slightly ambiguous relationship with. So my read is that at that point, instead of being all "Hey F what can I do to help make this work better for Team Us?" you double down and start texting L about it which to many people, especially anxious people, is really over the line.
So I don't see this as "you not being able to have opposite sex friends" I see it a lot more as you not being great at reading F's signals and getting a little huffy that you can't have exactly what you want and/or you not understanding how to navigate social boundaries.
Me and my guy have a lot of opposite sex friends and this needs to be okay (for both of us) but if he started spending one-on-one time with a female friend of mine and was sort of oblivious to me basically saying I felt weird about it, that would be a thing even though opposite sex friendships are a non-issue for us.
I think you're being a bit weird about this and retelling the story in a way that makes your actions a bit more understandable and charitable (hey, we all do that) but I think you need to step away from this and cut L loose, presuming you are still on board with marrying F. Otherwise if you think this has highlighted a fundamental rift for the two of you, that should get out in the open like yesterday. Best of luck.
posted by jessamyn at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
Yeah this is where my feelings shifted. I get what you are saying and I think part of the issue was, as Lame_username says, your fiancee was sending you signals which she wanted you to interpret broadly and you interpreted them pretty narrowly. This is just a difference in communication style but it is one the two of you need to work out.
BUT, the big deal is that you and F are working towards becoming a team, Team Us. At the point at which there is a problem with Team Us, you do not go discussing it with the person who has been implicated in the problem especially if the person is someone you are in a slightly ambiguous relationship with. So my read is that at that point, instead of being all "Hey F what can I do to help make this work better for Team Us?" you double down and start texting L about it which to many people, especially anxious people, is really over the line.
So I don't see this as "you not being able to have opposite sex friends" I see it a lot more as you not being great at reading F's signals and getting a little huffy that you can't have exactly what you want and/or you not understanding how to navigate social boundaries.
Me and my guy have a lot of opposite sex friends and this needs to be okay (for both of us) but if he started spending one-on-one time with a female friend of mine and was sort of oblivious to me basically saying I felt weird about it, that would be a thing even though opposite sex friendships are a non-issue for us.
I think you're being a bit weird about this and retelling the story in a way that makes your actions a bit more understandable and charitable (hey, we all do that) but I think you need to step away from this and cut L loose, presuming you are still on board with marrying F. Otherwise if you think this has highlighted a fundamental rift for the two of you, that should get out in the open like yesterday. Best of luck.
posted by jessamyn at 8:43 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
Wait, in the first part of your question you describe your relationship with L as just bookstore buddies who nerd out together (I was imagining you just swapping graphic novels and talking about superhero movies) but later you let on that actually, you've been talking about your relationship with L and have triangulated this entire drama. But what stands out to me most is how you reveal that to us, in an indirect way, only visible here and there by the pronouns you choose, or in subordinate clauses, in passing.
I don't mean this in a gotcha way, and when you say your friendship with L is platonic I'll take that at face value. But the thing I want to point out is: even when asking us this question, you seemed to mislead us to believe that the emotional intimacy you have with your friend is less than what it actually is.
So I'm thinking - could this be a pattern in your interactions? That you obfuscate or omit or tint your facts when you communicate with your fiancee?
If so (and it's very hard to admit to oneself, so go ahead and take a moment), that would explain why F doesn't feel like she can trust you implicitly. And why she felt like she had to snoop (which is not cool), and why she found something that she didn't expect (but probably feared). Subtle misleading and not-quite-lies create a haze of uncertainty and doubt around the relationship, because the partner can often sense something's a bit off. And even if the purpose was to avoid conflict and simplify interactions, that's where things start going wrong.
posted by sively at 8:44 AM on January 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
I don't mean this in a gotcha way, and when you say your friendship with L is platonic I'll take that at face value. But the thing I want to point out is: even when asking us this question, you seemed to mislead us to believe that the emotional intimacy you have with your friend is less than what it actually is.
So I'm thinking - could this be a pattern in your interactions? That you obfuscate or omit or tint your facts when you communicate with your fiancee?
If so (and it's very hard to admit to oneself, so go ahead and take a moment), that would explain why F doesn't feel like she can trust you implicitly. And why she felt like she had to snoop (which is not cool), and why she found something that she didn't expect (but probably feared). Subtle misleading and not-quite-lies create a haze of uncertainty and doubt around the relationship, because the partner can often sense something's a bit off. And even if the purpose was to avoid conflict and simplify interactions, that's where things start going wrong.
posted by sively at 8:44 AM on January 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
Everyone's pretty well covered the bases here, but just to add a data point: I could absolutely have written this question at one point in my life. Platonic friendship, someone my spouse really liked and initially encouraged me to bond with, then gradually spouse became less comfortable and felt like boundaries were crossed, yadda.
Well yeah so the deal was I had a wall of denial about 8 feet thick about the fact that I absolutely a) was falling for the friend and b) had become way the hell incompatible with my spouse. But both of these things were crystal clear to any outside observer. Many years later, when discussing the whole disaster, my ex said it wasn't like Friend and I were ever especially flirty, or anything obvious like that. He said it was a subtle shift in my priorities and my allegiances; at some point he realized that Friend had become my Best Friend, while Spouse was like, "decent acquaintance."
So, you know. YMMV but check yoself before you wreck yoself.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [56 favorites]
Well yeah so the deal was I had a wall of denial about 8 feet thick about the fact that I absolutely a) was falling for the friend and b) had become way the hell incompatible with my spouse. But both of these things were crystal clear to any outside observer. Many years later, when discussing the whole disaster, my ex said it wasn't like Friend and I were ever especially flirty, or anything obvious like that. He said it was a subtle shift in my priorities and my allegiances; at some point he realized that Friend had become my Best Friend, while Spouse was like, "decent acquaintance."
So, you know. YMMV but check yoself before you wreck yoself.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [56 favorites]
I think both you and L made it weird.
I have male and female friends, and some of them are couples. I try to be very careful to be attentive to both members of the couple and to do it as openly as I can (via public Facebook posts everybody can see, for example). And I can't imagine making a new female friend and then more or less ignoring her to focus on her partner.
I recognize I live in a very sexist society, and perhaps that's why I behave that way. But I see it as an expression of love and care for my friends. The last thing I'd want to do is to create conflict among them. So why it was so easy for L to give one-on-one attention to you and not to your wife?
posted by clearlydemon at 9:00 AM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I have male and female friends, and some of them are couples. I try to be very careful to be attentive to both members of the couple and to do it as openly as I can (via public Facebook posts everybody can see, for example). And I can't imagine making a new female friend and then more or less ignoring her to focus on her partner.
I recognize I live in a very sexist society, and perhaps that's why I behave that way. But I see it as an expression of love and care for my friends. The last thing I'd want to do is to create conflict among them. So why it was so easy for L to give one-on-one attention to you and not to your wife?
posted by clearlydemon at 9:00 AM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm of the opinion that all 3 of you are wrong and this entire situation is effed. You are focusing very much on how your wife (fiancée, whatever) is wrong. She may be a little bit wrong. But you are not focusing on how F is wrong. And you are especially not focusing at all on how you may be even slightly wrong yourself. That worries me a LOT. Usually people can admit, especially in a spousal relationship which typically requires more compromise than any other relationship in life, that they are partially in the wrong, even if just for the sake of keeping the peace. I am seeing a very thick, high wall of "nope nope nope irrational can't understand won't even try to understand it's unthinkable and totally out of the question", which well, reads like a giant neon blinking sign of THE LADY DOTH PROTEST TOO MUCH. (You are not a lady, but you understand the quote, yeah? It means overcompensating and over-denying to cover up something that's really there.) Trust me dude, you'd look about 1000% more innocent to everyone here, your wife, your therapist, and general society if you admitted even slightly "well, yeah, these things do happen and I see that." Something to seriously consider.
Then L and I started occasionally hanging out on our own. Not often, but we'd grab lunch or go to the bookstore or something. L and I had very similar interests in a bunch of things and it was nice to have someone to nerd out with. 90% the time, it was all 3 of us, but the other 10% it'd be just L and I.
This is pretty passively worded. "We just started hanging out." Who made the first move? When did your wife stop hanging out with her one-on-one? Did she text you and invite you out alone, and roughly at the same time, stop texting your wife? That's kind of shitty of her and makes her a kind of shitty person.
(Let me digress really quickly: I cannot be more clear about how platonic this is. I love F dearly and would never do anything to endanger that, I just liked having a friend. I'm not bad at making friends per-se, but I don't have many "hey let's hangout" friends. I find it hard to relate to people or to build that bridge, but over time I've established stable of 5 or 6 people I really rely on and L was quickly joining those ranks. )
Platonic FOR YOU. What about for her? Does she have a crush on you and you "rely" on her for emotional support in return? Shitty of her, shitty of you. And I notice you feel the need to throw up this huge wall of STRICTLY PLATONIC STRICTLY PLANTONIC. Why do you think you need to throw up that wall? Because you KNOW dude, you KNOW, that it looks like it's not. Come on, just admit you. You know that's where everyone was going to go. Why is your wife not worthy of this disclaimer but all of society is? Why is Metafilter's judgment of possible impropriety that you are so quick to negate to be expected, but your own wife's (fiancée's, whatever) is TOTALLY IRRATIONAL?
posted by quincunx at 9:03 AM on January 13, 2016 [34 favorites]
Then L and I started occasionally hanging out on our own. Not often, but we'd grab lunch or go to the bookstore or something. L and I had very similar interests in a bunch of things and it was nice to have someone to nerd out with. 90% the time, it was all 3 of us, but the other 10% it'd be just L and I.
This is pretty passively worded. "We just started hanging out." Who made the first move? When did your wife stop hanging out with her one-on-one? Did she text you and invite you out alone, and roughly at the same time, stop texting your wife? That's kind of shitty of her and makes her a kind of shitty person.
(Let me digress really quickly: I cannot be more clear about how platonic this is. I love F dearly and would never do anything to endanger that, I just liked having a friend. I'm not bad at making friends per-se, but I don't have many "hey let's hangout" friends. I find it hard to relate to people or to build that bridge, but over time I've established stable of 5 or 6 people I really rely on and L was quickly joining those ranks. )
Platonic FOR YOU. What about for her? Does she have a crush on you and you "rely" on her for emotional support in return? Shitty of her, shitty of you. And I notice you feel the need to throw up this huge wall of STRICTLY PLATONIC STRICTLY PLANTONIC. Why do you think you need to throw up that wall? Because you KNOW dude, you KNOW, that it looks like it's not. Come on, just admit you. You know that's where everyone was going to go. Why is your wife not worthy of this disclaimer but all of society is? Why is Metafilter's judgment of possible impropriety that you are so quick to negate to be expected, but your own wife's (fiancée's, whatever) is TOTALLY IRRATIONAL?
posted by quincunx at 9:03 AM on January 13, 2016 [34 favorites]
What I get from this is - you are using this fight and atmosphere of conflict to decide what your future will be. You've sort of crystallized (probably) more things than this one issue into this one issue.
Here we see: communication problems, jealousy problems, intimacy problems, lack of shared interests problems, trust problems, not to mention sexual problems (which you did NOT mention, but I think that's for a reason).
You cannot tell me that in the midst of all this drama your sex life is peachy. So the lack of info about sex is, I think, on purpose because it adds even more crap to the conflict. (Of course I may be wrong and if so, I apologize.) Anyway.
Look up the Dan Savage "Price of Admission" blog post. You are essentially at a decision point of "what is the price of admission for this relationship?"
Be with F, and do whatever it takes, if she is The One. Decide what you are willing to pay, pay it, and shut up about it.
If F is not The One, end it. Release her, and yourself, and move on to a relationship where you are not in a constant state of feeling like you have to sacrifice yourself. When people feel this way, they are living out of fear. That is not the basis of a strong, healthy, dynamic, FUCK YEAH! relationship. It is a life of endless settling and resentment.
It is really that simple.
I would never want to be with someone, let alone MARRY them, if they were not 100% FUCK YEAH!! about me in every way.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:06 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Here we see: communication problems, jealousy problems, intimacy problems, lack of shared interests problems, trust problems, not to mention sexual problems (which you did NOT mention, but I think that's for a reason).
You cannot tell me that in the midst of all this drama your sex life is peachy. So the lack of info about sex is, I think, on purpose because it adds even more crap to the conflict. (Of course I may be wrong and if so, I apologize.) Anyway.
Look up the Dan Savage "Price of Admission" blog post. You are essentially at a decision point of "what is the price of admission for this relationship?"
Be with F, and do whatever it takes, if she is The One. Decide what you are willing to pay, pay it, and shut up about it.
If F is not The One, end it. Release her, and yourself, and move on to a relationship where you are not in a constant state of feeling like you have to sacrifice yourself. When people feel this way, they are living out of fear. That is not the basis of a strong, healthy, dynamic, FUCK YEAH! relationship. It is a life of endless settling and resentment.
It is really that simple.
I would never want to be with someone, let alone MARRY them, if they were not 100% FUCK YEAH!! about me in every way.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:06 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would neither date nor marry someone this possessive and controlling.
posted by wintersweet at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by wintersweet at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think you need to check your relationship with L. From what you've described, I would not trust L, and I would not be friends with someone like that. She smells of trouble and manipulation, although I guess you wouldn't think so. (The best manipulators make people feel as if they aren't being manipulated and rather acting of their own free will, though.)
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns.
Like someone earlier pointed out, why has the "we" in this story become you and L? What happened to the "we" that should be you and F?
L is hurt by this, feeling she didn't do anything wrong.
Lol. Poor L. Surrrre, she doesn't mean to keep on disrespecting her friend (and by friend, I mean F) and her friend's relationship - even when she's been made aware, repeatedly, by how her friend thinks she is crossing lines.
L is encroaching on the kind of emotional intimacy you should be sharing with your fiancee/wife. She seems to be denying this and making it seem like she's the victim ('why are you angry at me? I'm just having private emotionally intimate conversations and sharing date-like one-on-one time (cooking together! lunches!) with your husband-to-be.... as a friend!'). L may share common interests with you, but I hope you can look at her more critically in terms of her character.
posted by aielen at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns.
Like someone earlier pointed out, why has the "we" in this story become you and L? What happened to the "we" that should be you and F?
L is hurt by this, feeling she didn't do anything wrong.
Lol. Poor L. Surrrre, she doesn't mean to keep on disrespecting her friend (and by friend, I mean F) and her friend's relationship - even when she's been made aware, repeatedly, by how her friend thinks she is crossing lines.
L is encroaching on the kind of emotional intimacy you should be sharing with your fiancee/wife. She seems to be denying this and making it seem like she's the victim ('why are you angry at me? I'm just having private emotionally intimate conversations and sharing date-like one-on-one time (cooking together! lunches!) with your husband-to-be.... as a friend!'). L may share common interests with you, but I hope you can look at her more critically in terms of her character.
posted by aielen at 9:13 AM on January 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
Metafilter has a really odd (to me) but consistent collective voice that says "if my SO communicates with/has dinner with/is friends with people of the opposite gender/sexual preference then that is not ok" and I think that is pretty sad and pretty nutty. (seriously, there are grown-ass adults on here stating that their SO cannot see a movie with a mutual friend of the opposite gender!)
I'm with the minority here, she is setting a pattern that you cannot have close opposite gender friends, for me that is unacceptable. The fact that you may have crossed a line is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with as well.
In my own group of friends, thankfully, everyone is pretty friendly with everyone, I have regular solo outings with members of the opposite sex who are in monogamous relationships with other members of this group, it works because we trust each other.
Sorry if this was ranty, for me this issue is probably the strangest Metafilter majority opinion. (who knows, maybe I am way wrong)
posted by Cosine at 9:22 AM on January 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
I'm with the minority here, she is setting a pattern that you cannot have close opposite gender friends, for me that is unacceptable. The fact that you may have crossed a line is a separate issue that needs to be dealt with as well.
In my own group of friends, thankfully, everyone is pretty friendly with everyone, I have regular solo outings with members of the opposite sex who are in monogamous relationships with other members of this group, it works because we trust each other.
Sorry if this was ranty, for me this issue is probably the strangest Metafilter majority opinion. (who knows, maybe I am way wrong)
posted by Cosine at 9:22 AM on January 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
I think you need to figure out where you stand in terms of what kind of friendships you want to have outside of your relationship/marriage, and this thread demonstrates the wide range of approaches.
I mean, if I were you, I would run far, far away from F. But I am a woman in a monogamous relationship with a man, and one of my best friends is also a man. We hang out together, talk about almost anything (including our relationships), have shared hotel rooms together, etc. One of my SO's best friends is a woman. She stays at his tiny one-bedroom apartment whenever she is town, for days at a time, which means that they are also cooking together and stuff like that. It's never occurred to either of us to shut down either of these relationships or any of the other friendships either of us has. If that came up, it would be a huge, massive problem. I can't actually imagine trying to dictate who he could and couldn't hang out with, and vice versa.
In my circle of friends, this kind of thing is really common and normal, as is texting people of whatever gender about common interests and things. F sounds bizarre and insecure and controlling to me, and her behavior would be a deal breaker; obviously, people feel differently.
I did once, long ago in a different relationship, end a budding opposite-sex friendship that made my SO uncomfortable. That was one red flag for what were some serious problems in the relationship down the road.
But you have to figure out what's going to be acceptable for you, and what you can live with, for the rest of your life.
posted by tiger tiger at 9:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean, if I were you, I would run far, far away from F. But I am a woman in a monogamous relationship with a man, and one of my best friends is also a man. We hang out together, talk about almost anything (including our relationships), have shared hotel rooms together, etc. One of my SO's best friends is a woman. She stays at his tiny one-bedroom apartment whenever she is town, for days at a time, which means that they are also cooking together and stuff like that. It's never occurred to either of us to shut down either of these relationships or any of the other friendships either of us has. If that came up, it would be a huge, massive problem. I can't actually imagine trying to dictate who he could and couldn't hang out with, and vice versa.
In my circle of friends, this kind of thing is really common and normal, as is texting people of whatever gender about common interests and things. F sounds bizarre and insecure and controlling to me, and her behavior would be a deal breaker; obviously, people feel differently.
I did once, long ago in a different relationship, end a budding opposite-sex friendship that made my SO uncomfortable. That was one red flag for what were some serious problems in the relationship down the road.
But you have to figure out what's going to be acceptable for you, and what you can live with, for the rest of your life.
posted by tiger tiger at 9:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Will some relationships she has make me more uncomfortable than others? Yes, absolutely. But, to me, that's the world. L feel pretty similarly.
Why does it matter how L feels about this issue? F is your partner. You and L can agree about all kinds of things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, F is the one you have to come to terms with.
Maybe check out Esther Perel's work on fidelity, desire, and long-term relationships. It might help to reframe this issue away from arguing over who is "right" or "wrong" about opposite-sex friendships and whether this friendship is out of bounds in some absolute, technical sense, and instead start talking with F from a place of, "How can we both better meet each other's needs?" FWIW this sounds to me like a completely normal relationship issue and not something that dooms you in any way; if you can work through this, and use it as an opportunity to come to a better understanding of each other, it will strengthen your relationship, and will serve you well down the road. If you can't, bear in mind that it will definitely come up again later.
posted by Owl of Athena at 9:41 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Why does it matter how L feels about this issue? F is your partner. You and L can agree about all kinds of things until the cows come home, but at the end of the day, F is the one you have to come to terms with.
Maybe check out Esther Perel's work on fidelity, desire, and long-term relationships. It might help to reframe this issue away from arguing over who is "right" or "wrong" about opposite-sex friendships and whether this friendship is out of bounds in some absolute, technical sense, and instead start talking with F from a place of, "How can we both better meet each other's needs?" FWIW this sounds to me like a completely normal relationship issue and not something that dooms you in any way; if you can work through this, and use it as an opportunity to come to a better understanding of each other, it will strengthen your relationship, and will serve you well down the road. If you can't, bear in mind that it will definitely come up again later.
posted by Owl of Athena at 9:41 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Metafilter has a really odd (to me) but consistent collective voice that says "if my SO communicates with/has dinner with/is friends with people of the opposite gender/sexual preference then that is not ok" and I think that is pretty sad and pretty nuttyFWIW, I would strongly disagree with that. From both the summary and the first few lines, I was fully prepared to say F needs to grow up. As I got further in, I became more convinced that the actual problem was with this specific friend and situation. Tellingly, there was no mention of a problem with this sort of jealousy in any other situation. I've not noticed a general pattern of endorsing some kind "no opposite sex friends" position and I certainly don't believe in it myself.
posted by Lame_username at 9:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [25 favorites]
Based on what you wrote here, I think you both have legit concerns.
Yes, you absolutely should be able to have friends of the opposite sex whom you can hang out with one-on-one without issues, but you also shouldn't be discussing your relationship with someone your fiancee has already let you know makes her feel uncomfortable in her interactions with you. That's what your friends are for--mutual friends should never be put in the middle of relationship issues.
FWIW, while I am not a jealous person myself (most of my exes have had very congenial relationships with their exes and I had no problem any of them them hanging out and doing things alone), I can see why your fiancee's spidey senses started tingling, especially if L & F weren't doing 1-on-1 hangouts concurrently.
She should NOT have been snooping on your phone--that's not at all okay--but it's also not okay that you've been dismissing her concerns, even if they're irrational. No one is 100% rational and part of being in a committed relationship is accepting foibles.
I think it's good you're in couples counseling and hope you both can figure out the best way to move forward.
posted by smirkette at 9:43 AM on January 13, 2016
Yes, you absolutely should be able to have friends of the opposite sex whom you can hang out with one-on-one without issues, but you also shouldn't be discussing your relationship with someone your fiancee has already let you know makes her feel uncomfortable in her interactions with you. That's what your friends are for--mutual friends should never be put in the middle of relationship issues.
FWIW, while I am not a jealous person myself (most of my exes have had very congenial relationships with their exes and I had no problem any of them them hanging out and doing things alone), I can see why your fiancee's spidey senses started tingling, especially if L & F weren't doing 1-on-1 hangouts concurrently.
She should NOT have been snooping on your phone--that's not at all okay--but it's also not okay that you've been dismissing her concerns, even if they're irrational. No one is 100% rational and part of being in a committed relationship is accepting foibles.
I think it's good you're in couples counseling and hope you both can figure out the best way to move forward.
posted by smirkette at 9:43 AM on January 13, 2016
I have lots of male friends, some of whom I even go on vacation with every year, without my boyfriend, and I find the asker's friendship with this woman a little suspicious. This isn't a "is it ok to have friends of the opposite sex" question.
posted by cakelite at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
posted by cakelite at 9:45 AM on January 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
"Our current strategy has been to end the friendship and not discuss L, but that feels kind of. Soviet?"
Dude, that is not a strategy. That is a band-aid.
L is not the issue.
L is a symptom, and the issues are not going anywhere.
L did not occur in a vacuum, or in the middle of a meadow of lovely relationship perfection. L is not a one-time anomaly. You are (I suspect), leaving out a lot of backstory, inner thoughts and other stuff.
You do not have "huge fights" and ongoing, escalated conflict over a one-time thing that can just be ignored (Sovietly or otherwise). That Ignored Thing will just fester and show up in all sorts of other nasty ways.
L was a catalyst. Figure out what she was a catalyst for.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
Dude, that is not a strategy. That is a band-aid.
L is not the issue.
L is a symptom, and the issues are not going anywhere.
L did not occur in a vacuum, or in the middle of a meadow of lovely relationship perfection. L is not a one-time anomaly. You are (I suspect), leaving out a lot of backstory, inner thoughts and other stuff.
You do not have "huge fights" and ongoing, escalated conflict over a one-time thing that can just be ignored (Sovietly or otherwise). That Ignored Thing will just fester and show up in all sorts of other nasty ways.
L was a catalyst. Figure out what she was a catalyst for.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 9:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
F feels threatened and you've chosen to defend yourself instead of reassuring her and reinforcing your attachment with her. What else is making F feel nervous about the attachment? L is a symptom. These things don't start in a vacuum. Read Hold Me Close for more on this.
Is L more "your type"? Do you have in-jokes with L that F can't share? Is F still your primary hang-out/text friend? Did she check your texts after you tried to hide that you were texting? Who feels like the side friend?
This doesn't need to be about "can we have opposite sex friends". This can be about "do we attend to the relationship when someone is feeling nervous".
posted by sadmadglad at 9:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is L more "your type"? Do you have in-jokes with L that F can't share? Is F still your primary hang-out/text friend? Did she check your texts after you tried to hide that you were texting? Who feels like the side friend?
This doesn't need to be about "can we have opposite sex friends". This can be about "do we attend to the relationship when someone is feeling nervous".
posted by sadmadglad at 9:52 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
She made a new friend, and then new friend starting hanging out with you more. It probably feels like her friend likes you more and you stole her friend. When you started talking about your fiancee to new friend? Also hurtful.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 9:58 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
L is hurt by this, feeling she didn't do anything wrong.
If L were a good friend to Team Us, L would be taking a step back and giving you guys room to work this out and not continuing to talk to you about your issues with your relationship once your fiancee made it clear she felt weird about the situation. I've been L (for certain types of L) and this is what I always did> "Oh man, sorry this got weird, it will get a lot less weird if I just slow fade so that is what I am going to do" Ls responses to this are as concerning as your own, to me.
posted by jessamyn at 10:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [27 favorites]
If L were a good friend to Team Us, L would be taking a step back and giving you guys room to work this out and not continuing to talk to you about your issues with your relationship once your fiancee made it clear she felt weird about the situation. I've been L (for certain types of L) and this is what I always did> "Oh man, sorry this got weird, it will get a lot less weird if I just slow fade so that is what I am going to do" Ls responses to this are as concerning as your own, to me.
posted by jessamyn at 10:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [27 favorites]
You might find this question and the array of responses illuminating.
Like others, I find your reiteration of how platonic the relationship is a little "doth protest too much," if you know what I mean. The drama seems a bit too elevated, even in your own telling, where presumably you want to come off innocent.
If I were you I'd be asking myself a lot of questions, rather than scrutinizing your fiancee. Are you sure you're not propping up an us-against-her dynamic? Are you certain you're not crossing boundaries but feel like you can get off on a technicality because you haven't slept with your friend? Are you maybe benefiting from the stereotype of the jealous, controlling woman as a way to dismiss your fiancee's concerns? On some level do you want to test (or tank) the relationship before marriage bonds you together legally?
Is your concern here truly that she is overall a jealous and controlling person? Or are you simply bristling at the reality of how taking your partner's feelings into consideration actually works?
posted by kapers at 10:11 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Like others, I find your reiteration of how platonic the relationship is a little "doth protest too much," if you know what I mean. The drama seems a bit too elevated, even in your own telling, where presumably you want to come off innocent.
If I were you I'd be asking myself a lot of questions, rather than scrutinizing your fiancee. Are you sure you're not propping up an us-against-her dynamic? Are you certain you're not crossing boundaries but feel like you can get off on a technicality because you haven't slept with your friend? Are you maybe benefiting from the stereotype of the jealous, controlling woman as a way to dismiss your fiancee's concerns? On some level do you want to test (or tank) the relationship before marriage bonds you together legally?
Is your concern here truly that she is overall a jealous and controlling person? Or are you simply bristling at the reality of how taking your partner's feelings into consideration actually works?
posted by kapers at 10:11 AM on January 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
This isn't a "can people have opposite sex friends?" question. I think what a lot of commenters are picking up on is a vibe between you and L. It sounds like you might feel a strong connection to L, one you seemingly can't admit to yourself, otherwise why defend it so strongly? These things can sneak up on you, at least the first time. The three of you being friends, then the two of you going off alone together, could imply there is a connection there that F can't / doesn't share in. (I'm very opposed to possessive relationships, but I can't imagine going off alone with my partner's friend in anything other than an atmosphere of extreme respect for the partner as though they were still with us or were about to rejoin us.) Caring what L thinks of F's concern gives her more say than she deserves and almost equates to ganging up on F... not a comfortable place to be for her, even if it was certain that nothing was going on beyond you and L just being new platonic besties.
posted by salvia at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by salvia at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
For all the folks who keep pouncing on the idea that F has never seemed jealous before, therefore there must really be something to be jealous about if she's freaking out: the OP stated that he only has "5-6" friends that he can hang out with. We don't know if any of those have ever been female.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:36 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mysterious_stranger at 10:36 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am totally fine with my husband having opposite-sex friends. It doesn't bother me at all if he hangs out with them or texts them. However, I would be really uncomfortable in your fiancee's position for several reasons:
- She was friends with L first
- You have taken over the friendship so that now she doesn't have any one-on-one time with L
- You are discussing relationship things about her with L, even though L knows F very well (they were friends first)
It sounds to me like you don't realize how emotionally intimate you have become with L - she seems to have supplanted F as your closest relationship.
posted by barnoley at 10:37 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
- She was friends with L first
- You have taken over the friendship so that now she doesn't have any one-on-one time with L
- You are discussing relationship things about her with L, even though L knows F very well (they were friends first)
It sounds to me like you don't realize how emotionally intimate you have become with L - she seems to have supplanted F as your closest relationship.
posted by barnoley at 10:37 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
But I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship and part of that trust is not policing your emotional/social landscape.
I missed this the first time around. Okay, I think this is really at the heart of your disagreement and is something you could definitely benefit by bringing up in therapy. Questions like, what is the nature of trust? Do you trust yourself 100%? (I don't trust myself 100%). Should any other person unconditionally trust you? What about in certain situations- should they trust you with some things but not others you have a proven track record of being bad at (trust you to cook, fix the car, etc.)? I think this ideal you have of "100% trust with no proof, forever, always, or they don't really love me" is totally unrealistic- to be blunt. I am not sure that unconditional love or trust should really exist in adult relationships at all, actually- I see it as appropriate to mother- young child or father- young child relationships, but that's really it. I see your requirement of "100% trust always" to be much more 'Soviet' than anything your fiancée has expressed, actually.
I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression.
So I may or may not totally agree with this- it's not my idea but my boyfriend's- but I think his way of looking at things may help you or make sense to you. He always says "to avoid cheating, you just avoid putting yourself in that situation. Stop yourself before you go in the room alone and drunk. Just say no earlier on. If more people did this, there would be a lot less mistakes made."
I think breaking it down like this may help you. Yes, ideally, people should have control over themselves and be able to shut it down at any time. (And obviously, morally and legally, people are presumed, correctly, to have this self-control.) But purely within yourself, as a matter of trusting yourself or making difficult choices easier for you, it makes sense to avoid tempting situations. Why put the cookie plate out when you're on a diet? Etc.
posted by quincunx at 11:00 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I missed this the first time around. Okay, I think this is really at the heart of your disagreement and is something you could definitely benefit by bringing up in therapy. Questions like, what is the nature of trust? Do you trust yourself 100%? (I don't trust myself 100%). Should any other person unconditionally trust you? What about in certain situations- should they trust you with some things but not others you have a proven track record of being bad at (trust you to cook, fix the car, etc.)? I think this ideal you have of "100% trust with no proof, forever, always, or they don't really love me" is totally unrealistic- to be blunt. I am not sure that unconditional love or trust should really exist in adult relationships at all, actually- I see it as appropriate to mother- young child or father- young child relationships, but that's really it. I see your requirement of "100% trust always" to be much more 'Soviet' than anything your fiancée has expressed, actually.
I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression.
So I may or may not totally agree with this- it's not my idea but my boyfriend's- but I think his way of looking at things may help you or make sense to you. He always says "to avoid cheating, you just avoid putting yourself in that situation. Stop yourself before you go in the room alone and drunk. Just say no earlier on. If more people did this, there would be a lot less mistakes made."
I think breaking it down like this may help you. Yes, ideally, people should have control over themselves and be able to shut it down at any time. (And obviously, morally and legally, people are presumed, correctly, to have this self-control.) But purely within yourself, as a matter of trusting yourself or making difficult choices easier for you, it makes sense to avoid tempting situations. Why put the cookie plate out when you're on a diet? Etc.
posted by quincunx at 11:00 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
To me, talking to a mutual friend about your relationship issues is a huge no-no. You say no transgression has occurred, but I think F feels like that was a pretty big one. Now her friendship with L is strained because F doesn't know what kind of "dirty laundry" L knows about you two, or how L feels about it. It would be different if you were talking to Your Own Pal, Joe, who doesn't really hang out with F. (Even then, though, I don't think it's nice to air anything really personal about F without asking her.)
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:45 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:45 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
But I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship and part of that trust is not policing your emotional/social landscape.
There is another even more fundamental axiom which must underly this: I will behave in a way that indicates I am worthy of your trust. I will behave in a way such that trusting me does not require you to foreclose on your desire for intimacy, or to second-guess your emotional reality.
I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression.
She's telling you there has been. Step one in addressing it is to listen closely with the basic assumption that her emotions are valid and she is feeling this way for a good reason. Set aside your own ego for a moment and ask her why this is hurting her and listen. You will feel your defences rising and the urgent need to justify your actions. It is critical that you set that aside. Resist the temptation to be defensive. If you need to, go for a walk and be angry at the sky and don't come back until you feel calm and ready to hear her, and repeat for as often as necessary.
These defences are there to prevent you from facing uncomfortable realities about yourself. I know all too well that I had lots of beliefs about myself (that I was a caring and supportive partner who always acted honourably) which turned out to fall short of reality. Hearing the ways I was failing my partner was HARD. It hurt like hell and threw me into a spin. But it was the only way forward. Growth is painful. You and your life partner need to be able to grow together. You need to be able to face the parts of yourself that don't see the light of day. You need to accept that you have to earn her trust through your actions -- that you are not entitled to it -- that love is a verb, and that you show it by setting aside your defences and axioms and acting in a way that cares for your partner and gives space for the validity of her experience.
I faced a variant of this issue, by the way. I was totally unwilling to acknowledge the ego boost that I got from friendly relations with pretty women, and how I very subtly turned towards such people and away from my partner at certain times, in a way that I was not conscious of but which she perceived all too strongly. Likewise how I responded when women flirted with me or otherwise tried to draw my attention. She claimed this is a thing some women do to score points over other women or to feel good about themselves. I thought she was crazy, but then I paid closer attention and I came to agree with her. Certain people will try to separate you from your partner. It's one of the ways cheating happens. Another way is that you do it yourself. And you don't need a 'transgression' (I presume you mean physical cheating) for there to be a real bona fide problem in the way you've chosen to prioritize these relationships. The test is: are you prepared to set your ego aside and admit that you might have drifted away from your partner and towards this person, and that you did not pay enough attention to notice the times when your partner became the third wheel? Will you admit to your role in creating doubt about the strength of your commitment to your partner's emotional well-being?
posted by PercussivePaul at 1:00 PM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
There is another even more fundamental axiom which must underly this: I will behave in a way that indicates I am worthy of your trust. I will behave in a way such that trusting me does not require you to foreclose on your desire for intimacy, or to second-guess your emotional reality.
I'm also not sure how to address F's concerns when there hasn't been a transgression.
She's telling you there has been. Step one in addressing it is to listen closely with the basic assumption that her emotions are valid and she is feeling this way for a good reason. Set aside your own ego for a moment and ask her why this is hurting her and listen. You will feel your defences rising and the urgent need to justify your actions. It is critical that you set that aside. Resist the temptation to be defensive. If you need to, go for a walk and be angry at the sky and don't come back until you feel calm and ready to hear her, and repeat for as often as necessary.
These defences are there to prevent you from facing uncomfortable realities about yourself. I know all too well that I had lots of beliefs about myself (that I was a caring and supportive partner who always acted honourably) which turned out to fall short of reality. Hearing the ways I was failing my partner was HARD. It hurt like hell and threw me into a spin. But it was the only way forward. Growth is painful. You and your life partner need to be able to grow together. You need to be able to face the parts of yourself that don't see the light of day. You need to accept that you have to earn her trust through your actions -- that you are not entitled to it -- that love is a verb, and that you show it by setting aside your defences and axioms and acting in a way that cares for your partner and gives space for the validity of her experience.
I faced a variant of this issue, by the way. I was totally unwilling to acknowledge the ego boost that I got from friendly relations with pretty women, and how I very subtly turned towards such people and away from my partner at certain times, in a way that I was not conscious of but which she perceived all too strongly. Likewise how I responded when women flirted with me or otherwise tried to draw my attention. She claimed this is a thing some women do to score points over other women or to feel good about themselves. I thought she was crazy, but then I paid closer attention and I came to agree with her. Certain people will try to separate you from your partner. It's one of the ways cheating happens. Another way is that you do it yourself. And you don't need a 'transgression' (I presume you mean physical cheating) for there to be a real bona fide problem in the way you've chosen to prioritize these relationships. The test is: are you prepared to set your ego aside and admit that you might have drifted away from your partner and towards this person, and that you did not pay enough attention to notice the times when your partner became the third wheel? Will you admit to your role in creating doubt about the strength of your commitment to your partner's emotional well-being?
posted by PercussivePaul at 1:00 PM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
You confiding in L about F is a red flag to me. Even if I take you at your word that this is just platonic, I tend to think that it's still really crappy to vent about an SO to a mutual friend, rather than to one of your own friends. I understand why, in the context of you having a harder time developing good friendships, this happened. Especially if you feel that if you had met L on you're own you'd still be really good friends without F. But that's not what happened.
What happened was you and L became friends because of F. You and L then formed a team without F, talked about F, and tried to manage F, all while dismissing F's concerns and telling her she shouldn't be uncomfortable. Maybe F is a bit too sensitive about you being friends with girls, and maybe that is what started this ball of drama rolling, but both you and L didn't do anything but keep pushing the drama ball along.
Maybe you feel mutual friends are an acceptable confidants about relationship matters. Maybe F feels there is no talking outside the relationship at all. There are some out there who would agree with either of you, and others who would say you're both wrong, it's somewhere in the middle.
Next step, on your own you need to figure out what your ideal boundaries are regarding friendships and your romantic relationships. Then think if here are any compromises that you feel are reasonable. F needs to do the same. Then see if you two can agree, or if you need to part ways.
In the future: If your SO is uncomfortable about your relationship with person A, don't talk to person A in depth about it. Don't use A as a confidant for other things. You can say something about needing to focus on your SO, most adults will get the message and understand what that means and let you get sorted out. Go right to figuring out how you and SO can get on the same page. Again, that same page may be you and SO breaking up, but you don't want other stuff muddying those waters.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
What happened was you and L became friends because of F. You and L then formed a team without F, talked about F, and tried to manage F, all while dismissing F's concerns and telling her she shouldn't be uncomfortable. Maybe F is a bit too sensitive about you being friends with girls, and maybe that is what started this ball of drama rolling, but both you and L didn't do anything but keep pushing the drama ball along.
Maybe you feel mutual friends are an acceptable confidants about relationship matters. Maybe F feels there is no talking outside the relationship at all. There are some out there who would agree with either of you, and others who would say you're both wrong, it's somewhere in the middle.
Next step, on your own you need to figure out what your ideal boundaries are regarding friendships and your romantic relationships. Then think if here are any compromises that you feel are reasonable. F needs to do the same. Then see if you two can agree, or if you need to part ways.
In the future: If your SO is uncomfortable about your relationship with person A, don't talk to person A in depth about it. Don't use A as a confidant for other things. You can say something about needing to focus on your SO, most adults will get the message and understand what that means and let you get sorted out. Go right to figuring out how you and SO can get on the same page. Again, that same page may be you and SO breaking up, but you don't want other stuff muddying those waters.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
But I'm also uncomfortable with that precedent because I think it violates a really basic relation axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our relationship and part of that trust is not policing your emotional/social landscape.
I feel for your fiancée, and I'm wondering if you really understand where this is going. In modern relationships, having the ability to empathize and be considerate of your partner is key. It's the main thing now. She doesn't need you for anything like social standing or economic security.
So If you hold onto this, don't mature a bit, it won't go well. and I think you possibly have a lot of fears about marriage and that you're not talking about or addressing those---you're using this situation and this axiom so you don't have to fully emotionally commit to her or be truly intimate.
You know, I'm sure there are lots of marital relationships that have differing dynamics and things smooth themselves out maybe over time, but if you were my fiancé, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable getting married to you knowing that you aren't really bonded in loyalty to me, that I am not a priority, that there's a part of you that would rather argue about axioms and be defensive about your friendship than about someone who is about to be your family.
Also, you're being so disrespectful to her, and so dismissive of her feelings.
Like I said though, lots of married people have different dynamics, and she might still love you and maybe she'd be able to forgive you---but it's hard to forget how someone made you feel, especially a romantic partner and doubly so someone you envision as your family.
You want to make her behavior the issue (is it to not feel guilty for talking badly about your fiancée to her friend? That whole "dude complains about his girlfriend/wife" thing is so shady.)
I think you should think long and hard about whether you really want to get married, if you're honestly contributing positively to your relationship with her or if you're testing her or passive aggressively informing her that you don't value her and she had better not have any expectations of you or tell you what to do. Because you're not being respectful of her feelings or very kind, and you may not get this, but you're already starting to cause her to distrust you and erode the security she felt. And over what? A bookstore buddy?
Basically, if you feel this strongly about your bookstore friend, and you'd rather worship some axiom than treat your future partner like someone who is worthy of consideration and respect and loyalty, then maybe you need to rethink getting married. Im kinda thinking that she is probably already having her doubts about you and wondering if she can face a lifetime of having you choose to fight and disconnect with her over another woman who is supposedly just a friend, rather than try to understand what she needs to feel like she can trust you and feel emotionally safe in your relationship. I'd advise her not to marry you, and I advise you to really think if you're suited for marriage and ready to be a real partner to her or anyone.
Otherwise---well, there's a reason more women file for divorce. Feeling lonely in a marriage because the partner doesn't think he has to care about her feelings or make her feel like she's loved or respected is a big part of why women eventually choose to leave and why men get so blindsided. They don't get that these things add up, and can destroy her respect and ability to feel goodwill and affection for you.
posted by discopolo at 1:29 PM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
I feel for your fiancée, and I'm wondering if you really understand where this is going. In modern relationships, having the ability to empathize and be considerate of your partner is key. It's the main thing now. She doesn't need you for anything like social standing or economic security.
So If you hold onto this, don't mature a bit, it won't go well. and I think you possibly have a lot of fears about marriage and that you're not talking about or addressing those---you're using this situation and this axiom so you don't have to fully emotionally commit to her or be truly intimate.
You know, I'm sure there are lots of marital relationships that have differing dynamics and things smooth themselves out maybe over time, but if you were my fiancé, I'm not sure I'd be comfortable getting married to you knowing that you aren't really bonded in loyalty to me, that I am not a priority, that there's a part of you that would rather argue about axioms and be defensive about your friendship than about someone who is about to be your family.
Also, you're being so disrespectful to her, and so dismissive of her feelings.
Like I said though, lots of married people have different dynamics, and she might still love you and maybe she'd be able to forgive you---but it's hard to forget how someone made you feel, especially a romantic partner and doubly so someone you envision as your family.
You want to make her behavior the issue (is it to not feel guilty for talking badly about your fiancée to her friend? That whole "dude complains about his girlfriend/wife" thing is so shady.)
I think you should think long and hard about whether you really want to get married, if you're honestly contributing positively to your relationship with her or if you're testing her or passive aggressively informing her that you don't value her and she had better not have any expectations of you or tell you what to do. Because you're not being respectful of her feelings or very kind, and you may not get this, but you're already starting to cause her to distrust you and erode the security she felt. And over what? A bookstore buddy?
Basically, if you feel this strongly about your bookstore friend, and you'd rather worship some axiom than treat your future partner like someone who is worthy of consideration and respect and loyalty, then maybe you need to rethink getting married. Im kinda thinking that she is probably already having her doubts about you and wondering if she can face a lifetime of having you choose to fight and disconnect with her over another woman who is supposedly just a friend, rather than try to understand what she needs to feel like she can trust you and feel emotionally safe in your relationship. I'd advise her not to marry you, and I advise you to really think if you're suited for marriage and ready to be a real partner to her or anyone.
Otherwise---well, there's a reason more women file for divorce. Feeling lonely in a marriage because the partner doesn't think he has to care about her feelings or make her feel like she's loved or respected is a big part of why women eventually choose to leave and why men get so blindsided. They don't get that these things add up, and can destroy her respect and ability to feel goodwill and affection for you.
posted by discopolo at 1:29 PM on January 13, 2016 [31 favorites]
One thing I definitely did not want to do was to have some kind of secret friendship with L. I don't really keep secrets
But you DID have a secret friendship with L. You texted L about your relationship with F behind F's back. And L is not an impartial party. L is the reason you and F are fighting. It would be one thing if it was your beer buddy Joe who you texted about the F and L issue. But it's not. You got all sneaky and protective of L's feelings and bashing F by talking about your fight. That's not cool.
I'm a kinda jealous type. Mostly because of my past relationships. I also don't think this is an issue of "no female friends." This is an issue of loyalties. I think the same thing could have happened if L was male and the situation played out exactly the same.
You all are kinda in the wrong, but I think you and L are in the most wrong. Here's my bare bones read:
You: Stole F's friend. Started doing things with L you may normally do with F (or not do with F at all?) Started taking L's side. Started texting L about F's downfalls. Started ignoring F's feelings. Not communicating clearly with F on her feelings. Haven't come clean to yourself and F about your feelings and loyalties toward L.
L: Not being loyal to F as her friend. Accepted becoming your friend rather than F's friend (I would feel weird about suddenly hanging out with my friend's husband all the time instead of my friend.) Was participating in discussions about F's relationship where she is a central part of the disagreement. Didn't go to F to sort things out but went through you instead.
F: Didn't communicate her feelings well. Is acting jealous but may not even know her own feelings. Is trying to soothe the jealousy by limiting your friendship instead of saying what she really means which is probably that she finds the whole thing weird and hurtful and that you stole her friend. Is not communicating that she probably fears that you like L more and is threatened. Snooped in your phone.
Really though, I would probably react like F. As others noted, it's not just physical loyalty, it's emotional loyalty that you owe to your SO. It doesn't sound like Team U and F. It sounds like team U and L against F. You should always have your partner's back, and if you disagree you discuss it together as a team.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:39 PM on January 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
But you DID have a secret friendship with L. You texted L about your relationship with F behind F's back. And L is not an impartial party. L is the reason you and F are fighting. It would be one thing if it was your beer buddy Joe who you texted about the F and L issue. But it's not. You got all sneaky and protective of L's feelings and bashing F by talking about your fight. That's not cool.
I'm a kinda jealous type. Mostly because of my past relationships. I also don't think this is an issue of "no female friends." This is an issue of loyalties. I think the same thing could have happened if L was male and the situation played out exactly the same.
You all are kinda in the wrong, but I think you and L are in the most wrong. Here's my bare bones read:
You: Stole F's friend. Started doing things with L you may normally do with F (or not do with F at all?) Started taking L's side. Started texting L about F's downfalls. Started ignoring F's feelings. Not communicating clearly with F on her feelings. Haven't come clean to yourself and F about your feelings and loyalties toward L.
L: Not being loyal to F as her friend. Accepted becoming your friend rather than F's friend (I would feel weird about suddenly hanging out with my friend's husband all the time instead of my friend.) Was participating in discussions about F's relationship where she is a central part of the disagreement. Didn't go to F to sort things out but went through you instead.
F: Didn't communicate her feelings well. Is acting jealous but may not even know her own feelings. Is trying to soothe the jealousy by limiting your friendship instead of saying what she really means which is probably that she finds the whole thing weird and hurtful and that you stole her friend. Is not communicating that she probably fears that you like L more and is threatened. Snooped in your phone.
Really though, I would probably react like F. As others noted, it's not just physical loyalty, it's emotional loyalty that you owe to your SO. It doesn't sound like Team U and F. It sounds like team U and L against F. You should always have your partner's back, and if you disagree you discuss it together as a team.
posted by Crystalinne at 1:39 PM on January 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
Metafilter has a really odd (to me) but consistent collective voice that says "if my SO communicates with/has dinner with/is friends with people of the opposite gender/sexual preference then that is not ok" and I think that is pretty sad and pretty nutty. (seriously, there are grown-ass adults on here stating that their SO cannot see a movie with a mutual friend of the opposite gender!)
Hey, i agree with you. And i've made posts in asks saying exactly this before! Like completely, exactly this!
...This is not one of those cases.
Crystalline said most of what i was going to say, and i'm unlike some here, not someone who thinks it's wrong to discuss your relationship with your friends!
What you did wrong here was discuss your issue with how F was reacting/upset with the person she was upset about. Other people have covered this, but talking about that with your college best friend over a drink is NOT the same as talking to L about it. Don't conflate the two in your head.
I concur that no one acted super awesome here, but PLEASE don't walk away from this(and by "this" i mean all of it, including your relationship with F if/when that happens) thinking F was just being irrational and L was a shitty friend but you didn't do anything that bad. L was a shitty friend to F, but you were a shitty partner to F and pretty much stoked the drama fires almost solo on this one.
An actual adult, and i'm not claiming i'm perfect at this but keep your eyes open and pay attention, would have sat down and had a real discussion with F right when this first barely started to become a thing along the lines of "hey, what's up? i feel like you might be kinda uncomfortable with me and L's friendship". Not some verbal diarrhea about how you're just friends, not monologuing at her, just "hey, how do you feel about this?".
You're DEEP in this well with a pretty mangy rope now, though. I'd say some thing about how you need to cut off L and have a come to jesus with F, but even if L disappeared in to thin air tomorrow things would not be ok.
I'm nthing the comments above that you need to really have a deep think about whether you're ready to get married, because you're not being an awesome partner here. Like, this is couples therapy territory.
posted by emptythought at 2:04 PM on January 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
Hey, i agree with you. And i've made posts in asks saying exactly this before! Like completely, exactly this!
...This is not one of those cases.
Crystalline said most of what i was going to say, and i'm unlike some here, not someone who thinks it's wrong to discuss your relationship with your friends!
What you did wrong here was discuss your issue with how F was reacting/upset with the person she was upset about. Other people have covered this, but talking about that with your college best friend over a drink is NOT the same as talking to L about it. Don't conflate the two in your head.
I concur that no one acted super awesome here, but PLEASE don't walk away from this(and by "this" i mean all of it, including your relationship with F if/when that happens) thinking F was just being irrational and L was a shitty friend but you didn't do anything that bad. L was a shitty friend to F, but you were a shitty partner to F and pretty much stoked the drama fires almost solo on this one.
An actual adult, and i'm not claiming i'm perfect at this but keep your eyes open and pay attention, would have sat down and had a real discussion with F right when this first barely started to become a thing along the lines of "hey, what's up? i feel like you might be kinda uncomfortable with me and L's friendship". Not some verbal diarrhea about how you're just friends, not monologuing at her, just "hey, how do you feel about this?".
You're DEEP in this well with a pretty mangy rope now, though. I'd say some thing about how you need to cut off L and have a come to jesus with F, but even if L disappeared in to thin air tomorrow things would not be ok.
I'm nthing the comments above that you need to really have a deep think about whether you're ready to get married, because you're not being an awesome partner here. Like, this is couples therapy territory.
posted by emptythought at 2:04 PM on January 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
If F didn't exist and you were single, would you be pursing L in a romantic sense?
posted by crankylex at 2:39 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by crankylex at 2:39 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
F, for her part, feels like we're being hurtful and inconsiderate and, most importantly, just not listening to her concerns. I don't think this is untrue, but I also don't know how to address them when the solution feels like: Don't have this friendship outside of my purview.
It sounds like that is the solution because you're sort of... sneaking around behind F's back and complaining about her to L. Meanwhile, F was still considering L a friend herself.
This isn't a "no female friends" thing, or at least it doesn't sound like it. Nor is it a "I don't trust you for no reason whatsover" thing. This is you betraying F's trust by continually undermining both her relationship with L and F's own relationship with you.
You know the solution, you just don't want to out of some general principle. This isn't a hypothetical; you've actually hurt F with your actions, with how you've approached your friendship with L which you've basically prioritized over F.
Either drop L, drop F, or both.
posted by RainyJay at 3:45 PM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
It sounds like that is the solution because you're sort of... sneaking around behind F's back and complaining about her to L. Meanwhile, F was still considering L a friend herself.
This isn't a "no female friends" thing, or at least it doesn't sound like it. Nor is it a "I don't trust you for no reason whatsover" thing. This is you betraying F's trust by continually undermining both her relationship with L and F's own relationship with you.
You know the solution, you just don't want to out of some general principle. This isn't a hypothetical; you've actually hurt F with your actions, with how you've approached your friendship with L which you've basically prioritized over F.
Either drop L, drop F, or both.
posted by RainyJay at 3:45 PM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Either drop L, drop F, or both.
Yeah. Quick check: as you read through these replies, who and what do you want to protect? Who do you want to spend time with? Who would cause you more pain if they left? If it's not F, cut her loose.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:59 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah. Quick check: as you read through these replies, who and what do you want to protect? Who do you want to spend time with? Who would cause you more pain if they left? If it's not F, cut her loose.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:59 PM on January 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Just a data point: I would never ever hang out with my husband's friends without him being present. It just feels inappropriate to me. Nor would my husband hang out with my friends. It just isn't done (by us. and we are both lefty liberals).
posted by hollyanderbody at 5:30 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by hollyanderbody at 5:30 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
You seem very keen to defend your interactions with L and very keen to dismiss any of F's legitimate concerns at the way she's been treated - even at the detriment of your relationship. You're prioritising another woman over your fiancée. Repeatedly. And trying to gaslight her into thinking you're not going behind her back when you actually have been communicating secretly with this woman, about your fiancée, no less. Why is that? I think she's right not to trust you, you're not acting trustworthy.
posted by Jubey at 5:43 PM on January 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by Jubey at 5:43 PM on January 13, 2016 [19 favorites]
What's appropriate and disrespectful in a relationship isn't objective. It's subjective. And this is a very common feeling. Even if this relationship doesn't work out I hope you learn from this and the next time someone tells you that your actions are bothering them you listen and consider just doing what makes them happy and comfortable rather than lecturing them about your Civil Rights or whatever. I mean there are controlling requests that are deal breakers, but this really shouldn't be one. It's not like some childhood friend, just a rando you met recently. If this level of sacrifice seems Just So Untenable to you, what would your commitment level be when you have to bail her out of jail, or change her diaper, or fight off an angry horse? This is what it is, loves not all cutesy blanket forts, marriage is one long battle for survival against time and horse gangs and if you're getting spooked by a little jealousy you're not going to be able to handle them hoofs, kid.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
Here's one perspective from a generally really non-jealous person: if I were F, I'd be calling off the wedding now.
In 25 years, I've had The Talk like this with my husband only once, and it wasn't about my suspicions of his intentions as much as the friend's (which later events proved completely well-founded). I said, "we need to discuss this, because it is a problem for me. I need you to listen and I need you to trust that my observations and logic are sound even if you don't see the same things I see," and explained why, and outlined what would be okay, and not okay, from my perspective. He agreed, wasn't resentful, and did as I asked. If he had come up with some sort of letter-of-the-law thing wherein he did not violate the precise things that I asked him not to do, but actually in fact ramped up the intimacy level with the friend (and betrayal level to me) by having secret conversations talking about his problems with me, well, that would have ended things for me... but if it didn't for some reason, I doubt I could ever really recover my full trust and belief in him, and we would not have had the same relationship we do have.
Yet my husband has many women friends he meets with one-on-one or in groups for coffee or drinks, visits their homes, goes to social functions with. He has women friends he sometimes stays with when he goes out of town. He has women friends of all sorts, including, because of his job, quite a few particularly beautiful and charismatic ones whom he works closely with in situations and settings (often away from home) that tend to create very fairly intense bonding feelings among the group and often lead to romantic liaisons. He himself is handsome, kind, fun, popular, and just generally attractive to people ... so if I were inclined to be jealous or suspicious, I'd probably be a quivering, gibbering human aspic of insecurity and drool by now. But not only am I not worried and do trust him, I trust him in a way that I don't even think of as concerns about infidelity, etc.; I just know that he. would. not. hurt. me. ever.
And that is the basic relationship axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor ourrelationship love, because of all your actions in word and deed for all the time we've been together. If he had wanted to do cozy, "couple-y" things with a specific new woman, and been confused and angry that it bothered me, and then grudgingly, resentfully stopped that, but continued the relationship with intimate correspondence that included complaining about me, I'd know for sure that I couldn't trust him not to hurt me, whether or not he technically put the p in the v or anything close.
So, that's just my perspective as someone who isn't jealous, but who also has some pretty absolute expectations that I won't have a reason to be jealous. Or disrespected. Or dismissed or viewed as an obstacle to my husband's happy, pleasurable life. Quite the opposite. You and F must work out your own parameters on what "trust" means between you, but I'm weighing in because I feel like jealousy in this instance is not such a completely simple matter as "we're all adults and deserving of trust." What trust, specifically? I trust that my husband believes (again, because of demonstration over time) that I am loving, fair, kind, liberal, tolerant, perceptive, smart and reasonable, and that if I tell him we have a problem that potentially threatens our mutually precious bond, I trust that he will listen with both mind and heart, and will resolve the issue in a way that eases my concerns. So, by my personal standards, you would have broken the trust – which is not as simple as "thou shalt not do the sexy sex with another person*."
It seems to me that F has tried to be pretty proactive in attempting to define the sort of boundaries that she would like to see... under rather difficult circumstances, because obviously she doesn't want to say, "you're not allowed to go to a bookstore with another woman!" So, she's trying to articulate how it feels like this particular relationship is hurting her, but your response is just "you should trust me!" or even just "I, an adult, should be trusted!" Maybe you need to match her effort, and be specific about what that means to you, even if it's hard. She's already figured out that it doesn't mean you won't talk about her behind her back to the very person who she's said represents a threat and whom she's asked you to scale things way back with, so what is "trust" as you are using it? If it just means that you'll keep the mouse in the house, but you make no other promises, be clear.
* it happens that in our case, traditional monogamy was a thing we both specified we cared about and agreed on when we went into serious relationship mode, and remains a part of our understanding, but the emotional trust bond is by far most important to me.
posted by taz at 4:42 AM on January 14, 2016 [31 favorites]
In 25 years, I've had The Talk like this with my husband only once, and it wasn't about my suspicions of his intentions as much as the friend's (which later events proved completely well-founded). I said, "we need to discuss this, because it is a problem for me. I need you to listen and I need you to trust that my observations and logic are sound even if you don't see the same things I see," and explained why, and outlined what would be okay, and not okay, from my perspective. He agreed, wasn't resentful, and did as I asked. If he had come up with some sort of letter-of-the-law thing wherein he did not violate the precise things that I asked him not to do, but actually in fact ramped up the intimacy level with the friend (and betrayal level to me) by having secret conversations talking about his problems with me, well, that would have ended things for me... but if it didn't for some reason, I doubt I could ever really recover my full trust and belief in him, and we would not have had the same relationship we do have.
Yet my husband has many women friends he meets with one-on-one or in groups for coffee or drinks, visits their homes, goes to social functions with. He has women friends he sometimes stays with when he goes out of town. He has women friends of all sorts, including, because of his job, quite a few particularly beautiful and charismatic ones whom he works closely with in situations and settings (often away from home) that tend to create very fairly intense bonding feelings among the group and often lead to romantic liaisons. He himself is handsome, kind, fun, popular, and just generally attractive to people ... so if I were inclined to be jealous or suspicious, I'd probably be a quivering, gibbering human aspic of insecurity and drool by now. But not only am I not worried and do trust him, I trust him in a way that I don't even think of as concerns about infidelity, etc.; I just know that he. would. not. hurt. me. ever.
And that is the basic relationship axiom for me: I trust you and I trust that you will make decisions that respect and honor our
So, that's just my perspective as someone who isn't jealous, but who also has some pretty absolute expectations that I won't have a reason to be jealous. Or disrespected. Or dismissed or viewed as an obstacle to my husband's happy, pleasurable life. Quite the opposite. You and F must work out your own parameters on what "trust" means between you, but I'm weighing in because I feel like jealousy in this instance is not such a completely simple matter as "we're all adults and deserving of trust." What trust, specifically? I trust that my husband believes (again, because of demonstration over time) that I am loving, fair, kind, liberal, tolerant, perceptive, smart and reasonable, and that if I tell him we have a problem that potentially threatens our mutually precious bond, I trust that he will listen with both mind and heart, and will resolve the issue in a way that eases my concerns. So, by my personal standards, you would have broken the trust – which is not as simple as "thou shalt not do the sexy sex with another person*."
It seems to me that F has tried to be pretty proactive in attempting to define the sort of boundaries that she would like to see... under rather difficult circumstances, because obviously she doesn't want to say, "you're not allowed to go to a bookstore with another woman!" So, she's trying to articulate how it feels like this particular relationship is hurting her, but your response is just "you should trust me!" or even just "I, an adult, should be trusted!" Maybe you need to match her effort, and be specific about what that means to you, even if it's hard. She's already figured out that it doesn't mean you won't talk about her behind her back to the very person who she's said represents a threat and whom she's asked you to scale things way back with, so what is "trust" as you are using it? If it just means that you'll keep the mouse in the house, but you make no other promises, be clear.
* it happens that in our case, traditional monogamy was a thing we both specified we cared about and agreed on when we went into serious relationship mode, and remains a part of our understanding, but the emotional trust bond is by far most important to me.
posted by taz at 4:42 AM on January 14, 2016 [31 favorites]
I think you can take all the hostility towards the idea of people in relationships having friends of the opposite gender and find it instructive in a way. I was startled at the response another thread along the same lines got here, and it shows that despite the liberal bent of the MeFi community, that this is an area that still needs some work in our society. It's not something that's been discussed a lot, clearly.
What I'm saying is that because you're comfortable with mixed gender friendships, and L is comfortable with it, doesn't mean F is. You just may be different in that way. You need to delineate those differences through frank discussion and figure out what each of you think is appropriate. And I think your beliefs on this matter are just as important as hers are. Then you need to figure out if your respective tolerances overlap enough to work in the long term.
This to me seems to be the ultimate takeaway, regardless of who did wrong here.
posted by picea at 6:30 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
What I'm saying is that because you're comfortable with mixed gender friendships, and L is comfortable with it, doesn't mean F is. You just may be different in that way. You need to delineate those differences through frank discussion and figure out what each of you think is appropriate. And I think your beliefs on this matter are just as important as hers are. Then you need to figure out if your respective tolerances overlap enough to work in the long term.
This to me seems to be the ultimate takeaway, regardless of who did wrong here.
posted by picea at 6:30 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have no idea who is right or wrong in this situation but I think you should consider that maybe saying 'I don't like you texting L because men and women can't be such close, platonic friends' might, to her, be a more socially acceptable way of saying 'Dude - you completely stole my new friend. Get your own f~king friends'.
Maybe.
It seems like you're honeymooning her new friend without her even having the chance to do that herself. You say you don't have hang-out friends but of those you do have, are any of them female and is she ok with them?
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 7:19 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe.
It seems like you're honeymooning her new friend without her even having the chance to do that herself. You say you don't have hang-out friends but of those you do have, are any of them female and is she ok with them?
posted by ihaveyourfoot at 7:19 AM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't understand all of the responses here saying that this is simply an issue of whether you can hang out with any other women ever at all. I don't see evidence in your question that this is an overall jealousy issue. I see a lot of evidence that F thinks you are too intimate with L, and a lot of evidence (even in your telling) that she is right.
As usual, Johnny Cash said it best. Walk the Line is about being true to yourself so that you are true to your partner. You don't seem to want to do that.
I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the time
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Because you're mine, I walk the line
I find it very, very easy to be true
I find myself alone when each day is through
Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for you
Because you're mine, I walk the line
As sure as night is dark and day is light
I keep you on my mind both day and night
And happiness I've known proves that it's right
Because you're mine, I walk the line
posted by OmieWise at 10:08 AM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
As usual, Johnny Cash said it best. Walk the Line is about being true to yourself so that you are true to your partner. You don't seem to want to do that.
I keep a close watch on this heart of mine
I keep my eyes wide open all the time
I keep the ends out for the tie that binds
Because you're mine, I walk the line
I find it very, very easy to be true
I find myself alone when each day is through
Yes, I'll admit that I'm a fool for you
Because you're mine, I walk the line
As sure as night is dark and day is light
I keep you on my mind both day and night
And happiness I've known proves that it's right
Because you're mine, I walk the line
posted by OmieWise at 10:08 AM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
I remember when my husband became buddies with a woman at his job. And they started seeing a fair amount of each other. And we were the type of couple who went on separate vacations on occasion and had no problems with each other having friendships with folks of the opposite gender. And I was never, ever jealous-- except this one time. Eventually hubby and the gal went out to movie and he got home later than expected. And I was a mess. I explained that I had been worried that this woman was after my man. Hubby was genuinely baffled and explained that nothing untoward had happened, and I believed him.
Fast forward three or four weeks later, when hubby comes home all aghast. He had had lunch with this other woman, who had confessed her undying love for him. Supposedly her therapist had insisted that she tell all. I was in no way surprised, but my husband was genuinely shocked. He had no idea this gal was pining for him, while I could tell without ever having met her.
Dude, listen to F. This is not about your inability to have female friends. This is about L. Or, as I once told my husband, years later, "If I tell you there's a dragon on the balcony and I'm terrified, you need to take me seriously and my fears seriously even if you can't see a damn thing yourself." A couples therapist told him the same thing. He was unable to do that, and eventually we parted.
This is not about agreeing with your fiancé; this is about empathy and understanding. If you cannot muster any inkling of her perspective, kindly hie thee out the door. Because this will happen again. Not exactly this situation but a situation in which your fiancé is upset and you don't get it so you don't think you have any obligation to be supportive or responsive. By the way, you are not responsible for her feelings, but you are responsible for taking her feelings seriously. That's an important distinction. Nobody wants to be held hostage to a partner's feelings, particularly if they seem irrational or unreasonable. At the same time, it's important to learn how to validate and recognize those feelings, even if you don't agree with the perspective that sparked those feelings. Ping me if that's confusing and I'll rustle up some links about validation. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 11:21 AM on January 14, 2016 [20 favorites]
Fast forward three or four weeks later, when hubby comes home all aghast. He had had lunch with this other woman, who had confessed her undying love for him. Supposedly her therapist had insisted that she tell all. I was in no way surprised, but my husband was genuinely shocked. He had no idea this gal was pining for him, while I could tell without ever having met her.
Dude, listen to F. This is not about your inability to have female friends. This is about L. Or, as I once told my husband, years later, "If I tell you there's a dragon on the balcony and I'm terrified, you need to take me seriously and my fears seriously even if you can't see a damn thing yourself." A couples therapist told him the same thing. He was unable to do that, and eventually we parted.
This is not about agreeing with your fiancé; this is about empathy and understanding. If you cannot muster any inkling of her perspective, kindly hie thee out the door. Because this will happen again. Not exactly this situation but a situation in which your fiancé is upset and you don't get it so you don't think you have any obligation to be supportive or responsive. By the way, you are not responsible for her feelings, but you are responsible for taking her feelings seriously. That's an important distinction. Nobody wants to be held hostage to a partner's feelings, particularly if they seem irrational or unreasonable. At the same time, it's important to learn how to validate and recognize those feelings, even if you don't agree with the perspective that sparked those feelings. Ping me if that's confusing and I'll rustle up some links about validation. Good luck!
posted by Bella Donna at 11:21 AM on January 14, 2016 [20 favorites]
You might not see it this way but you are actually being unkind to your fiancee. It is not nice to talk about your relationship to another person, and keep getting closer to that person (L) when F has said she is not comfortable with it. Do you see that you have made F the third person here? If I was your fiancee, I would feel like I am intruding on your "friendship" when really she should not be feeling that way at all. Please be more empathetic and think critically about your friendship. You probably don't want to acknowledge this but some friendships and people are harmful to a relationship. As part of any couple, especially a married couple, consider which friends add and build something positive in your relationship. This person is not helpful to your relationship.
posted by ichomp at 3:43 PM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ichomp at 3:43 PM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
As soon as someone else rises to the forefront of your mind and heart with any degree of regularity, supplanting the person who is "supposed" to be there (as defined by of the relationship you have agreed to enter into)... red effing flag.
That happens when your needs are not being met. Whatever L provides, F apparently cannot. Or perhaps L compensates for other conflicts (spoken/unspoken) you have going on with F.
The effort and energy you direct toward L "should" be directed toward F; instead, you are shifting away from F and toward L. You must distinguish if you are moving toward something or moving away from something.
I stand firm in my perception that the surface-level issue of "can we have opposite-sex friends" is so far off from the truth here. That is not the question.
You want it all. You want L and you want F, and you want them to understand why you do, and expect unprecedented settling on both sides. You feel justified in this. You are looking for ways to get buy-in from the internet, so that you can rationalize this position.
The question is, what is wrong with your relationship with F that you even feel pulled toward any significant level of investment in L?
The catalyst came when the catalyst was required. You were already there, in a place of uncertainty, or L would not have called to any part of you. F would have been filling those spaces, providing the connection, all of it, already. The catalyst would not have sparked anything.
Has F changed? Have you changed? Are the reasons you and F are together no longer valid?
Step back and assess your relationship with F and assess yourself. Apply a heaping helping of cold, hard honesty to both. Is F your "forever partner," worth every effort to preserve, or is the relationship no longer serving you?
again- every relationship of significance is a give and take. Compromise is the key. But there are always deal-breakers. And people change. People lie. People hide the truth out of fear. People look for things they are afraid to admit their partner cannot provide.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:47 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
That happens when your needs are not being met. Whatever L provides, F apparently cannot. Or perhaps L compensates for other conflicts (spoken/unspoken) you have going on with F.
The effort and energy you direct toward L "should" be directed toward F; instead, you are shifting away from F and toward L. You must distinguish if you are moving toward something or moving away from something.
I stand firm in my perception that the surface-level issue of "can we have opposite-sex friends" is so far off from the truth here. That is not the question.
You want it all. You want L and you want F, and you want them to understand why you do, and expect unprecedented settling on both sides. You feel justified in this. You are looking for ways to get buy-in from the internet, so that you can rationalize this position.
The question is, what is wrong with your relationship with F that you even feel pulled toward any significant level of investment in L?
The catalyst came when the catalyst was required. You were already there, in a place of uncertainty, or L would not have called to any part of you. F would have been filling those spaces, providing the connection, all of it, already. The catalyst would not have sparked anything.
Has F changed? Have you changed? Are the reasons you and F are together no longer valid?
Step back and assess your relationship with F and assess yourself. Apply a heaping helping of cold, hard honesty to both. Is F your "forever partner," worth every effort to preserve, or is the relationship no longer serving you?
again- every relationship of significance is a give and take. Compromise is the key. But there are always deal-breakers. And people change. People lie. People hide the truth out of fear. People look for things they are afraid to admit their partner cannot provide.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 2:47 AM on January 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by headnsouth at 6:23 AM on January 13, 2016 [34 favorites]