I was bullied at the gym I go to. Best approaches and solutions?
January 9, 2016 3:46 PM Subscribe
I got in an argument that resulted in the other person expressing physical threats and intimidation. I feel unsafe; however, I feel okay towards resolving this issue seriously and systematically. But this is an unknown area for me. If there are best practices that I should consider, that would be incredibly useful.
Incident details: A young adult got angry and explicitly threatened to break my jaw. He physically charged at me and was only prevented by some people who moved to block him. He uttered his threats by coming up extremely close, breathing down my face and puffing himself up. He eventually used a homophobic slur, so perhaps his violence and intimidation was in part motivated by this.
Context: I am turned around while resting, and then suddenly see/hear somebody's bag dropped directly in front of my barbell equipment still being used. I touch the bag, lifting it and dropping it on the floor in the direction of the group of young adults busy socializing. One of them comes towards me, and begins a macho, unapologetic shtick, "Next time you touch my bag, you should ask me. It's disrespectful". I'm feeling too old/tired for that bullshit, and reply, "I don't need to "ask" to move your things, if you couldn't "respect" that other people are still using the gym equipment in the first place". I believe that my abstract and irritated replies were received as a passive aggressive message, because it quickly resulted in the subsequent responses above.
He would not let up, so I gathered my things at the first opportunity and went to a gym attendant (none were present during). They document my account, and eventually the gym manager asks two key questions, a) if I want to press charges, as well as b) what I would like to see happen.
Myself: I am male, but no one has ever threatened me to this degree, and I had my guard down in the moment. I'm also an academic type and I clearly don't have the relevant social skills (yes, I've just googled "assertiveness training" today)—and enough experience yet to recognize such dangerous interactions and calibrate my responses—to equip myself for awkward situations, and in this case, the aftermath. It's starting to dawn on me that since I did not grow up with straight guys in my own youth, I am not accustomed to directly dealing with their forms of aggression. Part of me feels pain that it's on me to make serious changes, taking time away from my work and research. That's a framing that I should, alas, work away from.
Possible Options: I could cancel my membership. I could ask to meet the individual to work together to establish rapport. And I could involve the police / public safety - no idea what they would do though. If the individual is with a school or university, that may come in as an important support. Or their family? Partly my problem is not feeling confident about the very institutions that I'd be asking to for help with.
The staff is involved, and were generally supportive, by informing me that such behavior is not tolerated; they also said that altercations happen most often on their basketball courts, and because testosterone, because anger clouds your/their thinking, etc. They had him leave the premises and gave this person a 1-time warning. I should talk to the staff again, to ask further questions, and to present a clearer answer to their questions.
They did not tell or remind me that threat of physical harm is a criminal offense. So, I really am ignorant and inexperienced about this stuff. Perhaps they assumed I understood my rights. They did reinforce that I can press charges later, if I wish.
My primary problem to solve now is my sense of safety. After sleeping, it's clearer to me that I'm a compromised individual due to the above reasons, and thus it's better if I rally and utilize multiple levels of community support around this. But I lack actual experience in these dealings, so my pressing questions are, 1) are there aspects / blind spots I need to be considering, and 2) what are the best practices moving forward? What is effective? I seem to have my work cut out for me!
P.S. Is assertiveness still the only method that is taught, or are there alternatives that I should also be looking at? Should I do self-help or professional training? E.g., I don't feel ready to think about taking self-defense classes yet—I'm certainly not interested in martial arts—but maybe that's a sign that it might be prudent to do so.
Incident details: A young adult got angry and explicitly threatened to break my jaw. He physically charged at me and was only prevented by some people who moved to block him. He uttered his threats by coming up extremely close, breathing down my face and puffing himself up. He eventually used a homophobic slur, so perhaps his violence and intimidation was in part motivated by this.
Context: I am turned around while resting, and then suddenly see/hear somebody's bag dropped directly in front of my barbell equipment still being used. I touch the bag, lifting it and dropping it on the floor in the direction of the group of young adults busy socializing. One of them comes towards me, and begins a macho, unapologetic shtick, "Next time you touch my bag, you should ask me. It's disrespectful". I'm feeling too old/tired for that bullshit, and reply, "I don't need to "ask" to move your things, if you couldn't "respect" that other people are still using the gym equipment in the first place". I believe that my abstract and irritated replies were received as a passive aggressive message, because it quickly resulted in the subsequent responses above.
He would not let up, so I gathered my things at the first opportunity and went to a gym attendant (none were present during). They document my account, and eventually the gym manager asks two key questions, a) if I want to press charges, as well as b) what I would like to see happen.
Myself: I am male, but no one has ever threatened me to this degree, and I had my guard down in the moment. I'm also an academic type and I clearly don't have the relevant social skills (yes, I've just googled "assertiveness training" today)—and enough experience yet to recognize such dangerous interactions and calibrate my responses—to equip myself for awkward situations, and in this case, the aftermath. It's starting to dawn on me that since I did not grow up with straight guys in my own youth, I am not accustomed to directly dealing with their forms of aggression. Part of me feels pain that it's on me to make serious changes, taking time away from my work and research. That's a framing that I should, alas, work away from.
Possible Options: I could cancel my membership. I could ask to meet the individual to work together to establish rapport. And I could involve the police / public safety - no idea what they would do though. If the individual is with a school or university, that may come in as an important support. Or their family? Partly my problem is not feeling confident about the very institutions that I'd be asking to for help with.
The staff is involved, and were generally supportive, by informing me that such behavior is not tolerated; they also said that altercations happen most often on their basketball courts, and because testosterone, because anger clouds your/their thinking, etc. They had him leave the premises and gave this person a 1-time warning. I should talk to the staff again, to ask further questions, and to present a clearer answer to their questions.
They did not tell or remind me that threat of physical harm is a criminal offense. So, I really am ignorant and inexperienced about this stuff. Perhaps they assumed I understood my rights. They did reinforce that I can press charges later, if I wish.
My primary problem to solve now is my sense of safety. After sleeping, it's clearer to me that I'm a compromised individual due to the above reasons, and thus it's better if I rally and utilize multiple levels of community support around this. But I lack actual experience in these dealings, so my pressing questions are, 1) are there aspects / blind spots I need to be considering, and 2) what are the best practices moving forward? What is effective? I seem to have my work cut out for me!
P.S. Is assertiveness still the only method that is taught, or are there alternatives that I should also be looking at? Should I do self-help or professional training? E.g., I don't feel ready to think about taking self-defense classes yet—I'm certainly not interested in martial arts—but maybe that's a sign that it might be prudent to do so.
I thought about this for a moment...
If you are unconcerned about retaliation, then you could legitimately ask the gym to terminate this person's membership. It's not OK for them to let this person return. Part of the contract is not violating other folk's safety and starting fights or threatening them This fellow started a fight and threatened you.
You might decline to get the other guy kicked out, and instead opt to have the gym provide attendants on the floor whenever you are there. That's maybe shameful for you, y'know, just because some the other guy violated the rules YOU now become the problem in their eyes. Although, if these kinds of folks have memberships, the gym should think about changing their internal policies and always have an attendant on the floor anyway....hmmm...
Yes. You can press charges. It's a misdemeanor. Except for using the gay slur, I think that makes it a felony hate crime. You might want to consult a lawyer.
The good news is that the gym seems to take this seriously. You can and should ask to meet with the director about what happened. Keep in mind they will be looking out for their interests, ultimately, they do not want to be sued. Still, they seem receptive to doing the right thing.
I'm troubled this seems a common thing there? You might just ask for a refund and terminate your membership. You'll want enough money to pay the membership start-up fees at a new gym. They seem to have a problem with their clientele, I don't think you should stick around. there are a lot of gyms out there. Find one with nicer members.
posted by jbenben at 4:13 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you are unconcerned about retaliation, then you could legitimately ask the gym to terminate this person's membership. It's not OK for them to let this person return. Part of the contract is not violating other folk's safety and starting fights or threatening them This fellow started a fight and threatened you.
You might decline to get the other guy kicked out, and instead opt to have the gym provide attendants on the floor whenever you are there. That's maybe shameful for you, y'know, just because some the other guy violated the rules YOU now become the problem in their eyes. Although, if these kinds of folks have memberships, the gym should think about changing their internal policies and always have an attendant on the floor anyway....hmmm...
Yes. You can press charges. It's a misdemeanor. Except for using the gay slur, I think that makes it a felony hate crime. You might want to consult a lawyer.
The good news is that the gym seems to take this seriously. You can and should ask to meet with the director about what happened. Keep in mind they will be looking out for their interests, ultimately, they do not want to be sued. Still, they seem receptive to doing the right thing.
I'm troubled this seems a common thing there? You might just ask for a refund and terminate your membership. You'll want enough money to pay the membership start-up fees at a new gym. They seem to have a problem with their clientele, I don't think you should stick around. there are a lot of gyms out there. Find one with nicer members.
posted by jbenben at 4:13 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
It strikes me that your response was the sort that guys of this type would interpret as "I would like to escalate this particular conflict." Generally a defuse/deflect tactic is the way to go when some dude decides to turn a trivial incident into some stupid contest of manliness.
I'm a little surprised that explicit physical threats aren't a one-strike-and-you're-out deal at your gym. Are you comfortable staying with this gym if he's still going to be there? If not, I'd go back and report the incident directly to management and tell them you expect the guy's membership to be terminated; if they won't do that, it might be best just to find a different gym where you can work out with peace of mind.
Absolutely look into martial arts instruction with contact: not because it'll turn you into somebody who can capably fight younger, stronger assholes, but because having some firsthand experience with fighting can go a long way towards demystifying violent conflict and lessening anxiety about the possibility of experiencing it in real life.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm a little surprised that explicit physical threats aren't a one-strike-and-you're-out deal at your gym. Are you comfortable staying with this gym if he's still going to be there? If not, I'd go back and report the incident directly to management and tell them you expect the guy's membership to be terminated; if they won't do that, it might be best just to find a different gym where you can work out with peace of mind.
Absolutely look into martial arts instruction with contact: not because it'll turn you into somebody who can capably fight younger, stronger assholes, but because having some firsthand experience with fighting can go a long way towards demystifying violent conflict and lessening anxiety about the possibility of experiencing it in real life.
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Firstly, I'm sorry you were threatened. That's not cool.
Here are some gym things.
1. So what a guy drops his bag by your equipment? There was no need to acknowledge it at all. Just finish your sets and move on. Touching his stuff was uncool. Tossing it, even more so. If it was in your way, ask politely if the gentleman can move his gear until you're done.
2. Getting into some kind of verbal pissing match, also unnecessary. All you had to do, if you felt the need to do anything was say, "I'll be finished in two more sets."
3. The club employees did the right thing, they escorted the guy off the premises with a warning. This should be the complete and total end of it.
4. The guy got angry out of proportion. He wasn't cool. You escalated a situation when there was no need to. Acknowledge that perhaps there are better ways to deal with folks than assuming disrespect, and showing disrespect back to them.
5. Filing charges? Kind of overboard. Was this guy a douchebro? Probably. Was he showing out for his friends? Likely. Was his language towards you heinous. Absolutely. Does any of this need to get to the level of law enforcement? No, I don't think so.
I don't think you need lessons in how to deal with aggression, I think you need to learn how to interact with different people in a way that doesn't piss them off, even if it seems that they're starting with you. Don't assume that every muscle bound guy is out to make a monkey out of you. Perhaps he usually stores his gear near that weight bench. Honestly, unless it was in your way there was no reason to say a word.
Based on your account, you started with him and he took it to a scary level. Take this as an indication that there are ways of making your way in the world that don't view every interaction as an opportunity to take offense, especially when none is meant.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [97 favorites]
Here are some gym things.
1. So what a guy drops his bag by your equipment? There was no need to acknowledge it at all. Just finish your sets and move on. Touching his stuff was uncool. Tossing it, even more so. If it was in your way, ask politely if the gentleman can move his gear until you're done.
2. Getting into some kind of verbal pissing match, also unnecessary. All you had to do, if you felt the need to do anything was say, "I'll be finished in two more sets."
3. The club employees did the right thing, they escorted the guy off the premises with a warning. This should be the complete and total end of it.
4. The guy got angry out of proportion. He wasn't cool. You escalated a situation when there was no need to. Acknowledge that perhaps there are better ways to deal with folks than assuming disrespect, and showing disrespect back to them.
5. Filing charges? Kind of overboard. Was this guy a douchebro? Probably. Was he showing out for his friends? Likely. Was his language towards you heinous. Absolutely. Does any of this need to get to the level of law enforcement? No, I don't think so.
I don't think you need lessons in how to deal with aggression, I think you need to learn how to interact with different people in a way that doesn't piss them off, even if it seems that they're starting with you. Don't assume that every muscle bound guy is out to make a monkey out of you. Perhaps he usually stores his gear near that weight bench. Honestly, unless it was in your way there was no reason to say a word.
Based on your account, you started with him and he took it to a scary level. Take this as an indication that there are ways of making your way in the world that don't view every interaction as an opportunity to take offense, especially when none is meant.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:17 PM on January 9, 2016 [97 favorites]
Reading your account, it seems clear to me that you handled this particular situation quite well. The gym staff seems to have responded adequately. While it is certainly possible to pursue formal charges and/or some sort of mediation process with this particular individual, that's something that would take a large investment of time and effort on your part; it would probably be worth thinking through what sort of outcome would be acceptable to you, and how you would feel if it were not achieved, before embarking on such a course.
I mean, in a larger sense, raging assholes/blisters on the knuckle of humanity are a thing that exists in the world, and whether or not you are calm and assertive, they will continue to exist. If you wanted to seek out some form of training to try and resolve such a situation more peacefully, that is certainly something you can do. But you really can't control whether someone else is going to be a jerk or not. Other people being jerks in not a flaw you can correct in yourself.
posted by Diablevert at 4:18 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, in a larger sense, raging assholes/blisters on the knuckle of humanity are a thing that exists in the world, and whether or not you are calm and assertive, they will continue to exist. If you wanted to seek out some form of training to try and resolve such a situation more peacefully, that is certainly something you can do. But you really can't control whether someone else is going to be a jerk or not. Other people being jerks in not a flaw you can correct in yourself.
posted by Diablevert at 4:18 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
you were partly to blame, but this ended ok. i'm not gay or american, so i may be missing a whole pile of things, but the way i read this, you can return to the gym and life will continue as before. you might find you're now on "nodding terms" with this guy.
also, "assertiveness training" should be about how to do this better. being assertive shouldn't mean escalating things.
posted by andrewcooke at 4:25 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
also, "assertiveness training" should be about how to do this better. being assertive shouldn't mean escalating things.
posted by andrewcooke at 4:25 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
I agree with everyone else that you seem to have started the incident, and the gym is doing a good job responding to it. I think you'll probably be okay to continue as if nothing happened.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:32 PM on January 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:32 PM on January 9, 2016 [10 favorites]
I'd get those staff names and write up a summary using their names and see if they will take a copy file it in their in-house tracking of issues between members. Ya never know and event history is a good thing if it comes from a third party.
posted by Freedomboy at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Freedomboy at 4:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Best answer: In the weightroom etiquette that I know, the OP did not start this incident, not unless we want to play blame the victim. It was absolutely aggressive of this young man to put his bag in the place where he was actively using his equipment. In an active weightroom, if you see a set of equipment being actively used, you don't put your shit down next to it unless you are trying to claim that space.
That being said, provoking dudes in a weightroom basically never ends well, because they are all trying to be macho as fuck. I think you did the right thing going to the management, OP. In your situation, instead of picking up his bag and tossing it to him, I would personally just nudge it out of the way with my foot pretending like I had no idea who put it there. If they make a fuss, claim that you are still using the space, and would hate to mess up their stuff by dropping something on it.
Anyway, take a step back. This dude is not going to do anything. It is weightroom aggro posturing. It makes me pissed to think about it so I totally understand your stress, but it is unlikely to result in anything. The only thing you might consider doing is finding a different time to visit that gym if you feel terribly uncomfortable being around that guy. Or, hell, pushing the gym to terminate his membership, because fuck that dude he should not be threatening violence against people for any reason, but then you ARE escalating the situation. Your reaction was fine, and it sucks that this meathead decided to get aggro. You are definitely not going to talk it out with him. Pretend it didn't happen unless it happens again.
posted by ch1x0r at 5:15 PM on January 9, 2016 [15 favorites]
That being said, provoking dudes in a weightroom basically never ends well, because they are all trying to be macho as fuck. I think you did the right thing going to the management, OP. In your situation, instead of picking up his bag and tossing it to him, I would personally just nudge it out of the way with my foot pretending like I had no idea who put it there. If they make a fuss, claim that you are still using the space, and would hate to mess up their stuff by dropping something on it.
Anyway, take a step back. This dude is not going to do anything. It is weightroom aggro posturing. It makes me pissed to think about it so I totally understand your stress, but it is unlikely to result in anything. The only thing you might consider doing is finding a different time to visit that gym if you feel terribly uncomfortable being around that guy. Or, hell, pushing the gym to terminate his membership, because fuck that dude he should not be threatening violence against people for any reason, but then you ARE escalating the situation. Your reaction was fine, and it sucks that this meathead decided to get aggro. You are definitely not going to talk it out with him. Pretend it didn't happen unless it happens again.
posted by ch1x0r at 5:15 PM on January 9, 2016 [15 favorites]
Best answer: This sounds like a very upsetting occurrence, so of course you are rattled and trying to figure out what happened. First of all, I wouldn't put too much thought into his using one homophobic slur as part of a series of abusive remarks. You ran into a hothead. This is probably how he talks. I'm not saying it's acceptable (the staff should tell him in no uncertain terms it is not) - I'm saying you may be overthinking that part in terms of his reaction to you.
If you think this gym is unsafe in general, then I think you have a right to tell the manager that you want to change gyms and need a refund. If you really like this gym, you could just wait and see what happens if you see this guy again. If he continues to act threatening when you don't do anything to provoke him, then yeah, ask them to kick him out.
I don't think you need assertiveness training or martial arts training here. The problem wasn't that you weren't assertive - you were assertive - and he blew up. I'm not defending his actions - I'm just saying the whole situation would have been better if you could have de-escalated ("Sorry dude. Didn't mean any disrespect."). Now if he responds to that by trying to punch you, then absolutely press charges and try to get him banned from the club.
From what you say about yourself, it would probably take years of training for you to be able to defend yourself with martial arts. Better to avoid physical fighting altogether.
I had a fender bender with a woman in a parking lot once. She totally blew up at me and was yelling at me. I calmly said, "We don't have to be mean to each other to deal with this." She completely changed after that, even said that we was just afraid of her husband being angry at her. If I'd have yelled back, we would have both just been yelling at each other. I was able to defuse the situation by meeting her anger with calmness and kindness. I'm not saying that will always work, but responding with aggression with almost always result in more aggression. And nothing productive comes from that.
I realize there is some pressure for men not to back down from a fight, but I don't see any glory in getting or giving a bloody nose when you could have just walked away. The people I know who are trained in martial arts don't get in fights outside the dojo.
posted by FencingGal at 5:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
If you think this gym is unsafe in general, then I think you have a right to tell the manager that you want to change gyms and need a refund. If you really like this gym, you could just wait and see what happens if you see this guy again. If he continues to act threatening when you don't do anything to provoke him, then yeah, ask them to kick him out.
I don't think you need assertiveness training or martial arts training here. The problem wasn't that you weren't assertive - you were assertive - and he blew up. I'm not defending his actions - I'm just saying the whole situation would have been better if you could have de-escalated ("Sorry dude. Didn't mean any disrespect."). Now if he responds to that by trying to punch you, then absolutely press charges and try to get him banned from the club.
From what you say about yourself, it would probably take years of training for you to be able to defend yourself with martial arts. Better to avoid physical fighting altogether.
I had a fender bender with a woman in a parking lot once. She totally blew up at me and was yelling at me. I calmly said, "We don't have to be mean to each other to deal with this." She completely changed after that, even said that we was just afraid of her husband being angry at her. If I'd have yelled back, we would have both just been yelling at each other. I was able to defuse the situation by meeting her anger with calmness and kindness. I'm not saying that will always work, but responding with aggression with almost always result in more aggression. And nothing productive comes from that.
I realize there is some pressure for men not to back down from a fight, but I don't see any glory in getting or giving a bloody nose when you could have just walked away. The people I know who are trained in martial arts don't get in fights outside the dojo.
posted by FencingGal at 5:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
Macho dudes with no concept of other people's space are a thing I've noticed at gyms. It's a (not always) subtle form of aggression. You ideally should have said something to him before touching his bag, but you in no way started it. Then he charged you, physically threatened you, and used a slur. That goes beyond some alpha male verbal posturing. I'd demand his membership be revoked, but only if you're willing to quit if they won't. Talking it out with asshole like that won't do anything.
posted by Mavri at 5:24 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Mavri at 5:24 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for all the comments thus far, both skeptical and supportive. This has been helpful.
posted by polymodus at 5:32 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by polymodus at 5:32 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
A threat of physical violence is assault. I would make a police report. His behavior was way over the line, and it doesn't make sense to wait for him to do something worse.
You may want to speak with a lawyer about getting a restraining order.
posted by grouse at 6:15 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
You may want to speak with a lawyer about getting a restraining order.
posted by grouse at 6:15 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
If you like the gym, I would ask his membership to be terminated. Also, don't touch other people's things at the gym; it's really no big deal.
posted by smoke at 6:30 PM on January 9, 2016
posted by smoke at 6:30 PM on January 9, 2016
You handled that interaction pretty poorly, IMO, and your response was a significant contributor to the escalation. Smack talking toward unknown men often ends poorly. I'm pretty surprised you're surprised - I'm a woman and sometimes miss the nuance involved in male-male interactions, but as I was reading what you said in response, my mental thought was "oh boy, OP is asking for it". The language you used was very aggressive and rude and I'm not surprised at all by what happened. There are far less potentially problematic ways to communicate your point.
Now that said, while it isn't surprising that he responded aggressively to your comment, it's still not okay for him to have done so and he's definitely the one in the wrong. I think it would be pretty reasonable for you to ask the gym to terminate his membership. I would let it go at that, though - it hardly seems worth pressing charges over since nobody was injured.
posted by zug at 7:42 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Now that said, while it isn't surprising that he responded aggressively to your comment, it's still not okay for him to have done so and he's definitely the one in the wrong. I think it would be pretty reasonable for you to ask the gym to terminate his membership. I would let it go at that, though - it hardly seems worth pressing charges over since nobody was injured.
posted by zug at 7:42 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
blind spots
How big was this guy? There might have been a bit of roid rage going on. (He could also not be big [yet] but be taking the stuff, though.) I am not a man and wouldn't know what to do if faced with this kind of aggression, but it could have been a factor.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
How big was this guy? There might have been a bit of roid rage going on. (He could also not be big [yet] but be taking the stuff, though.) I am not a man and wouldn't know what to do if faced with this kind of aggression, but it could have been a factor.
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:47 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do think you started off on the wrong foot by assuming hostile intent on his part. But regardless of gym etiquette and who is to blame and getting justice, etc., do you feel comfortable continuing to come to this gym? If so, I suggest you completely ignore this person, pretend they do not exist, and go on with your life. If you don't feel comfortable at the gym knowing you might have to interact with this guy, does he come there often? Is your continued use of the gym going to actually intersect with his use of the gym more often than, say, once every few months? If not, I say continue coming to the gym and go on with your life. If, on the other hand, this guy is going to be there every time you go work out and he is so hostile that you cannot use the gym, go find another gym.
It's a lot easier to change your own behavior and mentality than it is to get someone else to change theirs, or to get a third party to intervene on your behalf. That isn't to say you're wrong or you're right, it's just a fact of life in everyday interpersonal frustrations like these. This sort of shit is going to come up and you have to decide what you're going to do about it. One option is to just let it slide.
When I get into situations like this, I just think about it in terms of time commitment. Do I want to spend hours fighting with management to get them to do something? Do I want to spend my precious time on this earth trying to exact revenge on someone for a slight that will probably seem increasingly unimportant to me as the days go by? I'm guessing you wrote this in the heat of the moment shortly after the incident. Give it a few days. Then answer the questions in my first paragraph and see if you can let it go. If not, get a new gym. Don't waste your life suing someone because they were an asshole to you one time.
posted by deathpanels at 8:01 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a lot easier to change your own behavior and mentality than it is to get someone else to change theirs, or to get a third party to intervene on your behalf. That isn't to say you're wrong or you're right, it's just a fact of life in everyday interpersonal frustrations like these. This sort of shit is going to come up and you have to decide what you're going to do about it. One option is to just let it slide.
When I get into situations like this, I just think about it in terms of time commitment. Do I want to spend hours fighting with management to get them to do something? Do I want to spend my precious time on this earth trying to exact revenge on someone for a slight that will probably seem increasingly unimportant to me as the days go by? I'm guessing you wrote this in the heat of the moment shortly after the incident. Give it a few days. Then answer the questions in my first paragraph and see if you can let it go. If not, get a new gym. Don't waste your life suing someone because they were an asshole to you one time.
posted by deathpanels at 8:01 PM on January 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
You were in the wrong both in moving the bag, and in being aggressive about it, but I'm not sure you're going to listen given you best answered the one guy who told you you were right. Sometimes people put their bag down to call "next", it doesn't mean they're being an asshole.
Also, given that you described your response as just "abstract" rather than what it was, which is aggressive, I'm not sure you're the most reliable narrator of this story, which may be why they didn't ban the other guy from the gym.
Don't worry about it, just don't start fights in future.
posted by corb at 8:46 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Also, given that you described your response as just "abstract" rather than what it was, which is aggressive, I'm not sure you're the most reliable narrator of this story, which may be why they didn't ban the other guy from the gym.
Don't worry about it, just don't start fights in future.
posted by corb at 8:46 PM on January 9, 2016 [7 favorites]
Pretty sure ch1x0r is a woman, not a guy. Also that nothing that happened here justifies threats of physical violence.
posted by grouse at 8:52 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by grouse at 8:52 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
I strongly object to the assertion that men in the weight room are "are all trying to be macho as fuck." The majority of people at most gyms, especially regulars, do not care at all about impressing other people in the gym. Obviously this one guy was a bit of a whack job, but I don't think there's any sense in slandering all weight lifters because of one bad apple. Most of us are just there to lift and go home. Most guys lifting weights are respectful, normal people trying to get some exercise and do not go around trying to start fights. It's also ironic to throw out this stereotype given that it is the OP himself who is also clearly acting "macho as fuck" in this scenario. Like attracts like.
posted by deathpanels at 9:20 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by deathpanels at 9:20 PM on January 9, 2016 [8 favorites]
Oh! Whether you decide to stay with this gym or not, you could advertise for a workout partner on Craigslist, I've seen that.
Maybe look for someone who could model or explain appropriate brohaviour. Because I agree, there's a lot of time and learning invested in knowing gym etiquette. The ad could say something like, "New to weightlifting, doing 5x5 [or whatever - I guess it matters to some people] - looking for an LGTB-friendly workout partner for Thursday evenings and Saturday afternoons, [area]".
On preview, deathpanels - I once got major, scary stinkeye from a guy who'd left his gear around the cable machine (I didn't see it, he was on a rest, took his machine). The stinkeye followed me around for the whole hour, along with some chest-puffing. That was a one-off, but there are some rules it's helpful to know about.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Maybe look for someone who could model or explain appropriate brohaviour. Because I agree, there's a lot of time and learning invested in knowing gym etiquette. The ad could say something like, "New to weightlifting, doing 5x5 [or whatever - I guess it matters to some people] - looking for an LGTB-friendly workout partner for Thursday evenings and Saturday afternoons, [area]".
On preview, deathpanels - I once got major, scary stinkeye from a guy who'd left his gear around the cable machine (I didn't see it, he was on a rest, took his machine). The stinkeye followed me around for the whole hour, along with some chest-puffing. That was a one-off, but there are some rules it's helpful to know about.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:21 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: You asserted yourself too much too early.
Assertiveness training teaches that new learners tend to overcompensate, acting too assertively. Seems like you have described this effect. (I used to be passive when I was younger.)
1. So what a guy drops his bag by your equipment?
I have a formal interview with the gym managers in a few days, so I'd like to use your comment as an opportunity to recounting the interaction. Tentatively, they've expressed hope and optimism that things can be worked out. So:
OK, one new detail I suddenly recall: Somebody had moved my things, my cellphone and gym card, not more than 5 minutes earlier to all this starting. A guy in a certain shirt and maybe cap, sat on where my phone was placed! I certainly wasn't rude or confrontational about that, I just picked up my phone where he seemed to have shifted it. I'll mention this to the staff.
About the person's bag, it was not simply "by" the equipment. The backpack sized item was flush next to the barbell, laying dead center. To visualize, where my feet would have been placed, below the bar.
I wasn't exactly offended. I was mildly, "eye-roll" exasperated. I move it 5 feet away. If dropping was an issue, I gently dropped it no harder than how I heard it was dropped. Yes, it was a clumsy choice that I did any this. Honestly, a part of me already warned me, but I didn't listen. Another part said, I'm tired of this, it's always the men who don't check their surroundings, entitled to take all the space. It was just incredibly awkward for me, internally. It's a microaggression, my apologies for using that word.
The individual comes over, glaring, and demands that "Before you touch my things, ask me."
My very first words are quiet and calm; I look at him and state: "I don't have to do that for you."
My instinct is as follows. As an adult, I do not need to do any such thing. I will not comply with authoritarian demands.
He gets closer, repeats as if I didn't understand. He expresses his rationalization, saying, "What part of not respecting do you not understand?… This is about respect … What's wrong with your thought process?" Etc.
I'm thinking, that's bullshit. It was verbally demeaning, from the top.
It's only when he gets closer and closer and with his friend start to squabble at me, that I get agitated. I raise my voice, and go hyperlogical on him. I did project loudly at points, but I never exploded in rage, or moved aggressively physically. I mere used some rhetoric appropriate at a UC Berkeley protest. To the best of my recollection, I didn't even say that much. Mainly, I physically stood my place.
What ran through my head at that moment (he was standing right up against me, in retrospect a reenactment of how the bag was up against the barbell!) was, "OK I can't deal with this". So I turned my head, yelled, for security, and the bystanders just semi-laughed or sighed.
At one point, when backs off again, there's a lull. I approach my barbell, asking him in a measured tone, "Is it okay if I finish my work out?" He comes toward me again. So, internally, I'm like, screw it, I'm outta here.
Was that kind of speech truly rude, of me? Mean? Unkind? I am not certain. Defensive, yes, I think. Un-American? No?
Can I think of better speech? Here's one: "Ah, hey! Sorry, did you know I'm still using this equipment, could you move your bag please." Tada.
But, is that level of kindness realistic to expect in real situations? Some commenters' advice seems to presume as such. I do not know the answer. I can feel both sides in me. Honestly, a part of me thought that if I said such a thing, he would do something to subtly put me down.
Still, is it an ideal to strive for? Yes, maybe. FencingGal, thank you for setting an example. I shall keep it in mind.
Long term, I am more aware of the personal development implications down the road. I found assertiveness training in prior Ask-Me comments:
I work in science policy, in which quiet, solitary science types are routinely thrust into the cut-throat environment of federal/international policy. Political types can run roughshod over science types, speaking very generally, and even academics who come to this environment after having been feared, powerful research scientists are handed their asses on rusty platters as a matter of routine. / For the last several years, I've helped incoming folks go through assertiveness training as a response to this.—link
It sounds like your son could really use to develop his assertiveness skills… Bullies often pick on people who aren't assertive because they suspect… But I think it's really important that you help him take it on, because he's leaving the protected and regulated world of school, —link
The academic emphasis resonates for me. Psychological assertiveness (assertiveness training) is:
Assertiveness is an alternative response more suited to the solving of the kind of relationship problems that we find ourselves in, in modern community living. It involves the use of more sophisticated brain and verbal skills such as listening, empathy, discussion and negotiation. Assertive behaviour is honest, direct, clear, expressive, self-enhancing, persistent and respectful. —source
Practicing these communicative/thinking skills encourages members to interact at a higher social level. It's more general than the task of handling an angry moment, i.e. defusing (yourself, and others) is part of the skillset of assertiveness methods. As learned skills, they are something I can work on.
I'm troubled this seems a common thing there?
It's a large, new, nominally "family-friendly", commercial gym, but not the university setting which was my reference point from when I was a grad student. I sometimes visit a local community gym where there's a better variety of ages using the weights area.
I do have prior personal trauma. When I process normal advice like, I should have smiled pleasantly, or learn "normal" social skills, or say something kind, and those would have preempted things. It's what I mean by having lots to work on—to learn/relearn. How much of this advice is only about fitting in, going with the flow, and how much of it is truly empowering? Maybe to some, it sounds like an abstract worry. But I feel it in my heart.
My own fucking rhetoric instructor told us, do not expect in class that I will be nice. I don't know, maybe that's something I inherited, with some consequences for cultural survivability.
Regarding the homophobia, I feel this is the kind of thing where people wield gay slurs and one day it is "unintentionally" said to someone to whom it is actually relevant. This is modern, structural discrimination. No matter how I react to it, then or now, the damage is done. They get away with it. He called me "faggot", and I retorted, "I am!" So I outed myself, to other gymgoers present, to the staff during the meeting yesterday. Seriously, fuck that shit:
You handled that interaction pretty poorly, IMO, and your response was a significant contributor to the escalation. Smack talking toward unknown men often ends poorly.
Absolutely correct. As a gay male I can pass as a man, yet ultimately have less liberty in my speech: I am supposed to anticipate how men and boys react, and standing up is equivalent to smack talking. Story of my life‚ and I guess many other people who aren't like them. That's modern culture. I worry that this, here, is my talent in provocating people, again rearing itself. Sorry.
Appreciate the bouncing off of questions and evaluations - including any that I may have criticized or was defensive about or tried to clarify - but as per advice given, I going off keyboard to spend lots of time digesting all this instead of talking more. Thanks again.
posted by polymodus at 9:35 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Assertiveness training teaches that new learners tend to overcompensate, acting too assertively. Seems like you have described this effect. (I used to be passive when I was younger.)
1. So what a guy drops his bag by your equipment?
I have a formal interview with the gym managers in a few days, so I'd like to use your comment as an opportunity to recounting the interaction. Tentatively, they've expressed hope and optimism that things can be worked out. So:
OK, one new detail I suddenly recall: Somebody had moved my things, my cellphone and gym card, not more than 5 minutes earlier to all this starting. A guy in a certain shirt and maybe cap, sat on where my phone was placed! I certainly wasn't rude or confrontational about that, I just picked up my phone where he seemed to have shifted it. I'll mention this to the staff.
About the person's bag, it was not simply "by" the equipment. The backpack sized item was flush next to the barbell, laying dead center. To visualize, where my feet would have been placed, below the bar.
I wasn't exactly offended. I was mildly, "eye-roll" exasperated. I move it 5 feet away. If dropping was an issue, I gently dropped it no harder than how I heard it was dropped. Yes, it was a clumsy choice that I did any this. Honestly, a part of me already warned me, but I didn't listen. Another part said, I'm tired of this, it's always the men who don't check their surroundings, entitled to take all the space. It was just incredibly awkward for me, internally. It's a microaggression, my apologies for using that word.
The individual comes over, glaring, and demands that "Before you touch my things, ask me."
My very first words are quiet and calm; I look at him and state: "I don't have to do that for you."
My instinct is as follows. As an adult, I do not need to do any such thing. I will not comply with authoritarian demands.
He gets closer, repeats as if I didn't understand. He expresses his rationalization, saying, "What part of not respecting do you not understand?… This is about respect … What's wrong with your thought process?" Etc.
I'm thinking, that's bullshit. It was verbally demeaning, from the top.
It's only when he gets closer and closer and with his friend start to squabble at me, that I get agitated. I raise my voice, and go hyperlogical on him. I did project loudly at points, but I never exploded in rage, or moved aggressively physically. I mere used some rhetoric appropriate at a UC Berkeley protest. To the best of my recollection, I didn't even say that much. Mainly, I physically stood my place.
What ran through my head at that moment (he was standing right up against me, in retrospect a reenactment of how the bag was up against the barbell!) was, "OK I can't deal with this". So I turned my head, yelled, for security, and the bystanders just semi-laughed or sighed.
At one point, when backs off again, there's a lull. I approach my barbell, asking him in a measured tone, "Is it okay if I finish my work out?" He comes toward me again. So, internally, I'm like, screw it, I'm outta here.
Was that kind of speech truly rude, of me? Mean? Unkind? I am not certain. Defensive, yes, I think. Un-American? No?
Can I think of better speech? Here's one: "Ah, hey! Sorry, did you know I'm still using this equipment, could you move your bag please." Tada.
But, is that level of kindness realistic to expect in real situations? Some commenters' advice seems to presume as such. I do not know the answer. I can feel both sides in me. Honestly, a part of me thought that if I said such a thing, he would do something to subtly put me down.
Still, is it an ideal to strive for? Yes, maybe. FencingGal, thank you for setting an example. I shall keep it in mind.
Long term, I am more aware of the personal development implications down the road. I found assertiveness training in prior Ask-Me comments:
I work in science policy, in which quiet, solitary science types are routinely thrust into the cut-throat environment of federal/international policy. Political types can run roughshod over science types, speaking very generally, and even academics who come to this environment after having been feared, powerful research scientists are handed their asses on rusty platters as a matter of routine. / For the last several years, I've helped incoming folks go through assertiveness training as a response to this.—link
It sounds like your son could really use to develop his assertiveness skills… Bullies often pick on people who aren't assertive because they suspect… But I think it's really important that you help him take it on, because he's leaving the protected and regulated world of school, —link
The academic emphasis resonates for me. Psychological assertiveness (assertiveness training) is:
Assertiveness is an alternative response more suited to the solving of the kind of relationship problems that we find ourselves in, in modern community living. It involves the use of more sophisticated brain and verbal skills such as listening, empathy, discussion and negotiation. Assertive behaviour is honest, direct, clear, expressive, self-enhancing, persistent and respectful. —source
Practicing these communicative/thinking skills encourages members to interact at a higher social level. It's more general than the task of handling an angry moment, i.e. defusing (yourself, and others) is part of the skillset of assertiveness methods. As learned skills, they are something I can work on.
I'm troubled this seems a common thing there?
It's a large, new, nominally "family-friendly", commercial gym, but not the university setting which was my reference point from when I was a grad student. I sometimes visit a local community gym where there's a better variety of ages using the weights area.
I do have prior personal trauma. When I process normal advice like, I should have smiled pleasantly, or learn "normal" social skills, or say something kind, and those would have preempted things. It's what I mean by having lots to work on—to learn/relearn. How much of this advice is only about fitting in, going with the flow, and how much of it is truly empowering? Maybe to some, it sounds like an abstract worry. But I feel it in my heart.
My own fucking rhetoric instructor told us, do not expect in class that I will be nice. I don't know, maybe that's something I inherited, with some consequences for cultural survivability.
Regarding the homophobia, I feel this is the kind of thing where people wield gay slurs and one day it is "unintentionally" said to someone to whom it is actually relevant. This is modern, structural discrimination. No matter how I react to it, then or now, the damage is done. They get away with it. He called me "faggot", and I retorted, "I am!" So I outed myself, to other gymgoers present, to the staff during the meeting yesterday. Seriously, fuck that shit:
You handled that interaction pretty poorly, IMO, and your response was a significant contributor to the escalation. Smack talking toward unknown men often ends poorly.
Absolutely correct. As a gay male I can pass as a man, yet ultimately have less liberty in my speech: I am supposed to anticipate how men and boys react, and standing up is equivalent to smack talking. Story of my life‚ and I guess many other people who aren't like them. That's modern culture. I worry that this, here, is my talent in provocating people, again rearing itself. Sorry.
Appreciate the bouncing off of questions and evaluations - including any that I may have criticized or was defensive about or tried to clarify - but as per advice given, I going off keyboard to spend lots of time digesting all this instead of talking more. Thanks again.
posted by polymodus at 9:35 PM on January 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: It's also ironic to throw out this stereotype given that it is the OP himself who is also clearly acting "macho as fuck" in this scenario.
I contest this? I have an effeminate voice. OK I don't know, maybe my above notes will help clarify. Thanks.
posted by polymodus at 9:37 PM on January 9, 2016
I contest this? I have an effeminate voice. OK I don't know, maybe my above notes will help clarify. Thanks.
posted by polymodus at 9:37 PM on January 9, 2016
polymodus, I will validate for you (and ch1x0r) that the weight area is often a macho, sometimes homophobic, sometimes misogynistic space by default. Gyms are more or less so than others, depending on all kinds of things. People who are already comfortable in a macho atmosphere (for whatever reasons) may not notice structural discrimination as much.
I don't think more theory or an academic approach is going to be helpful in terms of negotiating this space (neither is activist training, probably). I think it's a question of habitus (cf Bourdieu); only by doing it are you going to really learn how to take your place in this particular space. 2nd my own suggestion of getting a workout partner, and maybe going to the more comfortable gym you mentioned.
I'm sorry this happened, and was as traumatizing as it was.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:52 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think more theory or an academic approach is going to be helpful in terms of negotiating this space (neither is activist training, probably). I think it's a question of habitus (cf Bourdieu); only by doing it are you going to really learn how to take your place in this particular space. 2nd my own suggestion of getting a workout partner, and maybe going to the more comfortable gym you mentioned.
I'm sorry this happened, and was as traumatizing as it was.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:52 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
Does your gym not have a locker room? Why are people dropping their stuff all over the place? Your phone and gym card, his backpack. This whole problem goes away if people put their shit in the dedicated place for personal items. That way others aren't tripping over it.
He was totally wrong in his reaction. Threats are not okay. However, you touched his stuff and then actively escalated the issue. The whole "I don't need to ask" thing is disrespectful, not assertive. Your behavior is not what assertiveness looks like.
Next step, document what happened with the gym staff and ask for a copy. In all likelihood, the whole thing will blow over. If you two get into a dust up again, then one or both of you need to leave that gym.
posted by 26.2 at 10:33 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
He was totally wrong in his reaction. Threats are not okay. However, you touched his stuff and then actively escalated the issue. The whole "I don't need to ask" thing is disrespectful, not assertive. Your behavior is not what assertiveness looks like.
Next step, document what happened with the gym staff and ask for a copy. In all likelihood, the whole thing will blow over. If you two get into a dust up again, then one or both of you need to leave that gym.
posted by 26.2 at 10:33 PM on January 9, 2016 [4 favorites]
Best answer: polymodus, just want to say that I completely understand what you went through here. I'm a woman and once ended up in an altercation with a really aggressive man for touching his stuff (an unattended radio in the street) without permission. It escalated almost immediately to his getting physically up in my face and making threats and slurs, even though all I said was "people are trying to sleep." Like somebody said, aggro guys gonna aggro, and I think those of us who don't realize we're expected to immediately back down and apologize in these situations can end up in danger quick, especially if we're minorities. I do think the best advice for safety's sake is to make sure you're at a gym that's inclusive and has a zero-tolerance policy for harassment, and get some LBGT gym buddies. It sucks and I'm sorry this happened to you.
posted by thetortoise at 11:08 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by thetortoise at 11:08 PM on January 9, 2016 [5 favorites]
This dude was a dick.
But look: touching a stranger's property without permission is no bueno. That's one of the unspoken rules of the animal kingdom. An "excuse me, machine's all yours in a minute. Mind if I move your bag while I finish these reps?" would have probably kept this interaction to 3 seconds.
posted by jessca84 at 11:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
But look: touching a stranger's property without permission is no bueno. That's one of the unspoken rules of the animal kingdom. An "excuse me, machine's all yours in a minute. Mind if I move your bag while I finish these reps?" would have probably kept this interaction to 3 seconds.
posted by jessca84 at 11:19 PM on January 9, 2016 [13 favorites]
Mod note: Quick note: Folks please concentrate on answering OP's question (are there aspects / blind spots I need to be considering and what are the best practices moving forward? ) rather than arguing or debating with other commenters, and OP, this isn't the place for an extended back-and-forth, or general discussion. Not every answer will be useful or one you necessarily agree with, but that's the nature of the format, and concentrating on advice that seems most helpful to you is the way to go. Thanks, all.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:33 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 11:33 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Dumping your stuff on equipment can be an aggressive move--but it can also be an attempt to ensure you get next in line to use it. I do this if I think the other person is done. Assuming the other guy thought you were done and did this by mistake is the first step to avoiding a situation like this. Even if you are quite sure he didn't, start out that way because it requires him to escalate along every step of the way.
I usually deal with it by walking up to the items, looking the owner directly in the eye and in a friendly voice saying "I'm still using this, you mind if I move this?" The question is purely out of politeness, the underlying message is "No, you do not mind, because you are not a rude asshole, right?"If I'm not sure of the owner, I look around at nearby people, and loudly (but still in a friendly tone) asking if they know who this belongs to.
The only reason I would touch their stuff is if I couldn't identify the owner. And if the person came over, I'd say "Oh, I moved it because I was still using it and didn't know who it belonged to."
99.9% of the time this will defuse any situation, unless the guy was really looking for a fight. In your case I wonder if the guy just wasn't looking to be a macho man and push your buttons--and you macho'd right back. He's in the wrong but you could definitely have handled things a little better.
posted by Anonymous at 11:54 PM on January 9, 2016
I usually deal with it by walking up to the items, looking the owner directly in the eye and in a friendly voice saying "I'm still using this, you mind if I move this?" The question is purely out of politeness, the underlying message is "No, you do not mind, because you are not a rude asshole, right?"If I'm not sure of the owner, I look around at nearby people, and loudly (but still in a friendly tone) asking if they know who this belongs to.
The only reason I would touch their stuff is if I couldn't identify the owner. And if the person came over, I'd say "Oh, I moved it because I was still using it and didn't know who it belonged to."
99.9% of the time this will defuse any situation, unless the guy was really looking for a fight. In your case I wonder if the guy just wasn't looking to be a macho man and push your buttons--and you macho'd right back. He's in the wrong but you could definitely have handled things a little better.
posted by Anonymous at 11:54 PM on January 9, 2016
1. You were turned away from equipment.
2. Someone put down something next to it. -- this can be an easy mistake to make given #1 depending on how long your rest period was/distance from equipment
3. You touched someone's belongings when they were right there to ask. Don't do this. Ever. EVER.
4. They said don't do that without asking. -- lesson learned, because don't do that
5. You said I don't need to ask. -- thereby taking a negative interaction further
6. They flipped their shit which is NOT OKAY. That's on them.
Lesson seems clear. You broke a social rule intentionally whereas perhaps their infraction was unintentional and you escalated verbally then they escalated verbally and physically. That does not at all excuse their reaction, but you aren't a blameless creature here. Learn from that. Assertive does not equal breaking a social rule at a perceived slight and then upping the stakes. Assertive is "excuse me, I am still using this, can you move your stuff?"
Be polite and strong. That's assertive. Negative and defensive is not.
You documented it with the appropriate people. The guy is probably over it or feels bad about his reaction. You just wrote an entire novel response... I dunno, man, move on. If he EVER comments to you or is in your face again, you should absolutely contact the police but as of now this is a one off where you were not helping the situation. Let it go.
The way you phrase things it seems like you either have a ton of anxiety over social interactions or you're just not understanding them without a lot of practice? That's cool. As with most things in the brain and social related, therapy can help. Your entire descriptions is incredibly alien sounding to me, but we're all different.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:05 AM on January 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
2. Someone put down something next to it. -- this can be an easy mistake to make given #1 depending on how long your rest period was/distance from equipment
3. You touched someone's belongings when they were right there to ask. Don't do this. Ever. EVER.
4. They said don't do that without asking. -- lesson learned, because don't do that
5. You said I don't need to ask. -- thereby taking a negative interaction further
6. They flipped their shit which is NOT OKAY. That's on them.
Lesson seems clear. You broke a social rule intentionally whereas perhaps their infraction was unintentional and you escalated verbally then they escalated verbally and physically. That does not at all excuse their reaction, but you aren't a blameless creature here. Learn from that. Assertive does not equal breaking a social rule at a perceived slight and then upping the stakes. Assertive is "excuse me, I am still using this, can you move your stuff?"
Be polite and strong. That's assertive. Negative and defensive is not.
You documented it with the appropriate people. The guy is probably over it or feels bad about his reaction. You just wrote an entire novel response... I dunno, man, move on. If he EVER comments to you or is in your face again, you should absolutely contact the police but as of now this is a one off where you were not helping the situation. Let it go.
The way you phrase things it seems like you either have a ton of anxiety over social interactions or you're just not understanding them without a lot of practice? That's cool. As with most things in the brain and social related, therapy can help. Your entire descriptions is incredibly alien sounding to me, but we're all different.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 1:05 AM on January 10, 2016 [16 favorites]
So, maybe could have been handled a little better*, but the fact that the other person charged you and called you a homophobic slur demonstrates that this guy is just a pretty crap person.
Personally, yes, I would have him excluded from the club and file charges—no place that you pay money for should be a dangerous place for you to use. And the history of him having an existing charge may help the next time he pushes someone around. Bullies like this are only going to stop if they're held accountable, and this guy's probably been pushing people around without meaningful reprecussions since the third grade.
* like, by moving his stuff to the side more gently—but again, I think that the threatening actions and words that he chose to employ in a public place demonstrate that this was probably a no-win situation; that this guy enjoys throwing his weight around and intimidating others.
posted by blueberry at 5:08 AM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Personally, yes, I would have him excluded from the club and file charges—no place that you pay money for should be a dangerous place for you to use. And the history of him having an existing charge may help the next time he pushes someone around. Bullies like this are only going to stop if they're held accountable, and this guy's probably been pushing people around without meaningful reprecussions since the third grade.
* like, by moving his stuff to the side more gently—but again, I think that the threatening actions and words that he chose to employ in a public place demonstrate that this was probably a no-win situation; that this guy enjoys throwing his weight around and intimidating others.
posted by blueberry at 5:08 AM on January 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
You seem to think that if you say something in a calm tone of voice, that's not escalating/not aggressive. 'I don't have to do that for you' is appropriate in some situations. At a protest to the police it means 'I know my legal rights and I am going to exercise them.'
However, in the gym situation you described, making eye contact and saying that quietly is absolutely escalating the situation. How would you feel if you'd asked him to move his stuff and he'd looked you in the eye and said that to you? Getting hyper logical is also almost never going to deescalate a situation, no matter how calm your tone of voice.
Then you say when there's a 'lull' (ie when the whole thing could have been over and done with) you ask him 'is it okay if I start up my work out again?' Again, just because you said it in a calm tone of voice doesn't mean it's not aggressive. If you want to continue your work out, do it. Don't start up with him again. What do you want him to say in response here? Do you care what he says? Why are you trying to drag this conflict out? Let it go.
Obviously I'm not saying he wasn't in the wrong at all. Threatening to break someone's jaw over a gym bag is not okay. But you don't seem to have a great sense of the part that you played here.
posted by geegollygosh at 5:13 AM on January 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
However, in the gym situation you described, making eye contact and saying that quietly is absolutely escalating the situation. How would you feel if you'd asked him to move his stuff and he'd looked you in the eye and said that to you? Getting hyper logical is also almost never going to deescalate a situation, no matter how calm your tone of voice.
Then you say when there's a 'lull' (ie when the whole thing could have been over and done with) you ask him 'is it okay if I start up my work out again?' Again, just because you said it in a calm tone of voice doesn't mean it's not aggressive. If you want to continue your work out, do it. Don't start up with him again. What do you want him to say in response here? Do you care what he says? Why are you trying to drag this conflict out? Let it go.
Obviously I'm not saying he wasn't in the wrong at all. Threatening to break someone's jaw over a gym bag is not okay. But you don't seem to have a great sense of the part that you played here.
posted by geegollygosh at 5:13 AM on January 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
It's not clear from the OP if the dude's bag drop was blocking the OP from doing his reps. If so, the situation would have still called for an initial polite inquiry such as "I'm not done yet. Ok if I move your stuff?" rather than picking it up and moving it.
If the dude's bag drop did not impede exercise, then, at least in every weight room I've ever been in in the US, there's nothing further to talk about, and the OP was wrong from step one.
No matter which of the above is true, the other dude's homophobic slurs and assault are inexcusable. As a woman, I avoid antagonizing dudes. Sometimes they do it without provocation; they don't need my help. I might never return to this gym and start over somewhere else, chastened to not immediately escalate from step one.
I would at least ask the gym management to revoke his membership, because no matter what you said or did, he was the one who got physical, not you.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:30 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
If the dude's bag drop did not impede exercise, then, at least in every weight room I've ever been in in the US, there's nothing further to talk about, and the OP was wrong from step one.
No matter which of the above is true, the other dude's homophobic slurs and assault are inexcusable. As a woman, I avoid antagonizing dudes. Sometimes they do it without provocation; they don't need my help. I might never return to this gym and start over somewhere else, chastened to not immediately escalate from step one.
I would at least ask the gym management to revoke his membership, because no matter what you said or did, he was the one who got physical, not you.
posted by ImproviseOrDie at 5:30 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
You seem to be invested in being on the moral high-ground here, and if you're viewing all of your interactions with people this way, you're going to have a lot of trouble in the world (as you're discovering.)
Not every interaction is a measure of your manhood. Not everyone who does something you don't like is out to disrespect you. Not every social dynamic is to be dissected and evaluated.
Rather than try to map the complexities of human interaction, perhaps you ought to approach the people in the world as mostly just wanting to get through it with as little drama as possible. Does it mean that you occasionally eats some shit? Yes. So what?
Rather than going through life trying to figure out if people are out to get you in some way, how about you decide that most of the time people don't even notice you, that most folks are wrapped up in what they're thinking about and that you're just some background to their lives?
If you feel you must impress yourself on people, be nice, decide to be the blessing in someone's life. As a woman, and a strong personality, I have to decide if something is worth my energy, in most cases I have more important things to worry about than if some dick steals my place in line or if some broad is being nasty at my expense. Funny thing about starving shitty situations of oxygen. They die quickly without fanfare.
It's the insecure people of the world who feel the need to stand up to assholes. Assholes gonna asshole. This is not new. If you are secure enough in yourself, you're not going to care about what jerks think about you.
So treat others as you'd like to be treated and if someone hurts your feelings, let it go. It's not important.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:32 AM on January 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Not every interaction is a measure of your manhood. Not everyone who does something you don't like is out to disrespect you. Not every social dynamic is to be dissected and evaluated.
Rather than try to map the complexities of human interaction, perhaps you ought to approach the people in the world as mostly just wanting to get through it with as little drama as possible. Does it mean that you occasionally eats some shit? Yes. So what?
Rather than going through life trying to figure out if people are out to get you in some way, how about you decide that most of the time people don't even notice you, that most folks are wrapped up in what they're thinking about and that you're just some background to their lives?
If you feel you must impress yourself on people, be nice, decide to be the blessing in someone's life. As a woman, and a strong personality, I have to decide if something is worth my energy, in most cases I have more important things to worry about than if some dick steals my place in line or if some broad is being nasty at my expense. Funny thing about starving shitty situations of oxygen. They die quickly without fanfare.
It's the insecure people of the world who feel the need to stand up to assholes. Assholes gonna asshole. This is not new. If you are secure enough in yourself, you're not going to care about what jerks think about you.
So treat others as you'd like to be treated and if someone hurts your feelings, let it go. It's not important.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 5:32 AM on January 10, 2016 [15 favorites]
Assholes gonna asshole...until they are met with consequences like a court date or a fine—something that tells them “Hey, maybe this whole bully thing is costing me too much financially...”
And, it's not what this person thinks about you (he’s made himself clear on that with the epithet he dropped), it's that in a public place he threatened to assault you (and hard enough to break bone). He’s a menace and a matter for the police.
posted by blueberry at 5:48 AM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Best answer: When things like this happen, I often find myself faced with two choices: de-escalate the situation or stand up for myself. I have yet to discover a good method to combine those two. When I have enough presence of mind to choose between the two I often ask myself: (1) will I be returning to this place/seeing this person again? (2) how fed up am I? (3) am I in danger?
I think people are assuming you wanted to de-escalate when it sounds like you picked the standing up for yourself route. It has been my experience that there is fallout from picking standing up for myself (safety concerns and doubt). In this case, because the staff was so supportive, I would go back to them and say something like "I still feel unsafe but would like to keep coming to this gym. What can you do for me?" And see what they say.
posted by CMcG at 6:25 AM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think people are assuming you wanted to de-escalate when it sounds like you picked the standing up for yourself route. It has been my experience that there is fallout from picking standing up for myself (safety concerns and doubt). In this case, because the staff was so supportive, I would go back to them and say something like "I still feel unsafe but would like to keep coming to this gym. What can you do for me?" And see what they say.
posted by CMcG at 6:25 AM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
Btw I don't think one choice (de-escalate or standup for yourself) is superior to the other. Very contextual & very personal choices.
posted by CMcG at 6:26 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by CMcG at 6:26 AM on January 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Look, this is gonna hurt, but, find a new gym. That guy hates you. If his friends don't already hate you, they will. Even if he beat the crap out of you, he'd STILL hate you. Find a new gym.
posted by Chitownfats at 6:28 AM on January 10, 2016
posted by Chitownfats at 6:28 AM on January 10, 2016
I am sorry this happened to you.
You seem really focused on figuring out norms and who is in the right. I get the urge. But really, the end goal is, how can you use the gym, one, and two, is this guy dangerous to you or others.
People are not at the gym to teach you social norms or be your testing ground. They are there to work out.
I would say that at a lot of gyms I've patronized, people are very much in their own headspaces. How this played out is unusual; it's not a norm that people will have an agreement on.
So, for the gym...it actually sounds to me like the gym staff took your concerns seriously and that your safety and continued patronage was a concern. I do think gyms should be spaces where people do not have to be worried about being called names and so on. At your meeting, if you go ahead with it, I would express your concerns that you want to feel safe and not be threatened. I wouldn't try to argue with citations...they're a business, they probably also care about people's safety and comfort, so you agree on these things. You are looking for a solution, not a decision on who is right.
I think to decide whether it is really an ongoing problem regardless, you have to go back and see if all the guys use this language and means of interaction. I don't think a meeting is going to help you in this. You'll have to try it out. (Or get a refund and join a different gym.)
I think by touching the guy's stuff you violated social norms first. His response was over the top and not okay, but if you were on public transit and someone's bag was on a seat and you moved it, you would probably recognize that -- even though it's a jerk move for someone to block a seat with their bag, touching it is an aggressive way to handle it, and making it a "respect" issue was escalating it. So you are the jerk in his mind. Whether he cools down or not is something you don't know yet.
People are both inadvertent and deliberate jerks all the time at the gym. They don't wipe things down, some people seem to believe their need for whatever trumps everyone else's, people are concentrating on their me-time, they loathe their body, they are there hitting things so they don't take work stress out in their kids, and so on. It's not (except for specialized gyms) a particularly socially rich environment.
Like Ruthless Bunny said, you get to decide how you operate.
You don't always need to assert yourself. I would recommend that if you're working on moving from apologetic (or whatever) to assertive, you not choose to test your new skills in areas like buses, gyms, parks, but spaces where people are more committed to ongoing relationships. Once you are more secure in your social awareness then you can decide if policing gym etiquette is good for your day or not.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:51 AM on January 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
You seem really focused on figuring out norms and who is in the right. I get the urge. But really, the end goal is, how can you use the gym, one, and two, is this guy dangerous to you or others.
People are not at the gym to teach you social norms or be your testing ground. They are there to work out.
I would say that at a lot of gyms I've patronized, people are very much in their own headspaces. How this played out is unusual; it's not a norm that people will have an agreement on.
So, for the gym...it actually sounds to me like the gym staff took your concerns seriously and that your safety and continued patronage was a concern. I do think gyms should be spaces where people do not have to be worried about being called names and so on. At your meeting, if you go ahead with it, I would express your concerns that you want to feel safe and not be threatened. I wouldn't try to argue with citations...they're a business, they probably also care about people's safety and comfort, so you agree on these things. You are looking for a solution, not a decision on who is right.
I think to decide whether it is really an ongoing problem regardless, you have to go back and see if all the guys use this language and means of interaction. I don't think a meeting is going to help you in this. You'll have to try it out. (Or get a refund and join a different gym.)
I think by touching the guy's stuff you violated social norms first. His response was over the top and not okay, but if you were on public transit and someone's bag was on a seat and you moved it, you would probably recognize that -- even though it's a jerk move for someone to block a seat with their bag, touching it is an aggressive way to handle it, and making it a "respect" issue was escalating it. So you are the jerk in his mind. Whether he cools down or not is something you don't know yet.
People are both inadvertent and deliberate jerks all the time at the gym. They don't wipe things down, some people seem to believe their need for whatever trumps everyone else's, people are concentrating on their me-time, they loathe their body, they are there hitting things so they don't take work stress out in their kids, and so on. It's not (except for specialized gyms) a particularly socially rich environment.
Like Ruthless Bunny said, you get to decide how you operate.
You don't always need to assert yourself. I would recommend that if you're working on moving from apologetic (or whatever) to assertive, you not choose to test your new skills in areas like buses, gyms, parks, but spaces where people are more committed to ongoing relationships. Once you are more secure in your social awareness then you can decide if policing gym etiquette is good for your day or not.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:51 AM on January 10, 2016 [9 favorites]
Don't want to get into too much cross-talk here, but gay men can be macho too. So can women, for that matter. Macho just means being confrontational in order to pump up your ego, for whatever reason. The OP had no reason to believe the guy in this scenario was a jerk before this incident took place, but he moved the guy's stuff without asking, which is an aggressive thing to do. As it turned out, the guy was a jerk and said a bunch of terrible things. But what if he had been a perfectly nice normal guy who made a mistake? Then it's the OP who is moving someone else's stuff without politely asking or clarifying that he wasn't done with the equipment. This would have taken 5 seconds of effort, tops. "Hey man, sorry, I still have a few reps left, mind if I move your bag? I appreciate it." That's not supplicating to a homophobic establishment, that's just common courtesy. This tells me a lot about the OP's demeanor, at least within this context.
With aggressive, confrontational people, I often find that they will wait for an invitation to be confrontational. Once they find someone else who initiates the conflict, then they lay into them, figuring you're game for a fight. That's why it's always best to be polite in mixed company. You just don't know who you're dealing with. Don't flip people off on the expressway, don't jokingly hit on someone else's partner, and don't touch other people's stuff.
posted by deathpanels at 10:21 AM on January 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
With aggressive, confrontational people, I often find that they will wait for an invitation to be confrontational. Once they find someone else who initiates the conflict, then they lay into them, figuring you're game for a fight. That's why it's always best to be polite in mixed company. You just don't know who you're dealing with. Don't flip people off on the expressway, don't jokingly hit on someone else's partner, and don't touch other people's stuff.
posted by deathpanels at 10:21 AM on January 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
Like asking him before moving his bag, it is your Constitutional and moral right to not apologize to someone who tried to slug you. However, like asking him before moving his bag, apologizing to him may accomplish your desired goal.
posted by value of information at 9:41 PM on January 10, 2016
posted by value of information at 9:41 PM on January 10, 2016
Yeah, I think "oh hey, sorry, I'm actually still using that" is a fine response. If it helps, mentally expand "sorry" in this context as more like "sorry this is a little awkward," as opposed to "sorry I did something wrong."
I do think you might benefit from reading about and practicing assertiveness, because while I totally understand where you're coming from here and why you were particularly not having his BS, I do think how you responded probably came off as kind of aggressive and/or brittle. There's one assertiveness technique I'm reminded of, in contrast, where the gist is that you first find some point of agreement with whatever criticism is coming your way, and then restate the thing you need. People call the first bit "fogging" or "clouding" sometimes — I think I first read about it in "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty."
So in response to "ask before you touch my stuff, that's disrespectful," if you were to use fogging, you could say something like "Oh, okay, I didn't mean to be disrespectful [agreeing], I just moved it because I'm not done with my set. [restating the thing you want]" If he then responded, "yeah well I'm telling you, don't touch my stuff" you could maybe respond with something like "Okay, next time I'll ask you, [agreeing] and I'll let you know when I'm done with my set. [restating the thing you want]."
"I don't have to do that for you," in contrast, may have been completely true, but socially, it doesn't leave him a graceful way out except "through" you, so to speak. Agreeing, even partially or in principle, lets him plausibly save face. If it helps, think of your role in a potentially explosive scenario like this one as more "managing the situation" than "attempting to prove that you're in the right," as much as you totally were in the right here. Also, maintaining some agreeableness and flexibility in how you respond to difficult people can end up coming off as more confident, not less.
Anyway, I understand your frustration with unexamined dude-bro machismo and you're right that there's absolutely no excuse for how he behaved towards you. I'm sorry he did that, and I'm glad you called him on his use of a slur.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:41 PM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I do think you might benefit from reading about and practicing assertiveness, because while I totally understand where you're coming from here and why you were particularly not having his BS, I do think how you responded probably came off as kind of aggressive and/or brittle. There's one assertiveness technique I'm reminded of, in contrast, where the gist is that you first find some point of agreement with whatever criticism is coming your way, and then restate the thing you need. People call the first bit "fogging" or "clouding" sometimes — I think I first read about it in "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty."
So in response to "ask before you touch my stuff, that's disrespectful," if you were to use fogging, you could say something like "Oh, okay, I didn't mean to be disrespectful [agreeing], I just moved it because I'm not done with my set. [restating the thing you want]" If he then responded, "yeah well I'm telling you, don't touch my stuff" you could maybe respond with something like "Okay, next time I'll ask you, [agreeing] and I'll let you know when I'm done with my set. [restating the thing you want]."
"I don't have to do that for you," in contrast, may have been completely true, but socially, it doesn't leave him a graceful way out except "through" you, so to speak. Agreeing, even partially or in principle, lets him plausibly save face. If it helps, think of your role in a potentially explosive scenario like this one as more "managing the situation" than "attempting to prove that you're in the right," as much as you totally were in the right here. Also, maintaining some agreeableness and flexibility in how you respond to difficult people can end up coming off as more confident, not less.
Anyway, I understand your frustration with unexamined dude-bro machismo and you're right that there's absolutely no excuse for how he behaved towards you. I'm sorry he did that, and I'm glad you called him on his use of a slur.
posted by en forme de poire at 11:41 PM on January 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
May I suggest a book called "When I Say No, I Feel Guilty," a masterpiece of assertiveness training. That is the place to start.
I am better at this stuff, and I would have said. "Your shit is in my way. So I moved it." Then when they said something, I would have just repeated that over and over again. The technique is called broken record.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:39 AM on January 11, 2016
I am better at this stuff, and I would have said. "Your shit is in my way. So I moved it." Then when they said something, I would have just repeated that over and over again. The technique is called broken record.
posted by Ironmouth at 9:39 AM on January 11, 2016
When things like this happen, I often find myself faced with two choices: de-escalate the situation or stand up for myself. I have yet to discover a good method to combine those two.
This is a false dichotomy. Looking the person directly in the eye and saying "I'm still using this, do you mind if I move your bag?" both de-escalates the situation and asserts your right to still be using the equipment. Tone of voice used and posture determines whether that question is an actual request or an assertion that you are going to keep using the equipment. There are absolutely ways to both be assertive while de-escalating, and it largely involves combining politeness with confidence and a knowledge of social mores.
posted by Anonymous at 9:22 AM on January 12, 2016
This is a false dichotomy. Looking the person directly in the eye and saying "I'm still using this, do you mind if I move your bag?" both de-escalates the situation and asserts your right to still be using the equipment. Tone of voice used and posture determines whether that question is an actual request or an assertion that you are going to keep using the equipment. There are absolutely ways to both be assertive while de-escalating, and it largely involves combining politeness with confidence and a knowledge of social mores.
posted by Anonymous at 9:22 AM on January 12, 2016
I think there are basically two scenarios for how this might play out:
But honestly, I might also just cut my losses, talk to the gym management and get a refund. I know you shouldn't "have to" do that, but you also don't want going to the gym to be a big psychologically-aversive thing and if you have other good options near you, it may be the best option in terms of practical self-care.
posted by en forme de poire at 3:13 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
- Dude is actually pretty embarrassed about how he acted, avoids you or apologizes to you the next time you see him (not impossible based on what you've said here, I think)
- Dude is holding a huge grudge and tries to further intimidate you the next time you see him (sadly also not impossible)
But honestly, I might also just cut my losses, talk to the gym management and get a refund. I know you shouldn't "have to" do that, but you also don't want going to the gym to be a big psychologically-aversive thing and if you have other good options near you, it may be the best option in terms of practical self-care.
posted by en forme de poire at 3:13 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
Not to say you shouldn't take martial arts or whatever, just that you should conduct yourself so as to make self-defense less likely to be necessary in the first place.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:11 PM on January 9, 2016 [55 favorites]