Help me get along with my Chinese neighbors
December 31, 2015 8:10 AM Subscribe
I live in a very diverse neighborhood - it’s probably 1/3 N-th generation white, 1/3 Chinese*, and 1/3 other recent immigrants. It’s working class, with a lot of large, packed together houses, and multi-generational housing arrangements. My husband and I (Nth-generation whites) have been having trouble interacting with our Chinese neighbors, and it’s making my husband want to move out of our neighborhood. I love our neighborhood, and would like to keep the option open to stay long term.
We don’t actually want that much from a neighborly relationship – just to pleasantly communicate about things like returning wind-swept trashcans, or not blocking my driveway when parking. I’m happy do little positive things like make pleasant small talk or shoveling out the local elderly people, but obviously I’m okay not doing that if it’s not wanted. The issue is that whenever we try to talk to our Chinese neighbors, they act almost afraid, and practically run away, while signaling “no! no!”. This isn't just one odd family - it's a pattern. It’s super weird and making me a little bit bitter, since now we can’t avoid minor annoyances. This is not an issue with our other neighbors, including other East Asian recent immigrants.
I don’t have similar problems with the Chinese immigrants I know personally – but the people I know socially are more middle class, often highly educated, and are comfortable speaking English. My neighbors are definitely more working class, and might not interact with outsiders at work. I also haven’t had a similar problem with other people who aren’t great at speaking English – I’m happy to point and gesture so that the meaning gets across even if all the words don’t. My husband and I are not generally considered terrifying in appearance or actions.
Things that I have thought of and ruled out include: communicating through their children (hasn’t worked out so far); learning move from a community center/Church (there doesn’t seem to be a centralized group like some of the other immigrant communities in my town); and realistically, I’m not going to learn another language.
I’d love to get some perspective on what’s going on, and suggestions of things I can change - especially from people with a first hand perspective.
*To clarify, when I say Chinese, I actually mean “people who use Chinese characters”. I don’t know if my neighbors identify as Chinese. It's very possible that my neighbors come from different places - local businesses that cater to this community often list 3 or 4 dialects that they speak.
We don’t actually want that much from a neighborly relationship – just to pleasantly communicate about things like returning wind-swept trashcans, or not blocking my driveway when parking. I’m happy do little positive things like make pleasant small talk or shoveling out the local elderly people, but obviously I’m okay not doing that if it’s not wanted. The issue is that whenever we try to talk to our Chinese neighbors, they act almost afraid, and practically run away, while signaling “no! no!”. This isn't just one odd family - it's a pattern. It’s super weird and making me a little bit bitter, since now we can’t avoid minor annoyances. This is not an issue with our other neighbors, including other East Asian recent immigrants.
I don’t have similar problems with the Chinese immigrants I know personally – but the people I know socially are more middle class, often highly educated, and are comfortable speaking English. My neighbors are definitely more working class, and might not interact with outsiders at work. I also haven’t had a similar problem with other people who aren’t great at speaking English – I’m happy to point and gesture so that the meaning gets across even if all the words don’t. My husband and I are not generally considered terrifying in appearance or actions.
Things that I have thought of and ruled out include: communicating through their children (hasn’t worked out so far); learning move from a community center/Church (there doesn’t seem to be a centralized group like some of the other immigrant communities in my town); and realistically, I’m not going to learn another language.
I’d love to get some perspective on what’s going on, and suggestions of things I can change - especially from people with a first hand perspective.
*To clarify, when I say Chinese, I actually mean “people who use Chinese characters”. I don’t know if my neighbors identify as Chinese. It's very possible that my neighbors come from different places - local businesses that cater to this community often list 3 or 4 dialects that they speak.
Our neighborhoods sound incredibly similar from a cultural perspective except I'm on the west coast. My neighbors who are from China and other Asian countries, while we have a language barrier, are friendly and smile and wave back when I see them, though we don't really talk because we don't share a language. That isn't to say they don't keep to themselves, they do, but I have not experienced the fear you seem to have encountered. I'm not suggesting you are doing anything wrong, just suggesting maybe there is something going on there you didn't cause.
posted by cecic at 8:33 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cecic at 8:33 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I would assume this is due to a generalized fear of interaction with people with whom they do not share a common language.
I think I'd take the "you catch more flies with honey" approach. Start giving them food. Seriously. Like buy extra oranges and give them a few, or make extra cookies and deliver a box, or even just little candies that they can regift.
Once they understand you're approaching from a place of friendliness, they may be more open to gesture-based communication.
posted by samthemander at 8:50 AM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think I'd take the "you catch more flies with honey" approach. Start giving them food. Seriously. Like buy extra oranges and give them a few, or make extra cookies and deliver a box, or even just little candies that they can regift.
Once they understand you're approaching from a place of friendliness, they may be more open to gesture-based communication.
posted by samthemander at 8:50 AM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
Learn a few words of Chinese. In Chine we were ignored by older Chinese until we said "Hello, how are you" to them in Chinese, "knee how" or "knee how ma" (that and the phrase for "Thank You" got us so many bright smiles from people who initially looked like they wished we would disappear.)
Better still. take a class in Chinese.
posted by leafwoman at 9:00 AM on December 31, 2015 [10 favorites]
Better still. take a class in Chinese.
posted by leafwoman at 9:00 AM on December 31, 2015 [10 favorites]
Could you please elaborate on why your husband feels that this situation is so terrible that the only solution is to move out of your neighborhood?
Have you considered that assuming your neighbors are Chinese without doing a bit of research to check = stereotyping/racism?
Could it be that you've unwittingly alienated them through some subconscious prejudices (such as assuming they're Chinese when in actuality they're Korean, Thai, Philipino, etc, or assuming they don't have contact with "outsiders" because of their working class status?)
Additionally, if they have to learn your language, why is it so unrealistic for you to learn a little of theirs once you figure out which language is native to their family?
I ask these things because some of what you seem to be asserting here feels off to me, and I'm wondering if maybe you have offended or intimidated your neighbors but don't think you have because you aren't aware that what you're doing is offensive/intimidating. Obviously I could be totally wrong, but it might be something to consider all the same.
posted by Hermione Granger at 9:23 AM on December 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
Have you considered that assuming your neighbors are Chinese without doing a bit of research to check = stereotyping/racism?
Could it be that you've unwittingly alienated them through some subconscious prejudices (such as assuming they're Chinese when in actuality they're Korean, Thai, Philipino, etc, or assuming they don't have contact with "outsiders" because of their working class status?)
Additionally, if they have to learn your language, why is it so unrealistic for you to learn a little of theirs once you figure out which language is native to their family?
I ask these things because some of what you seem to be asserting here feels off to me, and I'm wondering if maybe you have offended or intimidated your neighbors but don't think you have because you aren't aware that what you're doing is offensive/intimidating. Obviously I could be totally wrong, but it might be something to consider all the same.
posted by Hermione Granger at 9:23 AM on December 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
How did you both interact with these neighbors when you or they first moved in? My family (Chinese) get along very well with our duplex neighbors who are Peurto Rican and since I can remember we've exchanged food around the holidays or whenever they or we are celebrating something. The suggestions to give some food would be good. My younger sibilings in particular have pretty good chats with our neighbors so I'm not sure why talking to their kids isn't working (unless they're very young, my brothers are over 18).
And Chinese characters...are you sure they're Chinese characters or something just foreign looking? Sorry to have to ask but sometimes people don't really understand origin and all that. My parents and I were born in Vietnam, and I certainly have a lot of Viet friends who have parents who hang up stuff with Chinese calligraphy but don't speak Mandarin, Cantonese or the other dialects.
Seconding Hermione Granger.
posted by driedmango at 9:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
And Chinese characters...are you sure they're Chinese characters or something just foreign looking? Sorry to have to ask but sometimes people don't really understand origin and all that. My parents and I were born in Vietnam, and I certainly have a lot of Viet friends who have parents who hang up stuff with Chinese calligraphy but don't speak Mandarin, Cantonese or the other dialects.
Seconding Hermione Granger.
posted by driedmango at 9:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Lunar New Year is February 8, 2016. That seems like a perfect opportunity to leave a small card and gift on the porches of your neighbors. Given the diversity of your neighborhood you can probably find a grocery store that stocks a lot of Asian foods, treats, and cards that would make appropriate gifts.
And here are some instructions on how to say Happy New Year in Cantonese and Mandarin.
posted by brookeb at 9:58 AM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
And here are some instructions on how to say Happy New Year in Cantonese and Mandarin.
posted by brookeb at 9:58 AM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
Does it have to be a cultural thing? As you mentioned, you don't have this problem in your interactions with other Asian minorities, so why assume that this is happening because they are Asian?
Maybe they're refugees who fled violence, even long ago. I know my dad's birth family fled a war back in the 40s and those family members have always been a little strange because of it. Even now their reactions to what I see as simple social interactions are out of the range of "normal".
Maybe they have a mental illness, even a "mild" one like social anxiety. White people aren't the only ones who suffer from these.
Maybe they're just weird. I have lived by many an awkward neighbor of all different colors. Again, it's not only "old white dude" who can be a weird loner living next to you.
I guess I'm also not sure why your husband wants to move because sometimes your neighbors' trash cans are blocking your driveway. It's kinda a thing that happens. Personally I would take neighbors who don't want to interact and keep quietly to themselves over the opposite situation.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:16 AM on December 31, 2015 [16 favorites]
Maybe they're refugees who fled violence, even long ago. I know my dad's birth family fled a war back in the 40s and those family members have always been a little strange because of it. Even now their reactions to what I see as simple social interactions are out of the range of "normal".
Maybe they have a mental illness, even a "mild" one like social anxiety. White people aren't the only ones who suffer from these.
Maybe they're just weird. I have lived by many an awkward neighbor of all different colors. Again, it's not only "old white dude" who can be a weird loner living next to you.
I guess I'm also not sure why your husband wants to move because sometimes your neighbors' trash cans are blocking your driveway. It's kinda a thing that happens. Personally I would take neighbors who don't want to interact and keep quietly to themselves over the opposite situation.
posted by chainsofreedom at 10:16 AM on December 31, 2015 [16 favorites]
Nthing that there are basic assumptions that could be directly contributing to the issue.
I'll illustrate from my own life, hopefully this can make it more directly relatable. I have a very English-sounding last name, shared with a well-known English author. I live in France now. Many people, while knowing I'm American, assume my family is from England. Some people take weeks before asking or even leaving an opening for me to say where my family is actually from. Some of these people invent an entire backstory for me: "the American with an English family who probably has a house in Provence and that's why she speaks French so well." Seriously. This happens often enough I've become accustomed to this imagined backstory. The problem is, it's extremely alienating because rather than allow me to talk about my actual background, the assumptions keep piling up, people tease me about things I don't even understand, that they've assumed about England, then they laugh when I try to redirect it to my actual background, without listening to me. After a few months it reaches a point where, in exasperation, I just no longer speak to them about anything beyond bare essentials.
It might feel uncomfortable at first, but if you just approach them with a "hello, how are you? I'm sorry we didn't get to know you earlier. How long have you been here? How do you like the neighborhood?" and let them lead you to more questions, you're very likely to find out what's important to them about their identity. Or, at the very least, that they really just don't want to chat.
When people ask me about my background, I'm able to tell them my family name was Anglicized by my Norwegian paternal grandfather, and that two of my other grandparents are Irish. The fourth was Dutch. There's not a drop of English ancestry in me for the hundreds of years of genealogical records our families have. England and Ireland have a rather antagonistic history, to say the least. My ancestors left Ireland to escape the persecution of the English that I'm now assumed to be, and though my generation is removed from that, it's still part of my living family history. Imagine that happening with other places and more recent history; it's pretty common.
posted by fraula at 10:23 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'll illustrate from my own life, hopefully this can make it more directly relatable. I have a very English-sounding last name, shared with a well-known English author. I live in France now. Many people, while knowing I'm American, assume my family is from England. Some people take weeks before asking or even leaving an opening for me to say where my family is actually from. Some of these people invent an entire backstory for me: "the American with an English family who probably has a house in Provence and that's why she speaks French so well." Seriously. This happens often enough I've become accustomed to this imagined backstory. The problem is, it's extremely alienating because rather than allow me to talk about my actual background, the assumptions keep piling up, people tease me about things I don't even understand, that they've assumed about England, then they laugh when I try to redirect it to my actual background, without listening to me. After a few months it reaches a point where, in exasperation, I just no longer speak to them about anything beyond bare essentials.
It might feel uncomfortable at first, but if you just approach them with a "hello, how are you? I'm sorry we didn't get to know you earlier. How long have you been here? How do you like the neighborhood?" and let them lead you to more questions, you're very likely to find out what's important to them about their identity. Or, at the very least, that they really just don't want to chat.
When people ask me about my background, I'm able to tell them my family name was Anglicized by my Norwegian paternal grandfather, and that two of my other grandparents are Irish. The fourth was Dutch. There's not a drop of English ancestry in me for the hundreds of years of genealogical records our families have. England and Ireland have a rather antagonistic history, to say the least. My ancestors left Ireland to escape the persecution of the English that I'm now assumed to be, and though my generation is removed from that, it's still part of my living family history. Imagine that happening with other places and more recent history; it's pretty common.
posted by fraula at 10:23 AM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
How about (slowly) teaching each other some words from your respective languages? Learn the words for a couple of things you can point to when you encounter your neighbors to get the idea across, then you could point to something else, say the English word for it, and have them tell you its name, and so on.
posted by Baeria at 10:34 AM on December 31, 2015
posted by Baeria at 10:34 AM on December 31, 2015
Response by poster: Fair enough, HG. My question is essentially a racist one - wanting to behave in the best possible way is the main reason I'm asking. Right now, I have more pleasant interactions with other neighbors, and I'd like to tilt that balance (we aren't having loads of negative interactions, to be clear. More avoidance). I feel like I'm getting stuck at the first step.
I tried to make it clear that I'm using "Chinese" as short hand for "consumer of Chinese characters", which look different to me than Thai/Korean/Japanese. Absolutely true that they could be incidentally using them. It's maybe better to focus on my neighbors as individuals, like Fraula said.
I like the idea of learning a few phrases - can anyone guide me to how much dialect matters? I was under the impression it was more like how Romance languages are similar but distinct. Will "knee how" or "knee how ma" work? Phrases or best practices for complementing landscaping/gardening/pets might also be an easy-in.
Husband deals with more of our neighbor relations, because he does more of the outfacing stuff. We will be moving in the next few years regardless (we rent), and this neighborhood suits me better than him for other, unrelated reasons. I totally get that there are way worse neighbor situations.
posted by fermezporte at 10:53 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
I tried to make it clear that I'm using "Chinese" as short hand for "consumer of Chinese characters", which look different to me than Thai/Korean/Japanese. Absolutely true that they could be incidentally using them. It's maybe better to focus on my neighbors as individuals, like Fraula said.
I like the idea of learning a few phrases - can anyone guide me to how much dialect matters? I was under the impression it was more like how Romance languages are similar but distinct. Will "knee how" or "knee how ma" work? Phrases or best practices for complementing landscaping/gardening/pets might also be an easy-in.
Husband deals with more of our neighbor relations, because he does more of the outfacing stuff. We will be moving in the next few years regardless (we rent), and this neighborhood suits me better than him for other, unrelated reasons. I totally get that there are way worse neighbor situations.
posted by fermezporte at 10:53 AM on December 31, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: Among my Chinese family members, top reasons for not really engaging with white neighbors was:
1. When you're an immigrant living in a country where the everyday language isn't what your mother tongue, everyday life can be exhausting and scary. Even speaking a little more English is a burden, especially for Chinese folks like mine, who are working class here, but were considered educated professionals back home. They're embarrassed about their accents, and tired of dealing with the dealing with the shit even well-intentioned Americans pull about English. (For example, the way a lot of white people flinch when the accent that comes out of somebody's mouth is strongly accented in a not-Western way, and how that makes most Americans assume the person isn't fluent/is less familiar with English than they actually are.)
2. Most of my family are more relaxed about it now, but back in the day, they were scared of any white person who came up to them and made small talk because of the risk of deportation, or because they were worried about Child Services coming to investigate them. There were always a lot of rumors were afraid that any white person who came up to them and made small chat was an undercover immigration or CHS. Even if the person you're talking to has a secure immigration status, or doesn't have kids, they probably have family members/friends/tenants who are vulnerable.
3. Semi-legal living situations. Not saying this is what is going on here, but back in the day, my dad and like, six other Chinese dudes lived in an apartment rented out as a 1B. They were told not to interact with their (mostly white) neighbors because the landlord didn't want it getting out how many people were living there.
On practical solutions, baking them Christmas cookies is actually a pretty good idea, even if it's a little late now. However, you may get the situation where they feel like they have to give you a gift back, because that's how Chinese people work. But that still opens up a dialogue. Alternatively, you can always bake something and just take it on over, explaining that you made too much and just wanted to share. Or keep shoveling for any old Chinese neighbors who don't have young ones around to shovel/help the young ones out with shoveling. Alternatively, if you have any immigrant grandparents or anything, even if you weren't particularly close, taking over a family recipe of a traditional treat could do wonders.
(Side note: I'd be hesitant about taking them oranges for Lunar New Year for a couple reasons. Chinese people can be really picky about fruit, particularly fruit given as a gift at New Year's, where it's given because one of the words for oranges is a homophone for "luck." Consequently, by giving oranges, you're giving luck, and you don't want to give someone blemished/substandard luck, do you? It's kinda insulting -- not at a neighborhood vendetta level insulting, but more of a "sigh, clueless white people think they know Chiense people" level. My mother has some choice, hilarious words about the ability of your average white person to pick out good fruit.
I'd also be hesitant of trying to engage them in teaching you Chinese. These are people with lives. They may not want to have language lessons with some rando white person -- it's just more shit they have to deal with.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [84 favorites]
1. When you're an immigrant living in a country where the everyday language isn't what your mother tongue, everyday life can be exhausting and scary. Even speaking a little more English is a burden, especially for Chinese folks like mine, who are working class here, but were considered educated professionals back home. They're embarrassed about their accents, and tired of dealing with the dealing with the shit even well-intentioned Americans pull about English. (For example, the way a lot of white people flinch when the accent that comes out of somebody's mouth is strongly accented in a not-Western way, and how that makes most Americans assume the person isn't fluent/is less familiar with English than they actually are.)
2. Most of my family are more relaxed about it now, but back in the day, they were scared of any white person who came up to them and made small talk because of the risk of deportation, or because they were worried about Child Services coming to investigate them. There were always a lot of rumors were afraid that any white person who came up to them and made small chat was an undercover immigration or CHS. Even if the person you're talking to has a secure immigration status, or doesn't have kids, they probably have family members/friends/tenants who are vulnerable.
3. Semi-legal living situations. Not saying this is what is going on here, but back in the day, my dad and like, six other Chinese dudes lived in an apartment rented out as a 1B. They were told not to interact with their (mostly white) neighbors because the landlord didn't want it getting out how many people were living there.
On practical solutions, baking them Christmas cookies is actually a pretty good idea, even if it's a little late now. However, you may get the situation where they feel like they have to give you a gift back, because that's how Chinese people work. But that still opens up a dialogue. Alternatively, you can always bake something and just take it on over, explaining that you made too much and just wanted to share. Or keep shoveling for any old Chinese neighbors who don't have young ones around to shovel/help the young ones out with shoveling. Alternatively, if you have any immigrant grandparents or anything, even if you weren't particularly close, taking over a family recipe of a traditional treat could do wonders.
(Side note: I'd be hesitant about taking them oranges for Lunar New Year for a couple reasons. Chinese people can be really picky about fruit, particularly fruit given as a gift at New Year's, where it's given because one of the words for oranges is a homophone for "luck." Consequently, by giving oranges, you're giving luck, and you don't want to give someone blemished/substandard luck, do you? It's kinda insulting -- not at a neighborhood vendetta level insulting, but more of a "sigh, clueless white people think they know Chiense people" level. My mother has some choice, hilarious words about the ability of your average white person to pick out good fruit.
I'd also be hesitant of trying to engage them in teaching you Chinese. These are people with lives. They may not want to have language lessons with some rando white person -- it's just more shit they have to deal with.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:56 AM on December 31, 2015 [84 favorites]
I like the idea of learning a few phrases - can anyone guide me to how much dialect matters? I was under the impression it was more like how Romance languages are similar but distinct. Will "knee how" or "knee how ma" work? Phrases or best practices for complementing landscaping/gardening/pets might also be an easy-in.
The dialects are fairly distinct, though probably not as distinct as Romance languages, because Chinese doesn't have grammar in the same way, so you don't get those kinds of formal distinctions between, say, Hokka and Cantonese.
However, knee how ma is Putonghua/Mandarin. Pretty much everybody who is fluent in Chinese understands it to some degree, mostly because it's the main dialect in use in both the People's Republic and Taiwan and lots of Chinese immigrants speak it these days. People will also recognize that phrase even with how poorly most speakers of non-tonal language do it without a lot of practice and correction.
Please note, though, that assuming any given Chinese person speaks Putonghua/Mandarin might not be correct. It's probably less of a faux pas these days than it was 30 years ago when there was a lot of emigration from places that didn't speak as much and where sometimes that distinction was sociopolitically fraught -- but yeah. Fraula's advice about treating your neighbors as individuals is a good idea.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:07 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
The dialects are fairly distinct, though probably not as distinct as Romance languages, because Chinese doesn't have grammar in the same way, so you don't get those kinds of formal distinctions between, say, Hokka and Cantonese.
However, knee how ma is Putonghua/Mandarin. Pretty much everybody who is fluent in Chinese understands it to some degree, mostly because it's the main dialect in use in both the People's Republic and Taiwan and lots of Chinese immigrants speak it these days. People will also recognize that phrase even with how poorly most speakers of non-tonal language do it without a lot of practice and correction.
Please note, though, that assuming any given Chinese person speaks Putonghua/Mandarin might not be correct. It's probably less of a faux pas these days than it was 30 years ago when there was a lot of emigration from places that didn't speak as much and where sometimes that distinction was sociopolitically fraught -- but yeah. Fraula's advice about treating your neighbors as individuals is a good idea.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:07 AM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
You mentioned parking across your driveway - are they doing that? Because if they're keeping to themselves and not bothering anyone, I think the kindest thing you can do is just to leave them alone. It isn't their job to make you and your husband feel comfortable with their presence in the neighbourhood, and it sounds like your advances are making them actively uncomfortable. I'm not sure why you don't just leave them alone already and interact with your other neighbours who seem more open to that. I know you feel like you're just trying to be nice, but actually being nice involves taking your cues from other people rather than pushing your idea of niceness on them.
posted by hazyjane at 11:39 AM on December 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by hazyjane at 11:39 AM on December 31, 2015 [23 favorites]
I only want to add that you please confirm that they are indeed Chinese before approaching them with ni hao. This could come off wildly offensive if they're not. I am Chinese and I don't even like it when people make that assumption without actually knowing my ethnicity.
posted by monologish at 11:44 AM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by monologish at 11:44 AM on December 31, 2015 [6 favorites]
There's a segment kinda related to this in MTV's recent White People documentary (the link should skip to 33:09). Aimed at young people, and doesn't go in depth, but it does have to do with working class Chinese immigrants being non-communicative, and accepting that this is just part of a transitional period in a strange, often hostile (or hostile-seeming) new country that all immigrants go through. You shouldn't let it put you off or feel like there's anything specific you need to do. joyceanmachine put it very well, consider this additional affirmation of that.
posted by naju at 12:30 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by naju at 12:30 PM on December 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sometimes being a good neighbour means leaving others alone.
posted by ageispolis at 12:39 PM on December 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by ageispolis at 12:39 PM on December 31, 2015 [22 favorites]
An anecdote: my friend was a canvasser for an NGO in Vancouver. His beat was the wasteland of monster houses occupied during the day mostly by older Chinese women. He'd buzz the intercom, begin his spiel and hear "no, no!" or nothing at all. Doors rarely opened. He told me, "I'm starting to feel really racist, here... why are they so hostile?"
Then he decided to learn a few phrases in their language, beginning with "hello." Before long, he was one of the top-earning canvassers. It turned out, all they really wanted to hear were some friendly words in their own language. Sure enough, the doors opened wide. He went on to become an English teacher in Asia.
[Note: I don't know how or whether he figured out which language was theirs. Just that it worked, somehow.]
posted by klanawa at 12:39 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Then he decided to learn a few phrases in their language, beginning with "hello." Before long, he was one of the top-earning canvassers. It turned out, all they really wanted to hear were some friendly words in their own language. Sure enough, the doors opened wide. He went on to become an English teacher in Asia.
[Note: I don't know how or whether he figured out which language was theirs. Just that it worked, somehow.]
posted by klanawa at 12:39 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Please leave them alone. They've given you strong indications they want you to pretend you don't see them, they want you to stay out of their way. That's fine.
I'm white and I lived in two neighborhoods like this - once in NYC and once in LA.
Eventually, many years from now, some of your neighbors might maybe acknowledge you. Most maybe never will. That's totally not a problem. Of course continue to make eye contact or smile at folks, and accept it when folks don't return the sentiment.
That said... if your husband wants a different experience in the neighborhood he lives in, it's valid to sell and move. If you can be happy while folks around you are unabashedly indifferent towards you, it can be great. It never bothered me, and the second time it was like living in a foreign country without the hassle of a visa. I adored learning about the culture around me. OTOH, it is a drag, say, having children and not feeling welcome in your community.
That's the breakdown. It was fine in my 20's and early 30's. With young children in the picture? Nope.
posted by jbenben at 3:20 PM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm white and I lived in two neighborhoods like this - once in NYC and once in LA.
Eventually, many years from now, some of your neighbors might maybe acknowledge you. Most maybe never will. That's totally not a problem. Of course continue to make eye contact or smile at folks, and accept it when folks don't return the sentiment.
That said... if your husband wants a different experience in the neighborhood he lives in, it's valid to sell and move. If you can be happy while folks around you are unabashedly indifferent towards you, it can be great. It never bothered me, and the second time it was like living in a foreign country without the hassle of a visa. I adored learning about the culture around me. OTOH, it is a drag, say, having children and not feeling welcome in your community.
That's the breakdown. It was fine in my 20's and early 30's. With young children in the picture? Nope.
posted by jbenben at 3:20 PM on December 31, 2015 [5 favorites]
All OP wants to do is minimally communicate with their neighbors:
We don’t actually want that much from a neighborly relationship – just to pleasantly communicate about things like returning wind-swept trashcans, or not blocking my driveway when parking.
What are they supposed to do when someone blocks their driveway? I guess the only option at this time is to call the cops which sucks all around.
OP, is there a neighborhood association or council person that you could ask for help in communicating with these folks? Or an acquaintance from the same culture that could act on your behalf?
Good luck.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
We don’t actually want that much from a neighborly relationship – just to pleasantly communicate about things like returning wind-swept trashcans, or not blocking my driveway when parking.
What are they supposed to do when someone blocks their driveway? I guess the only option at this time is to call the cops which sucks all around.
OP, is there a neighborhood association or council person that you could ask for help in communicating with these folks? Or an acquaintance from the same culture that could act on your behalf?
Good luck.
posted by futz at 4:11 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is very difficult to answer because of how little you know about these people. For perspective, even if you had written "Chinese" to mean, "They waved PRC passports at me," that narrows it down to 1.3 billion people. The question would be roughly equivalent to, "Please help me with my difficult neighbors, whom I think are from Europe or maybe the New World."
Your follow-up about learning a few phrases of Chinese is easier to answer. The dialects of Chinese are largely unintelligible, so for conversation it greatly matters which you learn. Also, I'm pessimistic about how much effort it will take to produce anything recognizable if you're starting from English. There are very few shared phonemes, and English has nothing even close to the tone system. This really does not seem like a promising approach, especially if your goal is to negotiate parking and you plan to put in any amount of effort reasonable for that goal.
posted by d. z. wang at 4:51 PM on December 31, 2015
Your follow-up about learning a few phrases of Chinese is easier to answer. The dialects of Chinese are largely unintelligible, so for conversation it greatly matters which you learn. Also, I'm pessimistic about how much effort it will take to produce anything recognizable if you're starting from English. There are very few shared phonemes, and English has nothing even close to the tone system. This really does not seem like a promising approach, especially if your goal is to negotiate parking and you plan to put in any amount of effort reasonable for that goal.
posted by d. z. wang at 4:51 PM on December 31, 2015
I guess one thing I don't understand about this question is how much emphasis you're putting on their ethnicity. Sure, what you see as a social faux pas may partly stem from a cultural difference, but you said yourself that you have other Asian friends who have not reacted this way.
For some reason, they are having a fear reaction to you and your husband. This likely has nothing to do with their ethnicity, nor with anything you two are doing. Your question seems well meaning and I'm sure you're nice people but I'm confused about the repeated emphasis on their ethnicity. Why is it so important?
They are frightened. I would approach this similar to how I'd approach a fearful child. Give them space. Smile at them but don't push the interaction. Just keep smiling and give it time. With time, you can try other kind gesture, like giving them a small gift (like a baked good) or learning a phrase in their language. Take slow, careful steps here, though. They are reacting to factors outside of your control and they are likely dealing with something difficult. Don't make this harder. Take this very slowly. Forget their ethnicity and just treat them like people who are genuinely frightened.
You could try making them a small baked good and leave it outside their door with a note saying "from (your apt number)". It's a nice gesture, and you wouldn't have to stress them out by approaching them.
posted by Amy93 at 4:59 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
For some reason, they are having a fear reaction to you and your husband. This likely has nothing to do with their ethnicity, nor with anything you two are doing. Your question seems well meaning and I'm sure you're nice people but I'm confused about the repeated emphasis on their ethnicity. Why is it so important?
They are frightened. I would approach this similar to how I'd approach a fearful child. Give them space. Smile at them but don't push the interaction. Just keep smiling and give it time. With time, you can try other kind gesture, like giving them a small gift (like a baked good) or learning a phrase in their language. Take slow, careful steps here, though. They are reacting to factors outside of your control and they are likely dealing with something difficult. Don't make this harder. Take this very slowly. Forget their ethnicity and just treat them like people who are genuinely frightened.
You could try making them a small baked good and leave it outside their door with a note saying "from (your apt number)". It's a nice gesture, and you wouldn't have to stress them out by approaching them.
posted by Amy93 at 4:59 PM on December 31, 2015 [3 favorites]
I dithered over sending this next bit, because it sounds accusatory and judgmental and I don't mean it like that. Crossing a culture gap is difficult and it's entirely rational for you not to do that work when there is probably very little downside to not doing it. I don't think you should feel bad about it and I don't claim you have any obligation to change it. I only point this out in case you had this misconception and were drawing incorrect conclusions from it.
I don’t have similar problems with the Chinese immigrants I know personally – but the people I know socially are more middle class, often highly educated, and are comfortable speaking English.
If you wrote this as evidence that you don't typically behave in ways that would be considered offensive by Chinese standards, it's not really good evidence. Language competency often brings with it cultural competency. So your unproblematic relationships with English-speaking Chinese immigrants are probably not as much evidence that you are good at interacting with them as evidence that they are good at interacting with you.
posted by d. z. wang at 5:02 PM on December 31, 2015 [14 favorites]
I don’t have similar problems with the Chinese immigrants I know personally – but the people I know socially are more middle class, often highly educated, and are comfortable speaking English.
If you wrote this as evidence that you don't typically behave in ways that would be considered offensive by Chinese standards, it's not really good evidence. Language competency often brings with it cultural competency. So your unproblematic relationships with English-speaking Chinese immigrants are probably not as much evidence that you are good at interacting with them as evidence that they are good at interacting with you.
posted by d. z. wang at 5:02 PM on December 31, 2015 [14 favorites]
Some people have no desire to have a "neighborly" relationship with their next door neighbors. Your Chinese neighbors are simply much more awkward about broadcasting that fact.
In addition to language barriers, basically you and your husband are "strangers" and probably represent all of the possible dangers that are inherent in America. They watch and hear about the news. As far as they're concerned, they don't know whether you're nice family people -- which you don't look like because all the family people they know are Chinese -- or meth dealers/kidnappers/alcoholics/gun enthusiasts. Many immigrants regard America as extraordinarily dangerous. And compared to where they came from, it is, and they don't understand that it is only more dangerous in certain places and that most violence occurs between people who know each other.
Baking cookies could help, but I remember a story of someone from my community who didn't open the door for a neighbor trying to give her a cake because she was warned by her family not to open the door to people she didn't know.
All that said, maybe your husband is right and it's time to move. If you prioritize a more tight knit neighborhood, you may have to accept that those ties are fraying in your community. Also, I don't know what kind of neighborhood you are living in, but maybe you were expecting it to go through a "middle class gentrification" pattern, and instead it's become more of a place that attracts poorer immigrants. And while those are great neighborhoods, if you don't have your "own community" within that neighborhood, it can be lonely.
posted by deanc at 1:05 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
In addition to language barriers, basically you and your husband are "strangers" and probably represent all of the possible dangers that are inherent in America. They watch and hear about the news. As far as they're concerned, they don't know whether you're nice family people -- which you don't look like because all the family people they know are Chinese -- or meth dealers/kidnappers/alcoholics/gun enthusiasts. Many immigrants regard America as extraordinarily dangerous. And compared to where they came from, it is, and they don't understand that it is only more dangerous in certain places and that most violence occurs between people who know each other.
Baking cookies could help, but I remember a story of someone from my community who didn't open the door for a neighbor trying to give her a cake because she was warned by her family not to open the door to people she didn't know.
All that said, maybe your husband is right and it's time to move. If you prioritize a more tight knit neighborhood, you may have to accept that those ties are fraying in your community. Also, I don't know what kind of neighborhood you are living in, but maybe you were expecting it to go through a "middle class gentrification" pattern, and instead it's become more of a place that attracts poorer immigrants. And while those are great neighborhoods, if you don't have your "own community" within that neighborhood, it can be lonely.
posted by deanc at 1:05 PM on January 1, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sorry if this has been mentioned, but how long have you been there for? Sometimes building up enough trust to be neighbourly, especially across cultures, can take time.
I used to live in a neighbourhood which was predominantly another culture. It took a good six months before any of my next-door neighbours would say hello to me, but one family did and we became friends over time following that. I only lived there for a year, but by the end of that I was sorry to say goodbye to them. But even so, that was just one couple on my floor - most of the rest of my block would barely acknowledge my existence even then.
posted by greenish at 6:55 AM on January 4, 2016
I used to live in a neighbourhood which was predominantly another culture. It took a good six months before any of my next-door neighbours would say hello to me, but one family did and we became friends over time following that. I only lived there for a year, but by the end of that I was sorry to say goodbye to them. But even so, that was just one couple on my floor - most of the rest of my block would barely acknowledge my existence even then.
posted by greenish at 6:55 AM on January 4, 2016
I read your question and follow-up several times to see if I could get what the burning need to communicate with your neighbors is. If it is issues like "don't block the driveway", why not just post a sign that says, "do not block driveway"? That's how parking issues are usually handled.
I may be reading more into it but when you say that your husband handles "neighbor relations" it sounds unusual to me because I don't think of having "neighbor relations" to the point that someone is appointed to handle them. Maybe I live on a street full of grumps but me and most of my neighbors seem to like minding their own business and not interacting with each other. With the exception of one of my next-door neighbors, I could not pick anyone on my street out of a police lineup. It seems like you really like being involved with your neighbors to a degree that the "we mind our own business" type of neighbors don't appreciate. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in a neighborhood where neighbors are more involved in each others lives, but this neighborhood isn't it, so if being "neighborly" is a high priority for you, a move needs to be considered.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:43 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
I may be reading more into it but when you say that your husband handles "neighbor relations" it sounds unusual to me because I don't think of having "neighbor relations" to the point that someone is appointed to handle them. Maybe I live on a street full of grumps but me and most of my neighbors seem to like minding their own business and not interacting with each other. With the exception of one of my next-door neighbors, I could not pick anyone on my street out of a police lineup. It seems like you really like being involved with your neighbors to a degree that the "we mind our own business" type of neighbors don't appreciate. There's nothing wrong with wanting to be in a neighborhood where neighbors are more involved in each others lives, but this neighborhood isn't it, so if being "neighborly" is a high priority for you, a move needs to be considered.
posted by Tanizaki at 8:43 AM on January 4, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't know what's making them afraid of you, but can you approach them with a gift of oranges or some other fruit to express your friendliness? Chinese people like fruit; it's what my parents bring to all their friends and relatives.
I would definitely not try to communicate through your children. It's not their job to play telephone, translator messenger pigeon edition, especially when the neighborly relations aren't clear or on smooth terms at the moment.
posted by gemutlichkeit at 8:31 AM on December 31, 2015 [18 favorites]