Offending People Everywhere, No Idea How
December 22, 2015 8:49 PM Subscribe
People think I'm a big b-word. I'd like to change this recurrent situation I'm finding myself in, without pandering or being manic and fake.
People I don't know or interact with much, claim to know that I am 'such a b!tch.' So it must be my mannerisms or the way that I speak. I can't put my finger on it, and I'm tired of hearing it and would like to change whatever it is. My close friends and family don't think I am inconsiderate or a b!tch, so this is a casual interaction thing.
I'm not the type to pander to people or manically smile at strangers, but I definitely hold doors open for people and wait with the elevator, basic courteous things.
I feel like this might have something to do with my sex. Being female, I think there's a certain expectation that we are either 'nice' or 'b tches.' We can't just be decent, and going about our business, or private. We are either super feminine and smiley or we are cold and b tchy. I think it's unfair. If you aren't always smiling, you must be a big b-word. I suppose I can be cynical, and I have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor, but I'm never cruel, nor do I sneer at or say rude things to people. I'm just neutral I suppose. But this apparently isn't enough for people and they never receive me well (until they get to know me, at which point they don't think these things, I've inquired and asked people close to be to be brutally honest). What is this all about, do any other women have these experiences? How can I stop offending everybody?
People I don't know or interact with much, claim to know that I am 'such a b!tch.' So it must be my mannerisms or the way that I speak. I can't put my finger on it, and I'm tired of hearing it and would like to change whatever it is. My close friends and family don't think I am inconsiderate or a b!tch, so this is a casual interaction thing.
I'm not the type to pander to people or manically smile at strangers, but I definitely hold doors open for people and wait with the elevator, basic courteous things.
I feel like this might have something to do with my sex. Being female, I think there's a certain expectation that we are either 'nice' or 'b tches.' We can't just be decent, and going about our business, or private. We are either super feminine and smiley or we are cold and b tchy. I think it's unfair. If you aren't always smiling, you must be a big b-word. I suppose I can be cynical, and I have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor, but I'm never cruel, nor do I sneer at or say rude things to people. I'm just neutral I suppose. But this apparently isn't enough for people and they never receive me well (until they get to know me, at which point they don't think these things, I've inquired and asked people close to be to be brutally honest). What is this all about, do any other women have these experiences? How can I stop offending everybody?
Response by poster: I'm not speaking to these people. I'm not sarcastic or cynical around them, that's with close friends and family. These people are casual contact like I said, hellos and such, passing in hallways, never talking to them.
posted by Avosunspin at 9:13 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Avosunspin at 9:13 PM on December 22, 2015
So it must be my mannerisms or the way that I speak... These people are casual contact like I said, hellos and such, passing in hallways, never talking to them.
It's also possible you have Bitchy Resting Face.
But anyway: why do you care what a bunch of passing strangers think? Not everybody is going to like you. Many people who dislike you will do so for reasons outside your control. So, whatever. That's how adulthood works.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
It's also possible you have Bitchy Resting Face.
But anyway: why do you care what a bunch of passing strangers think? Not everybody is going to like you. Many people who dislike you will do so for reasons outside your control. So, whatever. That's how adulthood works.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
You are definitely not alone. A friend of mine told me, while we were varying degrees of drunk at a mutual friend's wedding, that "when I first met you I thought you were SUCH a BITCH!!!!" (She definitely said it with all those exclamation points. That's how she rolls.) She went on to tell me that now she knows me better and that, if she ever has a daughter, she'd hope her daughter would grow up to be like me and "not take shit from anybody". I'm not really sure her current take on me is actually so much more accurate than her first impression, but it's definitely more flattering. And I haven't changed anything about the way I am in the meantime. Oh, also worth noting, she was introduced to me by mutual friends at a social event I really enjoy, so I wasn't even in my most forbidding of attitudes at our first encounter.
So, yeah. I don't know. I'm sure there are still plenty of people who assume I'm a bitch, and I just tend not to find out until late in the game. Mostly I try not to care too much. Hopefully other people will have helpful advice for you if you want to make a better impression on strangers, because my only reaction to your story is to feel that you are perhaps more sinned against than sinning. Are you offending people, or are they offending you by declaring you a bitch without knowing you (and without you doing anything to merit it, if your friends and family are being honest with you)? There's definitely something to be said for choosing to be happy instead of right, but I would just say that if you don't actually want to change yourself you shouldn't feel you need to.
posted by katemonster at 9:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
So, yeah. I don't know. I'm sure there are still plenty of people who assume I'm a bitch, and I just tend not to find out until late in the game. Mostly I try not to care too much. Hopefully other people will have helpful advice for you if you want to make a better impression on strangers, because my only reaction to your story is to feel that you are perhaps more sinned against than sinning. Are you offending people, or are they offending you by declaring you a bitch without knowing you (and without you doing anything to merit it, if your friends and family are being honest with you)? There's definitely something to be said for choosing to be happy instead of right, but I would just say that if you don't actually want to change yourself you shouldn't feel you need to.
posted by katemonster at 9:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: This is absolutely definitely a sexism thing. It is completely unfair and is horrible and the reality that women face every day. You've really hit the nail on the head that we can't just be neutral and received well. Women have to be ingratiating and pandering and cheerful regardless of our actual emotions or we're called all manner of things, many much worse than bitchy.
So the thing that I have found myself doing as I've aged and my priorities have shifted towards ease of social interaction is that I have developed a very free and slightly whacky sense of humor. I generally will reflect the moods of acquaintances if they are serious, sad, or businesslike. But if they are neutral or angry or calm, I will interact with lighthearted humor if possible. My real sense of humor is still extremely cynical and dry, but I do find humor from other less defensive angles and it has gotten so much easier to make nice with strangers and the people I see in my regular haunts.
So maybe you don't want to shift your priorities. I think that is totally fine and admirable. But it wouldn't be a bad idea to do some self reflection and think about your empathy. The best way to avoid offending someone is to be able to see things, including yourself, from their perspective. Every person you see in a day is a whole consciousness apart from you with their own lives and stories. It isn't your job to smile and be pretty for them, but it is awfully nice to meet someone who is clearly trying to see you with the same open and complex perspective as they would like to be seen. This is hard work, though! But it gets sort of automatic after a while.
posted by Mizu at 9:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [39 favorites]
So the thing that I have found myself doing as I've aged and my priorities have shifted towards ease of social interaction is that I have developed a very free and slightly whacky sense of humor. I generally will reflect the moods of acquaintances if they are serious, sad, or businesslike. But if they are neutral or angry or calm, I will interact with lighthearted humor if possible. My real sense of humor is still extremely cynical and dry, but I do find humor from other less defensive angles and it has gotten so much easier to make nice with strangers and the people I see in my regular haunts.
So maybe you don't want to shift your priorities. I think that is totally fine and admirable. But it wouldn't be a bad idea to do some self reflection and think about your empathy. The best way to avoid offending someone is to be able to see things, including yourself, from their perspective. Every person you see in a day is a whole consciousness apart from you with their own lives and stories. It isn't your job to smile and be pretty for them, but it is awfully nice to meet someone who is clearly trying to see you with the same open and complex perspective as they would like to be seen. This is hard work, though! But it gets sort of automatic after a while.
posted by Mizu at 9:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [39 favorites]
You could simply be attractive and intimidating and it says more about the casual acquaintances than it does you.
I make a point of befriending people I think are bitchy and I am usually pleasantly surprised to find they are anything but.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
I make a point of befriending people I think are bitchy and I am usually pleasantly surprised to find they are anything but.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 9:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
2nd Mizu, and you, too, on there being a sexist expectation that women be pleasant.
But I think if you're seeing these casual contacts semi-regularly, there may be a (non-gendered) expectation of a certain positive valence in those run-ins. I probably would feel less good about what I perceived as indifference or grumpiness from anyone I saw in the hall four days a week than I would about receiving a smile or eyebrow flash. (Just because that's a kind of acknowledgement that the run-ins are happening and that the other person exists. Feels less awkward than pretending otherwise.)
If DarlingBri's right that RBF is a possibility, and if you want to stop people making assumptions that you're a "bitch", that eyebrow flash, and/or even a tiny smile, would probably make a difference. (I myself have the opposite problem :/ )
I also agree with discopolo that sarcasm or cynicism often comes across as defensiveness. If that's sort of your go-to place, it might come through in some nonverbal ways. But I think that little smile or eyebrow thing would do a lot to counteract that.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
But I think if you're seeing these casual contacts semi-regularly, there may be a (non-gendered) expectation of a certain positive valence in those run-ins. I probably would feel less good about what I perceived as indifference or grumpiness from anyone I saw in the hall four days a week than I would about receiving a smile or eyebrow flash. (Just because that's a kind of acknowledgement that the run-ins are happening and that the other person exists. Feels less awkward than pretending otherwise.)
If DarlingBri's right that RBF is a possibility, and if you want to stop people making assumptions that you're a "bitch", that eyebrow flash, and/or even a tiny smile, would probably make a difference. (I myself have the opposite problem :/ )
I also agree with discopolo that sarcasm or cynicism often comes across as defensiveness. If that's sort of your go-to place, it might come through in some nonverbal ways. But I think that little smile or eyebrow thing would do a lot to counteract that.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have a very beautiful friend who is quiet and shy, and the girls at work interpreted her as being a stuck up snob. That couldn't be further from the truth, she was very kind and had social anxiety... I think those girls were jealous and it was the pretty penalty.
posted by catspajammies at 10:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by catspajammies at 10:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am a woman with a fairly 'bitchy resting face' & am also private & introverted. I've been told that people find me a bit intimidating when first getting to know me, but I don't get this response to casual interactions at all, so I've trying to think about how these interactions go.
I definitely don't smile maniacally at people, but in these 'holding the door open type' interactions, at the moment when the other person & I catch each other's gaze, we twitch a smile & do the 'raised eyebrow acknowledgement' twitch & maybe nod slightly. Its a really small gesture, but everyone does it to me, as well as me doing it to them & I think maybe this is what you are missing?
It seems to be a basic gesture of non-aggression & goodwill. And the interaction doesn't seem to be gender- specific at all, although of course the absence of it would be interpreted differently for men.
posted by cantthinkofagoodname at 10:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I definitely don't smile maniacally at people, but in these 'holding the door open type' interactions, at the moment when the other person & I catch each other's gaze, we twitch a smile & do the 'raised eyebrow acknowledgement' twitch & maybe nod slightly. Its a really small gesture, but everyone does it to me, as well as me doing it to them & I think maybe this is what you are missing?
It seems to be a basic gesture of non-aggression & goodwill. And the interaction doesn't seem to be gender- specific at all, although of course the absence of it would be interpreted differently for men.
posted by cantthinkofagoodname at 10:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm with DarlingBri then. I'm pretty sure when strange men smile at me, I get that look that makes it look like I'm smelling something awful but that's only because God knows if a smile will make them think it's okay to try to talk to me .
Who cares what a bunch of randos think? What kind of people think it's okay to tell random people they think someone's a bitch? Just do the "smelling something bad" look to let them know they're being inappropriate. Being silent and looking at them with a neutral expression after they make such a dumb comment should also work. Throw in a, "Sorry you feel that way. It certainly isn't my intention, what else can I help you with?" in a monotonous voice might also help them realize how effing ridiculous they are being. What weirdos!
posted by discopolo at 11:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Who cares what a bunch of randos think? What kind of people think it's okay to tell random people they think someone's a bitch? Just do the "smelling something bad" look to let them know they're being inappropriate. Being silent and looking at them with a neutral expression after they make such a dumb comment should also work. Throw in a, "Sorry you feel that way. It certainly isn't my intention, what else can I help you with?" in a monotonous voice might also help them realize how effing ridiculous they are being. What weirdos!
posted by discopolo at 11:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think you'll have to ask people in real life to get a solid answer to this. Of course, it's true that women are held to a different standard of niceness than men, and that the word "bitch" can get used in all kinds of sexist ways. But I can also think of a lot of fairly "neutral" women who aren't nicey-nice but who aren't widely considered bitches by those they casually interact with, so if this is your experience, and if it matters (e.g., if you think it might impact your ability to meet new friends or advance in the workplace), then I'd ask your friends (ideally, your most feminist friends) why they think you're perceived that way and if there's any way that you might want to adjust your behavior.
posted by salvia at 11:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by salvia at 11:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]
People who claim to know about you without actually knowing you, ugh. If someone actually feels the need to tell you this, reply that something about you sometimes prompts assholes to self-identify, and you've found it very helpful in weeding out asshole guys from you life before you get involved with them. It's like you have some kind of built-in asshole filter.
iMO, people worth knowing better won't decide you're _____ before getting to know you and your story, and everyone has their interesting story inside them.
posted by SillyShepherd at 1:06 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
iMO, people worth knowing better won't decide you're _____ before getting to know you and your story, and everyone has their interesting story inside them.
posted by SillyShepherd at 1:06 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Another vote for team "stop caring what these people think". I've been working this year on doing less fake stuff that kills me inside because I believe people expect it of me and it's so liberating I feel like I've unshackled beast that won't be crammed back inside.
No I won't make eye contact with strangers if I don't want to, no I won't fake-laugh at your joke that was rude about poor people just because you expect me to, I'm not gonna drop that thing I believe in for the sake of social harmony. I'd rather have everyone dislike me for my failure to performatively woman in the course of being true to myself than spend another day pretending to like doing all of the garbage social interactions that are expected of me.
Cynicism and sarcasm don't inherently mean you're a bad sad twisted person, and even if they do, that's an okay thing to be around other people and you don't have to conceal it just to make them feel better.
I've had a super-shitty year (multiple bereavements, lots of health problems, eviction, job stuff), and it's been much easier to deal with since I stopped feeling compelled to pretend it was all okay by being a happiness jester. So when a dude in work told me I was being a grump for not wanting to sing Christmas carols in the lobby this year, instead of fake-grinning and muttering something about it not being my thing, I asked why he thought I should feel compelled to perform happiness, why he thought that was a legitimate thing to ask of me with no real knowledge of my life. And it felt terrifying and adrenaline-filled and so, so worth it, because I care far more about standing up for myself and being open about what is right for me than about the feelings of some dude who already thinks I owe him a happiness performance.
It is the scariest, realest thing I have done, and it's hitting up hard against 20-odd years of "but you need to stamp down all your horrible feelings or else the nice people will know you're broken and despise you", but that gets trumped by a hearty helping of Just Don't Care Any More.
Obviously there's still tact and judgement and times and places and doing this in a way that won't harm your career, but I strongly believe there's a way to care so much less about making other people like you whilst still functioning in the world, and it feels for me like a huge weight is slowly lifting.
(In classic AskMe style, I've found therapy really helpful during this process).
posted by terretu at 1:24 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
No I won't make eye contact with strangers if I don't want to, no I won't fake-laugh at your joke that was rude about poor people just because you expect me to, I'm not gonna drop that thing I believe in for the sake of social harmony. I'd rather have everyone dislike me for my failure to performatively woman in the course of being true to myself than spend another day pretending to like doing all of the garbage social interactions that are expected of me.
Cynicism and sarcasm don't inherently mean you're a bad sad twisted person, and even if they do, that's an okay thing to be around other people and you don't have to conceal it just to make them feel better.
I've had a super-shitty year (multiple bereavements, lots of health problems, eviction, job stuff), and it's been much easier to deal with since I stopped feeling compelled to pretend it was all okay by being a happiness jester. So when a dude in work told me I was being a grump for not wanting to sing Christmas carols in the lobby this year, instead of fake-grinning and muttering something about it not being my thing, I asked why he thought I should feel compelled to perform happiness, why he thought that was a legitimate thing to ask of me with no real knowledge of my life. And it felt terrifying and adrenaline-filled and so, so worth it, because I care far more about standing up for myself and being open about what is right for me than about the feelings of some dude who already thinks I owe him a happiness performance.
It is the scariest, realest thing I have done, and it's hitting up hard against 20-odd years of "but you need to stamp down all your horrible feelings or else the nice people will know you're broken and despise you", but that gets trumped by a hearty helping of Just Don't Care Any More.
Obviously there's still tact and judgement and times and places and doing this in a way that won't harm your career, but I strongly believe there's a way to care so much less about making other people like you whilst still functioning in the world, and it feels for me like a huge weight is slowly lifting.
(In classic AskMe style, I've found therapy really helpful during this process).
posted by terretu at 1:24 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best answer: Also, if anyone thinks you're any misogynistic slur, that's 100% their problem, not yours. Those words are designed to tear down women who dare to be notable and visible and who dare not to do what's expected of them.
If some misogynists thinking you're a thing they think is bad is the consequence of what you're doing, you're probably doing something right.
posted by terretu at 1:29 AM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
If some misogynists thinking you're a thing they think is bad is the consequence of what you're doing, you're probably doing something right.
posted by terretu at 1:29 AM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
If you don't know them well and hardly interact with them, how do you know they think you're a bitch? Are multiple people in casual interactions who you don't know very well and who have no reason to care (because they do not work with you or know you well) actually telling you to your face that you are such a bitch? Because, wow if so. There is really no call for them to do that or for you to give one single flying shit about what they think.
On the other hand, if you are guessing that this is what they think from their behaviour or generalising from the comments of one or two assholes (even if what they said was "everyone thinks this") then I might gently suggest that you rethink your premises. Probably the vast majority of people don't think you're a bitch and are not offended at all. Individuals can be that rude, sure, but the sort of social context in which it is a common, recurrent situation that people are rude enough to say something like that to someone they don't know well is pretty rare. If you're really getting that kind of frequent general feedback then, seriously, you're hanging out with assholes and your best move is to find new people to hang out with. But I seriously doubt that's the case. I think you're probably over-generalising from a few comments or over-interpreting ambiguous behaviour, and you don't have much to worry about.
I say this as a woman who is like the opposite of super feminine, is pretty sarcastic and cynical, and definitely has a pretty "unhappy" resting face. I have gotten 'bitchy' comments from isolated people (and learned to shrug them off) but never as a recurrent thing. This is true across a huge variety of social situations that span the whole range of classes and political persuasions and living on three continents.
posted by forza at 1:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, if you are guessing that this is what they think from their behaviour or generalising from the comments of one or two assholes (even if what they said was "everyone thinks this") then I might gently suggest that you rethink your premises. Probably the vast majority of people don't think you're a bitch and are not offended at all. Individuals can be that rude, sure, but the sort of social context in which it is a common, recurrent situation that people are rude enough to say something like that to someone they don't know well is pretty rare. If you're really getting that kind of frequent general feedback then, seriously, you're hanging out with assholes and your best move is to find new people to hang out with. But I seriously doubt that's the case. I think you're probably over-generalising from a few comments or over-interpreting ambiguous behaviour, and you don't have much to worry about.
I say this as a woman who is like the opposite of super feminine, is pretty sarcastic and cynical, and definitely has a pretty "unhappy" resting face. I have gotten 'bitchy' comments from isolated people (and learned to shrug them off) but never as a recurrent thing. This is true across a huge variety of social situations that span the whole range of classes and political persuasions and living on three continents.
posted by forza at 1:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
A) Stop caring about this. Who cares if people you interact with only tanegntially have the wrong impression of you? That's THEIR failing, not yours. Do YOU know who you really ar? Good, then be happy with that.
B) I have both Resting Bitch Face and a naturally flat intonation, which means everything I say, even when I'm trying to be nice, comes out all April Ludgate. I've been told 10000000 times that I'm an ice queen. Whatever. Those people don't know me.
posted by Brittanie at 2:29 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
B) I have both Resting Bitch Face and a naturally flat intonation, which means everything I say, even when I'm trying to be nice, comes out all April Ludgate. I've been told 10000000 times that I'm an ice queen. Whatever. Those people don't know me.
posted by Brittanie at 2:29 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I have a full-on face; I have a big, boxy square jaw, high cheekbones, and a perma-scowl because my vision is poor and I often have to squint to see. Acquaintances have repeatedly told me that I struck them as 'scary' and 'mean' when they first met me. And, y'know what? Fuck 'em. I am not scary and mean, and my friends don't think I'm scary and mean, and the people who become friends don't think I'm scary and mean.
It's not my job to look nice and make strangers happy.
Also, who in the hell passed on that mean little tidbit of gossip to you?! Why do you need to know that strangers think you're 'such a bitch'?
posted by nerdfish at 3:00 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's not my job to look nice and make strangers happy.
Also, who in the hell passed on that mean little tidbit of gossip to you?! Why do you need to know that strangers think you're 'such a bitch'?
posted by nerdfish at 3:00 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is also me. Unfortunately my workplace puts a high premium on "looking like you want to be here" and I've been called out more than once, in private meetings, for this very issue. You'd be surprised how important fakey-niceness is to some people. So the result is I do a lot of pretending as I go about my workday. I am very private but I also tend to let my inner thoughts affect my demeanor, so if things are not going great I just turn into myself and put up a shell. This happened a lot over the past year. Consequently I did a lot of conscious social fakery, to get along. It's just easier than the alternative. Lucky I am good at it I guess. Doesn't make it right, I know. But still.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:49 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:49 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
When people are in at least occasional repeated contact in a circumscribed and known context, e.g. work, they usually prefer minimally prosocial communication. This might appear "manic" to you if it's well outside of your comfort zone (or it may be that the local norm carries an expectation of significant enthusiasm). And it's awful when that expectation deeply conflicts with your habit, and how you feel. I've been there. But that doesn't mean that it's necessarily "fakery" or "pandering" for everyone, even for women. Some people do actually enjoy (in a small way) those micro-exchanges, or are relieved by freedom from the possibility of hostility. It's important to acknowledge the uneven burden on women, but I think putting all positive public interactions under suspicion might be going a bit far.
I mean it's also not true that the whole world's like a tiny Irish village, where strangers full-on smile, nod, maybe say the word "hello" when they meet on a path. In cities and other places with an overwhelming volume of people, anonymity and efficiency is better for most. And there are places where keeping one's distance and avoiding eye contact is respectful.
But in most places, in a work or neighbourhood setting, which is what I'm assuming applies, people are usually, unconsciously, looking for some (even small) signal of absence of threat, and/or recognition, and there definitely is a middle ground between capital N nice and "bitchy".
Certainly agree that the penalty for nonconformity is unevenly and unfairly applied to women, any way you look at it, everywhere you look at it.
Certainly, extroverts dominate business, and that's unfair. And it's also true that some work cultures or neighbourhoods have comparatively extreme and highly compulsory affective and behavioural norms, with real sanctions for failing to meet them.
But if you're saying that you feel that you're offending everybody and that you're not received well, the people you know are complete jerks, you're overgeneralizing, there's something missing in those holding the door exchanges, or some combination of the above.
Of course you don't have to conform, nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But it's not necessarily "smile manically + be a tool/victim of the patriarchy / phony" or "be your authentic self". If a little tweak would help your experience in the social world go a little more smoothly, or reduce the psychological cost to you, it might be worth considering.
But yes, ask around for an in vivo reality check and consider the other possibilities.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:52 AM on December 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I mean it's also not true that the whole world's like a tiny Irish village, where strangers full-on smile, nod, maybe say the word "hello" when they meet on a path. In cities and other places with an overwhelming volume of people, anonymity and efficiency is better for most. And there are places where keeping one's distance and avoiding eye contact is respectful.
But in most places, in a work or neighbourhood setting, which is what I'm assuming applies, people are usually, unconsciously, looking for some (even small) signal of absence of threat, and/or recognition, and there definitely is a middle ground between capital N nice and "bitchy".
Certainly agree that the penalty for nonconformity is unevenly and unfairly applied to women, any way you look at it, everywhere you look at it.
Certainly, extroverts dominate business, and that's unfair. And it's also true that some work cultures or neighbourhoods have comparatively extreme and highly compulsory affective and behavioural norms, with real sanctions for failing to meet them.
But if you're saying that you feel that you're offending everybody and that you're not received well, the people you know are complete jerks, you're overgeneralizing, there's something missing in those holding the door exchanges, or some combination of the above.
Of course you don't have to conform, nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But it's not necessarily "smile manically + be a tool/victim of the patriarchy / phony" or "be your authentic self". If a little tweak would help your experience in the social world go a little more smoothly, or reduce the psychological cost to you, it might be worth considering.
But yes, ask around for an in vivo reality check and consider the other possibilities.
posted by cotton dress sock at 4:52 AM on December 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
To add to what nerdfish said, you can reply, "My friends know better, though." And silently add, "and you're not one of them."
posted by SillyShepherd at 5:14 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by SillyShepherd at 5:14 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
As comforting as it is to blame it all on sexism and spin off this, 'This is how I am and I don't give a fuck' attitude, you're really doing yourself a disservice by doing so, especially if this is happening in professional settings. For sure, sexism colors some of these interactions, but it's not a normal experience to be universally perceived as a bitch upon first meeting.
What I think is interesting about the resting bitch face video linked to above is that it's not the face that makes these women come off as bitches. It's their voices. Watch the section where the woman interacts with the store clerk and the other where one answers a marriage proposal. Are you using that limp, disinterested, condescending tone of voice when you talk? For me, that always sets off a knee-jerk bitch flag. I'm not saying you have to be super cheerful, but as cotton dress sock says, there's a middle ground here.
posted by unannihilated at 5:34 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
What I think is interesting about the resting bitch face video linked to above is that it's not the face that makes these women come off as bitches. It's their voices. Watch the section where the woman interacts with the store clerk and the other where one answers a marriage proposal. Are you using that limp, disinterested, condescending tone of voice when you talk? For me, that always sets off a knee-jerk bitch flag. I'm not saying you have to be super cheerful, but as cotton dress sock says, there's a middle ground here.
posted by unannihilated at 5:34 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
One thought: there is no such thing as "neutral". Most people are constantly assessing new-to-us people to determine whether they are friendly or unfriendly. This happens unconsciously for most of us, and there are some people who are so occupied thinking about other things that this kind of friend-or-foe calculus doesn't happen, but for most people it's happening constantly. If you think you are neutral in expression and tone, then you will often be read as hostile.
For example, if you really don't like someone, you know that it's impolite to express it and be actively hostile to them. In this case, you'll likely just not express how you feel. So, lack of expression correlates with actual antipathy. People know this, since they do it themselves, so inexpressiveness means that you may actually not like the person you're with.
However, if you think about this too much, you could start acting "friendly" to everyone you meet, which is what we call insincerity or "fakeness". Possibly just letting people think you are hostile sometimes isn't the end of the world.
posted by amtho at 6:27 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
For example, if you really don't like someone, you know that it's impolite to express it and be actively hostile to them. In this case, you'll likely just not express how you feel. So, lack of expression correlates with actual antipathy. People know this, since they do it themselves, so inexpressiveness means that you may actually not like the person you're with.
However, if you think about this too much, you could start acting "friendly" to everyone you meet, which is what we call insincerity or "fakeness". Possibly just letting people think you are hostile sometimes isn't the end of the world.
posted by amtho at 6:27 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Everyone thinks my sister-in-law is a bitch, even though she is the nicest person ever. It's a combination of resting bitch face, good posture, speed, and extreme honesty. She's also very, very attractive, which is intimidating to everyone. When I first met her, I thought she was judging me all the time, but realized I was the one judging myself in comparison to her.
People often go out of their way to tell me how nice and friendly I am. I'm really not that nice of a person, I just have a habit of smiling when I'm nervous.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 6:56 AM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
People often go out of their way to tell me how nice and friendly I am. I'm really not that nice of a person, I just have a habit of smiling when I'm nervous.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 6:56 AM on December 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
I work in an office with lots of people, many of whom I don't work with closely, and many of whom (including myself) are introverts and a good helping of social awkwardness. We also have a couple of long halls on the path to the kitchen and bathroom.
There are a variety of ways people handle these awkward moments, and they range from super friendly to super awkward. There's only one person that I've found who feels consistently, actively hostile to many different people and across the span of years. Analyzing her behavior from memory, she does two things that I think might be sending this message 1) she looks at you (makes eye contact) but then makes no acknowledgement 2) after eye contact she looks straight through you
So basically her expression/non-verbal communicate disdain/disinterest enough that she can't even bother to avert her eyes/incline her head or even awkwardly grimace.
So, if you make eye contact with someone you're holding a door for, or passing in a hall, do you then give any verbal/non-verbal acknowledgment of that person? Mouth twitch, eyebrow raise, head nod, etc?
If you don't, where do your eyes go after the eye contact? Down or through them?
posted by The Shoodoonoof at 7:06 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
There are a variety of ways people handle these awkward moments, and they range from super friendly to super awkward. There's only one person that I've found who feels consistently, actively hostile to many different people and across the span of years. Analyzing her behavior from memory, she does two things that I think might be sending this message 1) she looks at you (makes eye contact) but then makes no acknowledgement 2) after eye contact she looks straight through you
So basically her expression/non-verbal communicate disdain/disinterest enough that she can't even bother to avert her eyes/incline her head or even awkwardly grimace.
So, if you make eye contact with someone you're holding a door for, or passing in a hall, do you then give any verbal/non-verbal acknowledgment of that person? Mouth twitch, eyebrow raise, head nod, etc?
If you don't, where do your eyes go after the eye contact? Down or through them?
posted by The Shoodoonoof at 7:06 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'd go the opposite direction. Telling someone you think they're a bitch implies they're not scary enough for you to truly fear retribution. It's more of a moralistic scolding, even a bullying- "you're not conforming enough! Im telling on you!" In this situation, it is they who are the true bitch. Philosophically and ethically speaking.
So if people aren't scared of you enough yet to hold their tongue, go full 100% real bitch. Like dial it up to 11. Ice cold stares. "You feeling lucky punk" face. Shut it down with your haughty, powerful I-can't-be-shamed bitch lazers.
Just, you know, one option to consider.
posted by quincunx at 7:18 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
So if people aren't scared of you enough yet to hold their tongue, go full 100% real bitch. Like dial it up to 11. Ice cold stares. "You feeling lucky punk" face. Shut it down with your haughty, powerful I-can't-be-shamed bitch lazers.
Just, you know, one option to consider.
posted by quincunx at 7:18 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think unannihilated has this one. If what you say is accurate, I think there's probably something slightly more than simple "women are perceived as bitches if they don't smile and act cute" sexism stuff going on. Just speaking from my own experience, I am not at all smiley or ingratiating, never have been, and I'm often cynical and sarcastic like you. But if I'm perceived as a bitch in general, it's not something I'm aware of -- certainly, no one has ever told me that other people generally think I'm "such a bitch," nor do people generally react poorly to me upon meeting me. So yeah, I agree that dismissing it and chalking it up entirely to sexism or misogyny isn't telling the whole story here. Your conclusion that women are "either super feminine and smiley or we are cold and bitchy" is really a false dichotomy, and as unannihilated points out, I suspect you do yourself a disservice by dismissing the problem as such.
I will say that I'm perceived as nasty and bitchy far more online than in real life; there are definitely some people over on another system I use who think I'm the worst person in the world and have called me names far worse than "bitch." I assume that's because I tend to speak directly online as I do in real life, but without an offsetting tone or facial expression, so I come across to some people as harsh. So I wonder if that's part of what's going on with you -- are you generally fairly direct in your opinions? If so, maybe try to think about whether you can deliver certain messages more diplomatically. Which is not to say you have to dumb yourself down or make yourself bland, but that you think more about how your speech is perceived by others.
posted by holborne at 7:52 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I will say that I'm perceived as nasty and bitchy far more online than in real life; there are definitely some people over on another system I use who think I'm the worst person in the world and have called me names far worse than "bitch." I assume that's because I tend to speak directly online as I do in real life, but without an offsetting tone or facial expression, so I come across to some people as harsh. So I wonder if that's part of what's going on with you -- are you generally fairly direct in your opinions? If so, maybe try to think about whether you can deliver certain messages more diplomatically. Which is not to say you have to dumb yourself down or make yourself bland, but that you think more about how your speech is perceived by others.
posted by holborne at 7:52 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not my job to look nice and make strangers happy.
This, 10000x.
posted by flabdablet at 8:20 AM on December 23, 2015
This, 10000x.
posted by flabdablet at 8:20 AM on December 23, 2015
Best answer: Yeah, this is me, pretty much. I've had a number of people come up to me with comments similar to the ones you've received ("Wow, when I first met you I thought you were really a bitch but you're actually really nice and friendly!"). It's sexism all the way, triggered by things like height, posture, introversion, and self-assurance.
And I would argue that "resting bitch face" is, while helpful to some, a deeply sexist notion. Men are never held to any particular standards of how their faces appear in a neutral position. It's not resting bitch anything, it's just face.
posted by zug at 9:23 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
And I would argue that "resting bitch face" is, while helpful to some, a deeply sexist notion. Men are never held to any particular standards of how their faces appear in a neutral position. It's not resting bitch anything, it's just face.
posted by zug at 9:23 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yet another woman for whom this is me. I'm tall, rather visibly strong, confident, quiet, and introverted. So many people assume I'm a complete snooty bitchy bitch with a stick up her butt from hell when they first meet me. Y'know that OKCupid question that's something like "what's the first reaction of people when they meet you?" Yeah, I can't answer that one honestly. Because it's basically "this tall woman who thinks she's the shit and so much better than everyone else!!!"
It takes about six months for that to dissipate. It's been this way for me ever since I can remember, I mean even my own mother called me a stuck-up bitch (literally in those words), so I learned very quickly just to not give a shit. That's really the best approach. Be yourself, empathetically (soooo many others deal with this sort of thing and similar too), and it will sort itself out eventually.
One thing that does work particularly well, and is probably the only thing I kinda sorta do on purpose, is make painfully ponderous jokes that have a humorous relation to self-importance. For instance, just today, one of our managers is actually on vacation but joined a meeting I was running because he wanted to add his voice in support. He joined "late" and apologized. I did deathly serious bitch face (I like bitch face) "how dare you be on vacation. At end-of-year holidays even." Cue silence followed by generalized choking on laughter and general easing of atmosphere. My educated guess is that it works so well because it directly links weighty whatever-it-is they think is so bitchy to humor, and so they start to realize there's just an introverted geek beneath what they originally assumed was a grave exterior. It works best if that's genuinely your personality, though. So always go with what's genuine to yourself.
posted by fraula at 11:59 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
It takes about six months for that to dissipate. It's been this way for me ever since I can remember, I mean even my own mother called me a stuck-up bitch (literally in those words), so I learned very quickly just to not give a shit. That's really the best approach. Be yourself, empathetically (soooo many others deal with this sort of thing and similar too), and it will sort itself out eventually.
One thing that does work particularly well, and is probably the only thing I kinda sorta do on purpose, is make painfully ponderous jokes that have a humorous relation to self-importance. For instance, just today, one of our managers is actually on vacation but joined a meeting I was running because he wanted to add his voice in support. He joined "late" and apologized. I did deathly serious bitch face (I like bitch face) "how dare you be on vacation. At end-of-year holidays even." Cue silence followed by generalized choking on laughter and general easing of atmosphere. My educated guess is that it works so well because it directly links weighty whatever-it-is they think is so bitchy to humor, and so they start to realize there's just an introverted geek beneath what they originally assumed was a grave exterior. It works best if that's genuinely your personality, though. So always go with what's genuine to yourself.
posted by fraula at 11:59 AM on December 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm tired of hearing it and would like to change whatever it is....It's not my job to look nice and make strangers happy.
It's also not your job to hold doors for people or wait at elevators, but you choose to anyway because they're "basic courteous things." Some people think that greeting casual acquaintances with a quick half-smile is a basic courteous thing. Fair or unfair, the end of the day it's everyone else who gets to decide whether you demonstrated basic courtesy.
A lot of the language in your post is very black/white and sounds pretty standoffish. You know this isn't about "people everywhere, and smiling at another employee on your floor won't make them happy, and I think you know these things. There are also 4,936 grades of intensity between no smile and manic smile. Your concerns about expectations placed on women are very real things and I agree, but not smiling at $person because The World's not the boss of you means you're approaching $people on the defensive and apparently they can tell.
I'm a smiler (female/totally not feminine), and I do it because it helps me get out of my own head during the day and acknowledge other people. I've historically been bad at making eye contact with people and since doing that more and smiling I'm surprised at how pleasantly people react. I feel better and they seem to feel better and it took me less than a second.
I was randomly pulled by TSA on Thanksgiving for enhanced screening and was super pleasant about it - neither of us really had a choice about it right? After the pat-down she had to run my stuff through a metal detector again and it took her long enough to get it up and running that I was only 10 minutes away from doors closing on my flight. She pulled four other people off the regular security lines to go through my stuff and pack it up again in two minutes instead of 15 or whatever. Would she have done that if I wasn't friendly? Dunno, but I also know that I'm not wondering if I missed my flight because it's not my job to look nice.
posted by good lorneing at 10:00 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's also not your job to hold doors for people or wait at elevators, but you choose to anyway because they're "basic courteous things." Some people think that greeting casual acquaintances with a quick half-smile is a basic courteous thing. Fair or unfair, the end of the day it's everyone else who gets to decide whether you demonstrated basic courtesy.
A lot of the language in your post is very black/white and sounds pretty standoffish. You know this isn't about "people everywhere, and smiling at another employee on your floor won't make them happy, and I think you know these things. There are also 4,936 grades of intensity between no smile and manic smile. Your concerns about expectations placed on women are very real things and I agree, but not smiling at $person because The World's not the boss of you means you're approaching $people on the defensive and apparently they can tell.
I'm a smiler (female/totally not feminine), and I do it because it helps me get out of my own head during the day and acknowledge other people. I've historically been bad at making eye contact with people and since doing that more and smiling I'm surprised at how pleasantly people react. I feel better and they seem to feel better and it took me less than a second.
I was randomly pulled by TSA on Thanksgiving for enhanced screening and was super pleasant about it - neither of us really had a choice about it right? After the pat-down she had to run my stuff through a metal detector again and it took her long enough to get it up and running that I was only 10 minutes away from doors closing on my flight. She pulled four other people off the regular security lines to go through my stuff and pack it up again in two minutes instead of 15 or whatever. Would she have done that if I wasn't friendly? Dunno, but I also know that I'm not wondering if I missed my flight because it's not my job to look nice.
posted by good lorneing at 10:00 AM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm female, an introvert, and I generally at best manage a fake close-lipped smile at strangers and bare acquaintances; sometimes not even that. Sometimes I've just had too much Peopling for the day, and avert my eyes. Despite this, I don't recall ever in my 42+ years one of these people actually calling me a bitch to my face.
So, OP, your experience is so foreign to me that I think something else is going on here, either:
1. This has only happened once or twice and it was so upsetting that you're thinking of it as something "people do" when in fact it's a rare exception. If this is the case, I think you just have to write them off as jerks and realize how you were overgeneralizing.
2. You are ruder than you realize. I like the idea of videotaping yourself to see yourself how you appear. I also like the idea of having another talk with people you are close to and asking for specifics about how you first appeared to them. Maybe they can point out body language that created a different impression of you initially than they have now.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:43 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
So, OP, your experience is so foreign to me that I think something else is going on here, either:
1. This has only happened once or twice and it was so upsetting that you're thinking of it as something "people do" when in fact it's a rare exception. If this is the case, I think you just have to write them off as jerks and realize how you were overgeneralizing.
2. You are ruder than you realize. I like the idea of videotaping yourself to see yourself how you appear. I also like the idea of having another talk with people you are close to and asking for specifics about how you first appeared to them. Maybe they can point out body language that created a different impression of you initially than they have now.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:43 PM on December 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
First and foremost is the question of whether or not you want to change. I'm going to assume that you do, since you posted this question in the first place.
One thing jumped out at me from your question : I have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor
And then further downthread, a commenter compared you to one of their friends who is known for "extreme honesty".
Now, the word "bitch" is obviously a gendered insult, and thus reeks of sexism. However, I've known people of both genders who "have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor" and are "known for extreme honesty". While this behavior can be found in women, there's also a corresponding male personality type : the "funny" asshole. You know, the guy who's always making snarky comments and snide remarks that are either intended as jokes, or made to appear as if they're jokes. They're not quite put-downs, but they're not not put-downs either. And I put "funny" in scare quotes, because I don't ever think these people are funny. Witty perhaps, but I'm never fully comfortable around them. I feel like I always have to be on-guard.
But perhaps you're not one of these people. Maybe I've over-emphasized the "humor" part.
I've also known people of both genders who simply come off as negative, critical, and overly-serious. They probably don't see their behavior as aggressive. But it feels like they're always shooting you down in some way, or making you feel like something you said was dumb when all you were trying to do was make small talk. Again, I feel like I can never really relax around these people.
It's possible that neither of these personality types describe you. But you may want to take a step back and ask yourself, "Is my energy truly neutral? Or perhaps it is slightly negative?" Nobody's asking you to be all-positive and happy and cheery. But if you put slightly negative energy out there and you don't put any positive energy out there, people are going to perceive you as slightly negative. This is probably not a huge deal. I doubt that people think you're a horrible person. In fact, you may decide that you don't want to change at all. But if you do, this is where I would start.
posted by panama joe at 10:38 AM on December 26, 2015
One thing jumped out at me from your question : I have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor
And then further downthread, a commenter compared you to one of their friends who is known for "extreme honesty".
Now, the word "bitch" is obviously a gendered insult, and thus reeks of sexism. However, I've known people of both genders who "have a very sarcastic and dry sense of humor" and are "known for extreme honesty". While this behavior can be found in women, there's also a corresponding male personality type : the "funny" asshole. You know, the guy who's always making snarky comments and snide remarks that are either intended as jokes, or made to appear as if they're jokes. They're not quite put-downs, but they're not not put-downs either. And I put "funny" in scare quotes, because I don't ever think these people are funny. Witty perhaps, but I'm never fully comfortable around them. I feel like I always have to be on-guard.
But perhaps you're not one of these people. Maybe I've over-emphasized the "humor" part.
I've also known people of both genders who simply come off as negative, critical, and overly-serious. They probably don't see their behavior as aggressive. But it feels like they're always shooting you down in some way, or making you feel like something you said was dumb when all you were trying to do was make small talk. Again, I feel like I can never really relax around these people.
It's possible that neither of these personality types describe you. But you may want to take a step back and ask yourself, "Is my energy truly neutral? Or perhaps it is slightly negative?" Nobody's asking you to be all-positive and happy and cheery. But if you put slightly negative energy out there and you don't put any positive energy out there, people are going to perceive you as slightly negative. This is probably not a huge deal. I doubt that people think you're a horrible person. In fact, you may decide that you don't want to change at all. But if you do, this is where I would start.
posted by panama joe at 10:38 AM on December 26, 2015
Save your jokes for people who can appreciate them. Sarcasm has no place at work. In most cases, if irony can be taken the wrong way, it will.
Try to dial back your interactions to completely neutral remarks. Eliminate comments with hidden/double meaning or ironic intonation. And no sneering or raised eyebrows. Calm, neutral face-- Mona Lisa smile.
posted by ohshenandoah at 7:25 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Try to dial back your interactions to completely neutral remarks. Eliminate comments with hidden/double meaning or ironic intonation. And no sneering or raised eyebrows. Calm, neutral face-- Mona Lisa smile.
posted by ohshenandoah at 7:25 PM on December 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I don't think sarcasm and cynicism are genuine attitudes; I interpret them as defensive postures and warnings from people who are extremely scared and insecure. People who have most likely have had to become that way because they're afraid of getting targeted or picked on. I interpret that they're showing that they're ready and capable of attack if someone even expresses the slightest displeasure with them. The cynical and sarcastic are trying to not appear vulnerable, IMHO, but you need to be vulnerable to be able to genuinely connect with people.
Sarcasm and cynicism are funny on TV; real life is different. It's not your job to entertain everybody.
You don't have to smile all the time as a woman. I'm proof of that. But I smile a lot without feeling forced and I don't say sarcastic things anymore because I'm not in an unhappy relationship anymore and miserable anymore. And I don't need to put things or people down anymore. I don't feel pressured to be positive in my life; it feels natural when you try really listening to yourself and figuring out what you're really trying to express, and if you really believe what you're saying, how genuinely you represent yourself to others, etc
And if you feel like doing so, perhaps consider this: Being genuine means not being afraid to be yourself and not being apologetic about being your vulnerable self. Consider saying what you mean without the cynical and sarcastic veneer and I think you would be less likely to alienate others.
posted by discopolo at 9:03 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]