Threenagers: potty power struggles and being quiet for baby
December 5, 2015 8:52 AM Subscribe
I've got a Threenager on my hands. I've read all the other posts here on this topic and am zeroing in on two issues: refusal to use the toilet and inability to be quiet when her baby sister is sleeping.
Our little girl is loving and smart and very verbal. She has always had a lot of self control for her age. She can be a ton of fun. She is super imaginative and mischievous and sweet. We're engaged in huge power struggles right now though. They've been building all year but really amped up when her little sister was born and a couple months later when she switched to a big sometimes chaotic preschool/elementary (which she loves). (She was in a private and much more low key nursery school before). She gets less outdoor time now by far, but we don't see fewer discipline issues on the weekends when she gets tons of outdoor time. She naps at school but not at home. She has trouble going to sleep on nap days.
Big fight #1: she refuses to use the toilet. All day long. She has incredibly bladder control but we worry about UTIs. She can sleep all night and wait hours to go pee. She is very well hydrated. She rarely goes even when she obviously feels a strong urge. She has been potty trained for a year and a half. About six months ago she told us she was done with nighttime diapers. She was right - she was ready physically to hold it all night if she goes pee before bed. So now we have three huge fights a day - morning potty fight, midday potty fight, bedtime potty fight. We have tried rewards and consequences with some limited success. We're currently using a chart that ranges from "fabulous" to "consequence." She's sometimes motivated to be on fabulous or good job rather than "warning" "time out," or "consequence." We also have a jar we put tiny pompoms in when she does good things (2 for potty, 3 when she goes potty unprompted, etc.). And she can spend the pompoms on treats and TV etc. Sometimes I'm ashamed to say we lose our tempers and yell at her to just go. We have also resorted to taking away treats, TV, toys, and activities as a consequence. That works sometimes but less and less. This is also part of her general resistance to bedtime, but it's not only a bedtime battle.
Big fight #2: She often loses her self control during bedtime and has a full blown screaming/crying fit while her baby sister is sleeping. We're currently trying to gently teach the baby to sleep, and the baby is already a tricky and easily roused sleeper. So you can imagine how stressed this tantrums right next to the baby's (our) bedroom make us. We all get very amped up. It's stressful and sad and oh so frustrating for all of us. We've tried talking about good behavior in advance. We've tried bribes. We've tried consequences. At this point 50-75% of the nights this happens. And then once she's settled in bed, finally having used the toilet and brushed teeth and put on PJs and had a story and had the fan turned on and her light turned on the lowest setting and her door closed (her Rules), she stays up until 9 or 9:30 coming up with excuses for why she can't go to bed. The next morning we have to wake her for school. We've tried earlier and later bedtimes with no luck.
Any advice? It's like she runs out of self control. (Although to be fair the morning routine can be nearly as bad.) We're not proud of how we respond (a lot of stern talking and some yelling) and what we're doing isn't working well. We have a bad habit of coming up with consequences on the fly we won't enforce or don't want to enforce. We're working on that. We're trying to be more measured and give more consistent consequences. She's perfectly willing to cut off her nose to spite her face though she does throw a tantrum whhen it happens. We talk about feelings a lot before and after incidents and we all do a lot of apologizing after the storm passes. We give her a lot of choices between two acceptable options - maybe too many choices. And we let her pick the order in which she does stuff - potty first or teeth first. Etc. We do time outs in her room but can't just let her cry until she calms down when the baby is asleep because her room is right next to wear the baby sleeps. I can't physically move her anywhere - she's big and I have a back injury. We do a lot of warnings and counting to 3.
Help wise MeFi parents who have come before us!
Our little girl is loving and smart and very verbal. She has always had a lot of self control for her age. She can be a ton of fun. She is super imaginative and mischievous and sweet. We're engaged in huge power struggles right now though. They've been building all year but really amped up when her little sister was born and a couple months later when she switched to a big sometimes chaotic preschool/elementary (which she loves). (She was in a private and much more low key nursery school before). She gets less outdoor time now by far, but we don't see fewer discipline issues on the weekends when she gets tons of outdoor time. She naps at school but not at home. She has trouble going to sleep on nap days.
Big fight #1: she refuses to use the toilet. All day long. She has incredibly bladder control but we worry about UTIs. She can sleep all night and wait hours to go pee. She is very well hydrated. She rarely goes even when she obviously feels a strong urge. She has been potty trained for a year and a half. About six months ago she told us she was done with nighttime diapers. She was right - she was ready physically to hold it all night if she goes pee before bed. So now we have three huge fights a day - morning potty fight, midday potty fight, bedtime potty fight. We have tried rewards and consequences with some limited success. We're currently using a chart that ranges from "fabulous" to "consequence." She's sometimes motivated to be on fabulous or good job rather than "warning" "time out," or "consequence." We also have a jar we put tiny pompoms in when she does good things (2 for potty, 3 when she goes potty unprompted, etc.). And she can spend the pompoms on treats and TV etc. Sometimes I'm ashamed to say we lose our tempers and yell at her to just go. We have also resorted to taking away treats, TV, toys, and activities as a consequence. That works sometimes but less and less. This is also part of her general resistance to bedtime, but it's not only a bedtime battle.
Big fight #2: She often loses her self control during bedtime and has a full blown screaming/crying fit while her baby sister is sleeping. We're currently trying to gently teach the baby to sleep, and the baby is already a tricky and easily roused sleeper. So you can imagine how stressed this tantrums right next to the baby's (our) bedroom make us. We all get very amped up. It's stressful and sad and oh so frustrating for all of us. We've tried talking about good behavior in advance. We've tried bribes. We've tried consequences. At this point 50-75% of the nights this happens. And then once she's settled in bed, finally having used the toilet and brushed teeth and put on PJs and had a story and had the fan turned on and her light turned on the lowest setting and her door closed (her Rules), she stays up until 9 or 9:30 coming up with excuses for why she can't go to bed. The next morning we have to wake her for school. We've tried earlier and later bedtimes with no luck.
Any advice? It's like she runs out of self control. (Although to be fair the morning routine can be nearly as bad.) We're not proud of how we respond (a lot of stern talking and some yelling) and what we're doing isn't working well. We have a bad habit of coming up with consequences on the fly we won't enforce or don't want to enforce. We're working on that. We're trying to be more measured and give more consistent consequences. She's perfectly willing to cut off her nose to spite her face though she does throw a tantrum whhen it happens. We talk about feelings a lot before and after incidents and we all do a lot of apologizing after the storm passes. We give her a lot of choices between two acceptable options - maybe too many choices. And we let her pick the order in which she does stuff - potty first or teeth first. Etc. We do time outs in her room but can't just let her cry until she calms down when the baby is asleep because her room is right next to wear the baby sleeps. I can't physically move her anywhere - she's big and I have a back injury. We do a lot of warnings and counting to 3.
Help wise MeFi parents who have come before us!
PS.... All reports say the first night is awful, second night maybe, too. But it doesn't take long before it starts to work. I would commit to one week.
posted by raisingsand at 9:21 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by raisingsand at 9:21 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also have a fabulous threenager and we also had potty struggles when her sister was born a few months ago. We opted to just let it be. We put a small potty in her room, gave her access to pullups if she wanted them (she was already well potty trained but we were literally just like 'fine, do whatever, urinate where you please'), gave her free access to her bathroom with a stool and told her she was in charge of her own toileting now. If she wanted to wear a pullup she could but she would be changing it (that happened for half a day and quickly lost it's appeal), told her she could use her little potty or her big potty and there weren't going to be any more prompts. She held it for a lot of the first two days and peed in secret in her little potty which I'd then dump when she wasn't paying attention and after that she just kinda did her own thing. The first week there was a lot of weird peeing in secret but I guess she realized we were serious and that going potty wasn't a big deal and now she just uses the big potty like it's no big deal. Toileting struggles are hard and even though this works for us it might not work for you but I really hope it does. Solidarity fellow parent!
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 9:24 AM on December 5, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 9:24 AM on December 5, 2015 [27 favorites]
You're on to something with your suspicion that you're offering too many choices. Our preschool director/parenting guru suggests tightening boundaries & routines in these situations. Give her the most stable & reliable patterns you can. If there's wiggle room, she's going to just keep testing how much wiggling she can do. Be firm and loving and consistent. The other great suggestion she gave us is that you can sit down with her and say "we talked to a doctor/teacher/expert/whatever and found out we've been doing this wrong! We never had a 3 year old before, so we didn't know. And now we learned the right way to do [new routine] so that's what we're going to do from now on."
posted by judith at 9:33 AM on December 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by judith at 9:33 AM on December 5, 2015 [7 favorites]
#1: Our 3-years-and-10-month old has finally gone an entire week with only two very small accidents (I mention the months because a 3y/o is very different to a nearly 4y/o - if your kid is closer to 3 they still have a lot of time to figure this out). Before that we were in a very similar situation to you - refusing to go, saying they didn't need to go when they clearly did, lots of accidents, us losing our tempers.
We decided to not make a big deal out of accidents - NO punishments, shouting, consequences, just "oh dear, let's get you cleaned up then" - but make a really big deal about using the toilet, having no accidents at nursery, and making it a full day with no accidents. We got the kid's toilet seat thing so they could use the grown-up toilet instead of the potty. Lots of praise, high-fives, and saying how proud we were and how grown up they were. We also had a sticker chart that would result in a big prize when completed (it was like 40 stickers to finish) - initially we gave out stickers for every time they used the toilet with us, and every day at nursery with no accidents, but they started earning them so fast we moved to a sticker for a whole day without accidents. Anyway, today they finished it and earned the Batman robot Lego set they'd picked out when we first started the chart.
So my advice: instead of spending pompoms on small things which are easily ignored, try saying "when the jar is full you get [big prize she has chosen]". It's harder to turn down an awesome prize than it is to turn down watching a bit of TV.
Don't make a big deal out of accidents, it's counter productive (I know it's easier said than done but it does get easier when you accept that she will figure it out in her own time). Maybe just give a bit of advice like "you need to remember that when you feel the weewee in there, go to the toilet instead of waiting because you might wait too long".
consequences on the fly we won't enforce or don't want to enforce.
I made a decision a while ago that I would never threaten something I wasn't willing to carry out. This a) means threats are meaningful, and b) has made me learn to come up with on-the-fly consequences that are more easily carried out and not like "Christmas is cancelled!" or whatever.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 10:01 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
We decided to not make a big deal out of accidents - NO punishments, shouting, consequences, just "oh dear, let's get you cleaned up then" - but make a really big deal about using the toilet, having no accidents at nursery, and making it a full day with no accidents. We got the kid's toilet seat thing so they could use the grown-up toilet instead of the potty. Lots of praise, high-fives, and saying how proud we were and how grown up they were. We also had a sticker chart that would result in a big prize when completed (it was like 40 stickers to finish) - initially we gave out stickers for every time they used the toilet with us, and every day at nursery with no accidents, but they started earning them so fast we moved to a sticker for a whole day without accidents. Anyway, today they finished it and earned the Batman robot Lego set they'd picked out when we first started the chart.
So my advice: instead of spending pompoms on small things which are easily ignored, try saying "when the jar is full you get [big prize she has chosen]". It's harder to turn down an awesome prize than it is to turn down watching a bit of TV.
Don't make a big deal out of accidents, it's counter productive (I know it's easier said than done but it does get easier when you accept that she will figure it out in her own time). Maybe just give a bit of advice like "you need to remember that when you feel the weewee in there, go to the toilet instead of waiting because you might wait too long".
consequences on the fly we won't enforce or don't want to enforce.
I made a decision a while ago that I would never threaten something I wasn't willing to carry out. This a) means threats are meaningful, and b) has made me learn to come up with on-the-fly consequences that are more easily carried out and not like "Christmas is cancelled!" or whatever.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 10:01 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: It sounds to me like you overly concerned with her toilet activities. I am not clear on what your concern is if she does not use the toilet immediately before bedtime -- do you fear she will wet the bed? If as you say she can sleep all night without urinating, and wakes up in a dry bed, then I cannot see a problem. Same with daytime potty use. If she has very strong bladder muscles, try viewing that as a plus. I know you are worried about UTI's, however realistically the likelihood of that is slim, whereas the psychological harm of characterizing (which she surely picks up on) use of the toilet on your command as "good" and using the toilet *when she feels the need herself* as "bad" is a much greater risk.
She may be only 3, but she is entitled to autonomy over her body. Her tantrums and bedtime issues could very well be a reaction to the toileting power struggle in your household. Your daughter is actually developmentally advanced in being completely potty trained since 18 months. She is adjusting to having a new baby sister, and many children her age will actually regress to bedwetting and toilet accidents after the birth of a sibling, which she hasn't. Try to feel thrilled with her strengths! I would recommend shifting the focus from toileting to involving her as a helper with her new baby sister, e.g. "Can you help mommy/daddy by getting a diaper out for Baby?" or "I know you know some nice songs, how about singing one for Baby? - oh, look how you made her smile!" Also involve her in simple household chores such as putting a few groceries away after shopping, and heap the praise/stickers/whatever on her for that. I think you will see some very positive changes when she feels like an Important Big Sister and a valued contributing member of the household.
posted by RRgal at 10:03 AM on December 5, 2015 [26 favorites]
She may be only 3, but she is entitled to autonomy over her body. Her tantrums and bedtime issues could very well be a reaction to the toileting power struggle in your household. Your daughter is actually developmentally advanced in being completely potty trained since 18 months. She is adjusting to having a new baby sister, and many children her age will actually regress to bedwetting and toilet accidents after the birth of a sibling, which she hasn't. Try to feel thrilled with her strengths! I would recommend shifting the focus from toileting to involving her as a helper with her new baby sister, e.g. "Can you help mommy/daddy by getting a diaper out for Baby?" or "I know you know some nice songs, how about singing one for Baby? - oh, look how you made her smile!" Also involve her in simple household chores such as putting a few groceries away after shopping, and heap the praise/stickers/whatever on her for that. I think you will see some very positive changes when she feels like an Important Big Sister and a valued contributing member of the household.
posted by RRgal at 10:03 AM on December 5, 2015 [26 favorites]
You've gotta stop policing her about her toilet usage because you're pushing her towards the very thing you don't want her to get: UTIs. Let her self regulate; it sounds like she's capable of doing so already and your hyper focus on going potty when you want her to is going to undermine her healthy sense of self and self control.
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:07 AM on December 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Hermione Granger at 10:07 AM on December 5, 2015 [6 favorites]
Agreed, did your pediatrician tell you you had to make sure she was peeing more often or? And if so, did you outline this whole situation with the pediatrician? I'm guessing your ped said something about holding it being bad, but this power struggle sounds way worse. You really don't want her to learn anything other than "we go to the toilet when our body gives us the signal."
When I opened your question I was expecting to see a "has regressed from being potty trained" issue, not "is perfectly well potty trained and I'm trying to make her pee when she doesn't want to."
As far as waking the baby goes, this one is harder. Could the baby sleep in your room for a while while she's in this phase? (And then Ferberize firmly with the stopwatch method.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:35 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
When I opened your question I was expecting to see a "has regressed from being potty trained" issue, not "is perfectly well potty trained and I'm trying to make her pee when she doesn't want to."
As far as waking the baby goes, this one is harder. Could the baby sleep in your room for a while while she's in this phase? (And then Ferberize firmly with the stopwatch method.)
posted by fingersandtoes at 10:35 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
She naps at school but not at home. She has trouble going to sleep on nap days.
I have a mostly non-napping 22 month old. Nap days are 2 hour marathons at bedtime, she only gets like ten hours of sleep and is a crank pants the next day. When she doesn't nap, she's out in five minutes, sleeps 12 hours, and is a dream of cuddles and smiles in the morning.
Is there any way to ask school not to give her a nap? Maybe they can let her color or do some other quiet activity while the other children nap. It sounds like she's outgrown it and simply isn't tired enough at bedtime.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 AM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I have a mostly non-napping 22 month old. Nap days are 2 hour marathons at bedtime, she only gets like ten hours of sleep and is a crank pants the next day. When she doesn't nap, she's out in five minutes, sleeps 12 hours, and is a dream of cuddles and smiles in the morning.
Is there any way to ask school not to give her a nap? Maybe they can let her color or do some other quiet activity while the other children nap. It sounds like she's outgrown it and simply isn't tired enough at bedtime.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:39 AM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: My guess for her motivations is that she has a strong drive to feel in control, which has been upended with the baby, and that she also has a big need to have lots of mama/papa focus, which is again upended with the baby. Not my kid, I don't know her as well as you do, I find it easier to deal with my kid when I understand where she's coming from, and toddlers don't solve problems (I feel ignored...) in what seems like the most direct way to an adult (...so I'm going to write on the wall.)
If those were her motivations, I'd address it in two ways - openly discussing what parts of her life she controls while also giving her as much control as possible and making it crystal clear which things she does not get to control, and acknowledging that she feels ignored while making sure she's getting enough attention.
Is it really so bad if she gets a UTI? Right now, you're asking her to believe you on faith. Sometimes UTIs come with a little warning and you'd probably notice if she were having a little discomfort in the area. We talk about consequences matter-of-factly and not judgmentally like, "Well, you're not feeling good because you chose not to eat when it was lunch time. Now you're going to feel a little icky until we get to a place we can stop and find you a snack. Next time you can skip feeling bad if you just eat lunch time when it's lunch time." so you could have a similar conversation about it if she started to show discomfort.
Worst comes to worst, she gets a UTI. She probably won't do that a second time, and she'll be more likely to believe your warnings in the future.
And, some kids can really hold it a long time and be fine. If the peds aren't concerned, it's not worth being concerned over.
We got through a phase of potty control with, 'Who's going to go potty first?! You or me?! Oh, no, she's so fast, she's beating me!" and monkey around with it until she's giggling. There are times I've danced as long as she's sitting on the potty, and a holding toddler has a harder time stubbornly holding it when they're giggling.
We also just let her have a few accidents (timed to where it wasn't going to be a huge problem) and said things like "Uh oh, pee has to go and you get to choose when to let it out or it will eventually come out on its own." Our kid LOVES to be in control. We've also made it clear she's in charge of her own body.
As for bed - what's helped us is a set of reader books (like these: http://www.amazon.com/Disney-Electronic-Reader-Book-Library/dp/1450821863). As long as she's in bed, she can stay up as late as she wants to read them. She usually gets sleepy, once there's no one to spar with, and chooses to quit reading them and then we sneak back and turn off her light once she's asleep. I hate to answer all problems with "buy a product," but if you can think of something that's just entertaining enough without an LED but not TOO entertaining and then make it her responsibility to decide when to sleep, she might go with it. If nothing else, it'll keep her quiet when you're with the baby. (If you do get the disney readers, you'll have to stuff cotton in the speakers because they're stupidly loud.)
Once in a while she still stays up to 9 or 10, but I think she's just someone who has trouble shutting off the thinking and there's nothing to do for it but roll with it. Again, when she has the melt-downs, we say "You're feeling really bad right now because you're tired and losing control."
Our almost-four will also fight bedtime if she feels like she hasn't gotten enough mama-time that day. It helps if I recognize verbally how she's feeling and promise her some kind of undivided attention on the next day and then follow through. It doesn't have to be anything grand, like "I will take you to the museum" - something as simple as "I have to work all day tomorrow but when we get home, do you want to snuggle together on my bed?" is one of her favorite things. It's only ten minutes or so, most times. She can recognize that we're busy as long as we point it out and also make it clear that we'll pay attention to her at X interval and follow through.
(This strategy worked for most of her threes. Now that she's almost four, it's not working as well all the time. They just keep getting smarter.)
posted by arabelladragon at 10:44 AM on December 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
If those were her motivations, I'd address it in two ways - openly discussing what parts of her life she controls while also giving her as much control as possible and making it crystal clear which things she does not get to control, and acknowledging that she feels ignored while making sure she's getting enough attention.
Is it really so bad if she gets a UTI? Right now, you're asking her to believe you on faith. Sometimes UTIs come with a little warning and you'd probably notice if she were having a little discomfort in the area. We talk about consequences matter-of-factly and not judgmentally like, "Well, you're not feeling good because you chose not to eat when it was lunch time. Now you're going to feel a little icky until we get to a place we can stop and find you a snack. Next time you can skip feeling bad if you just eat lunch time when it's lunch time." so you could have a similar conversation about it if she started to show discomfort.
Worst comes to worst, she gets a UTI. She probably won't do that a second time, and she'll be more likely to believe your warnings in the future.
And, some kids can really hold it a long time and be fine. If the peds aren't concerned, it's not worth being concerned over.
We got through a phase of potty control with, 'Who's going to go potty first?! You or me?! Oh, no, she's so fast, she's beating me!" and monkey around with it until she's giggling. There are times I've danced as long as she's sitting on the potty, and a holding toddler has a harder time stubbornly holding it when they're giggling.
We also just let her have a few accidents (timed to where it wasn't going to be a huge problem) and said things like "Uh oh, pee has to go and you get to choose when to let it out or it will eventually come out on its own." Our kid LOVES to be in control. We've also made it clear she's in charge of her own body.
As for bed - what's helped us is a set of reader books (like these: http://www.amazon.com/Disney-Electronic-Reader-Book-Library/dp/1450821863). As long as she's in bed, she can stay up as late as she wants to read them. She usually gets sleepy, once there's no one to spar with, and chooses to quit reading them and then we sneak back and turn off her light once she's asleep. I hate to answer all problems with "buy a product," but if you can think of something that's just entertaining enough without an LED but not TOO entertaining and then make it her responsibility to decide when to sleep, she might go with it. If nothing else, it'll keep her quiet when you're with the baby. (If you do get the disney readers, you'll have to stuff cotton in the speakers because they're stupidly loud.)
Once in a while she still stays up to 9 or 10, but I think she's just someone who has trouble shutting off the thinking and there's nothing to do for it but roll with it. Again, when she has the melt-downs, we say "You're feeling really bad right now because you're tired and losing control."
Our almost-four will also fight bedtime if she feels like she hasn't gotten enough mama-time that day. It helps if I recognize verbally how she's feeling and promise her some kind of undivided attention on the next day and then follow through. It doesn't have to be anything grand, like "I will take you to the museum" - something as simple as "I have to work all day tomorrow but when we get home, do you want to snuggle together on my bed?" is one of her favorite things. It's only ten minutes or so, most times. She can recognize that we're busy as long as we point it out and also make it clear that we'll pay attention to her at X interval and follow through.
(This strategy worked for most of her threes. Now that she's almost four, it's not working as well all the time. They just keep getting smarter.)
posted by arabelladragon at 10:44 AM on December 5, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: Ahhhh it will be so hard to let go the potty power struggle because she only goes 2-3 times a day if we cajole/coerce her to go. Yes we're worried about UTIs and bed wetting. The baby sleeps with me from about 3 am to morning and wakes if I move a smidge so I can't easily get out of bed to change wet sheets if she has an accident. I like the idea of her being in control of her body but don't want nightly bed wettings or dealing with a UTI. And she doesn't go even when she clearly needs to go. Maybe we'll try though....
posted by semacd at 10:53 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by semacd at 10:53 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
What happens if you opt out of the morning and midday potty fights? Have you tried it and found that she has accidents or ends up desperately needing to pee at really inconvenient times? Or are you just anticipating that's what will happen? If you haven't experimented with letting her decide when to go, I'd try that just to see if maybe it works out better than expected. Even if she does have an accident or two, maybe she'll learn something about not waiting too long.
If it really doesn't work to let her decide, then I might try a more immediate reward. Getting pompoms to spend later may not feel rewarding enough in the moment to make going potty worthwhile. What if she got to eat a candy or watch a video/play a game on your phone right while she was going potty or immediately after?
Night is a little trickier, because if she doesn't go before bed she's likely to either wet the bed or have her sleep interrupted by needing to pee (or both.) And if she can't/won't take herself to the bathroom in the middle of the night then your sleep may get interrupted, too. So I get why you really want to make sure she pees before bed whether she feels like she needs to or not. Though with this also, if you haven't actually tried the experiment of not making her go you might want to try it once or twice just in case it turns out better than you thought.
The most important things to control seem to be nighttime peeing (if experiments prove it doesn't work to let her skip it) and toothbrushing. I think I'd be inclined to insist on those and drop the fights over the other things. I'd tell her that if she goes potty and brushes her teeth in the evening, her reward is not having to go to bed. She can stay up and do what she likes as long as it isn't loud and doesn't require your involvement and she can get into bed when she feels like it. (If she falls asleep on the floor or the couch you can put her into bed.) That ought to eliminate the loud tantrums and the battling to get her to settle down. She might not get enough sleep the first couple of days, but I bet that will be self-limiting. After a couple of nights of staying up too late, she'll probably be tired and go to sleep fairly easily.
posted by Redstart at 10:54 AM on December 5, 2015
If it really doesn't work to let her decide, then I might try a more immediate reward. Getting pompoms to spend later may not feel rewarding enough in the moment to make going potty worthwhile. What if she got to eat a candy or watch a video/play a game on your phone right while she was going potty or immediately after?
Night is a little trickier, because if she doesn't go before bed she's likely to either wet the bed or have her sleep interrupted by needing to pee (or both.) And if she can't/won't take herself to the bathroom in the middle of the night then your sleep may get interrupted, too. So I get why you really want to make sure she pees before bed whether she feels like she needs to or not. Though with this also, if you haven't actually tried the experiment of not making her go you might want to try it once or twice just in case it turns out better than you thought.
The most important things to control seem to be nighttime peeing (if experiments prove it doesn't work to let her skip it) and toothbrushing. I think I'd be inclined to insist on those and drop the fights over the other things. I'd tell her that if she goes potty and brushes her teeth in the evening, her reward is not having to go to bed. She can stay up and do what she likes as long as it isn't loud and doesn't require your involvement and she can get into bed when she feels like it. (If she falls asleep on the floor or the couch you can put her into bed.) That ought to eliminate the loud tantrums and the battling to get her to settle down. She might not get enough sleep the first couple of days, but I bet that will be self-limiting. After a couple of nights of staying up too late, she'll probably be tired and go to sleep fairly easily.
posted by Redstart at 10:54 AM on December 5, 2015
Best answer: Our go-to phrase for "I don't need to go potty" is "ok, just squeeze out two drops and that's it." It works surprisingly well. Sometimes he enjoys providing an updated estimate on the number of drops.
Spoiler alert: there are always more than two.
Otherwise, I get how much you're dreading the accidents, but I think you should try explicitly putting her in control for, say, a weekend, and seeing how it goes. Dispassionately have her do as much of the accident cleanup work as possible, and don't be mean, but make it fairly inconvenient for her. For nighttime sanity,the tip above about multiple layers of sheets with waterproof layer between is great. As is training potty in the bedroom.
Other than that, it just takes time for the 3 year old to accept that their place in the family is still secure - the first year of a new sibling is a pretty serious shock to the system. Potty wars are pretty standard fare at this time. Keep on loving her, giving her as much positive attention as possible, and hang in there.
posted by telepanda at 11:11 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Spoiler alert: there are always more than two.
Otherwise, I get how much you're dreading the accidents, but I think you should try explicitly putting her in control for, say, a weekend, and seeing how it goes. Dispassionately have her do as much of the accident cleanup work as possible, and don't be mean, but make it fairly inconvenient for her. For nighttime sanity,the tip above about multiple layers of sheets with waterproof layer between is great. As is training potty in the bedroom.
Other than that, it just takes time for the 3 year old to accept that their place in the family is still secure - the first year of a new sibling is a pretty serious shock to the system. Potty wars are pretty standard fare at this time. Keep on loving her, giving her as much positive attention as possible, and hang in there.
posted by telepanda at 11:11 AM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: The thing about power struggles with kids is that any victories are phyrric.
I think the hands off, potty in room/pull-up available/layers of sheets separated by plastic approach is really the way to go.
Regarding prevention, 80% of UTIs are caused by e. coli (that is, poop), so providing wet wipes, discreetly checking on hygiene, and demonstrating how to wipe from front to back will go a long way, as will providing her with 100% juice cranberry blend to drink.
If she does get a UTI, it will be a horrible, painful experience and a pediatric urologist looking her in the eye and telling her to pee on the potty every hour will leave quite the impression. We live in the era of antibiotics. Be grateful for that and try to chill.
My morning routine with my daughter was transformed by setting the alarm 15 minutes earlier and yelling, "Time to come snuggle with Mom!" and then hitting snooze. That ten or so minutes of cuddling has made our mornings pleasant, which I did not think was possible.
The waking up the baby at bedtime routine is a mess. All I have there is back off about toileting, put in bed with books 30 minutes before lights out, and come turn off her lamp at 8 (or whenever). Oh, and benadryl.
Can one of you drive/walk with the infant while the other does bedtime?
Good luck. Three year olds are a riot, in every sense. :)
posted by Athene at 1:32 PM on December 5, 2015
I think the hands off, potty in room/pull-up available/layers of sheets separated by plastic approach is really the way to go.
Regarding prevention, 80% of UTIs are caused by e. coli (that is, poop), so providing wet wipes, discreetly checking on hygiene, and demonstrating how to wipe from front to back will go a long way, as will providing her with 100% juice cranberry blend to drink.
If she does get a UTI, it will be a horrible, painful experience and a pediatric urologist looking her in the eye and telling her to pee on the potty every hour will leave quite the impression. We live in the era of antibiotics. Be grateful for that and try to chill.
My morning routine with my daughter was transformed by setting the alarm 15 minutes earlier and yelling, "Time to come snuggle with Mom!" and then hitting snooze. That ten or so minutes of cuddling has made our mornings pleasant, which I did not think was possible.
The waking up the baby at bedtime routine is a mess. All I have there is back off about toileting, put in bed with books 30 minutes before lights out, and come turn off her lamp at 8 (or whenever). Oh, and benadryl.
Can one of you drive/walk with the infant while the other does bedtime?
Good luck. Three year olds are a riot, in every sense. :)
posted by Athene at 1:32 PM on December 5, 2015
Disclaimer: I will probably never be the recipient of a parenting award.
When we let our daughter take care of her own toileting (see previous comment, she had been potty trained for awhile at this point) we told her if she peed her bed she needed to take her wet pajamas off, put clean ones on and sleep on her reading pallet* and we'd change her bed in the morning. She peed in the bed once and decided it was more of a hassle I change PJs than to get up and go potty so that was the end of that.
*her reading pallet is under her loft bed and is her old crib mattress on the floor with pillows and blankets.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 2:19 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
When we let our daughter take care of her own toileting (see previous comment, she had been potty trained for awhile at this point) we told her if she peed her bed she needed to take her wet pajamas off, put clean ones on and sleep on her reading pallet* and we'd change her bed in the morning. She peed in the bed once and decided it was more of a hassle I change PJs than to get up and go potty so that was the end of that.
*her reading pallet is under her loft bed and is her old crib mattress on the floor with pillows and blankets.
posted by julie_of_the_jungle at 2:19 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you decide to focus only on night time potty, I'd make it a deal - "I'll quit bothering you to potty during the day time except when it's really needed, if you potty every night before bed." That puts her in charge, in a way, but also lets her know she can relax because you're backing off.
And then stand in front of her, or right outside the door, whatever you do in your house, and sing "Let it go" really badly. Every night. That's the deal. Sit on the potty and the parents howl "Let it go!" If it's funny enough, mine would start going to bed just to get us to do that. Since I don't actually know the lyrics, I would just sing "let it go" over and over to the tune.
But then, ours will do ANYTHING if I embarrass myself in exchange.
posted by arabelladragon at 2:52 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
And then stand in front of her, or right outside the door, whatever you do in your house, and sing "Let it go" really badly. Every night. That's the deal. Sit on the potty and the parents howl "Let it go!" If it's funny enough, mine would start going to bed just to get us to do that. Since I don't actually know the lyrics, I would just sing "let it go" over and over to the tune.
But then, ours will do ANYTHING if I embarrass myself in exchange.
posted by arabelladragon at 2:52 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: If she gets a UTI, then you deal with the problem. Right now, you are trying to control something that is not your right to control, and she is responding in a very normal and predictable way. If you continue with trying to control her body, many children respond with taking it to the next level and developing an eating disorder. Let this fight go, you aren't going to win. If she wets the bed once, she should self correct after that.
Allowing her to control things that are her natural right to control should ease the bedtime drama as well. It's happened so many times, though, that she could have developed an anxiety around it. Her thinking could be that she can't cry at bedtime because Mommy will get mad, which will actually lead to her crying, because she is so afraid to cry, if that makes any sense. Children that age aren't developed enough to avoid a fearful outcome. When they think of the worse case scenario, they usually end up crashing right into it, because that is where their focus is. Give her a few weeks of you and dad not yelling and threatening and see if you can't rewire her responses.
Focus on directing instead of controlling. Think of your daughter like a strong river. She has to flow. If you put in a dam, she will destroy it and go every which way. Instead, dig out curves and bends for her to gently follow along.
posted by myselfasme at 2:55 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Allowing her to control things that are her natural right to control should ease the bedtime drama as well. It's happened so many times, though, that she could have developed an anxiety around it. Her thinking could be that she can't cry at bedtime because Mommy will get mad, which will actually lead to her crying, because she is so afraid to cry, if that makes any sense. Children that age aren't developed enough to avoid a fearful outcome. When they think of the worse case scenario, they usually end up crashing right into it, because that is where their focus is. Give her a few weeks of you and dad not yelling and threatening and see if you can't rewire her responses.
Focus on directing instead of controlling. Think of your daughter like a strong river. She has to flow. If you put in a dam, she will destroy it and go every which way. Instead, dig out curves and bends for her to gently follow along.
posted by myselfasme at 2:55 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: The only way to win the game is not to play. Really.
She's pushing back on the toilet thing because it's upsetting you and it gets her attention - even negative attention. Let her be in control of it. She might pee on the floor because she's held it in too long; she might wet the bed. Let her fail - let her be the one who decides what to do with her body. Get some extra mattress pads and set yourself up for changing sheets in the night. (if you don't want to wake the baby next to you then this is something your partner should handle).
If she can't fall asleep on nights where she's napped earlier that day, then make bedtime later those nights. This is the case with my son and it just makes everything so much easier. Sure, maybe he's not getting enough sleep, but then the bedtime routine no longer takes two hours with lots of tears on all sides.
These are arguments you cannot win with a stubborn 3-year-old. I have a very stubborn just-turned-4-year-old so trust me, I know where you're coming from. I have let him go outside without shoes or a coat in November because he refused to put any of it on... and then he realized that hey, the ground is kind of cold and unpleasant when you're walking on it with bare feet. Hey, I should stop peeing in my pants because I refuse to go when mom or dad asks me to and it's a yucky feeling. Hey, maybe I shouldn't eat that stuff off the floor because it tastes kind of gross.
Let her fail - it's a great way to learn. Praise the heck out of whatever she does that is good, and ignore, as much as you can, whatever is bad. (We tend to ignore most stuff except for hitting, and with whining, I ask my kids to say it again but without whining). She sounds really smart and bright. My son is too, and over time, we have been able to redirect his energy into being helpful, not destructive or annoying.
posted by sutel at 4:29 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
She's pushing back on the toilet thing because it's upsetting you and it gets her attention - even negative attention. Let her be in control of it. She might pee on the floor because she's held it in too long; she might wet the bed. Let her fail - let her be the one who decides what to do with her body. Get some extra mattress pads and set yourself up for changing sheets in the night. (if you don't want to wake the baby next to you then this is something your partner should handle).
If she can't fall asleep on nights where she's napped earlier that day, then make bedtime later those nights. This is the case with my son and it just makes everything so much easier. Sure, maybe he's not getting enough sleep, but then the bedtime routine no longer takes two hours with lots of tears on all sides.
These are arguments you cannot win with a stubborn 3-year-old. I have a very stubborn just-turned-4-year-old so trust me, I know where you're coming from. I have let him go outside without shoes or a coat in November because he refused to put any of it on... and then he realized that hey, the ground is kind of cold and unpleasant when you're walking on it with bare feet. Hey, I should stop peeing in my pants because I refuse to go when mom or dad asks me to and it's a yucky feeling. Hey, maybe I shouldn't eat that stuff off the floor because it tastes kind of gross.
Let her fail - it's a great way to learn. Praise the heck out of whatever she does that is good, and ignore, as much as you can, whatever is bad. (We tend to ignore most stuff except for hitting, and with whining, I ask my kids to say it again but without whining). She sounds really smart and bright. My son is too, and over time, we have been able to redirect his energy into being helpful, not destructive or annoying.
posted by sutel at 4:29 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
We had to promise our 3 year-old candy (just 1 M&M from a jar) every time she peed in the potty. It worked like a charm. We had to up the bribes to get her to poop in the potty (she had a strong habit of hiding in a quiet place like under the dining table once a day to poop). We ended up promising her a "mystery prize" every time she pooped in the potty, just little $1 toys from the dollar store, each time. We got her completely off diapers in a few months, and we've been able to phase out the bribes.
posted by w0mbat at 5:19 PM on December 5, 2015
posted by w0mbat at 5:19 PM on December 5, 2015
One of the hardest parts of parenting is figuring out when you have to just let your children make bad decisions and suffer from the consequences. You can't fight every single battle, and few of these fights are as immediately life or death as they feel like they are. Let 'em go outside without the jacket and be cold, right? Let them not eat dinner and be hungry. On the potty thing, it looks like this is the time when you have to let that happen.
posted by Andrhia at 6:11 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Andrhia at 6:11 PM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also have a three year old and we have had the exact same struggles. My daughter goes pee usually only four times in a 24 hour period, and only poops every 2-3 days. It's driving me crazy but it's only my own "shoulds" that are the problem - she's not in danger of a UTI or even having accidents, so I try to just bite my tongue. I do make her try regularly as part of our routines (after breakfast, right before we go anywhere, right before bath, and when we get to preschool). She only goes about 50% of the time, but I only ask her to try and she's willing to go along with that. We've quit making her try to go before bed, and instead get her up when we go to bed - we just sit her on her potty and she pees and signs all done and gets back in bed. I don't think she even wakes up, and then I don't have to worry about an overnight accident.
I also posted a recent question about bedtime tantrums, with bonus! worries about waking up her baby brother. The advice overwhelmingly told me to cut out the nap, which we have done for the most part, and guess what? Bedtime tantrums are gone.
I hope those steps work for your kid! I was really loathe to lose the nap, and late afternoons are now a bit more trying than they were, but the hours of screaming at bedtime were way worse.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 7:24 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also posted a recent question about bedtime tantrums, with bonus! worries about waking up her baby brother. The advice overwhelmingly told me to cut out the nap, which we have done for the most part, and guess what? Bedtime tantrums are gone.
I hope those steps work for your kid! I was really loathe to lose the nap, and late afternoons are now a bit more trying than they were, but the hours of screaming at bedtime were way worse.
posted by peanut_mcgillicuty at 7:24 PM on December 5, 2015 [1 favorite]
suck the drama out of the situation.
Stop telling her when to use the toilet. If you're worried about bed wetting, use Goodnights Disposable bed mats.
At bedtime, put her in her room at bedtime and tell her, "you don't have to sleep, but you do have to stay in your room."
She wants independence, and you want to dictate stuff to her. You've tried it your way it's making you both miserable. See what happens when you stop engaging. You may be pleasantly surprised.
Ask her daycare about her potty habits. Is she holding her pee for long times there too, or is it just a thing she does at home?
She seems pretty intelligent. Trust her.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:27 AM on December 6, 2015
Stop telling her when to use the toilet. If you're worried about bed wetting, use Goodnights Disposable bed mats.
At bedtime, put her in her room at bedtime and tell her, "you don't have to sleep, but you do have to stay in your room."
She wants independence, and you want to dictate stuff to her. You've tried it your way it's making you both miserable. See what happens when you stop engaging. You may be pleasantly surprised.
Ask her daycare about her potty habits. Is she holding her pee for long times there too, or is it just a thing she does at home?
She seems pretty intelligent. Trust her.
posted by Ruthless Bunny at 4:27 AM on December 6, 2015
It's like she runs out of self control is roughly what I might say about a parent who was ending up yelling over trying to make a kid pee on command. I can't begin to understand how this situation evolved. Trying to exert control there like that is really unhealthy for all concerned, physically and emotionally. Kids pee when they need to pee. It never would have occurred to me to try to direct that. We did not end up with bedwetting or UTI issues. (Kid was also not a frequent pee-er.)
It all sounds too punishment-oriented. +1 on the recommendation for ahaparenting.com. I had loads of success with having no punishments, but, there's a bit of a warning here in that it can't be a thing you experiment with for a couple of weeks or whatever; it requires really radically re-thinking stuff. You might also get some mileage out of Liberated Parents/Liberated Children: Your Guide to a Happier Family.
posted by kmennie at 6:23 AM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
It all sounds too punishment-oriented. +1 on the recommendation for ahaparenting.com. I had loads of success with having no punishments, but, there's a bit of a warning here in that it can't be a thing you experiment with for a couple of weeks or whatever; it requires really radically re-thinking stuff. You might also get some mileage out of Liberated Parents/Liberated Children: Your Guide to a Happier Family.
posted by kmennie at 6:23 AM on December 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yes we're worried about UTIs and bed wetting.
Bed wetting at this age is normal, and UTIs are treatable. Just use a pad, encourage good behavior, and let her have accidents. It's a better path than having a big parent-kid battle over peeing, and 95% of the time the kid will potty train herself given time and space.
posted by zippy at 2:51 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Bed wetting at this age is normal, and UTIs are treatable. Just use a pad, encourage good behavior, and let her have accidents. It's a better path than having a big parent-kid battle over peeing, and 95% of the time the kid will potty train herself given time and space.
posted by zippy at 2:51 PM on December 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Coming in to suggest you check out Aha Parenting - there are a lot of articles on the website and several of them deal with the problems you're facing.
One of the main things that we struggled with when a new sibling arrived was that the older child didn't get as much alone-with-mommy time and I think that was the root of a lot of the behavioral stuff we dealt with. Is your daughter getting any time alone with you during the day? Even five or ten minutes can make a difference (or it did with us, at least). A lot of the suggestions here helped. You basically pre-emptively "fill their bucket" with attention so they're not as inclined to act out (to get attention) later, like the bedtime tantrums. It sounds a little woo-woo but it worked for us and I wish I had thought to try it earlier. Best of luck!
posted by meggan at 12:56 PM on December 8, 2015
One of the main things that we struggled with when a new sibling arrived was that the older child didn't get as much alone-with-mommy time and I think that was the root of a lot of the behavioral stuff we dealt with. Is your daughter getting any time alone with you during the day? Even five or ten minutes can make a difference (or it did with us, at least). A lot of the suggestions here helped. You basically pre-emptively "fill their bucket" with attention so they're not as inclined to act out (to get attention) later, like the bedtime tantrums. It sounds a little woo-woo but it worked for us and I wish I had thought to try it earlier. Best of luck!
posted by meggan at 12:56 PM on December 8, 2015
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"We talked to the doctor about your potty issue. The doctor says that little girls don't go potty because they don't get enough sleep at night. That means that we will put you to bed at 8:00 tonight and every night after until you are rested enough to potty when you need to. And we have to take your books, toys, tv, etc out of your room also so you can rest."
This advice wasn't around when my kids were little, but experts say it works like a charm.
posted by raisingsand at 9:19 AM on December 5, 2015 [3 favorites]