Are lovers' quarrels classifiable as abuse?
November 27, 2015 1:09 PM Subscribe
Are lovers' quarrels classifiable as abuse?
My former partner and her therapist have apparently gotten together and created a revisionist mythology, in which she is some kind of brave feminist heroine for having escaped an "abusive" relationship This is causing me some degree of angst because I don't see that the relationship was like that at all, and think it's a spectacularly awful and hurtful insult for anybody to level at you.
We also have a kid and have no way of avoiding each other for the next decade or more, so this thing needs to get sorted out somehow.
This "abuse" idea is based on the interpretation, that when we would have heated arguments, voices would be raised and swear words might be used. There is nothing else behind it that I know of. Just that some arguments could be shouty.
(Assume that this kind of argument happened every few months, say. Not a daily or a weekly thing. An occasional but not central feature of the relationship. Other decisions, impasses, tensions and so on could be resolved quietly and maturely also, so it's not as if heated, raised voices arguments were the only way we approached issues)
To give another example of the things that are now being labelled as "abusive", the other day I used the acronym "FFS" in a text message, and when talking used the word "you" too often in an argument ("That's just like swearing! It's aggressive!")
Personally I believe this theory is completely off-the-charts batshitinsane, and think you'd be seriously challenged to find more than 5% of couples on the planet who never yelled at each other occasionally in arguments, but supposedly looking at it like that is just "normalising the abuse".
I also feel the therapist is doing more bad than good by trying to redefine typical (if sub-optimal) behaviour as pathological, and then creating some kind of victimhood narrative around it which has the potential to be extremely destructive to our future interactions.
I accept and understand that yelling or swearing aren't necessarily the best, most efficient, or most mature way of sorting tensions out, but I refute the idea that anybody who ever does that is an "abuser" by definition, and strongly refute the idea that our relationship could be retrospectively characterised as abusive.
So my questions in summary are probably twofold:
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
Assume that the quarrels are about the usual domestic stuff like "Why didn't you take the trash out? I always have to do it! Well, what about that time you left the dirty dishes in the kitchen for half a week, yada yada" - that kind of thing.
2. How should I approach this issue, with a view towards hopefully having a decent amicable relationship in future, for the good of our kid?
Right now it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser, and there's no way I'm doing that. Until I confess, I am being regarded as being in some kind of cloud of delusion: "One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."
My former partner and her therapist have apparently gotten together and created a revisionist mythology, in which she is some kind of brave feminist heroine for having escaped an "abusive" relationship This is causing me some degree of angst because I don't see that the relationship was like that at all, and think it's a spectacularly awful and hurtful insult for anybody to level at you.
We also have a kid and have no way of avoiding each other for the next decade or more, so this thing needs to get sorted out somehow.
This "abuse" idea is based on the interpretation, that when we would have heated arguments, voices would be raised and swear words might be used. There is nothing else behind it that I know of. Just that some arguments could be shouty.
(Assume that this kind of argument happened every few months, say. Not a daily or a weekly thing. An occasional but not central feature of the relationship. Other decisions, impasses, tensions and so on could be resolved quietly and maturely also, so it's not as if heated, raised voices arguments were the only way we approached issues)
To give another example of the things that are now being labelled as "abusive", the other day I used the acronym "FFS" in a text message, and when talking used the word "you" too often in an argument ("That's just like swearing! It's aggressive!")
Personally I believe this theory is completely off-the-charts batshitinsane, and think you'd be seriously challenged to find more than 5% of couples on the planet who never yelled at each other occasionally in arguments, but supposedly looking at it like that is just "normalising the abuse".
I also feel the therapist is doing more bad than good by trying to redefine typical (if sub-optimal) behaviour as pathological, and then creating some kind of victimhood narrative around it which has the potential to be extremely destructive to our future interactions.
I accept and understand that yelling or swearing aren't necessarily the best, most efficient, or most mature way of sorting tensions out, but I refute the idea that anybody who ever does that is an "abuser" by definition, and strongly refute the idea that our relationship could be retrospectively characterised as abusive.
So my questions in summary are probably twofold:
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
Assume that the quarrels are about the usual domestic stuff like "Why didn't you take the trash out? I always have to do it! Well, what about that time you left the dirty dishes in the kitchen for half a week, yada yada" - that kind of thing.
2. How should I approach this issue, with a view towards hopefully having a decent amicable relationship in future, for the good of our kid?
Right now it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser, and there's no way I'm doing that. Until I confess, I am being regarded as being in some kind of cloud of delusion: "One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."
1. Yes, if you are larger than your wife (most men are larger than women), and your yelling made her feel threatened. It sounds like you had a combative relationship and that you are continuing to be combative. Sure, she may be bonkers and her therapist might be a quack but how you react to it is what defines who you are to them.
2. Apologize. Simply say, I'm sorry that I made you feel that way. I think that it would be best if we communicated through a third party about our child for a few months until we can both recover from our time together." Avoid using you or bringing up the past or trying to win any argument. Be the bigger man and accept that she has issues, you have issues, and you both need to leave it alone for the sake of your child. Your child needs to be more important than your pride.
posted by myselfasme at 1:23 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
2. Apologize. Simply say, I'm sorry that I made you feel that way. I think that it would be best if we communicated through a third party about our child for a few months until we can both recover from our time together." Avoid using you or bringing up the past or trying to win any argument. Be the bigger man and accept that she has issues, you have issues, and you both need to leave it alone for the sake of your child. Your child needs to be more important than your pride.
posted by myselfasme at 1:23 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: if you are larger than your wife (most men are larger than women)
For what it's worth, I'm a bit bigger but not by a lot. Currently 66 kg / 145 lb. She's not much different.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:29 PM on November 27, 2015
For what it's worth, I'm a bit bigger but not by a lot. Currently 66 kg / 145 lb. She's not much different.
posted by UbuRoivas at 1:29 PM on November 27, 2015
It sounds like you are experiencing a lot of anger and frustration about things you cannot control. That is often the emotional state from which abuse arises. Without your relationship actually being abusive, it is possible that your palpable anger, frustration, and desire for control scared your wife or stressed her out a great deal. I agree with you that characterizing this as "chronic abuser 100% at fault" is a very poor decision in your wife's part and the therapist's part for the sake of the child, however. I would focus 100% on that. Do NOT defend yourself or your hurt pride or express your bafflement, merely keep repeating like a broken record, "I want to be a good father and coparent going forward. I want to be a good father and co parent going forward." Say this over and over if necessary. She will probably, over time, grow tired of this narrative or move on from it- assuming relations are better now and not substantially similar to past interactions.
posted by quincunx at 1:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by quincunx at 1:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
Yes, absolutely they can be. But I don't think we have anywhere near enough information to give you any sense of whether people would categorize yours that way. Sometimes, yelling and swearing and blaming are abusive. Sometimes they're just people being upset in pretty routine ways. And because the word "abuse," when referring to verbal or emotional abuse isn't some objective thing, like a bruise or a broken bone, there isn't always going to be a clear, objective answer. The answer is going to depend sometimes on subtle details about how the parties were feeling and how they responded to one another. Even if you could go back and videotape all of your old arguments and play them for a jury, there might still be disagreement over whether you or she or both of you behaved in ways that could be called abusive. So honestly, there's probably little to be gained (and a lot to be lost, like that decent relationship you're hoping for) in spending time arguing with her about whether she is correct to use the word "abuse" to describe your relationship. There's just not a correct answer to this question, and there probably never will be.
It sounds as though your ex-wife feels as though your behavior towards her was unacceptable and made her feel harmed or afraid. She is entitled to feel that way: people are allowed to feel however they feel. You are entitled to disagree, either about your intentions, or about whether she is reasonable to feel that way. You're not entitled to yell or swear at her if she's asked you not to--at least not if you have the goal of an amicable future relationship. Focus any conversations you have with her on the present and the future, not the past, and remain focused on your child, not on rehashing the details of old fights in your relationship or on deciding whose descriptions of those fights are more correct.
I will say that I was a little troubled by your use of the passive voice in your post: "voices would be raised and swear words might be used," "some arguments could be shouty." There is, in my opinion, a difference between a relationship in which Person A shouts and swears at Person B while Person B refrains from doing those things or only does those things after Person A has started doing them during an argument, and a situation in which both people shout and swear at one another and neither one is more often the instigator of the hostility. And sometimes, Person A uses passive voice to elide the difference between those two scenarios when talking about such situations. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just a writing quirk for you, not a way of disavowing responsibility. But think about whether your use of those phrases actually, in reality, means, "when I get angry, I yell and swear at my now-ex."
And if she has asked you to stop doing that, stop doing it, regardless of whether you believe it was okay or normal to do it in the past.
posted by decathecting at 1:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [71 favorites]
Yes, absolutely they can be. But I don't think we have anywhere near enough information to give you any sense of whether people would categorize yours that way. Sometimes, yelling and swearing and blaming are abusive. Sometimes they're just people being upset in pretty routine ways. And because the word "abuse," when referring to verbal or emotional abuse isn't some objective thing, like a bruise or a broken bone, there isn't always going to be a clear, objective answer. The answer is going to depend sometimes on subtle details about how the parties were feeling and how they responded to one another. Even if you could go back and videotape all of your old arguments and play them for a jury, there might still be disagreement over whether you or she or both of you behaved in ways that could be called abusive. So honestly, there's probably little to be gained (and a lot to be lost, like that decent relationship you're hoping for) in spending time arguing with her about whether she is correct to use the word "abuse" to describe your relationship. There's just not a correct answer to this question, and there probably never will be.
It sounds as though your ex-wife feels as though your behavior towards her was unacceptable and made her feel harmed or afraid. She is entitled to feel that way: people are allowed to feel however they feel. You are entitled to disagree, either about your intentions, or about whether she is reasonable to feel that way. You're not entitled to yell or swear at her if she's asked you not to--at least not if you have the goal of an amicable future relationship. Focus any conversations you have with her on the present and the future, not the past, and remain focused on your child, not on rehashing the details of old fights in your relationship or on deciding whose descriptions of those fights are more correct.
I will say that I was a little troubled by your use of the passive voice in your post: "voices would be raised and swear words might be used," "some arguments could be shouty." There is, in my opinion, a difference between a relationship in which Person A shouts and swears at Person B while Person B refrains from doing those things or only does those things after Person A has started doing them during an argument, and a situation in which both people shout and swear at one another and neither one is more often the instigator of the hostility. And sometimes, Person A uses passive voice to elide the difference between those two scenarios when talking about such situations. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it's just a writing quirk for you, not a way of disavowing responsibility. But think about whether your use of those phrases actually, in reality, means, "when I get angry, I yell and swear at my now-ex."
And if she has asked you to stop doing that, stop doing it, regardless of whether you believe it was okay or normal to do it in the past.
posted by decathecting at 1:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [71 favorites]
It's possible that they are referring to emotional abuse. Honestly - if your ex truly feels she was abused, I wouldn't try to minimize it or deny it. You don't have to admit to it, though. I would limit contact with your ex other than what is mandatory to do with the kids.
posted by Autumn at 1:41 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Autumn at 1:41 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
(Also, for what it's worth, I would not describe arguments that involve swearing and shouting every few months to be "occasional," and I definitely wouldn't consider it "normal." I would have left you the first time I felt the need to yell or swear at you, and probably the second time you yelled or swore at me (because the first time, I'd tell you to stop, and then I'd give you a second chance, and if that didn't work, I'd leave). Because I don't do that. And I don't stay friends with people who yell or swear at me or at the people they are supposed to love in anger either. I just don't tolerate that in my life, from anyone--not necessarily because it's always abusive, but because I don't choose to allow that kind of negative and upsetting behavior to be a part of my life. I have enough stress I can't control, so I choose to control this. And despite this policy, I have plenty of friends and loved ones and have been in many relationships, and I can count on the fingers of one hand the people I've had to drop from my life because they engaged in behavior I find unacceptable in this way. So I think your assumption that 95% of couples shout and swear at each other multiple times a year is a pretty big overestimate. I think you may have a skewed sense of what is common or normal in relationships. Yelling and swearing in relationships do not have to be common or normal, and a lot of people find them flat-out unacceptable.)
posted by decathecting at 1:42 PM on November 27, 2015 [84 favorites]
posted by decathecting at 1:42 PM on November 27, 2015 [84 favorites]
a) admit to nothing
b) apologize for nothing
c) no texts, only talk
d) any admission of any sort of abuse can easily end up in the custody-evaluator's report
e) keep it all business (i.e. just child-raising stuff)
f) get a lawyer and do exactly what they say
after you have a divorce and bullet-proof custody orders, do what you like.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:44 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
b) apologize for nothing
c) no texts, only talk
d) any admission of any sort of abuse can easily end up in the custody-evaluator's report
e) keep it all business (i.e. just child-raising stuff)
f) get a lawyer and do exactly what they say
after you have a divorce and bullet-proof custody orders, do what you like.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:44 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
How should I approach this issue, with a view towards hopefully having a decent amicable relationship in future, for the good of our kid?
Tell her you think it's best if you communicate through or in the company of a neutral third party, like an attorney.
posted by listen, lady at 1:45 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tell her you think it's best if you communicate through or in the company of a neutral third party, like an attorney.
posted by listen, lady at 1:45 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
0. get a lawyer
1. see a therapist
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
1. see a therapist
posted by Foci for Analysis at 1:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yes. Depending on your arguing style, to the person arguing with you it may well feel like abuse. If they come from a background where swearing & yelling are not the norms they may well feel like they are under attack. I come from a family where arguing & swearing is how we say hello, my husband comes from a family where his father states as a point of pride he never argues with anyone & will walk away from confrontation. My husband was terrified the first time we argued he had never seen an adult loose their temper before, which funnily enough was about taking out the trash. We only have your side of things.
You don't get to say how your EX partner views what you did. What you do get to control is how you respond to it. I'd avoid any discussions on the subject, tell her they are more appropriate for her & her therapist. Admit nothing. Be polite but distant. If divorcing get a lawyer & do what they say.
posted by wwax at 1:50 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
You don't get to say how your EX partner views what you did. What you do get to control is how you respond to it. I'd avoid any discussions on the subject, tell her they are more appropriate for her & her therapist. Admit nothing. Be polite but distant. If divorcing get a lawyer & do what they say.
posted by wwax at 1:50 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
We weren't there and can't tell you whether what occurred was abusive. I can tell you that what you're describing, whether or not I would necessarily call it abusive, is certainly what I would consider unacceptable for myself and is a situation I would walk away from and would encourage any friend of mine to walk away from. (Regardless of gender.)
You should not be involved in any conversations with your ex about what she works through with her therapist - nothing good is going to come of that for anyone involved. Your relationship is over. Re-hashing it together does no one any good.
Keep your conversations civil, focused on only what you need to discuss to co-parent, and stay out of the rest of it.
posted by Stacey at 1:57 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
You should not be involved in any conversations with your ex about what she works through with her therapist - nothing good is going to come of that for anyone involved. Your relationship is over. Re-hashing it together does no one any good.
Keep your conversations civil, focused on only what you need to discuss to co-parent, and stay out of the rest of it.
posted by Stacey at 1:57 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Abusers never think they're abusive, and we don't have enough information to evaluate your situation anyhow.
If she was afraid to address stuff with you because the conversation would deteriorate into yelling, swearing, or other, more insidious, hard-to-quantify things like coldness or poutiness, then absolutely she could reasonably feel she has escaped something scary and unfair. Have you done any reading on emotional abuse? I know the word must feel like a condemnation but do you know what she means by it?
You don't have to agree with her but yelling and swearing is not par for the course in many many relationships (I don't accept it in mine), and it's not "batshit insane" to want a certain level of respect in communication. Even the term"lovers' quarrels" to me indeed minimizes/attempts to normalize treatment that many mature couples find unacceptable. All couples disagree, argue, have bad moods, etc., but regularly getting "FFS"-level frustrated and disrespectful is not inevitable.
it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser
Why do you say this? Is there a way you could swallow your pride and say that you take her concerns seriously and will attempt to work with her on a more peaceful co-parenting dynamic, without saying you are buying into her whole narrative of you/your relationship?
posted by kapers at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
If she was afraid to address stuff with you because the conversation would deteriorate into yelling, swearing, or other, more insidious, hard-to-quantify things like coldness or poutiness, then absolutely she could reasonably feel she has escaped something scary and unfair. Have you done any reading on emotional abuse? I know the word must feel like a condemnation but do you know what she means by it?
You don't have to agree with her but yelling and swearing is not par for the course in many many relationships (I don't accept it in mine), and it's not "batshit insane" to want a certain level of respect in communication. Even the term"lovers' quarrels" to me indeed minimizes/attempts to normalize treatment that many mature couples find unacceptable. All couples disagree, argue, have bad moods, etc., but regularly getting "FFS"-level frustrated and disrespectful is not inevitable.
it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser
Why do you say this? Is there a way you could swallow your pride and say that you take her concerns seriously and will attempt to work with her on a more peaceful co-parenting dynamic, without saying you are buying into her whole narrative of you/your relationship?
posted by kapers at 1:59 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
There are many relationships where "heated arguments, [raised] voices… and swear words" happen never or almost never, even in the case of serious disagreements. We can't say whether your relationship was abusive but these are not necessary or universal feature of a relationships.
posted by grouse at 2:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by grouse at 2:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [24 favorites]
Uhh we can't give you a real answer on whether you were abusive but if you were YELLING and SWEARING over mundane domestic things like who took the trash out, that is not normal and kind of extreme. There is something behind that behavior if a small thing can push you to that point. I am positive that the majority of my friends' and relatives' relationships are not like that, even occasionally. Definitely nowhere close to 95%.
posted by desjardins at 2:15 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by desjardins at 2:15 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
Nobody knows what your relationship was like. Or enough of the details to be able to judge whether something was abusive or not.
A lot of people need to be out of a relationship before they can see certain behaviors were abusive. So that's not strange.
Abusers almost never think they are abusive. Or even if they do, they don't think they are bad people, in general. ("They just got caught up in the heat of the moment that one time.") So the fact that you don't think you're abusive really doesn't tell us anything, either.
Whether shouting is abusive or not depends on the nuance. As examples: If she grew up in a family where shouting led to violence (or something else Terrible), and you used this to get her to acquiesce, I would think it's abusive. If she grew up in a loud loving family, and you needed to shout to let her know you were serious about something, then it's not abusive.
I personally cannot stand it when someone swears at me, and this has actually caused arguments in my relationships. If my husband regularly shouted and swore at me (anything more often than once a year of shouting argument would be "regularly", and even if we're angry, I would not expect *any* name-calling), I would not be able to stand it. And in our specific relationship, I would definitely call such actions abusive.
On the other hand, it may be that her therapist is not very good and only understands people who are abuse victims (vs people who just needed to be able to handle emotions or whatever) and so have shoved her into this mold.
However, as someone who has been through extremely manipulative relationships, the way you are very carefully phrasing things is throwing up all sorts of alarm bells. Do I think you're an abuser? I don't know. But I do think you're probably shirking some responsibility in the tensions of your failed relationship, or glossing over some details that would not treat you favorably.
posted by ethidda at 2:19 PM on November 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
A lot of people need to be out of a relationship before they can see certain behaviors were abusive. So that's not strange.
Abusers almost never think they are abusive. Or even if they do, they don't think they are bad people, in general. ("They just got caught up in the heat of the moment that one time.") So the fact that you don't think you're abusive really doesn't tell us anything, either.
Whether shouting is abusive or not depends on the nuance. As examples: If she grew up in a family where shouting led to violence (or something else Terrible), and you used this to get her to acquiesce, I would think it's abusive. If she grew up in a loud loving family, and you needed to shout to let her know you were serious about something, then it's not abusive.
I personally cannot stand it when someone swears at me, and this has actually caused arguments in my relationships. If my husband regularly shouted and swore at me (anything more often than once a year of shouting argument would be "regularly", and even if we're angry, I would not expect *any* name-calling), I would not be able to stand it. And in our specific relationship, I would definitely call such actions abusive.
On the other hand, it may be that her therapist is not very good and only understands people who are abuse victims (vs people who just needed to be able to handle emotions or whatever) and so have shoved her into this mold.
However, as someone who has been through extremely manipulative relationships, the way you are very carefully phrasing things is throwing up all sorts of alarm bells. Do I think you're an abuser? I don't know. But I do think you're probably shirking some responsibility in the tensions of your failed relationship, or glossing over some details that would not treat you favorably.
posted by ethidda at 2:19 PM on November 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: I will say that I was a little troubled by your use of the passive voice in your post: "voices would be raised and swear words might be used," "some arguments could be shouty."
The reason for this is that I can't honestly give a 100% accurate description of what actually happened. These arguments weren't such a big thing or given much prominence until now, retrospectively. I do remember a couple of bitter ones, probably the worst of which had me storm out of the house because I was being hassled to hell and back because dinner wasn't on the table the minute she walked in the house, but was 5 minutes away, being a stir fry that was ready to go.
I am assuming we both would have had raised voices. I doubt she would have been as calm as a Buddha. But because the memory isn't perfect, it's more accurate for me to say passively that "there were raised voices" than to say 100% that we were both doing that.
I'm not even sure that every couple of months / every few months is accurate at all. "Occasionally, or every now & then", perhaps? I can't really quantify it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:22 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The reason for this is that I can't honestly give a 100% accurate description of what actually happened. These arguments weren't such a big thing or given much prominence until now, retrospectively. I do remember a couple of bitter ones, probably the worst of which had me storm out of the house because I was being hassled to hell and back because dinner wasn't on the table the minute she walked in the house, but was 5 minutes away, being a stir fry that was ready to go.
I am assuming we both would have had raised voices. I doubt she would have been as calm as a Buddha. But because the memory isn't perfect, it's more accurate for me to say passively that "there were raised voices" than to say 100% that we were both doing that.
I'm not even sure that every couple of months / every few months is accurate at all. "Occasionally, or every now & then", perhaps? I can't really quantify it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:22 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
None of us saw your interactions. But I can tell you that if she and her therapist think you were abusive there is actually a really good chance that is accurate. People who don't feel threatened don't label arguments as abuse. I can tell you most definitively that she must have felt threatened in your relationship, period.
Did you ever lay a finger on her? Did you ever throw/punch an inanimate object? How loud were you when you got yelly?
And as to it being over trivial topics, you do know that the importance of the topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the level of argument and/or abuse?
Finally, did she come from a background of abuse that might color the arguments? If so, then maybe you have a point. But regardless, there is no way we can tell, and from what I have seen in life, it's entirely possible you are in abuse territory and unaware of it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:26 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did you ever lay a finger on her? Did you ever throw/punch an inanimate object? How loud were you when you got yelly?
And as to it being over trivial topics, you do know that the importance of the topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the level of argument and/or abuse?
Finally, did she come from a background of abuse that might color the arguments? If so, then maybe you have a point. But regardless, there is no way we can tell, and from what I have seen in life, it's entirely possible you are in abuse territory and unaware of it.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 2:26 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Erm... Why are you texting "for fuck's sake" to your ex?
I agree that you should talk to a lawyer and limit your interactions with your ex. The two of you MASSIVELY do not agree on stuff. I NTH STRONGLY THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT GOES ON BETWEEN YOUR EX AND HER THERAPIST.
What about a mediator if you have custody or parenting issues?
If you are seen as abusive, yet your ex is still confronting you on it.... Either the therapist is giving dangerous advice -or- your ex is shit stirring and the therapist isn't really your problem.
Lawyer or mediator + a therapist for you. There's an appalling lack of structure and boundaries in the situation as it exists today. This way lies madness and a troubled childhood for your kid/s. RUN TO PROFESSIONALS WHO CAN WISELY GUIDE YOU FOR YOUR CHILD/REN'S SAKE.
PS.... Hey.... Your follow up about your height and weight was exactly the type of aggressive defensive stuff I think your ex is talking about. You were dodging the spirit of the comment and you were argumentative instead of putting some thought into the spirit of the comment, which is how things might look from a woman's perspective. You kinda proved your ex's point right there. Your point is that you should not be hearing from your ex about past mistakes, and I support that. It's zero none of your business how she processes the break up. Don't be bossy and aggressive with your children for your own sake - you will feel badly about that when they've grown up if you do. Work on being a great father. If you want to be a better partner next time, therapy and some self-reflection would be great. You do seem to need tools to deal with conflict. But who doesn't? We're all a work in progress. You can use this feedback to become a better person. Stop personalizing things with your ex, though. That ship has sailed. Let it go.
posted by jbenben at 2:27 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
I agree that you should talk to a lawyer and limit your interactions with your ex. The two of you MASSIVELY do not agree on stuff. I NTH STRONGLY THAT YOU SHOULD HAVE ZERO KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT GOES ON BETWEEN YOUR EX AND HER THERAPIST.
What about a mediator if you have custody or parenting issues?
If you are seen as abusive, yet your ex is still confronting you on it.... Either the therapist is giving dangerous advice -or- your ex is shit stirring and the therapist isn't really your problem.
Lawyer or mediator + a therapist for you. There's an appalling lack of structure and boundaries in the situation as it exists today. This way lies madness and a troubled childhood for your kid/s. RUN TO PROFESSIONALS WHO CAN WISELY GUIDE YOU FOR YOUR CHILD/REN'S SAKE.
PS.... Hey.... Your follow up about your height and weight was exactly the type of aggressive defensive stuff I think your ex is talking about. You were dodging the spirit of the comment and you were argumentative instead of putting some thought into the spirit of the comment, which is how things might look from a woman's perspective. You kinda proved your ex's point right there. Your point is that you should not be hearing from your ex about past mistakes, and I support that. It's zero none of your business how she processes the break up. Don't be bossy and aggressive with your children for your own sake - you will feel badly about that when they've grown up if you do. Work on being a great father. If you want to be a better partner next time, therapy and some self-reflection would be great. You do seem to need tools to deal with conflict. But who doesn't? We're all a work in progress. You can use this feedback to become a better person. Stop personalizing things with your ex, though. That ship has sailed. Let it go.
posted by jbenben at 2:27 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
You can't control the narrative built by your ex- and her therapist. Others in this thread have given good advice about how to avoid fanning those flames further. An argument can certainly be abusive, even without raised voices or swearing. For your own curiosity, you might Google "things abusers say" and see how well they fit you.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:28 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can't control the narrative built by your ex- and her therapist. Others in this thread have given good advice about how to avoid fanning those flames further. An argument can certainly be abusive, even without raised voices or swearing. For your own curiosity, you might Google "things abusers say" and see how well they fit you.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 2:28 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why not see if you can find a therapist and work some of this out with them? More extended conversations with a good therapist will help you get a fix on whether something could reasonably be construed as abusive or not (something we can't tell you). I think this kind of question is really, really difficult to resolve over the internet for all kinds of reasons.
One way to think about this, assuming that you are a person of good faith, is to steer away from the whole "am I am abuser" issue and think "how can I behave well in conflicts? how can I understand how I get into angry and toxic interactions and stop that?". It's quite possible that you're a great guy 95% of the time and that because of your upbringing or socialization or whatever, you got into this dynamic with your ex that was just really shitty and bad. Was it actually "abuse"? I don't know. Was it mostly your fault? I don't know. It could be mutual interpersonal crap and your ex has developed a weird narrative with her therapist to make herself feel better - therapists aren't mind-readers.
The one thing you do know is that you control your own actions, and you have the ability to figure out why you were yelling and swearing, and how to avoid doing that. Is it all about your own anger and bad behavior? Maybe. Is it that you and your ex had a toxic dynamic together? Maybe. Either way, you can process what happened and learn not to get into that situation again.
posted by Frowner at 2:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
One way to think about this, assuming that you are a person of good faith, is to steer away from the whole "am I am abuser" issue and think "how can I behave well in conflicts? how can I understand how I get into angry and toxic interactions and stop that?". It's quite possible that you're a great guy 95% of the time and that because of your upbringing or socialization or whatever, you got into this dynamic with your ex that was just really shitty and bad. Was it actually "abuse"? I don't know. Was it mostly your fault? I don't know. It could be mutual interpersonal crap and your ex has developed a weird narrative with her therapist to make herself feel better - therapists aren't mind-readers.
The one thing you do know is that you control your own actions, and you have the ability to figure out why you were yelling and swearing, and how to avoid doing that. Is it all about your own anger and bad behavior? Maybe. Is it that you and your ex had a toxic dynamic together? Maybe. Either way, you can process what happened and learn not to get into that situation again.
posted by Frowner at 2:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
I am not going to weigh in on whether or not I think your relationship with your wife was abusive. There is no way to know that. I will say that abusers can sometimes try to turn the tables on their victims by saying the victim is actually the abusive one. Abusers of often fantastic manipulators, quite capable of pulling the wool over even an experienced therapists eyes. If you really feel the accusations are unreasonable, follow the excellent advice here, get a lawyer and see a therapist. Do not engage with your ex without a third party present.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:35 PM on November 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:35 PM on November 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'll come out and say it: You sound like an abuser to me.
How do I know?
You don't take responsibility for your actions ("there was shouting"). You don't seem to care how you come across to others ("we're about the same size", not considering that men are often threatening to women, regardless of size). You use abusive language to describe others ("batshit insane") and try to make her motivations seem unrealistic (5 minutes late for dinner).
You are defending so hard that you aren't taking in the lesson this experience is supposed to teach you. Your very defense involves verbally abusive language and impugning her motives.
I suggest that you imagine how all of this seems from her perspective and just assume that she's right. She may have her own problems, not be a good partner, etc., but that's not your concern. Just assume that she's right, no matter what. Now, reimagine the relationship from that perspective and try to see what she's seeing. This is called empathy.
Sit with this and accept it.
You don't have to admit this to anyone or say anything that will get you in legal trouble. Just try to learn from this for your own sake.
Follow the good advice above to keep it all business when you talk to your ex and to run all conversations through a neutral third party.
If you can take this in, it will be very good for you and improve your relationships with everyone you know, including all future partners.
posted by 3491again at 2:36 PM on November 27, 2015 [65 favorites]
How do I know?
You don't take responsibility for your actions ("there was shouting"). You don't seem to care how you come across to others ("we're about the same size", not considering that men are often threatening to women, regardless of size). You use abusive language to describe others ("batshit insane") and try to make her motivations seem unrealistic (5 minutes late for dinner).
You are defending so hard that you aren't taking in the lesson this experience is supposed to teach you. Your very defense involves verbally abusive language and impugning her motives.
I suggest that you imagine how all of this seems from her perspective and just assume that she's right. She may have her own problems, not be a good partner, etc., but that's not your concern. Just assume that she's right, no matter what. Now, reimagine the relationship from that perspective and try to see what she's seeing. This is called empathy.
Sit with this and accept it.
You don't have to admit this to anyone or say anything that will get you in legal trouble. Just try to learn from this for your own sake.
Follow the good advice above to keep it all business when you talk to your ex and to run all conversations through a neutral third party.
If you can take this in, it will be very good for you and improve your relationships with everyone you know, including all future partners.
posted by 3491again at 2:36 PM on November 27, 2015 [65 favorites]
> These arguments weren't such a big thing or given much prominence
By you. It's entirely possible that your ex felt very differently at the time, and only now feels safe enough to bring it up. Or she's retconning things.
Either way? Not under your control. What other people have said about not engaging on this topic, and/or only speaking with her about the kid and scheduling stuff via a neutral party: do that.
posted by rtha at 2:40 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
By you. It's entirely possible that your ex felt very differently at the time, and only now feels safe enough to bring it up. Or she's retconning things.
Either way? Not under your control. What other people have said about not engaging on this topic, and/or only speaking with her about the kid and scheduling stuff via a neutral party: do that.
posted by rtha at 2:40 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
> you'd be seriously challenged to find more than 5% of couples on the planet who never yelled at each other occasionally in arguments
Because I am a creepy looky-loo, I lurk on a group for people in trouble with the law. This idea is common there. People will be arrested, charged, for various domestic altercations. Remorse is rare, but "What couple doesn't fight now and then!" is common. (In re. an assault charge apropos of a physical fight between two grown men: "Name one man who hasn't been in a fistfight!", as though all adult males are street brawlers.) The all couples fight trope is, in my experience, common among people who fight. It's a rationalization for bad behaviour, not a fact of life. There are disagreements and disputes in healthy relationships, yes, but shouting and swearing?
posted by kmennie at 2:40 PM on November 27, 2015 [61 favorites]
Because I am a creepy looky-loo, I lurk on a group for people in trouble with the law. This idea is common there. People will be arrested, charged, for various domestic altercations. Remorse is rare, but "What couple doesn't fight now and then!" is common. (In re. an assault charge apropos of a physical fight between two grown men: "Name one man who hasn't been in a fistfight!", as though all adult males are street brawlers.) The all couples fight trope is, in my experience, common among people who fight. It's a rationalization for bad behaviour, not a fact of life. There are disagreements and disputes in healthy relationships, yes, but shouting and swearing?
posted by kmennie at 2:40 PM on November 27, 2015 [61 favorites]
Sounds to me like you're being gaslit.
posted by themanwho at 2:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by themanwho at 2:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't understand why you won't take your ex at her word and accept that this was a scary dynamic to her. This attempt to invalidate her perspective comes off as manipulative. Get all the validation you want from Internet strangers but the only thing that matters is how your ex feels about the situation.
posted by pintapicasso at 2:48 PM on November 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by pintapicasso at 2:48 PM on November 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
So hard to say. People do sometimes raise voices in frustration, and people can get emotional. I think that can happen and not be abusive. (Like "man, this is really annoying to me" or even the odd "fuck, this is hard, isn't it"). I think direct accusations, meant to serve as character assassination, that veer off the original topic (like "why do you always do this" [particularily where that's possibly in question] "this is just like you" or "fuck you") are more on the abusive side of the spectrum.
In the context of an asymmetrical relationship, even if it's quiet most of the time and "respectful" on the surface, where someone feels constantly undermined and overwhelmed, with their vision of reality continually rejected, even "occasional" abusive-ish statements can take on more influence and meaning.
No idea what happened between you. Your ex doesn't agree with you, though.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:49 PM on November 27, 2015
So hard to say. People do sometimes raise voices in frustration, and people can get emotional. I think that can happen and not be abusive. (Like "man, this is really annoying to me" or even the odd "fuck, this is hard, isn't it"). I think direct accusations, meant to serve as character assassination, that veer off the original topic (like "why do you always do this" [particularily where that's possibly in question] "this is just like you" or "fuck you") are more on the abusive side of the spectrum.
In the context of an asymmetrical relationship, even if it's quiet most of the time and "respectful" on the surface, where someone feels constantly undermined and overwhelmed, with their vision of reality continually rejected, even "occasional" abusive-ish statements can take on more influence and meaning.
No idea what happened between you. Your ex doesn't agree with you, though.
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:49 PM on November 27, 2015
Nth-ing that it's impossible to say, but that it'd be a good topic to discuss with a therapist, whether she's using this to attack you unfairly, or whether you acted in an emotionally abusive way. Swearing is a bright-line thing that I don't tend to accept, myself.
posted by salvia at 2:50 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by salvia at 2:50 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
A couple of points:
1) My first marriage involved frequent shouting matches and occasional physical altercations, started by my wife (who grew up in an abusive family). After I threatened to leave, the physical stuff ended, but the yelling continued, and I started to think of it as "normal." In my second marriage, there are occasional differences of opinion but we never raise our voices significantly, let alone yell or curse. I now realize that my former situation was not at all normal. It doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be that way.
2) You're probably feeling pretty defensive and angry as you read the responses in this thread. Just remember that your emotions are about as raw as they can be; getting divorced was right up there with losing my mother in the Worst Thing Ever sweepstakes, and looking back I realize I was completely unable to think rationally about the situation or my ex for a very long time. You won't be able to take all the advice in right away, but try not to reject it out of hand. Think of it like reading for a course where you're in over your head but there's no deadline, and let it simmer until you're able to think about the issues people are raising without that instant defensive crouch (which, again, I totally understand, having been there). I wish you, your ex-wife, and especially your kid the very best of luck.
posted by languagehat at 2:51 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
1) My first marriage involved frequent shouting matches and occasional physical altercations, started by my wife (who grew up in an abusive family). After I threatened to leave, the physical stuff ended, but the yelling continued, and I started to think of it as "normal." In my second marriage, there are occasional differences of opinion but we never raise our voices significantly, let alone yell or curse. I now realize that my former situation was not at all normal. It doesn't have to be that way, and it shouldn't be that way.
2) You're probably feeling pretty defensive and angry as you read the responses in this thread. Just remember that your emotions are about as raw as they can be; getting divorced was right up there with losing my mother in the Worst Thing Ever sweepstakes, and looking back I realize I was completely unable to think rationally about the situation or my ex for a very long time. You won't be able to take all the advice in right away, but try not to reject it out of hand. Think of it like reading for a course where you're in over your head but there's no deadline, and let it simmer until you're able to think about the issues people are raising without that instant defensive crouch (which, again, I totally understand, having been there). I wish you, your ex-wife, and especially your kid the very best of luck.
posted by languagehat at 2:51 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: I appreciate all the answers so far, and will definitely be following many of the recommended steps.
And without wanting to encourage a pile-on, the hard lessons from those like 3491again and others who are more critical about my behaviour are particularly welcomed, because what I'm struggling with is the possibility that maybe I am / was like that, and am in denial?
It's an awful accusation and I don't see myself like that at all, but I wouldn't have been asking the questions unless I really wanted to understand the situation, with a view to improving things in future. Posting under my username instead of anonymously I would also like to be seen as an indication of my bona fides and integrity around this.
Please don't hold back, if you have any hard truths you think could help.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:54 PM on November 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
And without wanting to encourage a pile-on, the hard lessons from those like 3491again and others who are more critical about my behaviour are particularly welcomed, because what I'm struggling with is the possibility that maybe I am / was like that, and am in denial?
It's an awful accusation and I don't see myself like that at all, but I wouldn't have been asking the questions unless I really wanted to understand the situation, with a view to improving things in future. Posting under my username instead of anonymously I would also like to be seen as an indication of my bona fides and integrity around this.
Please don't hold back, if you have any hard truths you think could help.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:54 PM on November 27, 2015 [20 favorites]
Can you explain a bit more how you came by this information? I too wonder in what context your ex has told you about her therapist, and hiw the FFS text came to be?
posted by Omnomnom at 2:58 PM on November 27, 2015
posted by Omnomnom at 2:58 PM on November 27, 2015
Response by poster: Can you explain a bit more how you came by this information?
She came out and told me, on a few occasions recently - emails and texts, mostly. Never specifically "my therapist and I have this theory" but it's so heavily couched in therapy-speak that it's clearly most likely to be coming from the therapist, or if not from there then from self-directed self help reading in association with what's being discussed in therapy.
One aspect I find very troubling is that she's very bright, and it's worrying if a person is that smart and meanwhile has some pretty deep personal psychological issues (I'm not going into that but just trust me on that one) then they can potentially create incredibly strong and internally consistent narratives that make perfect sense, except for the part where they don't actually bear any resemblance to reality.
The problem is that I'm just as capable of doing exactly the same thing. This is probably the point where I need to follow the advice above and stop trying to interpret & re-interpret but just focus on what needs to be done in future, and especially on the welfare of our kid. Madness lies in chasing those rabbits down those rabbit holes, but damned it's difficult to stop thinking about when you're naturally inquisitive & curious about this kind of stuff...*sigh*
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:13 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
She came out and told me, on a few occasions recently - emails and texts, mostly. Never specifically "my therapist and I have this theory" but it's so heavily couched in therapy-speak that it's clearly most likely to be coming from the therapist, or if not from there then from self-directed self help reading in association with what's being discussed in therapy.
One aspect I find very troubling is that she's very bright, and it's worrying if a person is that smart and meanwhile has some pretty deep personal psychological issues (I'm not going into that but just trust me on that one) then they can potentially create incredibly strong and internally consistent narratives that make perfect sense, except for the part where they don't actually bear any resemblance to reality.
The problem is that I'm just as capable of doing exactly the same thing. This is probably the point where I need to follow the advice above and stop trying to interpret & re-interpret but just focus on what needs to be done in future, and especially on the welfare of our kid. Madness lies in chasing those rabbits down those rabbit holes, but damned it's difficult to stop thinking about when you're naturally inquisitive & curious about this kind of stuff...*sigh*
posted by UbuRoivas at 3:13 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
She can spend as much time as she wants processing your relationship, that is her right, but it is not really a concern of yours at this point. That's the beauty of ending a relationship: you're not responsible for her feelings anymore. What you are responsible for is maintaining a respectful and productive co-parenting arrangement for the foreseeable future. I would focus most of my energy on that and not on what has happened in the past. To do this you might want to get yourself into therapy to learn the communication skills you need to be a great co-parent. Therapy will also help you a lot once you begin to date again.
It sounds like both of you feed on drama to some extent. That needs to stop immediately. You cannot control her behavior but you can control your own. Work on improving yourself for your next relationship or to fully enjoy your singlehood. Stop using phrases like FFS. Treat her with respect and kindness. Keep things businesslike.
posted by scantee at 3:16 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
It sounds like both of you feed on drama to some extent. That needs to stop immediately. You cannot control her behavior but you can control your own. Work on improving yourself for your next relationship or to fully enjoy your singlehood. Stop using phrases like FFS. Treat her with respect and kindness. Keep things businesslike.
posted by scantee at 3:16 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
it's so heavily couched in therapy-speak that it's clearly most likely to be coming from the therapist, or if not from there then from self-directed self help reading in association with what's being discussed in therapy.
So what if that's the language she's using to make sense of things? If she hasn't allowed herself to articulate what she's felt until now, she might well be feeling her way through these concepts - it doesn't mean they're not truthful, to her. Also, do you sincerely believe she'd just fall in line with ideas from a therapist or self-help book that completely counter her spontaneous feelings?
Truth: deep down, you think she's "batshit". Possibility: there might be more than one unreliable narrator here.
2nd scantee.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:31 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
So what if that's the language she's using to make sense of things? If she hasn't allowed herself to articulate what she's felt until now, she might well be feeling her way through these concepts - it doesn't mean they're not truthful, to her. Also, do you sincerely believe she'd just fall in line with ideas from a therapist or self-help book that completely counter her spontaneous feelings?
Truth: deep down, you think she's "batshit". Possibility: there might be more than one unreliable narrator here.
2nd scantee.
posted by cotton dress sock at 3:31 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
what I'm struggling with is the possibility that maybe I am / was like that, and am in denial?
Accepting some label isn't important. I'm going to take your description of what happened at 100 percent face value and say: you can do better. You can decide not to raise your voice or swear at the people close to you. Actions matter more than labels.
posted by grouse at 3:38 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
Accepting some label isn't important. I'm going to take your description of what happened at 100 percent face value and say: you can do better. You can decide not to raise your voice or swear at the people close to you. Actions matter more than labels.
posted by grouse at 3:38 PM on November 27, 2015 [28 favorites]
I was really struck by what you said above and wonder if this might be something you'd want to share with your ex if she keeps bringing the issue up. You wrote:
It's an awful accusation and I don't see myself like that at all,
If you say that with something added along the lines of "but I'm giving it a lot of thought. Now I just want to focus on how we can co-parent in a positive way going forward"
This would let your ex know she's heard, and change the focus of future conversations. then if you want to talk to a therapist to delve into it more deeply, you can do so.
posted by mulcahy at 3:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's an awful accusation and I don't see myself like that at all,
If you say that with something added along the lines of "but I'm giving it a lot of thought. Now I just want to focus on how we can co-parent in a positive way going forward"
This would let your ex know she's heard, and change the focus of future conversations. then if you want to talk to a therapist to delve into it more deeply, you can do so.
posted by mulcahy at 3:47 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
One aspect I find very troubling is that she's very bright, and it's worrying if a person is that smart and meanwhile has some pretty deep personal psychological issues (I'm not going into that but just trust me on that one) then they can potentially create incredibly strong and internally consistent narratives that make perfect sense, except for the part where they don't actually bear any resemblance to reality.
Dude. Nah. Very convenient that you think she's crazy.
posted by listen, lady at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2015 [30 favorites]
Dude. Nah. Very convenient that you think she's crazy.
posted by listen, lady at 3:52 PM on November 27, 2015 [30 favorites]
it's so heavily couched in therapy-speak that it's clearly most likely to be coming from the
Therapist
Actually, the language she uses doesn't mean that the therapist "planted" this idea in her head at all. It could just as easily mean that she came to her therapist wondering if your behavior was abusive, and the therapist gave her a vocabulary for articulating the feelings she already had. That's one of the great benefits of therapy, actually. Learning that there are words and ways to talk about what before you had only experienced as a vague feeling of wrongness.
Like others said, I don't think it's possible for us outside your relationship to determine of it was abusive or not. My parents are yellers, but both of them yell equally, so for them it's not abusive. However, growing up in that environment gave me a complete loathing of yelling in relationships, and I get out at the first sign of it. If I were for some reason in a relationship where I had convinced myself it was ok for someone to yell at me, then I would have fallen into an abusive relationship.
posted by MsMolly at 3:53 PM on November 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Therapist
Actually, the language she uses doesn't mean that the therapist "planted" this idea in her head at all. It could just as easily mean that she came to her therapist wondering if your behavior was abusive, and the therapist gave her a vocabulary for articulating the feelings she already had. That's one of the great benefits of therapy, actually. Learning that there are words and ways to talk about what before you had only experienced as a vague feeling of wrongness.
Like others said, I don't think it's possible for us outside your relationship to determine of it was abusive or not. My parents are yellers, but both of them yell equally, so for them it's not abusive. However, growing up in that environment gave me a complete loathing of yelling in relationships, and I get out at the first sign of it. If I were for some reason in a relationship where I had convinced myself it was ok for someone to yell at me, then I would have fallen into an abusive relationship.
posted by MsMolly at 3:53 PM on November 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Response by poster: Dude. Nah. Very convenient that you think she's crazy.
There are things there that I cannot go into because it would be a violation of privacy. But what I meant was what I said: basically, that a person motivated to create some kind of self-serving narrative, if intelligent enough will be able to make it a very convincing one. It's just a possibility that I need to be aware of, in myself as well.
BTW, for those who asked, here's the "FFS" text word-for-word, in the context of me relaying the advice I had received from my lawyer about how to formalise a property settlement agreement: "Oh, FFS. Do you really think Victoria 25 years ago is an interchangeable legal situation with NSW 2015? (Notwithstanding that marriage is in the Federal Jurisdiction)" - because her parents decades earlier had taken a different route towards finalising their financial affairs.
The rest of the text conversation (it was long) contained nothing like that. I was told I was swearing at her and calling her names and it was abusive. So there you have it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:00 PM on November 27, 2015
There are things there that I cannot go into because it would be a violation of privacy. But what I meant was what I said: basically, that a person motivated to create some kind of self-serving narrative, if intelligent enough will be able to make it a very convincing one. It's just a possibility that I need to be aware of, in myself as well.
BTW, for those who asked, here's the "FFS" text word-for-word, in the context of me relaying the advice I had received from my lawyer about how to formalise a property settlement agreement: "Oh, FFS. Do you really think Victoria 25 years ago is an interchangeable legal situation with NSW 2015? (Notwithstanding that marriage is in the Federal Jurisdiction)" - because her parents decades earlier had taken a different route towards finalising their financial affairs.
The rest of the text conversation (it was long) contained nothing like that. I was told I was swearing at her and calling her names and it was abusive. So there you have it.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:00 PM on November 27, 2015
It doesn't matter what happened. If she perceives it as abusive it is.
But it doesn't matter with regard to your future co-parenting.
posted by k8t at 4:01 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
But it doesn't matter with regard to your future co-parenting.
posted by k8t at 4:01 PM on November 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are things there that I cannot go into because it would be a violation of privacy. But what I meant was what I said: basically, that a person motivated to create some kind of self-serving narrative, if intelligent enough will be able to make it a very convincing one. It's just a possibility that I need to be aware of, in myself as well.
You're definitely thread-sitting. You're also being defensive in a way that, frankly, makes me inclined to believe her. Sit with the responses you've gotten and think about them. Resist trying to explain them.
posted by listen, lady at 4:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
You're definitely thread-sitting. You're also being defensive in a way that, frankly, makes me inclined to believe her. Sit with the responses you've gotten and think about them. Resist trying to explain them.
posted by listen, lady at 4:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [15 favorites]
A few years ago I got out of a relationship which I didn't recognise as abusive at the time, but which I now realise was really quite emotionally abusive. Just because I didn't realise until after the fact, doesn't mean that my version of events is "revisionist". I would say that one of the biggest aspects of abuse is how the abuser sets everything up so that the victim will dismiss the behaviour, will write it off as okay. That's one of the reasons why people stay in abusive relationships. They think, "Oh, he didn't mean to lose his temper. It just happened this time" or "He says that he loves me so much, I should ignore the insults he just threw at me" or "He broke that plate, but he didn't hit me, so everything's okay" or whatever. At least I did. That's why I stayed.
While my ex recognises that his behaviour towards me was not okay, I don't think he recognises that it was abusive. That doesn't mean that it doesn't count as abuse.
Your behaviour might be abusive, or it might not. We can't tell you that. But if your ex partner has made it clear to you that she finds your behaviour unacceptable, you really need to work on that. Is it necessary to write FFS in a text message? No. Next time take a moment before you send the text message and write something else. When you were using the word "you" in an argument, were you throwing accusations around? Or were you emphasising YOU? Because those can come across as pretty horrible. Take a breath, think for a moment, and see whether you discuss the matter at hand without yelling or swearing or throwing pronouns around.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
While my ex recognises that his behaviour towards me was not okay, I don't think he recognises that it was abusive. That doesn't mean that it doesn't count as abuse.
Your behaviour might be abusive, or it might not. We can't tell you that. But if your ex partner has made it clear to you that she finds your behaviour unacceptable, you really need to work on that. Is it necessary to write FFS in a text message? No. Next time take a moment before you send the text message and write something else. When you were using the word "you" in an argument, were you throwing accusations around? Or were you emphasising YOU? Because those can come across as pretty horrible. Take a breath, think for a moment, and see whether you discuss the matter at hand without yelling or swearing or throwing pronouns around.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 4:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Since you're curious, here are some things that could border on abusive. I'm not saying you ARE abusive. I'm just taking the few things I know and then spinning off from there about how that could be part of an abusive pattern.
FFS: Dismissive, scornful, out of patience for whatever, not giving the substance any credence. If that attitude wasn't about, say, the plumber's latest excuse for not showing, but about something she deeply believed, it is a pretty scathing thing to say to someone. (On preview, hmm, certainly not the most abusive use of FFS I could come up with.)
Use of "you:" You don't say what kind of usage this was. "You are lazy" = name-calling. "You need to do ___" = directing / controlling.
Swearing: You don't give the context. The use of anger to intimidate is definitely abusive. Name-calling is abusive.
"Batshit:" Again, extremely dismissive, belittling. (Would you tell her that her idea is batshit to her face?)
Maybe it'd help to read up on emotional abuse and how it differs from the respectful expression of anger and disagreement. On the other hand, I think there's often a phase when people get super-angry and have these kind of thoughts ("my ex is a total __") without having been abusive during the marriage. Also, people who are abusive can spin things like a resistance to yield to them as abuse, so for all I know she's the bad one here.
I think I'd take her statements as an expression that she feels unsafe, attacked, disrespected ... fill in with more. And then think about how to respond to THAT more than evaluating the accuracy of this labeling of you.
posted by salvia at 4:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
FFS: Dismissive, scornful, out of patience for whatever, not giving the substance any credence. If that attitude wasn't about, say, the plumber's latest excuse for not showing, but about something she deeply believed, it is a pretty scathing thing to say to someone. (On preview, hmm, certainly not the most abusive use of FFS I could come up with.)
Use of "you:" You don't say what kind of usage this was. "You are lazy" = name-calling. "You need to do ___" = directing / controlling.
Swearing: You don't give the context. The use of anger to intimidate is definitely abusive. Name-calling is abusive.
"Batshit:" Again, extremely dismissive, belittling. (Would you tell her that her idea is batshit to her face?)
Maybe it'd help to read up on emotional abuse and how it differs from the respectful expression of anger and disagreement. On the other hand, I think there's often a phase when people get super-angry and have these kind of thoughts ("my ex is a total __") without having been abusive during the marriage. Also, people who are abusive can spin things like a resistance to yield to them as abuse, so for all I know she's the bad one here.
I think I'd take her statements as an expression that she feels unsafe, attacked, disrespected ... fill in with more. And then think about how to respond to THAT more than evaluating the accuracy of this labeling of you.
posted by salvia at 4:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
[Oops, I hit post accidentally while trying to make that comment more coherent, but hopefully it still mostly makes sense.]
posted by salvia at 4:10 PM on November 27, 2015
posted by salvia at 4:10 PM on November 27, 2015
Your relationship is over. She has feelings and high drama. You have feelings and high drama. Probably neither of you is actually crazy, because that's something people say when they're breaking up. Probably you weren't actually an abusive asshole Bad Guy (TM). Probably you're both hurt, confused, stressed over-emotional and somewhat still invested. Your egos hurt, you are upset, etc.
Stop caring. Let it go. Stop analyzing her emails for word choice. Stop filling holes in the narrative with therapists.
Here's all you can and should do: decide to be a better person moving forward. Let your past relationship go and forgive yourself and her for past mistakes. Move forward. Move on. Take the high road.
That's all she wrote. That's all there is. The rest is just white noise.
posted by quincunx at 4:11 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Stop caring. Let it go. Stop analyzing her emails for word choice. Stop filling holes in the narrative with therapists.
Here's all you can and should do: decide to be a better person moving forward. Let your past relationship go and forgive yourself and her for past mistakes. Move forward. Move on. Take the high road.
That's all she wrote. That's all there is. The rest is just white noise.
posted by quincunx at 4:11 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Response by poster: You're definitely thread-sitting. You're also being defensive in a way that, frankly, makes me inclined to believe her. Sit with the responses you've gotten and think about them. Resist trying to explain them.
OK, no more thread-sitting, I promise. The way I see it, people were asking questions for context (eg about our relative sizes) and I think I was trying to provide that context. But also being a bit defensive, sure. Back to lurking now.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:12 PM on November 27, 2015
OK, no more thread-sitting, I promise. The way I see it, people were asking questions for context (eg about our relative sizes) and I think I was trying to provide that context. But also being a bit defensive, sure. Back to lurking now.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:12 PM on November 27, 2015
I find this thread pretty frustrating to read. You seem to be genuinely concerned abt this issue and getting a lot of responses impugning your intentions for your efforts. Nothing you've described reads as abusive, IMHO, though of course I wasn't there.
posted by charlemangy at 4:20 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by charlemangy at 4:20 PM on November 27, 2015 [12 favorites]
That text alone, out of context, reads to me roughly what I said before: not necessarily abusive, but unacceptable. The swearing and more importantly the tone of it - it reads as patronizing and belittling and as a totally unnecessarily personal attack. You can say "that situation is not analogous to this one" without saying "you personally are an idiot for thinking it is." I would not continue a conversation where you were talking to me like that. I would be furious for a friend if her coparent were talking to her like that.
It still really sounds like your best move is to distance on everything except issues related to your child and to have a lawyer do as much of that communication as possible if appropriate to your situation. If you need to process this further, which is totally reasonable, your ex is not the one to do it with. If you have access to individual therapy that might be a good place to start working through these questions you have. If not, maybe some reading or journaling on your own can help. We don't have the context to do anything more than say what you are describing may well be, but is not definitely, abusive.
posted by Stacey at 4:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
It still really sounds like your best move is to distance on everything except issues related to your child and to have a lawyer do as much of that communication as possible if appropriate to your situation. If you need to process this further, which is totally reasonable, your ex is not the one to do it with. If you have access to individual therapy that might be a good place to start working through these questions you have. If not, maybe some reading or journaling on your own can help. We don't have the context to do anything more than say what you are describing may well be, but is not definitely, abusive.
posted by Stacey at 4:34 PM on November 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Some of the problem in situations like this one can be complete cultural mismatch. I was raised in a culture where couples shouted and swore and generally loved each other - that was just how they fought. Voices were almost always raised - but then, voices were also raised for good things, too. It was just a more raucous living situation overall.
When I first ran into the WASP way of handling conflict, it was a culture shock. "You mean you don't shout at all but just show your conflict in cold tones and that means Very Angry? Are you kidding?" But for them, loud voices were completely unacceptable - but they'd, say, financially cut people off in a way that would have been unheard of and monstrous in my family.
When two people with different cultural ways of fighting get into it, you are going to have deep hurt and real problems. The shoutier person is going to be outraged the less shouty person is walking away from a fight - a thing you only do if you're done with the person. The less shouty person is going to be outraged the shouty person is Raising! Their! Voice! Cursing also can be situationally dependent even within a fight, too - there's a huge difference to me between "Why do you never take out the fucking garbage?" And "Fuck you! Why do you never take out the garbage?"
In this case, it's important to understand that someone can have the experience of being treated outrageously in their relationship without the other person intending to treat them in that fashion. And that's a really important lesson to learn - because you /don't/ want to be a guy who treats women badly. So you need to look more going in at stuff like "How have you resolved conflict in the past?" If you want someone who's going to shout back when you shout, you can and should find that - but don't shout at someone who just wants to talk things out slowly, because that's going to make everybody miserable.
posted by corb at 4:49 PM on November 27, 2015 [27 favorites]
When I first ran into the WASP way of handling conflict, it was a culture shock. "You mean you don't shout at all but just show your conflict in cold tones and that means Very Angry? Are you kidding?" But for them, loud voices were completely unacceptable - but they'd, say, financially cut people off in a way that would have been unheard of and monstrous in my family.
When two people with different cultural ways of fighting get into it, you are going to have deep hurt and real problems. The shoutier person is going to be outraged the less shouty person is walking away from a fight - a thing you only do if you're done with the person. The less shouty person is going to be outraged the shouty person is Raising! Their! Voice! Cursing also can be situationally dependent even within a fight, too - there's a huge difference to me between "Why do you never take out the fucking garbage?" And "Fuck you! Why do you never take out the garbage?"
In this case, it's important to understand that someone can have the experience of being treated outrageously in their relationship without the other person intending to treat them in that fashion. And that's a really important lesson to learn - because you /don't/ want to be a guy who treats women badly. So you need to look more going in at stuff like "How have you resolved conflict in the past?" If you want someone who's going to shout back when you shout, you can and should find that - but don't shout at someone who just wants to talk things out slowly, because that's going to make everybody miserable.
posted by corb at 4:49 PM on November 27, 2015 [27 favorites]
So I have done a lot of thinking about the word abusive and basically, I think it's a word that is very powerful and important but also completely meaningless without context...just like the word love. At one time, you two loved each other and pledged your love and then things changed.
Abusive works somewhat the same way. Context is everything. Your wife is working through stuff with her therapist. I suggest that exploring the upset you're having might be something to spend a few sessions on with a therapist yourself. Because being told you were abusive is an emotional big deal. It is caustic.
But it is important to figure out for a few reasons. To be a good person. To be a good parent. To go forward co-parenting. The details of your past ultimately aren't going to matter as much as your future, and how you handle this will be a piece of how your life works out.
I would say to your wife, I'm exploring this in therapy. Thanks. Moving on...
I salute that you're asking, but this isn't a question the internet can really help you with.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:05 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Abusive works somewhat the same way. Context is everything. Your wife is working through stuff with her therapist. I suggest that exploring the upset you're having might be something to spend a few sessions on with a therapist yourself. Because being told you were abusive is an emotional big deal. It is caustic.
But it is important to figure out for a few reasons. To be a good person. To be a good parent. To go forward co-parenting. The details of your past ultimately aren't going to matter as much as your future, and how you handle this will be a piece of how your life works out.
I would say to your wife, I'm exploring this in therapy. Thanks. Moving on...
I salute that you're asking, but this isn't a question the internet can really help you with.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:05 PM on November 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Impossible to know. What you said about her hassling you when dinner was late to the point where you felt you had to leave the house makes me think there was a mutually unhealthy dynamic, and maybe you were both terrible at conflict. As you've said, there are things you can't tell us because of privacy. Therefore, we can't get even close to the whole picture. If you're concerned, see a therapist. Tell her everything. Even if you're not abusive, you'll probably learn something that will help in future relationships.
Avoid talking about this ever again with your ex. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from it. Keep your interactions with her cool, polite, and professional.
posted by Mavri at 5:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Avoid talking about this ever again with your ex. There is absolutely nothing to be gained from it. Keep your interactions with her cool, polite, and professional.
posted by Mavri at 5:08 PM on November 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
My initial reaction to your post was that it's impossible to know without more context whether or not you were abusive, but that you sure sounded defensive about the possibility.
After reading your responses in this thread, though, it's become pretty clear that your habitual way of responding to things people say to you--even when it's advice you have solicited--would be pretty hard to taken a daily basis, especially coming from a loved one. I'm not surprised your ex feels abused.
I don't think it's important for you to decide whether or not to label yourself abusive, though. I do think it's important for you to understand how you can improve your communication style in the future. This is very, very unlikely to only apply to your romantic relationships, either. You want to be a supportive, loving, effective father, right? A good friend? Coworker?
If so, you'll want to work on stepping back, listening to what someone says with the intent of understanding it rather than rebutting it. Giving people the benefit of the doubt. Trying to put yourself in their shoes. Asking questions to clarify exact intent and meaning, and only reacting when you're sure of exactly what you're reacting to.
I am guessing a good therapist would help with that, but if you don't have time and money for that in the midst of a divorce, maybe work through some self-help books. Maybe do some journaling. And practice good, generous, calm communication with people in your life who don't carry such an emotional charge. If you have a good friend, you might also ask them for feedback.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 5:30 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
After reading your responses in this thread, though, it's become pretty clear that your habitual way of responding to things people say to you--even when it's advice you have solicited--would be pretty hard to taken a daily basis, especially coming from a loved one. I'm not surprised your ex feels abused.
I don't think it's important for you to decide whether or not to label yourself abusive, though. I do think it's important for you to understand how you can improve your communication style in the future. This is very, very unlikely to only apply to your romantic relationships, either. You want to be a supportive, loving, effective father, right? A good friend? Coworker?
If so, you'll want to work on stepping back, listening to what someone says with the intent of understanding it rather than rebutting it. Giving people the benefit of the doubt. Trying to put yourself in their shoes. Asking questions to clarify exact intent and meaning, and only reacting when you're sure of exactly what you're reacting to.
I am guessing a good therapist would help with that, but if you don't have time and money for that in the midst of a divorce, maybe work through some self-help books. Maybe do some journaling. And practice good, generous, calm communication with people in your life who don't carry such an emotional charge. If you have a good friend, you might also ask them for feedback.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 5:30 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Abusive" is a very general word that few people would ever really admit to - what I can see based on what you've said both here and in the past (e.g., the text), is that you have difficulties with impulse control (why was it necessary to include FFS?).
If your ex feels that such difficulties have/are negatively affecting her, then it will have been/be very difficult for her to deal with and that, in the long term, can feel abusive.
The important thing for question #2 is that you start to control your own behavior more, such as by not feeling the need to defend yourself constantly (let things go, walk away, is this a hill you want to die on?), not using any swearing at all around her or your child, and by thinking about your ex less (at the moment you're obsessing, it's not healthy - you're not together anymore).
posted by heyjude at 5:57 PM on November 27, 2015
If your ex feels that such difficulties have/are negatively affecting her, then it will have been/be very difficult for her to deal with and that, in the long term, can feel abusive.
The important thing for question #2 is that you start to control your own behavior more, such as by not feeling the need to defend yourself constantly (let things go, walk away, is this a hill you want to die on?), not using any swearing at all around her or your child, and by thinking about your ex less (at the moment you're obsessing, it's not healthy - you're not together anymore).
posted by heyjude at 5:57 PM on November 27, 2015
One thing that I think you should consider is that your ex's therapist is only getting her side of the story. It is not fair game to say "my therapist thinks..." to someone in your life who isn't participating in these sessions. It's the equivalent of "my mom never liked you" or "my best friend thinks you're an asshole", because, of course they think that! That's how moms/friends/therapists work! Insights learned during therapy should be used to fix yourself, not fix others.
You very well may be emotionally abusive (you don't sound so to me but no one on Metafilter is going to be able to say for sure). However, I don't think your ex is acting on good faith during these conversations where her therapy work comes up. It's Therapy 101 to recognize that you're not responsible for other adults and I have to assume her therapist is not encouraging her to continue to engage with you in ways where you could continue to harm her.
If your ex is framing these conversations, however vaguely, about you being emotionally abusive as something she's doing because she cares about you ("One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."), you could tell her that you take her concerns seriously (and I think you are) but that it's not her job to fix you. From what you've said, it sounds like she has some codependency issues, but again, like everyone else on this thread, there's no way of knowing that. I mention it because it might help you to do some reading up on codependency (I personally really like Facing Codependency by Pia Mellody.)
"My therapist thinks..." is almost always used to score points because An Expert Thinks You Sound Abusive is hard to argue with without getting defensive and proving the point, much like you can't defend yourself in this thread because the more you do, the more people are going to assume proves that you are abusive because if you weren't, why would you be defensive? You can't win. But you can find your own therapist who will be on your side and I think that will be far more helpful than anyone's opinion on here. By "your side", I mean, your therapist might agree that you're abusive but the difference is that they will help you with that, whereas your ex's therapist has zero obligation to you.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 7:20 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
You very well may be emotionally abusive (you don't sound so to me but no one on Metafilter is going to be able to say for sure). However, I don't think your ex is acting on good faith during these conversations where her therapy work comes up. It's Therapy 101 to recognize that you're not responsible for other adults and I have to assume her therapist is not encouraging her to continue to engage with you in ways where you could continue to harm her.
If your ex is framing these conversations, however vaguely, about you being emotionally abusive as something she's doing because she cares about you ("One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."), you could tell her that you take her concerns seriously (and I think you are) but that it's not her job to fix you. From what you've said, it sounds like she has some codependency issues, but again, like everyone else on this thread, there's no way of knowing that. I mention it because it might help you to do some reading up on codependency (I personally really like Facing Codependency by Pia Mellody.)
"My therapist thinks..." is almost always used to score points because An Expert Thinks You Sound Abusive is hard to argue with without getting defensive and proving the point, much like you can't defend yourself in this thread because the more you do, the more people are going to assume proves that you are abusive because if you weren't, why would you be defensive? You can't win. But you can find your own therapist who will be on your side and I think that will be far more helpful than anyone's opinion on here. By "your side", I mean, your therapist might agree that you're abusive but the difference is that they will help you with that, whereas your ex's therapist has zero obligation to you.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 7:20 PM on November 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
My most recent ex basically accused me of being abusive without actually using the word. He told me I was a "panic attack of a human being" and that he couldn't be around me without feeling like he had to walk on eggshells. I took this very, very seriously, because that's how I felt around my father for a very very long time and I never, ever wanted/want to make anyone feel like that under any circumstances.
I've taken a lot of time to think about this and reflect on my behavior in that relationship. I've asked my friends about what he said and if it's commensurate with their experiences of me in times of upset or stress. I've listened very carefully to what my current partners think are problems in the relationship to check if I hear echoes, even mild ones, of what my ex told me. In the end, I think it was both of us-- I was upset with him a lot for reasons that weren't actually what was going on at the surface and didn't always express it in the way I would have chosen to under better circumstances, but his characterization of me as terrifying to be around stemmed as much from his pathological fear of conflict of any kind and inability to take blame as from my panicked subconscious terror that he was dismissing me and the inappropriate tactics I used (getting argumentative and defensive, crying, not accepting comfort.) In the end, I wasn't being my best self, but he also perceived that in a way that I'm almost certain was a projection of his prior trauma. The resolution of this is that I'm trying very, very, very hard to be more conscious in the future of what I'm actually upset about and when I'm triggering someone.
Sorry for the novel, but what I'm getting at here is that you seem to want a binary yes/no of abuse, and that worries me. You may not have been abusive, but if you are really invested in treating people around you well, you will be just as concerned that you might not have conducted yourself in the way you want, and hurt someone that you care(d) about on accident. You don't have to have been abusive to make improvements in your relationship style-- we all have room for that. Deconstructing the interations and listening to your own discomfort about how you acted, and what she's saying about you, without buying too much into narratives of blame (this is really hard!), might make you feel a bit better and more clear about what happened and where your boundaries are. Good luck.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:25 PM on November 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I've taken a lot of time to think about this and reflect on my behavior in that relationship. I've asked my friends about what he said and if it's commensurate with their experiences of me in times of upset or stress. I've listened very carefully to what my current partners think are problems in the relationship to check if I hear echoes, even mild ones, of what my ex told me. In the end, I think it was both of us-- I was upset with him a lot for reasons that weren't actually what was going on at the surface and didn't always express it in the way I would have chosen to under better circumstances, but his characterization of me as terrifying to be around stemmed as much from his pathological fear of conflict of any kind and inability to take blame as from my panicked subconscious terror that he was dismissing me and the inappropriate tactics I used (getting argumentative and defensive, crying, not accepting comfort.) In the end, I wasn't being my best self, but he also perceived that in a way that I'm almost certain was a projection of his prior trauma. The resolution of this is that I'm trying very, very, very hard to be more conscious in the future of what I'm actually upset about and when I'm triggering someone.
Sorry for the novel, but what I'm getting at here is that you seem to want a binary yes/no of abuse, and that worries me. You may not have been abusive, but if you are really invested in treating people around you well, you will be just as concerned that you might not have conducted yourself in the way you want, and hurt someone that you care(d) about on accident. You don't have to have been abusive to make improvements in your relationship style-- we all have room for that. Deconstructing the interations and listening to your own discomfort about how you acted, and what she's saying about you, without buying too much into narratives of blame (this is really hard!), might make you feel a bit better and more clear about what happened and where your boundaries are. Good luck.
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:25 PM on November 27, 2015 [16 favorites]
I'm going to speak bluntly and forthrightly here. I assure you, I say all of this out of a spirit of caring.
You are asking the wrong question here. We can't answer the question of whether you were abusive, and even if we could, it wouldn't get you anything. I mean, what are you going to do? Text her back and say "I asked the Internet and they all say I'm a swell guy so you have to admit that you were wrong and also stop thinking of me like that?" No. I know you have said that you're asking because you genuinely want to know, and I believe you, but your patterns of engagement don't match that desire -- you're engaging here like someone who wants to win an argument or at the very least get validation and sympathy for his views, not like someone open to participating in a process of self-evaluation.
I'm 100% certain that you're engaging in good faith here, and frankly just your awareness that you could have misperceptions of your own behavior and your willingness to talk about them puts you ahead of the peak of the bell curve when it comes to this sort of thing -- but the way you're framing this issue makes me think that you aren't aware of how deeply your habits and enculturation are working against you here.
But even all that is burying the lede, because the reality is: It doesn't matter what she thinks of you. It doesn't matter! You don't have to care! You don't have to care that she thinks you're abusive, she doesn't have to care that you think she's crazy! These are not topics about which the two of you are required to agree, because: You aren't in a relationship any more! You can live the rest of your life thinking that she's crazy, and she can live the rest of her life not giving a shit about your opinion of her. She can believe that you are abusive until she goes to the grave, and you can spend all that time not giving a rat's ass about it. That's all OK!
What you DO have to do, however, is learn to communicate with her civilly and respectfully, for the sake of the child you will be coparenting together. (Actually, you also need to learn how to speak about her civilly and respectfully, for the same reason.) That's something that you can do, for sure, and you can do it regardless of whether or not she does the same. In my opinion, the questions you should be asking here are "What's the best environment and circumstances for me to examine my behavior in this and other relationships, to ensure that my words and actions are as conducive as possible to the kind of relationships I want to have? How do I learn to detach from my former partner's opinion of me and of our relationship, and to recognize that this isn't something that needs to involve me? And how can I draw boundaries around our communications to help support a civil and respectful co-parenting relationship and ensure that our child doesn't bear the burden of our difficulties?"
I've seen several friends go through this process, some more successfully than others. Feel free to memail if you want more of my thoughts.
posted by KathrynT at 8:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
You are asking the wrong question here. We can't answer the question of whether you were abusive, and even if we could, it wouldn't get you anything. I mean, what are you going to do? Text her back and say "I asked the Internet and they all say I'm a swell guy so you have to admit that you were wrong and also stop thinking of me like that?" No. I know you have said that you're asking because you genuinely want to know, and I believe you, but your patterns of engagement don't match that desire -- you're engaging here like someone who wants to win an argument or at the very least get validation and sympathy for his views, not like someone open to participating in a process of self-evaluation.
I'm 100% certain that you're engaging in good faith here, and frankly just your awareness that you could have misperceptions of your own behavior and your willingness to talk about them puts you ahead of the peak of the bell curve when it comes to this sort of thing -- but the way you're framing this issue makes me think that you aren't aware of how deeply your habits and enculturation are working against you here.
But even all that is burying the lede, because the reality is: It doesn't matter what she thinks of you. It doesn't matter! You don't have to care! You don't have to care that she thinks you're abusive, she doesn't have to care that you think she's crazy! These are not topics about which the two of you are required to agree, because: You aren't in a relationship any more! You can live the rest of your life thinking that she's crazy, and she can live the rest of her life not giving a shit about your opinion of her. She can believe that you are abusive until she goes to the grave, and you can spend all that time not giving a rat's ass about it. That's all OK!
What you DO have to do, however, is learn to communicate with her civilly and respectfully, for the sake of the child you will be coparenting together. (Actually, you also need to learn how to speak about her civilly and respectfully, for the same reason.) That's something that you can do, for sure, and you can do it regardless of whether or not she does the same. In my opinion, the questions you should be asking here are "What's the best environment and circumstances for me to examine my behavior in this and other relationships, to ensure that my words and actions are as conducive as possible to the kind of relationships I want to have? How do I learn to detach from my former partner's opinion of me and of our relationship, and to recognize that this isn't something that needs to involve me? And how can I draw boundaries around our communications to help support a civil and respectful co-parenting relationship and ensure that our child doesn't bear the burden of our difficulties?"
I've seen several friends go through this process, some more successfully than others. Feel free to memail if you want more of my thoughts.
posted by KathrynT at 8:07 PM on November 27, 2015 [39 favorites]
I had an ex who told me that I was abusive towards him during our relationship (exact words were controlling, manipulative, and intimidating). All of this came out during our toxic breakup and I dismissed it as bitter last words from someone who wanted to do extra damage before leaving my life. I went through a similar process you're going through and found I couldn't easily shake off the accusation (even though we ceased contact). What hit me was that I couldn't get over it because his words rang with truth that part of me recognized but I really didn't want to acknowledge.
When I took a step back and owned my actions and words (without layering on good intentions and how these situations seemed to me) I could see the awful truth about myself. It didn't matter that I was trying to help my ex better himself, the efforts I made to change his behavior were controlling and unwanted. It didn't matter that, in my infinite wisdom *eye roll *, I knew what was best for him as a person, my attempts to "gently guide him" were suffocating. Behaviors that supported those two misguided beliefs made me an intimidating partner. We never discussed my personal revelations about myself because we were over and there wasn't a point in trying to make a repair of some sort but I did carry forward lessons about how to treat people.
I wouldn't focus on determining what you were or weren't in your relationship (at least stop trying to reconcile your perspectives with your ex - I still disagree with my ex on the finer points of why our relationship was shitty) but make a choice about who you want to be in your next relationship. For me that meant being up front about my significant relationship flaws and having a partner and network that keep me honest. I've also had to be critical of behaviors that were second nature until that point in my life because my view of normal/healthy was fucked up.
Best.
posted by toomanycurls at 9:41 PM on November 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
When I took a step back and owned my actions and words (without layering on good intentions and how these situations seemed to me) I could see the awful truth about myself. It didn't matter that I was trying to help my ex better himself, the efforts I made to change his behavior were controlling and unwanted. It didn't matter that, in my infinite wisdom *eye roll *, I knew what was best for him as a person, my attempts to "gently guide him" were suffocating. Behaviors that supported those two misguided beliefs made me an intimidating partner. We never discussed my personal revelations about myself because we were over and there wasn't a point in trying to make a repair of some sort but I did carry forward lessons about how to treat people.
I wouldn't focus on determining what you were or weren't in your relationship (at least stop trying to reconcile your perspectives with your ex - I still disagree with my ex on the finer points of why our relationship was shitty) but make a choice about who you want to be in your next relationship. For me that meant being up front about my significant relationship flaws and having a partner and network that keep me honest. I've also had to be critical of behaviors that were second nature until that point in my life because my view of normal/healthy was fucked up.
Best.
posted by toomanycurls at 9:41 PM on November 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
I don't know whether you were abusive. You say you were swearing, but did you swear AT her as in call her names? As I think that would be emotional abuse. If you just swore generally during arguments without intentionally acting threatening it's more of a grey area but one I would be less likely to call abusive if that matters. Still, regardless of whether it was abusive it wasn't a good pattern and is one that, judging by that text, still hasn't been broken.
I think, removing the loaded word "abuse" from being the main consideration, that overall your style of arguing both in person and via text is poor and is unlikely to get you anywhere. I took a two-day course in persuading and influencing through work and it really helped me to change from a similar argument style to yours to one that is based on building consensus. The new style works so much better because most of the time people want to be heard more than anything else. The style I learned is much more about listening than about trying to find the perfect, most intelligent way of making a point. I think you could really benefit from a similar course if there's a way you could take one, even on your own dime.
posted by hazyjane at 10:24 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think, removing the loaded word "abuse" from being the main consideration, that overall your style of arguing both in person and via text is poor and is unlikely to get you anywhere. I took a two-day course in persuading and influencing through work and it really helped me to change from a similar argument style to yours to one that is based on building consensus. The new style works so much better because most of the time people want to be heard more than anything else. The style I learned is much more about listening than about trying to find the perfect, most intelligent way of making a point. I think you could really benefit from a similar course if there's a way you could take one, even on your own dime.
posted by hazyjane at 10:24 PM on November 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
UbiRovas: For what its worth, I'm with charlemangy. Lots of people seem, to me, like they are reading way more into this than you've provided. For one thing I don't think the fact that you are defensive when accused of abuse can possibly be taken as evidence that you're really abusive. Feeling defensive in that situation is perfectly normal. Both abusers and non-abusers would feel the same way. So don't feel bad for feeling attacked here.
Frankly, nobody here has enough information to tell you whether you were abusive, or your partner was abusive, or you both were abusive. The only truly concrete example you gave about having to leave the house because your partner harassed you because you had dinner on the table 5 minutes after she got home instead of immediately does sound abusive, except you sound like the victim and not the perpetrator of it.
You could very well be getting gaslit here.
But nobody in this thread, including me, has enough information to say one way or another without more specific details. I understand your privacy concerns but without concrete examples you really need to take everything everyone is saying here with a massive grain of salt because nobody has much basis at all for determining if anyone is being abused and who is doing the abusing.
(But still, don't feel like your defensiveness is not normal. It may not be particularly useful or helpful but its not abusive or unusual.)
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
Frankly, nobody here has enough information to tell you whether you were abusive, or your partner was abusive, or you both were abusive. The only truly concrete example you gave about having to leave the house because your partner harassed you because you had dinner on the table 5 minutes after she got home instead of immediately does sound abusive, except you sound like the victim and not the perpetrator of it.
You could very well be getting gaslit here.
But nobody in this thread, including me, has enough information to say one way or another without more specific details. I understand your privacy concerns but without concrete examples you really need to take everything everyone is saying here with a massive grain of salt because nobody has much basis at all for determining if anyone is being abused and who is doing the abusing.
(But still, don't feel like your defensiveness is not normal. It may not be particularly useful or helpful but its not abusive or unusual.)
posted by Justinian at 11:23 PM on November 27, 2015 [9 favorites]
One point I didn't emphasize enough, though. It's possible to be in toxic relationship where both parties are abusive. Having screaming fights where you are both swearing and/or yelling at eachother could be such a situation but, again, we simply don't know from the information you've provided.
posted by Justinian at 11:24 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 11:24 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Don't discount the very real possibility that your ex and you were abusing each other. I don't have enough information to judge your situation, but, sadly I've been in a situation where retrospectively that seems the most accurate conclusion.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:36 PM on November 27, 2015
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:36 PM on November 27, 2015
On the question of how to deal with it, here's what I tried to do (after the initial shock/rage had died down): approach sorting out your divorce as if it were a business negotiation, which includes involving lawyers. You need to be professional. If the other person starts telling you stuff which would only be appropriate for people in a relationship which (you need to realise) you no longer have, ignore it. The other person's emotional state, what their therapist/grandmother/best friend thinks of you, what they did at the weekend: all irrelevant in your new relationship, which is about arranging the financial and custody details. If you wouldn't write it in an email to a boss/client, don't write it in an email/text to your ex (so yeah, no "FFS").
In the UK, I was advised that I could negotiate on email as long as it was clear that the negotiation was "without prejudice". This was easier for me than having to talk to my ex, and cheaper than insisting that all communication goes via lawyers. Your lawyer should advise you here. You may be digging a hole for yourself by putting unprofessional stuff in writing.
The place to work out whether you were in fact abusive is not in conversations with your ex. If you're worried about that, I'd discuss it with a therapist.
posted by pw201 at 1:15 AM on November 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
In the UK, I was advised that I could negotiate on email as long as it was clear that the negotiation was "without prejudice". This was easier for me than having to talk to my ex, and cheaper than insisting that all communication goes via lawyers. Your lawyer should advise you here. You may be digging a hole for yourself by putting unprofessional stuff in writing.
The place to work out whether you were in fact abusive is not in conversations with your ex. If you're worried about that, I'd discuss it with a therapist.
posted by pw201 at 1:15 AM on November 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: Thanks to everybody for your excellent and well thought out responses.
There's no way I could mark anything as "best answer" as I'm just going to take it all away and mull over it.
And if anybody else has any thoughts, please also post them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 AM on November 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's no way I could mark anything as "best answer" as I'm just going to take it all away and mull over it.
And if anybody else has any thoughts, please also post them.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:43 AM on November 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a really interesting question and I've been thinking about it for a few hours and have a few thoughts on it.
- I think that if someone feels they have been abused, it is not for others to say "well that doesn't meet my personal definition of abuse, so you are wrong to feel like that" - certainly in the therapy context, anyway.
- That said, shouting alone does not equal abuse to me. Sure, it can be part of it, but shouting is a pretty normal reaction in A Big Row and some couples seem to shout at each other all the time about trivialities and feel like it is just healthy venting. On the other hand, I've known of abusers who never so much as raise their voice.
- The red flags in your post are the minimising language (I doubt your ex thinks of these incidents as "lovers' quarrels"; "yelling" is a childish word that skirts around the emotion involved in a heated argument) and the fact that these arguments are about trivial things like putting the rubbish out. It seems like an overreaction, and that there would be nothing your ex could do to avoid getting into heated arguments (since trivial disagreements about housework are pretty much unavoidable in a live-in relationship).
- But - I have also noted that it is a favoured tactic of abusers to accuse their partners of being abusive whenever they have an extreme but normal emotional reaction to their behaviour. That is to say, if your partner seemed to be deliberately starting these arguments and then smugly pointing out that you have lost control, she may be acting abusively herself. It is also common for abusers to get unwitting third parties, such as therapists, on side, or even inventing things they have said.
- It is hard to know whether you, her, neither or both of you are abusers without having actually been there, but my general assessment is that the whole thing is fucked, the relationship is over, and you can't even be friends or speak to each other (unless it's essential child related stuff) at the moment.
- I think it would be useful for you to examine which parts of your interactions with your ex were unhealthy (without dwelling on the emotive word "abusive") and work towards not repeating them in your other relationships but I see no point in going over any of this with your ex - it is finished.
posted by intensitymultiply at 3:47 AM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
- I think that if someone feels they have been abused, it is not for others to say "well that doesn't meet my personal definition of abuse, so you are wrong to feel like that" - certainly in the therapy context, anyway.
- That said, shouting alone does not equal abuse to me. Sure, it can be part of it, but shouting is a pretty normal reaction in A Big Row and some couples seem to shout at each other all the time about trivialities and feel like it is just healthy venting. On the other hand, I've known of abusers who never so much as raise their voice.
- The red flags in your post are the minimising language (I doubt your ex thinks of these incidents as "lovers' quarrels"; "yelling" is a childish word that skirts around the emotion involved in a heated argument) and the fact that these arguments are about trivial things like putting the rubbish out. It seems like an overreaction, and that there would be nothing your ex could do to avoid getting into heated arguments (since trivial disagreements about housework are pretty much unavoidable in a live-in relationship).
- But - I have also noted that it is a favoured tactic of abusers to accuse their partners of being abusive whenever they have an extreme but normal emotional reaction to their behaviour. That is to say, if your partner seemed to be deliberately starting these arguments and then smugly pointing out that you have lost control, she may be acting abusively herself. It is also common for abusers to get unwitting third parties, such as therapists, on side, or even inventing things they have said.
- It is hard to know whether you, her, neither or both of you are abusers without having actually been there, but my general assessment is that the whole thing is fucked, the relationship is over, and you can't even be friends or speak to each other (unless it's essential child related stuff) at the moment.
- I think it would be useful for you to examine which parts of your interactions with your ex were unhealthy (without dwelling on the emotive word "abusive") and work towards not repeating them in your other relationships but I see no point in going over any of this with your ex - it is finished.
posted by intensitymultiply at 3:47 AM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Because you state you are open to insight, I am going to go through line by line of your post, and how it sent off red flags about possible abuse. I want to be clear, that a person can be hurtful and not realize it, and that people can change with work and introspection. Only you can classify what your actions mean to you, and only she can classify what your actions mean to her.
My former partner and her therapist have apparently gotten together and created a revisionist mythology, in which she is some kind of brave feminist heroine for having escaped an "abusive" relationship.
First off, you automatically put down your partner. You call her thoughts revisionist, and you but her scheming with another individual (gotten together) purposefully to accuse you. You then use “brave feminist heroine” which is used to put her down instead of the power those words are suppose to have. It is actually name calling, and taking away power from her and her right to have ideas, feelings and emotions about you. You also put abusive in quotes, implying her thoughts and feelings are fictional.
This is causing me some degree of angst because I don't see that the relationship was like that at all, and think it's a spectacularly awful and hurtful insult for anybody to level at you.
You describe your hurt, which is fine, except in this entire post you never once mention how you may have hurt her. How insults, and cursing and yelling could have been hurtful regardless of intentions of abuse.
We also have a kid and have no way of avoiding each other for the next decade or more, so this thing needs to get sorted out somehow.
You call this a thing, like an object. You just objectified her thoughts and feelings towards you. It needs to be “sorted out” is like some sort of plan. It actually doesn’t, you do to need to “fix” your reputation within her thoughts. She can think of you whatever she wants because she is an independent human being.
This "abuse" idea is based on the interpretation, that when we would have heated arguments, voices would be raised and swear words might be used. There is nothing else behind it that I know of. Just that some arguments could be shouty.
Shouty and name calling are two different things. Here instead of being passive, you could choose to use your own actions towards her. Like “I swore at her and shouted.” Yes, it can happen in healthy relationships, but in a healthy relationship each side takes ownership of their behavior and works on making sure it never happens again. It is a long and difficult process. According to her, you hurt her during these interactions. Your response could be something like “During my divorce, my wife told me that many of our interactions were hurtful. I screamed and called her names sometimes. How can I apologize?” See how that takes ownership, validates the other person's feelings and attempts to move forward?
(Assume that this kind of argument happened every few months, say. Not a daily or a weekly thing. An occasional but not central feature of the relationship. Other decisions, impasses, tensions and so on could be resolved quietly and maturely also, so it's not as if heated, raised voices arguments were the only way we approached issues)
Just because you sometimes do things correctly doesn’t mean there are sometimes way you do it wrong. You can be hurtful occasionally, regardless of how well things go. It minimizes the instances of hurtful interactions. It also ignores the fact that right now, this is central to HER.
To give another example of the things that are now being labelled as "abusive", the other day I used the acronym "FFS" in a text message, and when talking used the word "you" too often in an argument ("That's just like swearing! It's aggressive!")
No comment here, except FFS minimizes what she is saying. Also you CAN be objectifying when used too often, and I see that theme above.
Personally I believe this theory is completely off-the-charts batshitinsane, and think you'd be seriously challenged to find more than 5% of couples on the planet who never yelled at each other occasionally in arguments, but supposedly looking at it like that is just "normalising the abuse".
These are your thoughts, and it is okay to be shocked, confused and think this is coming out of nowhere. Calling your x-wife batshitinsane automatically allows you to not have to take her thoughts into consideration. It protects your identity as a good person and allows you to deny any hurt. You then put your actions into this nebulous well everybody else, allowing you not to do any introspection on yourself. It doesn’t matter what other people do, this is between you and her.
I also feel the therapist is doing more bad than good by trying to redefine typical (if sub-optimal) behaviour as pathological, and then creating some kind of victimhood narrative around it which has the potential to be extremely destructive to our future interactions.
This is just pure accusation. No one has said anything about pathological, and calling it a “victimhood narrative” is just demeaning to her thoughts and ideas. Also, the idea that everything was just fine, and your future interactions will be “extremely destructive.” Guess what, you're getting a divorce. Something has been extremely destructive before now to your relationship even if it is not abuse.
I accept and understand that yelling or swearing aren't necessarily the best, most efficient, or most mature way of sorting tensions out, but I refute the idea that anybody who ever does that is an "abuser" by definition, and strongly refute the idea that our relationship could be retrospectively characterised as abusive.
Passive voice. You could have chosen to stated that Your actions may have been hurtful, but not abusive. It denies her the right to her feelings. It also shows no consideration of how difficult this could be for her.
So my questions in summary are probably twofold:
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
Her thoughts and feelings are her own and exist. It doesn’t make you anything, but you can take responsibility for hurting her feelings, calling her names and yelling. Because regardless of the relationship these things are not good, and your goal should be to make sure no matter who you are with that those interactions don’t happen. You don’t have to be perfect, but it should be your goal, with introspection to keep improving how you cope with life stressors in the future. Lean from your mistakes.
Assume that the quarrels are about the usual domestic stuff like "Why didn't you take the trash out? I always have to do it! Well, what about that time you left the dirty dishes in the kitchen for half a week, yada yada" - that kind of thing.
This means that normal life stuff brings out yelling, which shouldn’t be the case. How can you in the future manage your stress and anger with whomever?
2. How should I approach this issue, with a view towards hopefully having a decent amicable relationship in future, for the good of our kid?
Get a lawyer and back away. You can if you desire apologize for your actions as hurtful to her. Of course in a divorce you should protect your interests.
Right now it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser, and there's no way I'm doing that. Until I confess, I am being regarded as being in some kind of cloud of delusion: "One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."
I think you should take a look at your actions, allow room for introspection and work on having more ownership and less objectification. You are in charge of labeling yourself, try not to worry too much about what she labels you now. Your relationship is over. Try to move forward and grow.
I wish you the best of luck.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:13 AM on November 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
My former partner and her therapist have apparently gotten together and created a revisionist mythology, in which she is some kind of brave feminist heroine for having escaped an "abusive" relationship.
First off, you automatically put down your partner. You call her thoughts revisionist, and you but her scheming with another individual (gotten together) purposefully to accuse you. You then use “brave feminist heroine” which is used to put her down instead of the power those words are suppose to have. It is actually name calling, and taking away power from her and her right to have ideas, feelings and emotions about you. You also put abusive in quotes, implying her thoughts and feelings are fictional.
This is causing me some degree of angst because I don't see that the relationship was like that at all, and think it's a spectacularly awful and hurtful insult for anybody to level at you.
You describe your hurt, which is fine, except in this entire post you never once mention how you may have hurt her. How insults, and cursing and yelling could have been hurtful regardless of intentions of abuse.
We also have a kid and have no way of avoiding each other for the next decade or more, so this thing needs to get sorted out somehow.
You call this a thing, like an object. You just objectified her thoughts and feelings towards you. It needs to be “sorted out” is like some sort of plan. It actually doesn’t, you do to need to “fix” your reputation within her thoughts. She can think of you whatever she wants because she is an independent human being.
This "abuse" idea is based on the interpretation, that when we would have heated arguments, voices would be raised and swear words might be used. There is nothing else behind it that I know of. Just that some arguments could be shouty.
Shouty and name calling are two different things. Here instead of being passive, you could choose to use your own actions towards her. Like “I swore at her and shouted.” Yes, it can happen in healthy relationships, but in a healthy relationship each side takes ownership of their behavior and works on making sure it never happens again. It is a long and difficult process. According to her, you hurt her during these interactions. Your response could be something like “During my divorce, my wife told me that many of our interactions were hurtful. I screamed and called her names sometimes. How can I apologize?” See how that takes ownership, validates the other person's feelings and attempts to move forward?
(Assume that this kind of argument happened every few months, say. Not a daily or a weekly thing. An occasional but not central feature of the relationship. Other decisions, impasses, tensions and so on could be resolved quietly and maturely also, so it's not as if heated, raised voices arguments were the only way we approached issues)
Just because you sometimes do things correctly doesn’t mean there are sometimes way you do it wrong. You can be hurtful occasionally, regardless of how well things go. It minimizes the instances of hurtful interactions. It also ignores the fact that right now, this is central to HER.
To give another example of the things that are now being labelled as "abusive", the other day I used the acronym "FFS" in a text message, and when talking used the word "you" too often in an argument ("That's just like swearing! It's aggressive!")
No comment here, except FFS minimizes what she is saying. Also you CAN be objectifying when used too often, and I see that theme above.
Personally I believe this theory is completely off-the-charts batshitinsane, and think you'd be seriously challenged to find more than 5% of couples on the planet who never yelled at each other occasionally in arguments, but supposedly looking at it like that is just "normalising the abuse".
These are your thoughts, and it is okay to be shocked, confused and think this is coming out of nowhere. Calling your x-wife batshitinsane automatically allows you to not have to take her thoughts into consideration. It protects your identity as a good person and allows you to deny any hurt. You then put your actions into this nebulous well everybody else, allowing you not to do any introspection on yourself. It doesn’t matter what other people do, this is between you and her.
I also feel the therapist is doing more bad than good by trying to redefine typical (if sub-optimal) behaviour as pathological, and then creating some kind of victimhood narrative around it which has the potential to be extremely destructive to our future interactions.
This is just pure accusation. No one has said anything about pathological, and calling it a “victimhood narrative” is just demeaning to her thoughts and ideas. Also, the idea that everything was just fine, and your future interactions will be “extremely destructive.” Guess what, you're getting a divorce. Something has been extremely destructive before now to your relationship even if it is not abuse.
I accept and understand that yelling or swearing aren't necessarily the best, most efficient, or most mature way of sorting tensions out, but I refute the idea that anybody who ever does that is an "abuser" by definition, and strongly refute the idea that our relationship could be retrospectively characterised as abusive.
Passive voice. You could have chosen to stated that Your actions may have been hurtful, but not abusive. It denies her the right to her feelings. It also shows no consideration of how difficult this could be for her.
So my questions in summary are probably twofold:
1. Is there any truth in the therapist's theories? Are sporadic lover's quarrels capable of being characterised as "abusive"?
Her thoughts and feelings are her own and exist. It doesn’t make you anything, but you can take responsibility for hurting her feelings, calling her names and yelling. Because regardless of the relationship these things are not good, and your goal should be to make sure no matter who you are with that those interactions don’t happen. You don’t have to be perfect, but it should be your goal, with introspection to keep improving how you cope with life stressors in the future. Lean from your mistakes.
Assume that the quarrels are about the usual domestic stuff like "Why didn't you take the trash out? I always have to do it! Well, what about that time you left the dirty dishes in the kitchen for half a week, yada yada" - that kind of thing.
This means that normal life stuff brings out yelling, which shouldn’t be the case. How can you in the future manage your stress and anger with whomever?
2. How should I approach this issue, with a view towards hopefully having a decent amicable relationship in future, for the good of our kid?
Get a lawyer and back away. You can if you desire apologize for your actions as hurtful to her. Of course in a divorce you should protect your interests.
Right now it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser, and there's no way I'm doing that. Until I confess, I am being regarded as being in some kind of cloud of delusion: "One day you will understand and I hope you do, but maybe you will never realise this massive important truth about yourself..."
I think you should take a look at your actions, allow room for introspection and work on having more ownership and less objectification. You are in charge of labeling yourself, try not to worry too much about what she labels you now. Your relationship is over. Try to move forward and grow.
I wish you the best of luck.
posted by AlexiaSky at 8:13 AM on November 28, 2015 [7 favorites]
You are putting a lot of weight on the word "abusive," as though abuse is uncommon and only perpetrated by monsters. But abuse comes in a variety of forms and degrees, is quite common, and can be perpetrated without the intent to harm. For example, a mother who loves her child can think that belittling her child is a method of motivating the child to improve, when in fact it is abusive. Intent does not preclude abuse.
Just because namecalling, yelling, and swearing are common in relationships does not mean it's a healthy way of communicating. It can be verbal abuse, which is more common than it should be.
posted by zennie at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just because namecalling, yelling, and swearing are common in relationships does not mean it's a healthy way of communicating. It can be verbal abuse, which is more common than it should be.
posted by zennie at 10:17 AM on November 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
FWIW, I suspect you are being gaslit, and that most of this thread is a real trainwreck. Stop texting, get a good lawyer and therapist. Good luck.
posted by pushing paper and bottoming chairs at 10:20 AM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by pushing paper and bottoming chairs at 10:20 AM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
People gett hung up on labels. Am I an abuser? That raises some really uncomfortable questions about self-image and of course the defenses go up. Was that thing I did abusive? Or, could it have felt abusive to her? Now we're getting somewhere. Just like someone is not "a racist person" or "a sexist person" but they may do racist or sexist things.
If it helps, you can use a different label: rather than abuse, "personally hurtful". I was in an abusive relationship = I was in a personally hurtful relationship or a relationship that damaged my self. Notice that you don't have to agree to this for it to be true. And in fact you're not asked to own the label of "abuser" but rather validate HER truth that the relationship was persobally hurtful towards her. Arguing over what abuse is on the internet is far beyond the point.
At this point thr only room for debate is that she is manufacturng her truth for some ulterior motive, e.g.to cause you pain. It's not impossible. If you see new facts starting to appear that you know didnt happen, if you feel the reality of your truth bending - I.e. you are retroactively described as violent when you know you weren't - then you have trouble and you need to protect yourself and your reality.
Could she be inventing her own pain where none existed in order to hurt you? It's possi le. Suppose she is. Or, suppose she isn't. The response should be the same: do not engahe in a debate with her about her emotional truth. A, you'll never win it if she is twisting it, and B, if it is real, you'll be abusing her more.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:32 AM on November 28, 2015
If it helps, you can use a different label: rather than abuse, "personally hurtful". I was in an abusive relationship = I was in a personally hurtful relationship or a relationship that damaged my self. Notice that you don't have to agree to this for it to be true. And in fact you're not asked to own the label of "abuser" but rather validate HER truth that the relationship was persobally hurtful towards her. Arguing over what abuse is on the internet is far beyond the point.
At this point thr only room for debate is that she is manufacturng her truth for some ulterior motive, e.g.to cause you pain. It's not impossible. If you see new facts starting to appear that you know didnt happen, if you feel the reality of your truth bending - I.e. you are retroactively described as violent when you know you weren't - then you have trouble and you need to protect yourself and your reality.
Could she be inventing her own pain where none existed in order to hurt you? It's possi le. Suppose she is. Or, suppose she isn't. The response should be the same: do not engahe in a debate with her about her emotional truth. A, you'll never win it if she is twisting it, and B, if it is real, you'll be abusing her more.
posted by PercussivePaul at 10:32 AM on November 28, 2015
My further addition is that there's a huge cultural gulf here re:cursing that makes our advice even less useful than it otherwise would be.
I absolutely think this is part of the response you're getting. Coming from the US, I would be flabbergasted if someone started a communication on a sensitive topic with "FFS." But I have a feeling this is not considered so out of the ordinary where you are.
You have a young one to think about and I think it's excellent you are taking all this under advisement. The way these concerns were raised-- the thing with the therapist-- is really hard to swallow although people seem to do it all the time. But it sounds like you have your eye on the prize in terms of keeping things good with and for your child, so I would encourage above all you to keep concentrating on that; it's the only thing that matters.
posted by BibiRose at 10:53 AM on November 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
I absolutely think this is part of the response you're getting. Coming from the US, I would be flabbergasted if someone started a communication on a sensitive topic with "FFS." But I have a feeling this is not considered so out of the ordinary where you are.
You have a young one to think about and I think it's excellent you are taking all this under advisement. The way these concerns were raised-- the thing with the therapist-- is really hard to swallow although people seem to do it all the time. But it sounds like you have your eye on the prize in terms of keeping things good with and for your child, so I would encourage above all you to keep concentrating on that; it's the only thing that matters.
posted by BibiRose at 10:53 AM on November 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Add me to the people who think you may be getting gaslit. Did you ever suspect your ex of having borderline personality disorder?
At any rate, you *must* stop engaging with your ex about this. Whether or not you were abusive (or just a jerk of a lesser caliber) is not something you want to debate with her. She could use it against you in court.
Lawyer, ASAP, and therapist for you to figure out how to disengage while you coparent. All further property negotiations should be lawyer-to-lawyer.
posted by yarly at 11:02 AM on November 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
At any rate, you *must* stop engaging with your ex about this. Whether or not you were abusive (or just a jerk of a lesser caliber) is not something you want to debate with her. She could use it against you in court.
Lawyer, ASAP, and therapist for you to figure out how to disengage while you coparent. All further property negotiations should be lawyer-to-lawyer.
posted by yarly at 11:02 AM on November 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
When your ex says 'abuse,' change it in your mind to 'inadequate respect.' Raised voices, cursing, accusations, -- all of these get in the way of a discussion. An the same with name-calling or labeling, even in mild terms like 'stubborn' or 'unfair,' especially when used in a general sense. You can ask your former partner to lower her voice, stay on the topic at hand, and so forth, specifically. It's a lot better than, "Don't talk to me that way," or even "treat me with respect."
When things get off track and you're frustrated, take the attitude that you both have things that you want and the IS a way to make it fair for both.
It would really help if you would say, "I understand that you want to be treated with respect. I agree to speak to you as I'd like to be spoken to." And ask the same of her. The natural reaction is, "why do I have to be the mature and reasonable one"? Somebody has to, and being very civil will work. BUT this doesn't mean you can't ask for what you want and need.
You'd benefit from some sessions with a therapist to learn how to communicate in a constructive way, because it's really hard without guidance. If she won't go with you, go by yourself.
posted by wryly at 12:51 PM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
When things get off track and you're frustrated, take the attitude that you both have things that you want and the IS a way to make it fair for both.
It would really help if you would say, "I understand that you want to be treated with respect. I agree to speak to you as I'd like to be spoken to." And ask the same of her. The natural reaction is, "why do I have to be the mature and reasonable one"? Somebody has to, and being very civil will work. BUT this doesn't mean you can't ask for what you want and need.
You'd benefit from some sessions with a therapist to learn how to communicate in a constructive way, because it's really hard without guidance. If she won't go with you, go by yourself.
posted by wryly at 12:51 PM on November 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
Response by poster: You're not going to be dating any time soon (right?) so you have plenty of time to consider this problem.
Correct, and correct.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:41 PM on November 28, 2015
Correct, and correct.
posted by UbuRoivas at 2:41 PM on November 28, 2015
I also suspect you're being gaslit. Those who have said you need to disengage from her immediately and only deal with her objectively, neutrally, calmly, and officially are correct. You can't do anything about her feelings or opinions, but you owe it to yourself not to get hung up on all of that.
Oh, and relationships are better when there's no shouting or swearing, imo.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:28 PM on November 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh, and relationships are better when there's no shouting or swearing, imo.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 3:28 PM on November 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I absolutely think this is part of the response you're getting. Coming from the US, I would be flabbergasted if someone started a communication on a sensitive topic with "FFS." But I have a feeling this is not considered so out of the ordinary where you are.
Nah, I'm from the same country as the OP and I would not be happy if I received a text message that said FFS in it.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 3:55 PM on November 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Nah, I'm from the same country as the OP and I would not be happy if I received a text message that said FFS in it.
posted by kinddieserzeit at 3:55 PM on November 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: So, an update FWIW: we had a kid handover today, and she said (not word for word, but just conveying the gist): "You know that thing I was talking about...you should have a serious think about it, because we created the conditions in our relationship where it was acceptable to speak to each other in ways that were damaging and inappropriate."
I replied that yes, I am, I am taking it seriously, reading further and thinking about it.
I doubt I would've been able to accept that so easily without the perspectives from all of you, so thank you for that.
I'm certain things can only get better from here.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:40 PM on November 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
I replied that yes, I am, I am taking it seriously, reading further and thinking about it.
I doubt I would've been able to accept that so easily without the perspectives from all of you, so thank you for that.
I'm certain things can only get better from here.
posted by UbuRoivas at 11:40 PM on November 28, 2015 [27 favorites]
It sounds like she acknowledged her participatory role in the intimate space dysregulation, and dropped the one-sided accusation you particularly resented in the former conversation. That's positive, and allows room for acceptance of joint failure. I think you did a good job of taking the criticism and tough love in this thread.
posted by honey-barbara at 2:15 AM on November 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by honey-barbara at 2:15 AM on November 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
That's promising. While this relationship is over regardless of what you do, there's still a lot you can save if you two manage to work out more productive ways to deal with mutual frustration. A good, respectful communication with your coparent will mean the world to your kid. It will make all the difference between a mostly-happy kid and a visit to the shrink years later talking about what a fucked up childhood it was.
As a child with divorced parents I can tell you that it wasn't the divorce that ground me down but the conflicts between my parents that followed.
If you later struggle inevitably with the conflicts of coparenting, remember that you're not doing the right thing for her or even yourself, what you're doing is saving your relationship with your kid.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:17 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
As a child with divorced parents I can tell you that it wasn't the divorce that ground me down but the conflicts between my parents that followed.
If you later struggle inevitably with the conflicts of coparenting, remember that you're not doing the right thing for her or even yourself, what you're doing is saving your relationship with your kid.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:17 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: I am somewhat troubled by the fact that she brought up a contentious topic about your relationship in front of your child.
It was phrased quite obliquely, and he probably wouldn't have understood what we were talking about.
Besides, he's been told that sometimes mummies and daddies prefer to live in different houses because otherwise they argue too much, and arguing means paying less attention to him, and he seems totally fine with that.
We actually do a lot of things quite well, I think. Like never denigrating the other coparent when alone with our son (we're on a 50/50 basis), and for his birthday all the presents were from both of us. No tug-of-wars for his affections.
And when it's coming up to a handover day, I talk up how much mummy will be looking forward to seeing him, how she'll have all kinds of nice things to do, and how I'll be looking forward myself to the next handover, so he knows he's loved and supported by both of us.
He's a great little kid: fun loving, inquisitive and gets on very well with his little peers, so he seems to be doing alright in the circumstances.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:34 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
It was phrased quite obliquely, and he probably wouldn't have understood what we were talking about.
Besides, he's been told that sometimes mummies and daddies prefer to live in different houses because otherwise they argue too much, and arguing means paying less attention to him, and he seems totally fine with that.
We actually do a lot of things quite well, I think. Like never denigrating the other coparent when alone with our son (we're on a 50/50 basis), and for his birthday all the presents were from both of us. No tug-of-wars for his affections.
And when it's coming up to a handover day, I talk up how much mummy will be looking forward to seeing him, how she'll have all kinds of nice things to do, and how I'll be looking forward myself to the next handover, so he knows he's loved and supported by both of us.
He's a great little kid: fun loving, inquisitive and gets on very well with his little peers, so he seems to be doing alright in the circumstances.
posted by UbuRoivas at 4:34 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
I think this is your real problem:
Right now it seems I am being given no room to move or option other than to confess to being a serial abuser, and there's no way I'm doing that.
The best response is to stay very calm and not to buy into the drama. Everytime she brings this up, just say "That's not the way I see it but regardless of what happened in the past, let's focused of doing a good job of co-parenting these children we both love." Don't argue. Don't get involved in a converation about what did or did not happen. Stay focused on the present - and the only thing here that matters is doing what is best of the kids.
posted by metahawk at 1:23 PM on November 27, 2015 [5 favorites]