Early 30s, male, NYC area. How can I date anyone?
November 17, 2015 6:35 PM   Subscribe

Hello all, I'm having some trouble in the dating world. I'm in my early 30s and male. I'm not rich, don't have an excellent career, and haven't traveled the world. I'm educated and make an OK living, but that doesn't seem to be enough for the women who live here.

I had a really fucked up upbringing, and worked really hard to overcome it, but that doesn't mean anything because I'm not really successful or have a lot of money. So for the most part, women are simply not interested in me. They think I'm a living joke because I didn't go to Harvard or Yale or have an excellent career.

What hope do I have to date here? Women on dates want to know if I've traveled to Iceland, or make a lot of money, or have markers of luxurious upper middle class living, but I never had a chance of having any of that. I'm also educated and interested in art, culture, music, writing, and did it all without support from anyone, but that means nothing without the $$$ or class markers to back it up. So, I'm in between a rock and a hard place.

I can't leave this area since I don't have a great background or amazing job skills and I'm pretty much stuck here. I also love NYC since I'm very interested in culture, art, and music, but that means nothing to people without money or luxury behind it.

I'm planning on advancing my career, but that means I won't be able to date for a long time, and I haven't had a girlfriend in a long time, and I don't see much point in just working til I die. My personality, interests, hobbies, and desire for a healthy, fun relationship seems to mean nothing to women around here. Unless I've got a fancy background and money to back it up.

Any advice? Moving somewhere else isn't an option.
posted by gehenna_lion to Human Relations (60 answers total) 2 users marked this as a favorite
 
You're coming off really, really defensive which I think is a bit of your problem here, just to be honest.
posted by sweetkid at 6:44 PM on November 17, 2015 [64 favorites]


Response by poster: You're coming off really, really defensive which I think is a bit of your problem here, just to be honest.

Fair enough, I'm probably generalizing. I got my head whacked in a whole bunch of times, I should probably just brush it off and keep on.
posted by gehenna_lion at 6:47 PM on November 17, 2015


What's wrong with embracing this?

From what I just read you are ambitious, enjoy your local culture, are resourceful, find enjoyment in your day to day. Yes, there are some people who need to hear the WOW factor of glamorous travel, etc. however in my experience, these people usually are so interested in these things because they are so dissatisfied with themselves.

My 30s have shown me that confidence is the ability to live in the moment and with what you have right now. It takes strength and intelligence to find adventure in your own backyard and NYC is one helluva yard. Confidence and being your own best friend and being nice is so much better than money any day. You need to give yourself more credit. We give you permission!

That, and I recommend staying away from materialistic women who can't see the value in having a no drama, straightforward relationship. Seriously, fuck that. Glitter and glamour fade quickly, money comes and goes, but it's the stable, healthy, fun and supportive behaviors that are most meaningful in the end. You are clearly spending time with the wrong people.

Just keep doing you and branch out. There are so many interesting things to do in NYC...museums, athletic clubs, art, music! Go do interesting things and you will meet interesting people. It really does work.
posted by floweredfish at 6:50 PM on November 17, 2015 [9 favorites]


There's just not a lot to go on without context, also, like I can totally see someone asking if you've been to Iceland because they went to Iceland and are trying to make a connection.
posted by sweetkid at 6:50 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: You might also want to consider that your expectations for partners might be a bit off, and instead of not dating at all you might consider dating people who are a bit less conventionally attractive, or a bit older. Young conventionally attractive women in NYC have a lot of options.

So should I start dating women in their 50s? My expectations were women interested in the same types of literature, music, etc., as me. What I didn't realize is that I'm self-educated, and these things happen to be class markers for others, and I guess I just didn't understand that. Jude the Obscure Syndrome, I guess, though I'm not going to go full cousin here.

Just keep doing you and branch out. There are so many interesting things to do in NYC...museums, athletic clubs, art, music! Go do interesting things and you will meet interesting people.

You're right on this. I'm not going to let these streak of failures get me down. NYC is a magnet for people who are 3-times legacies at Harvard with VC funding in the bag. I should be a little more realistic about where I'm living.
posted by gehenna_lion at 6:52 PM on November 17, 2015


Your hostility towards women here is pretty breathtaking. They are not all the way you describe. You need to keep looking, there are a lot of women who are interested in more than a fancy background and money (in fact, I have known very few who would make these things a priority). Good luck.
posted by amro at 6:52 PM on November 17, 2015 [144 favorites]


Based on your comment history it sounds like you've been through some shit. You deserve better than the upbringing you had, and I hope things are better for you in the present.

However, it sounds to me like you're taking specific negative experiences with specific women and giving all women a label that at worst could apply only to some of them. This generalizing also makes me think that you might be focusing on the negative aspects of specific women and not the positive - thereby tarring even these specific women with a brush that is unfair to them. So the reality might be not that all women are bad but that at most some women have some negative qualities.

Another way to think about it is that if you have negative interactions with all the women you meet, the common denominator there is you, not them.

I think you should consciously try to focus on the positive qualities of the women you meet.
posted by lewedswiver at 6:54 PM on November 17, 2015 [24 favorites]


I swear this is my last answer because I don't want to hog but I have tons of NYC dating experience (I'm in my 30s, a little older than you) but my #1 dating advice is to adopt the characteristics of someone you enjoyed dating or even enjoyed going on a few dates with, even if they disappointed you. If they have a super great career, work on your career. If they're super fit and healthy, get into some sports. Don't think of it as a way to get a relationship though, just use it to round yourself out as a person.

To me this was a better way to think of things than the standard "go out and be you" stuff because that sort of got me no traction personally or in relationships.
posted by sweetkid at 7:00 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


I noticed that you say nothing about your appearance. How do you look? Do you take care of yourself? Are you in shape? Lift weights? Do you pay attention to your clothes and have a sense of style? Your outward appearance matters a lot.

Also, you really need to drop the chip. I sense you have little confidence. The way you carry yourself goes a long way. Women will be able to sense your hard luck story coming a mile away. And you don't have to date older. I'm a 40 yo straight male and am seeing someone fairly younger.

If you want to attract someone, you need to be outwardly and inwardly attractive. If you want to talk about specifics about any of these things, you are welcome to MeMail me.
posted by Tanizaki at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2015 [7 favorites]


Also wanted to add: from your responses I've noticed a theme of a need to quantify things (degrees, salaries, titles, travel). Sometimes when we've been through shit in the past and have had to fend for ourselves (especially being type-A, as in my case) it's reallllly easy to want to quantify people because that has worked well for us in other life arenas while pulling ourselves out of said past shit. Perhaps start there? People aren't quantifiable, and if you are spending time with people who are trying to size you up and quantify YOU, then it's time to meet new people. By removing means of "measuring" people, it will be so much easier to focus on what makes different people shine and special. Maybe start with trying this on yourself?
posted by floweredfish at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: I think you should consciously try to focus on the positive qualities of the women you meet.

You're right, I shouldn't give up so easily. But it is frustrating, I can tell you that! There are some mean people out there, it's not specific to women. I've had job interviews where interviewers would harangue me about my taste in literature. Is it a crime that I don't like Perec? Apparently!
posted by gehenna_lion at 7:02 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mod note: OP, this isn't a discussion space - please just let people answer as they will. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:02 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, have to agree with the other commenters here. It sounds like you're just running into a string of not being good fits with the women you've gone on dates with — which is completely fine! — and trying to rationalize or invent reasons why it didn't work out that fit into a pretty common (and toxic, I may add) cultural narrative about women. But you don't know if those reasons are true — clinging to these reasons feels better than the uncertainty that you feel when stuff just doesn't work out. Brains are dumb.

Anyway, there're a lot of women (young, attractive women, even!) don't care one whit about money out there, and you'll meet them. And learn how to be OK with things not working out, for whatever reason.
posted by un petit cadeau at 7:02 PM on November 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


NYC is a magnet for people who are 3-times legacies at Harvard with VC funding in the bag.

And yet if you read AskMe, you'd think that NYC is full of low-paid social workers, non-profit employees, and would-be artists and freelancers trying to collect enough money for rent while lumbering under a mountain of college debt.

Meeting people in NYC is hard. My advice is to find a social outlet that doesn't strictly involve "dating," and put together a group of friends.
posted by deanc at 7:05 PM on November 17, 2015 [33 favorites]


Speaking very directly, it looks like you need to work on your own self-acceptance and self-regard. Lack of those is coming through loud and clear just based on your framing, responses, and the details you're dropping about what kinds of perceived slights you're sensitive to - and we're not even in the room with you.

This is something that women you approach are probably picking up on. This lack of confidence and fear of rejection comprise a set of red flags; many women you are spending time with may quickly be realizing that you have unresolved anger or resentment, low self-confidence, and a high degree of need for recognition and regard. For a woman evaluating a man as a potential dating partner, that's like a potential black hole of time and energy, and they cannot afford to start pouring themselves into it.

If you're responding to simple questions about your background and interests with anything like the defensiveness you're showing here, it's no wonder your dates are checking out - and that leaves you thinking it's because your bona fides weren't good enough or because they're snobs, only interested in money, or some other cultural trope that's grown up around women who are mainly just interested in finding a good partner who won't drain them of energy. Spend some time thinking about the way you communicate yourself, rather than what content you have to communicate.

I think you need to do some more work on the self-acceptance, self-confidence aspect of yourself. I haven't read your comment history, and am sorry for troubles you might have had in the past, but learning to manage relationships when you haven't had reasonable training there is another level of growth that's necessary and responds to intentional effort, like therapy or self-examination. It really doesn't matter where you went to school or what your career is; you're worthy of love. But you may need to remove the defensive blocks you have up between yourself and the world, and that takes work - and it's not up to the women you'd like to be with to do it. It's work for you to do.
posted by Miko at 7:11 PM on November 17, 2015 [77 favorites]


Now I read your question history. It would be a lot to get from where you were in June to a healthy dating life in 6 months. Not even 6. Did you end up getting therapy? It would help.
posted by Miko at 7:14 PM on November 17, 2015 [11 favorites]


How you feel about yourself:

I had a really fucked up upbringing, and worked really hard to overcome it, but that doesn't mean anything because I'm not really successful or have a lot of money. I'm a living joke because I didn't go to Harvard or Yale or have an excellent career.

I'm also educated and interested in art, culture, music, writing, and did it all without support from anyone, but that means nothing without the $$$ or class markers to back it up. So, I'm in between a rock and a hard place.

I can't leave this area since I don't have a great background or amazing job skills and I'm pretty much stuck here. I also love NYC since I'm very interested in culture, art, and music, but that means nothing to people without money or luxury behind it.

I'm planning on advancing my career. I don't see much point in just working til I die.


Is colouring how you see the world:

My personality, interests, hobbies, and desire for a healthy, fun relationship seems to mean nothing to women around here. I haven't had a girlfriend in a long time. Women on dates want to know if I've traveled to Iceland, or make a lot of money, or have markers of luxurious upper middle class living.

So for the most part, women are simply not interested in me.


You appear to be very hard on yourself here. The one disappointed with your lifestyle – or lack thereof – is you. Until you can find peace with that, it's not surprising that you're finding the world difficult – dating or otherwise.

Think about what you're projecting
• Fucked-up upbringing
• Hard-worker
• Not successful
• Not a lot of money
• Living joke
• Not Ivy League
• Doesn't take support from anyone
• Stuck
• Can't leave
• Don't really want to leave
• Beaten down.

You might to better if you started your dates with:

"I'm really disappointed in myself. I started out fucked up, but I'm a hard worker. All that hard work has gotten me to a place where I'm not successful and I don't make a lot of money. In fact, I'm a living joke.

I'm not Ivy League, and I don't know how to take help from anyone. I'm really stuck here. I can't leave because I don't really want to leave. I'm just beaten down. Want to go out?"

That will appeal to someone, because there's someone else in the world – maybe more than one – who feels exactly that way.

You don't have a problem with women, and women don't have a problem with you. You have a problem with yourself man, and it sounds like pride. The key phrase in there "I did without help from anyone." So are you saying that you have achieved a place in life where not only have you not accepted any help, but you are also deeply dissatisfied?

Try binning the pride, getting in the game, and being a guy who thinks he's worth dating. If that doesn't work, it will still be your fault. :)
posted by nickrussell at 7:15 PM on November 17, 2015 [12 favorites]


It's true that cities like NYC and London attract ambitious people who are privileged (in re background or whatever individual factors), it's true that there's a bit of game involved, face to worry about, etc.

There was a post on the blue recently about the inordinate (and lifelong) stress experienced by people who've made huge leaps across class categories (dissonance; strain from having to learn codes all the time while making that learning invisible)…

If that's going on, I think you either need to find a way to cope with that, or reevaluate the particular NYC life you've chosen. 2nd Miko, + 2nd deanc - make a couple of good friends who've done something similar, and understand your history. For dating, too, maybe you'd feel more comfortable with people who've got a sort of similar background.

(Like I probably wouldn't be comfortable dating someone who'd never been depressed and didn't really get it.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:16 PM on November 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


Response by poster: Now I read your question history. It would be a lot to get from where you were in June to a healthy dating life in 6 months. Not even 6. Did you end up getting therapy? It would help.

You make a good point, I'm probably trying too fast, too soon. I should probably be dead right now all things considered, like, I'm not even supposed to be here among the living, so I probably need to be more realistic about the life I've had and where I'm at. I guess I'm proud of what I've been able to do, and frustrated that it means nothing in the world, but those existential questions are my own business. Looks like I have a drawing board to get back to.
posted by gehenna_lion at 7:21 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Whoa, no. No. Im not saying, "stick to your station", I'm saying you might feel more relaxed with someone who can understand you, because they've been there. Someone you don't feel you need to be on guard against. (Sorry - you were talking to Miko, and that didn't make sense at all - I just didn't want to give the impression I think I probably gave :/)
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:22 PM on November 17, 2015


It doesn't mean nothing - but it's you who needs to really be convinced of that. You've done great. But I think you're still doing a lot of comparing and feeling inadequate. You don't have to do that, but it's hard when it seems like it's so easy for everyone else to just make social connections with ease. Please, see if you can get some help from a practitioner who knows about relationship skills and self-confidence - I know you work a lot, but therapists keep all kinds of hours, especially in a big city. It's worth giving it a shot. There is a lot you can do by and for yourself, and it sounds like you've taken on a huge challenge in mending your life and getting yourself together, which is heroic on its own. But there are certain simple understandings and skills that sometimes come a lot easier and faster with a coach. Relationships are among them, and I think you could get leaps and bounds better in a short time if you brought this question to a pro.
posted by Miko at 7:25 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


On first dates people are trying to make conversation- that's why they ask about travel and college. It's not to judge you, it's to start putting feelers out to see what you have in common!

Consider the following:
-Successful and well educated women in your age range are looking for grown up men to partner off with. To many that means someone with a steady career they are passionate about that allows them financial stability.
- Show them you would be a good potential partner. Maybe your job is mediocre, but can you make a mean banana nut muffin or know how to drive stick shift? Sell your good qualities.
- Be generous.
- You are not automatically entitled to an awesome significant other. You will have to make a real effort or be incrediblely lucky. Keep meeting people.
- The way you imply ALL women in nyc are only interested in money indicates a somewhat disturbing/creepy attitude towards women that you might want to address. A good attitude and seeing the best in people will leave the right kind of impression.
-Next time someone asks you about Iceland say "I haven't been, but you know I always have wanted to see the northern lights there and eat puffin...." Find things in common.

I am a woman in NYC that has dated a lot, so consider this expert advice. Good luck.
posted by KMoney at 7:28 PM on November 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


How are you meeting women?

I kind of hear you, because while I don't live in NYC and had a more conventional upbringing than you, I too am way poorer than someone with my interests should be, and while I have a perfectly decent union gig, it's a working class job and I'll always be working class. And most of the people who share my cultural and political interests - which are the most important things to me, dating-wise - are much richer and have professional jobs. I don't think you're imagining it - this does make dating harder.

However. At least around here, the way to meet compatible people is through left-leaning cultural events - and I assume New York has those. Book discussions, readings, film - don't just go to big glitzy ones, look for ones put on by small bookstores and event spaces. I hear good things about Bluestockings, for instance. There seems to be an anarchist center in Bushwick. I'm sure that anyone on the ground could figure out similar places. Here in Minneapolis, while you can certainly go to radical left events and find either awful polemic or people who are 18 and working out what being 18 means to them, you can also find interesting film and author events, and there's usually a loose crowd of people around those spaces who you'll see over and over. This is basically how I've bootstrapped myself into having friends.

Those people are far, far less likely to care about what brand your phone is and how many diamonds are crusted thereon, and far more likely actually to be impressed by your background. That's also where you may find kindred souls. I have a friend whose background sounds very, very much like yours, for instance, right down to the weird upbringing, and I met her through bookfair organizing. It's certainly fucked her up a bit and made dating difficult - more because of her experiences than anything else - but she does seem to get dates.

Also, do you have time to do something creative? I find that when I'm feeling down on my career, class background, etc, it helps me to work on a project. As I've mentioned here about a gazillion times, I do some community ed stuff in my areas of intellectual interest, and it's really helped me to feel like I'm creating something and have an intellectual life. It might be that if you could think of something that you could teach, or some way that you could contribute to an intellectually interesting project (film society? volunteer bookstore? I don't know what things are like in NYC) it might help you stretch your muscles a bit.

Also, also: maybe read some memoirs? I've been reading a bunch of stuff by and about David Wojnarowicz, one of relatively few great recent artists to be genuinely of the working class (well, lumpenproletariat, really - talk about a fucked up youth!) and it's been helping me to think through how we expect working class or lower middle class people to "prove" themselves intellectually in ways that are boring and stupid and not artistically or intellectually interesting.

Honestly, I sometimes feel really bitter about it - I'm an intelligent person, but I know I'm a poor match for anyone who is educated, because I'll never make the kind of money that other people with my general interests and background do. I'm not a serious match for those people, and I too find it difficult to find class peers who share my interests.
posted by Frowner at 7:33 PM on November 17, 2015 [16 favorites]


Alright, I'm gonna get tough-love on you, because someone once got tough-love on me when I was whining in a way similar to you.

I'm not rich, don't have an excellent career, and haven't traveled the world. I'm educated and make an OK living, but that doesn't seem to be enough for the women who live here.

I am a woman who's lived in New York since my 20's, and this would have been plenty enough for me at 30 - and still is. So...what am I, chopped liver?

Are you sure that "educated and makes an OK living" isn't enough for any of the women in New York? Or do you maybe mean that it isn't enough for the women that you think are good enough for you? Are there women who maybe you've gotten the sense they do like you, but you've brushed them off because you've decided they're not good enough for your standards? If there are, then you have no grounds whatsoever to say that "women in New York" don't like you. Instead, your problem is that this specific subset of women doesn't like you.

Now, I'm not necessarily saying that you should lower your standards or anything; I'm not saying that this is like a "Lowered Expectations" sketch or anything. I didn't lower my standards when someone pointed this same thing out to me. But I did realize, though, was that I wasn't wholly unloveable - but rather, part of my singlehood was entirely within my own control. If I really wanted to, I could date one of the guys who was approaching me on OKC who couldn't spell and greeted me with "lol cute tits" or whatever. But of course I didn't want to. So...if I didn't want to, then my being single was not due to my own unloveability, it was due to my choices. And, when I thought about it, I still wanted to make those choices. And somehow, simply knowing that they were my choices....helped.

I bet you have been ruling out scores of women for one reason or another - women who would have been happy to date you. And, if you think about it, you may very well decide that ruling them out was indeed the best option for you. And that is totally valid. But if that is indeed the case, you are simply not allowed to say that "no one" wants to date you, because if you've been ruling women out, then it's you who hasn't wanted them. Which doesn't make you unloveable, it just makes you....particular. And particular is not always a bad thing.

Good luck.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:34 PM on November 17, 2015 [41 favorites]


Response by poster: I kind of hear you, because while I don't live in NYC and had a more conventional upbringing than you, I too am way poorer than someone with my interests should be, and while I have a perfectly decent union gig, it's a working class job and I'll always be working class. And most of the people who share my cultural and political interests - which are the most important things to me, dating-wise - are much richer and have professional jobs. I don't think you're imagining it - this does make dating harder.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. I've got some weird twist, though: my family is actually from this background. My family is filled with legacies of MIT, Yale, Wellesley, all those fancy pants places, but for whatever reason they decided to drown me in a bathrub, literally and figuratively. So I grew up in an upper middle class family, but they deigned to send me down to the working class. I worked three jobs to put myself through college, while my two older brothers got giant sums of money dropped down on their educations. I was "Boy Blunder" to these people, even though I taught myself to read, skipped grades, etc. Maybe I was a threat to their egos, or they're just fucked up. I have no idea. I'll probably never make sense of it.

So I've got nothing in common with ANYBODY! Working class people think I'm some Ivy League snob because I picked up habits, postures, ways of speaking just for growing up around my family, but I had my opportunities ripped from me and strangled because I happened to be born into a family of psychos. Since I lacked the same advantages, say, my brothers got (like rich uncle dropping 200 grand for a private arts education), I can't get along with those people, either.

I'm like, drifting nowhere, belong nowhere, have no place anywhere. So I guess this issue is more complicated than just women, or me, or anything. I don't even know what to do with this, except take some Buddhist attitude of just enjoying the everyday, and maybe I'll happen upon someone who's cool with it all and gets it. I have enough interests and hobbies and passions, but regardless it's always going to be climbing Mount Everest.
posted by gehenna_lion at 7:44 PM on November 17, 2015


Okay, after the follow-ups, I'm gonna add...

Dude, therapy. Seriously. Not becuase I think you're psycho or anything, but because it helped me sort some shit, and it sounds like you got shit that needs sorting.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:48 PM on November 17, 2015 [46 favorites]


OP, even in this thread you're being kind of argumentative and repetitive, even when a mod asked you to chill. If your dates go like this, that's probably turning women off.

Work on chilling. And given the number of AskMe posts from women in NYC--especially women in their 30s--having trouble with the dating scene, it sounds like you need to chill and keep trying. In a city that big there are bound to be other self-educated, self-starting, non-snobby women. As the dating advice here always reminds, us, it's a numbers game.
posted by TwoStride at 7:48 PM on November 17, 2015 [18 favorites]


I'm probably in the demo you're looking to date, and this question made me think you must be a relentlessly negative person to be around. None of the things you say about yourself are offputting to me at all, but the way you say them - it's like you can't decide who you dislike more, yourself or every woman you've ever dated.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:50 PM on November 17, 2015 [71 favorites]


OP, you sound depressed. You are looking at things in a very negative light. You have the gift of understanding both classes, not the curse of being strictly either. Life is not so bad as it appears. Find a good therapist. Discuss meds with them and your doc. Life can be hard sometimes. And then you need help (therapy and maybe meds, stat!!!!) To get back to a happy place you deserve.
posted by Kalmya at 7:52 PM on November 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


I'm pretty much stuck here. I also love NYC

There is a disconnect here.

I'm very interested in culture, art, and music, but that means nothing to people without money or luxury behind it.

Also there. You are seeing the world through some wacky lenses. Putting way to many eggs in this basket. Slow down.
posted by vrakatar at 7:56 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Dating is hard for men before you hit 35. Really hard. But never really talked about or mentioned, so you don't know whether it is just you or whatever. It isn't you, its the set up. Personally, its an age thing and a money thing. Women want to marry a man that makes more money then them. Plus when you are older women, for some reason I have yet to fathom, flock to you.

I suggest you read a book called "Intimate Connections" by Dr. David Burns and do the exercises. Its a very good start. But yes, the deck IS stacked against you. You will have to work harder to get the same thing. People don't like to admit hard truths, but you will do better once you understand them.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:58 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


As far as I can tell, dating is hard for most people. And lasting love itself is harder. We all see people who it looks easier for: people who are really good looking, people who have money, people who have some kind of success which gives them a higher profile and a certain caché.

And it's probably true there are some great women out there that you've been interested in who are looking for guys whose lives look rich in a particular way that yours might not from the outside.

But hell, man, even movie stars and rich guys get dumped.

And even though your life may have had more than your fair share of darkness (which I hope you can continue to move past), there probably are ways in which your life is rich, gifts you have that you can turn into experiences to share (see KMoney's banana nut muffin suggestion) while you work to make your life gradually richer.

Not everybody will want what you're trying to share. There's no way to 100% guarantee success, you can only guarantee failure by ceasing to try. But someone probably will want to share, eventually. Mark the connections that don't take as part of the journey, and try to focus on the next opportunity to share rather than dwelling on those failures, hard as it is. Most of us have to do it.
posted by namespan at 8:02 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


To redirect from Ironmouth:

Dating may very well be hard for men of a certain age. But that's not because "the deck is stacked against you". It is because dating is hard for everyone. Dating is hard, period. It's clumsy and stupid and awkward and you have to walk a fine line between trusting your instinct and giving people a chance, and you strike out more than you strike it big, and then people come along and lay all sorts of patriarchal bullshit on you that messes with your head even further and it just plain sucks for everyone all around, the end.

The fact that people aren't saying that "women want to marry a man that makes more money than them" in this thread isn't because "people don't like to admit hard truths", it's because that statement is not always true.

and your accepting that it is true is only serving to make you feel unlucky and is adding to the negativity that is more likely the real problem.

So in short - don't believe that hype.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:06 PM on November 17, 2015 [29 favorites]


You sound a lot like me, pre-therapy! Maybe we're a bit alike, or maybe we're not, but: I had a lot of stuff I was carrying around, a lot of bitterness and anger. I would unload those repetitively on people sometimes, and once I got going it was really hard to stop. For me, this was because I had a lot of trouble feeling heard. No matter how many times I told my story, it was like I'd never told it at all, and I just kept feeling compelled to repeat it all over and over again. I was lucky enough to find a therapist who was a good fit for me, and what he really did was to make me feel - deep down inside where it counts - like he was hearing and understanding my story. And once I felt really heard, I could stop telling it.

As I say, sometimes I'm still a bitter and angry person, but it's nowhere near the same - it doesn't eat at me, and when I'm feeling those things, I know it will pass.

My bet is that until you start addressing these feelings of bitterness, they're going to come out at bad times. A lot of people will probably say that you're basically lucky, privileged, etc, even if you didn't get the fancy arts education paid for - and that's materially true, I surmise. But that doesn't really help with the feelings, with the bitterness. If your family has been unfair to you and loved you least, that's a heavy load to carry.

It's not that you need to be all finished with therapy and perfectly self-actualized before you date - then you would be ready to date the fifty year olds, because you'd be one of them! - but just getting a sympathetic ear can make so much of a difference.

If you're like me, one reason you're telling your story over and over [as you do in this thread, in a way] is because you fundamentally don't expect people to believe you or help you. For me, having a good relationship with a therapist allowed me to get that unconditional believing and helping, and it made such a difference.
posted by Frowner at 8:06 PM on November 17, 2015 [21 favorites]


Of course you should. The world isn't telling you any such thing. You can find a therapist who doesn't exploit you (it is a profession and they do need to get paid, but there's a difference between that and exploiting that is meaningful).

It really sounds like you need friends, too. You're really focused on this dating/sex thing, but if you think you don't have friends who would miss you at the moment, and you're under such stress, then job one is to really make some friends. People who you can spend time with doing stuff you both enjoy. People whose company you enjoy without introducing the dynamic of sex and romance. What do you do apart from work? What do you do for fun? What are your interests, and do you go to events or places where people who have those interests gather?
posted by Miko at 8:28 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


Mod note: gehenna_lion, I know you've had a tough time but I need you to stop commenting in this thread. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 8:28 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't think it's exactly "getting over"; it's more "letting go". "Getting over" suggests that it's a failing of yours to be bitter, when it sounds like being bitter is entirely reasonable and appropriate.

I don't know. Honestly, when I've met people in your situation, it's seemed like a long hard slog for them because they have trouble building any kind of relationship that doesn't recapitulate the childhood - being drawn to awful friends, having trouble picking up signals that say to many people "this person is horrible, run away". So I know two people who are just great humans, for instance, and 3/4 of their social world is terrible people, really terrible - abusive, hypercritical, etc. There's nothing wrong with these two, except that their relationship standards were set by their godawful families. I try to tell them that they're valuable and amazing, and I think sometimes it helps a little.

I'm really trying to think of some useful suggestion. It seems like you need to be in situations where people will be gentle with you and you can be gentle with yourself, and you probably need to stay in those situations for quite a while. I'm a stranger on the internet, but what I would suggest is this: find a project where you can contribute and where you'll see the same people over and over. If you were here, I'd tell you to start cooking for a particular weekly film night and dinner around here, and just do that every week for a while, concentrating on being present in that moment and building those relationships. This may or may not lead to dating, but my bet is that you really need a year or two of just being around people who like you. Even if you're bitter and grumpy in person, if you do some kind of steady volunteer gig and talk to people, people will like you. I know this because I've seen many people with difficult lives get integrated into social circles this way. Doing a community ed class might have a similar effect - or a greater effect, if you are someone who really longs to have an effect in the world.

The way you're writing, you sound like you're an emotional burn victim, where what has happened to you has caused you so much damage that even ordinary things like the motion of the air are painful, and where you just need a kind of whole-body healing to get you stable before anything else can happen.

I imagine that some of what I write will sound fatuous - frankly, for instance, I don't even know who Perec is - but while I'm not up on New York intellectual MIT legacy stuff, I've known a few very damaged smart people and I've heard people say stuff like what you're saying.

Another immediate suggestion: do something as kind as possible for yourself immediately, whatever that is for you, and work on treating yourself kindly. If no one else can give you things right now because you don't have anyone to take care of you, try to take care of yourself in some of those ways - make yourself treats for dinner, or read things you don't usually make time to read, or get some new socks or whatever. Unless I miss my guess, you're basically used to being treated badly, and you need to have some sustained experiences with not being treated badly in order to understand what that feels like. Sometimes that means you have to start with treating yourself extra well.

I wish I had better advice. I do recognize that this is a far trickier problem than it initially appears.
posted by Frowner at 8:40 PM on November 17, 2015 [21 favorites]


If you're thinking about that, trying again should be priority #1. (I agree that therapy can be a crapshoot, though. Maybe some Mefites in your area will be able to offer recommendations, if you ask about that another time.)

I think Miko and others' (totally correct) message of working on self-acceptance, on the belief that you have value no matter what, is both vital and probably somewhat at odds with the things you're having to do to get by, and your own expectations. (I agree with those who say some of the frustrations related to your background are bouncing onto these women you're dating or wanting to date.)

And you're with a ton of stress, from that job, along with everything you've been dragging along with you. You're applying to other jobs, you've said, that's good… I think, though, that it would help you to get yourself somewhere less stressful - both in terms of job and living situation, ideally. I have no idea what the demographics are like in nearby cities, but if it were me, I might think about going to a smaller pond for a bit, to make sense of things and get myself sorted; maybe go back at another time, when I felt more at ease with myself. It's not true that NYC is the only place anything worthwhile happens. I agree with Frowner that the right community - maybe in a smaller city, I'm thinking - could offer you a place to heal and grow without being triggered by highly complicated status anxiety.

You're still really young, you know. There's time.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:45 PM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


On review:

Some of this stuff sounds really, really heavy, and like it has little to do with garden variety dating challenges. And I am way out of my depth in trying to say anything helpful here, so if I sound like I'm full of shit, I may very well be.

First: the molestation, abuse, and attempted murder are things I can barely imagine. You don't have to be defined by these things, but if you feel the weight of those things heavily that's very very human. They're serious crimes against you, and the weight of them often does haunt people and can leave them with some dark thoughts about themselves. Those dark thoughts are lies, based off vile judgments of others that you already correctly see as warped. I respect that you're still moving and breathing, particularly if you're doing it alone, and you should too. Do not trust your darker thoughts.

Second: if you can see homelessness from where you're sitting, that is also going to be messing with your equilibrium and provide a backdrop of fear and anxiety that will also give you darker thoughts that you shouldn't trust. I know about this from firsthand experience, I have not only been almost homeless, close to broke and broken down and waiting for the other shoe to fall... I've actually been homeless for months at a stretch, and then marginally housed or dependent on charity of others for longer. It is not fun. But you sound like you have the gifts and the drive to maybe avoid some of my mistakes and come through better than I did. Almost homeless doesn't have to become homeless.

Third: I know the pain of missed opportunities, things I could've/should've had with better parental choices or any reasonable mentoring figure, or if a series of gatekeepers hadn't decided for arbitrary or rigged reasons that someone else got an honored spot that I'd earned as much or more of a right to. I've also had my potential judged again and again to fit in a much smaller box than it belongs in. This can eat you alive unless you redirect your drive away from the choices others have made and back onto those you can make.

I'd love to tell you'll come through all of this to a better place, and again, it sounds to me like you have the gifts and drive to make that happen, even with the extra weight you've been saddled with. But even in the likely event that things get better — as they often do when you put one foot in front of the other and keep trying to do everything you can to increase the chances that they will get better — there is a train wreck or three coming for all of us at some point. I don't think you're there (hell, statistically, it sounds like you already had your train wreck and you lived), but it does mean that as you've guessed some degree of "Buddhist attitude of just enjoying the everyday" is a really good idea. Even when I was a homeless person that was doing a lot of extra work just to make day-to-day life happen and scoping out tunnels/bushes to sleep in, I found I wasn't denied the chance to be able to see and take a little enjoyment of the beauty in the world, to find a little bit of time to use my mind for my own enjoyment, and to share a few kind words with people. You won't always be able to control how you feel, but choosing to cultivating your own little garden of that inside of some small part of your day is a habit that will serve you even when you move past the difficult pace you're in now.
posted by namespan at 9:17 PM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


They think I'm a living joke because I didn't go to Harvard or Yale or have an excellent career.

Come on, man. You can't really believe this. That's just silly. You sound like you are interpreting things in a very negative way and you have a large chip on your shoulder, which probably is an important factor. Honestly, you sound a little angry in some of your responses here. I think being self-defensive and self-conscious, or angry and projecting negative feelings, may be preventing you from connecting with people. I just picture the resentment building at the first hint of anything that seems less than a perfect match. Like, did a woman just make an off-hand comment asking whether you've been to Iceland because she had been to Iceland and wanted to talk about it? Something like that is not an indictment on your character or your life experiences -- it was just a conversation topic -- but it sounds like you took it the wrong way.

I would say, try less hard, be less desperate and have more confidence in yourself. Most men did not attend Ivy League schools. Most men are not rich. Most men have not traveled the world. It's about connecting with another person. Look, I don't doubt for a second that you have been on some bad dates, but everyone has. Dating sucks for most people. It's not because all women in NYC don't like your career or the number of stamps in your passport -- it's just normal to have a hard time finding someone you connect with. That's why it's such a big deal when it does happen. If it was easy, everyone wouldn't be so obsessed with dating and finding someone. I would say, stop being angry about it or painting the women of NYC as one thing and accept that dating can be hard. (But it will probably be easier if you adjust your attitude and try to have some fun.)

edit: I see your last question explains why you may be looking at things the way you are. I'd probably have some built up anger about things too. That's tough stuff and you should be proud of making it through everything. It might make sense to focus on yourself and making yourself the best person you can be, and I bet dating and other life challenges will get better. Therapy, if you're not already doing it, is a great idea. I would also just say, your past doesn't define you if you don't let it. It may be hard not to feel self doubt after what you've been through, but if you work toward moving on from everything, I think the rest will fall into place.
posted by AppleTurnover at 9:34 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm really sorry about what happened to you.

That said, I wouldn't want to date you. (You probably wouldn't want to date me, either, if I'm interpreting what you're saying correctly.) You sound like, while putting yourself down, on some level you believe that you are better than the women you date. You have lived through some really hard stuff that those shallow, elitist gold-diggers will never understand. That would really turn me off. You don't know what someone has been through. Sure, most people won't have your level of tough life, but do you know that for sure? And if it's important to you that someone gets what you've been through, why not use that as a criterion instead of what you use now, whatever it is? (I'm assuming looks?)

Whenever a man tells me 'all women ...', I am immediately turned off. It's also almost universally true that the men who complain about 'all women' have a certain type of women they exclusively go for, but that type is usually, and I hate to use that term, 'out of their league'. Maybe Hollywood tells you every guy can get a supermodel, but women are not prizes to be had. Maybe Supermodel doesn't care for your looks, but wants someone fun who treats her like a person instead of an object - can you do that or are you turning nice women off by acting like they should feel guilty about their easier-than-your upbringing or their need for stability?

I hope you can find some relief from your pain and a woman who likes you for who you are. They are out there, just don't believe that women only want rich alpha males, that's crap.
posted by LoonyLovegood at 10:18 PM on November 17, 2015 [19 favorites]


The number of comments you've made suggests that you have a real desire to talk about all of this, and some very understandable resentment against your family. That is exactly what therapy is for.

This is a much less important point, but I also agree that your background allows you wider dating opportunities, because you could relate to people of various classes. The fact that you grew up upper middle class and "picked up habits, postures, ways of speaking just for growing up around [your] family" would make it easier for you to date someone also from that class, or who aspired to be. There are certainly people who have well-paying jobs who choose partners with lower-paying jobs. (See Frowner's comment on this.) But the fact that you had to work your own way through college and otherwise lacked some privileges would allow you to relate to someone who didn't grow up wealthy.
posted by salvia at 10:51 PM on November 17, 2015


What kind of women are you dating?

In my experience, many people will complain about the unrealistic standards of their dates while themselves having unrealistic standards.

Are you dating women who are similarly not perfect on paper? Women older than yourself? Overweight women? Socially awkward women?

These sentences you wrote could so easily be modified to describe the dating experiences of many women:

"My personality, interests, hobbies, and desire for a healthy, fun relationship seems to mean nothing to women around here. Unless I've got a fancy background and money to back it up."

...would change to...

"My personality, interests, hobbies, and desire for a healthy, fun relationship seems to mean nothing to men around here. Unless I'm 21, have a size 2 body and enhanced boobs."

My guess is, if you expand your dating horizons you'll do just fine.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 11:12 PM on November 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


OP, reading through your comment/question history, I think there are things like achievement, pedigree, etc. that you associate with both the family that did wrong by you and what they withheld from you. I think those same things are fairly characterized as eligibility markers in your current cohort. I think rubbing all that together would make any reasonable person feel pretty shitty.

To your questions. First, "What hope do I have to date here?" Given your current state? This isn't an NYC problem - you don't have much hope to date, anywhere. You need to change your current state. How? See your next question.

Second, "How can I date anyone?" I offer a three part plan:

As you're very aware, privilege and class markers don't make people any less fucked up. It already looks like you've done some amount of work and traveled some distance away from where you started. Finish that bit - free yourself. Of your family, of the women to whom these things matter - but most of all your own internalization of how your denial or lack of these markers reduces your worth. Yes, you've been truly victimized - that doesn't have to be true going forward, as well. #1 - lose the drag.

#2 - spend lots more time recognizing or cultivating your worth. You don't seem to be giving yourself very much credit for how awesome you are (or could become) - so why should anyone else?

#3 - go find people and connect with them. Yes you've gotten this far on your own, without anyone else, and why should you trust anybody when you couldn't trust your own family, right? You are understandably not great at connecting with people right now. That can change. There are boatloads of folks with and without these privilege markers who are amazing, worthwhile, awesome people. Men and women. Romantically or (preferably) otherwise. Go find them. Start small. Build trust. Don't skip this part cause you're going to need these skills for dating, which is exactly this only times a million.
posted by NoRelationToLea at 2:01 AM on November 18, 2015 [5 favorites]


If you really believe that the women you want to date think you're a living joke because you didn't go to Harvard or Yale or have an excellent career and really only care about things like whether you've traveled to Iceland or make a lot of money or have markers of luxurious upper middle class living and that being educated and interested in art, culture, music and writing means nothing without the $$$ or class markers to back it up, then you do indeed have a problem.

I assure you that not all women think this way. And I assure you that both men and women can have those interests without caring at all about class markers. As someone who came from a fucked up (but working class) background who is now educated and interested in art, culture, music and writing I can also confirm that yes, it can be difficult to meet people who share your interests and also understand your background. But if I were on a date with someone who had a problem because I hadn't gone to Harvard? Fuck that. But you sound like you would actually like to date these women and are upset that they aren't interested. Is this actually true, do you really actually want to date people like this or do you want to date someone who just isn't like that? Because these are two different problems that require two different solutions: either you want to date women who aren't interested in you for shallow reasons, or you can't find like-minded women who you'd like to date.

If it's that you want to date women who aren't interested in you, then you need to change yourself to their specifications. That's it. Nothing else you can really do. If x is important to them in a partner then they should not date people without x.

If this is not actually your problem then you need to reframe this. I know that for me, if I do not meet someone's specifications of what they need in a partner then I know they are also not likely to meet my specifications, because the specifications I have are rooted in values and so this would mean we have different values (not talking about things that don't work out after dating or chemistry or whatever). So in your example, these women value money and status. It stands to reason that if you also valued these things, you would likely care about them in a partner too or would try to have those things in your life and wouldn't be complaining about some women valuing those things. So stop trying to date people with different values to you. I call this incompatibility.

But that last paragraph only applies to desired values. It all falls apart if what you want most is based on something like physical appearance. If the most important quality in a partner is physical appearance or you have specifications in that vein (similar to theirs regarding money and status) then I refer you back to the paragraph of changing yourself to their specifications.

Decide what it is you want in a relationship/the person you are dating and only date those people. It will narrow your dating pool significantly, and make dating harder in a way, but what it will also mean is that the quality of your dates will rise significantly. You may be going on fewer dates, but the dates you do go on should be of a better quality. This is what I found when I tried this myself, anyway.

Also. Others have already commented on some of the bitterness and anger that comes across in your post and I noticed it too. And other people have already pointed out that it's not helpful for you in general or in dating and also will be off putting if it runs rampant during a date. So I was angry and bitter towards my family for years and this book on CPTSD/childhood trauma helped me get over some of that more than anything else. I'm not saying we had the same childhood or anything like that but the way you wrote had a familiar feeling to it.
posted by Polychrome at 4:37 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


From a slightly different perspective... don't "date". Scare quotes intended. I did not think I'd ever have a girlfriend, then wow it happened, had some issues, then at a downturn decided to "swear off dating" for a few months. Was married not long after.

Hang out in groups that have a mix of people with shared interests. Talk. Smile. Have coffee. Be relaxed. Be amazed at what happens next. (to use the contemporary web vernacular :-)
posted by sammyo at 6:04 AM on November 18, 2015


Street cred: I got my education paid for by a member of my family who also provided the luxuries of a more UMC existence to my nuclear, with big bonuses every time my parents walked in on him raping me and ignored it. Fun times!

With that, I have to tell you your thinking is kinda messed up here. I feel like you are looking for indicators that you get the same life as your siblings or what have you, and Partner is next on your list and you are turning this goal into the latest way to keep the inside of your head in about the same place as your entire self used to be. That is, trapped with what you want right in your face but also beyond your reach.

Don't date yet.

What I do suggest is that you need to find other scripts, other ways of living, all the richness of the actual world where people have rich lives well beyond all the strange little borders your family drew for you.

What came to my mind in reading your really, really oddly -- I don't know if you know how oddly -- expressed rant about women needing you to have gone to Iceland is that you really don't know how diversely people meet and mate. I remember going through a very odd phase of watching Wife Swap and whatever the other similar show was at the time and after like, 10 episodes just being amazingly struck by how the Pirate Couple found each other and turned their home into pirate city and the Our Daughter Is A Beauty Queen couple both thought having a Christmas tree in their living room to give her gifts every day was peachy keen. For me it was very freeing to realize...people hook up for reasons that are Unfathomable to others. But they do.

I suggest that if you can, you volunteer in an old folks' home or a hospital or a community centre where you can make connections and also see people's life stories. Ask real people "oh, how did you two meet?" And see how that is in a non-abstract universe.

Right now, basically, I don't think you can open your heart to real, flawed but present women. But it will come.

I also suggest you go deeper into what you love -- slam poetry readings, pop up galleries, whatever. Because you can find your tribe there too. Sort of a dual approach -- learn what the wide world is, find your little slice of amazing in it.

When I met my husband he was under vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. I was on a not dating mission, having been through a bad breakup, which is why I had time to hang out with Not Dating Material. We've been married 21 years.

You have time to find the life you want, you really do. Don't get stuck on recreating the same measures of success or failure of your biological family.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:09 AM on November 18, 2015 [13 favorites]


Are women explicitly TELLING you that they don’t want to date you because you didn’t go to Yale/Harvard and you don’t have money, or are you inferring this when they stop going on dates with you?

If I went on a date with a guy who had those upper echelon mannerisms, and it came up that his siblings all went to Ivies and he paid his way through a SUNY school, I might say “so you took the road not taken, huh?” and internally be REALLY IMPRESSED that this dude threw off the shackles of his family. But you seem really eager to believe that everyone you meet is judging you by the standards of your family and their circle.

The standards of your family and their circle are garbage, and part of the reason people talk about “the 1%” is because people inside that 1% live bizarre, funhouse mirror lives compared to the rest of us, where life is Yale/Harvard or nothing, where you have to wear the right kind of riding boots, where you use “summer” as a verb.

The way your family abused you has opened your eyes to the fact that they are terrible people, but you don’t seem to realize how much of their worldview you are recreating for yourself. 95% of the people I have ever known who care about opera and fine arts and great literature have been middle class or lower middle class. Many of them went to state schools or no college at all. Many of them are perfectly content with just scraping by salaries. These people exist. You just aren’t finding them, for some reason, or you don't believe they exist in the first place.

The women you ask out— what do they do? Are any of them administrative assistants working on a graduate degree? Are any of them working in nonprofits because they care about the cause? Are any of them temping? Did they commute from Jersey for a few years to save on rent? People who know what a struggle it can be to get by on less are also the same people who are rarely expecting to meet a cute millionaire and be supported for the rest of their lives.

And yes. Therapy.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:23 AM on November 18, 2015 [9 favorites]


Also, something I've observed in myself and others: traumatized people are often unconsciously drawn to people who will help them recapitulate the trauma. And this is often very tricky - it's not just "my parents verbally abused me so I am drawn to women who will also verbally abuse me". It's more like "I was never loved, so I will be drawn to people who - for various subtle, not-obvious reasons - will never be able to love me".

It seems quite possible that something unconscious is drawing you to women who won't want to date anyone except guys with lots of money and connections. These don't have to be awful women, or women without interesting qualities, or women who are all fashion models; they may very well be women, for instance, who are just as unconscious of their preferences as you are. So it may be that you're not just misreading everything, or consciously making terrible dating choices ("only a 23-year-old with a perfect figure, a PhD and a former career as a ballerina is good enough for me!"). It may be that you are unconsciously seeking out people who will reject you, because that rejection feels so familiar and because you're stuck.

It's not that life is what you make it, but I have observed that if you're not careful, you can seek out and bring into your life only people who will cause you pain. It's not just that you should seek out new ways to meet women, although that would probably help; I would suggest that you look for patterns among the types of women you're immediately drawn to, and try to identify some commonalities. As I've said on here before, I am helplessly drawn to short, mean, small people with glasses who want to prove that they are smarter than me and who have issues with my personality type and beliefs. That's my ur-type, and it's about family and childhood stuff, and those people will never love me. I have never had a good relationship with any of the short mean small people with glasses that I've pursued, because I was attracted to the very things in them that made them want to destroy me.
posted by Frowner at 6:44 AM on November 18, 2015 [12 favorites]


Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. Folks, if you are honestly trying to help, it's fine to offer possible scenarios the OP might consider, but please don't use this thread as a place to vent or rant about how some people act / think. Please offer your advice about possibilities in a productive, helpful way.
posted by taz (staff) at 7:02 AM on November 18, 2015


I'm sorry you're struggling with this. I agree with others who've suggested that this is coming primarily from you, not the women you're meeting. Certainly there's an element of truth to the idea that some people are impressed by Ivies and other status symbols. But a) that is definitely not true of everyone (I think you could also easily find people, especially artists, who actively choose *not* to worship status symbols, and I also think the majority of people don't care about it very much); and b) even if you're talking with someone who might like the idea of dating a Harvard grad or something, it's hardly likely to be a dealbreaker. The dealbreaker is your own defensiveness. I have friends who haven't had the money to travel, etc., and who I know have felt a little left out because of that. I'm thinking of one friend in particular who, for several years, had never traveled anywhere outside of the U.S. When travel came up, he talked about the places he wanted to go in the future, and how much he was looking forward to it. It seems like you view travel more as a status symbol than an end in itself. All the change you need is within yourself, not in others.
posted by three_red_balloons at 7:17 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


I feel like I'm rapidly becoming the AskMe spokesperson for "get the hell outta NYC" but....man, get the hell outta NYC.

It will absolutely not solve all, or even most, of your problems, but there are so many places you could be right now where you'd almost never meet an Ivy graduate, much less a legacy, much less anyone who gave a damn whether YOU were one. Where "travel" mostly means within the US, if at all. I think you will have an easier time dismantling your defensiveness in an area where you just won't feel put on the defensive as often.

It's not that everyone in NYC is status-obsessed, not at all! Wonderful people with complicated, difficult lives and values like yours are there too. But it is *so hard* to find them amongst the teeming masses. And more importantly, it is *so hard* there to find the peace and space and rest you're going to need to get into therapy and do the work you need to do with yourself, because just continuing to be alive in NYC requires so many working hours, so much vigilance, so much transience.

I know, I know, you say:
I can't leave this area since I don't have a great background or amazing job skills and I'm pretty much stuck here.

But like, that statement doesn't actually make any sense. Lord, if you needed an amazing background and specialized job skills to get by in the Midwest, almost nobody I know would even exist.

So that's my main advice. Move. To a cheaper city, a smaller one, where the nuts and bolts of daily living are just easier. Frowner's Minneapolis suggestion is a great one; if the cold weather is a dealbreaker, maybe a place like Louisville or Raleigh-Durham. Shit, even Chicago feels like a vacation compared to NYC. Get a job where you would work sane hours and have the time you need for therapy AND culture (which does exist outside of NYC, despite what New Yorkers would have you believe).
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:06 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]


Look, this is hard for everyone. And I say this as someone with an upper middle class background, a successful job, and a fancy academic pedigree.

I know a professor who also went to fancy colleges that I dated. She ended up not being so interested in me, and now she complains that she's single.

Screw the haters who think you're a snob for being more intellectual and literary than they are. Because there are plenty of people who aren't insecure about intellectualism.

But the truth is that NYC is full of a lot of self-absorbed people concentrating on their own goals and their own concerns, and that's not going to leave a lot of concern for you.

I can see the anger at having been "cheated" leaping off the page. And I have a feeling I have read a lot of your story elsewhere. I know it sucks. At the same time, NYC is the land of opportunity... Anything can happen! You can build the life you always wanted for yourself!

I will leave you with one last thing... I have had relationships that were he ones I ostensibly "wanted" to have after looking for a while. However, I screwed them up because I still hadn't dealt with my own problems. I think I am better now, but I know that even if some things that didn't work out had worked out after all, I would have screwed it up because I was in a bad place in life. I cannot stress enough the importance of working on your own issues before you have a romantic relationship with someone.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 9:46 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


One more thing... Even I am considering a 2 year "sabbatical" from NYC to pursue other professional and social opportunities.
posted by bright colored sock puppet at 9:48 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't understand your perception that being interested in arts and culture and not coming from a family of millionaires is some kind of insane study in contrasts that will make dating impossible. I have been publicly educated my whole life and don't come from a wealthy family, but I have a deep appreciation for film and don't blow my nose on my clothes. That is....pretty normal for a person living in New York City?

You really need to seek some therapy for these issues before you can start dating again. Like someone else pointed out, you seem eager to discuss these issues with someone, and it's probably the single best thing you could do for yourself right now.
posted by cakelite at 10:32 AM on November 18, 2015 [4 favorites]


Stop considering the stuck-up snobs as viable candidates, and you'll probably have better luck.
posted by stormyteal at 2:23 PM on November 18, 2015


It looks like there's a LOT here to unpack OP, and I'd really suggest continuing to work on unpacking it. I'm going to respond specifically to this:

So I've got nothing in common with ANYBODY!

There are lots of other people who have overcome bad upbringings who will get you. I know this.
posted by cnc at 3:37 PM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


Response by poster: Wow, thank you for all of this great advice and support. I don't think this has anything to do with women in NYC, but my family and upbringing. I had no idea! It's crazy how much I'm letting this influence me... maybe I just need to accept the unpleasant reality of all that, and find a way to move on. I don't think I'm going to date until I go through therapy. Thanks again everyone.
posted by gehenna_lion at 4:29 PM on November 18, 2015 [15 favorites]


Whew, dude- I have to say that I'm glad to hear you want to get yourself sorted out before you try dating again because that is like really, really the way to go.

No one can build a solid relationship when they are struggling with their own self-worth. It's really not a failing on your part. You're clearly bitter, and hurt, and jealous- for very good reasons! It just still hurts you no matter how within your rights you are to have all those feelings. And it is way way better to get your self healthy before choosing someone to partner with- even for just the fact that any chick who has poor enough boundaries to jump in it with you while you need to focus on stablizing? I can promise you that woman does not make good choices and will make not good choices throughout your partnership.

As for anecdotal evidence. I live in NYC. When I started dating my husband he wasn't making bank or Harvard educated. My best lady friends are bartenders, burlesque performers, city workers and teachers. Our healthy, lasting relationships are all with guys who have their own issues (and some deeply serious) but they all are dedicated to working those into things that inform their lives instead of ruining them. We're boring, smartypants normal women who have boring, average lives and dated lots of boring, normal, working to middle class dudes until we met one that meshed well with our own issues. No one I knew had any rules about pay scale or passport stamps.

I know lots of women right now who are dating or looking to date good guys with brains and stability to just have a good, boring version of adulthood with- your experience confuses me.

When you're ready to go back into the fray- maybe stay out of Manhattan? That place is kinda filled it douches. (Outer boroughs, whoot whoot)
posted by Blisterlips at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]


My understanding of New York City, having never been there, is that it has a quite diverse (and extensive) population. Many of this population, perhaps as much as half or more, will be women.

With such a broad spectra of womenfolk, of all ages and ethnicities and proclivities and levels of receptiveness and knowledge, and such different heighths and depths and breadths, and richnesses of inner and outer life, and personal histories and upbringings, I submit that you are possibly not diversifying yourself sufficiently and need to try a different bar*.

Also, I'm not a woman, but I'm never less impressed by somebody than when they start talking about where and how they were educated. It's possible that some women have similar feelings.

*You know what I mean.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:06 PM on November 22, 2015


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