Toddler bedtime is monkey time
November 13, 2015 7:04 AM Subscribe
How can we shorten the time from lights out to going to bed and sleeping? Our two-year-old energizer bunny takes an hour or more of climbing about, initiating interaction, jumping on the bed, etc. after lights out.
Our routine is tooth brushing, going into the bedroom, reading one specific bedtime book with mom, reading another specific bedtime book with dad, lights out, monkey time. We only have one bedroom and already more than half a year ago, we had to remove one side of the crib as he was climbing over it. That means he can go anywhere in the room and we can't live him there alone. Usually, it's both parents present at bedtime, occasionally it's only one of us. Toddler falls asleep either on our bed or on his little (crib) bed. We've tried varying bedtimes, that doesn't seem to have much effect, except if we wait too long, he gets overexcited and cranky. We've tried being extremely boring and we've tried engaging with him in a calm way until he stops being so interactive. He spends a lot of time outside with daycare and thus gets quite a lot of exercise during the day.
Any ideas? Is there anything we can do after reading in the bedroom while the lights are still on? One of us is skeptical toward playing on the bed, the other about even bringing toys into the bedroom other than the baby doll that is already attending the bedtime ritual and maybe stuffed animals.
Our routine is tooth brushing, going into the bedroom, reading one specific bedtime book with mom, reading another specific bedtime book with dad, lights out, monkey time. We only have one bedroom and already more than half a year ago, we had to remove one side of the crib as he was climbing over it. That means he can go anywhere in the room and we can't live him there alone. Usually, it's both parents present at bedtime, occasionally it's only one of us. Toddler falls asleep either on our bed or on his little (crib) bed. We've tried varying bedtimes, that doesn't seem to have much effect, except if we wait too long, he gets overexcited and cranky. We've tried being extremely boring and we've tried engaging with him in a calm way until he stops being so interactive. He spends a lot of time outside with daycare and thus gets quite a lot of exercise during the day.
Any ideas? Is there anything we can do after reading in the bedroom while the lights are still on? One of us is skeptical toward playing on the bed, the other about even bringing toys into the bedroom other than the baby doll that is already attending the bedtime ritual and maybe stuffed animals.
Response by poster: He's two years and two months old, sleeps about 1.5 hours at daycare, about 10 during the night. He seems tired at bedtime, rubbing his eyes and stating how tired the animals in the books are. Also forgot to say, the bedroom is dimly lit at bedtime and then we turn the light off. And this is not a new problem at all, just getting tired of it.
posted by meijusa at 7:22 AM on November 13, 2015
posted by meijusa at 7:22 AM on November 13, 2015
Turn off any light-emitting electronic devices about one hour before monkey time starts.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:28 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:28 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
DROP THE NAP.
(Or get daycare to!)
My daughter is only 22 months and for the last four months or so, bedtime has gotten longer and longer and taken more and more work. We have her on a floor bed, so it would be sometimes 2+ hours of her popping out of bed and running around despite giving me tired cues like yawning or rubbing or eyes or even saying "night night!" and tucking herself in. I'm home with her, and it's also gotten more difficult to get her down for naps. I was resorting to sitting in an idling car to get her to nap.
On a whim, I decided to see what happened if I skipped it. The answer was that she was a little cranky around dinner time, but went to bed in five minutes two hours earlier than normal. Five minutes! She could barely get through the bedtime routine most nights.
I'd been clinging to naps out of some hazy idea that I was getting more done, but I'm actually much more productive with an earlier bedtime, less frustrated, and less exhausted. She still naps maybe once every three days. I'm working on being able to take car rides without her nodding off. But the results are pretty clear: if she takes a nap, however brief, she is up until midnight running around like a hooligan. If she doesn't, she's out by eight thirty, nine at the latest, without a fight at all.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:29 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
(Or get daycare to!)
My daughter is only 22 months and for the last four months or so, bedtime has gotten longer and longer and taken more and more work. We have her on a floor bed, so it would be sometimes 2+ hours of her popping out of bed and running around despite giving me tired cues like yawning or rubbing or eyes or even saying "night night!" and tucking herself in. I'm home with her, and it's also gotten more difficult to get her down for naps. I was resorting to sitting in an idling car to get her to nap.
On a whim, I decided to see what happened if I skipped it. The answer was that she was a little cranky around dinner time, but went to bed in five minutes two hours earlier than normal. Five minutes! She could barely get through the bedtime routine most nights.
I'd been clinging to naps out of some hazy idea that I was getting more done, but I'm actually much more productive with an earlier bedtime, less frustrated, and less exhausted. She still naps maybe once every three days. I'm working on being able to take car rides without her nodding off. But the results are pretty clear: if she takes a nap, however brief, she is up until midnight running around like a hooligan. If she doesn't, she's out by eight thirty, nine at the latest, without a fight at all.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:29 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh, and on days she naps, she sleeps 10 hours at night. When she doesn't, it's almost exactly 12, so right on target for the amount of sleep for her age.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:32 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:32 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
We went through this with my 2 year old when we converted the crib to a bed, but we sort of have a schedule now and maybe this will help.
We do no screen time after 7 and lower all the house lights at 7:30. At 8 he brushes his teeth and heads to the room. We have a dim lamp that we use for reading books and he has to sit on the bed while we read to him. Anytime he stands up, tries to jump or get off the bed, I say "it's not time for jumping, it's time for reading" and physically sit him back down. After we read a couple stories, he gets his own board book to look at. I'll turn off the lamp and he'll still play with his book in bed. The first few nights there was a lot of trying to stand up and jump after the lights were out, but I just kept repeating that it was time for lying down. Now he doesn't even pretend to read the books, but just holds them like a stuffed animal. I sit nearby, but don't touch him unless I have to.
Overall, it still takes like 20-30 minutes every night, but it's really pleasant quiet time that I've come to enjoy.
The big difference I think was in just lowering the lights and playing quietly before bed. We used to give him a bath right beforehand, but that just riled him up.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 7:33 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
We do no screen time after 7 and lower all the house lights at 7:30. At 8 he brushes his teeth and heads to the room. We have a dim lamp that we use for reading books and he has to sit on the bed while we read to him. Anytime he stands up, tries to jump or get off the bed, I say "it's not time for jumping, it's time for reading" and physically sit him back down. After we read a couple stories, he gets his own board book to look at. I'll turn off the lamp and he'll still play with his book in bed. The first few nights there was a lot of trying to stand up and jump after the lights were out, but I just kept repeating that it was time for lying down. Now he doesn't even pretend to read the books, but just holds them like a stuffed animal. I sit nearby, but don't touch him unless I have to.
Overall, it still takes like 20-30 minutes every night, but it's really pleasant quiet time that I've come to enjoy.
The big difference I think was in just lowering the lights and playing quietly before bed. We used to give him a bath right beforehand, but that just riled him up.
posted by galvanized unicorn at 7:33 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm just throwing this out there but I find that my daughter goes to bed better (and does lots of things better) when she doesn't have two parent's attention. Having each of you take a turn with a book each night might be a little too much social time at bedtime. You each have your own energy levels so when one of you is tired and ready to be firm instead of just being firm you have the option to tag out. This is great a lot of the time but does give the child more attention. When my husband is away on travel my daughter's tantrums are manageable. When he is back they seem to get more drawn out and I think it has something to do with wanting both of our attentions. The bigger the tantrum, the more likely it is that mom will give up and dad will take over. Obviously, there are complex dynamics at play here but I wonder about each of you alternating the bedtime routine?
In our house, one parent does the bedtime prep (toothbrushing, pajamas, tidying up bedroom) and the other does the book. Is one of you having more success at managing the monkey than the other? Might give that person responsibility for that last mile of bedtime for a week and see if new patterns can emerge.
I also remember that bed training at that age was so hard. We actually went back to a crib at 26 months because the total freedom was wearing us all out. She could easily climb in and out of her crib at will, not a problem. But I think those bars did a good job of defining the "sleep space." We didn't finally move to the "big kid" bed until close to 3. Then things went much smoother.
I do think you and your husband need to redefine the bedtime routine somehow and stick to your guns. Your little one is big enough to hear what the new routine is going to be. You might try the bedtime pass. I did at around age 3 and it didn't really work. We gave it up for rules. Heh.
posted by amanda at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
In our house, one parent does the bedtime prep (toothbrushing, pajamas, tidying up bedroom) and the other does the book. Is one of you having more success at managing the monkey than the other? Might give that person responsibility for that last mile of bedtime for a week and see if new patterns can emerge.
I also remember that bed training at that age was so hard. We actually went back to a crib at 26 months because the total freedom was wearing us all out. She could easily climb in and out of her crib at will, not a problem. But I think those bars did a good job of defining the "sleep space." We didn't finally move to the "big kid" bed until close to 3. Then things went much smoother.
I do think you and your husband need to redefine the bedtime routine somehow and stick to your guns. Your little one is big enough to hear what the new routine is going to be. You might try the bedtime pass. I did at around age 3 and it didn't really work. We gave it up for rules. Heh.
posted by amanda at 8:59 AM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
To echo what others said, cut back on the nap. If my son naps more than about 45 minutes, every extra minute of nap time is about two minutes later to bed. I'd try cutting the nap back to an hour for a week or so to see if that helps.
posted by procrastination at 9:01 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by procrastination at 9:01 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
With my older kid when he acted like a hooligan at bedtime, an EARLIER bedtime helped with getting him to sleep better. They were getting that thing where you are so exhausted that you get wired and have trouble sleeping. Moving bedtime back half an hour helped a lot.
Something like a backrub or guided imagery with stretching might also help. My two year old has a tendency to wake up in the middle of the night and it's hard to get him to go back to deep sleep without a gentle backrub.
Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child is my favorite sleep book. Weissbluth can be a little rigid at times but I really got a lot out of his explanations of normal sleep physiology, and also a lot from the idea that, if your toddler is giving you sleep cues, they are probably overtired and need more sleep. With my second kid, we have been much more rigid about putting him down when he's still bright eyed and bushy tailed, and he sleeps much better.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Something like a backrub or guided imagery with stretching might also help. My two year old has a tendency to wake up in the middle of the night and it's hard to get him to go back to deep sleep without a gentle backrub.
Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child is my favorite sleep book. Weissbluth can be a little rigid at times but I really got a lot out of his explanations of normal sleep physiology, and also a lot from the idea that, if your toddler is giving you sleep cues, they are probably overtired and need more sleep. With my second kid, we have been much more rigid about putting him down when he's still bright eyed and bushy tailed, and he sleeps much better.
posted by The Elusive Architeuthis at 9:11 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I would not drop the nap at this stage. I'd look at some bedtime story podcasts or quiet music or light guided meditation you can listen to together lying down with lights out. You can also tell (rather than read) stories that all lead towards sleep. My kiddo really loved a story about a ceiling fan that spun around and around so fast and then got tired and slooooooowed down and went to sleep. Our preschool teacher also suggested a great technique for changes in routine: at dinner or some other time that is not bedtime, mention "Hey Kiddo, we learned something new about bedtimes today. We learned we weren't really doing it the right way for you, and that we should try some different things to help you get to sleep. We're sorry we didn't know the right way! But now we do, so we're going to try something different tonight." Kids love the idea that their parents can be wrong and try new things, and can be more willing to go along with a new plan if framed this way.
posted by judith at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by judith at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
They were getting that thing where you are so exhausted that you get wired and have trouble sleeping.
Seconding this. We call this "the window", and it's a very small amount of time with our kids. Maybe 30 minutes tops. If you miss the window, it's monkey time. That moment where your child is rubbing his eyes? That's the window closing.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Seconding this. We call this "the window", and it's a very small amount of time with our kids. Maybe 30 minutes tops. If you miss the window, it's monkey time. That moment where your child is rubbing his eyes? That's the window closing.
posted by JoeZydeco at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
You've got to stiffen up and quit interacting (talking and playing and even talking denials) with the kid. You'll have about 1-3 days of horrible-ness, then lessening to 3-5 days of bad, diminishing to 3-5 days of not bad, and finally okay as long as both parents stick to the routine:
1) hugs and kisses and good nights and I love yous, lights out, (with no books or games or tablet), and then walk away and close the door
2) turn back number 1: hug, lead kid by the hand back to bed, help him get in it, another hug, maybe one good night, and then walk away and close the door
3) turn back number 2: (you do not verbally or non-verbally respond, to kid's talking/actions) lead kid by the hand back to bed, no hugs, help him get in it, (continued no response from you), no hugs, and then walk away and close the door
. . . repeating the #3's "no response turn-backs" until kid stays in bed. It might take 10 minutes of turn backs to as long as 90(!) minutes of turn-backs for the kid to understand. It might take 2-4 weeks of this before the kid caves in and stays in bed after step 1. You are the parents and the heads-of-household so both need to have patience and stamina and fortitude to believe that what you're doing is correct and right and that you will persevere. Start this routine on a Friday night so that you can nap on Saturday and Sunday afternoons when the kid naps. Naps aren't the problem. It's your bedtime routine for him.
If the kid complains during a turn-back about being hot or cold, make clothing/bed covers adjustments during the turn-back as needed without any verbal or non-verbal response from you.
Your routine needs to be the same every night because kids need routine. There's so many things about his life that change/are new and the kid appreciates routine. You need to adhere to the routine for your kid's sake, even if you're not a routine and punctual person.
There will be middle of the night get-ups and too early get-ups. The same bedtime turn-back routine needs to be followed.
There shouldn't be any negotiation with the kid during the bedtime routine. He's craving the attention and negotiation is caving in. When you start responding, even if it's a negative response/scolding/threatening punishment, is giving the kid the thing he wants: attention.
Both parents need to have the same resolve and that parental voice needs to be unified. If the parents' voices aren't unified, the kid sees it and the behavioral correction gets lengthened. Initially, bedtime turn-backs are an intense effort by both parties (you and the kid). Work the bedtime turn-backs in shifts, if needed: you work the first five minutes of turn-backs, parent #2 works the second five, you work the third five minutes, parent #2 works the fourth five, . . . If parent #2 doesn't/can't adhere to the plan, parent #1 needs to tell parent #2: never mind, I've got it.
Want to see it in action? that British nanny who was on ABC and one of her segments on video
posted by dlwr300 at 9:55 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
1) hugs and kisses and good nights and I love yous, lights out, (with no books or games or tablet), and then walk away and close the door
2) turn back number 1: hug, lead kid by the hand back to bed, help him get in it, another hug, maybe one good night, and then walk away and close the door
3) turn back number 2: (you do not verbally or non-verbally respond, to kid's talking/actions) lead kid by the hand back to bed, no hugs, help him get in it, (continued no response from you), no hugs, and then walk away and close the door
. . . repeating the #3's "no response turn-backs" until kid stays in bed. It might take 10 minutes of turn backs to as long as 90(!) minutes of turn-backs for the kid to understand. It might take 2-4 weeks of this before the kid caves in and stays in bed after step 1. You are the parents and the heads-of-household so both need to have patience and stamina and fortitude to believe that what you're doing is correct and right and that you will persevere. Start this routine on a Friday night so that you can nap on Saturday and Sunday afternoons when the kid naps. Naps aren't the problem. It's your bedtime routine for him.
If the kid complains during a turn-back about being hot or cold, make clothing/bed covers adjustments during the turn-back as needed without any verbal or non-verbal response from you.
Your routine needs to be the same every night because kids need routine. There's so many things about his life that change/are new and the kid appreciates routine. You need to adhere to the routine for your kid's sake, even if you're not a routine and punctual person.
There will be middle of the night get-ups and too early get-ups. The same bedtime turn-back routine needs to be followed.
There shouldn't be any negotiation with the kid during the bedtime routine. He's craving the attention and negotiation is caving in. When you start responding, even if it's a negative response/scolding/threatening punishment, is giving the kid the thing he wants: attention.
Both parents need to have the same resolve and that parental voice needs to be unified. If the parents' voices aren't unified, the kid sees it and the behavioral correction gets lengthened. Initially, bedtime turn-backs are an intense effort by both parties (you and the kid). Work the bedtime turn-backs in shifts, if needed: you work the first five minutes of turn-backs, parent #2 works the second five, you work the third five minutes, parent #2 works the fourth five, . . . If parent #2 doesn't/can't adhere to the plan, parent #1 needs to tell parent #2: never mind, I've got it.
Want to see it in action? that British nanny who was on ABC and one of her segments on video
posted by dlwr300 at 9:55 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, if you look at the situation from your child's perspective: s/he has the two people she loves the most, with their undivided attention on her, in a place that's safe and cosy. Why wouldn't she want to draw it out? It might be one of her favourite times of the day. If you want to shorten the bedtime, can you create another time in the evening when she gets to bask in your attention?
I know it's frustrating - my son likes to talk for an hour before falling asleep and because I'm a student, I'm always thinking about the pile of homework I need to do later. But it's such a good time to connect with him, and it's when he tells me what really happened at school that day, and what he's worried about, and he can ask lots of questions about things he's thinking about. So I've grown to appreciate bedtime as not just another task to check off, but as vital family time.
So maybe you could take turns doing bedtime so the other parent has some recharge time, or you could create a different family together time. But you might consider that this evening time is special to your child, and find a way to enjoy it together. Massage is a good idea too, I ease my son towards sleep by starting with a back rub, and massaging his arms and ever-busy hands. He also has a nightlight that shuts off after 20 minutes, so if he still hasn't fallen asleep that reinforces that it really is time to rest.
posted by meringue at 10:02 AM on November 13, 2015
I know it's frustrating - my son likes to talk for an hour before falling asleep and because I'm a student, I'm always thinking about the pile of homework I need to do later. But it's such a good time to connect with him, and it's when he tells me what really happened at school that day, and what he's worried about, and he can ask lots of questions about things he's thinking about. So I've grown to appreciate bedtime as not just another task to check off, but as vital family time.
So maybe you could take turns doing bedtime so the other parent has some recharge time, or you could create a different family together time. But you might consider that this evening time is special to your child, and find a way to enjoy it together. Massage is a good idea too, I ease my son towards sleep by starting with a back rub, and massaging his arms and ever-busy hands. He also has a nightlight that shuts off after 20 minutes, so if he still hasn't fallen asleep that reinforces that it really is time to rest.
posted by meringue at 10:02 AM on November 13, 2015
Nthing that two parents is too stimulating. We alternated*; one night me, the next him. That one person did all of the nighttime stuff; teethbrushing, pajamas, storytime. Part of the routine was to go hug the non-bedtime parent so that you still got the good-night part.
Kids love to draw out bedtime, especially if their parents work during the day, because it really is the one time their parents aren't distracted and are totally focused on them. They don't know it's because we're desperate for them to go to sleep so we can have some alone time. It's a cruel irony.
*Oh and he is 10 and this is still pretty much what we do. Except that he gets himself ready before the stories. He reads fine but likes being read to, so we're keeping it up till he tells us to stop.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on November 13, 2015
Kids love to draw out bedtime, especially if their parents work during the day, because it really is the one time their parents aren't distracted and are totally focused on them. They don't know it's because we're desperate for them to go to sleep so we can have some alone time. It's a cruel irony.
*Oh and he is 10 and this is still pretty much what we do. Except that he gets himself ready before the stories. He reads fine but likes being read to, so we're keeping it up till he tells us to stop.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on November 13, 2015
I learned early on that books energized my daughter before bed. Therefore, no books before bed ever for her. Books are for breakfast.
posted by clawsoon at 11:04 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by clawsoon at 11:04 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Want to see it in action? that British nanny who was on ABC and one of her segments on video
Oh yeah, that Supernanny was actually rock-on with many, many of her strategies and tactics. If you can zip past the reality TV aspect, the advice is solid.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:12 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh yeah, that Supernanny was actually rock-on with many, many of her strategies and tactics. If you can zip past the reality TV aspect, the advice is solid.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:12 AM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
I will say that we tried many of the suggestions people have raised up thread before eliminating the nap, like getting down to one parent at bedtime and having a much more structured bedtime routine. Nothing worked, and it increasingly didn't work. If you find yourself in that position, and end up dropping the nap and finding it works for you, rest assured you're not alone: 1/4 kids stop napping by age 3. This is really the era where many kids will begin to have less of a need for daytime sleep.
The last straw for me was when I was falling asleep in my own bed while my kid was happily playing on the floor next to me. Forget about the idea that the parent must be reinforcing the behavior. My daughter simply wasn't tired, and I certainly was.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:51 PM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
The last straw for me was when I was falling asleep in my own bed while my kid was happily playing on the floor next to me. Forget about the idea that the parent must be reinforcing the behavior. My daughter simply wasn't tired, and I certainly was.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:51 PM on November 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Our guy is 2.9 now and we've had waves of this. He actually is still in his crib (miraculously), but broke part of it because of crazy jumping... so that helped curb that a bit. Ceasing to engage is what works with us. If he will not put his pajamas on, we turn off the light and close the door, saying he should let us know when he's ready. Usually it takes 1 minute and he yells that he's ready. It's actually happening as I type, I just heard "I'm ready mama!" I've sat and read books while he hurled himself around the room being a maniac, ignoring him the best I could, but when the 3 books were done he went in his bed.
It may be the book referenced above, but one of the sleep experts say by 5 hours of awake time, kids this age should be able to wind down and go to bed. Ours sleeps 9-7 (or 7:30) and naps 2 hours or a little more. We don't let him sleep later than 3:30 either.
In terms of routine, one parent does tooth brushing/bath/diaper and the other does books and bed. Sticking to the routine helps. Good luck - I know how exhausting it is! One other thing, we had to be super strict about jumping on our bed because that became a thing at bedtime...
posted by jdl at 5:27 PM on November 13, 2015
It may be the book referenced above, but one of the sleep experts say by 5 hours of awake time, kids this age should be able to wind down and go to bed. Ours sleeps 9-7 (or 7:30) and naps 2 hours or a little more. We don't let him sleep later than 3:30 either.
In terms of routine, one parent does tooth brushing/bath/diaper and the other does books and bed. Sticking to the routine helps. Good luck - I know how exhausting it is! One other thing, we had to be super strict about jumping on our bed because that became a thing at bedtime...
posted by jdl at 5:27 PM on November 13, 2015
This thread is closed to new comments.
He's 8 now and when he has restless nights it still works like a charm.
posted by ReluctantViking at 7:10 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]