Flying Damaged US Flags
November 10, 2015 9:30 AM Subscribe
The US military follows a time honored tradition of retiring and destroying damaged US flags. That protocol is outlined in US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1 which (link) outlines the disposing of such flags in a manner that shows respect for the flag and the service it has provided. Yet, I frequently see people flying very damaged flags in very prominent locations.
Do people have a First Amendment right to fly a damaged US flag and if so, why would they want to? By flying a damaged flag, what are they saying?
Do people have a First Amendment right to fly a damaged US flag and if so, why would they want to? By flying a damaged flag, what are they saying?
In my experience it's usually saying "I'm too lazy/cheap to buy a new flag." (Alternatively: haven't noticed, too poor.)
There have been a few times (maybe 4?) when I've noticed a beat to hell flag flying on a big pretty building in the Chicago Loop. In those situations I've made a note of it then called the building office the next day telling them their flag is beat to hell and maybe they should replace it. Every time a new flag was put up within a week.
And then another time there was a school in my neighborhood whose flag was just shredded. It's a poor school in a poor area of town. In that situation I mailed them a check and told them to use it towards a new flag. That flag was also replaced.
I have no idea about the etiquette/rules of flying a tattered flag, but for whatever reason apparently it's A Thing That Bugs Me, so I tend to butt in to try to fix it.
posted by phunniemee at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2015 [43 favorites]
There have been a few times (maybe 4?) when I've noticed a beat to hell flag flying on a big pretty building in the Chicago Loop. In those situations I've made a note of it then called the building office the next day telling them their flag is beat to hell and maybe they should replace it. Every time a new flag was put up within a week.
And then another time there was a school in my neighborhood whose flag was just shredded. It's a poor school in a poor area of town. In that situation I mailed them a check and told them to use it towards a new flag. That flag was also replaced.
I have no idea about the etiquette/rules of flying a tattered flag, but for whatever reason apparently it's A Thing That Bugs Me, so I tend to butt in to try to fix it.
posted by phunniemee at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2015 [43 favorites]
I think you are putting more symbolism into it then there really is.
I would imagine that a majority of people aren't doing it to make a statement, its more that they have a flag that has gotten old/tattered, and which costs money to replace, so they don't do it. Federal/State/City government property has image reasons and likely the budget to keep the flag looking good. The average citizen who maybe put a flag up for the 4th of July and just left it there doesn't.
posted by Captain_Science at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
I would imagine that a majority of people aren't doing it to make a statement, its more that they have a flag that has gotten old/tattered, and which costs money to replace, so they don't do it. Federal/State/City government property has image reasons and likely the budget to keep the flag looking good. The average citizen who maybe put a flag up for the 4th of July and just left it there doesn't.
posted by Captain_Science at 9:39 AM on November 10, 2015 [4 favorites]
Given that burning a flag in a non-respectful manner (not for disposal, but for protest) is legal, as is displaying it upside down without an emergency, using it as clothing, napkins, plates, etc. or attaching it to a car by means of clear tape, the first amendment allows you to do just about anything you want with an American flag.
By flying a damaged flag, I always thought of it as meaning "I really don't care about this object, I put it up for jingoistic reasons and forgot about it." If it's a governmental agency flying a damaged flag, that says to me that they don't have the budget to get a new one.
posted by Hactar at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
By flying a damaged flag, I always thought of it as meaning "I really don't care about this object, I put it up for jingoistic reasons and forgot about it." If it's a governmental agency flying a damaged flag, that says to me that they don't have the budget to get a new one.
posted by Hactar at 9:40 AM on November 10, 2015 [9 favorites]
Oh, I'll also note that I don't care one bit when Joe Schmo down the block flies a tattered flag. Only when it's some huge, public facing one.
posted by phunniemee at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 9:41 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
Phunniemee, did you ever live in MN? Because I was the manager of a public building in MN, and every time the flag out front got a little bit ratty we would start getting phone calls. Was one of those citizens you, by chance? :-)
I got into the habit of replacing the flag twice a year: Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. 6ish months was about the standard life for a standard flag that was kept up all year round (unless ordered half-staff).
posted by Elly Vortex at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
I got into the habit of replacing the flag twice a year: Memorial Day and Veteran's Day. 6ish months was about the standard life for a standard flag that was kept up all year round (unless ordered half-staff).
posted by Elly Vortex at 9:42 AM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
They are saying, "I want to be patriotic, but I'm too lazy do do it right." There's no message, no Jimi Hendrix or Jasper Johns with a subtext that undermines the statement. No one knows that there is such a thing as the Flag Code, nor would care if they knew.
As far as the first amendement goes, you could douse a fresh, new flag in gasoline every day if you were doing it in your own yard, and no one could force you to stop.
I've considered starting a charity whose sole purpose is to approach those with flags that are unfit to fly, and offer to replace them free of charge, because it is a widespread problem.
posted by wnissen at 9:43 AM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
As far as the first amendement goes, you could douse a fresh, new flag in gasoline every day if you were doing it in your own yard, and no one could force you to stop.
I've considered starting a charity whose sole purpose is to approach those with flags that are unfit to fly, and offer to replace them free of charge, because it is a widespread problem.
posted by wnissen at 9:43 AM on November 10, 2015 [6 favorites]
People have a right to fly the American flag any way they damn please. That said, the flags you are seeing most likely are not being flown in that condition to make any kind of statement.
posted by slkinsey at 9:43 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 9:43 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Almost all of the rules in the The "Flag Code" (4 USC sections 1-10) are actually permissive: they say what "should" happen, but do not provide for any penalities for the violation (except for 4 USC section 3 which provides misdemeanor penalities for using the flag for advertising purposes within the District of Columbia)
So, even though 4 USC section 8(k) says: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." There is nothing to force anyone to do so.
As others have commented, the "message" being conveyed here is probably just "laziness." If it bothers you, call and complain, and don't do business with the organizations that don't fly the flag to your standards.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
So, even though 4 USC section 8(k) says: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." There is nothing to force anyone to do so.
As others have commented, the "message" being conveyed here is probably just "laziness." If it bothers you, call and complain, and don't do business with the organizations that don't fly the flag to your standards.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:47 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
My understanding was that the flag code is a set of guidelines for how to handle the flag, rather than a set of binding laws. This report (The United States Flag: Federal Law Relating to Display and Associated Questions by John R. Luckey, attorney) that was put together for Congress backs that up:
Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.
Also, just a historical note: the Flag Code is a relatively recent piece of legislation (in the grand scheme of things anyway). It didn't become public law until 1942. In the 19th century, for example, during the Civil War, people had quite different ideas about how to handle a flag. It was quite common for individual regiments to write on their flag or otherwise decorate it. They treasured battered flags that had made it through many battles and they flew and displayed those flags proudly.
posted by colfax at 9:57 AM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
Thus, the Flag Code does not prescribe any penalties for non-compliance nor does it include enforcement provisions; rather the Code functions simply as a guide to be voluntarily followed by civilians and civilian groups.
Also, just a historical note: the Flag Code is a relatively recent piece of legislation (in the grand scheme of things anyway). It didn't become public law until 1942. In the 19th century, for example, during the Civil War, people had quite different ideas about how to handle a flag. It was quite common for individual regiments to write on their flag or otherwise decorate it. They treasured battered flags that had made it through many battles and they flew and displayed those flags proudly.
posted by colfax at 9:57 AM on November 10, 2015 [7 favorites]
Nthing the opinion that probably what you're seeing with the flying of a damaged flag is laziness, or ignorance of the fact that there is such a code in place which discourages the flying of a damaged flag. I'm pretty sure your average American is completely unfamiliar with not just the content, but the very existence of US Code, Title 4, Chapter 1. I'm aware of the notion that one shouldn't fly a damaged flag myself, but the only reason I'm aware of it was because I happened to be browsing in a used bookstore's copy of a Girl Scouts' handbook from the 1960's once, and they said that in passing.
I suspect that the people who are aware of such a code probably keep pristine flags.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2015
I suspect that the people who are aware of such a code probably keep pristine flags.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:59 AM on November 10, 2015
My grandfather always flew a flag on a flagpole on his property, and toward the end of his life, one particularly rough winter it became impossible to get the flag down. The cord had frozen to the wheel on a 10' flagpole and we just needed to wait for it to thaw.
My grandfather was a WWII Vet, in his 80's at the time this happened, and I was astonished at the number of people (probably one every other week over the course of a couple of months) would would pull into the driveway, knock on the door, and (to a lesser or greater extent) chew him out for flying a tattered flag.
His response to them was always the same -- it's frozen. The ladder is in the barn. If you feel so strongly about it, climb up and chip the ice away and change it out. Weirdly, nobody ever wanted to actually do that, carry the ladder out to the hill, put it up in a snowdrift, climb up and chip the ice off so that the cord would free. So, he'd shrug and close the door until the next person came along.
Privately, he was bemused. Said that their attitude was much more symbolic of the state of patriotism in the US than his tattered flag was -- everybody wanted to take offense, but nobody actually wanted to be the one to climb the ladder.
So, to answer your question - of course the have the right to fly a damaged flag. And, usually, they're not saying anything much beyond "we have to wait for the thaw" or (sometimes) "I don't want to (or can't) climb the ladder."
My grandfather would tell you that it's just a piece of cloth. It's a symbol, but the important thing about a symbol is not the symbol itself, but the thing being symbolized. He would want you to be more concerned about what goes on in the country, and less concerned about a piece of cloth.
posted by anastasiav at 10:01 AM on November 10, 2015 [55 favorites]
My grandfather was a WWII Vet, in his 80's at the time this happened, and I was astonished at the number of people (probably one every other week over the course of a couple of months) would would pull into the driveway, knock on the door, and (to a lesser or greater extent) chew him out for flying a tattered flag.
His response to them was always the same -- it's frozen. The ladder is in the barn. If you feel so strongly about it, climb up and chip the ice away and change it out. Weirdly, nobody ever wanted to actually do that, carry the ladder out to the hill, put it up in a snowdrift, climb up and chip the ice off so that the cord would free. So, he'd shrug and close the door until the next person came along.
Privately, he was bemused. Said that their attitude was much more symbolic of the state of patriotism in the US than his tattered flag was -- everybody wanted to take offense, but nobody actually wanted to be the one to climb the ladder.
So, to answer your question - of course the have the right to fly a damaged flag. And, usually, they're not saying anything much beyond "we have to wait for the thaw" or (sometimes) "I don't want to (or can't) climb the ladder."
My grandfather would tell you that it's just a piece of cloth. It's a symbol, but the important thing about a symbol is not the symbol itself, but the thing being symbolized. He would want you to be more concerned about what goes on in the country, and less concerned about a piece of cloth.
posted by anastasiav at 10:01 AM on November 10, 2015 [55 favorites]
Of course you can fly a damaged flag; the day they start prosecuting people for doing so is the day we know the fascists have won. But I agree with the other responders - the usual reason is laziness or lack of attention, not a desire to make some sort of anti-flag statement. Same reason you see improperly lit flags at night or flags flying in bad weather that aren't designed for it. phunniemee's response seems like the most constructive to me.
posted by Wretch729 at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2015
posted by Wretch729 at 10:03 AM on November 10, 2015
10 years ago around these parts there were dozens of faded, ripped polyester flags on the windowsills. It took two winters before most of them were gone after the European Football Championship flag mania.
It's true there really isn't that much of a flag culture, but people are lazy everywhere.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2015
It's true there really isn't that much of a flag culture, but people are lazy everywhere.
posted by lmfsilva at 10:19 AM on November 10, 2015
You can fly a flag however you want. There aren't any laws, but there are rules of flag-flying etiquette which I learned in school. I don't think anyone else did. Mostly I see them on private homes. Seeing a tattered flag bugs me, although I have never gone as far as calling someone about it. I figure they're probably ignorant that it's disrespectful, and is not worth my time, energy, and possibly getting shot by an armed lunatic who doesn't like liberals telling him he's doing it wrong (I live in Missouri) to do anything about it.
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 10:21 AM on November 10, 2015
posted by Green Eyed Monster at 10:21 AM on November 10, 2015
By flying a damaged flag, what are they saying?
"I don't have the money and/or time to replace my flag."
posted by Jacqueline at 10:25 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
"I don't have the money and/or time to replace my flag."
posted by Jacqueline at 10:25 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
One of my closest friends flies the flag outside his house. (we don't discuss politics. Ever.) He started flying it at the urging of his son. I give him shit when it gets tattered. He replaces it then.
Moral of the story: it's empty jingoism for most people, and the shredded ones are mostly just laziness.
posted by notsnot at 10:29 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
Moral of the story: it's empty jingoism for most people, and the shredded ones are mostly just laziness.
posted by notsnot at 10:29 AM on November 10, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's also typically the case that the person in an organization most likely to care (PR specialists, the guy who organizes donation drives for the VA hospital, etc.) has absolutely no contact with or influence over the person who is going to get stuck with physically replacing the flag (someone in security or maintenance) and no one ever remembers to tell the accountants to put that in the budget so there's nothing to replace the old one with, anyway.
At my last job, it seemed like we always had an awful torn flag at the exact moment when half the office was on vacation, we were in the three-month budgetary "dead zone" in which no new purchases could be made, and the head of Facilities Management had just suffered a massive heart attack. And for reasons I can't explain, no one is ever willing to do it like we did at Disneyland: buy flags by the case and replace them on a consistent schedule regardless of whether or not they look tattered. I got tired of sending emails notifying people about our torn flags, because the replies were so hopeless and full of the spirit of "I can't imagine having the energy to cope with this."
On the other hand, this is one of the semi-official reasons we have Boy Scout troops. There's probably some kid in your town who earned his Eagle by going all over the place to convince organizations to replace their flags and then he did a proper disposal ceremony (probably with the help of a local American Legion post.) There'll be another kid who picks that as his Eagle project in another year or two, at which point most of the places in your area will suddenly have nice new flags up. It's the circle of life.
posted by SMPA at 11:29 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
At my last job, it seemed like we always had an awful torn flag at the exact moment when half the office was on vacation, we were in the three-month budgetary "dead zone" in which no new purchases could be made, and the head of Facilities Management had just suffered a massive heart attack. And for reasons I can't explain, no one is ever willing to do it like we did at Disneyland: buy flags by the case and replace them on a consistent schedule regardless of whether or not they look tattered. I got tired of sending emails notifying people about our torn flags, because the replies were so hopeless and full of the spirit of "I can't imagine having the energy to cope with this."
On the other hand, this is one of the semi-official reasons we have Boy Scout troops. There's probably some kid in your town who earned his Eagle by going all over the place to convince organizations to replace their flags and then he did a proper disposal ceremony (probably with the help of a local American Legion post.) There'll be another kid who picks that as his Eagle project in another year or two, at which point most of the places in your area will suddenly have nice new flags up. It's the circle of life.
posted by SMPA at 11:29 AM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
CollectiveMind: "Do people have a First Amendment right to fly a damaged US flag and if so, why would they want to? "
OBVIOUSLY yes, and usually because they are lazy. Sometimes it's because you stop noticing it, or because you see it on the way into the building but forget as soon as you start answering e-mails related to your actual job so you're always meaning to get to it, but never do.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2015
OBVIOUSLY yes, and usually because they are lazy. Sometimes it's because you stop noticing it, or because you see it on the way into the building but forget as soon as you start answering e-mails related to your actual job so you're always meaning to get to it, but never do.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:34 AM on November 10, 2015
They give us new flags once a year, usually before Memorial Day. We put them up. Some of them need replacing sooner and we will try to get a new one when it is needed. Sometimes they have them in stock. Sometimes they don't. Recently we got a replacement for the American flag but not the POW flag - so there was a clear discrepancy for a while.
posted by sciencegeek at 11:43 AM on November 10, 2015
posted by sciencegeek at 11:43 AM on November 10, 2015
As SMPA notes, Boy Scouts will probably dispose of your flags for you. When my sons' troop is at summer camp, they do a ceremony and dispose of all the worn-out flags that they can collect throughout the year. (I believe it took an hour of readings & speeches, around a campfire at the peak of summer heat, this year. That's dedication.)
If you can't find a nearby troop, send me your location and I will find one for you. :7)
posted by wenestvedt at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2015
If you can't find a nearby troop, send me your location and I will find one for you. :7)
posted by wenestvedt at 11:47 AM on November 10, 2015
Title IV has no enforcement legislation. In other words, there is no law describing not following the Flag Code as a crime or civil violation.
You have a First Amendment right to do anything with a flag that is not otherwise illegal.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:56 PM on November 10, 2015
You have a First Amendment right to do anything with a flag that is not otherwise illegal.
posted by Ironmouth at 12:56 PM on November 10, 2015
It could be that the said flag has some emotional meaning to them?
posted by stepup at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by stepup at 3:11 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
To derail slightly: the flags that we planted on the moon are almost certainly bleached completely white by the Sun's UV flux, unattenuated by an atmosphere. They haven't been replaced because it would be very expensive.
posted by eriko at 3:20 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by eriko at 3:20 PM on November 10, 2015 [8 favorites]
Consider that the most treasured and symbolically significant American flag in existence is quite damaged, yet on permanent display in the National Museum of American History.
posted by gyusan at 3:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by gyusan at 3:32 PM on November 10, 2015 [2 favorites]
They may be specific flags with sentimental meaning (eg: this was grandpa's flag from Vietnam, so I'm flying it until it rots away), etc. Don't assume you understand others motivation, you'll be wrong often.
posted by blue_beetle at 6:40 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blue_beetle at 6:40 PM on November 10, 2015 [1 favorite]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by demiurge at 9:38 AM on November 10, 2015