Can I refuse to meet with this professor?
November 6, 2015 11:29 AM Subscribe
I been told to setup a meeting with one of my professors, but faculty will only vaguely say it is about my "level of participation" and "demeanor," and have refused to give any further details. What are my options for declining to meet with this professor or arranging some alternative to a one-on-one private meeting? This is at the university level.
To clarify, this is not one of regular professors, but the lab instructor for a once-a-semester practical simulation. I have always found this part of my program to be less than useful, but have dutifully worked my way through past experiences with no problems and high marks. My participation in this semester's lab felt and seemed no different. Academically and in all other program activities I am performing above the class average and with consistent positive feedback from instructors.
The day after this lab, however, I received an email from the Lab Professor (LP) instructing me to meet with my advisor regarding "great concern for [my] level of participation and demeanor" in the lab. I emailed my advisor to set up the meeting and also emailed the LP asking for clarification as to the concerns. Two outcomes came of these actions:
1) I met with my advisor who was surprised that I had not been given any additional details, since she had received an email with a "litany" of complaints about my "uncivil" behavior. She would not provide any additional details, however, and since I had no idea what any of this was about, the meeting ended inconclusively. After the meeting, she sent me an email referring me to a school counselor who works with our department, but who usually handles things like students who have test anxiety.
2) I received an email reply from the LP which basically said that she had wanted to meet with me after the lab, and where she said "I would be willing to meet with you if you would like."
I responded to the email from the LP by indicating that I would be happy to meet with her, but that I did not think such a meeting would be productive unless I were given some specifics as to what we were meeting about. I also cc'd my advisor on the email and asked if meeting with the counselor was actually the appropriate course of action and if there was some sort of formal administrative process that was being followed.
Following this, I received an email from the department chair instructing me to set up a meeting with the LP, ASAP.
At this point I feel like I've been treated incredibly unprofessionally and disrespectfully, and I have no intention of having a private meeting with the LP to discuss "concerns" multiple people have thus far refused to share with me. I have called my office of student services to see if they could provide some sort of arbitration or a neutral observer of the meeting, but apparently they are not big on being in the office on Fridays.
What are my options? Do I have a right to refuse to meet with the LP under the current conditions of 1) not knowing any specifics about the meeting and 2) privately and one-on-one?
To clarify, this is not one of regular professors, but the lab instructor for a once-a-semester practical simulation. I have always found this part of my program to be less than useful, but have dutifully worked my way through past experiences with no problems and high marks. My participation in this semester's lab felt and seemed no different. Academically and in all other program activities I am performing above the class average and with consistent positive feedback from instructors.
The day after this lab, however, I received an email from the Lab Professor (LP) instructing me to meet with my advisor regarding "great concern for [my] level of participation and demeanor" in the lab. I emailed my advisor to set up the meeting and also emailed the LP asking for clarification as to the concerns. Two outcomes came of these actions:
1) I met with my advisor who was surprised that I had not been given any additional details, since she had received an email with a "litany" of complaints about my "uncivil" behavior. She would not provide any additional details, however, and since I had no idea what any of this was about, the meeting ended inconclusively. After the meeting, she sent me an email referring me to a school counselor who works with our department, but who usually handles things like students who have test anxiety.
2) I received an email reply from the LP which basically said that she had wanted to meet with me after the lab, and where she said "I would be willing to meet with you if you would like."
I responded to the email from the LP by indicating that I would be happy to meet with her, but that I did not think such a meeting would be productive unless I were given some specifics as to what we were meeting about. I also cc'd my advisor on the email and asked if meeting with the counselor was actually the appropriate course of action and if there was some sort of formal administrative process that was being followed.
Following this, I received an email from the department chair instructing me to set up a meeting with the LP, ASAP.
At this point I feel like I've been treated incredibly unprofessionally and disrespectfully, and I have no intention of having a private meeting with the LP to discuss "concerns" multiple people have thus far refused to share with me. I have called my office of student services to see if they could provide some sort of arbitration or a neutral observer of the meeting, but apparently they are not big on being in the office on Fridays.
What are my options? Do I have a right to refuse to meet with the LP under the current conditions of 1) not knowing any specifics about the meeting and 2) privately and one-on-one?
From your description, yes, this sounds kind of weird. But I only know your side. You're in college; these people hold the key(s) to your future success. It sounds like you're a nontraditional student given your post history, but you're still a student. So you're going to need to play ball here on their court.
What I'd do in your shoes:
Proactively set up an appointment with that school counselor in good faith. When you make the appointment, forward your advisor's email to him or her (or the office staff) with a notation that he or she might wish to reach out to the advisor in advance of your meeting to get a scope of the problem such as it is, since you don't know at this point.
Write back to your lab professor, copying your advisor and the department chair, and say:
"Per {advisor's} advice, I have made an appointment with the school counselor. I'd like to attend that before we meet together. However, could you please tell me the nature of the meeting you'd like to have with me? Is this meeting disciplinary in nature? I'd like to be able to talk about that at my counseling appointment in order to take advantage of those services."
Go from there. This sounds like you're getting the college equivalent of a Written Warning in the workplace, and it stinks that you feel that they blindsided you. It sounds like your advisor (who would be your manager in this situation) has received complaints about you and did not share those with you in order for your to attend to or adjust your behavior. But it has reached a head and now you've been blindsided with "we've been unhappy with you for a while." It happens in workplaces all the time, unfortunate as it is. But show good faith effort and you'll be fine.
posted by juniperesque at 11:42 AM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
What I'd do in your shoes:
Proactively set up an appointment with that school counselor in good faith. When you make the appointment, forward your advisor's email to him or her (or the office staff) with a notation that he or she might wish to reach out to the advisor in advance of your meeting to get a scope of the problem such as it is, since you don't know at this point.
Write back to your lab professor, copying your advisor and the department chair, and say:
"Per {advisor's} advice, I have made an appointment with the school counselor. I'd like to attend that before we meet together. However, could you please tell me the nature of the meeting you'd like to have with me? Is this meeting disciplinary in nature? I'd like to be able to talk about that at my counseling appointment in order to take advantage of those services."
Go from there. This sounds like you're getting the college equivalent of a Written Warning in the workplace, and it stinks that you feel that they blindsided you. It sounds like your advisor (who would be your manager in this situation) has received complaints about you and did not share those with you in order for your to attend to or adjust your behavior. But it has reached a head and now you've been blindsided with "we've been unhappy with you for a while." It happens in workplaces all the time, unfortunate as it is. But show good faith effort and you'll be fine.
posted by juniperesque at 11:42 AM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
At this point I feel like I've been treated incredibly unprofessionally
You're not the professional in this situation-- the professor is.
There is a script for you to follow when this happens: apologize profusely, promise to work hard and pay attention, and make it through the rest of the semester.
I am seconding contacting the Ombudsman. Speaking to someone and relaying concerns to the ombudsman helped me a lot.
posted by deanc at 11:43 AM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
You're not the professional in this situation-- the professor is.
There is a script for you to follow when this happens: apologize profusely, promise to work hard and pay attention, and make it through the rest of the semester.
I am seconding contacting the Ombudsman. Speaking to someone and relaying concerns to the ombudsman helped me a lot.
posted by deanc at 11:43 AM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Your school may have policies about what sorts of conversations instructors must have with students through different means. In other words, it may be that the reason why you can't get more information through e-mail is because policy requires that sort of information to be presented in person.
Really, we're not really in a position to tell you what your rights are. That depends on your university. But, at least in my experience, it is extremely common for instructors to request one-on-one meetings with students when some sort of issue comes up. Usually, that's the first step for whatever may happen next, which could very well be nothing. This is not extraordinary; it's ordinary. It's not unprofessional but, instead, the way the profession works.
posted by meese at 11:46 AM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
Really, we're not really in a position to tell you what your rights are. That depends on your university. But, at least in my experience, it is extremely common for instructors to request one-on-one meetings with students when some sort of issue comes up. Usually, that's the first step for whatever may happen next, which could very well be nothing. This is not extraordinary; it's ordinary. It's not unprofessional but, instead, the way the profession works.
posted by meese at 11:46 AM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
"Lab Professor,
I am available to meet at the following dates/times:
[list several times]
However, so that all interested parties are kept in the loop, please coordinate with Advisor (CC'd here) so that he/she may be present for the meeting.
Regards,
Panjandrum"
In my experience, the professor should welcome the presence of the advisor (or dean or whoever), as it protects them as much as (or more than) it protects you.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:47 AM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
I am available to meet at the following dates/times:
[list several times]
However, so that all interested parties are kept in the loop, please coordinate with Advisor (CC'd here) so that he/she may be present for the meeting.
Regards,
Panjandrum"
In my experience, the professor should welcome the presence of the advisor (or dean or whoever), as it protects them as much as (or more than) it protects you.
posted by melissasaurus at 11:47 AM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
I see two potential explanations here:
1) You are hostile in class and are so disconnected from the reality of your own behavior that you've ceased to notice what's appropriate, and this is the wake up call you need.
2) The instructor is getting you mixed up with another student who is actually a problem.
Both scenarios are resolved by attending the meeting which ought to clear things up for you either way.
posted by phunniemee at 11:48 AM on November 6, 2015 [109 favorites]
1) You are hostile in class and are so disconnected from the reality of your own behavior that you've ceased to notice what's appropriate, and this is the wake up call you need.
2) The instructor is getting you mixed up with another student who is actually a problem.
Both scenarios are resolved by attending the meeting which ought to clear things up for you either way.
posted by phunniemee at 11:48 AM on November 6, 2015 [109 favorites]
telegraph wrote most of what I would have liked to have said, but I will add one thing: if you do decide to meet with the professor (which is almost certainly a good idea), then really take some time to think about what the professor says to you before arguing about her individual points. Even if you feel that her characterization of you is unfair, do not argue with anything unless it's an absolute statement of fact (i.e. she says "You came to class late" when in fact you were five minutes early).
My read on this is that approaching the meeting in good faith and in a non-argumentative manner is absolutely in your best interest, and if you don't feel you can come to the meeting calm and receptive to new ideas, that's more of a problem than the meeting itself.
posted by mskyle at 11:48 AM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
My read on this is that approaching the meeting in good faith and in a non-argumentative manner is absolutely in your best interest, and if you don't feel you can come to the meeting calm and receptive to new ideas, that's more of a problem than the meeting itself.
posted by mskyle at 11:48 AM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
The department chair has told you to go meet with the LP asap? Get your ass to that meeting. This is escalating, and that is bad. Don't fuck this up for yourself further.
Your reputation is what follows you for the rest of your life, not your marks, and you are intending to lock horns with people who have long memories and more influence on your future than you want to know.
posted by lizbunny at 11:53 AM on November 6, 2015 [110 favorites]
Your reputation is what follows you for the rest of your life, not your marks, and you are intending to lock horns with people who have long memories and more influence on your future than you want to know.
posted by lizbunny at 11:53 AM on November 6, 2015 [110 favorites]
Your use of the term "unprofessionally" stuck with me here. I work in a professional suit-and-tie environment. I wouldn't find it unprofessional if our director told me to meet with one of the deputy chiefs one-on-one without providing me with an agenda of the meeting first. On the other hand, if one of my subordinates reacted to a request for a one-on-one meeting by asking for an agenda and then attempting to get a third-party-neutral involved if I refused the same, I would find that unprofessional, and it would certainly color my interactions with that person in the future.
In my view, your only real option is to go to the meeting and approach the meeting in good faith and in a non-argumentative manner.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:58 AM on November 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
In my view, your only real option is to go to the meeting and approach the meeting in good faith and in a non-argumentative manner.
posted by craven_morhead at 11:58 AM on November 6, 2015 [30 favorites]
Keep in mind that an Ombudsman is generally supposed to be the office of last resort. And they would probably decline to get involved unless all existing avenues have been exhausted.
They might be able to tell you about the various administrative processes that are supposed to accompany discipline – and what you should expect - but they are unlikely to take a complaint that begins with: “They offered me a meeting and I wouldn’t take it.” That’s not administrative unfairness.
In my experience, all managers prefer to begin with a verbal discussion of discipline. You should show up, take notes, and ask them for examples and suggestions.
If you don’t feel you can respond calmly in the moment, tell them you will take away what they’ve said and ask to meet again in a few days. Then mull it over and come back with a professional response.
posted by cranberrymonger at 12:00 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
They might be able to tell you about the various administrative processes that are supposed to accompany discipline – and what you should expect - but they are unlikely to take a complaint that begins with: “They offered me a meeting and I wouldn’t take it.” That’s not administrative unfairness.
In my experience, all managers prefer to begin with a verbal discussion of discipline. You should show up, take notes, and ask them for examples and suggestions.
If you don’t feel you can respond calmly in the moment, tell them you will take away what they’ve said and ask to meet again in a few days. Then mull it over and come back with a professional response.
posted by cranberrymonger at 12:00 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: Unlike everyone else, this strikes me as really, really weird. Not so much that you can't get an email out of anyone but that no one is willing to tell you anything verbally and they're pushing you to see a counselor.
What do they expect the counselor to do if they haven't told you what the issue is? (Unless they've told the counselor and you're walking in to someone who's been primed that you have a problem.) Do they feel that the counselor will immediately be able to identify a giant personality issue from a short exchange with you?
This would make me a bit uneasy, because it sounds like they may be trying to "discipline" you for something without following any policy. Up until the "see a counselor for unspecified problems" and immediate email from the department head for something that is Very Very Bad But Totally Unknown To You, it sounds normal enough - but those two things are way out of the ordinary in my experience of academic life.
I think you should go ahead and have the meeting. Be open to the possibility that it's some kind of huge misunderstanding - you were perceived as really rude because you misspoke, you dropped something and she thought you slammed it down in rage, you said something that she misheard as a curse word, you unintentionally said something sexist or racist through ignorance, etc. If this is the case, apologize and emphasize that you didn't intend to be rude. (I once horribly offended a friend by a truly random joke on a non-sensitive subject and was totally shocked to find out how upset she was - it's possible to say something that you think is totally innocuous and be misunderstood; best plan is to apologize.)
If the meeting is really, really weird - like, you think they're being racist or something - take time immediately after the meeting to write down your memory of the conversation. Write up an email to all involved saying "I wanted to touch base with you about our meeting today. As I understood it, you said [THINGTHINGTHIN] and requested [ACTIONACTIONACTION] from me. Please let me know whether this is correct".
From there, you will have some kind of documentation that you can take to the next level up in the administration.
posted by Frowner at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
What do they expect the counselor to do if they haven't told you what the issue is? (Unless they've told the counselor and you're walking in to someone who's been primed that you have a problem.) Do they feel that the counselor will immediately be able to identify a giant personality issue from a short exchange with you?
This would make me a bit uneasy, because it sounds like they may be trying to "discipline" you for something without following any policy. Up until the "see a counselor for unspecified problems" and immediate email from the department head for something that is Very Very Bad But Totally Unknown To You, it sounds normal enough - but those two things are way out of the ordinary in my experience of academic life.
I think you should go ahead and have the meeting. Be open to the possibility that it's some kind of huge misunderstanding - you were perceived as really rude because you misspoke, you dropped something and she thought you slammed it down in rage, you said something that she misheard as a curse word, you unintentionally said something sexist or racist through ignorance, etc. If this is the case, apologize and emphasize that you didn't intend to be rude. (I once horribly offended a friend by a truly random joke on a non-sensitive subject and was totally shocked to find out how upset she was - it's possible to say something that you think is totally innocuous and be misunderstood; best plan is to apologize.)
If the meeting is really, really weird - like, you think they're being racist or something - take time immediately after the meeting to write down your memory of the conversation. Write up an email to all involved saying "I wanted to touch base with you about our meeting today. As I understood it, you said [THINGTHINGTHIN] and requested [ACTIONACTIONACTION] from me. Please let me know whether this is correct".
From there, you will have some kind of documentation that you can take to the next level up in the administration.
posted by Frowner at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2015 [21 favorites]
So, I don't know how it is at your university, but the state university where I work, our professional emails are pretty open to Freedom of Information Act Requests and subpoenas and we're generally told not to write anything on email we wouldn't want the whole world to read. If I were working with a student that had something going on, I would probably also request a meeting and keep it fairly vague in terms of what the meeting is about, especially if it was our first chat about a problem. Anything I might say about that student's issues almost certainly would never ever come up again even if I did put it down in writing in the semi-public forum of email, but just from having it constantly drilled into us that our emails CAN be read, I might feel like going the extra mile to protect the student's privacy a bit by keeping things as neutrally phrased as possible. So it's within the realm of probability that their non-specificity, while understandably making you really anxious, is actually a way of having your best interests at heart.
Everyone else has good advice, but I just thought I'd chip in on that as well.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
Everyone else has good advice, but I just thought I'd chip in on that as well.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:03 PM on November 6, 2015 [18 favorites]
Get to the meeting, take the chip off your shoulder. Based on how you described the situation, you don't like the class, probably don't have an issue of showing that, even if you are doing good work. Without realizing it, you are giving off negative vibes, if not verbally making comments about the usefulness (or lack thereof) of this particular exercise.
That is then saying that the professor is useless, and doing so in front of his class, whom he expects to get respect from, and you are making a joke of them (from their perspective, if not actually doing so).
And what craven said. LP sent advisor a complaint list about you. Advisor told LP to meet with you. They tried to set that up. You demanded details and started pinging everyone. Because you are annoyed with class and LP.
Meet with LP. IF they are totally off based, detail meeting and send to your advisor and ask to audit the class.
posted by rich at 12:04 PM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
That is then saying that the professor is useless, and doing so in front of his class, whom he expects to get respect from, and you are making a joke of them (from their perspective, if not actually doing so).
And what craven said. LP sent advisor a complaint list about you. Advisor told LP to meet with you. They tried to set that up. You demanded details and started pinging everyone. Because you are annoyed with class and LP.
Meet with LP. IF they are totally off based, detail meeting and send to your advisor and ask to audit the class.
posted by rich at 12:04 PM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
Actually, upon further reflection, I'm with Frowner-- it is a little weird that you DID meet in person with your advisor, and were given no further information about what the actual problem was. I think you should still go to the meeting with LP, but before you go, make sure you write down your recollections of what your meeting with your advisor was like, and save all the communications you've had with everyone so far.
I don't think you need to make sure a third party is present at your meeting with LP, but I do think you need to be prepared to contact the student advocate, ombudsman, or someone with a similar sort of position afterward if necessary. Good luck, and keep us posted.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't think you need to make sure a third party is present at your meeting with LP, but I do think you need to be prepared to contact the student advocate, ombudsman, or someone with a similar sort of position afterward if necessary. Good luck, and keep us posted.
posted by WidgetAlley at 12:07 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Questions of demeanor are always up to interpretation, sure, but that's as far as it goes with your reluctance to meet this person one to one. What the LP is going to tell you is surely also based on observations of your actual self, and so it really can't hurt to go and listen.
...with the LP to discuss "concerns" multiple people have thus far refused to share with me...
The LP wants to meet you in order to share with you the very thing that you're actually requesting to know. I'd say, just go to the meeting, and make sure to listen and write down what you hear. There's always time to react afterwards, if this is what's needed.
"Professionally," well... Even though you've been, let's say, not entirely cooperative until now, the dept. chair is still actually asking you to get in touch about the meeting (instead of just scheduling one), and the LP (has rather kindly I feel) signaled that she, as you write, "would be willing to meet with you if you would like." What's not professional about that?
And finally, "disrespectfully"... It seems that you are thinking that someone is out to get you, while you also pull the me-dutiful-got-good-grades card. Without knowing anything about your actual attitude in that lab, this seems a weird mismatch to the innocent Mefi reader.
posted by Namlit at 12:10 PM on November 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
...with the LP to discuss "concerns" multiple people have thus far refused to share with me...
The LP wants to meet you in order to share with you the very thing that you're actually requesting to know. I'd say, just go to the meeting, and make sure to listen and write down what you hear. There's always time to react afterwards, if this is what's needed.
"Professionally," well... Even though you've been, let's say, not entirely cooperative until now, the dept. chair is still actually asking you to get in touch about the meeting (instead of just scheduling one), and the LP (has rather kindly I feel) signaled that she, as you write, "would be willing to meet with you if you would like." What's not professional about that?
And finally, "disrespectfully"... It seems that you are thinking that someone is out to get you, while you also pull the me-dutiful-got-good-grades card. Without knowing anything about your actual attitude in that lab, this seems a weird mismatch to the innocent Mefi reader.
posted by Namlit at 12:10 PM on November 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Best answer: The innocuous explanation is that this is a perfect storm - the LP has some kind of outside class issue or isn't very good at class organization so she's ready to perceive anything non-standard as unacceptable behavior; you acted kind of disengaged and grumbly even though you weren't trying to be a bad egg; the professor and the chair aren't very good at this stuff the way a lot of academics aren't; and no one thought through the "see a counselor" bit to realize that you can't very well see the person without understanding what you're going in about.
If I were you, I'd go in prepared for that kind of thing - IME, a lot of this stuff turns out to be a combination of small bad factors rather than malice. If you feel that you weren't behaving especially badly and don't want to grovel, emphasize that you apologize for unintentionally causing her discomfort and for behaving in ways that cause her to perceive you as disengaged. What you'd be apologizing for, in that case, wouldn't be wrong-doing; it would be, basically, failure to read the room.
posted by Frowner at 12:14 PM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
If I were you, I'd go in prepared for that kind of thing - IME, a lot of this stuff turns out to be a combination of small bad factors rather than malice. If you feel that you weren't behaving especially badly and don't want to grovel, emphasize that you apologize for unintentionally causing her discomfort and for behaving in ways that cause her to perceive you as disengaged. What you'd be apologizing for, in that case, wouldn't be wrong-doing; it would be, basically, failure to read the room.
posted by Frowner at 12:14 PM on November 6, 2015 [5 favorites]
You seem to think that you have the right to review any accusations/complaints in writing before a face-to-face meeting. You don't, and it would be pretty dumb of your university to agree to your demands. The fact that a few wires got crossed in terms of who was supposed to bring these concerns to your attention is not a sign of "unprofessionalism" or "disrespect". And you should be aware that the way you are responding to this situation will be used as evidence of your poor behavior. Don't let this get out of hand. Meet with the LP ASAP, and don't let your annoyance/anger show.
posted by acidic at 12:22 PM on November 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by acidic at 12:22 PM on November 6, 2015 [11 favorites]
What are my options? Do I have a right to refuse to meet with the LP under the current conditions of 1) not knowing any specifics about the meeting and 2) privately and one-on-one?
A lawyer can advise you of your rights, and I suggest that you prioritize contacting one so you can be better protected from harm to your future career. I respectfully disagree with any answer that suggests your administration is acting in good faith or has your best interests at heart. With the facts you report, that does not at all sound like the case. It sounds a bit like you're being bullied, and one of the few options you have to balance the power disparity here is to hire a lawyer to attend the upcoming meeting with you.
I suggest looking for an attorney with experience in higher education disciplinary processes, as well as discrimination claims.
posted by Little Dawn at 12:32 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
A lawyer can advise you of your rights, and I suggest that you prioritize contacting one so you can be better protected from harm to your future career. I respectfully disagree with any answer that suggests your administration is acting in good faith or has your best interests at heart. With the facts you report, that does not at all sound like the case. It sounds a bit like you're being bullied, and one of the few options you have to balance the power disparity here is to hire a lawyer to attend the upcoming meeting with you.
I suggest looking for an attorney with experience in higher education disciplinary processes, as well as discrimination claims.
posted by Little Dawn at 12:32 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
As a professor, I can say that there is a belief by many to not put issues of academic misconduct in email because of the Freedom of Information Act that was mentioned above and the potential legal issues that may come down the line.
This is very simple. You want to know what is going on and the lab instructor is going to tell you. Getting all these other people involved isn't doing yourself any favors. phunniemee, above, is probably correct.
posted by k8t at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
This is very simple. You want to know what is going on and the lab instructor is going to tell you. Getting all these other people involved isn't doing yourself any favors. phunniemee, above, is probably correct.
posted by k8t at 12:38 PM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Following this, I received an email from the department chair instructing me to set up a meeting with the LP, ASAP.
I'm not clear if you are a graduate student or an undergrad. If you are a graduate student, and the department head tells you to meet with someone, you better get your ass into a meeting with that person asap. I know academia seems all loosey-goosey and not terribly hierarchical, but it actually is and for a grad student, the department head is your boss. You're putting your reputation in the department at risk by kicking up such a fuss about attending a meeting.
Things are a little less clear if you're an undergrad, but I still think by avoiding the Lab Professor, you are not approaching this correctly.
Has it occurred to you that none of these other people want to be put in the situation of relaying Lab Professor's complaints second-hand, and that's why they're not telling you? I wouldn't want to be put in the middle if I was in their place either.
Meet with the LP, take your advisor or the counselor or a student rep along if that makes you feel better, but I don't think continuing to dodge this meeting is best for you.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:46 PM on November 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm not clear if you are a graduate student or an undergrad. If you are a graduate student, and the department head tells you to meet with someone, you better get your ass into a meeting with that person asap. I know academia seems all loosey-goosey and not terribly hierarchical, but it actually is and for a grad student, the department head is your boss. You're putting your reputation in the department at risk by kicking up such a fuss about attending a meeting.
Things are a little less clear if you're an undergrad, but I still think by avoiding the Lab Professor, you are not approaching this correctly.
Has it occurred to you that none of these other people want to be put in the situation of relaying Lab Professor's complaints second-hand, and that's why they're not telling you? I wouldn't want to be put in the middle if I was in their place either.
Meet with the LP, take your advisor or the counselor or a student rep along if that makes you feel better, but I don't think continuing to dodge this meeting is best for you.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:46 PM on November 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: This is weird. I would go to the meeting, but I would cover your ass. Bring a notebook. Be polite and open to their critique or whatever their deal is with you, but take notes. After the meeting, write up a summary and what you decided the outcome(s) were going to be, and email the LP to say "Thanks for meeting with me, as I understand it your concerns were ABC, and I am going to do XYZ to address this. I appreciate your feedback and please let me know if anything else is a concern". I would absolutely keep a written trail of this.
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:46 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nakedmolerats at 12:46 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Actually, upon further reflection, I'm with Frowner-- it is a little weird that you DID meet in person with your advisor, and were given no further information about what the actual problem was.
Information was given, that there were a litany of complaints. That the advisor did not give details might mean that she did not want to get into a discussion in which she did not have details or specifics, and/or felt she could not adequately address the issue(s) at hand.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 12:57 PM on November 6, 2015
Information was given, that there were a litany of complaints. That the advisor did not give details might mean that she did not want to get into a discussion in which she did not have details or specifics, and/or felt she could not adequately address the issue(s) at hand.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 12:57 PM on November 6, 2015
Best answer: Nthing that this would make me super uncomfortable and seems extremely weird, even for academia, but that you probably don't have much choice but to go to the meeting and pretend to be very cheerful to get "feedback" on your behavior, unfortunately. The weirdest part to me is that your adviser won't share any of the details with you, if they're also willing to characterize it as a "litany" of complaints. It sounds like the lab professor thought your adviser would deal with the situation, but then your adviser basically declined to get involved at all beyond believing the LP over you and giving you a vague recommendation to a counselor.
It's also very strange that things are being escalated to the department chair so quickly. Unless you were making other people feel unsafe or substantially disrupting the class, I can't imagine an issue of "participation and demeanor" that would need to involve the department chair - and if it was that bad, I presume you would have some inkling what they're talking about. Is there another student from that class you could ping to see if they have any idea what the issue might be? I'd be happy to answer an email like that from a classmate, if you had any casual buddies in that class that might have noticed anything.
However, unfortunately everyone else is right that they have no obligation to put this in writing before the meeting, and that you probably don't have a lot of choices here (especially given the involvement of the department chair). It's unclear from your question but I really hope this is an undergraduate situation - if I had a graduate adviser who wouldn't even share anything about the complaints they received but was immediately willing to take the other party's side before even hearing mine, I would be very unhappy.
posted by dialetheia at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's also very strange that things are being escalated to the department chair so quickly. Unless you were making other people feel unsafe or substantially disrupting the class, I can't imagine an issue of "participation and demeanor" that would need to involve the department chair - and if it was that bad, I presume you would have some inkling what they're talking about. Is there another student from that class you could ping to see if they have any idea what the issue might be? I'd be happy to answer an email like that from a classmate, if you had any casual buddies in that class that might have noticed anything.
However, unfortunately everyone else is right that they have no obligation to put this in writing before the meeting, and that you probably don't have a lot of choices here (especially given the involvement of the department chair). It's unclear from your question but I really hope this is an undergraduate situation - if I had a graduate adviser who wouldn't even share anything about the complaints they received but was immediately willing to take the other party's side before even hearing mine, I would be very unhappy.
posted by dialetheia at 1:01 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Came here to mention FOIAs, which I see mentioned by another commenter.
I FOIA communication records between researchers, federal agencies, companies, etc. almost every week in my line of work. If a written record is FOIA-able, I've FOIAed it. And read it. And let me tell you, all manner of revealing personal info turns up in these FOIA-able documents.
A person who knows about disclosure laws will always defer to put sensitive information that is not absolutely fine on the public record in any publicly accessible document. Without knowing anything but the details you've presented, I can easily imagine that the people who wish to meet with you would like to avoid putting particular pieces of information--which may be sensitive to you, them, the school, the department, etc--in a place where it may be used against any party at a future date.
A good example of this: I recently reviewed hundreds of pages of communication between a drug company and a regulator. One of the drug company staffers had used their official company email to have a side conversation with another drug company staffer. This conversation mentioned things like their boss' recreational drug use on a work trip, drug use in the office, suspected drug transactions in the office... I mean, this was all unrelated to anything of interest to me, but the act of submitting a FOIA generally brings the materials in question to the attention of the organizations required to share this information. Which means this side conversation went from being a private thing to being very public overnight.
You should probably go to the meeting, and worry about getting things in writing once you know and are comfortable with the meeting topics.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:13 PM on November 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
I FOIA communication records between researchers, federal agencies, companies, etc. almost every week in my line of work. If a written record is FOIA-able, I've FOIAed it. And read it. And let me tell you, all manner of revealing personal info turns up in these FOIA-able documents.
A person who knows about disclosure laws will always defer to put sensitive information that is not absolutely fine on the public record in any publicly accessible document. Without knowing anything but the details you've presented, I can easily imagine that the people who wish to meet with you would like to avoid putting particular pieces of information--which may be sensitive to you, them, the school, the department, etc--in a place where it may be used against any party at a future date.
A good example of this: I recently reviewed hundreds of pages of communication between a drug company and a regulator. One of the drug company staffers had used their official company email to have a side conversation with another drug company staffer. This conversation mentioned things like their boss' recreational drug use on a work trip, drug use in the office, suspected drug transactions in the office... I mean, this was all unrelated to anything of interest to me, but the act of submitting a FOIA generally brings the materials in question to the attention of the organizations required to share this information. Which means this side conversation went from being a private thing to being very public overnight.
You should probably go to the meeting, and worry about getting things in writing once you know and are comfortable with the meeting topics.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:13 PM on November 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
This sounds weird and hard to deal with; I'm sorry it's causing so much trouble for you. Frankly, the tone of this post comes across a bit sneering to me; is it possible your tone and behavior is often interpreted differently than you intend? My read is that LP asked your adviser to meet with you regarding attitude and participation problems, and that your reaction in that meeting was (or was perceived as) defensive or perhaps hostile, to the point that you were referred to counseling and the chair of your department was notified. This is serious.
You sound angry and I understand why (I would be, too), but now is not the time for a display of righteous indignation. I suppose you could, but why on earth would you refuse a meeting your department chair directed you to set up ASAP? You're already fighting a reputation of being "uncivil" and you're only going to compound this if you fight the process. You've got to swallow some pride here even if it turns out you're 100% right and LP is 100% wrong.
That's two situations in a row (the lab and the adviser meeting) in which your behavior may have been perceived as problematic-- tread lightly from here on out. Maybe it's BS. Regardless, you should be taking great care not to come across negatively for now, not shooting off indignant emails and introducing the possibility of a formal disciplinary process when it seems all LP wants to do is meet with you to provide the specifics you in fact demanded in the first place. I think you need to go, I think you need to listen, and I think you need to prepare yourself to hear things you don't want to hear, and find a way to come across as calm and civil and receptive during this meeting. Otherwise, it may well escalate and put your career in jeopardy.
posted by kapers at 1:15 PM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
You sound angry and I understand why (I would be, too), but now is not the time for a display of righteous indignation. I suppose you could, but why on earth would you refuse a meeting your department chair directed you to set up ASAP? You're already fighting a reputation of being "uncivil" and you're only going to compound this if you fight the process. You've got to swallow some pride here even if it turns out you're 100% right and LP is 100% wrong.
That's two situations in a row (the lab and the adviser meeting) in which your behavior may have been perceived as problematic-- tread lightly from here on out. Maybe it's BS. Regardless, you should be taking great care not to come across negatively for now, not shooting off indignant emails and introducing the possibility of a formal disciplinary process when it seems all LP wants to do is meet with you to provide the specifics you in fact demanded in the first place. I think you need to go, I think you need to listen, and I think you need to prepare yourself to hear things you don't want to hear, and find a way to come across as calm and civil and receptive during this meeting. Otherwise, it may well escalate and put your career in jeopardy.
posted by kapers at 1:15 PM on November 6, 2015 [12 favorites]
Yeah, I don't see this as weird. (I'm an associate dean, and have these sorts of meetings with both students and faculty more often than I'd like.)
A couple of points to emphasize:
- If it was my first meeting with someone and I was concerned about conduct issues, I definitely would not send them a list of complaints beforehand - that's what the meeting is about. Sending the list beforehand just encourages people to be defensive and confrontational and debate small points, rather than discussing the big picture. Also, I'd be looking to resolve this informally, without a paper trail or a lot of bureaucratic overhead or drama.
- I think the advisor probably doesn't want to be put in the position of listing a bunch of complaints that he/she can't verify.
- In the cases I've dealt with, when people are difficult or confrontational about meeting, want to try to impose terms or start amateur lawyering, it's usually a good indicator of how they conduct themselves in class.
So I agree. Go, try to really *listen* to what's being said, don't get argumentative, and then reflect before you respond. nakedmolerats has a good strategy for the reply - "Dear so-and-so, my understanding is that we discussed concerns with XYZ. To address those concerns, I am going to do blah, I'm happy to discuss further if necessary. etc."
posted by chbrooks at 1:17 PM on November 6, 2015 [53 favorites]
A couple of points to emphasize:
- If it was my first meeting with someone and I was concerned about conduct issues, I definitely would not send them a list of complaints beforehand - that's what the meeting is about. Sending the list beforehand just encourages people to be defensive and confrontational and debate small points, rather than discussing the big picture. Also, I'd be looking to resolve this informally, without a paper trail or a lot of bureaucratic overhead or drama.
- I think the advisor probably doesn't want to be put in the position of listing a bunch of complaints that he/she can't verify.
- In the cases I've dealt with, when people are difficult or confrontational about meeting, want to try to impose terms or start amateur lawyering, it's usually a good indicator of how they conduct themselves in class.
So I agree. Go, try to really *listen* to what's being said, don't get argumentative, and then reflect before you respond. nakedmolerats has a good strategy for the reply - "Dear so-and-so, my understanding is that we discussed concerns with XYZ. To address those concerns, I am going to do blah, I'm happy to discuss further if necessary. etc."
posted by chbrooks at 1:17 PM on November 6, 2015 [53 favorites]
The student privacy issue is probably the reason no one will tell you anything. I was in a class once with a student who failed to participate and later contested his grade. Even though I was asked for input about how a group project went I was not informed why. I didn't find out about him contesting his grade until he emailed me personally to complain about my report on the project.
Talk to the lab professor. Suck it up. Only another few weeks and the semester's over.
posted by irisclara at 1:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Talk to the lab professor. Suck it up. Only another few weeks and the semester's over.
posted by irisclara at 1:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
I also can't avoid addressing a suggestion like this:
I suggest looking for an attorney with experience in higher education disciplinary processes, as well as discrimination claims.
This is not good first step advice.
As others have intimated, legal counsel or an ombudsman's involvement without fail requires evidence of wrongdoing. That a situation feels weird to you is not sufficient evidence to warrant review by legal counsel nor an ombudsman. People in either position will very openly tell you this.
Right now, there is no disagreement to be settled. You are declining a request for a meeting. This is not a disagreement.
Were this case to come across my desk, I would decline involvement.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:21 PM on November 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
I suggest looking for an attorney with experience in higher education disciplinary processes, as well as discrimination claims.
This is not good first step advice.
As others have intimated, legal counsel or an ombudsman's involvement without fail requires evidence of wrongdoing. That a situation feels weird to you is not sufficient evidence to warrant review by legal counsel nor an ombudsman. People in either position will very openly tell you this.
Right now, there is no disagreement to be settled. You are declining a request for a meeting. This is not a disagreement.
Were this case to come across my desk, I would decline involvement.
posted by late afternoon dreaming hotel at 1:21 PM on November 6, 2015 [8 favorites]
I did not think such a meeting would be productive unless I were given some specifics as to what we were meeting about.
This is not rational. Why would you need to prepare for a meeting about these types of personal issues. How would you even prepare?
You're trying to state a reason for not cooperating with your professors, but your "reason" is no reason at all. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
If you're honestly mystified and no one has given you any specifics, then there's an outside chance they've got you mixed up with someone else. But refusing to meet with your school administration is not the way to clear it up.
posted by JimN2TAW at 1:24 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is not rational. Why would you need to prepare for a meeting about these types of personal issues. How would you even prepare?
You're trying to state a reason for not cooperating with your professors, but your "reason" is no reason at all. You're just digging yourself in deeper.
If you're honestly mystified and no one has given you any specifics, then there's an outside chance they've got you mixed up with someone else. But refusing to meet with your school administration is not the way to clear it up.
posted by JimN2TAW at 1:24 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I fail to see how them telling you that the meeting is about your "level of participation" and "demeanor" is vague in any way. That sounds pretty damn clear and specific to me, and you refusing to meet without further information basically shows that you are unwilling to participate and that you have a hostile demeanor. You NEED to go to this meeting.
Look, in the professional world these kinds of meetings are very common and they often come with ZERO warning or context ahead of time. I would never go to a performance review meeting expecting to have received a detailed list of what my review said ahead of time. Why? Because it's incredibly easy to take something written about performance and behavior incorrectly without the context you need from a face-to-face conversation.
Let this go, and attend the meeting. In other words, be a professional.
posted by joan_holloway at 1:27 PM on November 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
Look, in the professional world these kinds of meetings are very common and they often come with ZERO warning or context ahead of time. I would never go to a performance review meeting expecting to have received a detailed list of what my review said ahead of time. Why? Because it's incredibly easy to take something written about performance and behavior incorrectly without the context you need from a face-to-face conversation.
Let this go, and attend the meeting. In other words, be a professional.
posted by joan_holloway at 1:27 PM on November 6, 2015 [19 favorites]
It sounds like you're trying to dodge a meeting about your practical performance (not that this is your intent, but this is what they may think is happening). That is kind of like refusing to take back a test. You may not think the practical is important, but it is a part of your program, they have to evaluate you on it (and really practicals aren't just to help you by doing, they're to help them evaluate you and where you need help/they need to strengthen their training).
They may be hesitant to put in writing something that they want to have the option of flexing up (in short, you may have failed the practical, but considering your history they want to give you the option of salvaging a pass, this may be an unofficial policy).As many have noted above, they may also have FOIA concerns.
I suspect the weirdness about the original meeting with the advisor may be due to some cross-communication about who's job it is to tell you what went wrong and how to proceed (especially if LP is an adjunct professor, some departments have a specific protocol for that sort of thing, but they don't always communicate that to the temps or part-timers very well) and that this has confused the issue in your mind, and understandably! But the bottom line is the person evaluating your performance has identified issues, and you now need to be informed what those are and how to correct them.
Go to the meeting and take detailed notes: either there is an issue you need to work on, or you need to document the meeting if you feel you are headed for unfair disciplinary issues. I don't think they're planning on a disciplinary action, but an academic one (and hopefully an unofficial do these activities and now you pass one), hence the referral for counseling (specifically someone who deals with test anxiety). Plus, I don't think they'd have you meet with the LP alone for a disciplinary issue. But detailed notes are good just in case.
Depending on how you feel about the outcome, you follow-up with an email summary of the meeting with next steps or you escalate the issue.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:28 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
They may be hesitant to put in writing something that they want to have the option of flexing up (in short, you may have failed the practical, but considering your history they want to give you the option of salvaging a pass, this may be an unofficial policy).As many have noted above, they may also have FOIA concerns.
I suspect the weirdness about the original meeting with the advisor may be due to some cross-communication about who's job it is to tell you what went wrong and how to proceed (especially if LP is an adjunct professor, some departments have a specific protocol for that sort of thing, but they don't always communicate that to the temps or part-timers very well) and that this has confused the issue in your mind, and understandably! But the bottom line is the person evaluating your performance has identified issues, and you now need to be informed what those are and how to correct them.
Go to the meeting and take detailed notes: either there is an issue you need to work on, or you need to document the meeting if you feel you are headed for unfair disciplinary issues. I don't think they're planning on a disciplinary action, but an academic one (and hopefully an unofficial do these activities and now you pass one), hence the referral for counseling (specifically someone who deals with test anxiety). Plus, I don't think they'd have you meet with the LP alone for a disciplinary issue. But detailed notes are good just in case.
Depending on how you feel about the outcome, you follow-up with an email summary of the meeting with next steps or you escalate the issue.
posted by ghost phoneme at 1:28 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
The FOIA stuff doesn't make sense because the litany of complaints were already sent to the adviser in an email. The reason that I would be suspicious of being set up in your case is that they've already escalated this so far above your head without you even getting to address the concerns; involving your adviser and the department chair before they set up a meeting with you, and before you even know what the complaint is about, is very aggressive unless this is a really huge concern with your behavior.
I'm surprised people are seeing you as dragging your feet here. You did exactly as instructed: you met with your adviser to talk about the issue just like the LP asked, and the adviser is the one who passed the buck back to the LP. If it were me, I would want my adviser present at this meeting if only so that you would get a chance to explain myself in front of both parties, given that your adviser has already been involved by the LP. In a normal situation, though, I would have expected the LP to address this directly with you following the class, not forward complaints to your adviser first.
posted by dialetheia at 1:37 PM on November 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm surprised people are seeing you as dragging your feet here. You did exactly as instructed: you met with your adviser to talk about the issue just like the LP asked, and the adviser is the one who passed the buck back to the LP. If it were me, I would want my adviser present at this meeting if only so that you would get a chance to explain myself in front of both parties, given that your adviser has already been involved by the LP. In a normal situation, though, I would have expected the LP to address this directly with you following the class, not forward complaints to your adviser first.
posted by dialetheia at 1:37 PM on November 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
They ARE treating you with professional courtesy. Traditional workplace conflict resolution dictates that if you have a problem with someone, you address it according to the hierarchy: with your immediate supervisor, then your group supervisor, then the department/HR supervisor, then possibly higher. It is absolutely appropriate that they require you to discuss it with the LP first before taking it any further.
Also, if the Dept. Head is telling you to talk to the LP asap, he probably DOES know what the complaints are and it is SERIOUS enough that you shouldn't ignore this. These people ARE probably giving you some benefit of the doubt to work it out before it goes any further. Because going further up will require documentation, which can follow you forever.
posted by lizbunny at 2:01 PM on November 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
Also, if the Dept. Head is telling you to talk to the LP asap, he probably DOES know what the complaints are and it is SERIOUS enough that you shouldn't ignore this. These people ARE probably giving you some benefit of the doubt to work it out before it goes any further. Because going further up will require documentation, which can follow you forever.
posted by lizbunny at 2:01 PM on November 6, 2015 [9 favorites]
FOIA issues aside, there are some things in life that you can't rehearse and redraft in an e-mail. If the gist of the higher-ups' complaint is that the OP is not good at dealing with people, and they've been hit with a barrage of e-mailed requests from the OP for more information and refusals to meet, they've got a great trail of evidence that proves that the OP is not good at dealing with people.
An in-person meeting will resolve this, or at least start smoothing things over. Being asked to talk with someone about possible issues (and then doing so) is a basic life event, not a human rights violation.
posted by scruss at 2:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
An in-person meeting will resolve this, or at least start smoothing things over. Being asked to talk with someone about possible issues (and then doing so) is a basic life event, not a human rights violation.
posted by scruss at 2:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
Best answer: The OP isn't ignoring this - they're just trying to find a way of NOT having a meeting alone, with no witnesses as to what was said, with someone who has escalated a "litany" of serious complaints that remain undisclosed to the OP even after the OP met with their adviser.
I know there's two sides to every story, but in an employment situation the OP would, at least in the UK, have the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary meeting. Whether students have the right to be accompanied in these situations at your university, OP, I'm not sure, but I would suggest contacting your student union for advice about this. There must also be information about processes and procedures on your institution's website so I would start there.
(In an employment situation the OP also wouldn't be paying their employer thousands of dollars per year to work there, which is not to adopt a "customer is always right" take on this situation, but misrepresenting the reality of employment in favour of a "student is always entitled and wrong" take on the situation isn't fair either.)
posted by tel3path at 2:22 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
I know there's two sides to every story, but in an employment situation the OP would, at least in the UK, have the right to be accompanied at a disciplinary meeting. Whether students have the right to be accompanied in these situations at your university, OP, I'm not sure, but I would suggest contacting your student union for advice about this. There must also be information about processes and procedures on your institution's website so I would start there.
(In an employment situation the OP also wouldn't be paying their employer thousands of dollars per year to work there, which is not to adopt a "customer is always right" take on this situation, but misrepresenting the reality of employment in favour of a "student is always entitled and wrong" take on the situation isn't fair either.)
posted by tel3path at 2:22 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Sorry, OP, I see that you have written this:
I have called my office of student services to see if they could provide some sort of arbitration or a neutral observer of the meeting, but apparently they are not big on being in the office on Fridays.
These are university employees, yes? I would contact your students' union and keep trying until you get hold of someone. If your local union isn't around, you might be able to find someone at your national union who can help.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 PM on November 6, 2015
I have called my office of student services to see if they could provide some sort of arbitration or a neutral observer of the meeting, but apparently they are not big on being in the office on Fridays.
These are university employees, yes? I would contact your students' union and keep trying until you get hold of someone. If your local union isn't around, you might be able to find someone at your national union who can help.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 PM on November 6, 2015
Best answer: IMHO Frowner has the correct tack here, as well as others who are telling you to go to the meeting and to be polite and conciliatory. I understand that you're scared, and that it's an anxiety-inducing situation to be going into a meeting like this without knowing what it's about, but pre-emptively going into a sort of legalistic hunker is just going to lead to escalation. If it turns out you are actually being falsely accused of something, then you'll want to follow up differently, but I don't think it would really change how you should approach this initial meeting.
Depending on whether you can be sincere about it, you may even want to lead the meeting off by apologizing for coming off as defensive in your first e-mail, and saying something like, it was a little scary to meet when you didn't know what to expect, but you're of course committed to working with the faculty to resolve any problems.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:33 PM on November 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
Depending on whether you can be sincere about it, you may even want to lead the meeting off by apologizing for coming off as defensive in your first e-mail, and saying something like, it was a little scary to meet when you didn't know what to expect, but you're of course committed to working with the faculty to resolve any problems.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:33 PM on November 6, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm a professor and just the other day, I read a complaint a student made about me some years ago. Nothing happened to me, my head of department just told the complainant I was probably right in whatever I did.
Thinking about it today, I should have done what this professor is doing instead of what I actually did.
This student sent off a strong vibe in class that "this part of my program was less than useful" and that I as a professor was less than professional. My perception was that they were refusing the advice we (me + TAs) were giving, and that they were having a negative influence on some other students.
One day, in class, I told them that since they had several times not performed the very simple task I had assigned them, because they felt they knew better than me what to do, I would no longer give tutorials during office hours or even discuss with them in class. They could ask the TAs for any further guidance.
I was emotional and unprofessional in that moment, but part of it was that I was worried that a group of very young students were confused wether I knew what I was doing and wether I was in charge of the situation because of that one student's attitude.
I deeply regret my temper-flare in class. I don't believe in that type of teaching, and at the end of the day, I think that student had some unresolved issues not with me, but with the whole educational system. In a respectful 1:1 conversation, we might have found into those issues, and I might have helped them. For what it's worth, that has been my approach ever since, and in all similar cases there has been a positive outcome.
For that 1:1 conversation, I prefer not to include higher-ups or other colleagues, except maybe sometimes a TA, if I feel it is responsible. Not because I want to hide something, but because I don't want to escalate the situation. If my boss or the student councilor is asked to participate in something, it is no longer a respectful conversation, but "a case", which is journalized throughout the system, and which will in 99 out of 100 cases have negative consequences for the student.
Heck, even with excellent students whom I support in every aspect of their life, if there are administrative problems, all hell breaks loose. University administrations hate anything which can lead to legal issues, economical issues or just anything which can lead to interaction with outside authorities, media, sponsors or even parents.
Now, the OP has included a mess of people already, and if I were their professor, I'd go for the big meeting. Which would have extremely negative consequences for OP. I see the professor as a very tolerant and patient person.
posted by mumimor at 2:39 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Thinking about it today, I should have done what this professor is doing instead of what I actually did.
This student sent off a strong vibe in class that "this part of my program was less than useful" and that I as a professor was less than professional. My perception was that they were refusing the advice we (me + TAs) were giving, and that they were having a negative influence on some other students.
One day, in class, I told them that since they had several times not performed the very simple task I had assigned them, because they felt they knew better than me what to do, I would no longer give tutorials during office hours or even discuss with them in class. They could ask the TAs for any further guidance.
I was emotional and unprofessional in that moment, but part of it was that I was worried that a group of very young students were confused wether I knew what I was doing and wether I was in charge of the situation because of that one student's attitude.
I deeply regret my temper-flare in class. I don't believe in that type of teaching, and at the end of the day, I think that student had some unresolved issues not with me, but with the whole educational system. In a respectful 1:1 conversation, we might have found into those issues, and I might have helped them. For what it's worth, that has been my approach ever since, and in all similar cases there has been a positive outcome.
For that 1:1 conversation, I prefer not to include higher-ups or other colleagues, except maybe sometimes a TA, if I feel it is responsible. Not because I want to hide something, but because I don't want to escalate the situation. If my boss or the student councilor is asked to participate in something, it is no longer a respectful conversation, but "a case", which is journalized throughout the system, and which will in 99 out of 100 cases have negative consequences for the student.
Heck, even with excellent students whom I support in every aspect of their life, if there are administrative problems, all hell breaks loose. University administrations hate anything which can lead to legal issues, economical issues or just anything which can lead to interaction with outside authorities, media, sponsors or even parents.
Now, the OP has included a mess of people already, and if I were their professor, I'd go for the big meeting. Which would have extremely negative consequences for OP. I see the professor as a very tolerant and patient person.
posted by mumimor at 2:39 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
Response by poster: Thanks for your comments everyone. I've emailed the LP with some times next week to meet along with a request to have the counselor (or another appropriate third party) attend.
To clarify a few points that have been brought up:
- This is an undergraduate, but professional degree, program.
- I don't think this is a case of mistaken identity. My cohort is less than 100 people, and there aren't that many other men in the program.
- All three of the faculty involved (LP, advisor, chair) were included in the original email. It's a small department, so it would not be out of the question for the chair to be cc'd on disciplinary (?) matters. I assumed it was just SOP/CYA to include the chair when I saw the name.
- I can come off as rude without intending to, the lab is my least favorite part of the program, and I was a little bit sick that day. So I assumed the initial email was something like frowner was talking about with me coming off as a grumpy dick in my demeanor and the meeting with my advisor was to tell me to stop being that. I was not expecting that there would be a "litany," nor that I would not be told the contents of said litany. This is the part I found disrespectful and unprofessional, and why I was defensive in my second email about meeting with the LP.
- The "performance" part is the most confusing and concerning to me, actually. We work as teams in the lab and I was an active participant in mine. If there was a performance issue, it did not come up during the simulation or in the post-conference. Similarly, I've spoken to my classmates who I was working with, and they couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary. This is also why I brought up my grades/performance reviews, which include past labs of this nature. It felt like a routine day.
- The FOIA issue is probably moot, as my advisor specifically said she received an email with specific issues. I suppose I could file a FOIA or FERPA request to see it for myself, but that seems like beehive poking.
- I also work in a suit-and-tie environment, and my office literally at one point had a SOP for birthday parties. My professional experience is make me more worried about the disorganized approach of "meet with advisor -> nope, meet with counselor -> nope, the LP wants to meet now -> now it's an ASAP thing." I'm worried that no one actually has a clear plan for how this is supposed to proceed, which is a good way for everything to wrong.
- I have no plans to seek legal counsel on this.
- I don't even know if my school has a student union. We do have a student government, but I have no idea if this is something they would get involved with.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:00 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
To clarify a few points that have been brought up:
- This is an undergraduate, but professional degree, program.
- I don't think this is a case of mistaken identity. My cohort is less than 100 people, and there aren't that many other men in the program.
- All three of the faculty involved (LP, advisor, chair) were included in the original email. It's a small department, so it would not be out of the question for the chair to be cc'd on disciplinary (?) matters. I assumed it was just SOP/CYA to include the chair when I saw the name.
- I can come off as rude without intending to, the lab is my least favorite part of the program, and I was a little bit sick that day. So I assumed the initial email was something like frowner was talking about with me coming off as a grumpy dick in my demeanor and the meeting with my advisor was to tell me to stop being that. I was not expecting that there would be a "litany," nor that I would not be told the contents of said litany. This is the part I found disrespectful and unprofessional, and why I was defensive in my second email about meeting with the LP.
- The "performance" part is the most confusing and concerning to me, actually. We work as teams in the lab and I was an active participant in mine. If there was a performance issue, it did not come up during the simulation or in the post-conference. Similarly, I've spoken to my classmates who I was working with, and they couldn't think of anything out of the ordinary. This is also why I brought up my grades/performance reviews, which include past labs of this nature. It felt like a routine day.
- The FOIA issue is probably moot, as my advisor specifically said she received an email with specific issues. I suppose I could file a FOIA or FERPA request to see it for myself, but that seems like beehive poking.
- I also work in a suit-and-tie environment, and my office literally at one point had a SOP for birthday parties. My professional experience is make me more worried about the disorganized approach of "meet with advisor -> nope, meet with counselor -> nope, the LP wants to meet now -> now it's an ASAP thing." I'm worried that no one actually has a clear plan for how this is supposed to proceed, which is a good way for everything to wrong.
- I have no plans to seek legal counsel on this.
- I don't even know if my school has a student union. We do have a student government, but I have no idea if this is something they would get involved with.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:00 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
I do find it odd they can't just tell you what the problem is over email, but then again, it doesn't appear at any point you actually asked for the concerns to be provided to you in writing. It sounds like you were focused more of the idea of meeting in person and how objectionable you found it. This may be an overreaction on the lab professor's part, but your initial refusal to meet and looping in other colleagues may have made it a bigger deal and made the lab professor more irritated with you. I think it's very possible it started as something straight-forward and low-level, and you turned it into more than that.
It appears there is absolutely no cause for you to be failed or anything like that. Your best bet is to go to the meeting, apologize if anything you did was misinterpreted as being negative toward the professor and vow to not let it happen again. Arguing, being defensive and, honestly, acting the way you did after the initial request to meet is only going to make the professor have a bigger problem with you.
posted by AppleTurnover at 3:19 PM on November 6, 2015
It appears there is absolutely no cause for you to be failed or anything like that. Your best bet is to go to the meeting, apologize if anything you did was misinterpreted as being negative toward the professor and vow to not let it happen again. Arguing, being defensive and, honestly, acting the way you did after the initial request to meet is only going to make the professor have a bigger problem with you.
posted by AppleTurnover at 3:19 PM on November 6, 2015
I agree with Frowner, and with your instinct that this seems weird. I also agree that the whole thing is probably nothing. I can remember being wildly wrong about this sort of stuff when I was younger.
The safe play is to be cool and cooperate, with a view towards showing the LP that you take him / her seriously, have never meant any disrespect, and will be a model participant in the class.
However, I would save copies of all correspondence and memorialize all meetings until you know what this is about. It almost sounds from the pattern you describe that the LP is afraid of you. If that's the case, it could be helpful to document that you have not behaved in a threatening manner.
posted by grobstein at 3:29 PM on November 6, 2015
The safe play is to be cool and cooperate, with a view towards showing the LP that you take him / her seriously, have never meant any disrespect, and will be a model participant in the class.
However, I would save copies of all correspondence and memorialize all meetings until you know what this is about. It almost sounds from the pattern you describe that the LP is afraid of you. If that's the case, it could be helpful to document that you have not behaved in a threatening manner.
posted by grobstein at 3:29 PM on November 6, 2015
Upon re-read and seeing your follow-up, I may have misunderstood the involvement of the adviser and who brought her into the process. But I honestly think you need to just meet with this lab professor and be apologetic and nice and get it over with. This professor may be making it a big deal, but that doesn't mean anyone else will think it's one. Even if you were a totally disrespectful asshole, you could still apologize and promise to be better, and the matter would be over.
posted by AppleTurnover at 3:30 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by AppleTurnover at 3:30 PM on November 6, 2015 [3 favorites]
This may be an overreaction on the lab professor's part, but your initial refusal to meet and looping in other colleagues may have made it a bigger deal and made the lab professor more irritated with you.
Several posters seem to think that you are the one who contacted your advisor and the chair, escalating the situation. As I understand it, that's not the case. The advisor and chair were "looped in" from the very beginning. And, far from your "refusing" to meet with the LP initially, the LP did not even offer to meet with you, instead instructing you to meet with your advisor, which you did.
But others will have these same uncharitable responses to you, which is why it will probably be best for you to resolve this in as smooth and conciliatory a manner as possible.
posted by grobstein at 3:32 PM on November 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Several posters seem to think that you are the one who contacted your advisor and the chair, escalating the situation. As I understand it, that's not the case. The advisor and chair were "looped in" from the very beginning. And, far from your "refusing" to meet with the LP initially, the LP did not even offer to meet with you, instead instructing you to meet with your advisor, which you did.
But others will have these same uncharitable responses to you, which is why it will probably be best for you to resolve this in as smooth and conciliatory a manner as possible.
posted by grobstein at 3:32 PM on November 6, 2015 [6 favorites]
Is this a nursing program? (undergraduate, professional, mostly female, has simulation labs)
If it is, please keep in mind that you won't be able to take the NCLEX until your school sends the appropriate paperwork to the state board of nursing, and if you get bounced from one nursing program it's damned difficult to get into another. Like it or not, the department does have power over you. Go to the meeting, calmly and rationally accept their feedback, and then go home and throw rocks at their pictures.
posted by shiny blue object at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
If it is, please keep in mind that you won't be able to take the NCLEX until your school sends the appropriate paperwork to the state board of nursing, and if you get bounced from one nursing program it's damned difficult to get into another. Like it or not, the department does have power over you. Go to the meeting, calmly and rationally accept their feedback, and then go home and throw rocks at their pictures.
posted by shiny blue object at 3:34 PM on November 6, 2015 [7 favorites]
Response by poster: The advisor and chair were "looped in" from the very beginning. And, far from your "refusing" to meet with the LP initially, the LP did not even offer to meet with you, instead instructing you to meet with your advisor, which you did.
This is all correct. I did not refuse an initial meeting with the LP because no meeting was offered. I meet with my advisor as instructed.
Is this a nursing program?
Yes, with all the attendant "nurses eat their young" drama/tough love. One semester left after this one though, and this the first time I've ever had to meet with my advisor outside of one borked test.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:47 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is all correct. I did not refuse an initial meeting with the LP because no meeting was offered. I meet with my advisor as instructed.
Is this a nursing program?
Yes, with all the attendant "nurses eat their young" drama/tough love. One semester left after this one though, and this the first time I've ever had to meet with my advisor outside of one borked test.
posted by Panjandrum at 3:47 PM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
There's lots of great advice above. I understanding wanting to cover your bases and protect yourself, but as an educator, if I had a concern about a student's behavior that was significant enough to warrant requesting a meeting about it, I would try to couch the first meeting as a more informal conversation: keep it as non-threatening as possible, open the lines of communication, and try to facilitate a meeting of the minds. If that didn't work and I had serious concerns about that student's future ability to represent the profession, then it would escalate beyond my office.
Documenting things in emails is what happens when the person in authority is trying to cover their ass for a subsequent dismissal/disciplinary action/etc. I'd say the vagueness in the requests is actually a GOOD thing for you, although I can understand the anxiety this lack of detail is causing you.
N'ing going in with an open mind but taking notes to document.
posted by smirkette at 4:02 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Documenting things in emails is what happens when the person in authority is trying to cover their ass for a subsequent dismissal/disciplinary action/etc. I'd say the vagueness in the requests is actually a GOOD thing for you, although I can understand the anxiety this lack of detail is causing you.
N'ing going in with an open mind but taking notes to document.
posted by smirkette at 4:02 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
From the perspective of a former TA, don't feel defensive unless you have done something wrong. Every time there was a problem with a student, it was preferable to speak one-on-one. I do think that sending you to an advisor is odd, but it could just be the lab instructor feeling like something was going on that they weren't qualified to handle.
Ok, and here's why you shouldn't be feeling defensive right now: as an instructor, we were on the lookout for problems. For good reason -- catching problems with students before they become PROBLEMS can be really valuable. Talking to a couple students who turned in obviously copied homework can prevent them from cheating and help a student who is having trouble before they fail. Talking to a student who seems upset or disengaged often reveals deeper problems that are getting in the way of their education. And there are also times signs of trouble could be misinterpreted -- wandering eyes during an exam can be cheating, or innocuous. But preventing cheating is important enough to also make the innocuous eye wanderer annoyed at being told to keep their eyes to themselves.
So please, even if you are given a litany of complaints that make you feel defensive, take a deep breath and try to approach it from a non-defensive point of view. Understand that things could have been misinterpreted, or maybe there really is a problem that you need to address, or maybe it's a combination. But the only way to a solution here is get off the defensive hill - it's not the one you want to die on.
posted by DoubleLune at 4:57 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ok, and here's why you shouldn't be feeling defensive right now: as an instructor, we were on the lookout for problems. For good reason -- catching problems with students before they become PROBLEMS can be really valuable. Talking to a couple students who turned in obviously copied homework can prevent them from cheating and help a student who is having trouble before they fail. Talking to a student who seems upset or disengaged often reveals deeper problems that are getting in the way of their education. And there are also times signs of trouble could be misinterpreted -- wandering eyes during an exam can be cheating, or innocuous. But preventing cheating is important enough to also make the innocuous eye wanderer annoyed at being told to keep their eyes to themselves.
So please, even if you are given a litany of complaints that make you feel defensive, take a deep breath and try to approach it from a non-defensive point of view. Understand that things could have been misinterpreted, or maybe there really is a problem that you need to address, or maybe it's a combination. But the only way to a solution here is get off the defensive hill - it's not the one you want to die on.
posted by DoubleLune at 4:57 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Dude, you've described your labwork as pointless, implied you're too good to be hassled because of your high marks, and when asked to have a simple conversation with your professor your response is to literally exhaust every option that isn't having a conversation with them. Like those right there are what I would describe as "demeanor and participation" problems.
It's kind of telling that the answers you've marked best aren't from people who've been on the other side of the situation and can offer insight into what's happening, but from the people who are giving you any out whatsoever to avoid contemplating that there's anything wrong with YOU.
I can tell you from experience that when you sleep through a wake-up call, people aren't going to keep trying to help you. This probably sounds great right now, but it's going to cost you eventually.
posted by danny the boy at 5:08 PM on November 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
It's kind of telling that the answers you've marked best aren't from people who've been on the other side of the situation and can offer insight into what's happening, but from the people who are giving you any out whatsoever to avoid contemplating that there's anything wrong with YOU.
I can tell you from experience that when you sleep through a wake-up call, people aren't going to keep trying to help you. This probably sounds great right now, but it's going to cost you eventually.
posted by danny the boy at 5:08 PM on November 6, 2015 [42 favorites]
I wonder if one of the disconnects here is that the staff involved don’t realize that you genuinely have no idea what you did wrong. To me, your defensiveness and anxiety make perfect sense: you were going about your business as usual and thought all was well, when all of a sudden you learn that:
1. your LP has “a litany” of complaints about you
2. of such gravity that she felt the need to immediately involve your advisor and the department chair
3. of such urgency that they must be addressed ASAP
4. of such egregiousness that you were advised to seek mental health care
5. yet nobody will tell you what they are.
What a nightmare. I would be freaking out, too. However, if your LP believes you already know what she’s referring to, she might think you’re just being hostile when you ask her to spell it out (especially if she already sees you as “difficult” or uncooperative). If she thinks you’re an antagonistic person and therefore engages with you as such, you prove her right by responding in kind. I doubt it’s any more malicious on her part than it is on yours - it’s more likely an issue of discordant communication styles.
Again, I think your reaction is totally understandable, but you’re going to need to be the one to course-correct back to civility. Maybe ahead of the meeting, send an email saying something like “I apologize for my strong reaction. I was alarmed to learn that I had unknowingly caused offense, especially as I enter a profession with such an emphasis on strong interpersonal skills. I would like to take this opportunity to request specific feedback on my performance and demeanor so that I can address any potential issues before entering the workforce.” Or something like that - you can probably word it more elegantly.
posted by granted at 5:23 PM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
1. your LP has “a litany” of complaints about you
2. of such gravity that she felt the need to immediately involve your advisor and the department chair
3. of such urgency that they must be addressed ASAP
4. of such egregiousness that you were advised to seek mental health care
5. yet nobody will tell you what they are.
What a nightmare. I would be freaking out, too. However, if your LP believes you already know what she’s referring to, she might think you’re just being hostile when you ask her to spell it out (especially if she already sees you as “difficult” or uncooperative). If she thinks you’re an antagonistic person and therefore engages with you as such, you prove her right by responding in kind. I doubt it’s any more malicious on her part than it is on yours - it’s more likely an issue of discordant communication styles.
Again, I think your reaction is totally understandable, but you’re going to need to be the one to course-correct back to civility. Maybe ahead of the meeting, send an email saying something like “I apologize for my strong reaction. I was alarmed to learn that I had unknowingly caused offense, especially as I enter a profession with such an emphasis on strong interpersonal skills. I would like to take this opportunity to request specific feedback on my performance and demeanor so that I can address any potential issues before entering the workforce.” Or something like that - you can probably word it more elegantly.
posted by granted at 5:23 PM on November 6, 2015 [17 favorites]
You need to have already sent an email setting up this meeting. Stop reading the thread.
Maybe you should start reading the thread, because the OP already did this.
I feel for you-- I know exactly what it feels like when it seems like the people in charge are irresponsible, opinionated, and shooting from the hip. I would be pissed but play nice and meek in the meeting, explain that I had been sick, and apologize for any unintended offense. If you want to point to your active role in the labs, that couldn't hurt.
I agree that these people are being highly unprofessional, in that they're disorganized and not doing their jobs correctly. This is not even the correct way to coach or discipline a student, if that is in fact what they're trying to do.
posted by easter queen at 6:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
Maybe you should start reading the thread, because the OP already did this.
I feel for you-- I know exactly what it feels like when it seems like the people in charge are irresponsible, opinionated, and shooting from the hip. I would be pissed but play nice and meek in the meeting, explain that I had been sick, and apologize for any unintended offense. If you want to point to your active role in the labs, that couldn't hurt.
I agree that these people are being highly unprofessional, in that they're disorganized and not doing their jobs correctly. This is not even the correct way to coach or discipline a student, if that is in fact what they're trying to do.
posted by easter queen at 6:20 PM on November 6, 2015 [4 favorites]
To clarify, I speak from experience in "professional" programs like this where people are often very arrogant and also have a lot of power and act like a numbnuts about it. I find the reactions of people in this thread fairly inexplicable, because it's not like no one has ever had a pointless lab before, or had to deal with a jackass boss. Nursing/medical school/etc. is full of shit like that. But yes, being courteous and cooperative is probably the best way to show your belly and try to resolve the situation, here.
posted by easter queen at 6:24 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by easter queen at 6:24 PM on November 6, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: I suspect few if any of the people answering have been to or worked in nursing schools. Nursing school is a nightmare of vague, prejudiced behavioral policing but so are many if not most nursing settings. Bitching about pointless, time-sucking mandatory training activities where the organizers can hear you is never rewarded as honest, clear-thinking courage in nursing; it will get you fired and blacklisted if you have vindictive managers, and they can lean on ill-defined benchmarks like "professional demeanor" and "communications skills".
I would go to the meeting expecting to be forced to " apologize for this misunderstanding" and to liberally salve the instructor's wounded ego. If you want to complete your program with a decent portfolio and recs, I think you're going to have to play along. As a rule, because nursing school faculty work closely with nursing staff at all the nearby big employers, being right is a lot less important to your career than being considered "professional" ("nice", and "easy to work with" - and it's not your peers' opinions that matter there, but your instructors'.)
posted by gingerest at 6:51 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
I would go to the meeting expecting to be forced to " apologize for this misunderstanding" and to liberally salve the instructor's wounded ego. If you want to complete your program with a decent portfolio and recs, I think you're going to have to play along. As a rule, because nursing school faculty work closely with nursing staff at all the nearby big employers, being right is a lot less important to your career than being considered "professional" ("nice", and "easy to work with" - and it's not your peers' opinions that matter there, but your instructors'.)
posted by gingerest at 6:51 PM on November 6, 2015 [13 favorites]
I can come off as rude without intending to...
I suspect this is it right there, and that the rest of the "litany" is mainly the professor's effort to bolster an overall impression that you're not playing nice enough for the profession you are going into. It's a little strange that it's coming up explicitly so late in your program and this professor's perceptions may be calibrated a little differently from other people's. But if there is a perceived problem it is in your best interests to iron it out now.
posted by BibiRose at 5:41 AM on November 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I suspect this is it right there, and that the rest of the "litany" is mainly the professor's effort to bolster an overall impression that you're not playing nice enough for the profession you are going into. It's a little strange that it's coming up explicitly so late in your program and this professor's perceptions may be calibrated a little differently from other people's. But if there is a perceived problem it is in your best interests to iron it out now.
posted by BibiRose at 5:41 AM on November 7, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm going to give you the most sympathetic possible construction of what the LP has in mind. Ridiculously sympathetic. Bear with me.
They saw you as surly. Maybe they noticed a few things that particularly got under their skin. Maybe these things got under their skin so much because they were reminded of themselves at an earlier age. Maybe they got you confused with them, look at you, and think, wow, I see exactly what is wrong with Panjandrum. I am the one who can give Panjandrum the advice and wisdom to fix their lives. And then they wrote an email to your advisor that was a bit more detailed and passionate than necessary (probably because they had their personal feelings and memories piqued and weren't able to sort out the difference).
I think you and Easterqueen and others with experience with nursing school administrations will think this is incredibly unlikely and unrealistic. I think they are right. I think you should nevertheless proceed, in your interactions with LP and the school, as though this is the case.
When you meet them, go into the meeting humbly ready to receive and accept their wisdom and advice. As though their request to meet with you made you realize there was something wrong that you hadn't even been able to pinpoint, and now you are finally going to get some wisdom to help you sort it out. Act as though on some level you realize that LP is a great and wise person who can really help you.
I think this approach has a lot of upsides:
- People like to be liked. If LP feels you like and admire them, they will be more sympathetic to you.
- People like to feel like they helped and made a difference to someone. Sometimes it can be especially ego flattering to feel like they got through to someone who was difficult to reach, who seemed so much on the wrong path.
- If LP feels like they 'got through' to you, like you took on what you said and are sincerely trying to act on it, they will turn from looking for your failures to looking for your successes. Because your success is evidence of their influence and wisdom. You could continue to do exactly as you are doing, and instead of focusing on all the times you 'fail,' LP will look to and seize on and celebrate the times you 'succeed' at being gracious or smile-y or whatever they have in mind. They may become a champion for you instead of a detractor, because now your success has implications for their self-image/ego. They will *want* to sign that piece of paper that lets you get licensed.
- It gives you cover to take really good detailed notes at the meeting. Because you're not documenting to cover your ass and fight them, you're just so dedicated to hearing, remembering, applying what they have to say to you. You can say that you are really nervous about this meeting and you know that means that sometimes you don't remember things as well, but you really want to remember and be able to thoughtfully consider what they are offering you. You can take notes and check with LP as you go -' Is that what you meant? I want to make sure I have it right'.
- The LP probably would prefer the feel-good feedback from you about what a difference LP made in a struggling young person's life over the extra work of actually going forward with any bureaucratic disciplinary processes. It's only human nature.
Then, after the meeting, I think this is what you should do:
- Not the next day but the day after that, email LP. Thank this Important, Busy, and August individual for making the time to meet *personally*, one-on-one with a struggling undergraduate. Tell them you've been thinking a lot about what they said in the meeting. Recap some of your most pertinent notes in writing. The tone here is NOT 'I am getting a paper trail of the content of our conversation.' It is 'I am paying very close attention and valuing every word you said. I want to show you how much I care by this time I am taking to write it all out.' End with at least one point that LP made that you see a way to work on right away, and tell them how you are implementing their advice. Bonus points if this is sincere. We all have something about us with room for improvement. Definitely tell them you are following up and meeting with the school counselor. If you *can* find something valuable in LP's advice, that's actually great for you. Maybe even ask them if there is some way you can follow up with them in a few weeks, a month, two months, to check in about what you are working on, how you are doing, and get their feedback and advice. The idea is to have LP feeling on the SAME team with you, like they are your coach and you want to make them proud, not like they are the umpire and it's their job to judge you and rule fairly against you.
- Take some time to think about it and get emotional equilibrium. Go talk it through with a counselor. One who has confidentiality obligations towards you! (I don't know what the status of school counselors is on this). Consider what helpful things you can actually get from this. Consider what are the possible implications of this. Use them to hash out scenarios and maybe role play conversations with LP and/or your advisor. Consider ALL the possibilities, including that you were not behaving in an adaptive way for the expectations in your environment and in the scheme of things LP and advisor actually have helped you by keeping this relatively informal and giving you the chance to turn it around now. But do the venting you need to do and the processing you need to do with this counselor, rather than with your advisor (potentially counter productive), a lawyer (ridiculously expensive and not their area of expertise), or with anybody in any way connected to your school or who might blab (potentially including a school counselor if their privacy obligations are more towards the school than towards you).
-THEN is the time to take all the emails (printed), your notes about your meeting with your advisor, and your notes about your meeting with LP, to a lawyer who is experienced in dealing with academic institutions. Preferably one who is experienced in dealing with nursing schools or even your nursing school. You might search google scholar cases to see if there were any similar cases where your school was named/implicated/mentioned, and who were the lawyers involved. Or, and especially if your jurisdiction has this information easily accessible online, search the court index for any cases in which your school was a party and who were the lawyers involved (bear in mind they might be a party to a real estate case or something totally unrelated, but you might get lucky). I think that most good lawyers could give you general help and direction with this, but a lawyer who is really familiar with the landscape and players could really give you pointed advice about what course of action is most likely to get you graduated, licensed, and well positioned to find work in the field, with the least amount of legal and financial cost to you. (IF after processing you have a feeling there's a real danger to your future career, then I absolutely agree with Little Dawn that it is worth the trouble *and* expense of getting good legal advice. It's a big hassle, do it anyway).
At that point you should be:
- Well placed, in terms of information and emotions, to make tactical decisions.
and
- Well placed, in terms of your relationships with your advisor and LP to make the broadest possible range of decisions -- i.e. you haven't burned any bridges or closed off any 'nice-guy' options.
If you have to shove every single iota of emotional response, pride, ego, etc., into a compartment somewhere to do this (a compartment you should definitely open up with a counselor later), I think it is worth it. This is your future.
Good luck.
posted by Salamandrous at 7:14 AM on November 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
They saw you as surly. Maybe they noticed a few things that particularly got under their skin. Maybe these things got under their skin so much because they were reminded of themselves at an earlier age. Maybe they got you confused with them, look at you, and think, wow, I see exactly what is wrong with Panjandrum. I am the one who can give Panjandrum the advice and wisdom to fix their lives. And then they wrote an email to your advisor that was a bit more detailed and passionate than necessary (probably because they had their personal feelings and memories piqued and weren't able to sort out the difference).
I think you and Easterqueen and others with experience with nursing school administrations will think this is incredibly unlikely and unrealistic. I think they are right. I think you should nevertheless proceed, in your interactions with LP and the school, as though this is the case.
When you meet them, go into the meeting humbly ready to receive and accept their wisdom and advice. As though their request to meet with you made you realize there was something wrong that you hadn't even been able to pinpoint, and now you are finally going to get some wisdom to help you sort it out. Act as though on some level you realize that LP is a great and wise person who can really help you.
I think this approach has a lot of upsides:
- People like to be liked. If LP feels you like and admire them, they will be more sympathetic to you.
- People like to feel like they helped and made a difference to someone. Sometimes it can be especially ego flattering to feel like they got through to someone who was difficult to reach, who seemed so much on the wrong path.
- If LP feels like they 'got through' to you, like you took on what you said and are sincerely trying to act on it, they will turn from looking for your failures to looking for your successes. Because your success is evidence of their influence and wisdom. You could continue to do exactly as you are doing, and instead of focusing on all the times you 'fail,' LP will look to and seize on and celebrate the times you 'succeed' at being gracious or smile-y or whatever they have in mind. They may become a champion for you instead of a detractor, because now your success has implications for their self-image/ego. They will *want* to sign that piece of paper that lets you get licensed.
- It gives you cover to take really good detailed notes at the meeting. Because you're not documenting to cover your ass and fight them, you're just so dedicated to hearing, remembering, applying what they have to say to you. You can say that you are really nervous about this meeting and you know that means that sometimes you don't remember things as well, but you really want to remember and be able to thoughtfully consider what they are offering you. You can take notes and check with LP as you go -' Is that what you meant? I want to make sure I have it right'.
- The LP probably would prefer the feel-good feedback from you about what a difference LP made in a struggling young person's life over the extra work of actually going forward with any bureaucratic disciplinary processes. It's only human nature.
Then, after the meeting, I think this is what you should do:
- Not the next day but the day after that, email LP. Thank this Important, Busy, and August individual for making the time to meet *personally*, one-on-one with a struggling undergraduate. Tell them you've been thinking a lot about what they said in the meeting. Recap some of your most pertinent notes in writing. The tone here is NOT 'I am getting a paper trail of the content of our conversation.' It is 'I am paying very close attention and valuing every word you said. I want to show you how much I care by this time I am taking to write it all out.' End with at least one point that LP made that you see a way to work on right away, and tell them how you are implementing their advice. Bonus points if this is sincere. We all have something about us with room for improvement. Definitely tell them you are following up and meeting with the school counselor. If you *can* find something valuable in LP's advice, that's actually great for you. Maybe even ask them if there is some way you can follow up with them in a few weeks, a month, two months, to check in about what you are working on, how you are doing, and get their feedback and advice. The idea is to have LP feeling on the SAME team with you, like they are your coach and you want to make them proud, not like they are the umpire and it's their job to judge you and rule fairly against you.
- Take some time to think about it and get emotional equilibrium. Go talk it through with a counselor. One who has confidentiality obligations towards you! (I don't know what the status of school counselors is on this). Consider what helpful things you can actually get from this. Consider what are the possible implications of this. Use them to hash out scenarios and maybe role play conversations with LP and/or your advisor. Consider ALL the possibilities, including that you were not behaving in an adaptive way for the expectations in your environment and in the scheme of things LP and advisor actually have helped you by keeping this relatively informal and giving you the chance to turn it around now. But do the venting you need to do and the processing you need to do with this counselor, rather than with your advisor (potentially counter productive), a lawyer (ridiculously expensive and not their area of expertise), or with anybody in any way connected to your school or who might blab (potentially including a school counselor if their privacy obligations are more towards the school than towards you).
-THEN is the time to take all the emails (printed), your notes about your meeting with your advisor, and your notes about your meeting with LP, to a lawyer who is experienced in dealing with academic institutions. Preferably one who is experienced in dealing with nursing schools or even your nursing school. You might search google scholar cases to see if there were any similar cases where your school was named/implicated/mentioned, and who were the lawyers involved. Or, and especially if your jurisdiction has this information easily accessible online, search the court index for any cases in which your school was a party and who were the lawyers involved (bear in mind they might be a party to a real estate case or something totally unrelated, but you might get lucky). I think that most good lawyers could give you general help and direction with this, but a lawyer who is really familiar with the landscape and players could really give you pointed advice about what course of action is most likely to get you graduated, licensed, and well positioned to find work in the field, with the least amount of legal and financial cost to you. (IF after processing you have a feeling there's a real danger to your future career, then I absolutely agree with Little Dawn that it is worth the trouble *and* expense of getting good legal advice. It's a big hassle, do it anyway).
At that point you should be:
- Well placed, in terms of information and emotions, to make tactical decisions.
and
- Well placed, in terms of your relationships with your advisor and LP to make the broadest possible range of decisions -- i.e. you haven't burned any bridges or closed off any 'nice-guy' options.
If you have to shove every single iota of emotional response, pride, ego, etc., into a compartment somewhere to do this (a compartment you should definitely open up with a counselor later), I think it is worth it. This is your future.
Good luck.
posted by Salamandrous at 7:14 AM on November 7, 2015 [8 favorites]
+1 to Salamandrous' advice.
Here are the things to avoid, in my experience working with a situation where I have had to discipline employees.
- avoid interrupting the speaker, whether it's your LP or advisor.
- avoid placing emphasis on your behaviors as a "cover my ass" thing. You can reframed almost any behavior intended that way to instead be about making sure you truly hear and understand the complaint being leveled at you, and reframing it that way makes it appear you are approachable and listen to critical feedback - two things your future employers want to hear when they call around asking about you.
- avoid debating individual points, and instead focus on over arching themes. Don't debate those either, but make sure you understand them if there are any.
- REALLY be prepared to listen. They may be holding a piece of feedback for you that could make or break your ability to do this kind of work.
Gauge your course of action afterward. If you go away from it feeling weirder vibes than when you started, after being conscious to be present and listen to them as people, then legal help is the best route to help advise you on moving forward.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 1:00 PM on November 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
Here are the things to avoid, in my experience working with a situation where I have had to discipline employees.
- avoid interrupting the speaker, whether it's your LP or advisor.
- avoid placing emphasis on your behaviors as a "cover my ass" thing. You can reframed almost any behavior intended that way to instead be about making sure you truly hear and understand the complaint being leveled at you, and reframing it that way makes it appear you are approachable and listen to critical feedback - two things your future employers want to hear when they call around asking about you.
- avoid debating individual points, and instead focus on over arching themes. Don't debate those either, but make sure you understand them if there are any.
- REALLY be prepared to listen. They may be holding a piece of feedback for you that could make or break your ability to do this kind of work.
Gauge your course of action afterward. If you go away from it feeling weirder vibes than when you started, after being conscious to be present and listen to them as people, then legal help is the best route to help advise you on moving forward.
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 1:00 PM on November 7, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've emailed the LP with some times next week to meet along with a request to have the counselor (or another appropriate third party) attend.
Be warned that this may be interpreted by the LP as a hostile and escalatory move, because it tells her you think you two won't be able to talk it out on your own and require a witness/moderator. It insinuates you have a low opinion of her, and reinforces her perception of your arrogance and lack of emotional intelligence.
That is, unless you have and/or will intend on presenting this as "mea culpa, I don't understand what went wrong here, and would like the counsellor there to help ME understand better".
If you didn't present it that way, it is highly advisable to send a follow-up email along the lines of same, which will help smooth things over in the interim prior to your meeting.
posted by lizbunny at 4:02 PM on November 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Be warned that this may be interpreted by the LP as a hostile and escalatory move, because it tells her you think you two won't be able to talk it out on your own and require a witness/moderator. It insinuates you have a low opinion of her, and reinforces her perception of your arrogance and lack of emotional intelligence.
That is, unless you have and/or will intend on presenting this as "mea culpa, I don't understand what went wrong here, and would like the counsellor there to help ME understand better".
If you didn't present it that way, it is highly advisable to send a follow-up email along the lines of same, which will help smooth things over in the interim prior to your meeting.
posted by lizbunny at 4:02 PM on November 7, 2015 [2 favorites]
Response by poster: Resolution (because who likes cliff hangers?):
I meet with the LP and had a 5 minute conversation, which is apparently all she ever wanted, but she is terrible at email. Without getting into technical detail, this entire episode stemmed from a (new) lab instructor who thought my lab group had performed an action incorrectly, when, in fact, we were doing exactly what we had been taught to do. This was discussed in lab and I brought up the discrepancy between what we had been taught and what we were now being told, and asked a follow-up question about what our actual legal limitations were. This was seen as unduly rude. The "litany" was actually just a write up of what happened (i.e., my group performed as we had been taught); none of the others in my lab group received similar feedback.
The LP an discussed this, and she subsequently sent an email to the chair and my advisor saying we had come to an "amicable understanding," that she found my "perspective as being an acceptable point of view," and that the situation was over. Assuming I bring a smile to the next sim lab and don't stab anyone (or smile while stabbing someone), the whole matter will be officially forgotten.
The Chair only got involved because she -- like some in this post -- did not realize I had already met with my advisor.
Neither the LP nor myself could figure out why my advisor didn't just tell me any of this when we met.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
I meet with the LP and had a 5 minute conversation, which is apparently all she ever wanted, but she is terrible at email. Without getting into technical detail, this entire episode stemmed from a (new) lab instructor who thought my lab group had performed an action incorrectly, when, in fact, we were doing exactly what we had been taught to do. This was discussed in lab and I brought up the discrepancy between what we had been taught and what we were now being told, and asked a follow-up question about what our actual legal limitations were. This was seen as unduly rude. The "litany" was actually just a write up of what happened (i.e., my group performed as we had been taught); none of the others in my lab group received similar feedback.
The LP an discussed this, and she subsequently sent an email to the chair and my advisor saying we had come to an "amicable understanding," that she found my "perspective as being an acceptable point of view," and that the situation was over. Assuming I bring a smile to the next sim lab and don't stab anyone (or smile while stabbing someone), the whole matter will be officially forgotten.
The Chair only got involved because she -- like some in this post -- did not realize I had already met with my advisor.
Neither the LP nor myself could figure out why my advisor didn't just tell me any of this when we met.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:30 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
It sounds like maybe your advisor read the whole email as a litany of your sins, instead of just the single remark, and decided she couldn't deal with it. (I am going to charitably assume she is as snowed down by email and overworked as every other faculty member,and she just read too quickly. Or maybe the LP 's terribleness at email is at fault.)
Regardless, thanks for the update and I hope you are more relieved than scarred by this whole debacle.
posted by gingerest at 12:48 PM on November 12, 2015
Regardless, thanks for the update and I hope you are more relieved than scarred by this whole debacle.
posted by gingerest at 12:48 PM on November 12, 2015
I also wonder whether your advisor was worried about the potential to make the situation worse by inadvertently mis-stating or misrepresenting the issue to you, particularly if the TA or LP initially put it in a kind of long-winded way in the e-mail (thus reading as a "litany" of complaints even though it was really pretty simple). Regardless, though, it sounds like a pretty good outcome and I second gingerest's wishes.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2015
posted by en forme de poire at 2:41 PM on November 12, 2015
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It sounds like you want to have a written agenda in hand before the meeting, or have an ombudsman present, in order to protect yourself. However, in my experience with situations like these, an unwillingness to put concerns in writing (or email) is usually for the protection of both parties -- if I had concerns about the behavior of a student but wanted to work through it with a simple conversation (and believed I could resolve it informally), I would probably avoid writing them down as those records could possibly be used against them in the future.
Unless you are fearful for your personal safety, I don't think you have anything to gain from avoiding this meeting. Even if it is an uncomfortable one where you feel that unfair allegations are being leveled against you, it will be only to your benefit to find out what these allegations are, rather than a) avoiding gaining the knowledge and b) antagonizing this person who has (as far as I can tell) generously reached out to you.
Finally, frustrating as it may be, academia is a very hierarchical place. It really does not matter if your behavior has been "right" or "wrong," and it definitely does not matter if your scores are above average (or even the best!) in the class. If your superior thinks you are being difficult -- and regardless of the events leading up to this, refusing to meet face to face is difficult -- you are going to have a bad time. Academia is not a meritocracy; it's political and even students need to play the game.
posted by telegraph at 11:35 AM on November 6, 2015 [75 favorites]