Getting close to the AllLivesMatter bs
November 1, 2015 6:48 PM Subscribe
Close friend is making comments that are offensive to me, for political and cultural reasons, not personal. How should I mentally handle this?
This is probably one of my closest friends at the moment. We have been friends for years and hang out at least once or twice a week. We've come to each other in times of need, and I think she really is a good person! But...lately she's been making comments like "I don't think cultural appropriation is a thing" or "yes, that cop should be fired, but I watched the 20 min video and that girl was being an entitled bitch"(regarding the SC high school cop who flipped a student out of her chair). She basically doesn't believe the latter incident is a race thing because she'd seen a white girl at her high school get pushed over by a cop or something. Ugh.
This has been really unsettling for me, and both times, she had brought up the topic specifically to make her point, which I've adamantly argued against. I find myself not wanting to hang out with her as much now because these comments are so offensive to me and I don't know how to reconcile them with the fun and kind person I know(I'm Asian, she's White, if it matters).
We were both part of the liberal/hippie/anarchist crowd in college(we're in our late 20s now). Although we're both "young professionals" now, I was pretty sure we were both still progressives who stayed informed and would not fall into the AllLivesMatter bs, but now I'm not so sure. I keep telling myself that she'll hopefully change her mind one day and maybe the arguments between us made her think more about it. I don't know. How should I mentally frame this now so I can still maintain this friendship?
This is probably one of my closest friends at the moment. We have been friends for years and hang out at least once or twice a week. We've come to each other in times of need, and I think she really is a good person! But...lately she's been making comments like "I don't think cultural appropriation is a thing" or "yes, that cop should be fired, but I watched the 20 min video and that girl was being an entitled bitch"(regarding the SC high school cop who flipped a student out of her chair). She basically doesn't believe the latter incident is a race thing because she'd seen a white girl at her high school get pushed over by a cop or something. Ugh.
This has been really unsettling for me, and both times, she had brought up the topic specifically to make her point, which I've adamantly argued against. I find myself not wanting to hang out with her as much now because these comments are so offensive to me and I don't know how to reconcile them with the fun and kind person I know(I'm Asian, she's White, if it matters).
We were both part of the liberal/hippie/anarchist crowd in college(we're in our late 20s now). Although we're both "young professionals" now, I was pretty sure we were both still progressives who stayed informed and would not fall into the AllLivesMatter bs, but now I'm not so sure. I keep telling myself that she'll hopefully change her mind one day and maybe the arguments between us made her think more about it. I don't know. How should I mentally frame this now so I can still maintain this friendship?
I keep telling myself that she'll hopefully change her mind one day and maybe the arguments between us made her think more about it. I don't know. How should I mentally frame this now so I can still maintain this friendship?
I was also part of the "liberal / hippie / anarchist" crowd in my 20s, and one thing that I came to understand as I got into my 30s (and came to see about myself) is just how much unquestioned, unconscious entitlement and privilege was an underpinning of these scenes. As I aged, some friends from that time reverted strongly to type as the pressures of career and familial expectations came more strongly to bear on them, and as they themselves became successful. A lot of people play at being radical, but aren't willing to do the hard, painful self-analysis that it takes in the end, or to accept the implications.
Which is to say, some people you just have to let go.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:02 PM on November 1, 2015 [31 favorites]
I was also part of the "liberal / hippie / anarchist" crowd in my 20s, and one thing that I came to understand as I got into my 30s (and came to see about myself) is just how much unquestioned, unconscious entitlement and privilege was an underpinning of these scenes. As I aged, some friends from that time reverted strongly to type as the pressures of career and familial expectations came more strongly to bear on them, and as they themselves became successful. A lot of people play at being radical, but aren't willing to do the hard, painful self-analysis that it takes in the end, or to accept the implications.
Which is to say, some people you just have to let go.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:02 PM on November 1, 2015 [31 favorites]
I have some friends with whom I just can't talk about some stuff. I have a friend who is very conservative politically while I'm kind of a live-wire leftie. She once made a comment about "that black lives matter bullshit" and I asked a few neutral questions to see if I understood her position and then I dropped it. We just don't talk much about race, politics, or religion. And actually one of the things I really like about this friend is that although we disagree about some things, she has a lot of qualities that I like and sometimes she will say something that makes me think differently. We once had a very interesting discussion about churches that I could not have had with any other friend. She is one of the only other intensely career oriented women I know and I really value her work ethic, her motivation, and her attitude about life. So we talk about that type of stuff instead.
It sort of depends on what this relationship is to you. If having intellectual discussions with this particular friend matters to you, enough that it's a cornerstone of your relationship, this is a problem. If you can avoid these topics, avoid them. I once had to say to my friend something like "well, I think we disagree, but that doesn't matter - a lot of people disagree about this! So how is work going?"
Friends do not have to be perfect fits. They're friends.
posted by sockermom at 7:18 PM on November 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
It sort of depends on what this relationship is to you. If having intellectual discussions with this particular friend matters to you, enough that it's a cornerstone of your relationship, this is a problem. If you can avoid these topics, avoid them. I once had to say to my friend something like "well, I think we disagree, but that doesn't matter - a lot of people disagree about this! So how is work going?"
Friends do not have to be perfect fits. They're friends.
posted by sockermom at 7:18 PM on November 1, 2015 [15 favorites]
I think you have to accept that everyone has ugly bits and you figure out for yourself which ugly bits you're OK with. It sounds like her ugly bits are borne of rank ignorance. Like ryanshepard pointed out, being progressive is no panacea for escaping racism and bigotry. There is a lot of unexamined privilege amongst White progressives and it sounds like your friend is one of them.
So, you figure out if you can deal with the ugly bits (likely through just not discussing these topics). If you aren't, then you have to decide whether the stress of trying to wake her up is worth the friendship.
Personally I have had lower and lower tolerance in my personal life for those who claim systemic racism is a matter of opinion or "just how you look at it", especially coming from White people. But that's me. Everyone has to figure out their own boundaries.
posted by Anonymous at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2015
So, you figure out if you can deal with the ugly bits (likely through just not discussing these topics). If you aren't, then you have to decide whether the stress of trying to wake her up is worth the friendship.
Personally I have had lower and lower tolerance in my personal life for those who claim systemic racism is a matter of opinion or "just how you look at it", especially coming from White people. But that's me. Everyone has to figure out their own boundaries.
posted by Anonymous at 7:20 PM on November 1, 2015
Best answer: I think a lot of these "just don't talk about it!" answers, while totally valid and well-meaning, are kind of assuming you're on the same footing power-wise in society (i.e., that you're also white) and that you get to ignore it because your friend's views don't apply to you. But if you're angry with your friend or a little worried about what your friend thinks of you because she's espousing these ideas and because she doesn't realize what they mean not just for some nebulous other but for you and the people that you love, you shouldn't feel bad about that. And you shouldn't feel bad about distancing yourself if that's what you need to do for your own comfort and mental health.
(I, for instance, would not be comfortable with anyone who said, "No one should be raped, but I watched the video and she really was dressed like a slut," and "it's not a gender thing because I saw a guy get harassed once." I would feel just a little bit creepingly unsafe around that person from then on, no matter how nice they seemed otherwise. So yeah, don't feel like a bad friend if you need to walk away from this one.)
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:31 PM on November 1, 2015 [65 favorites]
(I, for instance, would not be comfortable with anyone who said, "No one should be raped, but I watched the video and she really was dressed like a slut," and "it's not a gender thing because I saw a guy get harassed once." I would feel just a little bit creepingly unsafe around that person from then on, no matter how nice they seemed otherwise. So yeah, don't feel like a bad friend if you need to walk away from this one.)
posted by WidgetAlley at 7:31 PM on November 1, 2015 [65 favorites]
I have a friend who is way more leftist than me. I think some of her views on this sort of thing are wrong, prejudiced and potentially dangerous, as I suspect your friend probably thinks about you, just as much as you think about her. When we realize we're headed towards "your views are bad and wrong" territory we back up, find the common ground - there always is something you can agree on - "it's a terrible thing for kids to not feel physically safe in school" for instance - and change the subject.
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by fingersandtoes at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
In similar-ish situations, I've generally just drawn an explicit line to let people know that I don't agree with them and don't want to keep talking about it. Something like, "Please don't dismiss racism in front of me. I don't care what you think in your own head, but I don't want to hear another dismissive comment in my presence." Could something like that work?
posted by jaguar at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by jaguar at 7:40 PM on November 1, 2015 [7 favorites]
Why are you letting social media and mass media talking points into your personal relationships??
People repeat dumb shit they hear paid shills parrot. (Disclosure: I was once one of those paid shills - sorry everybody!) She's repeating dumb shit. Ignore it. Tomorrow we'll all be talking about the new Star Wars movie, or next airplane tragedy, the next major winter storm. We'll probably still be exposed to stuff about the Kardashians, and none of us will enjoy that.
Tell your friend to turn off the tv and Internet, and move on to other topics. Sometimes people say dumb shit they won't believe down the road. Let this dumb shit slide unless it becomes a pattern.
posted by jbenben at 7:45 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
People repeat dumb shit they hear paid shills parrot. (Disclosure: I was once one of those paid shills - sorry everybody!) She's repeating dumb shit. Ignore it. Tomorrow we'll all be talking about the new Star Wars movie, or next airplane tragedy, the next major winter storm. We'll probably still be exposed to stuff about the Kardashians, and none of us will enjoy that.
Tell your friend to turn off the tv and Internet, and move on to other topics. Sometimes people say dumb shit they won't believe down the road. Let this dumb shit slide unless it becomes a pattern.
posted by jbenben at 7:45 PM on November 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Hi. I'm a WOC with white friends who are far more conservative than I am. I just don't talk politics, race or reproductive justice with them because quite frankly banging my head against a wall would be more productive. I have other white friends with whom I can talk about those subjects without wanting to reach for either alcohol or a baseball bat, so that's whom I talk politics and such with.
This means that my friendships with the first group are never, ever going to be more than superficial, but I try hard to make them fun nevertheless. It's an unfortunate reality of being friends with White people (and some POC) that they're so soaked in unconscious privilege and entitlement that they're never going to be willing/able to do the hard work of recognising said privilege and entitlement. Most days I don't have the energy to educate them, and so I leave it be.
It's my unfortunate experience that the vast majority of White people are so clueless wrt things outside their own little bubbles that they couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. The best you can do is meet them at whatever superficial level doesn't make you want to throw things, and make better, actually progressive friends who get it.
posted by Tamanna at 7:58 PM on November 1, 2015 [36 favorites]
This means that my friendships with the first group are never, ever going to be more than superficial, but I try hard to make them fun nevertheless. It's an unfortunate reality of being friends with White people (and some POC) that they're so soaked in unconscious privilege and entitlement that they're never going to be willing/able to do the hard work of recognising said privilege and entitlement. Most days I don't have the energy to educate them, and so I leave it be.
It's my unfortunate experience that the vast majority of White people are so clueless wrt things outside their own little bubbles that they couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. The best you can do is meet them at whatever superficial level doesn't make you want to throw things, and make better, actually progressive friends who get it.
posted by Tamanna at 7:58 PM on November 1, 2015 [36 favorites]
If you want to stay friends, then you can either choose not to talk about it/ignore it, or address it with them but frame it in your head that they're still your friend, and you can have a respectful academic argument but ultimately agree to disagree at the end if necessary. You can even make that the explicit terms of the discussion (this is how I deal with my conservative-leaning political economist brother, and it works for us). Metafilter has taught me that people's wrongheaded feelpinions can be countered with persuasion and evidence, but you have to lay the groundwork, and it needs to be respectful. If you're going down that path, remember, it's a friendship, not a debate club, and there no prizes for winning an argument or 'being right'. No one has to 'win'.
But, if your friend says racist stuff at you or, for example, rejects your lived experience of racism, and that's over the line for you, it's OK to walk away. Friendship doesn't have to be a lifelong bond. People change.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:00 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
But, if your friend says racist stuff at you or, for example, rejects your lived experience of racism, and that's over the line for you, it's OK to walk away. Friendship doesn't have to be a lifelong bond. People change.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:00 PM on November 1, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't know how to reconcile them with the fun and kind person I know
People can be fun and kind and ignorant and racist (inadvertently or otherwise).
(I'm Asian, she's White, if it matters).
I think it does. Privilege is thinking that because something isn't a problem for you personally, it's not a problem.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [30 favorites]
People can be fun and kind and ignorant and racist (inadvertently or otherwise).
(I'm Asian, she's White, if it matters).
I think it does. Privilege is thinking that because something isn't a problem for you personally, it's not a problem.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:03 PM on November 1, 2015 [30 favorites]
Most of us enjoy feeling superior to some of our friends, but you don't have to be friends forever, so the big question is whether or not you can tolerate these specific differences of opinion (or awareness).
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:19 PM on November 1, 2015
posted by Joseph Gurl at 8:19 PM on November 1, 2015
I refuse to be friends with racists. And so when I find out that someone is racist, I drop them as a friend, and I tell them why. I'm white, and I consider it to be the responsible thing to do, to let other white people know that their views are abhorrent and that it's not only POC who think so. I have grieved the loss of friendships (and family relationships) with people I had to drop because they are racists. But I think it's important enough that I don't want to have anything to do with people who are making the world a worse place. I'm sure some of the people I've cut off think I'm sanctimonious or overreacting or whatever. But I think that when people are assholes, they deserve to be punished by losing the pleasure of my company.
And yes, I would refuse to be friends with someone who thinks that it isn't racism when a white cop with a history of racial bias viciously attacks a black girl over a non-criminal act at a school that has been the subject of numerous complaints for racially biased discipline. I mean, ffs, the group of white parents formed last year in Spring Valley to defeat black candidates for the local school board is literally called the Bipartisan White Citizens Committee. That's basically the definition of white supremacy in the modern world. So yeah, I'd drop this friend, and I'd tell her exactly why I was doing it.
posted by decathecting at 9:06 PM on November 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
And yes, I would refuse to be friends with someone who thinks that it isn't racism when a white cop with a history of racial bias viciously attacks a black girl over a non-criminal act at a school that has been the subject of numerous complaints for racially biased discipline. I mean, ffs, the group of white parents formed last year in Spring Valley to defeat black candidates for the local school board is literally called the Bipartisan White Citizens Committee. That's basically the definition of white supremacy in the modern world. So yeah, I'd drop this friend, and I'd tell her exactly why I was doing it.
posted by decathecting at 9:06 PM on November 1, 2015 [28 favorites]
You have two options: sweep her racism under the rug and silently carry on, or decide it's a deal-breaker and stop being friends. Your friend is vehemently arguing that systemic racism doesn't exist. That's not water cooler chat on the latest buzzworthy topic. That's not having a different opinion (yeesh). Believing in racism has nothing to do with being a "lefty" or "righty." It's not some let's-agree-to-disagree-it's-Thanksgiving-pass-the-potatoes. Your friend is racist.
If it were me, it would be BZZT game over thanks for playing, here's why I'm dropping you. and I do think you have a responsibility to speak up and explain very clearly. That's part of being non-racist.
posted by missmary6 at 9:19 PM on November 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
If it were me, it would be BZZT game over thanks for playing, here's why I'm dropping you. and I do think you have a responsibility to speak up and explain very clearly. That's part of being non-racist.
posted by missmary6 at 9:19 PM on November 1, 2015 [12 favorites]
It definately matters that she is white, you are Asian, because she can give a dissenting opinion while at the same time showing a little thoughtfulness about how you might be living thus differently. I bet if she had you would not be posting here.
For these situations, I like the cocounselling technique
"When you...
I feel...
I need...
So that..."
This is a good friend who you know cares about you being thoughtless about race issues that impact you more than her. "Calling in" (instead of calling out) is required, IMO.
I say take a risk on her and a tough conversation before cutting her loose. Your friendship may be enriched by a tough conversation. If not, if she prefers to make statements that are hurtful, and show disregard for the experience of people like you, well, you know where you stand.
posted by chapps at 9:22 PM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
For these situations, I like the cocounselling technique
"When you...
I feel...
I need...
So that..."
This is a good friend who you know cares about you being thoughtless about race issues that impact you more than her. "Calling in" (instead of calling out) is required, IMO.
I say take a risk on her and a tough conversation before cutting her loose. Your friendship may be enriched by a tough conversation. If not, if she prefers to make statements that are hurtful, and show disregard for the experience of people like you, well, you know where you stand.
posted by chapps at 9:22 PM on November 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
Believing in racism has nothing to do with being a "lefty" or "righty." It's not some let's-agree-to-disagree-it's-Thanksgiving-pass-the-potatoes. Your friend is racist.
I would advise caution on this. Your friend may not, for example, explicitly believe that black people should be oppressed, but may be too ignorant or oblivious to understand how black people are oppressed. You can support racism just by supporting the status quo, because racism is structural and pervasive in our society. It takes effort to understand this, and they haven't yet had to put that effort in.
Out-and-out decrying them as a racist is a friendship-killing move (although that course is very much open to you). But, if you want to have any chance of changing their mind, I would suggest the Jay Smooth approach - How to tell someone they sound racist. If it doesn't work, you can still walk away knowing that you gave a long friendship the chance it deserved.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:29 PM on November 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
I would advise caution on this. Your friend may not, for example, explicitly believe that black people should be oppressed, but may be too ignorant or oblivious to understand how black people are oppressed. You can support racism just by supporting the status quo, because racism is structural and pervasive in our society. It takes effort to understand this, and they haven't yet had to put that effort in.
Out-and-out decrying them as a racist is a friendship-killing move (although that course is very much open to you). But, if you want to have any chance of changing their mind, I would suggest the Jay Smooth approach - How to tell someone they sound racist. If it doesn't work, you can still walk away knowing that you gave a long friendship the chance it deserved.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:29 PM on November 1, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I don't think you need to feel bad for "not looking at things from her viewpoint" (ignorance isn't really a viewpoint) or for feeling icky about hanging out with her. Whether you want to say she "is racist" or just "believes many of the same things as someone who is racist," it doesn't really matter -- you're allowed to choose to spend your time on people with more empathy, more interest in engaging deeply, less defensiveness, and who otherwise differ from your friend on important matters of character. This is a major part of how we choose our friends -- based on their character! Lots of people who do have these qualities are probably just as fun.
But Tamanna makes a really great point that there are friends and there are friends. If you want to appreciate her as a fun person, I think it makes a lot of sense to shut down conversations that are just going to raise your blood pressure. If you believe she's a thoughtful and empathetic person at heart, but just hasn't gotten woke yet, you can always post really enlightening pieces about the subjects that are important to you on social media and hope she reads them, but that does mean being ready to shut her down if she argues. (Incidentally, I would feel slightly different about a person who makes uninformed statements, which can be mere ignorance, versus a person who picks fights with you, which is aggressive ignorance at best.)
If you're daring, or if you're about ready to walk away but need to give it the old college anarchist club try, you can say something like "look, this affects me personally as a person of color and here's why." That's harder on you because it requires you to be personally revealing, but it's also more likely to hit its mark because it forces her to recognize that real people are hurt by systemic racism and the denial that enables it.
If you wind up needing to walk away, though, that's okay too. You wouldn't be ending a friendship because you need everyone to agree with you, or because you weren't willing to accept people's ugly parts, or whatever. You'd be ending it because the qualities you value are different from the qualities she has, which is a perfectly valid (maybe the MOST valid) reason to end a friendship.
posted by babelfish at 9:49 PM on November 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
But Tamanna makes a really great point that there are friends and there are friends. If you want to appreciate her as a fun person, I think it makes a lot of sense to shut down conversations that are just going to raise your blood pressure. If you believe she's a thoughtful and empathetic person at heart, but just hasn't gotten woke yet, you can always post really enlightening pieces about the subjects that are important to you on social media and hope she reads them, but that does mean being ready to shut her down if she argues. (Incidentally, I would feel slightly different about a person who makes uninformed statements, which can be mere ignorance, versus a person who picks fights with you, which is aggressive ignorance at best.)
If you're daring, or if you're about ready to walk away but need to give it the old college anarchist club try, you can say something like "look, this affects me personally as a person of color and here's why." That's harder on you because it requires you to be personally revealing, but it's also more likely to hit its mark because it forces her to recognize that real people are hurt by systemic racism and the denial that enables it.
If you wind up needing to walk away, though, that's okay too. You wouldn't be ending a friendship because you need everyone to agree with you, or because you weren't willing to accept people's ugly parts, or whatever. You'd be ending it because the qualities you value are different from the qualities she has, which is a perfectly valid (maybe the MOST valid) reason to end a friendship.
posted by babelfish at 9:49 PM on November 1, 2015 [10 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed; please treat this like Ask MetaFilter, not a general discussion/argument space.
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:57 PM on November 1, 2015
posted by cortex (staff) at 9:57 PM on November 1, 2015
This is so tough.
Did you argue about this in person or over the internet? I find that if it's a true friend, if you go to them and say "Hey, you know, these comments really upset me because X. I've experienced X in my life. It makes feel that you think of me as X." etc. Maybe you can have a heart-to-heart and understand her a bit more. On the other hand, in person you may get a clear understanding of if you really can continue to be friends with them. Their response will be telling. Calmly responding and not getting into an argument may allow you to each hear each other out.
I've seen things from friends that basically have made my jaw drop. Sometimes it's a family member that I can't really separate from besides hiding their feed. I don't want to argue online about it. Some friends get too many strikes and end up not being friends anymore. It really sucks but sometimes people change and no amount of waiting will bring them back.
If you want to continue to be friends regardless of what they say, you'll have to learn how to completely block out those things and brush them off. I personally wouldn't want to keep a friendship like that unless maybe I got used to someone's quirks like being a few minutes late or telling the same dumb jokes. It's another thing if it offends you personally.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:12 AM on November 2, 2015
Did you argue about this in person or over the internet? I find that if it's a true friend, if you go to them and say "Hey, you know, these comments really upset me because X. I've experienced X in my life. It makes feel that you think of me as X." etc. Maybe you can have a heart-to-heart and understand her a bit more. On the other hand, in person you may get a clear understanding of if you really can continue to be friends with them. Their response will be telling. Calmly responding and not getting into an argument may allow you to each hear each other out.
I've seen things from friends that basically have made my jaw drop. Sometimes it's a family member that I can't really separate from besides hiding their feed. I don't want to argue online about it. Some friends get too many strikes and end up not being friends anymore. It really sucks but sometimes people change and no amount of waiting will bring them back.
If you want to continue to be friends regardless of what they say, you'll have to learn how to completely block out those things and brush them off. I personally wouldn't want to keep a friendship like that unless maybe I got used to someone's quirks like being a few minutes late or telling the same dumb jokes. It's another thing if it offends you personally.
posted by Crystalinne at 12:12 AM on November 2, 2015
I guess I have a couple of questions for you that might help in this situation. First: how important are politics to you? I think people often dismiss politics as an impolite topic of discussion but politics speak to values, how people believe the world is and should be, and what they're willing to do to change it or uphold the status quo. Is that kind of conversation something you feel like you could shut down if your friend starts up, or will not talking about it make you resentful and angry at your friend? That kind of thing isn't good for either of you.
Second, is your friend willing to listen? When you argue with her, what happens? Does she respond thoughtfully? Does she take into account things you've talked about in previous conversations or do you find yourself repeating the same things over and over again? If the latter, that does not sound like a healthy space to put yourself in. If the former, perhaps she would be open to changing her mind, but it will likely require quite a bit of work from you.
posted by dysh at 4:13 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Second, is your friend willing to listen? When you argue with her, what happens? Does she respond thoughtfully? Does she take into account things you've talked about in previous conversations or do you find yourself repeating the same things over and over again? If the latter, that does not sound like a healthy space to put yourself in. If the former, perhaps she would be open to changing her mind, but it will likely require quite a bit of work from you.
posted by dysh at 4:13 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
"yes, that cop should be fired, but I watched the 20 min video and that girl was being an entitled bitch"
Anyone who would say this about a child of any background, after seeing a adult, armed man physically assault her is incredibly disturbed. Beyond being racist, your friend also sounds like an asshole.
I couldn't be friends with someone who held such views. But if you want to stay in the friendship, you could frame this as: "My friend is a racist asshole, however I am willing to remain friendly with racist assholes because [X]". I am not sure what your "X" is. I definitely don't have one, but you apparently do, so you should find out what your reasoning is.
posted by Gray Skies at 5:00 AM on November 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Anyone who would say this about a child of any background, after seeing a adult, armed man physically assault her is incredibly disturbed. Beyond being racist, your friend also sounds like an asshole.
I couldn't be friends with someone who held such views. But if you want to stay in the friendship, you could frame this as: "My friend is a racist asshole, however I am willing to remain friendly with racist assholes because [X]". I am not sure what your "X" is. I definitely don't have one, but you apparently do, so you should find out what your reasoning is.
posted by Gray Skies at 5:00 AM on November 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I was also part of the "liberal / hippie / anarchist" crowd in my 20s, and one thing that I came to understand as I got into my 30s (and came to see about myself) is just how much unquestioned, unconscious entitlement and privilege was an underpinning of these scenes. As I aged, some friends from that time reverted strongly to type as the pressures of career and familial expectations came more strongly to bear on them
This was also very much my experience. If it helps to have a lens through which to look at it, I sort of see it as the difference between (more traditionally liberal) Hillary Clinton's positions and (more radical) Bernie Sanders' positions. Clinton works hard to be not racist, but she doesn't work as hard to be anti-racist. Sanders has made some missteps, but I truly feel that working on ending oppression even oppression by guys like him, is important to him. And that's sort of the difference, that at some level really working on confronting and combating injustice means less privilege for the privileged. This freaks a lot of people out. It sounds like maybe it freaks your friend out.
So it's possible that as you get older you compartmentalize your friendships and you have some people who you do fun things with but don't have heart to heart discussions about complicated political issues with. It's also entirely possible that this falls into the unacceptable arena for you in which case probably some sort of slow fade is going to serve you best here. That said, I think it's possible to have this sort of discussion in person (i.e. not online, not in facebook, not over chat). But it really is worth having them coming from the perspective that your friend's beliefs about this issue, while possibly sincerely held, are actually in a very small-scale part of the overall problem. An so maybe you want to demote your friend from close friend to acquaintance And develop some other closer friends to have perspectives that are more in line with your own and who you can get support from when this friend makes weird upsetting comments like those.
posted by jessamyn at 6:42 AM on November 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
This was also very much my experience. If it helps to have a lens through which to look at it, I sort of see it as the difference between (more traditionally liberal) Hillary Clinton's positions and (more radical) Bernie Sanders' positions. Clinton works hard to be not racist, but she doesn't work as hard to be anti-racist. Sanders has made some missteps, but I truly feel that working on ending oppression even oppression by guys like him, is important to him. And that's sort of the difference, that at some level really working on confronting and combating injustice means less privilege for the privileged. This freaks a lot of people out. It sounds like maybe it freaks your friend out.
So it's possible that as you get older you compartmentalize your friendships and you have some people who you do fun things with but don't have heart to heart discussions about complicated political issues with. It's also entirely possible that this falls into the unacceptable arena for you in which case probably some sort of slow fade is going to serve you best here. That said, I think it's possible to have this sort of discussion in person (i.e. not online, not in facebook, not over chat). But it really is worth having them coming from the perspective that your friend's beliefs about this issue, while possibly sincerely held, are actually in a very small-scale part of the overall problem. An so maybe you want to demote your friend from close friend to acquaintance And develop some other closer friends to have perspectives that are more in line with your own and who you can get support from when this friend makes weird upsetting comments like those.
posted by jessamyn at 6:42 AM on November 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
There are people in my life that spout some stupid racist shit (sometimes without intention, sometimes with) and for the most part, once something like "She deserved it" or "Black on black crime" comes out of their mouths I write them off.
A few years ago, I would have let it slide from anybody and just quietly labeled them in my head as a dumbass. But I've realized that all those people who got a pass on their casual racism or repeating hurtful spin, they don't change their ways. They keep getting more and more reinforcement that it's okay for a black child to be abused by the police. That saying "It's just a joke" is a valid excuse. They never get corrected and they never learn. While I hoped that as we grew up the old racists would die off and the new generation will be better, these little remarks that polite people let slide just serve as a way for the cancer of racism to spread unchecked. I feel that as a white woman, it is my duty to call out other white folks for this kind of shit and let them know specifically why it is unacceptable. I do it with my family with care, I do it with my co-workers diplomatically, and I do it with my friends as kindly as I can.
This shit grows in the darkness and shadows of polite society. For too long we've let folks get away with this coded racist bullshit without calling them on it. It's time to shine as much light as possible and let everyone know that it's not okay.
posted by teleri025 at 7:05 AM on November 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
A few years ago, I would have let it slide from anybody and just quietly labeled them in my head as a dumbass. But I've realized that all those people who got a pass on their casual racism or repeating hurtful spin, they don't change their ways. They keep getting more and more reinforcement that it's okay for a black child to be abused by the police. That saying "It's just a joke" is a valid excuse. They never get corrected and they never learn. While I hoped that as we grew up the old racists would die off and the new generation will be better, these little remarks that polite people let slide just serve as a way for the cancer of racism to spread unchecked. I feel that as a white woman, it is my duty to call out other white folks for this kind of shit and let them know specifically why it is unacceptable. I do it with my family with care, I do it with my co-workers diplomatically, and I do it with my friends as kindly as I can.
This shit grows in the darkness and shadows of polite society. For too long we've let folks get away with this coded racist bullshit without calling them on it. It's time to shine as much light as possible and let everyone know that it's not okay.
posted by teleri025 at 7:05 AM on November 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
Friend, a couple of times now, you've specifically brought up topics to share your opinion of why you think they aren't really racist.
I want you to think about why you keep bringing them up with me, out of all your friends, specifically.
This may seem like a fun topic of debate for you, but it's something you get to choose to engage in because at the end of the day, it doesn't affect you like it affects me. It's just a debate.
I am Asian. I can't put that down at the end of the day. I see the big ways and the small ways that this changes how people treat me, treat people like me, or treat other people who aren't white.
If you aren't willing to believe that I have had a different experience of this that you, then trying to explain or defend my lived experience just becomes a job that you have dumped on my lap, for your edification. It's not fun.
If you expect me to be your Asian friend who agrees with you that racism isn't as bad as you think it is, then surely you already know that I'm not going to be that person.
If you already know that I'm going to disagree, then why, as a friend, are you bringing these things up? I literally have skin in the game here.
If you actually want to be a better friend to me, I want you to think more carefully about whether these are topics you want to bring up with me.
I've really appreciated the times we've spent doing x, y and z, and I'd like to be able to enjoy those things with you, but if you feel like these issues are too important to you, I'll understand if you want to hang out less.
posted by Elysum at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I want you to think about why you keep bringing them up with me, out of all your friends, specifically.
This may seem like a fun topic of debate for you, but it's something you get to choose to engage in because at the end of the day, it doesn't affect you like it affects me. It's just a debate.
I am Asian. I can't put that down at the end of the day. I see the big ways and the small ways that this changes how people treat me, treat people like me, or treat other people who aren't white.
If you aren't willing to believe that I have had a different experience of this that you, then trying to explain or defend my lived experience just becomes a job that you have dumped on my lap, for your edification. It's not fun.
If you expect me to be your Asian friend who agrees with you that racism isn't as bad as you think it is, then surely you already know that I'm not going to be that person.
If you already know that I'm going to disagree, then why, as a friend, are you bringing these things up? I literally have skin in the game here.
If you actually want to be a better friend to me, I want you to think more carefully about whether these are topics you want to bring up with me.
I've really appreciated the times we've spent doing x, y and z, and I'd like to be able to enjoy those things with you, but if you feel like these issues are too important to you, I'll understand if you want to hang out less.
posted by Elysum at 8:07 AM on November 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Response by poster: Definitely a lot to think about. Thank you all for articulating this much better than the mess that was in my head. I'm not a confrontational person by nature, so while I'm naturally inclined to de-escalate these conversations and try to find a common ground, I also feel a responsibility to engage and not let these kind of comments slide. I'm still not sure why she brought up these topics specifically to me. The first was online chat, and the second was in person. Maybe she's looking for a sounding board, and I'm the most "political" out of all her friends. I don't know.
I also feel like I'm in a weird spot being Asian because we're the "model immigrant" and I have not had it nearly as bad as many other races here in the U.S.(at least in recent years). I get the stereotype that I'll be hardworking and conformist while others get the stereotype of rapists and criminals. I get this, so I don't want to conflate the experiences by sharing personal stories of discrimination, because they feel so minor in the grand scheme of things. I think I'll wait and see if these conversations change or if they become a pattern, but if she starts talking about not receiving her white privilege check, I think that'll be it for me.
posted by monologish at 8:18 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I also feel like I'm in a weird spot being Asian because we're the "model immigrant" and I have not had it nearly as bad as many other races here in the U.S.(at least in recent years). I get the stereotype that I'll be hardworking and conformist while others get the stereotype of rapists and criminals. I get this, so I don't want to conflate the experiences by sharing personal stories of discrimination, because they feel so minor in the grand scheme of things. I think I'll wait and see if these conversations change or if they become a pattern, but if she starts talking about not receiving her white privilege check, I think that'll be it for me.
posted by monologish at 8:18 AM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I would actually have guessed your friend may be bringing these up to you specifically because she views Asians as the "model immigrant" and is sort of asking for reinforcement of her views by a POC-- one she thinks might be more likely to agree with her.
I don't know your friend, and I'm not Asian, but I've watched this dynamic happen. (As I'm sure you know better than me, the stereotype that you will be hardworking and conformist can be pretty damaging too, and I think it's totally ok to call her out on her problematic views on race, using your own person experiences, if you want to.)
posted by nat at 9:36 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't know your friend, and I'm not Asian, but I've watched this dynamic happen. (As I'm sure you know better than me, the stereotype that you will be hardworking and conformist can be pretty damaging too, and I think it's totally ok to call her out on her problematic views on race, using your own person experiences, if you want to.)
posted by nat at 9:36 AM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm really confused as to why so many people seem to think her racism should just be ignored and you should accept she has "different views" to you. Racism isn't a view. It's wrong.
And please don't dismiss her racism because Asian people are frequently told they're so much better off than other races. You experience racism and you are allowed to be offended by her comments.
As someone else said above, I do not maintain friendships with racists. You deserve better people who have your back and treat you with respect.
posted by shesbenevolent at 11:16 AM on November 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
And please don't dismiss her racism because Asian people are frequently told they're so much better off than other races. You experience racism and you are allowed to be offended by her comments.
As someone else said above, I do not maintain friendships with racists. You deserve better people who have your back and treat you with respect.
posted by shesbenevolent at 11:16 AM on November 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
I have opted out of friendships because our views differed on things that were too personal and/or too important to ignore.
I couldn't stay close to one person I would have really considered a friend would have the law force me to continue a pregnancy I didn't want.
If someone says something racist, and does not respond positively to conversation about it, that affects how I see their character. I think respect for a person's character is pretty fundamental to a real friendship. For me.
I take friendships pretty seriously. I couldn't see being with an significant other who ineducably spouted racism and I couldn't see being good friends with someone who does that.
Overlapping social circles, a fun person who's around sometimes, yes, sure, maybe. But not more than that.
That doesn't mean I expect of my friends to be superhuman without flaws. But there are flaws and then there's bigotry. Casual, willful, obstinate bigotry, in your acquaintance's case. I don't think I could see her in the same light after as before, and I think I would take a couple of meaningful steps backwards (which doesn't mean ostentatious) from the relationship.
posted by Salamandrous at 1:19 PM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I couldn't stay close to one person I would have really considered a friend would have the law force me to continue a pregnancy I didn't want.
If someone says something racist, and does not respond positively to conversation about it, that affects how I see their character. I think respect for a person's character is pretty fundamental to a real friendship. For me.
I take friendships pretty seriously. I couldn't see being with an significant other who ineducably spouted racism and I couldn't see being good friends with someone who does that.
Overlapping social circles, a fun person who's around sometimes, yes, sure, maybe. But not more than that.
That doesn't mean I expect of my friends to be superhuman without flaws. But there are flaws and then there's bigotry. Casual, willful, obstinate bigotry, in your acquaintance's case. I don't think I could see her in the same light after as before, and I think I would take a couple of meaningful steps backwards (which doesn't mean ostentatious) from the relationship.
posted by Salamandrous at 1:19 PM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Reading your update gave me some thinky thoughts. Apologies if I ramble; this is just one of my hot-button issues.
I think other posters are right in that your friend is inflicting her racist views on you in hope of validation. People like that are aware, on some level, that what they're doing is Not Right; but having a member of an oppressed group (any oppressed group, not specifically the one they're oppressing but perhaps related in some ways) allows them to main the polite fiction that they're still Nice White People, not racist at all, because their (minority) friends agree with them, see?
That's why I think it's especially important for you to push back, BECAUSE you're Asian. I'm Asian too (although Desi, not East Asian) and the anti-Black claptrap I've heard from people I really thought would know better is absolutely horrifying. One of the more abhorrent ways White supremacy works is to pull non-Black ethnicities into it, too, basically pit 'model minorities' against 'criminals and thugs,' (scare quotes, obviously) so we'll do their nasty work for them.
As for the 'model minority' nonsense... as my therapist is fond of saying, 'Someone else having a broken leg doesn't mean that your sprained ankle stops hurting.' Are Asians (South and East) targeted and vilified in the same way as African Americans? God no. But the oppression we face is real and valid, both the negative (yellow fever, Dotbusters) and positive (the 'model minority' BS.) I don't have it to hand, but I read a fascinating study about how the model minority myth means that vulnerable Asian-origin immigrant populations (Hmong, Laotian, lower-caste Indian) are often left to fend for themselves. And the pressure to live up to the myth can be pretty oppressive in itself.
So all of that to say: Please do not let this girl's racism slide. As non-Black POCs, I think we have some level of responsibility to advocate for our Black brothers and sisters, especially against this sort of divide-and-conquer BS. You (and I) have privilege as model minorities; cases like your friend are excellent places to use it.
posted by Tamanna at 1:21 PM on November 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
I think other posters are right in that your friend is inflicting her racist views on you in hope of validation. People like that are aware, on some level, that what they're doing is Not Right; but having a member of an oppressed group (any oppressed group, not specifically the one they're oppressing but perhaps related in some ways) allows them to main the polite fiction that they're still Nice White People, not racist at all, because their (minority) friends agree with them, see?
That's why I think it's especially important for you to push back, BECAUSE you're Asian. I'm Asian too (although Desi, not East Asian) and the anti-Black claptrap I've heard from people I really thought would know better is absolutely horrifying. One of the more abhorrent ways White supremacy works is to pull non-Black ethnicities into it, too, basically pit 'model minorities' against 'criminals and thugs,' (scare quotes, obviously) so we'll do their nasty work for them.
As for the 'model minority' nonsense... as my therapist is fond of saying, 'Someone else having a broken leg doesn't mean that your sprained ankle stops hurting.' Are Asians (South and East) targeted and vilified in the same way as African Americans? God no. But the oppression we face is real and valid, both the negative (yellow fever, Dotbusters) and positive (the 'model minority' BS.) I don't have it to hand, but I read a fascinating study about how the model minority myth means that vulnerable Asian-origin immigrant populations (Hmong, Laotian, lower-caste Indian) are often left to fend for themselves. And the pressure to live up to the myth can be pretty oppressive in itself.
So all of that to say: Please do not let this girl's racism slide. As non-Black POCs, I think we have some level of responsibility to advocate for our Black brothers and sisters, especially against this sort of divide-and-conquer BS. You (and I) have privilege as model minorities; cases like your friend are excellent places to use it.
posted by Tamanna at 1:21 PM on November 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
"I find myself not wanting to hang out with her as much now because these comments are so offensive to me"
Life is too short and hard to have offensive folks be your besties. I'm a biracial lady, and had I been on the receiving end of her comments, they would have made me feel unsafe-- like something Toni Morrison told Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes in 1998. Describing her uneasy feelings about privileged white people, Morrison said, “If the trucks pass and they have to make a choice, they’ll put me on that truck.”
I personally do not want SuperCloseFriends who make me feel bad, offended, and/or unsafe, and I suspect you don't either - this woman is making you feel bad; ergo, you probably don't want her as a SuperCloseFriend. And I definitely don't want to be SuperCloseFriends with white people who are not doing their personal work to come to terms with their own issues of White Fragility.
"This is probably one of my closest friends at the moment."
That fact makes this hard, I get it. But you're young and you'll make other friends. It's so hard to step back and to say difficult words to the effect of "Our values just don't match up anymore, and I'm not ok with the status quo here. I don't want to be SuperCloseBFFs anymore, I want to set these conversational boundaries that used to not be there." But I think you should. The way to frame this (since it sounds like you're not ready to friend-dump her completely... yet) would be for you to mentally demote her to friendly acquaintance status, and set a boundary around not discussing race, culture, and politics with her anymore.
posted by hush at 1:57 PM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Life is too short and hard to have offensive folks be your besties. I'm a biracial lady, and had I been on the receiving end of her comments, they would have made me feel unsafe-- like something Toni Morrison told Ed Bradley on 60 Minutes in 1998. Describing her uneasy feelings about privileged white people, Morrison said, “If the trucks pass and they have to make a choice, they’ll put me on that truck.”
I personally do not want SuperCloseFriends who make me feel bad, offended, and/or unsafe, and I suspect you don't either - this woman is making you feel bad; ergo, you probably don't want her as a SuperCloseFriend. And I definitely don't want to be SuperCloseFriends with white people who are not doing their personal work to come to terms with their own issues of White Fragility.
"This is probably one of my closest friends at the moment."
That fact makes this hard, I get it. But you're young and you'll make other friends. It's so hard to step back and to say difficult words to the effect of "Our values just don't match up anymore, and I'm not ok with the status quo here. I don't want to be SuperCloseBFFs anymore, I want to set these conversational boundaries that used to not be there." But I think you should. The way to frame this (since it sounds like you're not ready to friend-dump her completely... yet) would be for you to mentally demote her to friendly acquaintance status, and set a boundary around not discussing race, culture, and politics with her anymore.
posted by hush at 1:57 PM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but if you want to oppose racism, then you are going to have to learn how to confront it. Do not let your racist white friend use you to make them feel better about their racism. I agree with others that she is probably sharing this with you precisely because you are Asian (and therefore, in her mind, "not white" -- and a minority) .. and your being nice to her despite her racist beliefs probably makes her feel more (not less) comfortable being racist.
Part of being perceived as a "model minority" is that your "example" is used to justify racism against non-Asian minorities. Part of being an ally to black people is standing up against anti-black racism. You can either be a "nice" model minority, or an anti-racist ally -- but you can't be both.
posted by Gray Skies at 6:31 AM on November 3, 2015
Part of being perceived as a "model minority" is that your "example" is used to justify racism against non-Asian minorities. Part of being an ally to black people is standing up against anti-black racism. You can either be a "nice" model minority, or an anti-racist ally -- but you can't be both.
posted by Gray Skies at 6:31 AM on November 3, 2015
Response by poster: I've definitely made it clear in both incidents that I don't agree with her at all. The first conversation re: appropriation was online, and turned into a two day debate. The second was in person, and when I started to feel myself getting heated, I had to end it because I was getting so angry I couldn't articulate my points anymore. I haven't had the come-to-jesus talk yet, and that's where I'm stuck at now. I feel like if me saying "a white person can't decide what is offensive or not for another race" is met with "i see your point, but i still don't think i should stop doing something just because someone got offended," then we are really going down two different paths. I've sensed it then, but now it's clear she's completely blind to her white privilege.
I don't know what will happen yet. Regardless, the friendship won't be same as before. I feel physically tired from thinking about this. Some talk will probably be had soon.
posted by monologish at 7:22 AM on November 3, 2015
I don't know what will happen yet. Regardless, the friendship won't be same as before. I feel physically tired from thinking about this. Some talk will probably be had soon.
posted by monologish at 7:22 AM on November 3, 2015
i still don't think i should stop doing something just because someone got offended
A valid response to that is that she is allowed to do what she wants in the larger scheme of things but you will not be with her or condone her doing it through your friendship. Like there are two things: her ability to be racist or offensive, and her ability to maintain a friendship with you while being that way. The first issue may or may not be something you want to tackle, the second is definitely in your wheelhouse and completely valid for your censure. I am sorry you are having to deal with this.
posted by jessamyn at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
A valid response to that is that she is allowed to do what she wants in the larger scheme of things but you will not be with her or condone her doing it through your friendship. Like there are two things: her ability to be racist or offensive, and her ability to maintain a friendship with you while being that way. The first issue may or may not be something you want to tackle, the second is definitely in your wheelhouse and completely valid for your censure. I am sorry you are having to deal with this.
posted by jessamyn at 7:46 AM on November 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
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People can have viewpoints that differ from yours and still be good people. You want her to come around to seeing things your way, but have you spent any time genuinely looking at things from her viewpoint? It's a two-way street, you know. Do you even fully understand why she feels that way? Doesn't sound like it. Sounds like the way you're discussing thus now is polarizing both of you and making her defensive (I don't know that I'd be feeling terribly open towards a friend who dismissed my views as "BS").
Take a step back and ask more questions, with an open mind, explore her views and let her explore yours.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 7:00 PM on November 1, 2015 [18 favorites]