How can I detach myself from most of my local family members?
October 26, 2015 8:48 PM Subscribe
My father, stepmother, aunt, cousin, and sister seem to have a vested interest in seeing me inaccurately. I've come to terms with their scapegoating and black-sheeping of me. It's been validated by numerous therapists as well as my mom, and the dynamic fits most of what I've read online about scapegoating dynamics. To abruptly go No Contact with them would make things much worse for me. I need Low Contact, polite, superficial strategies, please.
I am in therapy already, and I know that my family's truth-twisting, insistence that I really AM as bad as they think, feigned "concern" for my MANY MANY failings, and triangulation/gossip about me are not my fault and are dysfunctional. Unfortunately up until recently I didn't realize how pervasive and intractable their bad opinion of me was and how completely committed they are to it. I didn't realize the extent to which my sister, who I thought had my back most of the time, has allowed herself to be influenced by our parents.
To list all they do and say could fill a book, but here's an example from my sister of one of the nasty sorts of things she says in a purely deadpan voice, as though she's stating a fact and not insulting me: "I thought all your friends were just whoever your boyfriend at the time was hanging out with." There's the slightest hint of a sneer at the word "boyfriend." (One of the Family Myths about my MANY MANY failings is that I'm "boycrazy" and a chameleon with no real identity of my own, but that all my hobbies and interests fluctuate and change because they're whatever my boyfriend at the time is into. Not true, and I've tried to tell them what I'm really like in the past to no avail. They insist they know me better than I know myself and I'm just in denial. I cannot win). She has also recently put both my cousin and my mother in the middle of some unknown grievance she has with me. My cousin seems to enjoy the role of fixer and go-between but my mother, sensibly, has refused. I have only a vague idea of what my sister is angry at me for, because she is being so passive-aggressive. I can't think of anything I've done that warrants this. I'm feeling super triggered and betrayed by her and I no longer trust her. Looking back on our relationship, I see a history of her being sarcastic and mean to me over the years, and I feel like I've been a bit of a fool to have thought we had resolved our scapegoat/golden child dynamic. I truly thought we had, because we'd had a few talks about it and both gone to therapy.
My mother, to the extent that she's willing to give any advice about this, has said that my sister and I could each write down our idea of an ideal sister, because she thinks the root of the problem between us is that we aren't meeting each other's expectations. I feel that my sister is really the one with the expectations; mine are baseline: that she won't zing me with sarcastic remarks and that she will have the courtesy to believe me about my own lived experience. Since my sister is the one who has been hostile and been triangulating, I feel like the burden is on her to initiate a conversation. I have no desire to open myself up for more of her nastiness by broaching a subject I can't even define.
The holidays are coming. I have a knot in my stomach just thinking about all of the people I mentioned above, but especially my sister, being together with me...making sarcastic remarks...feigning concern...asking about my current boyfriend just to open up a conversation in which they can remind me how "weak" and "codependent" I am in relationships and how I SHOULD be single for a while instead of relationship-hopping like I always do (never mind that I was single for two years and in therapy before I met my current, and wonderful, partner. They will not like him, because their knee-jerk response is that if I pick him he MUST be unworthy). Oh, and then there is the anxiety I have about how they might taint my younger cousins' and nephews' opinions of me too. If I don't go to family events, the gossip will be worse. Also, my mother would feel put in the middle and this would cause her stress. I do not want or need any more stress from these people and neither does she. How do I peacefully disengage when I have to be in their presence?
I am in therapy already, and I know that my family's truth-twisting, insistence that I really AM as bad as they think, feigned "concern" for my MANY MANY failings, and triangulation/gossip about me are not my fault and are dysfunctional. Unfortunately up until recently I didn't realize how pervasive and intractable their bad opinion of me was and how completely committed they are to it. I didn't realize the extent to which my sister, who I thought had my back most of the time, has allowed herself to be influenced by our parents.
To list all they do and say could fill a book, but here's an example from my sister of one of the nasty sorts of things she says in a purely deadpan voice, as though she's stating a fact and not insulting me: "I thought all your friends were just whoever your boyfriend at the time was hanging out with." There's the slightest hint of a sneer at the word "boyfriend." (One of the Family Myths about my MANY MANY failings is that I'm "boycrazy" and a chameleon with no real identity of my own, but that all my hobbies and interests fluctuate and change because they're whatever my boyfriend at the time is into. Not true, and I've tried to tell them what I'm really like in the past to no avail. They insist they know me better than I know myself and I'm just in denial. I cannot win). She has also recently put both my cousin and my mother in the middle of some unknown grievance she has with me. My cousin seems to enjoy the role of fixer and go-between but my mother, sensibly, has refused. I have only a vague idea of what my sister is angry at me for, because she is being so passive-aggressive. I can't think of anything I've done that warrants this. I'm feeling super triggered and betrayed by her and I no longer trust her. Looking back on our relationship, I see a history of her being sarcastic and mean to me over the years, and I feel like I've been a bit of a fool to have thought we had resolved our scapegoat/golden child dynamic. I truly thought we had, because we'd had a few talks about it and both gone to therapy.
My mother, to the extent that she's willing to give any advice about this, has said that my sister and I could each write down our idea of an ideal sister, because she thinks the root of the problem between us is that we aren't meeting each other's expectations. I feel that my sister is really the one with the expectations; mine are baseline: that she won't zing me with sarcastic remarks and that she will have the courtesy to believe me about my own lived experience. Since my sister is the one who has been hostile and been triangulating, I feel like the burden is on her to initiate a conversation. I have no desire to open myself up for more of her nastiness by broaching a subject I can't even define.
The holidays are coming. I have a knot in my stomach just thinking about all of the people I mentioned above, but especially my sister, being together with me...making sarcastic remarks...feigning concern...asking about my current boyfriend just to open up a conversation in which they can remind me how "weak" and "codependent" I am in relationships and how I SHOULD be single for a while instead of relationship-hopping like I always do (never mind that I was single for two years and in therapy before I met my current, and wonderful, partner. They will not like him, because their knee-jerk response is that if I pick him he MUST be unworthy). Oh, and then there is the anxiety I have about how they might taint my younger cousins' and nephews' opinions of me too. If I don't go to family events, the gossip will be worse. Also, my mother would feel put in the middle and this would cause her stress. I do not want or need any more stress from these people and neither does she. How do I peacefully disengage when I have to be in their presence?
You get to decide what your relationship with them is like. You can move further away to facilitate this. In the meantime practice not caring.
posted by k8t at 9:05 PM on October 26, 2015
posted by k8t at 9:05 PM on October 26, 2015
Do you have to be around them?
posted by gt2 at 9:07 PM on October 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by gt2 at 9:07 PM on October 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
Move. Or don't talk to them.
posted by lunastellasol at 9:07 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by lunastellasol at 9:07 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
In all seriousness, I have booked and traveled to friends/family/vacations abroad and done kind, positive things (volunteering for charities through work, trained and run 5ks) that kept me busy and inaccessible to family, and they clearly could not chastise me for or accompany me while doing them.
I sent updates via regularly mailed postcards and group emails but didn't really read or respond to family messages, citing spotty wifi.
You can wean them down and train them (even if my suggestions don't work, someone will suggest another that clicks with you and is inscrutable to the family).
Do NOT engage in gossip. Even on accident. Do not relate stories or emotions about other family members/your partner -- only direct, one-on-one things (what time to arrive? should I bring X? need ice? etc.).
Firmly set arrival and leave times, preferably by having plans prior and after that can't be changed (as far as they know).
Take a friend if your partner's not available and you're truly stressed about it. Some people get less satisfaction being a shitheel in front of a virtual stranger.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:10 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
I sent updates via regularly mailed postcards and group emails but didn't really read or respond to family messages, citing spotty wifi.
You can wean them down and train them (even if my suggestions don't work, someone will suggest another that clicks with you and is inscrutable to the family).
Do NOT engage in gossip. Even on accident. Do not relate stories or emotions about other family members/your partner -- only direct, one-on-one things (what time to arrive? should I bring X? need ice? etc.).
Firmly set arrival and leave times, preferably by having plans prior and after that can't be changed (as far as they know).
Take a friend if your partner's not available and you're truly stressed about it. Some people get less satisfaction being a shitheel in front of a virtual stranger.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:10 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
You don't have to be in their presence. Does the gossip really hurt you? Let them gossip; they're doing it anyway and there's no way to stop it. Your mom has to make the same decision for herself, you can't and shouldn't get in the middle of her relationships with them. Why don't the two of you do something nice over the holidays? Go somewhere warm and sandy?
posted by bleep at 9:11 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 9:11 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Response by poster: I promise not to threadsit, but just to clarify: I can't afford to move yet. I do have to be around them or it will be even worse. And HOW do I get myself not to care in the moment after someone insults me? It is a lot of emotional labor to mediate being triggered.
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2015
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 9:13 PM on October 26, 2015
Harriet Lerner writes a lot about setting and maintaining boundaries with family members and changing patterns with loved ones. I suspect you might find her books helpful, and your local library probably has at least one.
posted by bunderful at 9:22 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by bunderful at 9:22 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
How great would it be to have a quiet holiday with only your mom and boyfriend and friends? Or your boyfriend's family? Or take a vacation that week to someplace warm or snowy or whatever is the opposite of home? You say you have to be with them, but you don't. You really don't. It doesn't need to be a drama-filled gesture, just "hey guys, I have some different plans this year. Hope you all have a great holiday and we'll catch up soon!"
posted by cecic at 9:22 PM on October 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by cecic at 9:22 PM on October 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Bullies feed not just on weakness, but information. You have to shut them down when they approach you. Be the worst conversational partner you can be. If it means hanging with your mom, doing the dishes, or watching tv with the kids, do not engage inquiries into your personal life beyond the minimum "work is fine" "boyfriend is fine" "did you catch the news" etc.
You have to define the boundary. Just because they are family doesn't mean they deserve to know information about you. They are just people who you share a meal with on holidays.
And if you can practice being ice cold on Thanksgiving, maybe Christmas will seem less awful.
Of course, you could just skip the holidays all together, or keep your visit brief. Your mom knows what's up. Maybe see her for certain portions of the holiday (Thanksgiving morning or Christmas morning) and then get the heck out of there.
posted by charlielxxv at 9:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
You have to define the boundary. Just because they are family doesn't mean they deserve to know information about you. They are just people who you share a meal with on holidays.
And if you can practice being ice cold on Thanksgiving, maybe Christmas will seem less awful.
Of course, you could just skip the holidays all together, or keep your visit brief. Your mom knows what's up. Maybe see her for certain portions of the holiday (Thanksgiving morning or Christmas morning) and then get the heck out of there.
posted by charlielxxv at 9:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [22 favorites]
This boils down to boundaries. I would talk to your therapist specifically about how to use boundaries to help you both deflect this kind of behavior and to not care about it when it happens.
It takes a lot of work to actively decide that you are not going to consider what people think of you. You have to really work on not letting them enter the boundary of your thoughts and your psyche. When you hear yourself worrying or feeling bad, you simply mentally remind yourself that you are not going to be affected by the comment or the snide remark or whatever, because it is meaningless. And you are kind to yourself in your reminders. And then you go home and you do something really nice and soothing for yourself and you tell yourself that you did a good job and that you are proud of your hard work.
Every time you see them, this is what you do.
Be kind to yourself as much as possible as you work through this, and take care.
posted by sockermom at 9:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
It takes a lot of work to actively decide that you are not going to consider what people think of you. You have to really work on not letting them enter the boundary of your thoughts and your psyche. When you hear yourself worrying or feeling bad, you simply mentally remind yourself that you are not going to be affected by the comment or the snide remark or whatever, because it is meaningless. And you are kind to yourself in your reminders. And then you go home and you do something really nice and soothing for yourself and you tell yourself that you did a good job and that you are proud of your hard work.
Every time you see them, this is what you do.
Be kind to yourself as much as possible as you work through this, and take care.
posted by sockermom at 9:24 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
Best answer: And HOW do I get myself not to care in the moment after someone insults me?
Think about it this way. Their version of you suits their version of themselves. They are like a film projector projecting the film they are running in their head because of something they need to see. You can't change the film they are running, but you don't have to be in the audience. I know it's hard when the people we want to love sincerely, can't love with open sincerity in return. Pity them. Pity them that they are missing the real you. Love yourself and project that version of a self-loving you in your day-to-day activities. Respond to them from a self-loving place. If sis speaks sneeringly ignore or say 'I don't know what you mean' and go back to what you were doing. Don't acknowledge, let alone accept their view of you, but don't contradict them either. Act ignorant of their criticisms, as though they were not spoken. If questioned about your silence, say you don't bother with comments that don't represent you.
It's not easy, but it's a fantastic life skill to develop that will bring riches and strength.
posted by Thella at 9:31 PM on October 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Think about it this way. Their version of you suits their version of themselves. They are like a film projector projecting the film they are running in their head because of something they need to see. You can't change the film they are running, but you don't have to be in the audience. I know it's hard when the people we want to love sincerely, can't love with open sincerity in return. Pity them. Pity them that they are missing the real you. Love yourself and project that version of a self-loving you in your day-to-day activities. Respond to them from a self-loving place. If sis speaks sneeringly ignore or say 'I don't know what you mean' and go back to what you were doing. Don't acknowledge, let alone accept their view of you, but don't contradict them either. Act ignorant of their criticisms, as though they were not spoken. If questioned about your silence, say you don't bother with comments that don't represent you.
It's not easy, but it's a fantastic life skill to develop that will bring riches and strength.
posted by Thella at 9:31 PM on October 26, 2015 [20 favorites]
Best answer: I have one more idea. You should write down all the contacts you have with your family members and assign a rating, positive, negative, or neutral. Something real quick. You mentioned that if you don't see them, "it will get worse". Well that sounds terrible! I would feel paralyzed and shitty too. But try to log it and see what happens. Or experiment with not seeing them and log the results. It seems like the worse has already happened so reduce their power over you by treating this as an experiment. This is one method of cultivating detachment.
posted by charlielxxv at 9:35 PM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by charlielxxv at 9:35 PM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Best answer: If I were stuck dealing with people like this, I'd give them very little of myself--my genuine personal thoughts--but I guess I might sometimes try to train them.
In moments when they were treating me well and saying things I liked, I'd reward them with smiles and the happiest expressions of interest in them that I could manage. And otherwise, I guess I might be bored, silent, "tired," attentive to something else (books, TV, etc.), etc., and I might try staring into the distance, moving away while they're speaking, leaning back to take naps in front of them, and that kind of thing--nothing pronounced enough to be worth talking about but nothing very fun to engage with either.
One thing on that list actually comes from experience. There were some folks I had to hang around with occasionally, and I realized at a certain point that they all thought it was fine for people to just sort of check out and take naps. So to help pass the time, I started doing the same fairly often, usually excusing myself from the room but, you know, not necessarily. If your family is permissive about some essentially non-social behavior like that, go for it.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 9:49 PM on October 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
In moments when they were treating me well and saying things I liked, I'd reward them with smiles and the happiest expressions of interest in them that I could manage. And otherwise, I guess I might be bored, silent, "tired," attentive to something else (books, TV, etc.), etc., and I might try staring into the distance, moving away while they're speaking, leaning back to take naps in front of them, and that kind of thing--nothing pronounced enough to be worth talking about but nothing very fun to engage with either.
One thing on that list actually comes from experience. There were some folks I had to hang around with occasionally, and I realized at a certain point that they all thought it was fine for people to just sort of check out and take naps. So to help pass the time, I started doing the same fairly often, usually excusing myself from the room but, you know, not necessarily. If your family is permissive about some essentially non-social behavior like that, go for it.
posted by Monsieur Caution at 9:49 PM on October 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
Remind yourself that your sister's take on things is just that, it reflects her bias and angle. It's not the truth. You can't move her on it, so it's a waste of breath and time to try (painful, too). But you can compartmentalize, to a degree, and you can ask her to do the same. Two rules: no negativity, and as much positivity as possible.
When she says something mean or baiting that suggests you're [whatever], tell her that you'd rather enjoy the time you have together, if you can, and that some topics are going to be off-limits for you, in order for that can happen. Some things are not going to be up for discussion. Character assassination should be off the table completely. (Also, don't initiate conversations about your boyfriend or whatever the sensitive subjects are.)
If pressed: tell her she's entitled to think what she likes, but you disagree with her in a profound way, and you don't see how those differences are going to be reconciled. Further discussion will be unpleasant, and since she's not going to change your mind right then either, there's no point in talking about it. Redirect the conversation to something you feel ok with, and leave the room if she persists. Repeat as many times as you have to.
And, if you can, try to connect with her on some other level and generate goodwill. Bring up memories of good times; go to a movie together, get your nails done - plan something you both like (or could like) that involves an activity other than just talking. No negativity allowed. If it means you're stuck talking about the weather, so be it.
There will probably be at least one blow-up, but if she sees you making an effort to connect, she might be wiling to work with you.
(This is what I've done with one family member, and it works to keep hot-button discussions to a minimum.)
(Took me too long to write this, 2nd Monsieur Caution :) )
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:52 PM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
When she says something mean or baiting that suggests you're [whatever], tell her that you'd rather enjoy the time you have together, if you can, and that some topics are going to be off-limits for you, in order for that can happen. Some things are not going to be up for discussion. Character assassination should be off the table completely. (Also, don't initiate conversations about your boyfriend or whatever the sensitive subjects are.)
If pressed: tell her she's entitled to think what she likes, but you disagree with her in a profound way, and you don't see how those differences are going to be reconciled. Further discussion will be unpleasant, and since she's not going to change your mind right then either, there's no point in talking about it. Redirect the conversation to something you feel ok with, and leave the room if she persists. Repeat as many times as you have to.
And, if you can, try to connect with her on some other level and generate goodwill. Bring up memories of good times; go to a movie together, get your nails done - plan something you both like (or could like) that involves an activity other than just talking. No negativity allowed. If it means you're stuck talking about the weather, so be it.
There will probably be at least one blow-up, but if she sees you making an effort to connect, she might be wiling to work with you.
(This is what I've done with one family member, and it works to keep hot-button discussions to a minimum.)
(Took me too long to write this, 2nd Monsieur Caution :) )
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:52 PM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I do have to be around them or it will be even worse.
This is at least a part of the problem you've been having - you're giving them too much importance in your life. Being a "family" isn't a right - and if your family isn't allowing you to grow and be a better person by being around them, you may have to just grieve the loss of your idea of family and do what you can to replace them in your day to day life.
As you begin to get healthier emotionally, it's important to cultivate friends who are also emotionally healthy. These friends are who you practice with and get comfortable interacting in a normal, healthy way. The more you're around your healthy friends, the less pull your unhealthy family will have over you.
As you get stronger and more confident at interacting in a positive way, you'll get better at recognizing the specific ways your family pulls you into their dysfunction. You may even be able to take steps toward encouraging your family to improve the way they interact with you. You will at least get more comfortable at setting and maintaining personal boundaries as you see your healthy friends do this with each other without becoming snarky.
However, I don't want to encourage you to think that your family will necessarily want to change or that change will be easy - it won't. And you may end up deciding, as my spouse did, that it's better for your own health to limit your family contact to short phone calls on a semi-regular basis instead of spending time with them in person. My spouse's family all try to guilt him for not visiting, and they often grouse and complain about him when on the phone. They have very little interest in him or his family or life, and mostly want to talk about themselves and their issues when he calls. But over the years, he's gotten better and better at maintaining his personal boundaries with them without being nasty - when a boundary is about to be breached, he simply tells them he has to go, it was good to talk to them, and hangs up. He calls just often enough to satisfy himself that he's not completely ignoring his family.
I wish you the best as you move forward into a healthier life. It's the most important thing you could possibly do for your future spouse and children.
posted by summerstorm at 10:13 PM on October 26, 2015 [27 favorites]
This is at least a part of the problem you've been having - you're giving them too much importance in your life. Being a "family" isn't a right - and if your family isn't allowing you to grow and be a better person by being around them, you may have to just grieve the loss of your idea of family and do what you can to replace them in your day to day life.
As you begin to get healthier emotionally, it's important to cultivate friends who are also emotionally healthy. These friends are who you practice with and get comfortable interacting in a normal, healthy way. The more you're around your healthy friends, the less pull your unhealthy family will have over you.
As you get stronger and more confident at interacting in a positive way, you'll get better at recognizing the specific ways your family pulls you into their dysfunction. You may even be able to take steps toward encouraging your family to improve the way they interact with you. You will at least get more comfortable at setting and maintaining personal boundaries as you see your healthy friends do this with each other without becoming snarky.
However, I don't want to encourage you to think that your family will necessarily want to change or that change will be easy - it won't. And you may end up deciding, as my spouse did, that it's better for your own health to limit your family contact to short phone calls on a semi-regular basis instead of spending time with them in person. My spouse's family all try to guilt him for not visiting, and they often grouse and complain about him when on the phone. They have very little interest in him or his family or life, and mostly want to talk about themselves and their issues when he calls. But over the years, he's gotten better and better at maintaining his personal boundaries with them without being nasty - when a boundary is about to be breached, he simply tells them he has to go, it was good to talk to them, and hangs up. He calls just often enough to satisfy himself that he's not completely ignoring his family.
I wish you the best as you move forward into a healthier life. It's the most important thing you could possibly do for your future spouse and children.
posted by summerstorm at 10:13 PM on October 26, 2015 [27 favorites]
Best answer: If you're not around them, it might be worse, but you don't have to experience either the bad of being there or the worse of not being there, because you don't have to know about it. If a bitchy family member insults you in the forest and no one is there to see it, does the insult make a sound? Who cares, because you're not there to hear it?
The boundary you should draw is that you will not spend time with people who make you feel bad about yourself. That includes both people who make awful comments, as well as anyone who tries to tell you about awful things said about you by others. You set a boundary that you will neither listen to firsthand or secondhand insults and belittling comments and rudeness and undermining. If someone tries to say those things to you, they get one warning to stop, and then you leave. If someone else tries to tell you afterwards what was said behind your back, they get one warning to stop, and then you leave.
You need to practice saying, "well, it was nice to see you, but I'm not going to participate in a conversation about my flaws, so I'm just going to leave now. I'll see you next time!" Or, even shorter, "hey, I have to go. See you later." And then you get up and leave, or hang up the phone, or walk away.
Bottom line is that the way you get through this is by realizing that other people's opinions about you are none of your business, and that unless you specifically ask them, it's rude for them to insist on making those opinions your business. You're not being rude by cutting them off; they're being rude by talking about stuff that is hurtful to you. You can let them know that and ask them to stop, but if they refuse, your best bet is simply to refuse to be there when it happens, and to make a conscious decision not to seek out or entertain any information about what happened when you weren't around.
You're not crazy. They are awful. You will be okay. But you need to stand up for yourself, because it's clear that the people who are supposed to love you aren't going to do it if you don't. So be brave for yourself, and don't let these shitty people ruin your holidays.
posted by decathecting at 10:39 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
The boundary you should draw is that you will not spend time with people who make you feel bad about yourself. That includes both people who make awful comments, as well as anyone who tries to tell you about awful things said about you by others. You set a boundary that you will neither listen to firsthand or secondhand insults and belittling comments and rudeness and undermining. If someone tries to say those things to you, they get one warning to stop, and then you leave. If someone else tries to tell you afterwards what was said behind your back, they get one warning to stop, and then you leave.
You need to practice saying, "well, it was nice to see you, but I'm not going to participate in a conversation about my flaws, so I'm just going to leave now. I'll see you next time!" Or, even shorter, "hey, I have to go. See you later." And then you get up and leave, or hang up the phone, or walk away.
Bottom line is that the way you get through this is by realizing that other people's opinions about you are none of your business, and that unless you specifically ask them, it's rude for them to insist on making those opinions your business. You're not being rude by cutting them off; they're being rude by talking about stuff that is hurtful to you. You can let them know that and ask them to stop, but if they refuse, your best bet is simply to refuse to be there when it happens, and to make a conscious decision not to seek out or entertain any information about what happened when you weren't around.
You're not crazy. They are awful. You will be okay. But you need to stand up for yourself, because it's clear that the people who are supposed to love you aren't going to do it if you don't. So be brave for yourself, and don't let these shitty people ruin your holidays.
posted by decathecting at 10:39 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]
If I don't go to family events, the gossip will be worse.
You can't control this. Nothing you can do will make the gossip stop. I can completely identify with this but I promise you that not going is infinitely less stressful than going.
I do not want or need any more stress from these people and neither does she
Your mother is a grownup and can handle it. In fact she's in a position to give your sister a smackdown about the passive aggressive criticism but she chooses not to.
Put yourself first. Go bare minimum with these people. Life is short and really can be good once you stop trying to convince other people that you don't suck. Ypu know you don't suck. 7 billion other people assume you don't suck and are open to accepting you as you are. These 3-4 people? Really, they are not worth your time.
posted by headnsouth at 11:04 PM on October 26, 2015 [35 favorites]
You can't control this. Nothing you can do will make the gossip stop. I can completely identify with this but I promise you that not going is infinitely less stressful than going.
I do not want or need any more stress from these people and neither does she
Your mother is a grownup and can handle it. In fact she's in a position to give your sister a smackdown about the passive aggressive criticism but she chooses not to.
Put yourself first. Go bare minimum with these people. Life is short and really can be good once you stop trying to convince other people that you don't suck. Ypu know you don't suck. 7 billion other people assume you don't suck and are open to accepting you as you are. These 3-4 people? Really, they are not worth your time.
posted by headnsouth at 11:04 PM on October 26, 2015 [35 favorites]
Stop providing them with information. Any information. And you're not going to stop the gossip so just remove that from the equation and don't go to shit you don't want to go to.
The practicalities of this are easy. It's the fact that changing the practicals probably won't change how you feel about this situation that's harder to deal with.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:01 AM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The practicalities of this are easy. It's the fact that changing the practicals probably won't change how you feel about this situation that's harder to deal with.
posted by DarlingBri at 2:01 AM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love the suggestion of just showing up for dessert. But..... You're going to have to have an 'excuse' for why you couldn't attend the whole drama. My suggestion is to go volunteer somewhere with your boyfriend. Go fill food bags or serve meals to the homeless. (I used to do this every year to escape my family drama. It's perfect because how can they possibly criticize you for volunteering with a soup kitchen? Plus, you get the warm fuzzies from doing something good!)
posted by PorcineWithMe at 3:08 AM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by PorcineWithMe at 3:08 AM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Best answer: There's a great book about dealing with someone who has Borderline Personality Disorder, also useful for dealing with anyone who has poor boundaries, is manipulative, highly dramatic, etc. Stop Walking on Eggshells.
My family was and is pretty screwed up, and I have a similar sister. Living 1,000 miles away is a big help, so do your best to get out. Things that help(ed) me:
Avoid them. get involved in any kind of group so there's a reason you're not home. Get a part time job in retail, take a class. I worked in retail for a while - great way to avoid most of the holiday crap.
Distract. Come to any gathering with a list of topics - sports, local stuff, jokes, whatever. When it gets snide, change the topic.
Look for the good in them. And try to draw it out. Instead of letting Mom be mean, ask Mom about her childhood, her parents, school, etc. It's also a form of distraction, it may help you understand why she's mean, and you may get good stories.
When someone is unkind to you, leave. Leave the conversation, the room, the house.
When someone is nice to you, give them positive feedback. If Mom says That top looks cute reply Thanks, that made me feel good.
Eventually, learn to label their crap. I thought all your friends were just whoever your boyfriend at the time was hanging out with. That's kind of hurtful. I wish you wouldn't talk about me that way.
The reality is that as long as you live with them, especially if they are supporting you financially, it's extremely difficult to change things. Make independence your highest priority.
posted by theora55 at 4:53 AM on October 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
My family was and is pretty screwed up, and I have a similar sister. Living 1,000 miles away is a big help, so do your best to get out. Things that help(ed) me:
Avoid them. get involved in any kind of group so there's a reason you're not home. Get a part time job in retail, take a class. I worked in retail for a while - great way to avoid most of the holiday crap.
Distract. Come to any gathering with a list of topics - sports, local stuff, jokes, whatever. When it gets snide, change the topic.
Look for the good in them. And try to draw it out. Instead of letting Mom be mean, ask Mom about her childhood, her parents, school, etc. It's also a form of distraction, it may help you understand why she's mean, and you may get good stories.
When someone is unkind to you, leave. Leave the conversation, the room, the house.
When someone is nice to you, give them positive feedback. If Mom says That top looks cute reply Thanks, that made me feel good.
Eventually, learn to label their crap. I thought all your friends were just whoever your boyfriend at the time was hanging out with. That's kind of hurtful. I wish you wouldn't talk about me that way.
The reality is that as long as you live with them, especially if they are supporting you financially, it's extremely difficult to change things. Make independence your highest priority.
posted by theora55 at 4:53 AM on October 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
One of the phrases that helped me take the sting out of bad family interactions was to stop expecting anything different. What sometimes happens is that there's a double injury: first of the insult and then from the unfulfilled expectation that a good sister would never do that. And that second one causes all sorts of problems: why do they treat only me this way maybe I deserve it other people don't have terrible families why don't I get to have a nice family I must at some level think I deserve this... And so on.
When I was attempting to build boundaries without actually reducing the amount of time I spent with the family member, it helped to let go of that second expectation: there was nothing I could do to change their behavior, that's just who they were, and I needed to stop expecting anything different. So whenever they said something, I kept my face blank and in my head I smiled and said, "of course you say that." Not in a hostile, sarcastic, or wounded tone (the tone is important), but one of confidence and bemusement. You're like a scientist observing animals in the wild; you don't get angry when lions kill, you just take a note and go "of course you do that."
It doesn't help much at first, I'll admit. In some ways it makes it worse at first because you're suddenly hyper aware of everything and you don't want to let go of the idea that a sister is someone who should love and support you and why should you have give up that idea when she's the one causing problems and other families get to be happy. Power through those feelings. Start accepting them for who they are: people who have incredibly wrong and outdated views of you. Which means of course they'll harass you about being boy crazy. Of course they think you have no friends. That's their nature and that's who they are and you can't expect any different. When you stop expecting differently the sting of betrayal starts to go away; eventually that means the sting of the initial insult disappears too because you're not invested anymore. Their insults diminish to the level that a stranger's comments would have, and then you can turn away and keep hanging out with your mom.
posted by lilac girl at 4:54 AM on October 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
When I was attempting to build boundaries without actually reducing the amount of time I spent with the family member, it helped to let go of that second expectation: there was nothing I could do to change their behavior, that's just who they were, and I needed to stop expecting anything different. So whenever they said something, I kept my face blank and in my head I smiled and said, "of course you say that." Not in a hostile, sarcastic, or wounded tone (the tone is important), but one of confidence and bemusement. You're like a scientist observing animals in the wild; you don't get angry when lions kill, you just take a note and go "of course you do that."
It doesn't help much at first, I'll admit. In some ways it makes it worse at first because you're suddenly hyper aware of everything and you don't want to let go of the idea that a sister is someone who should love and support you and why should you have give up that idea when she's the one causing problems and other families get to be happy. Power through those feelings. Start accepting them for who they are: people who have incredibly wrong and outdated views of you. Which means of course they'll harass you about being boy crazy. Of course they think you have no friends. That's their nature and that's who they are and you can't expect any different. When you stop expecting differently the sting of betrayal starts to go away; eventually that means the sting of the initial insult disappears too because you're not invested anymore. Their insults diminish to the level that a stranger's comments would have, and then you can turn away and keep hanging out with your mom.
posted by lilac girl at 4:54 AM on October 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Best answer: I think that I've experienced some family dynamics similar to those that you are facing. Honestly, disengagement is generally the best answer. I don't mean to sound like I'm second-guessing you but you really don't need to spend time with them. How will it be worse? If someone says something terrible about you at family event you didn't attend, does your cousin relay it to you later? If so, ask her to please stop doing that because it's not helping. You don't have to completely cut them off but you can decide to go to every other event, every third event, etc. or just hang out with people like your mother who don't make you insane. If people gossip, who cares? Haters gonna hate hate hate hate hate. Shake it off. Shake it off.
That said, it sounds like that is not your preferred approach, nor is just ignoring comments directed at you. In response to crappy family comments, you can play dumb ("I'm sorry, what was that? What do you mean? I don't understand."). Pros: It will make the commenter uncomfortable. Cons: It may shift the commenter from passive-aggressive to aggressive-aggressive. You can smile and say something nice but insincere ("oh sister, you're so funny/silly/goofy/cute/weird/clever!") then redirect ("say, how is that [sister's hobby, friend, job, interest] going? I haven't heard you mention it in a while"). I think the former requires better acting skills because you actually have to play dumb whereas it's easier for me to smile, act cheerful and redirect.
It may be helpful for you to think about how your family wants you to act. It sounds like they want to hear you say how you are basically helpless in the world but for boyfriend, right? So don't give them any ammo. When your sister asks, "how is boyfriend?", you just say, "he's great! how is your [job, spouse, pet, whatever]?" Talk about something you did that doesn't involve him (girls night out, knitting group, Pilates class, work). I think work is a good one because it shows you're independent but you know better than I do how that would go over.
As the season approaches, you can practice such situations. Write a list of things that your sister has said or could say and come up with responses. Personally, I like to redirect because people like to talk about themselves more than they like listening so before I go somewhere where I will have to deal with lots of people, I come up with general questions I can ask. They're lame but it helps (how was your weekend, what are you doing for the holidays, have any travel plans coming up, seen any movies lately, how's your family/partner/partner's family, etc.). If writing a list of shitty things someone might say about you and practicing responses sounds like work, that's because it is, which is why disengagement is probably a better bet but I digress.
I will also say that in my family, I have no problem forming my own opinions of people, even those whom I have not spent a lot of time with. My sister in law has frequently described a cousin as racist and crazy. This cousin has always been really sweet to me and I have said as much ("sister in law thinks she's crazy but she's always been sweet to me"). So I wouldn't worry a ton about other people's opinions being shaped by such things. If they're silly enough to take things they hear from other family members at face value, I don't think you're missing much if they don't like you. But that's just me.
posted by kat518 at 6:36 AM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
That said, it sounds like that is not your preferred approach, nor is just ignoring comments directed at you. In response to crappy family comments, you can play dumb ("I'm sorry, what was that? What do you mean? I don't understand."). Pros: It will make the commenter uncomfortable. Cons: It may shift the commenter from passive-aggressive to aggressive-aggressive. You can smile and say something nice but insincere ("oh sister, you're so funny/silly/goofy/cute/weird/clever!") then redirect ("say, how is that [sister's hobby, friend, job, interest] going? I haven't heard you mention it in a while"). I think the former requires better acting skills because you actually have to play dumb whereas it's easier for me to smile, act cheerful and redirect.
It may be helpful for you to think about how your family wants you to act. It sounds like they want to hear you say how you are basically helpless in the world but for boyfriend, right? So don't give them any ammo. When your sister asks, "how is boyfriend?", you just say, "he's great! how is your [job, spouse, pet, whatever]?" Talk about something you did that doesn't involve him (girls night out, knitting group, Pilates class, work). I think work is a good one because it shows you're independent but you know better than I do how that would go over.
As the season approaches, you can practice such situations. Write a list of things that your sister has said or could say and come up with responses. Personally, I like to redirect because people like to talk about themselves more than they like listening so before I go somewhere where I will have to deal with lots of people, I come up with general questions I can ask. They're lame but it helps (how was your weekend, what are you doing for the holidays, have any travel plans coming up, seen any movies lately, how's your family/partner/partner's family, etc.). If writing a list of shitty things someone might say about you and practicing responses sounds like work, that's because it is, which is why disengagement is probably a better bet but I digress.
I will also say that in my family, I have no problem forming my own opinions of people, even those whom I have not spent a lot of time with. My sister in law has frequently described a cousin as racist and crazy. This cousin has always been really sweet to me and I have said as much ("sister in law thinks she's crazy but she's always been sweet to me"). So I wouldn't worry a ton about other people's opinions being shaped by such things. If they're silly enough to take things they hear from other family members at face value, I don't think you're missing much if they don't like you. But that's just me.
posted by kat518 at 6:36 AM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
A dramatic family demands all the attention for itself. No one is immune, but someone has to stop feeding the fire. Turn inward towards yourself, or turn away to more worthy matters, either way, but what you can do is stop making your adult life about your family. You can't revel in the feeling of being wronged while setting boundaries. The problem here for you feeling better is you're still in it. Grow the rest of your life, and the disengagement happens naturally. Along the way, your feelings of being tormented and controlled and gossiped about will fade.
posted by RJ Reynolds at 7:29 AM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by RJ Reynolds at 7:29 AM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
There's a lot of good advice above.
I moved from the UK to the US when I turned 24. It wasn't until I left that I realized the incredibly damaging affect some of my family had on me. My sister spent my entire life telling me I wasn't the sister she wanted, mocked everything I ever did, made me the butt of jokes. My mother destroyed my self esteem by criticizing me always.
I know you can't move yet, but you have to cut down your contact with them. It's been 6 years and I'm SO much happier. I'm confident, I feel loved and cared for by those I feel deserve to be in my life. We do not HAVE to be close to our families if they damage us. You deserve to be happy.
posted by shesbenevolent at 7:33 AM on October 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
I moved from the UK to the US when I turned 24. It wasn't until I left that I realized the incredibly damaging affect some of my family had on me. My sister spent my entire life telling me I wasn't the sister she wanted, mocked everything I ever did, made me the butt of jokes. My mother destroyed my self esteem by criticizing me always.
I know you can't move yet, but you have to cut down your contact with them. It's been 6 years and I'm SO much happier. I'm confident, I feel loved and cared for by those I feel deserve to be in my life. We do not HAVE to be close to our families if they damage us. You deserve to be happy.
posted by shesbenevolent at 7:33 AM on October 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Best answer: You say you have to go, but you don't. I think you should go to a friend's for the holidays and let the relatives talk shit behind your back instead of right to your face. Why subject yourself to that? I used to do that with my difficult family, including all the triangulation, incorrect assumptions and bullshit that comes with it. I stopped years ago and it's wonderful.
When I finally put my foot down and exited the drama, my mother actually told me she treated me like shit because she 'didn't want to lose me'. Yeah, THAT backfired. In reality she was manipulating me for her own needs, none of which were for my good. What I'm saying is, this isn't about you as much as it about them. Their dynamic depends on having someone under them to prop up their weak egos.
If you do decide to free yourself and spend your holidays with people who actually like you for you, remember, there will be a hell of an extinction burst. The shit-talking will increase to previously unknown levels, and relatives who usually stay out will try to meddle, you know so you don't miss that ever important family connection. Stay strong. You don't have to defend yourself, it won't do any good anyway. Just work on boundaries and stick to them. When they refuse to honor your boundaries (and they will at first) think of them like little children who aren't getting their way. Let them have their tantrums, ask if they're done and if they are, continue with a new topic. Otherwise, tell them the convo is over and hang up the phone or leave the room or the house. And after a short time, the crescendo will die down. They'll have to find a new punching bag, and it won't be you.
Your sister is triggering me just reading her passive aggressive crap. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she's married with young kids and totally stuck in her own world where anything different is suspect and should be pitied. That's HER problem, not yours. If she pushes you, tell her what you require in a relationship with her, if she can comply, fine. (She won't. I'm sorry.) Tell her you hope one day she is able to be a loving sister and until then you wish her well. Then you walk away. And hopefully in a few years she wakes up and reaches out. If she doesn't, at least you haven't allowed yourself to be abused all that time.
Take your life back from these assholes!
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 8:41 AM on October 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
When I finally put my foot down and exited the drama, my mother actually told me she treated me like shit because she 'didn't want to lose me'. Yeah, THAT backfired. In reality she was manipulating me for her own needs, none of which were for my good. What I'm saying is, this isn't about you as much as it about them. Their dynamic depends on having someone under them to prop up their weak egos.
If you do decide to free yourself and spend your holidays with people who actually like you for you, remember, there will be a hell of an extinction burst. The shit-talking will increase to previously unknown levels, and relatives who usually stay out will try to meddle, you know so you don't miss that ever important family connection. Stay strong. You don't have to defend yourself, it won't do any good anyway. Just work on boundaries and stick to them. When they refuse to honor your boundaries (and they will at first) think of them like little children who aren't getting their way. Let them have their tantrums, ask if they're done and if they are, continue with a new topic. Otherwise, tell them the convo is over and hang up the phone or leave the room or the house. And after a short time, the crescendo will die down. They'll have to find a new punching bag, and it won't be you.
Your sister is triggering me just reading her passive aggressive crap. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that she's married with young kids and totally stuck in her own world where anything different is suspect and should be pitied. That's HER problem, not yours. If she pushes you, tell her what you require in a relationship with her, if she can comply, fine. (She won't. I'm sorry.) Tell her you hope one day she is able to be a loving sister and until then you wish her well. Then you walk away. And hopefully in a few years she wakes up and reaches out. If she doesn't, at least you haven't allowed yourself to be abused all that time.
Take your life back from these assholes!
posted by RichardHenryYarbo at 8:41 AM on October 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
HOW do I get myself not to care in the moment after someone insults me? It is a lot of emotional labor to mediate being triggered.
This isn't a way out of emotional labour, but to feel less personally offended, try to think through why she might feel the way she does, and what it might be like to feel that way. Then it's easier to distance yourself from the insult, and rid it of the feeling of truth. (Like you can then go, "that's not an accusation that's grounded in valid criticism, or something I need to personally take on; it's Anne speaking from an Anne-at-age-10 place". Or "that's not really a valid condemnation of my life, it's Anne defending her choices".) Then it's easier to step outside of the feeling of being wounded, and assert those boundaries.
(It's certainly not less work; if anything, it's more of it, and it goes beyond the interaction in the moment. Probably better to do this not right in the moment. But it does help, ime.)
Another thing you could do to create distance is switch perspectives, in the moment. Sort of "step outside" the emotional dynamic, and observe it instead, in a sort of "cool" way, as if it had nothing to do with you - as if it were a scene from a play and your sister were a character. Instead of being pulled in, notice her posture, gestures, tone of voice.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:25 AM on October 27, 2015
This isn't a way out of emotional labour, but to feel less personally offended, try to think through why she might feel the way she does, and what it might be like to feel that way. Then it's easier to distance yourself from the insult, and rid it of the feeling of truth. (Like you can then go, "that's not an accusation that's grounded in valid criticism, or something I need to personally take on; it's Anne speaking from an Anne-at-age-10 place". Or "that's not really a valid condemnation of my life, it's Anne defending her choices".) Then it's easier to step outside of the feeling of being wounded, and assert those boundaries.
(It's certainly not less work; if anything, it's more of it, and it goes beyond the interaction in the moment. Probably better to do this not right in the moment. But it does help, ime.)
Another thing you could do to create distance is switch perspectives, in the moment. Sort of "step outside" the emotional dynamic, and observe it instead, in a sort of "cool" way, as if it had nothing to do with you - as if it were a scene from a play and your sister were a character. Instead of being pulled in, notice her posture, gestures, tone of voice.
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:25 AM on October 27, 2015
If you don't want to go no contact with your family because of the drama it would cause, just realize that by continuing to see them, there's still drama, you just don't have any agency in creating it.
Saying no to manipulative horrible people feels really, really great.
posted by Automocar at 10:23 AM on October 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
Saying no to manipulative horrible people feels really, really great.
posted by Automocar at 10:23 AM on October 27, 2015 [13 favorites]
You do not have to see these people unless you live with them, or are depending on them some way. No, you do not have to take calls, do not have to go to dinner, do not have to do the holidays. No you do not. You can not fix them, thay need to collapse inwardly into their inbred pit of social pukery, and die of boredom from it. Don't be their object, their whipping person. Listen to phone messages and read texts on Sunday night. Plan your week, leave them out of your plans. Enjoy happiness, without their extroverted depression. They seem to project all their problems onto you.
posted by Oyéah at 11:19 AM on October 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 11:19 AM on October 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
If you are determined to go, treat it like an endurance test. Set a goal for yourself that gives you both breaks and rewards. Get there at the last possible minute and leave at the earliest possible minute. If you bring food, bring it in disposable containers so you can leave it behind. Or bring ice or drinks instead. Excuse yourself to the bathroom, or to "check something in your car" or "go check on the kids" as often as necessary. Have something nice planned for after; movie with boyfriend, walk outdoors, concert, anything that you can look forward to.
One friend I have on Twitter has a special Twitter account just for all the insane stuff she has to put up with at her inlaws that she hates. It's hilarious but damn, are they awful. They are tech-ignorant enough not to know what she's up to. Possibly you could write stuff down during your breaks if that helps you cope.
If you are open to not going to events (which is not the same as No Contact):
How local is the family...local enough to come over to your house to check if you say you're sick? To run into at the supermarket? Or just in the same state?
If you are in the same small town, then you need to just get out of town for an invented reason.
If you are a distance away, just invent an illness or a work day or friend emergency. Car trouble. All good reasons not to make it.
posted by emjaybee at 12:31 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
One friend I have on Twitter has a special Twitter account just for all the insane stuff she has to put up with at her inlaws that she hates. It's hilarious but damn, are they awful. They are tech-ignorant enough not to know what she's up to. Possibly you could write stuff down during your breaks if that helps you cope.
If you are open to not going to events (which is not the same as No Contact):
How local is the family...local enough to come over to your house to check if you say you're sick? To run into at the supermarket? Or just in the same state?
If you are in the same small town, then you need to just get out of town for an invented reason.
If you are a distance away, just invent an illness or a work day or friend emergency. Car trouble. All good reasons not to make it.
posted by emjaybee at 12:31 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: You have a group of people who have a vested interest in believing something that is not true. For some fairly complex reasons they have constructed a role for you and committed themselves to being oblivious to any information that contradicts their belief.
What this means is that, in effect, you have a secret identity. They believe you are Clark Kent, an ineffectual fellow who wears glasses and is prone to nosebleeds and fails to keep up with the rest of the family and keeps not arriving until after the day has been saved, when in fact you are actually Superman.
Now, you do NOT want to divulge your secret identity. You've tried that and they have laughed at you for believing that you can fly and told you that you are deluded. You want to protect your secret identity instead.
So when your sister says, "Of course you're incapable of making friends of your own," you just look quietly sorrowful and nod. You may think about the several friends you have made of whom she knows nothing, but you also make a mental note: it seems that your sister is afraid that she herself is incapable of making friends...
And when your uncle refers to, ".. the type of boyfriends that Beethoven's Sith ends up with..." you look quietly sorrowful and nod, and wonder if his criticism of your boyfriends is triggered by shame for not having a more alpha partner of his own, or an inability to connect at all with his own significant others, or if in fact he actually has the hots for for guys in the demographic that you end up with. Or maybe he's just jealous that they are unemployed and have free time when he is working hours in a dead end job and yet has no spending money because it all goes to service his monstrous consumer debt. Oh to be young and carefree again!
You can also make a game of keeping score. First predict who will say what: The good looking cousin will make comments about how you have anorexia and must be unhealthy. The not hugely bright nephew will remind people about that certain incident in the past which made you look dumb and your father will make references to your income. Your grandmother will make remarks about your unstable mental health.
Then when you go to Christmas Dinner keep a scratch pad beside you and make a tally mark every time one of them makes the kind of remark that you predicted. The lower half of the sheet can be used to make cryptic note of anything you didn't predict, so you can use it to play the same game with different predictions at New Years Dinner.
Every time one of your predictions come true you give yourself a point. If you make it to a full twenty points your reward is an excellent Chinese dinner, but each individual point is also worth a mince tart reward, or a Magic the Gathering Card. However, cheating, and enticing them to make their remarks is no fair.
The thing about having a secret identity is that the harder they say one thing about you - for example that you are Stupid the more it actually means that you are Smart. If someone says that you are unoriginal, it means that they have noticed that you are creative and they are threatened by it. If someone tells you that you don't love them enough, what it means frequently is that you have been acting too loving towards them, and that they know they don't deserve it, so they now believe that your affectionate behaviour can be extorted from you, undeserved and they are trying to extort it.
It is very likely that your sister's unstated grievance is the fact that she has done something wrong to you - likely slid back into being malicious, from force of habit, and rather than feel guilty it is much more comfortable for her to feel wronged. Since she's not bringing a whole lot of positive joy into your life, it is helpful for her to be drawing back from you right now and until she stops being malicious.
It may also be helpful to watch them and try to figure out what it is that they are feeling anxious about. If your dad criticizes the way you spend money, then you can examine the possibility that he is feeling anxious about money right now in his own life.
A chunk of why they are critical of your boyfriends could actually be that they are afraid to lose you and are trying to devalue them in your eyes in order that you will value them more. So again, if somebody mentions "Beethoven's Sith's boyfriend the failed musician!" you can make a mental note that whoever said it is secretly or unconsciously wishing to be closer to you. That doesn't mean that they are somebody that it is comfortable or wise to get close to. But consider things from this perspective. The fact is that they would miss you if you dodge out of the Festive gatherings. They would retaliate because they don't want to lose you. If they wanted to lose you they would never object to you creeping away quietly.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:27 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
What this means is that, in effect, you have a secret identity. They believe you are Clark Kent, an ineffectual fellow who wears glasses and is prone to nosebleeds and fails to keep up with the rest of the family and keeps not arriving until after the day has been saved, when in fact you are actually Superman.
Now, you do NOT want to divulge your secret identity. You've tried that and they have laughed at you for believing that you can fly and told you that you are deluded. You want to protect your secret identity instead.
So when your sister says, "Of course you're incapable of making friends of your own," you just look quietly sorrowful and nod. You may think about the several friends you have made of whom she knows nothing, but you also make a mental note: it seems that your sister is afraid that she herself is incapable of making friends...
And when your uncle refers to, ".. the type of boyfriends that Beethoven's Sith ends up with..." you look quietly sorrowful and nod, and wonder if his criticism of your boyfriends is triggered by shame for not having a more alpha partner of his own, or an inability to connect at all with his own significant others, or if in fact he actually has the hots for for guys in the demographic that you end up with. Or maybe he's just jealous that they are unemployed and have free time when he is working hours in a dead end job and yet has no spending money because it all goes to service his monstrous consumer debt. Oh to be young and carefree again!
You can also make a game of keeping score. First predict who will say what: The good looking cousin will make comments about how you have anorexia and must be unhealthy. The not hugely bright nephew will remind people about that certain incident in the past which made you look dumb and your father will make references to your income. Your grandmother will make remarks about your unstable mental health.
Then when you go to Christmas Dinner keep a scratch pad beside you and make a tally mark every time one of them makes the kind of remark that you predicted. The lower half of the sheet can be used to make cryptic note of anything you didn't predict, so you can use it to play the same game with different predictions at New Years Dinner.
Every time one of your predictions come true you give yourself a point. If you make it to a full twenty points your reward is an excellent Chinese dinner, but each individual point is also worth a mince tart reward, or a Magic the Gathering Card. However, cheating, and enticing them to make their remarks is no fair.
The thing about having a secret identity is that the harder they say one thing about you - for example that you are Stupid the more it actually means that you are Smart. If someone says that you are unoriginal, it means that they have noticed that you are creative and they are threatened by it. If someone tells you that you don't love them enough, what it means frequently is that you have been acting too loving towards them, and that they know they don't deserve it, so they now believe that your affectionate behaviour can be extorted from you, undeserved and they are trying to extort it.
It is very likely that your sister's unstated grievance is the fact that she has done something wrong to you - likely slid back into being malicious, from force of habit, and rather than feel guilty it is much more comfortable for her to feel wronged. Since she's not bringing a whole lot of positive joy into your life, it is helpful for her to be drawing back from you right now and until she stops being malicious.
It may also be helpful to watch them and try to figure out what it is that they are feeling anxious about. If your dad criticizes the way you spend money, then you can examine the possibility that he is feeling anxious about money right now in his own life.
A chunk of why they are critical of your boyfriends could actually be that they are afraid to lose you and are trying to devalue them in your eyes in order that you will value them more. So again, if somebody mentions "Beethoven's Sith's boyfriend the failed musician!" you can make a mental note that whoever said it is secretly or unconsciously wishing to be closer to you. That doesn't mean that they are somebody that it is comfortable or wise to get close to. But consider things from this perspective. The fact is that they would miss you if you dodge out of the Festive gatherings. They would retaliate because they don't want to lose you. If they wanted to lose you they would never object to you creeping away quietly.
posted by Jane the Brown at 1:27 PM on October 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
I do have to be around them or it will be even worse
Er, how? If you're not around them, they can say and do whatever they like and it doesn't matter.
Seriously, allowing people like this access to you and your life just gives them more ammunition. Spend your time on people who love and care for you, and on doing things that make you feel good about yourself. In short, make them irrelevant.
posted by rpfields at 2:18 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Er, how? If you're not around them, they can say and do whatever they like and it doesn't matter.
Seriously, allowing people like this access to you and your life just gives them more ammunition. Spend your time on people who love and care for you, and on doing things that make you feel good about yourself. In short, make them irrelevant.
posted by rpfields at 2:18 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fact is that they would miss you if you dodge out of the Festive gatherings. They would retaliate because they don't want to lose you. If they wanted to lose you they would never object to you creeping away quietly.
The person who shouted the loudest about me leaving him was the worst person I have ever known in my life. He was abusive, and while I understand that I caused him pain and that he did not want me to leave, he also gave me no choice. I could leave or I could be treated poorly by him for the rest of my life. Of course I left. Of course I have no interest in ever seeing him again.
A lot of people are advising you to just walk away from your family, and while I see where they are coming from, your question makes it clear that you aren't ready for that. Perhaps someday you will be, but that day is not now. And that is completely and totally fine. You know your own situation much better than we do.
However, do not guilt trip yourself into spending time with people who don't seem at all invested in your happiness. You are not a toy that will be "lost" to them if you stop seeing these toxic individuals. You are a person with agency. If you leave, they will not be "losing" you. You will be choosing to be done. Frankly, their feelings and thoughts about this loss should not even be in your calculus. Your feelings are certainly not a part of theirs.
posted by sockermom at 4:54 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The person who shouted the loudest about me leaving him was the worst person I have ever known in my life. He was abusive, and while I understand that I caused him pain and that he did not want me to leave, he also gave me no choice. I could leave or I could be treated poorly by him for the rest of my life. Of course I left. Of course I have no interest in ever seeing him again.
A lot of people are advising you to just walk away from your family, and while I see where they are coming from, your question makes it clear that you aren't ready for that. Perhaps someday you will be, but that day is not now. And that is completely and totally fine. You know your own situation much better than we do.
However, do not guilt trip yourself into spending time with people who don't seem at all invested in your happiness. You are not a toy that will be "lost" to them if you stop seeing these toxic individuals. You are a person with agency. If you leave, they will not be "losing" you. You will be choosing to be done. Frankly, their feelings and thoughts about this loss should not even be in your calculus. Your feelings are certainly not a part of theirs.
posted by sockermom at 4:54 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Best answer: Stop trying to convince them that you aren't who they seem to think you are. Don't argue or plead your case or anything. It won't work, all it will do it make you more anxious, so try a different approach.
Can you sort of deflect and change the subject when your sister says something snotty? Like:
SISTER: You're so flighty/ have no friends of your own/ boycrazy, blah blah blah...
YOU: (deadpan) Whatever you say. Have you read any good books lately?
COUSIN: OMG Sister said this thing about you! ::gossip gossip gossip::
YOU: You'd have to talk to her about that. Did you see The Martian? I heard it was great!
If your sister keeps making snotty, sarcastic comments, you could try:
- ignoring the comments, like they weren't even uttered. If you're at the table and she says something rude, don't respond. Turn to one of the younger cousins and ask them how they are, strike up a conversation with someone else, something like that.
She wants to provoke you: do not let her.
- Do the always-useful "...wow." Sister says something nasty. You stare at her for a beat, then just say "...wow," and then change the subject, start talking to someone else, etc.
- Calmly but firmly tell her to stop making rude comments. SISTER: "Blah blah blah you have no friends blah." YOU: "Please stop saying rude things to me." CALMLY. If she gets pissy, which she probably will, walk away. If she wants to have a hissyfit about it, that's not your problem, and if you remain calm and polite and reasonable, then her behavior will only reflect poorly on her.
- If she is determined to be confrontational/sarcastic/insulting, leave. You don't have to make up a reason why! Tell your sister and the rest of the guests that, if Sister continues to be rude to you and your partner, you will leave. Again, calmly. And is she keeps it up, then you leave. You don't have to storm out in tears, nothing dramatic -- just say a pleasant goodbye to everyone else, wish them a happy holiday, and walk out. You are not obligated to sit there and be verbally abused.
posted by sarcasticah at 5:40 PM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Can you sort of deflect and change the subject when your sister says something snotty? Like:
SISTER: You're so flighty/ have no friends of your own/ boycrazy, blah blah blah...
YOU: (deadpan) Whatever you say. Have you read any good books lately?
COUSIN: OMG Sister said this thing about you! ::gossip gossip gossip::
YOU: You'd have to talk to her about that. Did you see The Martian? I heard it was great!
If your sister keeps making snotty, sarcastic comments, you could try:
- ignoring the comments, like they weren't even uttered. If you're at the table and she says something rude, don't respond. Turn to one of the younger cousins and ask them how they are, strike up a conversation with someone else, something like that.
She wants to provoke you: do not let her.
- Do the always-useful "...wow." Sister says something nasty. You stare at her for a beat, then just say "...wow," and then change the subject, start talking to someone else, etc.
- Calmly but firmly tell her to stop making rude comments. SISTER: "Blah blah blah you have no friends blah." YOU: "Please stop saying rude things to me." CALMLY. If she gets pissy, which she probably will, walk away. If she wants to have a hissyfit about it, that's not your problem, and if you remain calm and polite and reasonable, then her behavior will only reflect poorly on her.
- If she is determined to be confrontational/sarcastic/insulting, leave. You don't have to make up a reason why! Tell your sister and the rest of the guests that, if Sister continues to be rude to you and your partner, you will leave. Again, calmly. And is she keeps it up, then you leave. You don't have to storm out in tears, nothing dramatic -- just say a pleasant goodbye to everyone else, wish them a happy holiday, and walk out. You are not obligated to sit there and be verbally abused.
posted by sarcasticah at 5:40 PM on October 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I just want to say that the descriptions you give are of people who are extremely dysfunctional and it is totally 100% okay to decide to go no contact with your family of origin. Their behavior to you sounds appalling and horrible, and it is unlikely they will ever know you or have the capacity to be intimate with you. If you do decide to try to set boundaries with them good luck because I very much doubt they have the capacity to 1) hear you 2) alter their behavior for your sake.
I hope you're extra nice to yourself. Good luck.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:01 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hope you're extra nice to yourself. Good luck.
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 11:01 PM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'll bet it's your stepmother who has the biggest pick with you. She's trying to get everyone against you and it seems to be working.
I'm in your situation only it's with my in-laws and I'm a 42-year-old woman. I live near them and they all hate me, even though I've almost killed myself bending over backwards to make everyone happy. Just got me an ulcer.
I'm reading a book called "Toxic In-laws" by Susan Forward that's helping me see through all the nonsense. I also recommend the Al-Anon main book about disengaging and taking care of yourself and letting go.
posted by Piedmont_Americana at 4:40 AM on October 28, 2015
I'm in your situation only it's with my in-laws and I'm a 42-year-old woman. I live near them and they all hate me, even though I've almost killed myself bending over backwards to make everyone happy. Just got me an ulcer.
I'm reading a book called "Toxic In-laws" by Susan Forward that's helping me see through all the nonsense. I also recommend the Al-Anon main book about disengaging and taking care of yourself and letting go.
posted by Piedmont_Americana at 4:40 AM on October 28, 2015
My brother treats me like garbage. I put up with it for years in order to avoid rocking the boat on family holidays. Now I have a rule. He gets to say mean shit once and I get to say, "That was unkind. Please stop saying things like that." If more mean shit happens, I literally leave. I don't explain or cry or yell. I don't wait until the turkey's been served or the presents opened. I just say, "I'm going home. Enjoy your turkey/presents/pie/game of Trivial Pursuit."
He caught on after a few events. Now it takes him much, much longer to say mean shit. I suspect other family members might have pressured him to be less of an asshole so that I stick around. I don't care, though. I am not required to put up with emotional abuse just to make other people feel more comfortable. I don't care if they gossip about me after I'm gone or whatever. Let them. Meanwhile, I'll be at home sipping coffee and watching tv or playing games, which is far more enjoyable than turning the other cheek for hours on end.
With other passive aggressive nonsense in my family, I use the dolphin training technique. I ignore behavior that I don't like and reward behavior I do like. If someone says something passive aggressive, I pretend I didn't hear it. This is usually much easier if I have my Kindle or my phone. If I am asked a direct question that is tinged with passive aggressive bullshit, I say, "I'm not interested in discussing that right now." If they persist, I repeat myself. If someone speaks to me nicely about anything, even something that doesn't interest me, I engage with them as a reward for acting like a human being.
And last but not least--you aren't responsible for your mother's stress.
posted by xyzzy at 6:30 AM on October 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
He caught on after a few events. Now it takes him much, much longer to say mean shit. I suspect other family members might have pressured him to be less of an asshole so that I stick around. I don't care, though. I am not required to put up with emotional abuse just to make other people feel more comfortable. I don't care if they gossip about me after I'm gone or whatever. Let them. Meanwhile, I'll be at home sipping coffee and watching tv or playing games, which is far more enjoyable than turning the other cheek for hours on end.
With other passive aggressive nonsense in my family, I use the dolphin training technique. I ignore behavior that I don't like and reward behavior I do like. If someone says something passive aggressive, I pretend I didn't hear it. This is usually much easier if I have my Kindle or my phone. If I am asked a direct question that is tinged with passive aggressive bullshit, I say, "I'm not interested in discussing that right now." If they persist, I repeat myself. If someone speaks to me nicely about anything, even something that doesn't interest me, I engage with them as a reward for acting like a human being.
And last but not least--you aren't responsible for your mother's stress.
posted by xyzzy at 6:30 AM on October 28, 2015 [10 favorites]
Response by poster: I don't know if anyone's still reading this but I'm going to employ ALL these great strategies. The problem is, I am staying with my mother due to being poor and recovering from PTSD (worth another post), and my sister (and her two small children and husband) are coming for six days over Thanksgiving.
Six days which I will spend working my retail job for as many hours as possible, and then sleeping because I will be legitimately tired. (You should have seen my boss' face when I begged him to schedule me on Black Friday).
Thank you, Metafilter!
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:55 AM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
Six days which I will spend working my retail job for as many hours as possible, and then sleeping because I will be legitimately tired. (You should have seen my boss' face when I begged him to schedule me on Black Friday).
Thank you, Metafilter!
posted by Beethoven's Sith at 10:55 AM on November 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
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And remember- you aren't going to change them, you will have to disengage a bit, and establish a new routine where you are more socially in control too.
posted by TenaciousB at 8:57 PM on October 26, 2015 [3 favorites]